Your Friday Dose of Woo: What is an "altie"? (2008 edition)

That list is awesome. I always find the "ancients new health secrets" stuff to be hilarious. If the ancients were so healthy why did they die so young of diseases we can easily cure? The fact is that the ancients didn't know any science nearly as good as we do today. They mixed some intuition with some superstition and kept doing things that appeared to work. Pigeons will do the same thing in a Skinner Box.

Despite Enemaman this list doesn't obsess on the altie obsession with constipation nearly enough :-) but then again, you mention it enough to meet the needs of the non-obsessed.

You might be an altie if you believe that 45% of people have food allergies.

You might be an altie if you keep tell people about leaky gut syndrome and how undigested proteins.are escaping into the body and hurting people.

If you spend your spare time reading a book to water, and expect this to do something other than tell you what the book says, you're an altie.

You just might be an altie if you think that a supplement causing selenium poisoning due to a 200-fold excess has nothing to do with safety and is just "a labeling issue."

Orac, you've outdone yourself, Mazeltov! The list is so long I don't have time to read it all in one sitting here at work.

There's something I've always wondered about but I don't know how to phrase it in the "you might be an altie if" format. Why do people who work in health food stores, and a lot of the customers, look so *unhealthy?*

My raw food vegetarian friend had a nasty two-week bout with the flu this season, just like everyone else. Guess the all-powerful enzymes were just feeling lazy.

You might be an altie if Classen has convinced you that vaccine-induced inflammation is responsible for an epidemic of Type 2 diabetes.

Classen proposes a new explanation for the epidemic of both insulin dependent diabetes (type 1 diabetes), which has previously been shown to be caused by vaccines and non insulin dependent diabetes (type 2 diabetes). Upon receipt of vaccines or other strong immune stimulants some individuals develop a hyperactive immune system leading to autoimmune destruction of insulin secreting cells. Other individuals produce increased cortisol, an immune suppressing hormone, to suppress the vaccine induced inflammation.
The increased cortisol leads to type 2 diabetes and metabolic syndrome. Japanese children have increased cortisol secretion following immunization compared to White children and this explains why Japanese have a relative high rate of type 2 diabetes but low rate of insulin dependent diabetes compared to Whites. The lower cortisol response attributed to type 1 diabetes and the higher cortisol response attributed to type 2 diabetes explains why type 1 diabetics are generally leaner than type 2 diabetics since elevated cortisol causes weight gain.

The current data shows that vaccines are much more dangerous than the public is lead to believe and adequate testing has never been performed even in healthy subjects to indicate that there is an overall improvement in health from immunization.

You might be an altie if Classen has convinced you that vaccine-induced inflammation is responsible for an epidemic of Type 2 diabetes.

Classen proposes a new explanation for the epidemic of both insulin dependent diabetes (type 1 diabetes), which has previously been shown to be caused by vaccines and non insulin dependent diabetes (type 2 diabetes). Upon receipt of vaccines or other strong immune stimulants some individuals develop a hyperactive immune system leading to autoimmune destruction of insulin secreting cells. Other individuals produce increased cortisol, an immune suppressing hormone, to suppress the vaccine induced inflammation.
The increased cortisol leads to type 2 diabetes and metabolic syndrome. Japanese children have increased cortisol secretion following immunization compared to White children and this explains why Japanese have a relative high rate of type 2 diabetes but low rate of insulin dependent diabetes compared to Whites. The lower cortisol response attributed to type 1 diabetes and the higher cortisol response attributed to type 2 diabetes explains why type 1 diabetics are generally leaner than type 2 diabetics since elevated cortisol causes weight gain.

The current data shows that vaccines are much more dangerous than the public is lead to believe and adequate testing has never been performed even in healthy subjects to indicate that there is an overall improvement in health from immunization.

Bad html - Classen also said:

The current data shows that vaccines are much more dangerous than the public is lead to believe and adequate testing has never been performed even in healthy subjects to indicate that there is an overall improvement in health from immunization.

You might be an Altie if you know what a vortex is.

Now now -- if you know what a vortex is, you might just be a Whovian. It all depends on what kind of vortex we're talking about. ;-)

Why do people who work in health food stores, and a lot of the customers, look so *unhealthy?*

I've noticed that, too, but I've never tried to set up a proper controlled observational study to see if that impression is really true. Nonetheless, assuming it is true that unhealthy people are overrepresented among the staff and customers of health food stores, there are a few possible explanations:
1. Frequent exposure to some or all of the products in typical health food stores (e.g. very high consumption of "probiotics") has a damaging effect on overall health, which shows up as a long list of symptoms, some of which are obvious to the casual observer. ("health foods cause disease")
2. Chronically unhealthy people are attracted to the health food industry because they respond poorly (in a physiological sense) to drugs designed to deal with many chronic problems. Their symptoms do not improve, or improve only a small amount, or their expectations of improvement are far removed from reality, on standard therapies, so they try "supplements" and the like out of desperation. This tendency may be reinforced, and lead to a greater association with the industry (e.g. employement) if the staff seem friendly and knowledgable, and other social factors come into play. ("chronic illness causes consumption of supplements")
3. The association is spurious. Customers and staff of health food stores are no more or less healthy than any representative sample of the general population. ("null hypothesis")

Personally, I lean towards #2 as the most likely explanation, with the null hypothesis closely behind.

***

If you explain to all around you the wonders of the perfect food you've discovered, and that perfect food is either a single item (such as apples) or a single species (such as all edible products derived from wheat), you just might be an altie.

If you hate processed food, but eat pickles, pasta, bread, and cheese, you just might be an altie.

If you've ever tried to feed a cat an all-vegetarian diet, you just might be an altie (and cruel to animals, too).

You might just be an altie if you claim autism, adhd etc are just "labels" by the medical establishment and you can heal them with a trademarked altie treatment that cost you hundreds to get a legitimate seeming diploma.

Yeah, that'll show 'em! How dare those people have a lack of education and ability to think critically?! You've sure helped them all immensely by making fun of their poorly-founded beliefs. Well done!

I feel confident in saying that the entire alternative medicine industry will disappear overnight as a result of this post.

Oh, and since facts and accuracy are so important to you, you might want to take the word 'Respectful' out of your blog title. You know, just so you have all the facts presented correctly. Go Orac!

You might be an altie if you think water fluoridation is part of a conspiracy.

"Mandrake, have you ever seen a commie drink water ..."

You might be an altie if you claim mercury exposure in nanogram quantities is dangerous while eating a Genisoy bar.

Orac, off topic but I've been meaning to ask you if you might want to consider a career change:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/inkvision/41659076/

Love you blog by the way--if ever I've seen sexy writing, it's by you. You've got a crushed-out groupie here! And no, I am not john best.

If you believe that conducting "science based not on matter but on a new metaphysic and the primacy of conscious [can] solve all the paradoxes of quantum physics", you just might be an altie

If *you* breezed through measles as a kid and thus conclude the disease is harmless, you're an altie with an ego the size of Alaska.

curlyfries,
Faced with such willful ignorance, sometimes there's nothing else to do but point and laugh. If it offends you, you certainly don't have to stick around and read it.

Thank you Brummell! All your ideas make sense. Plus, eating is a whole lot easier than exercising and getting fit (if folks are buying into the marketing of these products as cure-alls and a simplistic "one size fits all" solutionn to health problems).

If you believe that manipulating an uncomplaining right shoulder will cure a sore left shoulder, then you're an altie.

True story:

About 20 years ago I was having a coffee in a quiet cafe one afternoon. At the next table a middle-aged chiropractor was giving advice to a young chiropractor.

He told him to listen to his patients, to be sympathetic, to have good bedside manner. Then he told a story about how the laying on of hands passed down the chiropractic mana through the generations, like the apostolic power of a Catholic bishop.

There was an old chiropractor in my county, "Dr." Olsen, who had been manipulated by D.D. Palmer himself, and the middle-aged chiropractor had had the privilege of being manipulatd by Olsen.

By that time, Olsen was senile. Middle-aged chiro had a sore shoulder. "Dr. Olsen got confused and manipulated the wrong shoulder. But you know, I felt better anyway!"

If you think that taking your child to a "measles party" is safer than getting her a measles vaccination, you just may be an altie.

If you believe homeopathy works because it's "just like how people can get reactions to minute amounts of peanuts," you might be an altie. Or an idiot. Or both. (If you winced at that, you might not be an altie or an idiot.)

If you believe that hyperbaric treatment will "cure" a ten year old with cerebral palsy, you might be an altie. If you meet an adult with cerebral palsy and try to convince them to try it, you are not only a gigantic altie, but also an insensitive clod.

If you simultaneously tell people that "natural" things can't be harmful and complain about your flower garden making you sneeze, you might be an altie.

If you actually go to a cash-up-front alt.therapy practitioner when you have unlimited access to your provincial taxpayer-funded healthcare system, you're not only an altie, but you're a Canadian and a fool to boot.

If you know anyone who's had shingles, or even know of the existence of shingles, and you still think the chicken pox vaccination is unnecessary because chicken pox is "harmless," you might be an altie.

You might want to update your list to include mention of the Alties mentioned in this one: http://scienceblogs.com/aetiology/2008/04/raw_milk_demand_increases_des…

Although, likely they are subsumed under one or another of your items.

You might be an Altie if you know what a vortex is.

Regions of quantized flux in type II superconductors?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrikosov_vortex

You might be an altie if you think that obtaining "informed consent" does not include disclosing the utter lack of scientific plausibility of your chosen method.

People might accuse me of being an "altie" for respecting the results of legitimate Chinese herbal medicine. But if you ask a legit herbalist of that tradition what to take for a headache - they hand you a bottle of asprin. When someone admits there are other approaches that in specific cases are superior to their own, then I know that I'm dealing with an ethical practitioner.

Of course, that doesn't speak to it's effectiveness - but it does pretty much rule out classic quackery.

As for naturapathic medicine, I know ritual magic when I see it. Even granting the possibility that a ritual magician might achieve something with such an approach, - I'm skeptical that it can be reduced to a recipe and mass produced. I'm sure that it violates some natural law regarding the Conservation of Woo.

If you believe that bloodroot paste makes a great moisturizer, you just might be an altie.

If you emphasize the seperation between syllables in the word disease, you just might be an altie.

If you believe in life force/spirit/energy, you just might be an altie.

If you are aware that cyanide, sanguinarine, arsenic and strychnine are all naturally occuring, and still argue that everything 'natural' is safe and healthy, you are very probably an altie.

If you believe that a molecule can be divided into infinitely small pieces, you might be an altie.

If you believe that homeopathy works, you just might be bad at chemistry.

Hmm, I'm sure if I give it some thought I can come up with more...

- You might be an altie if you claim Peter Duesberg is the world's biggest AIDS expert.

- You might be an altie if you believe peer review is just a way to stimulate groupthink amongst scientists.

If willful ignorance is to be derided, I will be sure to point and laugh at you, DanioPhD.

I'm not offended, just annoyed. Your suggestion of 'if you don't like it - leave' is just further evidence of the abhorrent attitude that I was complaining about in the first place, in that it sounds rather close-minded to criticism; ironic since that quality is one being derided.

How, exactly, does ridiculing people with belief in alternative therapies help matters? I'm sure it makes you all feel superior and smug - good for you - but it only serves to deepen the divide, especially when written in a blog that claims to be 'respectful'. That, my friends, is twisted.

curlyfries:

Yeah, that'll show 'em! How dare those people have a lack of education and ability to think critically?! You've sure helped them all immensely by making fun of their poorly-founded beliefs. Well done!
I feel confident in saying that the entire alternative medicine industry will disappear overnight as a result of this post.
Oh, and since facts and accuracy are so important to you, you might want to take the word 'Respectful' out of your blog title. You know, just so you have all the facts presented correctly. Go Orac!

You might be an altie if you act like pointing out willful ignorance is an inexcusable crime.

You're DEFINITELY an altie if you treat ridiculing the willfully ignorant as a crime against humanity, then turn around and accuse the entire medical profession of conspiring to poison children.

Your suggestion of 'if you don't like it - leave' is just further evidence of the abhorrent attitude that I was complaining about in the first place, in that it sounds rather close-minded to criticism

curlyfries, what exactly is your 'criticism'? That we're all in here having a laugh at the undeniably nutty beliefs that an undeniably unfunny number of people seem to subscribe to, rather than going out amongst them and attempting to enlighten them? If so, I can assure you that most of the regular commenters on this blog, as well as our illustrious host, are working daily to promote scientific rationalism and an appreciation of evidence-based medicine. We do this through our work, through community outreach, advocacy, blogging and other means of popularizing science and making it accessible to laypeople. We consider it a serious undertaking, given that belief in pseudoscience and alternative medicine is rampant and often dangerous. Sometimes, though, open ridicule works where all the patient tolerance and understanding in the world can utterly fail to get the message across.

If you have genuine criticisms regarding any of the above altie items, then by all means, let us have them. If you're just here to whine about how mean it is for us to flaunt our science literacy, I don't have the power to compel you to stop, nor do I want to. It's just a rather tiresome conversation to have, particularly in contrast with how fun it is to trash all this stupid woo, so I don't expect you'll get many takers. Furthermore, if you find our attitude so 'abhorrent' I can't see why you'd want to stay and expose yourself to it. It's your call entirely, though.

How, exactly, does ridiculing people with belief in alternative therapies help matters? I'm sure it makes you all feel superior and smug - good for you - but it only serves to deepen the divide, especially when written in a blog that claims to be 'respectful'. That, my friends, is twisted.

Yes, yes, clearly we need to frame our absolute scorn for pseudoscientific lunacy in a way that conveys our respect for the loons' abilities to 'think outside the box'. FAIL.

If willful ignorance is to be derided, I will be sure to point and laugh at you, DanioPhD.

For the record I was referring to the items on the list as being representative of willful ignorance, not you. And, if you are charging me with some form of willful ignorance, please justify your claims with evidence.

If you claim mercury is dangerous in nanogram qualities while eating a Genisoy bar, you might be an altie.

Or if you're relaxing in a swimming pool. Works either way.

"please justify your claims with evidence"
You ought to know by now that requests for evidence to trolls is like what crucifixes are to vampires.

As Gordon Ramsay says "Fuck me" - that treatise must have taken ages to pen. Anyone for real work?

I wrote yesterday

"Orac protested

"As for how I find the time, I addressed that a really long time ago."

and linked to another lenghty (no doubt time consuming) tract.

Are you Ben Goldacre in disguise?

http://www.slingshotpublications.com/dwarfs.html "

Now we have the answer - you ARE Ben Goldacre (or he is you)

107 is mostly a duplicate.

If you complain about doctors because 'you never get better' but have been going to the same (Nutritionist, Chiropractor, Accupuncturist, etc) every other week for YEARS for the same problem, and still claim you are getting better... An altie is you.

If you have the audacity to give any stranger unsolicited medical advice... You're just an asshole.

"If you believe that a molecule can be divided into infinitely small pieces"
That's a new one on me.

Not a single item on the list applies to me - except that my husband makes Kambucha tea! So we must be alties. What've you got against that stuff? Apart from the taste I mean... I didn't know it was supposed by anybody to DO anything?

You ought to know by now that requests for evidence to trolls is like what crucifixes are to vampires.

Indeed, Laser Potato, you have cottoned on to my nefarious plan to drive your circularly julienned and deep-fried counterpart from our midst.

As an aside, I think it would be great fun to actually make curly fries using a laser.

Cruelly mocking woo, experimenting on innocent spuds--is there no end to my depravity?

I have a friend who believes in homeopathy. I tried to walk him through the argument just how successive dilutions works. If you have ten molecules, and you dilute one in ten with water, how many molecules do you have? Eventually it becomes a game of probabilities. His response: "But you can never have just TEN!" It was at that point that I gave up trying to argue the point with him.

If you claim that all of modern science is a vast Jewish conspiracy, you might be an altie, you're surely an anti-semitic nutcase, and there's a regrettably high chance you're an elected official in the South.

If your explanation for any medical issue involves "demons" "thetans" any other variety of unobservable supernatural mischief-makers, or a vast global conspiracy, you might be an altie.

If your explanation for any medical issue makes as much or more sense when your name for the cause is replaced with any of the above, "leprechauns", "The Illuminati" or "underpants gnomes", you might be an altie.

If your sole source of evidence for your claims is sworn testimony from the voices in your head, you might be an altie, and you should be checked for schizophrenia.

If you continue to claim that China had zero cases of autism until after 1999, after being presented with studies of autistics in China from the 1980's, you might be an altie.

ilikesubpoenas,

I liken your reading comprehension to that of tuber boiled in oil. If you had read this post, you would have known that the core of this list was taken from a usenet group, and Orac's been adding items from itself and others yearly.

As Gordon Ramsay says "Fuck me" - that treatise must have taken ages to pen. Anyone for real work?

My goodness, you are incredibly obtuse. Last year's version was around 123 items long. This year's edition is around 170 items long. All I did was to take the items suggested since last year, add them to this post, and update the introduction (not to mention add a couple of items of my own). It took me maybe a half hour last night, half of which was spent cutting and pasting text for the new entries and formatting them properly. In fact, the reason I chose this week to post this instead of writing is because I'm off to San Diego for the AACR Meeting tomorrow. I intentionally did this post today because it wouldn't take me much time to do. (To the rest of my readers: Sorry for being lazy.)

Are you Ben Goldacre in disguise?

http://www.slingshotpublications.com/dwarfs.html

Now we have the answer - you ARE Ben Goldacre (or he is you)

Ah, yes, the old "pharm shill" gambit. Except that I've seen no evidence that Ben is a pharma shill.

The appearance of this particular smear is quite predictable; alties very often use the pharma shill gambit. Perhaps I'll add that one to the list this weekend if I get the chance.

Waaaaaaait... Orac is going to be gone? How will I feed my brand spanking new obsession? I feel faint.

You might be an altie if you believe eating soy makes children gay.

If you think the key to good health is allowing your body to work with, not against Nature -- and yet you take enough daily vitamin/mineral supplements to choke a horse ... then you might be an altie.

If you observe that there is little to no internal critique between alternative medicine practitioners -- despite the fact that many of their therapies and theories completely contradict each other -- and see it as a positive, healthy, nonjudgmental, and open way to do science as it should be done ... then you might be an altie.

Waaaaaaait... Orac is going to be gone? How will I feed my brand spanking new obsession? I feel faint.

Fear not. I usually blog from conferences--especially if there's interesting science to write about. Just not as often. (Unless, of course, the meeting is boring, in which case my output may actually increase. It's impossible to predict.)

Liesl:
You might be an altie if you believe eating soy makes children gay.

...Especially if you continue to insist on this after being shown statistics indicating no greater incidence of homosexuality in Asian countries where soy is more common in the diet.

...And bonus points if you attribute said statistics to a world-spanning "gay agenda" to sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids.

Re. 109, you might want "hypocrite", since a "hippocrate" is most plausibly interpreted as a "doctor". And I know that's not what you mean to be saying.

The original was misspelled like that, Sigivald.

If you spend a lot of time worrying about or talking about "yeast",
If you regularly use the words "pharma puppet" in conversation,
If you talk about your kid's weak or almost absent immune system and then take said kid to a measles or chickenpox party,

You might be an altie.

Y'all with your fancy html skills, I envy them so!

Orac: Whew! obsession shall continue apace. That was a close one.

Phantom:
I hadn't heard the impurity part. Well, other than the impure thoughts people who are gay would clearly have. Heterosexuals wouldn't, though. Nope, nuh uh.

.... if you think that food allergies are detected by putting bits of the food in test tubes, having the suspected allergee hold the test tube in their hand while holding their arm straight out, and seeing how easy it is to push their arm down while they hold it. If it's easier then pushing their arm down while they hold nothing, they must be allergic to the food in the tube!

My aunt (who very woo) took her daughter to a chiropractor who did this to diagnose allergies. I about died laughing when she told me, and asked her how she could rule out an allergy to test tubes. Pissed her off to no end.

If you think Bird Flu is simply a piece of hype cooked up by Donald Rumsfeld in order to sell Tamiflu and that those who have died so far somehow don't count because they're in Asia, you are without doubt an altie. If you proclaim that your children will survive a pandemic because they have great immune systems and even if a vaccine was available you wouldn't let them have it, you are deluded too!

If you believe that a cranial-sacral therapist can cure you by pushing your skull bones around (despite the fact that they are fused together by solid bone), yep...you know what you are.

I know plenty of fairly smart people who have turned to naturopathy because of a series of bad experiences with doctors and medication. I can't stand behind this reaction, but I can't be too judgmental, either. Personal experience talks a lot louder than insensitive blogging doctors.
I'll agree that 97% of natural medicine is voodoo. But I also know from my experience as a student of biology that things that aren't lucrative don't get research grants. So I could see how a folk remedy might not be the top priority for testing. (How many years have people used Eccinacea, and we only got around to disproving its effectiveness, what...last year?)
I also know that pharmaceutical companies are out to make a dollar. The individual workers and board members probably want to help people, but the bottom line is the cash. It is also a fact that pharmaceutical companies put a lot of weight and incentive on both doctors and patients through advertising and perks.
So it's easy to see why people are a little disillusioned with "allopathic" medicine.
I think that by making fun of "alties", you are worrying a symptom and not the problem itself.
I think the great majority of people who are into Woo are into Woo because they feel cheated by wham-bam-thankyou-ma'am physicians who hustle them in, throw a prescription at them, shove them out the door and send them a bill for $2000, and the pharmaceutical companies that present a face to the public that is only concerned with lifestyle diseases. A lot of naturopathic doctors seem a lot more concerned about their patients, and personable.
Alright. Flame me.

I know plenty of fairly smart people who have turned to naturopathy because of a series of bad experiences with doctors and medication. I can't stand behind this reaction, but I can't be too judgmental, either. Personal experience talks a lot louder than insensitive blogging doctors.
I'll agree that 97% of natural medicine is voodoo. But I also know from my experience as a student of biology that things that aren't lucrative don't get research grants. So I could see how a folk remedy might not be the top priority for testing. (How many years have people used Eccinacea, and we only got around to disproving its effectiveness, what...last year?)
I also know that pharmaceutical companies are out to make a dollar. The individual workers and board members probably want to help people, but the bottom line is the cash. It is also a fact that pharmaceutical companies put a lot of weight and incentive on both doctors and patients through advertising and perks.
So it's easy to see why people are a little disillusioned with "allopathic" medicine.
I think that by making fun of "alties", you are worrying a symptom and not the problem itself.
I think the great majority of people who are into Woo are into Woo because they feel cheated by wham-bam-thankyou-ma'am physicians who hustle them in, throw a prescription at them, shove them out the door and send them a bill for $2000, and the pharmaceutical companies that present a face to the public that is only concerned with lifestyle diseases. To them, naturopathic doctors present a kinder face.
I also see a disturbing tendency to dismiss any criticism of pharmaceutical companies as "Woo", and will doubtless get flamed as an "Altie" because I dared suggest that like all corporations, Merck and GSK might just be in it for the shareholders and the bottom line.
Alright. Flame me.

Well, crap. I look like a dumbass. My internet connection was acting frozen so I hit submit a few too many times.
:P Please be kind and delete the last two entries.

Well, crap. I look like a dumbass. I'm sorry. My internet connection was acting frozen so I hit submit a few too many times.
:P Please be kind and delete the last two entries.

Scrabcake:

You should meet my doctors; they are, to a one, the exact opposite of the "allopathic" doctors you describe. Actually, I've rarely met doctor similar to your description. But then, that doesn't really matter, does it? it's anecdotal. Also, I don't think anyone who doesn't have their heads firmly planted up their posterior thinks that pharmaceutical companies are in operation for the betterment of mankind and are blameless. Again, it's a separate issue to whether or not "natural" medicine is woo. Frankly, it's a red herring.

@Regan's

If you spend a lot of time worrying about or talking about "yeast"

Hey, I spend a lot of time worrying about yeast and I am NOT an altie. If you cross contaminate your bread yeast and beer yeast you can get some nasty results, and then what will you do to enjoy your homemade cheese, which should only have L. acidophilus growing in it? Worrying about your kitchen fauna is hardly indicative...

For the sake of accuracy, MY homemade cheese is made with L. acidophilus (or even citric acid if I am in a hurry), but there are plenty of other good organisms which you might use in cheese making. I just don't much like most of them.

Either way, growing yeast of any strain in there is not a good plan. Yeast gets greedy, and its byproducts are not conducive in general. Though there is a lovely cheddar you can make with streaks of pasteurized stout running through it...

If you claim that everything anyone has ever said, or ever written, are simply "opinions," for which you are free to substitute your own "opinions"...

If you reject any study found on PubMed because all the researchers are somehow connected to "Big Pharma," and thus biased, but you see no reason to question studies of an alternative product which were published only on a site selling that alternative product, even though the studies were done by the site's owner who used his own customers as research subjects...

You accuse anyone who questions your claims about alternative treatments and/or products of being on the payroll of "Big Pharma"...

If you believe a foot bath can pull toxins out of your body through the soles of your feet, and you know that to be true because a blotter on which you placed your feet after you'd soaked them in the foot bath, turned colors...

If you tell diabetic senior citizens that the reason their memories are getting worse is because of "aspartame poisoning"...

If you admit (brag, actually) that you don't know anything about science, but believe that your opinions about scientific matters are just as valid as someone with a PhD. and a long career, in science...

# Or if you've ever stood on a vortex naked. Wearing crystals. Chanting.

This makes me an altie? I thought it just made me kinky. I know that was a very good night.

Reading all the references to toxins and altie cancer treatments reminds me of the story of one of my good friends, whose sister got breast cancer in her early '40s, after being taken in by a quack healer who waved around metal rods and spoke of some mysterious cancer-freeing "process" that no one could describe, explain, or even observe. My friend's sister wasted away to 75 pounds, with a stinking mass of dead tissue on her breast. She continued to insist that she was being cured -- until she died.

A lengthy article on it is here. http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/display.php?id=20927

Linda

Reading all the references to toxins and altie cancer treatments reminds me of the story of one of my good friends, whose sister got breast cancer in her early forties and was then taken in by a quack healer who waved around metal rods and spoke of some mysterious cancer-freeing "process" that no one could describe, explain, or even observe. My friend's sister wasted away to 75 pounds, with a stinking mass of dead tissue on her breast, scarcely able to breathe. She continued to insist that she was being cured -- until she died.

A lengthy article on it is here. http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/display.php?id=20927

Reading all the references to toxins and altie cancer treatments reminds me of the story of one of my good friends, whose sister got breast cancer in her early forties and was then taken in by a quack healer who waved around metal rods and spoke of some mysterious cancer-freeing "process" that no one could describe, explain, or even observe. My friend's sister wasted away to 75 pounds, with a stinking mass of dead tissue on her breast, scarcely able to breathe. She continued to insist that she was being cured -- until she died.

A lengthy article on it is here:

http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/display.php?id=20927

Um, sorry for all the multiple posts -- I kept getting messages saying "Unable to process your request."

Yikes.

Interobang, you said If you believe homeopathy works because it's "just like how people can get reactions to minute amounts of peanuts," you might be an altie. Or an idiot. Or both. That one is wrong - you might simply be ignorant of how ridiculous homeopathy actually is. It *is* hard to believe that so many people can be so stupid. Until I started reading the JREF forum, I had assumed that homeopathy was merely some variant of herbalism, with small doses.

I originally promised to update the list every year (actually, every few months), and, wouldn't you know it, it's been more than a year since the 2008 edition. An update is definitely long overdue.

Errrm, don't you mean 2007 edition?

Okay, someone want to explain the Genisoy business to me? I don't get it.

A few unworthy suggestions:

You believe in karmic justice but you want to realign it in your case...you're a doublethinking altie.

If you drink other people's urine but don't pay them to let you do it...you're a pee-brained altie.

If you've never wondered why the "memory of water" doesn't remember all the "toxins" it's encounter in billions of years...and kill you when you drink it...you're a toxic altie.

If you think pronouncing "Disease" as "Dis-Ease" is insightful...you're an illiterate altie.

If you think Deepak Chopra is wise because he's from India, but you don't know where India is...you're an ignorant altie.

If you don't realise the opposite of "skeptical" is "gullible"...you're an altie who needs a dictionary.

If you think "Ancient" is a selling point...you're a modern altie.

If you think a salt enema is natural and good but sodomy isn't...you're a fundie altie.

Raven,
In the Hannah Poling case thread, Soylent Scream said
"Sue,
did you know that one Genisoy bar tested as containing a higher concentration of mercury in it than is necessary to kill neuroblastoma cells in culture? How much higher concentration? 2X? 6X? 8X? 17X? (Parran et al., Toxicol Sci 2005; 86: 132-140)
How much higher is the ppb level of that Genisoy bar compared to the EPA allowable amount of mercury in drinking water?"
and so the meme began.

What a list!

That Chelation kid comic is dire. I hadn't seen it before.

Wow! Could you condense that into a few points, as a summary?

Also, I loved #51, and it made me think of a conversation my mom had with a pharmacist when she was buying some acetyl ether:
Pharmacist: So, what are you using the ether for?
Mom: We're gonna put few drops in a jam jar to catch insects with.
Pharmacist: (Mulls this over.) Would that work for humans, too?
Mom: Well, if you could get a large enough jar ...

If you light up a smoke after putting the supplements and organic food from Community Natural Foods in the trunk of your car you might be an altie

If you believe our unnatural modern diet is the cause of all illness and you are a vegetarian, you might be an altie.

If you decry the nutritional deficencies of processed foods and buy salty organic junk food at the the health food store, you might be an altie.

If you say doctors "just want to make money" but go to a CAM doctor who charges much more than the provincial health care plan pays doctors, who specializes in diseases (or imaginary diseases) of the rich, who plays fast and loose with the Provincial Medicare regulations, has a chelation clinic, and sells the supplements that he recommends, you are definitely an altie.

DanioPhD - glad you asked. My criticism is that in calling belief in alternative medicine 'lunacy' and 'woo', you have lost the right to point and laugh at it. You have also demonstrated a complete lack of sympathy and understanding of that mindset.

While you do have perfectly valid intellectual points, this attitude is the worst kind of smug, self-serving contempt. Perhaps one needs, as I have, direct experience in believing - then unbelieving - in alternative medicine, and a strong background in science in order to truly appreciate this point. I don't see any evidence that anyone here really understands this, least of all Orac.

I don't understand it, curly, but that's because you're not making sense.

"buy salty organic junk food at the the health food store"
Guilty! I only go to the organic food store when it seems all the grocer's are out of fresh baby spinach (baby spinach + red bell peppers + grape tomatoes + thinly-sliced red onion + carrot slices + cumbled blue cheese + basalmic vinegar = a damn good salad) and I can't resist picking up the candy.

If you engage in a lengthy debate arguing the pro-altie side, see your voluminous posts ripped to shreds by facts, and come back with "Gee, you must have lots of time on your hands", you are one frustrated altie.

"Personal experience talks a lot louder than insensitive blogging doctors."

Louder? Yes, that's often the case. More intelligible and reliable? Not so.

A few thoughts for curlyfries:

1) 'Altie' is a made up term and most of the 170 points aren't aimed at a specific person. It's only poking fun at someone if they have done this, and all the fun-poking entails is pointing out that they did it. I guess my point is that getting too upset about it suggests there's a lot of truth up there.

2) Yes, a lot of woo-bashing bloggers sound sarcastic, peeved off, arrogant and vindictive. Possibly because they are; I would be too if I thought about this stuff 24/7. But that's no reason not to listen to what they say.

3) I understand why many people choose to be skeptical of conventional medicine and desperately want to believe that there are alternatives. But understanding why someone has that point of view is not the same as agreeing with it.

4) No-one ever said scientists had to be considerate, understanding, angels with warm and fuzzy auras. They just have to be competent, objective scientists.

If you're lactose intolerant but drink a pint of raw milk a day because a website tells you that people are only allergic to pasteurized milk and raw milk will "Heal the gut," all the while getting sicker and sicker.... you're probably an altie.

If you spend

Wow! curlyfries is an altie apologist! Didn't see that one coming.

My criticism is that in calling belief in alternative medicine 'lunacy' and 'woo', you have lost the right to point and laugh at it.

Gracious me, do you have any idea how puling and pompous that sounds? Last time I checked, my rights were intact, and around these parts my disrespect is but a drop in the sloshing bucket of delicious insolence served up by our venerable host. As long as he's ok with what I post here, I don't give a detoxifying crap what you think. And, for the record, it's the alternative medicine itself that is woo--the belief in it is just sad. Believe me, I'm much harder on the purveyors of woo--the hucksters who prey on the hopes and fears of uneducated people--than on those who turn to it seeking help for their health problems.

The tone of this particular post was lighthearted and yes, scornful, of the altie world view. I don't think you'll be able to shame anyone, least of all me, into making apologies for that. Do I use a kinder, gentler tone when discussing the efficacy of Glucosamine/Chondroitin with my arthritic mother? Absolutely. Do I choose my words very carefully when asked by a neighbor in my very woo-friendly community how accurate the science was in the movie "What the $3*! do we know?"? You betcha. But on this blog, I and others can discuss our frustrations, outrage, and contempt at the disturbing preponderance of pseudoscience encroaching on our rational world, without pulling our punches. I am as grateful to Orac for providing a forum in which to vent my spleen on these topics as I am for the excellent and well-researched information he provides to his readers. You are evidently unable to appreciate the value in that, and for someone who professes a 'strong background in science', I have to say that your critical thinking skills appear as anemic as your sense of humor.

Are you familiar with Matthew Nisbet? If not, I suggest you become acquainted at once. I think you two would really hit it off.

I see, so the smug self-serving contempt is limited to this special little online hidy-hole, yet you put on the concerned, understanding face when you talk to your poor confused altie friends. How very noble of you.

I do appreciate the information that Orac puts on his blog, I just don't appreciate the contempt he displays while disseminating it. Nor do I appreciate yours, but I accept your apology nonetheless.

If you subscribe to a diet "that our species ancestors" ate consisting of leafy green vegetables you might be an altie considering the fact that no chimp ate cultivated spinach, radicchio, escarole, etc.

Cranio-Sacral Therapy scares the crap out of me! I googled it, and one website had a list of practitioners. They were all licensed massage therapists! The lone "physician" on the site was an honest to god Acupuncture Physician with an A.P Degree.

Gee, curly, didn't you start out this little sortie by saying that you wanted us to put on the concerned, understanding face when talking to poor confused alties? You have officially descended to the lowest level of odious concern trolling. Your querulous reproof is noted, and summarily dismissed.

And if you detected an apology in anything I've written to you (hint: calling you an apologist wasn't it), then I think you could have a great future as a homeopath.

Liesl:

Phantom:
I hadn't heard the impurity part. Well, other than the impure thoughts people who are gay would clearly have. Heterosexuals wouldn't, though. Nope, nuh uh.

Have you ever seen the movie Dr. Strangelove? It's a cold-war classic, about the insanity of the arms race. There's a character in it who thinks flouridation of water is a commie conspiracy, so he drinks only rainwater and grain alcohol (and apparently leaning heavily on the latter). He's the source of the "bodily fluids" remark. I like to slip a link to that in whenever making fun of conspiracy theorists, that and references to the dreaded Underpants Gnomes. :)

Phantom: Aha! I haven't seen that movie in years and years. I must rent it again.

If you subscribe to a diet "that our species ancestors" ate consisting of leafy green vegetables you might be an altie considering the fact that no chimp ate cultivated spinach, radicchio, escarole, etc.

Just to add to the confusion - I had a cat that would shove the guinea pig out of the way to get to it's snack of spring greens. And the radicchio was the first on the hit parade.

But strangely, not the guinea pig. Probably, as a long haired cat, he had enough fur in his diet as it was...

If you've tried ear candling, you may be an altie.
If you regularly get ear candling, you are probably an altie.
If you regularly get ear candling, and light shines out of your opposite ear, you are definitely an altie.

I can see that my point is beyond you, DanioPhD. You are unable to counter without resorting to name-calling, nor do you apparently have the cognitive capacity to understand a simple point. I can only assume that your PhD was of the mail-order variety.

No, I understood your (rather dull) point from your first comment. I just disagree with it entirely. And casting aspersions at other people's credentials makes you sound suspiciously like our chronic troll Sue.

Honestly, curly, why waste your penchant for manners policing here, of all places? Someone is probably telling an off-color joke at a Country Club somewhere right now, while your futile efforts are focused on us. To arms!

The caustic demeanor is cultivated by frustration and bemusement. The ideas embodied in alternative medicine are not only absurd, they are also damaging. I have had a friend lose her life because of this nonsense.

This quackery drains bank accounts, destroys families and destroys lives. It is extremely harmful. The sooner it is wiped from existence the better.

Re: #69:

Seriously, would an altie go anywhere near a Big Mac ;?)

wackyvorlon says:

If you are aware that cyanide, sanguinarine, arsenic and strychnine are all naturally occuring, and still argue that everything 'natural' is safe and healthy, you are very probably an altie.

... or you work in the food industry - (have you seen some of the things in foods free from artificial flavourings and colourings? They have a different definition of natural...)

I might have altie leanings ;-)

"you might be altie" What? No evidence-based analysis of alleged alti-ism? You are letting people make up their own minds????? Where are statistics and other rational, logical qualifiers when they are really needed?

There is a maxim in the law, regarding legal arguments, that goes something like this:

"If you can't pound the law, pound the facts; if you can't pound the facts, pound the law; and if you can't pound either, pound your opponent."

That seems to be curlyfries mindset: "I don't have a good argument here, and can't (credibly) stick up for the alties (who, let's remember, CHOSE to be alties), so I will just say everyone in science is a big meanyhead."

89. If you prefer to use the term "babies" to describe all children under the age of 10, there's an outside chance you're an altie.

Or simply a moron.

91. If you've ever screamed "won't somebody please think of the children?!", you might be an altie.

Ditto.

you might be an altie if you think that water vortexing changes normal water into special, atomically-homeopathically-vibrationally-restructured "living" water.

* each word contains its own fascinating link

I'm a bit late to the party, but...

If you think water understands intent, you might be an altie.