Thermonuclear stupid about vaccines from someone other than Jenny McCarthy

This may be the burningest stupid I've ever seen about vaccines. Maybe. It's so hard to tell given how much idiocy I've seen about vaccines.

I know, it's really, really hard to believe me when I say that what follows deserves to leap right up to the top ranks of brain-melting moronicity. After all, over the last four years, I've delved into the deepest, darkest chasms of pure anti-vaccine stupid. I've subjected myself to the incredible idiocy that is Jenny McCarthy and Kent Heckenlively. I've delved into the most vile cesspits of anti-vaccine propaganda, cesspits so full of misinformation and lies that the foul stench threatens to permeate my brain and make me stupid too. I've done all of that, all just for you. Even so, I've never come across anything quite this dumb. We're talking beyond black holes of stupid here. This is such a toxic mix of anti-vaccine lunacy and religion that I just don't know what to do with it.

Meet Theresa Deisher, Ph.D. She thinks that aborted fetal DNA in vaccines is linked to autism. She is also a hypernova throwing out enough burning stupid to vaporize a galaxy and cleanse it of all science, reason, and intelligence.

I'm going to skip the standard boilerplate rhetoric about the "autism epidemic." True, Deisher seems to accept the science that shows that thimerosal in vaccines does not cause autism. It's not because of science or reason that she appears to accept that science, however. It's because she apparently thinks something else is the cause, something that she is crusading about, something about which she drops a stinkbomb of brain-sucking stupidity over:

Today, more than 23 vaccines are contaminated by the use of aborted fetal cells. There is no law that requires that consumers be informed that some vaccines are made using aborted fetal cells and contain residual aborted fetal DNA. While newer vaccines produced using aborted fetal cells do inform consumers, in their package inserts, that the vaccines contain contaminating DNA from the cell used to produce the vaccine, they do not identify the cells as being derived from electively aborted human fetuses. (See the Varivax--chicken pox--package insert for the presence of MRC5 residual DNA.)

In other words, they tell you what is in the vaccine, but they don't fully inform you where it came from. The earliest aborted fetal cell-produced vaccines such as Meruvax (rubella) and MMR II do not even inform consumers that the vaccines contain contaminating DNA from the cell used to produce them. Furthermore, it is unconscionable that the public-health risk of injecting our children with residual contaminating human aborted fetal DNA has been ignored.

Oh, no! Not...DNA! (Cue scary music, perhaps with a Theremin and everything.) The horror! Why is it so horrible? Because it came from aborted human fetuses! Well, not really, but in Dr. Deisher's addled reasoning it did! I also have to wonder just what it is about having come from an "aborted fetal cell" that makes this DNA so powerful that it gives children autism. Maybe it's homeopathy all over again; maybe the original cell line was derived from an autistic child, and the DNA has "memory."

Maybe I should give up trying to understand this level of paranoia.

In any case, here we go again. Before I charge into some the flames of stupid burning the house of Deisher's brain down in the hope of rescuing some rationality, let me just reiterate yet again what she, like many anti-vaccinationists, is referring to. The viral stocks used to make some vaccines are grown in human cells. These cells were derived from aborted fetuses back in the 1960s and 1970s and have been propagated in cell culture continuously ever since. It's a huge difference between the famous lie of the anti-vaccine movement, parroted by Jenny McCarthy, that there are "aborted fetal parts" in vaccines. As I have pointed out, even the Roman Catholic Church, although disturbed by this fact, does not advocate foregoing vaccination for this reason. It recognizes that these cells are not fetal parts, that using them does not encourage abortion, and concludes, "There would seem to be no proper grounds for refusing immunization against dangerous contagious disease, for example, rubella, especially in light of the concern that we should all have for the health of our children, public health, and the common good" and "It should be obvious that vaccine use in these cases does not contribute directly to the practice of abortion since the reasons for having an abortion are not related to vaccine preparation." In other words, although it advocates pressing pharmaceutical companies to find ways of producing vaccines that do not require the use of these cell lines--specifically, WI-38 (isolated in 1962 from lung fibroblast cells) and MRC-5 (isolated in 1966, also from lung fibroblast cells)--it does not tell Catholics not to vaccinate because of the use of these cells.

Now, on to the stupid (well, more of the stupid; the above was pretty darned stupid in and of itself):

How could the contaminating aborted fetal DNA create problems? It creates the potential for autoimmune responses and/or inappropriate insertion into our own genomes through a process called recombination. There are groups researching the potential link between this DNA and autoimmune diseases such as juvenile (type I) diabetes, multiple sclerosis and lupus. Our organization, Sound Choice Pharmaceutical Institute, is focused on studying the quantity, characteristics and genomic recombination of the aborted fetal DNA found in many of our vaccines.

Preliminary bioinformatics research conducted at SCPI indicates that "hot spots" for DNA recombination are found in nine autism-associated genes present on the X chromosome. These nine genes are involved in nerve-cell synapse formation, central nervous system development and mitochondrial function.

Ugh. First off, this doesn't make a lot of sense, strictly from the standpoint of a temporal correlation. After all, these cell lines were derived over 40 years ago. If there was a correlation between DNA from these cells in vaccines and autism (or any other of the problems blamed on vaccines), wouldn't it have started decades before the early 1990s, which is the time anti-vaccinationists peg as the start of the vaccine-induced "autism epidemic." It also doesn't make a lot of sense from a genetic standpoint, either. The reason is simple. the genetic alterations that are associated with autism are not acquired. They are in the germline. Children have these genetic differences right from the time their parents' egg and sperm unite to form an embryo. They do not acquire them after they are born, and it's almost as improbable as homeopathy to think that somehow a tiny bit of DNA from a human cell line could somehow enter enouth cells and somehow recombine in these "hot spots" in such a way to affect the entire nervous system of the organism.

Indeed, from a strictly physical standpoint, this is pretty ridiculous. Vaccines are injected intramuscularly, and any contaminating DNA that might be present doesn't go very far. If it goes anywhere into the body, it's the muscle cells nearby, which can take up DNA in a functional form. Indeed, I know this from direct experimental experience. Back when I was a graduate student, one of our projects was to inject plasmid DNA into rat muscle and determine whether we could get reporter gene expression appropriately regulated by the promoter controlling the gene. Finally, if Dr. Deisher's saying that nanogram quantities of DNA can provoke a severe autoimmune response, she has to explain why this doesn't happen every time a person undergoes significant trauma (i.e., as bad bruise) and releases DNA from his own damaged cells. If it's because the DNA is foreign, then it doesn't understand why this doesn't happen frequently from the many viruses humans are exposed to each and every day or after a blood transfusion. Or what about childbirth? There is almost always some mixing of fetal blood with the mother's blood upon childbirth, meaning that the mother is exposed to fetal DNA from white blood cells and monocytes in the fetal blood. Why is it that mothers don't all get anti-DNA autoimmune diseases after childbirth?

Such a linkage between DNA being introduced into the body and autism or autoimmune diseases is--to put it as politely as possible--pretty freakin' improbable. No, it's not impossible, but, as they say, some data would be nice. Given the improbability of the hypothesis, in fact, a lot of data would be nice. I suspect I will be waiting a long time.

Not that that stops Dr. Deisher from confusing correlation with causation:

SCPI, a group that educates the public on the use of aborted human fetal material for drug production, warns that the MMR (measles, mumps and rubella) vaccines introduced to the US and UK in 1979 and 1988 respectively, were produced using aborted fetal cells, while previous versions were made using only animal cells. This switch coincides with what SCPI says are "dramatic" increases in the rates of regressive autism in children, in which the child's social and verbal development halts.

The stupid, it burns. In fact, I think I want to go and get a beer or two. My hope is that it will protect my neurons from the apoptosis-inducing waves of stupid that emanate from everything Dr. Deisher says about vaccines. How this woman got a PhD in molecular biology, I'll never know.

So why is Deisher making such ridiculous claims? Who is she? She describes herself on her company's website thusly:

Dr. Deisher is an internationally renowned expert in the field of adult stem cell therapies and regenerative medicine, bringing 17 years of practice in senior scientific and corporate leadership positions concerning research, discovery, production and commercialization of human therapeutics. Tracy has earned numerous prestigious honors and awards for her pioneering scientific discovery and her distinguished scientific research has resulted in 23 patents issued in her name with such illustrious biotech organizations as Amgen, where she was named Principal Scientist, ZymoGenetics, Repligen and Immunex.

Stem cells. It had to be stem cells.

I wanted to see what sort of publication this "internationally renowned expert" had generated; so I did a PubMed search. What did I find? Only 19 publications, all in low to mid-tier journals. Hardly the material of an "internationally renowned expert." She does have a number of patents, along with others, but none of them appear to be related to vaccines or stem cells. Indeed, most of them look to be gene patents, in which a gene, DNA sequences, or various homologs were patented, as biotech companies often try to do. Again, there doesn't appear to be anything there to suggest expertise in vaccines.

More interestingly, Dr. Deisher appears to be pulling an Andrew Wakefield on us:

A biotech firm has announced it will offer ethical alternatives to some of the vaccines that currently rely on the use of fetal tissue form abortions. The Seattle-based AVM Biotechnology says it will produce ethical alternatives in the fields of biotechnology, pharmaceuticals, and vaccine development.

The news gives hope to pro-life people who have been reluctant to use some vaccines because their development came as a result of the destruction of unborn children.

"We will be working to bring commercially available, morally acceptable, vaccines to the US market and to use existing technology to produce new morally certified vaccines," says Dr. Theresa Deisher, the research and development director for AVM.

AVM stands for, by the way, Ave Maria, although the surgeon in me can't help but think "arteriovenous malformation" when I see those initials.

In any case, there's nothing like having a competing set of vaccine products to motivate one to find reasons to tear down the existing vaccines by any means necessary. Moreover, lest anyone doubt that the motivations for this are purely religious rather than scientific, get a load of what Dr. Deisher has said about "tainted knowledge":

Deisher hopes to avoid even treatments developed with tainted knowledge -- knowledge derived from research using aborted fetal material, such as embryonic stem cells.

"It would be like using the research results on hypothermia from Nazi Germany that involved murdering people," she said.

Where's the Hitler Zombie when you need him?

One thing that's very clear, it's that Dr. Deisher is working from a religious viewpoint rather than a scientific one. Indeed, check out this interview with her in Celebrate Life! magazine. In it, she describes falling away from Catholicism in college because of an unnamed "traumatic experience" and then having another traumatic experience while in graduate school that brought her back to the faith. She clearly has the zeal of the "reconverted," so to speak and lambastes embryonic stem cell research while touting adult stem cell research and lamenting the evil of using those human cell lines to make vaccines.

Another thing I have to wonder is this: If Deisher is so against the use of "fetal cells" to do anything and can't abide using "tainted" knowledge, how on earth is she going to make any progress? After all, knowledge about how to isolate and manipulate adult stem cells depends upon knowledge gleaned from studying embryonic stem cells, which depends upon...well, studies of embryonic stem cells, which would be anathema to her because they are evil in her eyes. Is she going to start from scratch to figure out adult stem cells? Then there's the issue of vaccines. Dr. Deisher may be able to make vaccines by growing viruses in other cell lines besides the ones that she views as the fruits of evil, but how can she be sure that she isn't using knowledge derived from culturing cell lines derived from human fetuses.

She can't.

Not that it matters, though. Her strategy panders to the anti-vaccine movement and super-religious conservatives at the same time. Indeed, I grudgingly have to admit that it's brilliant, from an anti-vaccine PR perspective--except for the fact that the anti-vaccine movement doesn't really care if "fetal parts" are removed from vaccines because it's the vaccines they oppose. Still, it may make Dr. Deisher some money. What more could she ask for?

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"We're talking beyond black holes of stupid here."

C'mon, quit mincing words and give us a candid opinion!


[OT] The "men in black" post somehow got orphaned from its comment form during the server changeover; it's coming up as if comments have been closed.

It would be like using the research results on hypothermia from Nazi Germany that involved murdering people

Of course that as vile as the source and methods of that research on hypothermia is, it's still the best data we have on the subject and it is used. It's ridiculous to throw out valuable data just because the Nazi's who conducted the research were monsters.

The claims made by this "pharmaceutical institute" as to how "fetal" DNA could cause problems would be easy to test. I can think of several experiments right off the top. The issue is, she (they) should have run these before making any claims. All they've done is illustrated a with a major sense of urgency and a moral backdrop to it.

The point is, no one should hold this "scientist" as credible because her claims are nothing more than conjecture. If she were able to validate them with some data, that would be the appropriate course. She has not done so, therefore, she qualifies as full of shit. And I'm talking the industrial strength kind.

Well, if black hole is not good enough... How about, "it is so stupid that the black hole turned into a white hole, regurgitating everything that was inside back." Well, white holes are theoretical, but hey, anything for a good metaphor, eh? Or you could talk about galactic collisions and how it causes galaxies to beam out light from the supermassive blackhole's poles and pretty much outshine the entire galaxy. Or you could just use supermassive black holes instead of the stellar sized ones. Or you could talk about tiny black holes which explode massively after evaporating. ^_^

Hanlon's Razor states, "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.". I'm thinking you should apply an inverse Hanlon's Razor to her statements: she can't be that stupid and survive, so it must be malice. Or, more likely, not malice, just self-serving. She either wants to grow her mind-share in the community, or wants to solicit money for her organization.

Perhaps the most compelling point in this article is that not even the Catholic Church has a problem with this. This is the organization who won't support the American Cancer Society because the ACS is in favor of stem cell research. How crazy do you have to be to be more anti-abortion than the Catholic Church?

That's all I need to know about her.

"Ave Maria Biotech" ? She's trying for the next Virgin Birth?
Gah. this woman must be a crook or a fool or both.

Okay, so, fetal stem cell lines can't be used for vaccines because the foreign DNA will cause autoimmune disorders and teh autism. So instead, she proposes using adult stem cells because they somehow won't?

Okay, so she's totally wrong about the supposed "danger" from fetal cell lines, but even if she were right, how would her solution actually make any difference to the safety of the vaccines? At best, she might produce a product that religious wingnuts could use, but it wouldn't be any fundamentally different.

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 22 Jul 2009 #permalink

Dr. Deisher may be a devout Catholic, but she's not a very good scientist. It took me less than five minutes to find a number of references that show bidirectional transfer of cells across the placenta.

[a very good study to read on this would be Vernochet C et al. Bi-directional cell trafficking between mother and fetus in mouse placenta. Placenta. 2007 Jul;28(7):639-49. - there are dozens of others showing movement of maternal cells to the fetus, including several human studies.]

In other words, not only is every pregnant woman receiving fetal cells, but every fetus is receiving maternal cells. So, if it is the "foreign DNA" that is causing autism, then everybody should be autistic. Since that is not the case, Dr. Deisher's hypothesis has been refuted.

Next slide, please.

Oh, and the whole "cross-over hot spot" hypothesis - that's just another steaming pile of bunk.

Even if the entire DNA complement of a million WI-38 or MRC-5 cells were injected in a vaccine, was not rapidly degraded, was taken up only by brain cells (miraculously bypassing the muscle cells at the injection site and the lung cells as they come past on the venous circulation) and then recombined with 100% efficiency (which only happens in the dreams of eukaryotic gene researchers) at only the X-chromosome "hot spots", that still would "convert" less than 1% of the neurons. You would - at absolute, odds-defying, entropy-ignoring worst! - only have a mosaic of the autism gene.

In this less-than-perfect world, the actual number of neurons affected would be indistinguishable from zero.

Dr. Deisher should know better. If she doesn't, she needs to return her PhD to Stanford. If she does know that her "hypothesis" is full of.....holes, she is deliberately lying to make money for her company.

I wonder which one it is?


Ugh, as a member of the Seattle life-sciences community I am appalled by this woman, her company, and the whole thing. I am sure that there are many very deserving biotech startups that could use AVM's VC funding far more.

I guess this is more evidence that a PhD is more about perseverance than brilliance. Bah!

By JustaTech (not verified) on 22 Jul 2009 #permalink

Callie, obviously the fetal cells are harboring a huge amount of resentment at having been aborted so many years ago, and have cooked up this scheme to strike back at the world by sending their aggressively recombinant DNA on a grudge-fueled tear into the 'autism hotspots' of a vaccinated child's genome. Adult stem cells, by contrast, have no such issues, and their DNA is generally very well behaved. It's really quite simple.

By Jennifer B. Phillips (not verified) on 22 Jul 2009 #permalink

Next stop: Autism is caused by vaccines, which are made on an old Indian burial ground!!1!

There are groups researching the potential link between this DNA and autoimmune diseases such as juvenile (type I) diabetes, multiple sclerosis and lupus. Our organization, Sound Choice Pharmaceutical Institute, is focused on studying the quantity, characteristics and genomic recombination of the aborted fetal DNA found in many of our vaccines.

Wait, so... she says that "people are researching this" to make it seem like this has scientific plausibility and backing, but her sole example of such research is the organization she's the president of?

Untainted knowledge? Morally acceptable technology? Let us throw away everything humanity has learned and invented because there is fault to be found with all of it. If one looks closely enough.

The unreasonable extreme right meets the unreasonable extreme left -- if humans are not to be eradicated, they must at least be reduced to their "original" state, if only we can agree what and when that was.

The key word is contaminated. Not as in physically contaminated with trace pieces of DNA from the cells used to cultivate the virus used in the vaccine. It is morally, ethically & metaphysically contaminated by the presence of DNA derived from fetal cell lines. The vaccines have bad juju. They are demon-haunted. Even though you might somehow cleanse the vaccines of all DNA from the cell cultures, the vaccines would remain tainted - and bad things will come from these vaccines no matter how they are treated. Bad to the bone. Incorrigible.

And, thus, shit happens.

By natural cynic (not verified) on 22 Jul 2009 #permalink

and then recombined with 100% efficiency (which only happens in the dreams of eukaryotic gene researchers) at only the X-chromosome "hot spots",

As someone who occasionally flirts with gene therapy all I can say is, "Sigh...if only!" Not just the 100% efficiency recombination but the idea that the gene is only taken up at a few isolated spots...which appear not to be oncogenes...that would make life so much easier if it happened.

Proof that having a PhD sometimes means Pile it Higher and Deeper.

"It would be like using the research results on hypothermia from Nazi Germany that involved murdering people," she said.

Would it be like using rocket technology that involved murdering people to get NASA to the moon? (There were lots of slave labourers involved in the V2 project.) Or is that OK somehow?

Were we right to ignore the sound medical evidence the Nazis found that showed how dangerous smoking was, on the sole basis that it was Nazi?

Facts are facts, regardless of their origin. The number of blunders made by scientists ignoring evidence from the "wrong" source shows the foolishness of her policy.

Absolutely right, natural cynic, this is her atavistic purity thinking running rampant all over her PhD.

I will say something about Theresa Deischer: she DOES in fact have a legitimate PhD (in Anatomy, from Stanford, 1990). Her thesis title was

Catecholamine-induced cardiotoxicity: Basic mechanisms of disease and prevention. Evaluation of the role of beta-adrenergic stimulation, cellular calcium handling, and oxygen radical production

Now, if we want to know about mechanisms of catecholamine-induced cardiotoxicity in rats, she would be a great person to ask.

However, I am not sure how that makes her an expert in vaccines.

This is something to always remember: people are experts based on what they know, not by the letters after their name. The PhD means she has demonstrated excellent knowledge and capability on a selected topic; it does not mean nor imply that she has such capability or knowledge on everything. If she were to show that she has obtained comparable expertise in this area, through, for example, additional publication of original research, then we might have reason to take her seriously. Until then, however, she is just another PhD working outside of their area of expertise, where she has no credibility.

I have a PhD in chemistry. I don't pretend to be an expert in everything, not even in all of chemistry.

Yeah, this sounds like it's more about anti-abortion than anti-vaccine. If the cell lines came from a spontaneously aborted fetus instead of an electively aborted one, I suppose she thinks the DNA contamination would be somehow better.

If the cell lines came from a spontaneously aborted fetus instead of an electively aborted one, I suppose she thinks the DNA contamination would be somehow better.

Actually, wouldn't it be worse? The fetus (really embryo probably) from an electively terminated pregnancy, assuming it was really elective and not for some medical reason, is probably just a normal product of conception whereas a spontaneously aborted fetus/embryo is fairly likely to have been aborted because of some problem-possibly with the pregnancy, possibly with the fetus.


You've missed the point. It's about Constitutional rights, not about competence. See, e.g., "Lawsuit Claims Indiana Law Examiners Violate the ADA", Leigh Jones, The National Law Journal, July 9, 2009:

"The American Civil Liberties Union of Indiana has launched a class action against that state's board of law examiners, asserting that inquiries into the mental health of those seeking a law license violate federal disabilities law."

rest of the article at

Since you have a legal right to be a crazy lawyer, and since nearly all Judges and most members of Congress and their staffs are lawyers, a certain percentage of them will be crazy. Accordingly, the laws enacted and judicial interpretations will reflect this.

So, since a person has have a right to be a crazy lawyer who enacts and enforces laws governing other peopleâs lives, it follows that a person has a right to be a crazy Stanford Ph.D.

Does anyone know the Latin phrase for âInsane not by choice, but by rightâ ?

Why don't I get DNA poisoning when a mosquito bites me?

They have DNA, and I'm sure some tiny amount of it must be in the anti-coagulant fluid they inject...

So what does happen to the DNA in the food we eat? Do we have DNase in our guts? I have worked with someone who seemed to shed DNase from his skin, his restriction digests seemed to always totally destroy the plasmids.

"So what does happen to the DNA in the food we eat?"
I was always under the impression that it was broken up or destroyed by our digestive processes. Isn't the DNA in cooked meat "dead", anyway? (Correct me if I'm wrong. Please.)

By Laser Potato (not verified) on 23 Jul 2009 #permalink

@ LP
cooking would denature but not destroy DNA. After all in vitro DNA amplification requires repeated heating of DNA to almost 100C and the stuff remains quite functional if put into the correct environment.
Anyone know? Do we break down and utilize food DNA or is it such a small component of the food that it just passes through?

I love this idea of "tainted knowledge." Kind of like the superstition about not buying a house where someone was murdered. Silly supernaturalists.

We have DNase and RNase in the pancreatic juice, however, I suppose that the low pH in the stomach is enough to denaturate the nucleic acids and render them biologically inactive.

Yikes, as a nutritionist I should be able to answer this digestion question. But I now have a headache after reading the above serve of stupid. Proteases in the stomach certainly break down proteins into amino acids, helped along by hydrochloric acid. The amino acids then get absorbed.

Whatever, this person is talking a bunch of religious shit! Or is just a smart (!) business person looking for a niche market, and is prepared to lie, exaggerate, inappropriately extrapolate, and otherwise bullshit to flog a product.

What about the DNA from the monkey kidney cells and the fertile duck eggs that vaccines are produced on?

Am I about to sprout feathers or start flinging poo?

By Tsu Dho Nimh (not verified) on 24 Jul 2009 #permalink

I suppose Deisher and her deluded ilk would also turn down a life-saving organ transplant for their dying child - just because it came from a murder victim or a criminal who had been executed. The 'logic' of these supposedly educated people is frightening.

You really seem to have a big problem with people that are against vaccines saying how stupid they are and they are propagandists. But what we all need to ask ourselves is why? Why would there be a movement for the sake of moving? Why would there be a VERY large group of people out there that believe, through much research mind you, that vaccines are bad just for the sake of it? Who actually makes money by saying DON'T vaccinate?? (The answer is NO ONE!!) Who makes money by saying, "no, no vaccines can't possibly cause anything bad, only good!"? (They answer is doctors, drug companies, government, etc who are out to protect their profits)
My point is that there must be something to the anti-vaccine movement, otherwise there wouldn't be one. If vaccines were all good and wonderful and not having ANY negative affects whatsoever, then why would anyone reject that? Here is something that does NO harm, only causes us to not get sick from many diseases...great! Who in their right mind would reject that????? But clearly that's not the case! Show me ONE thing from modern medicine (medications, vaccines, etc) that has NO side effects! How many people are on SEVERAL medications b/c they take one for problem A then the side effects cause problem B now they have to take another med for that which then causes problem C so they have to medicate for that and on and on it goes....
I'm just saying before you call a bunch of very informed people STUPID maybe you should ask why and then consider all people's point of view! And maybe even ask yourself who the stupid one is!

Paraphrased Dawn: My point is that there must be something to the (fill in the blank) movement, otherwise there wouldn't be one.

Possible choices:
9/11 truther
world-wide Jewish conspiracy
intelligent design
- and on and on and on...

By T.Bruce McNeely (not verified) on 20 Sep 2009 #permalink

In the case of the modern anti-vaccine movement, that's easy to answer. The reasons for its existence are 3-fold:

1. It offers parents an external explanation (an "other" to blame) for their kids conditions (mainly autism.)

2. It has profit potential in the form of vaccine injury compensation through litigation.

3. It has profit potential for snake oil salesmen who offer to treat the supposed vaccine injuries.

None of what I just outlined is theoretical or speculative. It has occurred. The modern anti-vax movement is organized and well-funded.

You really seem to have a big problem with people that are against
vaccines saying how stupid they are and they are propagandists. But
what we all need to ask ourselves is why? Why would there be a
movement for the sake of moving? Why would there be a VERY large group
of people out there that believe, through much research mind you, that
vaccines are bad just for the sake of it?

Why would there be a movement that denies evolution?

Why would there be a movement that denies the Holocaust?

Why would there be a movement that claims the moon landings were a hoax?

T Bruce McNeely @39 & Orac @41 - given that most anti-vaxxers subscribe to at least one other whackaloonity (crank magnetism), your arguments will go right over their heads. Remember, Dawn is a NWO whacko, so she probably is a troofer and moon landing denialist.

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 20 Sep 2009 #permalink

Who actually makes money by saying DON'T vaccinate??

Well, let's see. Wakefield and Krigsman have built entire careers around it; that's their entire job. McCarthy, Handley, Adams among others have made money from books and other writings about it. DAN doctors make money by selling quack treatments.

Don't ask questions that have such easy answers which completely destroy your argument.

It may sound cruel but I really think that Darwin is at work here. That the anti vax folks are simply dumb asses it a given. Like Jehovah shitnesses who exsanguinate rather get transfused.......they choose death. OK. Is this 'nature's' way of thinning the herd by eliminating THE STUPID? Alas, the kids of Jenny Mac et al have no choice in the matter and are doomed, as a function of their parents refusal to immunize, to get sick and maybe die? Therein is the unforgiveable negligence. What to do? While I mourn the deaths and diseases of the innocent which will invariably come I have gotten my seasonal flu shot along with my husband and children ages 11 and 13. I am scheduled to get H1N1 in the next week - again with my family. Wouldn't think of NOT immunizing........recalling how we took the sugar cube polio vaccine after church in the sixties and how our parents (who had SEEN polio and iron lungs along with 'infantile paralysis') made certain we got all our shots (including smallpox) and never once considered deferring immunization for some unseen threat. THEY knew, having SEEN the threat up close and personal that the REAL bogeyman was the DISEASE....I guess they were right all along when they said, 'the shot will only last a second and the sickness will stay forever!'

By Last of the Zu… (not verified) on 08 Oct 2009 #permalink

Last of the Zucchini Flowers said:

OK. Is this 'nature's' way of thinning the herd by eliminating THE STUPID?

What do you say to parents of children who have real medical reasons for not vaccinating, and need herd immunity? Like the cancer patients at our local children's hospital?

Oh, wow, I should have noticed this earlier (blame the late hour)... why did you post your comment on this old blog posting when there are more recent ones on the same topic?

Wow what an extremely objective and well written article. Very well done. I've never seen such objectivity in writing. You should be the final reviewer of all science that challenges the status quo. I mean after all most revolutionary discoveries were made because of like-minded, unchallenged and groupthink science, and the enlightened ones that knew they were right ridiculed anyone who challenged their beliefs. For ridicule and dismissal of opposing ideas is how REAL progress is made. Keep up the good work Orac, we can dream together that one day those who challenge our thought process will be immediately killed, maybe even publicly.

Matt, why did you choose to post this comment on an article that over a year and half old? And what does your rant have to do with the article? Necromancer, explain yourself!

Some basic rules before commenting on a blog or forum:

1) If you find an article through Google, before commenting go to the first page and see what is under discussion.

2) Get to know the place, lurk for a while.

3) Become familiar with the writing style, especially in how issues are discussed. Anecdotes are not considered data.

4) Actually read the article and comments before commenting.

5) Try to proof read your comments (okay, we don't all do that).

6) If you think you want to bring a subject up to the participants' attention, please use the search box on the upper left side of this page to see if it has been discussed before.

7) If you get an error when posting a comment, before posting again... open another window to see if it was actually posted.

Chris, I was simply pointing out the direct dismissal and blatant ridicule of the author in this article. "Thermonuclear stupid" Really? What part of the scientific process denotes calling people names and using a supposed scientific forum to publicly degrade someone?

Well, if you don't like the language, don't read it. Did you miss the supporting evidence that was also included in the article?

If you have any evidence supporting Deisher's claims, please include them. Explain how stopping the use of the MMR will reduce autism and not cause more tragedies that occurred during the rubella epidemic in the 1960s.

If you read and understood the history behind the MMR vaccine, then you will realize that children have been saved. I suggest you read this book to get a better perspective.

Also, do you think we should be nice to Robert O. Young? He has a mail order degree from the now closed Clayton College, and was "treating" a woman for breast cancer. She died yesterday, possibly several years earlier than she should have.

Again, why do you feel the need to comment on this article? The language to describe incredible stupidity has been used elsewhere... so what makes this article so special?

I'm not saying anyone should "be nice." I was just trying to point out the immediate loss in credibility one achieves when resorting to name calling tactics and ridicule.

I personally do not agree with Deisher's claims but I have read some of the research and the correlations are definitely worth looking at. It seems that most people are pre-programmed to blindly dismiss avenues of approach when it comes to studying autism. They write off the parents of vaccine injured children as Jenny Mcarthy fanatics.

Something is causing an increase in the incidence of autism and it is definitely not because "we have a better way to diagnosis of it now." Does it mean that it is from vaccines? Not necessarily. It could be from the myriad of chemicals that are sprayed onto furniture as fire retardants, or pesticides, or the fact that just this week 95% of the money in circulation has been found to have Bisphenal A on it in dangerous levels.

But discounting vaccines as a possible factor is pretty ignorant when looking into the ingredients. Remove thimerasol from the discussion and you are left with TRITON X, Polysorbate 80, Aluminum adjuvants in the form of Aluminum hydroxyphosphate sulfate. I know these are extremely small amounts but intramuscular injections do not need large quantities to be hemo or neuro toxic.

The fact is that pharmaceutical companies could easily rid themselves of this negative stigma by doing two things.

1. Get rid of multi-use vials. This is the reasoning for so many of the preservatives in vaccines, they try to save money with less packaging. They make billions, how about nutting up and make single use vials that do not need to contain all these preservatives.

2. Conduct a study of vaccinated children to unvaccinated children and look at all instance of disease including autism.

The reason I came to this article was because it was linked from a discussion forum I was on and Deisher's name came up and the person ridiculing her on there used this article as a reference, which after reading this it is easy to see how someone could jump on the ridicule bandwagon and start parroting remarks like "thermonuclear stupid." They obviously do no real research on their own and most likely pick and choose studies to form fit their opinion.


If you look at past postings here, you'll see the problem with your proposed study. Basically, there is no ethical way to do a valid study--one where the children are matched except for vaccine status. You cannot ethically deprive patients of potentially life-saving treatments on the chance that there might be harmful side effects. (Conversely, if you believe that vaccines are unnecessary and harmful, you cannot ethically force patients to take these dangerous substances.)

Retrospective comparisons of vaccinated and unvaccinated kids show, surprise, that whatever the causes of autism are, vaccines aren't one of them. (In fact, vaccination has a small protective effect against autism: prenatal rubella increases the risk of autism.)

If I were to say "autism is caused by defective sperm," you would, reasonably, ask me to prove it. You wouldn't tell the fathers of autistic children that they had to either accept that claim or do studies to prove I was wrong. The burden of proof is the same for an alleged chemical cause: show us the data. Not "it could be possible, in theory," but evidence that it's true.

"But discounting vaccines as a possible factor is pretty ignorant when looking into the ingredients."

You do realize that there has been zero correlation between vaccinations and autism in the scientific literature, right?

"Something is causing an increase in the incidence of autism and it is definitely not because "we have a better way to diagnosis of it now.""

I think you mean "diagnose it now", and no, it's not simply because of that. A lot of cases that were originall just chalked up to a generic mental disability or social awkwardness now are getting diagnosed as autism, because science has broadened its definition (since autism manifests itself in varied ways).

"Get rid of multi-use vials."

We already know thiomersal is safe thanks to the mounds of evidence, so unless you can provide evidence that some other factor in multi-use vials 'causes autism' (not that vaccines have ever even been linked with autsim), there's no reason to. Again, back yourself up with evidence

"Conduct a study of vaccinated children to unvaccinated children and look at all instance of disease including autism."

Really, Matt? Really? You actually think studies like this haven't been conducted already? What, did you think the doctors in the autism omnibus trials were just pulling shit out of their ass when they testified about the safety of vaccinations?

Be honest, Matt; you really haven't done any research into this, have you?

Use the search function of this website and learn a bit. You would look a bit less foolish.

Thimerosal was removed from pediatric vaccines almost ten years ago. Even Sallie Bernard, the doyenne of SafeMinds, was unable to find any in 2001! So stop repeating stupid things you read in random websites and get a clue.

2. Conduct a study of vaccinated children to unvaccinated children and look at all instance of disease including autism.

This has been discussed ad nauseum by Orac multiple times. Do yourself a favor and really, really use the search function. Read about ethics in biomedical research, and do not bring that up as a condition until you come up with a study plan that will protected the placebo arm of the study from pertussis, measles and other very real diseases.

Oh, and as far as the MMR goes: It never contained thimerosal. It was also introduced in the USA in 1971.

Here is a study that used a placebo group for a measles vaccine: Efficacy of Measles Vaccine. Look at the control group. Do you see that there is a column for "deaths" in Table 1?

Now if you are going to bring up your proposed study, be sure to include the steps that would prevent the need for a "deaths" column. Is that understood?

Something is causing an increase in the incidence of autism and it is definitely not because "we have a better way to diagnosis of it now."

@Matt: What makes you so sure it's definitely not an artifact? You must have some data. Let's see it.

Something is causing an increase in the incidence of autism and it is definitely not because "we have a better way to diagnosis of it now."

Matt, you are wrong.…

This report refers to a study that shows that the diagnosis of mental retardation has dropped simultaneously with the rise in ASD diagnoses. If what you say is true, what is causing the decrease in mental retardation?

More evidence that you are wrong:

A 2009 report based on the 2007 Adult Psychiatric Morbidity Survey by the National Health Service determined that the prevalence of ASD in adults was approximately 1% of the population, with a higher prevalence in males and no significant variation between age groups;[18] these results suggest that prevalence of ASD among adults is similar to that in children and rates of autism are not increasing.[19]

- from Wikipedia: Epidemiology of Autism

This again is evidence that the more inclusive criteria for ASD diagnosis are responsible for the so-called epidemic.

I personally think that ridicule has its place, particularly when the object of such ridicule is, in fact, ridiculous.

By T. Bruce McNeely (not verified) on 09 Dec 2010 #permalink


1. Get rid of multi-use vials. This is the reasoning for so many of the preservatives in vaccines, they try to save money with less packaging. They make billions, how about nutting up and make single use vials that do not need to contain all these preservatives.

What makes that you think that the added costs of packaging in single use vials doesn't get passed on to the consumers?

In your list:

TRITON X, Polysorbate 80, Aluminum adjuvants in the form of Aluminum hydroxyphosphate sulfate

Please tell me which of these is a preservative?

First hint: you've already listed one of your "scary" ingredients as an adjuvant. Are adjuvants the same as preservatives? Or might they still be needed in a single does vial? What about the others?

Before you call for eliminating ingredients, I suggest you find out what those ingredients actually do.

I guess if I were to obtain all of my information from this site I would dismiss facts too. Sorry to have stepped on the toes of the worldly knowledge base. Keep citing one study at a time to back up your claims, that is the best way to go about it. If you can break away from your narcissism try reading a few studies....

Ehrengut W, âBias in evaluating CNS complications following pertussis immunization.â Acta Paediatr Jpn, 1991 Aug; 33(4):421-427. Vaccinations and Unexplained Diseases:

Hiner, E E, Frasch, C E, âSpectrum of Disease Due to Haemophilus Influenza Type B Occurring in Vaccinated Childrenâ, J Infect Disorder, 1988 Aug; 158(2): 343-348.

Olin P, Romanus, V, Storsaeter, J, âInvasive Bacterial Infections During an Efficiacy Trial of Acellular Pertussis Vaccines â Implications For Future Surveilance In Pertussis Vaccine Programmesâ, Tokai J Exp Clin Med, 1988; 13 Suppl: 143-144.

Storsaeter, J, et al, âMortality and Morbidity From Invasive Bacterial Infections During a Clinical Trial of Acellular Pertussis Vaccines in Swedenâ, Pediatr Infect Disorder J, 1988 Sept; 7(9):637-645.

Vadheim, CM, et al, âEffectiveness and Safety of an Haemophilus Influenzae type b Conjugate Vaccine (PRP-T) in Young Infants. Kaiser-UCLA Vaccine Study Group,â Pediartics, 1993 Aug; 92(2):272-279.

Stickl, H, âEstimation of Vaccination Damageâ, Med Welt, Oct 14, 1972, 23:1495-1497.

Waters, VV, et al, âRisk Factors for Measles in a Vaccinated Populationâ, JAMA, Mar 27, 1991, 265(12): 1527.

Stickl, H, âIatrogenic Immuno-suppression as a Result of Vaccinationâ, Fortschr Med, Mar 5, 1981, 99(9);289-292. Vaccine Citations Linking the Vaccine to the âpreventedâ Disease:

Nkowane, et al, âVaccine-Associated Paralytic Poliomyelitis, US 1973 through 1984, JAMA, 1987, Vol 257:1335-1340.

Quast, et al, âVaccine Induced Mumps-like Diseasesâ, nd, Int Symp on Immun, Development Bio Stand, Vol 43, p269-272.

Green, C et al, âA Case of Hepatitis Related to Etretinate Therapy and Hepatitis B Vaccineâ, Dermatologica, 1991, 182(2):119-120.

Shasby, DM, et al, âEpidemic Measles in Highly Vaccinated Populationâ, NEJM, Mar 1977, 296(11): 585-589.

Tesovic, G et al, âAseptic Meningitis after Measles, Mumps and Rubella Vaccineâ, Lancet, Jun 12, 1993, 341(8859):1541.

Johnson, RH, et al, âNosocomial Vaccinia Infectionâ, West J Med, Oct 1976, 125(4):266-270.

Malengreau, M, âReappearance of Post-Vaccination Infection of Measles, Rubella, and Mumps. Should Adolescents be re-vaccinated?â Pedaitric, 1992;47(9):597-601 (25 ref)

Basa, SN, âParalytic Poliomyelitis Following Inoculation With Combined DTP Prophylactic. A review of Sixteen cases with Special Reference to Immunization Schedules in Infancyâ, J Indian Med Assoc, Feb 1, 1973, 60:97-99.

Landrigan, PJ et al, âMeasles in Previously Vaccinated Children in Illinoisâ, Ill Med J, Arp 1974, 141:367-372.

NA, âVaccine-Associated Poliomyelitisâ, Med J Aust, Oct 1973, 2:795-796. Vaccine Failures Citations:

Hardy, GE, Jr, et al, âThe Failure of a School Immunization Campaign to Terminate an Urban Epidemic of Measles,â Amer J Epidem, Mar 1970; 91:286-293.

Cherry, JD, et al, âA Clinical and Serologic Study of 103 Children With Measles Vaccine Failureâ, J Pediatr, May 1973; 82:801-808.

Jilg, W, et al, âInoculation Failure Following Hepatitis B Vaccinationâ, Dtsch Med wochenschr, 1990 Oct 12; 115(41):1514-1548.

Plotkin, SA, âFailures of Protection by Measles Vaccine,â J Pediatr, May 1973; 82:798-801.

Bolotovskii, V, et al, âMeasles Incidence Among Children Properly Vaccinated Against This Infectionâ, ZH Mikrobiol Epidemiol Immunobiol, 1974; 00(5):32-35.

Landrigan, PJ, et al, âMeasles in Previously Vaccinated Children in Illinoisâ, Ill Med J, Apr 1974; 141:367-372.

Strebel, P et al, âAn Outbreak of Whooping Cough in a Highly Vaccinated Urban Communityâ, J Trop Pediatr, Mar 1991, 37(2): 71-76.

Forrest, JM, et al, âFailure of Rubella Vaccination to Prevent Congenital Rubella,âMed J Aust, 1977 Jan 15; 1(3): 77.

Jilg, W, âUnsuccessful Vaccination against Hepatitis Bâ, Dtsch Med Wochenschr, Nov 16, 1990, 115(46):1773.

Coles, FB, et al, âAn Outbreak of Influenza A (H3N2) in a Well-Immunized Nursing home Population,â J Am ger Sociologist, Jun 1992, 40(6):589-592.

Jilg, W, et al, âInoculation Failure following Hepatitis B Vaccination,â Dtsch Med Wochenschr, Oct 12, 1990, 115(41):1545-1548.

Hartmann, G et al, âUnsuccessful Inoculation against Hepatitis B,â Dtsch Med Wochenschr, May 17, 1991, 116(20): 797.

Buddle, BM et al, âContagious Ecthyma Virus-Vaccination Failuresâ, Am J Vet Research, Feb 1984, 45(2):263-266.

Mathias, R G, âWhooping Cough In Spite of Immunizationâ, Can J Pub Health, 1978 Mar/Apr; 69(2):130-132.

Osterholm, MT, et al, âLack of Efficacy of Haemophilus b Polysacharide Vaccine in Minnesotaâ, JAMA, 1988 Sept 9; 260(10:1423-1428.

Johnson, RH, et al, âNosocomial Vaccinia Infectionâ, West J Med, Oct 1976, 125(4):266-270. Vaccines Causing Another Vaccinal Disease:

Basa, SN, âParalytic Poliomyelitis Following Inoculation With Combined DTP Prophylactic. A review of Sixteen cases with Special Reference to Immunization Schedules in Infancyâ, J Indian Med Assoc, Feb 1, 1973, 60:97-99.

Pathel, JC, et al, âTetanus Following Vaccination Against Small-poxâ, J Pediatr, Jul 1960; 27:251-263.

Favez, G, âTuberculous Superinfection Following a Smallpox Re-Vaccinationâ, Praxis, July 21, 1960; 49:698-699.

Quast, Ute, and Hennessen, âVaccine-Induced Mumps-like Diseasesâ, Intern Symp on Immunizations , Development Bio Stand, Vol 43, p 269-272.

Forrest, J M, et al, âClinical Rubella Eleven months after Vaccination,â Lancet, Aug 26, 1972, 2:399-400.

Dittman, S, âAtypical Measles after Vaccinationâ, Beitr Hyg Epidemiol, 19891, 25:1-274 (939 ref)

Sen S, et al, âPoliomyelitis in Vaccinated Childrenâ, Indian Pediatr, May 1989, 26(5): 423-429.

Arya, SC, âPutative Failure of Recombinant DNA Hepatitis B Vaccinesâ, Vaccine, Apr 1989, 7(2): 164-165.

Lawrence, R et al, âThe Risk of Zoster after Varicella Vaccination in Children with Leukemiaâ, NEJM, Mar 3, 1988, 318(9): 543-548. Vaccination Citations and Death

Na, âDPT Vaccination and Sudden Infant Death â Tennessee, US Dept HEW, MMWR Report, Mar 23, 1979, vol 28(11): 132.

Arevalo, âVaccinia Necrosum. Report on a Fatal Caseâ, Bol Ofoc Sanit Panamer, Aug 1967, 63:106-110.

Connolly, J H, Dick, G W, Field, CM, âA Case of Fatal Progressive Vacciniaâ, Brit Med Jour, 12 May 1962; 5288:1315-1317.

Aragona, F, âFatal Acute Adrenal Insufficiency Caused by Bilateral Apoplexy of the Adrenal Glands (WFS) following Anti-poliomyelitis Vaccinationâ, Minerva Medicolegale, Aug 1960; 80:167-173.

Moblus, G et al, âPathological-Anatomical Findings in Cases of Death Following Poliomyelitis and DPT Vaccinationâ, Dtsch Gesundheitsw, Jul 20, 1972, 27:1382-1386.

NA, âImmunizations and Cot Deathsâ, Lancet, Sept 25, 1982, np.

Goetzeler, A, âFatal Encephalitis after Poliomyelitis Vaccinationâ, 22 Jun 1961, Muenchen Med Wschr, 102:1419-1422.

Fulginiti, V, âSudden Infant Death Syndrome, Diphtheria-Tetanus Toxoid-Pertussis Vaccination and Visits to the Doctor: Chance Association or Cause and Effect?â, Pediatr Infect Disorder, Jan-Feb 1983, 2(1): 7-11.

Baraff, LJ, et al, âPossible Temporal Association Between Diphtheria-tetanus toxoid-Pertussis Vaccination and Sudden Infant Death Syndromeâ, Pediatr Infect Disorder, Jan-Feb 1983, 2(1): 5-6.

Reynolds, E, âFatal Outcome of a Case of Eczema Vaccinatumâ, Lancet, 24 Sept 1960, 2:684-686.

Apostolov. et al, âDeath of an Infant in Hyperthermia After Vaccinationâ, J Clin Path, Mar 1961, 14:196-197.

Bouvier-Colle, MH, âSex-Specific Differences in Mortality After High-Titre Measles Vaccinationâ, Rev Epidemiol Sante Publique, 1995; 43(1): 97.

Stewart GT, âDeaths of infants after triple vaccine.â, Lancet 1979 Aug 18;2(8138):354-355.

Flahault A, âSudden infant death syndrome and diphtheria/tetanus toxoid/pertussis/poliomyelitis immunisation.â, Lancet 1988 Mar 12;1(8585):582-583.

Larbre, F et al, âFatal Acute Myocarditis After Smallpox Vaccinationâ, Pediatrie, Apr-May 1966, 21:345-350.

Mortimer EA Jr, âDTP and SIDS: when data differâ, Am J Public Health 1987 Aug; 77(8):925-926. Vaccines and Metabolism Citations:

Deutsch J, â [Temperature changes after triple-immunization in infant age],â Padiatr Grenzgeb 1976;15(1):3-6. [Article in German]

NA, â[Temperature changes after triple immunization in childhood],â Padiatr Grenzgeb 1976;15(1):7-10. [Article in German]

Burmistrova AL, â[Change in the non-specific resistance of the body to influenza and acute respiratory diseases following immunization diphtheria-tetanus vaccine],â Zh Mikrobiol Epidemiol Immunobiol 1976; (3):89-91.

Kaga, âUnilateral Total Loss of Auditory and Vestibular Function as a Complication of Mumps Vaccinationâ, Int J Ped Oto, Feb 1998, 43(1):73-73

Nabe-Nielsen, Walter, âUnilateral Total Deafness as a Complication of the Measles- Mumps- Rubella Vaccinationâ, Scan Audio Suppl, 1988, 30:69-70

Hulbert, et al, âBilateral Hearing Loss after Measles and Rubella Vaccination in an Adultâ, NEJM, 1991 July, 11;325(2):134

Healy, âMumps Vaccine and Nerve Deafnessâ, Am J Disorder Child, 1972 Jun; 123(6):612

Jayarajan, Sedler, âHearing Loss Following Measles Vaccinationâ, J Infect, 1995 Mar; 30(2):184-185

Pialoux, P et al, âVaccinations and Deafnessâ, Ann Otolaryng (Paris), Dec 1963, 80:1012-1013.

Angerstein, W, et al, âSolitary Hearing and Equilibrium Damage After Vaccinationsâ, Gesundheitswesen, May 1995, 57(5): 264-268.

Brodsky, Stanievich, âSensorineural Hearing Loss Following Live Measles Virus Vaccinationâ, Int J Ped Oto, 1985 Nov; 10(2):159-163

Koga, et al, âBilateral Acute Profound Deafness After MMR Vaccination- Report of a Caseâ, Nippon Jibiin Gakkai Kai, 1991 Aug;94(8):1142-5

Seiferth, LB, âDeafness after Oral Poliomyelitis Vaccination â a Case Report and Reviewâ, HNO, 1977 Aug; 25(8): 297-300

Pantazopoulos, PE, âPerceptive Deafness Following Prophylactic use of Tetanus anittoxinâ, Laryngoscope, Dec 1965, 75:1832-1836.

Zimmerman, W, âObservation of a case of Acute Bilateral Hearing Impairment Following Preventive Poliomyelitis Vaccination (type 3)â, Arch Ohr Nas Kehlkopfheilk, 1965, 185:723-725. Vaccinations and Kidney Disorders Citations:

Jacquot, C et al, âRenal Risk in Vaccinationâ, Nouv Presse Med, Nov 6, 1982, 11(44):3237-3238.

Giudicelli, et al, âRenal Risk in Vaccinationâ, Presse Med, Jun 11, 1982, 12(25):1587-1590.

Tan, SY, et al, âVaccine Related Glomerulonephritisâ, BMJ, Jan 23, 1993, 306(6872):248.

Pillai, JJ, et al, âRenal Involvement in Association with Post-vaccination Varicellaâ, Clin Infect Disorder, Dec 1993, 17(6): 1079-1080.

Eisinger, AJ et al, âAcute Renal Failure after TAB and Cholera Vaccinationâ, B Med J, Feb 10, 1979, 1(6160):381-382.

Silina, ZM, et al, âCauses of Postvaccinal Complications in the Kidneys in Young Infantsâ, Pediatria, Dec 1978, (12):59-61.

Na, âAlbuminuriasâ, Concours Med, Mar 1964, 85:5095-5098. [vaccination adverse reactions]

Oyrl, A, et al, âCan Vaccinations Harm the Kidney?â, Clin Nephrol, 1975, 3(5):204-205.

Melâman Nia, â[Renal lesions after use of vaccines and sera].â Vrach Delo 1978 Oct;(10):67-9, [Article in Russian]

Silina ZM, Galaktionova TIa, Shabunina NR, â[Causes of postvaccinal complications in the kidneys in young infants].â Pediatriia 1978 Dec;(12):59-61, [Article in Russian]

Silina EM, et al, â[Some diseases of the kidneys in children during the 1st year of life, following primary smallpox vaccination and administration of pertusis-diphtheria-tetanus vaccine].â Vopr Okhr Materin Det 1968 Mar; 13(3):79-80, [Article in Russian] Vaccines and Skin Disorders Citations:

Illingsworth R, Skin rashes after triple vaccine,â Arch Dis Child 1987 Sep; 62(9):979.

Lupton GP, âDiscoid lupus erythematosus occurring in a smallpox vaccination scar,â J Am Acad Dermatol, 1987 Oct; 17(4):688-690.

Kompier, A J, âSome Skin Diseases caused by Vaccinia Virus [Smallpox],â Ned Milt Geneesk T, 15:149-157, May 1962.

Weber, G et al, âSkin Lesions Following Vaccinations,â Deutsch Med Wschr, 88:1878-1886, S7 Sept 1963.

Copeman, P W, âSkin Complications of Smallpox Vaccination,â Practitioner, 197:793-800, Dec 1966.

Denning, DW, et al, âSkin Rashes After Triple Vaccine,â Arch Disorder Child, May 1987, 62(5): 510-511. Vaccinations and Abcesses:

Sterler, HC, et al, âOutbreaks of Group A Steptococcal Abcesses Following DTP Vaccinationâ, Pediatrics, Feb 1985, 75(2):299-303.

DiPiramo, D, et al, âAbcess Formation at the Site of Inoculation of Calmette-Guerin Bacillus (BCG),â Riv Med Aeronaut Spaz, Jul-Dec 1981, 46(3-4):190-199. Vaccinations and Shock:

Pathel, JC, et al, âTetanus Following Vaccination Against Small-poxâ, J Pediatr, Jul 1960; 27:251-263.

Favez, G, âTuberculous Superinfection Following a Smallpox Re-Vaccinationâ, Praxis, July 21, 1960; 49:698-699.

Bonifacio, A et al, âTraffic Accidents as an expression of âIatrogenic damageâ, Minerva Med, Feb 24, 1971, 62:735-740.

Baker, J et al, âAccidental Vaccinia: Primary Inoculation of a Scrotumâ, Clin Pediatr (Phila), Apr 1972, 11:244-245.

Edwards, K, âDanger of Sunburn Following Vaccinationâ, Papua New Guinea Med J, Dec 1977, 20(4):203.

Stroder, J, âIncorrect Therapy in Childrenâ, Folia Clin Int (Barc), Feb 1966, 16:82-90.

Wehrle PF, âInjury associated with the use of vaccines,â Clin Ther 1985;7(3):282-284.

Alberts ME, âWhen and where will it stopâ, Iowa Med 1986 Sep; 76(9):424.

Breiman RF, Zanca JA, âOf floors and ceilings â defining, assuring, and communicating vaccine safetyâ, Am J Public Health 1997 Dec;87(12):1919-1920.

Stewart, AM, et al, âAetiology of Childhood Leukaemiaâ, Lancet, 16 Oct, 1965, 2:789-790.

Nelson, ST, âJohn Hutchinson On Vaccination Syphilis (Hutchinson, J)â, Arch Derm, (Chic), May 1969, 99:529-535.

Mather, C, âCotton Mather Anguishes Over the Consequences of His Sonâs Inoculation Against Smallpoxâ, Pediatrics, May 1974; 53:756.

Thoman M, âThe Toxic Shot Syndromeâ, Vet Hum Toxicol, Apr 1986, 28(2):163-166.

Johnson, RH, et al, âNosocomial Vaccinia Infectionâ, West J Med, Oct 1976, 125(4):266-270.

Heed, JR, âHuman Immunization With Rabies Vaccine in Suckling Mice Brain,â Salud Publica, May-Jun 1974, 16(3): 469-480.

Tesovic, G et al, âAseptic Meningitis after Measles, Mumps and Rubella Vaccineâ, Lancet, Jun 12, 1993, 341(8859):1541.

Buddle, BM et al, âContagious Ecthyma Virus-Vaccination Failuresâ, Am J Vet Research, Feb 1984, 45(2):263-266.

Freter, R et al, âOral Immunization And Production of Coproantibody in Human Volunteersâ, J Immunol, Dec 1963, 91:724-729.

NA, âVaccination, For and Againstâ, 1964, Belg T Geneesk, 20:125-130.

Sahadevan, MG et al, âPost-vaccinal Myelitisâ, J Indian Med Ass, Feb 16, 1966, 46:205-206.

Castan, P et al, âComa Revealing an acute Leukosis in a child, 15 days after an Oral Anti-poliomyelitis Vaccination,â Acta Neurol Bekg, May 1965, 65:349-367.
Stickl, H, et al, âPurulent [pus] meningitides Following Smallpox Vaccination. On the Problem of Post- Vaccinal Decrease of Resistanceâ, Deutsch Med Wschr, Jul 22, 1966, 91:1307-1310.

But these are likely all fake scientists promoting quackery. Save your time on a response to me, I will not be back to this site.

Oh and one more thing, Wakefield is an apparent target for you people, and I tend to lessen my opinion of people who say something is bad and then promote their own solution. So I found studies from all over the world that corroborate Wakefield's original study. Again, more than ONE.

1. Gastrointestinal abnormalities in children with autistic Disorder

2. Colonic CD8 and γδ T-cell infiltration with epithelial damage in children with autism

3. Intestinal Lymphocyte Populations in Children with Regressive Autism: Evidence for Extensive Mucosal Immunopathology

4. Immune activation of peripheral blood and mucosal CD3+ lymphocyte 3 cytokine profiles in children with autism and gastrointestinal symptoms

5. Antibodies to Myelin Basic Protein in Children with Autistic Behavior

6. Elevated Levels of Measles Antibodies in Children with Autism

7. Dysregulated Innate Immune Responses in Young Children with Autism Spectrum Disorders: Their Relationship to Gastrointestinal Symptoms and Dietary Intervention


9. Autistic enterocolitis: Fact or fiction?

10. Clinical Presentation and Histologic Findings at Ileocolonoscopy in Children with Autistic Spectrum Disorder and Chronic Gastrointestinal symptoms

11. Phenotypic expression of autoimmune autistic disorder (AAD): A major subset of autism

12. Celiac Disease Presenting as Autism

13. Gastrointestinal Symptoms in a Sample of Children with Pervasive Developmental Disorders

14. Autism and Clostridium tetani.

15. Short-term benefit from oral vancomycin treatment of regressive-onset autism.

16. Alpha-1-antitrypsin, autism, and coeliac disease.

17. Malabsorption and cerebral dysfunction: a multivariate and comparative study of autistic children.

18. Colonic CD8 and gamma delta T-cell infiltration with epithelial damage in children with autism.

19. Small intestinal enteropathy with epithelial IgG and complement deposition in children with regressive autism.

20. Focal-enhanced gastritis in regressive autism with features distinct from Crohn's and Helicobacter pylori gastritis.

21. Intestinal lymphocyte populations in children with regressive autism: evidence for extensive mucosal immunopathology.

22. Immune activation of peripheral blood and mucosal CD3+ lymphocyte cytokine profiles in children with autism and gastrointestinal symptoms.

23. Increased serum levels of glutamate in adult patients with autism.

24. Gastrointestinal microflora studies in late-onset autism.

25. Real-time PCR quantitation of clostridia in feces of autistic children.

26. Differences between the gut microflora of children with autistic spectrum disorders and that of healthy children.

oooh! It is a Gish Gallop! And a very old one, the most recent paper is from 1998. Talk about being a necromancer! Nice cherry picking, Matt. Where did you copy and paste that from?

Well, here is my list (you'll see several are discussed in this blog):

Pediatrics. 2010 Sep 13.
Prenatal and Infant Exposure to Thimerosal From Vaccines and Immunoglobulins and Risk of Autism.
Price CS, Thompson WW, Goodson B, Weintraub ES, Croen LA, Hinrichsen VL, Marcy M, Robertson A, Eriksen E, Lewis E, Bernal P, Shay D, Davis RL, Destefano F.

Neurotox Res. 2010 Jul;18(1):59-68. Epub 2009 Sep 16.
Are neuropathological conditions relevant to ethylmercury exposure?
Aschner M, Ceccatelli S.

Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2010 May;29(5):397-400.
Lack of association between measles-mumps-rubella vaccination and autism in children: a case-control study.
Mrozek-Budzyn D, Kieltyka A, Majewska R.

Lack of Association between Measles Virus Vaccine and Autism with Enteropathy: A Case-Control Study.
Hornig M et al.
PLoS ONE 2008; 3(9): e3140 doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0003140
*Subjects: 25 children with autism and GI disturbances and 13 children with GI disturbances alone (controls)

Measles Vaccination and Antibody Response in Autism Spectrum Disorders.
Baird G et al.
Arch Dis Child 2008; 93(10):832-7.
Subjects: 98 vaccinated children aged 10-12 years in the UK with autism spectrum disorder (ASD); two control groups of similar age: 52 children with special educational needs but no ASD and 90 children in the typically developing group

Geographic clustering of nonmedical exemptions to school immunization requirements and associations with geographic clustering of pertussis.
Omer SB, Enger KS, Moulton LH, Halsey NA, Stokley S, Salmon DA.
Am J Epidemiol. 2008 Dec 15;168(12):1389-96. Epub 2008 Oct 15

MMR-Vaccine and Regression in Autism Spectrum Disorders: Negative Results Presented from Japan.
Uchiyama T et al.
J Autism Dev Disord 2007; 37(2):210-7
*Subjects: 904 children with autism spectrum disorder
(Note: MMR was used in Japan only between 1989 and 1993.)

No effect of MMR withdrawal on the incidence of autism: a total population study.
Honda H, Shimizu Y, Rutter M.
J Child Psychol Psychiatry. 2005 Jun;46(6):572-9.

No Evidence of Persisting Measles Virus in Peripheral Blood Mononuclear Cells from Children with Autism Spectrum Disorder.
DâSouza Y et al.
Pediatrics 2006; 118(4):1664-75
*Subjects: 54 children with autism spectrum disorder and 34 developmentally normal children

Immunizations and Autism: A Review of the Literature.
Doja A, Roberts W.
Can J Neurol Sci. 2006; 33(4):341-6
*Literature review

Pervasive Developmental Disorders in Montreal, Quebec, Canada: Prevalence and Links with Immunizations.
Fombonne E et al.
Pediatrics. 2006;118(1):e139-50
*Subjects: 27,749 children born from 1987 to 1998 attending 55 schools

Relationship between MMR Vaccine and Autism.
Klein KC, Diehl EB.
Ann Pharmacother. 2004; 38(7-8):1297-300
*Literature review of 10 studies

Immunization Safety Review: Vaccines and Autism. Institute of Medicine.
The National Academies Press: 2004
(w w w . *Literature review

MMR Vaccination and Pervasive Developmental Disorders: A Case-Control Study.
Smeeth L et al.
Lancet 2004; 364(9438):963-9
*Subjects: 1294 cases and 4469 controls

Age at First Measles-Mumps-Rubella Vaccination in Children with Autism and School-Matched Control Subjects: A Population-Based Study in Metropolitan Atlanta.
DeStefano F et al. Pediatrics 2004; 113(2): 259-66
*Subjects: 624 children with autism and 1,824 controls

Prevalence of Autism and Parentally Reported Triggers in a North East London Population.
Lingam R et al.
Arch Dis Child 2003; 88(8):666-70
*Subjects: 567 children with autistic spectrum disorder

Neurologic Disorders after Measles-Mumps-Rubella Vaccination.
Makela A et al.
Pediatrics 2002; 110:957-63
*Subjects: 535,544 children vaccinated between November 1982 and June 1986 in Finland

A Population-Based Study of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Autism.
Madsen KM et al.
N Engl J Med 2002; 347(19):1477-82
*Subjects: All 537,303 children born 1/91â12/98 in Denmark

Relation of Childhood Gastrointestinal Disorders to Autism: Nested Case Control Study Using Data from the UK General Practice Research Database.
Black C et al.
BMJ 2002; 325:419-21
*Subjects: 96 children diagnosed with autism and 449 controls

Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Bowel Problems or Developmental Regression in Children with Autism: Population Study.
Taylor B et al.
BMJ 2002; 324(7334):393-6
*Subjects: 278 children with core autism and 195 with atypical autism

No Evidence for a New Variant of Measles-Mumps-Rubella-Induced Autism.
Fombonne E et al.
Pediatrics 2001;108(4):E58
*Subjects: 262 autistic children (pre- and post-MMR samples)

Measles-Mumps-Rubella and Other Measles-Containing Vaccines Do Not Increase the Risk for Inflammatory Bowel Disease: A Case-Control Study from the Vaccine Safety Datalink Project.
Davis RL et al.
Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med 2001;155(3):354-9
*Subjects: 155 persons with IBD with up to 5 controls each

Time Trends in Autism and in MMR Immunization Coverage in California.
Dales L et al.
JAMA 2001; 285(9):1183-5
*Subjects: Children born in 1980-94 who were enrolled in California kindergartens (survey samples of 600â1,900 children each year)

Mumps, Measles, and Rubella Vaccine and the Incidence of Autism Recorded by General Practitioners: A Time Trend Analysis.
Kaye JA et al.
BMJ 2001; 322:460-63
*Subjects: 305 children with autism

Further Evidence of the Absence of Measles Virus Genome Sequence in Full Thickness Intestinal Specimens from Patients with Crohnâs Disease.
Afzal MA, et al.
J Med Virol 2000; 62(3):377-82
*Subjects: Specimens from patients with Crohnâs disease

Autism and Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccine: No Epidemiological Evidence for a Causal Association.
Taylor B et al.
Lancet 1999;353 (9169):2026-9
*Subjects: 498 children with autism

Absence of Detectable Measles Virus Genome Sequence in Inflammatory Bowel Disease Tissues and Peripheral Blood Lymphocytes.
Afzal MA et al.
J Med Virol 1998; 55(3):243-9
*Subjects: 93 colonoscopic biopsies and 31 peripheral blood lymphocyte preparations

No Evidence for Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccine-Associated Inflammatory Bowel Disease or Autism in a 14-year Prospective Study.
Peltola H et al.
Lancet 1998; 351:1327-8
*Subjects: 3,000,000 doses of MMR vaccine

Exposure to Measles in Utero and Crohnâs Disease: Danish Register Study.
Nielsen LL et al.
BMJ 1998; 316(7126):196-7
*Subjects: 472 women with measles

Immunocytochemical Evidence of Listeria, Escherichia coli, and Streptococcus Antigens in Crohnâs Disease.
Liu Y et al.
Gastroenterology 1995; 108(5):1396-1404
*Subjects: Intestines and mesenteric lymph node specimens from 21 persons from families with a high frequency of Crohnâs disease

Neuropsychological Performance 10 years after Immunization in Infancy with Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines
Tozzi AE, Bisiacchi P, Tarantino V, De Mei B, D'Elia L, Chiarotti F, Salmaso S.
Pediatrics, February 2009, Vol. 123(2):475-82

Mercury Levels in Newborns and Infants after Receipt of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines
Pichichero ME, Gentile A, Giglio N, et al
Pediatrics, February 2008; 121(2) e208-214

Mercury, Vaccines, And Autism: One Controversy, Three Histories
Baker JP
American Journal of Public Health, February 2008;98(2): 244-253

Continuing Increases in Autism Reported to California's Developmental Services System: Mercury in Retrograde
Schechter R, Grether JK
Arch Gen Psychiatry, January 2008; 65(1):19-24

Early Thimerosal Exposure and Neuropsychological Outcomes at 7 to 10 Years
Thompson WW, Price C, Goodson B, et al; Vaccine Safety Datalink Team
N Engl J Med, Sep 27, 2007; 357(13):1281-1292

Pervasive Developmental Disorders in Montreal, Quebec, Canada: Prevalence and Links with Immunizations
Fombonne E, Zakarian R, Bennett A, Meng L, McLean-Heywood D
Pediatrics, July 2006, Vol. 118(1):e139-e150

Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System Reporting Source: A Possible Source of Bias in Longitudinal Studies
Goodman MJ, Nordin J
Pediatrics, February 2006, Vol. 117(2):387-390

Thimerosal in Vaccines: Balancing the Risk of Adverse Effects with the Risk of Vaccine-Preventable Disease
Bigham M, Copes R
Drug Safety, 2005, Vol. 28(2):89-101

Comparison of Blood and Brain Mercury Levels in Infant Monkeys Exposed to Methylmercury or Vaccines Containing Thimerosal
Burbacher TM, Shen DD, Liberato N, Grant KS, Cernichiari E, Clarkson T
National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences, April 21, 2005

Thimerosal Exposure in Infants and Developmental Disorders: A Prospective Cohort Study in the United Kingdom Does Not Support a Causal Association
Heron J, Golding J, ALSPAC Study Team
Pediatrics, September 2004, Vol. 114(3):577-583

Thimerosal Exposure in Infants and Developmental Disorders: A Retrospective Cohort Study in the United Kingdom Does Not Support a Causal Association
Andrews N, Miller E, Grant A, Stowe J, Osborne V, Taylor B
Pediatrics, September 2004, Vol. 114(3):584-591

Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines and Autistic Spectrum Disorder: A Critical Review of Published Original Data
Parker SK, Schwartz B, Todd J, Pickering LK
Pediatrics, September 2004, Vol. 114(3):793-804

The Evidence for the Safety of Thimerosal in Newborn and Infant Vaccines
Clements CJ
Vaccine, May 7, 2004, Vol. 22(15-16):1854-1861

Safety of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines: A Two-Phased Study of Computerized Health Maintenance Organization Databases
Verstraeten T, Davis RL, DeStefano F, et al
Pediatrics, November 2003, Vol. 112(5):1039-1048

The Toxicology of Mercury--Current Exposures and Clinical Manifestations
Clarkson TW, Magos L, Myers GJ
New England Journal of Medicine, October 30, 2003, Vol. 349(18):1731-7

Association Between Thimerosal-Containing Vaccine and Autism
Hviid A, Stellfeld M, Wohlfahrt J, Melbye M
Journal of the American Medical Association, October 1, 2003, Vol. 290(13):1763-6

Thimerosal and the Occurrence of Autism: Negative Ecological Evidence from Danish Population-Based Data
Madsen KM, Lauritsen MB, Pedersen CB, et al
Pediatrics, Sept. 2003, Vol. 112(3 Pt 1):604-606

Autism and Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines. Lack of Consistent Evidence for an Association
Stehr-Green P, Tull P, Stellfeld M, Mortenson PB, Simpson D
American Journal of Preventive Medicine, August 2003, Vol. 25(2):101-6

Impact of the Thimerosal Controversy on Hepatitis B Vaccine Coverage of Infants Born to Women of Unknown Hepatitis B Surface Antigen Status in Michigan
Biroscak BJ, Fiore AE, Fasano N, Fineis P, Collins MP, Stoltman G
Pediatrics, June 2003, Vol. 111(6):e645-9

Vaccine Safety Policy Analysis in Three European Countries: The Case of Thimerosal
Freed GL, Andreae MC, Cowan AE, et al
Health Policy, December 2002, Vol. 62(3):291-307

Mercury Concentrations and Metabolism in Infants Receiving Vaccines Containing Thimerosal: A Descriptive Study
Pichichero ME, Cernichiari E, Lopreiato J, Treanor J
The Lancet, November 30, 2002, Vol. 360:1737-1741

An Assessment of Thimerosal Use in Childhood Vaccines
Ball LK, Ball R, Pratt RD
Pediatrics, May 2001, Vol. 107(5):1147-1154

Economic Evaluation of the 7-Vaccine Routine Childhood Immunization Schedule in the United States, 2001
Zhou F, Santoli J, Messonnier ML, Yusuf HR, Shefer A, Chu SY, Rodewald L, Harpaz R.
Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005;159:1136-1144.

An economic analysis of the current universal 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccination program in the United States.
Zhou F, Reef S, Massoudi M, Papania MJ, Yusuf HR, Bardenheier B, Zimmerman L, McCauley MM.
J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S131-45.

Pediatric hospital admissions for measles. Lessons from the 1990 epidemic.
Chavez GF, Ellis AA.
West J Med. 1996 Jul-Aug;165(1-2):20-5.

Measles epidemic from failure to immunize.
Dales LG, Kizer KW, Rutherford GW, Pertowski CA, Waterman SH, Woodford G.
West J Med. 1993 Oct;159(4):455-64.

Impact of universal Haemophilus influenzae type b vaccination starting at 2 months of age in the United States: an economic analysis.
Zhou F, Bisgard KM, Yusuf HR, Deuson RR, Bath SK, Murphy TV.
Pediatrics. 2002 Oct;110(4):653-61.

Impact of specific medical interventions on reducing the prevalence of mental retardation.
Brosco JP, Mattingly M, Sanders LM.
Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2006 Mar;160(3):302-9. Review.

Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.
Ray P, Hayward J, Michelson D, Lewis E, Schwalbe J, Black S, Shinefield H, Marcy M, Huff K, Ward J, Mullooly J, Chen R, Davis R; Vaccine Safety Datalink Group.
Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.

Childhood vaccinations, vaccination timing, and risk of type 1 diabetes mellitus.
DeStefano F, Mullooly JP, Okoro CA, Chen RT, Marcy SM, Ward JI, Vadheim CM, Black SB, Shinefield HR, Davis RL, Bohlke K; Vaccine Safety Datalink Team.
Pediatrics. 2001 Dec;108(6):E112.

Pediatrics. 2010 Jun;125(6):1134-41. Epub 2010 May 24.
On-time vaccine receipt in the first year does not adversely affect neuropsychological outcomes.
Smith MJ, Woods CR.

J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S210-5.
Measles hospitalizations, United States, 1985-2002.
Lee B, Ying M, Papania MJ, Stevenson J, Seward JF, Hutchins SS.
Epidemiology Program Office, and National Immunization Program, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, Georgia 30333, USA.

J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S69-77.
Acute measles mortality in the United States, 1987-2002.
Gindler J, Tinker S, Markowitz L, Atkinson W, Dales L, Papania MJ.
National Center on Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, Georgia, USA.

J Infect Dis. 2005 Nov 15;192(10):1686-93. Epub 2005 Oct 12.
Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis: more cases of this fatal disease are prevented by measles immunization than was previously recognized.
Bellini WJ, Rota JS, Lowe LE, Katz RS, Dyken PR, Zaki SR, Shieh WJ, Rota PA.
Respiratory and Enteric Viruses Branch, National Center for Infectious Diseases, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, Georgia 30333, USA.


WOW! 108 references (more or less)! And you read all of them too. You did, didn't you?

Save your time on a response to me, I will not be back to this site.

You know, if some stranger came into my house and vomited all over the floor, I'd make them clean up the mess. You should at least stick around and do the same.

By T. Bruce McNeely (not verified) on 09 Dec 2010 #permalink

Oh fantastic - he comes here claiming that vaccines are dangerous, and that we've never looked at any data with regards to vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children, and suggests an unethical study, then pulls a shitload of studies out as if he has any credibility. Protip: maybe you could cite more recent data, because I don't even see a single study dated in the last ten years. In fact, there's a disturbing number of studies you threw out that are dated in the 60's and 70's. Compare to Chris's list, where the majority of them listed were published in the last decade. You don't even get a fucking 'A' for effort.

Honestly, is this the best the anti-vax community can muster?


Honestly, is this the best the anti-vax community can muster?

Yep. It kind of goes to show how they aren't even honest about their level of "research." Plus they will take legitimate research and massage the results to their agenda. One big lie they like to use is that SIDS in Japan went away after they stopped using the DTP vaccine. Actually, it did not go away and more babies died from actually getting pertussis, but they could not blame a vaccine that was not given.

Here is an article about their honesty I came upon when I first encountered these folks while using a phone modem:

The first set called "Dispelling Vaccination Myths" was by a law student Alan Phillips, who is not a real lawyer who still lies about vaccines.

Then they conveniently forget history, or rewrite it. Here is an analysis of some graphs, it shows some interesting tweaking of the data:

Then when confronted about the lies, they will often do a "Brave Sir Robin" and run away. Just like Matt did.

Good ol' Mark Twain said it best: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." (Technically he attributed the phrase to Benjamin Disraeli but there's no evidence Disraeli ever said it.)

Did you notice how many of Matt's articles were about vaccinia? News flash, Matt: we don't vaccinate against smallpox anymore. Vaccinia was a nasty disease in its own right, and one of many great things about the eradication of smallpox is that doctors didn't have to infect children with vaccinia anymore. So bringing up old articles about smallpox (Cotton Mather???) in a discussion of 21st Century vaccination is kind of silly.

Also, I didn't see any sources in Matt's second Gish Gallop, which makes it kind of hard to evaluate their quality.

I went looking for where Matt got that list, and then I noticed he posted another list. A list looked a bit too familiar. So I searched for and discovered he posted it here a month ago. I see he did not hang around long enough to see that it was completely trashed as garbage.

Doing a search on a section of the first list, I see the first hit is everybody's favorite pig farmer, John Scudamore's whale site! And you know what this means... time for Scopie's Law:

In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing as a credible source loses you the argument immediately ...and gets you laughed out of the room.

There we now know why Matt is insulted: because he is thermonuclear stupid!

I always toss these lists into google to see where they come from. I cannot remember the last time this method did not result in a few hits. It really demonstrates the lack of independent thought of these people. They are constantly tossing around lists of papers to each other but few ever appear to even look at the abstracts. It is just something to throw at people they disagree with.

Though this poster seems to be even worse than others if they are posting it mltiple times on the same site and ignoring any of the follow up comments. What a loser.

I've recently learned that there's never been a parachuted/unparachuted doubleblind study - all evidence that parachutes are safe and effective is anecdotal or based on the fact that deaths from falls from great heights declined around the parachutes were invented. Yet this is probably due to improved nutrition making people more resistant to falls, not to parachutes, which are known to cause broken bones, and severe muscle strain. Though some people would claim that a parachuted/unparachuted study is "unethical" that's obviously a cover study put out by "Big Para." Please write to me if you'd like to volunteer yourself or your children for my study - half the people in the study will be provided a parachute, while the other half (randomly selected) will be given a placebo (a backpack with a healthy lunch), and all participants will then participate in everyday wing-walking activities. I hope to hear from you soon.

@Matt: Since you did not answer the question, I take you do not have data to support your claim that the rise in autism diagnoses is definitely not an artifact. NOTE: I'm not asking for a laundry list of references that, in all likelihood, don't actually support your assertions. One paragraph arguing your position in a convincing manner, along with short paper references, would do.

They write off the parents of vaccine injured children as Jenny Mcarthy fanatics.

That's because actual vaccine injuries are few and far between, and the vast majority of parents who think their children's condition is a result of "vaccine injury" have been misled into believing that by McCarthy or someone equally ignorant/unethical.

What Matt seems to be suggesting -- that we should take seriously the scientifically unsupported suggestion that autism spectrum disorders are "vaccine injuries" simply because "parents of vaccine injured children" have convinced themselves they are -- is circular logic.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 09 Dec 2010 #permalink