Desiree Jennings "cured" of her "vaccine-induced dystonia"?

Remember how I promised that I'd do my next installment of my blogging Suzanne Somers' pile of idiocy, namely her own book, before the end of the week?

Plans change, and neurons melt, which they did in response to reading the first several chapters of Suzanne Somers' book.

Don't worry, though. I'll definitely try to get back on track with my--shall we say?--extended multipart review by Monday. Sometimes, though, when you're blogging, news drives what you do, and news is driving my decision to forego the pleasure and pain of the next installment of my "fun with Suzanne Somers" series, at least for a couple of days. What, you may ask, was so important that I delayed this most important project, a project that strikes home more than most, given that I treat breast cancer for a living?

It's the Desiree Jennings story again.

You remember Desiree Jennings? She's the young woman who received a seasonal flu vaccine in August and later developed what is being represented as dystonia but is almost certainly not. The other day, her VAERS database report was found, which casts even more doubt on her story, given that the neurologist who examined her when she presented concluded that there was a strong psychogenic component to whatever it was that was wrong with her. What has been brought to my attention is that, after promoting Jennings as evidence that the flu vaccine is harmful, deleting its page asking for donations for her, and then deciding to support her again, it looks as though Generation Rescue is going full mental jacket in supporting her again. Indeed, it looks as though GR has hooked Jennings up with a character I've discussed numerous times on this blog. More on that later. In the meantime, check out her website, where she tells her story and touting her "cure":

Had I known the full risks of my own flu shot back in August ... had I been properly educated ... I may have never suffered the painful consequences. Even more importantly, after I got injured, I felt I was written off by most of the medical community simply because they couldn't figure out what was truly wrong.

Now, I want to make sure you get the education you need in the coming weeks and months. I will be speaking more candidly about my treatment with the help of my Doctor who is assisting in my recovery.

Uh-oh. Who is this doctor? Take a guess. No, it's not a competent doctor. Indeed, it's a doctor who has gotten in a lot of trouble with his medical board. He's known for urine injection therapy, among other things, and has charged tens of thousands of dollars to apply his quackery to cancer patients. Do you know of whom I speak yet? Longtime readers, I bet, can guess.

Yes, I'm talking about "Dr." Rashid Buttar, Woo-meister Supreme, who once referred to the North Carolina Medical Board as "rabid dogs" for daring to have the temerity to tell him that he should practice according to the standard of care. This is what Desiree has to say about her supposedly being on the road to recovery:

After having her life turned upside down by a routine influenza shot, and discharged by three major hospitals after four visits - despite worsening symptoms - Desiree Jennings is finally making great strides in her recovery. The vibrant, 25-year-old Washington Redskins Cheerleader Ambassador has a website to tell her story and keep well-wishers from around the world informed of her progress as well as to promote "true informed consent."

Jennings was training for a half marathon in August 2009 when she received her seasonal flu shot, something she had done several years before. This time, however, her reaction was severe and debilitating. Over the course of several weeks she lost the ability to walk or talk normally, and began to suffer violent seizures and recurrent blackouts.

Jennings was misdiagnosed multiple times with a variety of diagnoses since receiving the influenza shot, which she thought would protect her from illness. She has since been diagnosed by her treating physician, Dr. Rashid A. Buttar, with a number of conditions including but not limited to Acute, Viral Post Immunization Encephalopathy and Mercury Toxicity with secondary respiratory and neurological deficits.

Of course he did. That's what he diagnoses everyone with, pretty much, other than his cancer patients.

And, making the rounds on various quack discussion forums is this breathless e-mail:

I am sending this message out regarding breaking news regarding the Redskin Cheerleader Desiree Jennings. It has not aired yet, but much IS YET TO COME on CNN, Fox News, London Times, 20/20 and major press releases EVERYWHERE!

Desiree is the Redskin Cheerleader who 10 days after receiving the flu shot became neurologically impaired with a diagnosis of Dystonia. John Hopkins as well as another hospital had confirmed this was indeed induced by the flu vaccine she recently received. I have put some you tubes in chronological order of her events, so if you have been following her story, just skip the 1st two you tubes.

Desiree was spotted by Generation Rescue and led to Dr. Rashid Buttar for treatments. When Desiree arrived last Monday to Dr. Buttarâ¢'s clinic, she was having seizures every 45-60 seconds, every 15-30 seconds her breathing stopped, and she had to be carried into the clinic due to rapid progression of her declining health. Desiree was unable to talk and her whole system was shutting down. 36 hours after removing the toxicity from her body, her symptoms are REVERSED!

This story is AMAZING and there is going to be major press release as camera crews where present documenting it all. Tears were shed amongst Desiree and her husband as she bounced back, and amongst the staff in the clinic as they witnessed her health returning back, from chelation. It was a glorious event witnessed by all!

Thanks to Generation Rescue for the rescue of the century and guiding Desiree to Dr. Buttar!

Detox. It had to be detox. Because, you know, the horrific "toxins" in the flu vaccine so damaged Jennings' central nervous system that she exhibited a set of symptoms that don't fit with any known disease or condition. Moreover, the story has morphed from Jennings merely being unable to speak and having all these jerky movements to having seizures every minute and having her breathing stop two or three times a minute. Enter Dr. "urine injections R US" Buttar with one of his--what else?--chelation and "detoxification" regimens, and suddenly she's all well again! Or so says Dr. Rashid Buttar in an interview on a "health freedom" radio show by Robert Scott Bell. Or, at least, so says a happy Desiree Jennings:

The treatments with Dr. Buttar at the Center for Advanced Medicine and Clinical Research in Charlotte, NC are working, and the results are nothing short of amazing. Jennings can now walk and talk normally throughout the vast majority of the day and the seizures/convulsions have significantly decreased. Although her full recovery will take an undetermined amount of time, her family is now for the first time, convinced she will make a complete recovery. She is now more than ever, driven by a desire to educate others to be informed of the potential side effects caused by vaccines and prevent others from suffering a similar fate.

Of course she is. She's been converted. She now has a video in which she tells everyone how well she's doing:

When I first wrote about this story, I made a prediction. Actually, I made an "either or" prediction. I predicted that either doctors or practitioners recommended by Generation Rescue would use their usual quackery (i.e., "biomedical therapy" for "vaccine injury") to "treat" Ms. Jennings. There's no doubt that that's exactly what happened, and GR went for the big macher of "biomedical" woo-meisters, Dr. Rashid Buttar. It doesn't get much bigger than that in the biomedical world. I further predicted that, if Jennings' symptoms resolved spontaneously, which they appear to be doing, both she and GR would credit her fortune to whatever quackery she was being subjected to. My alternative prediction was that, given the increasing evidence coming out that Jennings' condition was not true dystonia and had, at the very least, a strong psychogenic overlay, the anti-vaccine movement would let her story fade away. Indeed, that was what it appeared to be doing, given that the page on Generation Rescue's website asking for donations for Jennings had disappeared without a trace (other than the Google cache, of course).

Apparently in response to all the criticism, someone at GR apparently decided that the best defense is a good offense. (And who's more offensive than j.B. Handley?) That good offense is what we're seeing now. Jennings' website is slick and clearly professionally designed. It's doubtful that she could afford to put together such a website, much less the well-produced video that is being shown. I also predicted that, if and when Jennings' almost certainly psychogenic dystonia spontaneously resolves, the anti-vaccine movement will declare victory and use that resolution as "evidence" that her dystonia was due to "vaccine injury." That is exactly what appears to be happening right now. It looks almost as dramatic as a faith healing. As I said before, I do not think that she is faking, and "psychogenic" doesn't mean that she can control her symptoms. She is indeed suffering, I'm sure.

Unfortunately, suffering or not, psychogenic dystonia or true dystonia, this unfortunate young woman is being used by the anti-vaccine movement, and it sickens me.I hadn't realized just how cynical the anti-vaccine movement would be. Even in my wildest imaginings, I wouldn't have predicted that they'd have chosen Dr. Rashid Buttar as the woo-meister who would "cure" Jennings. After all, he's the same guy who has promoted, among other quackery, urine injections. He's the same guy who has charged cancer patients obscene amounts of money for his quackery and made unbelievable promises. Now that's chutzpah!

In retrospect, I now realize that I underestimated the sheer cynicism of Generation Rescue and J.B. Handley, the sheer will to exploit an unfortunate woman whose disorder, whatever it is (physiologic or psychogenic), almost certainly has nothing to do with the flu vaccine and, even if it did, would be such a rare reaction as not to be a signficant concern compared to the risk of not being vaccinated. They're going to milk this for all it's worth, complete with a "recovery story" testimonial that will appear superficially convincing. Indeed, Jennings' website is already garnering sponsors like OxyHealth, which makes portable hyperbaric oxygen chambers, and RevitaPop, some sort of supplement in the form of a lollipop that apparently believers in woo feed their autistic kids. Unfortunately, a whois search failed to find who owns the domain name, but I'd bet money that Generation Rescue or someone from Generation Rescue bought the domain name and set up this website for her. It and the ever-despicable Rashid Buttar are exploiting this poor woman for their own ends. Probably, Jennings doesn't know what she's bought into, and I doubt she knows just how badly this could end.

You know, also in retrospect, I think that maybe I should have stuck with my original plan to deconstruct Suzanne Somers' book some more. It would have irritated me less.

ADDENDUM: Steve Novella has also commented. As a neurologist, he made perhaps the most cogent observation about the whole Buttar affair:

But, unknowingly, Dr. Buttar was about to administer what can be considered a significant test of the hypothesis that Jennings' symptoms are psychogenic. One test we can use to help confirm this diagnosis is to see if the patient's symptoms can respond to psychological treatments or to medical treatments that should not otherwise be capable of reversing the symptoms. A response that is too quick to be plausible, for example, is one type of response that supports a psychogenic diagnosis. One dramatic example from my own experience was a patient with apparently psychogenic symptoms who believed that he needed a specific IV medication as a treatment. After extensive negative workup, we agreed to give him the treatment, and his symptoms completely resolved even before the medicine had a chance to work its way through the IV tubing and into his arm.

If Jennings really had dystonia or any biological brain injury from toxicity, removing the toxin might prevent further progression and allow the slow process of recovery to begin. But brain damage does not immediately reverse itself once the cause is removed. It is possible for dystonia to be a side effect of certain medications, and it can immediately resolve once that medication is stopped or reversed. But in that situation we are dealing with an effect of an active blood level of a pharmaceutical agent - something which is inherently reversible. We are not dealing with damage or injury.

[...]

However, now Jennings herself, and Dr. Buttar, report that Jennings began to improve while still sitting in the chair and receiving her chelation therapy, and within 36 hours her symptoms were completely gone. First, let me say that I am very happy Ms. Jennings' symptoms have resolved. Hopefully now she can just go on with her life. But to me, this impossibly rapid recovery is a dramatic confirmation that her symptoms were psychogenic to begin with. It is simply implausible that brain injury from mercury toxicity could be reversed so quickly - especially when you consider that Dr. Buttar had Jennings at death's door.

Indeed. The story being spread by Dr. Buttar about her dramatic improvement is excellent evidence that Desiree Jennings' dystonia was almost certainly psychogenic all along. Her recovery was too miraculously fast to be plausible especially if she appeared as sick as is being reported, even if the snake oil Dr. Buttar administered had a real physiological effect on her nervous system.

Like Steve, I'm glad that Desiree Jennings is apparently recovering, whatever the reason. Hopefully she can get back to her normal life. But I roundly condemn Generation Rescue and Dr. Buttar for their cynical exploitation of this vulnerable young woman. Given J. B. Handley's history, I have to wonder if they would have gone so far to promote this story if Ms. Jennings had been a 25-year-old average-looking man, rather than a beautiful 25-year-old woman who was also an NFL cheerleader.

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While I'm glad she's feeling better, that feeling is tempered by the knowledge that the pro-disease people will lift her up as an example for years to come.

Wow - that didn't take long. I thought that they would at least hang out until Thanksgiving was over and make this a Christmas miracle as well. Call me cynical, but I call Balloon Girl on this whole thing.

Yes, desiree is on the road to recovery..I know how this must upset you. Youd prefer she remained dystonic, or recovered 'spontaneously'...Pity!

BUT at leasrt this story has shown the cupidity, stupidity and heartlessess of the medical profession, as well as bloggers like those on science(?)blogs.

The portions you quoted do sound superficially convincing. There is the emotional appeal; an argument from personal experience, so if anyone contradicts her, the GR folks can shout "you're calling her a liar?!?!"; a doctor (and a brave maverick, at that) is involved. Gotta say, it is a well-produced PR piece.

'Yes, I'm talking about Dr. Rashid Buttar, Woo-meister Supreme, who once referred to the North Carolina Medical Board as "rabid dogs" for daring to have the temerity to tell him that he should practice according to the standard of care'

The standard of medical care , Desiree knows all full well...it gave her DYSTONIA. Shes been cured by Dr Rashid. The rabid dogs however, could only wail and gnash their teeth at this cure. They should all be struck off the medical board they dominate.

Oh Brian, why do you waste your time in reading anything? Just post your comments, and save yourself the wasted time in reading stuff you neither understand nor care about.

BUT at leasrt this story has shown the cupidity, stupidity and heartlessess of the medical profession, as well as bloggers like those on science(?)blogs.

Yes, how shameful of us to speak out against lying and fraud.

By T. Bruce McNeely (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

Does this happen if you eat Tuna also? Doesn't that have lots of mercury? I should stop eating the chicken of the sea... but it's just so tasty.

'While I'm glad she's feeling better, that feeling is tempered by the knowledge that the pro-disease people will lift her up as an example for years to come.'

You must be conflicted, Hank. Your faith in doctors has run up against a wall of Desiree's doctor induced illness...Pro-disease? You are pro-disease, Dr Buttar is pro-cure.

Please dont pretend you care for Desiree...You dont.

"The standard of medical care , Desiree knows all full well...it gave her DYSTONIA. Shes been cured by Dr Rashid. The rabid dogs however, could only wail and gnash their teeth at this cure. They should all be struck off the medical board they dominate."

As they say on Wikipedia [[citation needed]]

Orac and others of the medical faithful need citations...Im happy Desiree is on the road to recovery..you are not...History Punk indeed!

Orac Said "I hadn't realized just how cynical the anti-vaccine movement would be."

This is the same reaction I had. I had been giving the AoA and GR a very very small measure of slack because at the end of the day their goal is to help kids. But the lengths they have gone to in this story to make sure that vaccines are vilified is just bizarre. The contortions of logic needed to somehow justify that this helps kids with autism is astounding.

By superdave (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

pHred,

I was thinking the exact same thing. I do risk sounding insenstive, but I really want to call b.s. on all of this.

" (And who's more offensive than j.B. Handley?) "

Orac?

By This is too mu… (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

I must say, I'm impressed with the level of trolling on this thread. brian, while annoying, is, so far, much less crazy than some of the others we've seen recently.
I wonder-since brian showed up so quickly after Orac's post, was he waiting for it? Could brian just be a paid shill from Generation Rescue? Or maybe Dr. Rashid?
I mean, now that they've engineered this whole "she's sick, she's cured, it's all real medicine's fault!" hoax, maybe sending out professional trolls is part of the whole thing.

By LibraryGuy (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

Brian, let me introduce you to your logical fallacy:
Correlation = causation , meet Brian.
In other words, Brian, if you got a flu shot and then were run down by a truck and suffered a broken leg, you would then be here telling people that flu shots cause broken legs.

Rashid Buttar is a quack, pure and simple.
Come on now, injecting people with urine ?
Chelation for mercury poisoning, when there wouldn't have been enough mercury in that shot to cause any symptoms ?

I guess I gotta stop sucking on those old-school thermometers too.

Apparently, the flu vaccine has 25,000x the amount of mercury of your tasty chicken o' the sea:
http://thebirdflupandemic.com/archives/the-swine-flu-vaccine-contains-2…

I especially like the part that charges you to "please take the time to hear what both sides are saying" because all I hear is "don't listen to them, listen to me."

By Rebecca 2 (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

Remember, LibraryGuy, that professional trolls are only paid for by the horribly evil Big Medicinetm lobby.

Is there any way to find out if she had one of the "non-mercury" influenza shots? That would make a laughing stock out of her new doctor's diagnosis.

Brian, considering that her symptoms have magically morphed from difficulty walking to being close to death in a mere one press release, you may want to wonder who is lying and dishonest here.
It wouldn't really be difficult for her new doctor to cure her of being close to death when she never actually was. Or is this your idea of a miracle perhaps?

By Richard Eis (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

Nope actually the blacking out has appeared in other news reports. So I stand corrected on that.

By Richard Eis (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

DLC #16:
Actually I have no problem believing that a flu shot, with all the hysteria these tools have produced over the last year, could in fact cause a psychogenic problem.

Richard Eis,
I didnt think that any of the flu shots were thimerisol free in america.

Trolls,

Why didnt this happen any other time she got a flu shot (her site claims previous flu shots)

Why doesnt a can of tuna cause this same problem?

Why do proven placebo treatments work so well on psychogenic disorders?

Given that every outlet of medicine (CDC, FDA, AMA, science bloggers) all accept and acknowledge that in extremely rare instances vaccines do cause severe reactions (even if this is not one of them), why do you think this story makes a lick of difference with regard to the efficacy and promotion of vaccines? Even if this story weren't complete bunk, it still wouldn't matter.

Go back and research what happened with the 1976 vaccines. a causation was actually found, BY THE MEDICAL ESTABLISHMENT, between flu vaccines and GuillainâBarré syndrome, a one in a million chance (now) and may have affected only 500 people (out of the millions of shots given and protecting millions of people). Keep in mind GBS shows up, vaccinated or not, in about 1 in 100K people. Its amazing they even detected that causation and you should be thanking them for actually studying these effects then, as they do now.

OK enough troll feeding.

"When I first wrote about this story, I made a prediction. Actually, I made an 'either or' prediction."

Your prediction, while accurate as far as it went, was incomplete. You failed to take into account the miraculous healing power of a potential lawsuit and large cash settlement. This story is far from over.

@TechSkeptic

I didnt think that any of the flu shots were thimerisol free in america.

The only flu shots that have thimerosal are the multi-dose vials. The single-dose versions are thimerosal-free, as are the live-attenuated nasal spray vaccines. And none of the flu shots being given out in the U.S. have any adjuvants.

-Does the influenza vaccine contain thimerosal?

Yes, the majority of influenza vaccines distributed in the United States currently contain thimerosal as a preservative. However, some contain only trace amounts of thimerosal and are considered by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) to be preservative-free. Manufacturers of preservative-free flu vaccine use thimerosal early in the manufacturing process. The thimerosal gets diluted as the vaccine goes through the steps in processing. By the end of the manufacturing process there is not enough thimerosal left in the vaccine to act as a preservative and the vaccine is labeled "preservative-free"-

Not that that would convince any antivaccine adherent the vaccine was "free" of thimerasol. Some of them are probably into homeopathy so technically this would appear to make it stronger.

By Richard Eis (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

@Richard Eis

Not that that would convince any antivaccine adherent the vaccine was "free" of thimerasol. Some of them are probably into homeopathy so technically this would appear to make it stronger.

But if they took a homeopathic approach while believing that mercury causes autism, then would this mean that the vaccine would prevent autism? After all, homeopathy supposedly works by taking a substance which causes the same or similar symptoms, dilluting and shaking it down, then administering the end result.

a true cynic would suggest you may have been correct on both predictions. Is it possible that Generation Rescue dumped Desiree Jennings, only to pick her up again when she started to show progress?

No less cynical than the speculations made by anti-vaccine groups all the time.

I am pro-vaccine. I understand that vaccines carry some risks, and I understand that the diseases they prevent carry far more risks. I have actually (despite my better judgement) listened to both sides of this issue. I would agree with most pro-vaccine opinions in that there should not even be a categorical issue here. The facts, as opposed to dogma, support the efficacy of vaccination and thus, naturally, the tenacity of anti-vaxxers. What I am about to say does NOT reflect the opinions of anyone I know in the medical or scientific field. Please understand that I alone am to blame for the following opinion:

Two things come to mind, one is an observation, the other a suggestion.

1) I agree with Orac that the anti-vaxxer movement is uncompromisingly cynical. I have observed, however, that their cynicism has started to rub off on the rest of us. This is a tacit admission. I do not agree with their movement, but from a purely philosophical point of view, how are our convictions now any less cynical? We are arguably "right"... we have real evidence on our side, and thus do not feel justified in mocking the truth to substantiate our position. Yet, because of this, we refuse to credit what we consider to be cataclysmic stupidity and ethical negligence. Obviously. I count this as cynicism, because I refuse to credit their opinions as anything other than quackery. Should some parody of truth reveal that they were right all along, and thus switch this conflict from parody to tragedy, my own cynicism would have proven to be in error. In this hypothetical situation, I would be guilty of murder. My desire NOT to be responsible for mass homicide is what drives my cynicism in the face of what I consider to be the utmost absurdity. In fact, I am now so cynical that I am moved to make the following suggestion:

2) I recommend that, in direct opposition to our conscience, we no longer try to fight them. I suggest that we concede, utterly. Allow me to explain. One cannot reason with Crazy. One can only set an example, provide evidence, suggest a course of action, and adhere to it themselves. I suggest we let the anti-vaxxers run amok, and give them the freedom to convince as many poor souls as possible that they should not vaccinate their children, or themselves. With time, population density, and their own conviction, they will likely die in a pandemic. While this is surely a horribly cynical and irresponsible suggestion, it would be their choice. They would retain their freedom to choose, and die off in the process. While they die, we can turn our attention to solving the real causes of autism, be it gene therapy, pathology, or other. Why waste our time trying to convince them that the world is round, when we can spend that time doing something more constructive? I am personally willing to take responsibility for this, because I believe that arguing with them not only robs us of time and desire, it may actually be making the problem worse. How many normal, otherwise sane people would be influenced into giving the anti-vaxxers credit, not by their flogging, but by ours? If I was ignorant, and saw two sides in open and violent opposition, I would suspect the issue to have validity, even where there is none. This seems to be their MO. Let them take responsibility for themselves, and pay the price for it. By providing the evidence, we've done all we can. To fight them is to credit them. I suggest we save lives by ignoring them, so that those who are free to decide do not feel compelled to give credence to a choice that could kill them and their children. There will always be Brian's, and McCarthy's, and Rashid Buttar's. Yes, we would be condemning many to a pointless death. But if we work fast enough, and spend less time giving them ammo, we might not only avoid convincing people to give them credit, we might find a solution in time to save more people from the threat they use to justify their actions. The mantra for both sides is, "We are right, obviously". And when confronted with near-religious conviction in the face of cold reality, attacking a deeply seated belief is not going to solve any problems. The worst that can happen is that they all die. The second is that they are right, and we have to live with being wrong. The best is that we are right, and we divert our expenditure of effort from cynicism to success. We cannot save anyone who does not wish to be saved through force. Neither can they. Let's let them be. Blame me for these terrible words, as I am responsible for them.
-David Scheidler

Rebbecca 2, 1 doctor's statement on a fox news show does not reality make. Look here http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=114299697 and here http://www.thecitizen.com/archive/main/archive-050302/pt-05_mercury.html The vaccine with the highest thimerosal content contains about as much mercury as a can of tuna, but keep in mind that that is ethyl mercury and not the more dangerous methyl mercury found in fish. Finally look here http://www.cdc.gov/Flu/about/qa/thimerosal.htm

*headslap* Of course.
but...
(continuing on this complete silliness and unreality)
I doubt their offical books have mercury as causing said symptoms (and you don't argue with The Book's authority).

It does however prevent ulcers apparently. And since she didn't have ulcers it thus shows that it also works as a preventative

By Richard Eis (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

This reminds me of the "Under Our Skin" trailer--a lot of the people report being told it's "all in their head." I wonder if some of them had a psychogenic disorder. I have never brought myself to rent the movie, but when I saw the trailer I really, really wanted to know what all the people really had.

Is there any way to find out if she had one of the "non-mercury" influenza shots? That would make a laughing stock out of her new doctor's diagnosis.

Assuming the vaers report is hers, she got fluzone, a vaccine with thimerosal.

This makes it impossible that she got the flu 10 days later from the shot. She probably did have the flu, just not from the vaccine.

The "we vs them" isn't what it used to be. Several of the nurses at my facility don't trust vaccines. Several MDs (Jay Gordon) don't trust them either.

It's hard to share a patient with an anti-vax colleague.

There is one problem with your solution ENT-TT.

Herd immunity.

It also doesn't seemed to have dampened the creation scientists enthusiasm for prayer, nor left them extinct.

By Richard Eis (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

The only flu shots that have thimerosal are the multi-dose vials. The single-dose versions are thimerosal-free, as are the live-attenuated nasal spray vaccines. And none of the flu shots being given out in the U.S. have any adjuvants.

Thanks. In that case, I sure do like Richard Eis' idea.

Here's the difference between real doctors and quacks.

The real docs admit when they don't know what it is and attach labels like psychogenic etc and are told well maybe it will just resolve itself. To the patient this comes across as heartless and callous because they don't have the answer and thus they are "written off by the medical community".

The quack says "just swipe your credit card here and we can start the treatment right away". This is what the patient wants to hear, give me a pill doc to make the pain go away. It's a sugar pill or lots of hand waving and unproven "therapies" but lo and behold the symptoms go away anyway if they are lucky.

One last point, "10 days after the shot" that's almost immediately after she did 10 days of other things!!!!!

By Sir Eccles (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

What a horrible, cynical, inaccurate, mean-spirited post, David.

Where specifically was it inaccurate. Or did you just do a drive by trolling Dr. Jay?

What a horrible, cynical, inaccurate, mean-spirited post

"Horrible" and "mean-spirited" are value judgements so I won't ask you to back them objectively, but what part did you find inaccurate?

Dr. Gordon,

Are you suggesting, then, that Dr. Buttar is right, and his rather odd diagnoses are accurate?

And you believe a person was having seizures every minute and having trouble breathing, and two days later thanks to completely unproven treatments had her symptoms reversed?

(I wonder why a person who had such horrible symptoms wasn't in a hospital, but I digress.)

In other words, Jay, you're really buying all of this?

What a horrible, cynical, inaccurate, mean-spirited post, David.

Yes, why don't you tell us what you believe is inaccurate about it?

By Joseph C. (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

Hate to say this, but this "treatment" might be the only way she was going to recover. Not because of the chelation and other woo, but because an authoritative figure whom she trusted said, "I will CURE you." And then her psychosomatic illness disappeared, because she no longer believed she had it. It'd be nice if her placebo weren't quite so dangerous and expensive, but at least she's better.

Just casually playing around with numbers here, which may not reflect what happens from food source to body Hg levels, but is still fun to do.

At 25,000x the mercury that is considered safe if it were a food product, then in Canada, 0.5 ppm is the limit for mercury in tuna. Multiply that by 25,000 and you have 12,500 ppm. People with Minamata disease had levels of 705 ppm. If you eat food with 12,500 ppm of Hg I think you'd be in trouble even if only a small portion of it was absorbed into the body. And if vaccines actually injected that much I suspect we'd have bodies lying around injection sites world-wide, wouldn't we?

That news clip doc says he's seen 100x Hg serum levels. Around the Great Lakes blood serum levels in one study were about 3 micrograms/L. I imagine at 300 micrograms/L you'd be experiencing some pretty nasty consequences (400 micrograms/L is renal failure according to the one journal article I saw which was just looking at 1 patient).

Funny how foods like tuna are yanked off the shelves if they exceed the 0.5 ppm yet no agency is doing the same with vaccines that have 25,000x the recommended level of Hg. I guess the food industry just doesn't have the clout of big bad pharma, and its employees are not trustworthy enough to keep the conspiracy to themselves. Too bad. Just think of all the Hg laden-tuna they could sell instead of having to throw away.

By Daniel J. Andrews (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

My previous post was in response to the link at 17

By Daniel J.Andrews (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

What a horrible, cynical, inaccurate, mean-spirited post, David.

Jay

From what I can see, this is a post condemning the exploitation of a young woman with a conversion reaction for the purpose of promoting falsehoods and quackery.

Please explain what is so horrible, cynical, inaccurate and mean-spirited, for the benefit of us Oracolytes.

By T. Bruce McNeely (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

At least not all medical personnel are as close minded as Orac. The story below is about an open minded doctor who is recommending an alternative medical treatment. An alternative meidical treatment that even Orac will have a hard time debunking.

It is especially intriguing that the treatment involves asthma given the past conversations in this blog about the true causes of asthma. I wonder if certain hard headed blog participants will rethink their attitudes on asthma in light of the information found in this story
-----

"I donât often write about alternative remedies for serious medical conditions. Most have little more than anecdotal support, and few have been found effective in well-designed clinical trials. Such trials randomly assign patients to one of two or more treatments and, wherever possible, assess the results without telling either the patients or evaluators who received which treatment.

Now, however, in describing an alternative treatment for asthma that does not yet have top clinical ratings in this country (although it is taught in Russian medical schools and covered by insurance in Australia), I am going beyond my usually stringent research criteria for three reasons:

The treatment, a breathing technique discovered half a century ago, is harmless if practiced as directed with a well-trained therapist.

It has the potential to improve the health and quality of life of many people with asthma, while saving health care dollars.

Iâve seen it work miraculously well for a friend who had little choice but to stop using the steroid medications that were keeping him alive. ....

Then, last spring, someone told him about the Buteyko method, a shallow-breathing technique developed in 1952 by a Russian doctor, Konstantin Buteyko. Mr. Wiebe watched a video demonstration on YouTube and mimicked the instructions shown.

âI could actually feel my airways relax and open,â he recalled. âThis was impressive."

Please explain what is so horrible, cynical, inaccurate and mean-spirited, for the benefit of us Oracolytes.

Don't worry: He won't. He never does. It makes one wonder if he really is the expert he positions himself as.

By Joseph C. (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

I've decided to renounce science based medicine in favor of unattributed anecdote as fact methodology. Added bonus, as you note, that it will save money. Dear asthmatics, watch you tube. That will cure you.

All I care about is that Desiree is getting better. She was the textbook example of a person who got royally screwed. I'm glad that she might get her life back.

@Jay
"What a horrible,"
Yes.
"cynical,"
Yes.
"inaccurate,"
Yes. I am not a scientist. I think like one, but I have no plausible credibility. You are absolutely right, Jay... Carry on.
"mean-spirited post"
Yes. Thank you, Jay.
May you live in conviction, and rest in peace.

@Richard Eis
Herd immunity? All the better. I'd rather they not all die, frankly. My conscience would be less burdensome, then. Should herd immunity actually work on this time-scale, then fewer lives will be wasted. As to creationists, whatever. They do not trouble me. I am happy to let them pray in peace, if it means they have a sense of wonder and reverence for such a complicated universe. I may not agree with them, but that is our mutual right. They haven't gone extinct because their are not inherently stupid. One person's learned trait is another's tool of selection. They, as we, are a fascinating animal. I am grateful that they exist. Viva la Differánce!

She could just as well have sought an exorcist, a shaman or a homeopath.

Thank you so much for this. I googled this case after reading an article on AOL.com about Ms. Jennings. I feel for her, but blaming the flu shot isn't helping anyone. I hope she has a full recovery and that these types of stories don't keep vulnerable populations from getting vaccinated.

BTW, there's evidence that chelation is an excellent placebo for people who think they are mercury poisoned (kind of a no-brainer.) See Grandjeanet al. (1997): "Placebo Response in Environmental Disease: Chelation Therapy of Patients With Symptoms Attributed to Amalgam Fillings." The study concludes:

These findings suggest that some patients with environmental illness may substantially benefit from placebo.

See also: Sandborgh et al. (1994).

Jay HaveItBothWays will never, of course, provide supporting, provable evidence for shit. Because that would be um...how real scientists and doctors do things. He's too busy sitting in his pyramid chanting, and getting in touch with his feelings to do anything involving science.

So she got vaccinated -- which I think most of the anti-vaccine crowd will agree has benefits in preventing illness and increasing immunity -- and *if we actually take these people at their word* got a condition from it, and then upon some form of treatment was *perfectly fine* again.

I'm still going to keep getting my shots. :P

This is OT, but I was wondering if Orac or commenters are familiar with Dr. Al Sears. I was forwarded one of his execrable adverts for some miracle Amazonian herb, Paullina cupana, that contains guaranine. He's also touting some supplement for boosting one's choline. I looked him up on Quackwatch and BadScience.net but came up empty handed. I pointed out the "quacky" characteristics of the ad, but if anyone can provide info on why these specific supplements are useless, I would be very appreciative.

By A. D. Kay (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

~Re. Jay Gordon, Orac and the ENT-TT David --
Seems to me that there was some confusion. I dislike defending Jay Gordon for anything, but in this case I suspect he may have been condemning the David who was the David of the ENT-TT comment, saying "let the anti-vaxxers have their way and let them die", rather than the Orac David.

Gordon can confirm that himself, if he has bothered to stick around.

David-who-is-ENT-TT: No, no, there is another problem with "herd immunity": the fact that some entirely sane people rely on it not to be exposed to things they can't be protected against otherwise. Newborns, patients in chemotherapy, and other immune-compromised people who cannot safely be given certain vaccinations, as well as those who actually get vaccinations but do not develop an adequate immunity, are all put at risk when a disease becomes endemic. So essentially, not only are you condemning a lot of children to death because of their parents' stupidity, you are condemning to death a large number of other people who have not done anything wrong at all along with them.

Cynical, horrible, wrong, misguided and disgusting.

And that is quite aside from the fact that it would change nothing; even back in the days when there was an extraordinary mortality from contagious diseases, there was a vocal antivaccination crowd.

So, no. And not just no, HELL no. To fight them is not to "credit" them any more than to let them run rampant through the media unopposed, and I to allow the body count that would result from NOT fighting them is absolutely unconscionable.

Adults may be responsible for their own stupidities and I'd be perfectly happy to let them face the consequences, but other innocent people, adults and children both, have an absolute right to be protected from stupidity that is not their own when it threatens their lives.

By Luna_the_cat (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

"Herd immunity? All the better. I'd rather they not all die, frankly."

I think Richard's point was that ignoring them and letting them "die off" has the consequence of lowering herd immunity and putting the REST of the population at risk, even if they've been vaccinated and especially if they were unable to be vaccinated. So lots of people who were trying to do the right thing by getting vaccinated would still get sick and possibly die by just letting the anti-vaxxers do their thing...

.....and apologies for some of the grammar in that last post of mine, towards the end. This place needs an edit function. :-/

By Luna_the_cat (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

All I care about is that Desiree is getting better.

I'm glad Ms Jennings is getting better. However, I don't think that that is all that matters with respect to this case. Ms Jennings received a biologically useless and potentially dangerous "treatment" for her psychosomatic illness.

Her example may trigger similar psychosomatic reactions in other vulnerable patients and may encourage them to seek the same "treatment". Eventually, one or more of them will be harmed or die of the uncontrolled chelation and whatever else the alties are pushing to "cure" the problem.

Additionally, her story may discourage others from getting flu shots, thus increasing the risk of an epidemic in the general population and specifically increasing the risk to people who can not receive the vaccine or in whom it is less effective (immunosuppressed, allergic to ingredient, etc.)

So while I have sympathy for Ms Jennings and I do NOT think she is making her symptoms up, I do not think her recovery is all that matters. The potential damage to others matters too.

And Luna said it so much better, lol :-)

Hah, most of the time I just read in here thinking how much better other people say things. :D

By Luna_the_cat (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

Actually, I don't think they're cynical. I think they are True Believers (TM), and really, truly believe that Jennings was horribly injured and that this doc was the only way to save her. Also, they are truly happy that she is better.

(The doc himself might be cynical...but he also may be a True Believer (TM).)

It's much harder to fight True Believers (TM). Because there is no rationality behind the belief in the connection...

Yes, Luna, my apologies. I do not think it right to allow innocents to die. To clarify, I was kidding about "herd immunity". I understand it to be a psychological justification from a fear response ("Maybe if we ignore it and stick together, the problem will go away. Maybe if I don't wash my hands, I'll develop sufficient immunity"). Nor do I wish anyone to act against their conscience. Text is a difficult medium in which to express sarcasm. On the other hand, I do think that we should spend more time researching than proselytizing. That said, while we each feel that we must stand by the truth, there are multiple methods for doing so. One is to fight fire with fire, and trip the dogmatics into perjuring themselves. Unfortunately, that doesn't usually work against ignorance - they'll just blithely carry on. Another method is to make them face their shame, which only works if they're open to the idea. I have no "solution", and I do not condone mass murder through negligence. Innocents are meant to be protected, to the best of our ability. But is it just as bad to enforce mandatory inoculation, if the parents' fear response is to do something even more negligent? _I_ don't have the right to say, frankly, because _I_ cannot accurately predict the outcome. If someone has a plausible projection, by all means share it; it could help. All I can do is explain calmly why I trust the evidence over the BS. Attacking them outright doesn't convince them to do the right thing. I have no solution to that particular problem.. do you? If so, what are the ramifications of your plan?
"Cynical, horrible, wrong, misguided and disgusting."
Well, yes. Admittedly. Maybe voicing that will indicate what's at stake, when all else fails to sway. My point wasn't to let a huge portion of the population die (likely even the vaccinated), it was to suggest that our own cynicism might be getting in the way of a resolution (as the cynicism of anti-vaxxers has already clearly demonstrated). Again, I have no solutions, only thoughts. If you (and anyone reading this) can convince someone to vaccinate their children, rather than pushing them further into questioning our motives, DO IT. If you feel like your opinion is falling on deaf ears, and risking the lives of those same children, then simply consider whatever options are available to you. Every innocent that dies from this, one way or another, WILL be on our conscience, because we are cognizant of what is at stake, and with that knowledge comes the responsibility for it, even if we thought we could wash our hands of it. I'm not suggesting culpability, merely the conscious awareness of what may be lost.

You people scoff at the idea of vaccine-related damage, but here's a tale that will impress even you hardened cynics.

Last night I chipped a tooth while eating peanuts. Not four weeks ago I had a seasonal flu shot. Coincidence? Well, consider this - a few years ago I chipped a tooth while chewing on a Lifesaver, and I'd had a seasonal flu shot only six months earlier. Once might be coincidence, but twice...well, you get my drift. It must be the thimerosal - or maybe the mercury in my fillings, I get confused.
I'm going to go see Dr. I-can't-believe-it's-Buttar and get my mercury poisoning post-vaccine syndrome diagnosis and we'll file a VAERS report. Then Generation Rescue will finance my new website (good site design doesn't come cheap, ya know) and I can start collecting ad money from toxin testing labs and supplement companies. Win-win! Or lose-win! Whatever.

Sorry TechSkeptic, but drive-by trolling is pretty much all Dr. Jay Gordon does these days. If he hung around for actual discussion, he'd face more questions about his alternate and changing criteria for which patients and parents deserve H1N1 flu vaccine protection, and how it is that he anticipates giving the vaccine to no one this year. Yoo-hoo Dr. Jay! How about some answers? Your ducking and running is getting embarassing.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

Omega - while there is some truth to what you say, I think it is a bit of a false dichotomy.

In situations like this I think the concept of bullshit (http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=286) applies. In other words - the anti-vaxers are not necessarily deliberately lying, and may in fact be true-believers, but they also do not care about scientific truth. Therefore their claims are not necessarily lies - just bullshit. They make stuff up, assume whatever is necessary, do not make an honest attempt to figure out what is really going on, dismiss contrary evidence and opinion, and they cut intellectual corners - all because they think they already "know" the truth.

What a horrible, cynical, inaccurate, mean-spirited post, David

We can argue whether it is "horrible," "cynical," or "mean-spirited" or not and never get anywhere because those are, as has been pointed out, value judgments. So let's stick to the facts. Please tell me specifically what is "inaccurate" about what I wrote. While you're at it, you might also want to read what Steve Novella wrote about this case:

http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1195

Please, Dr. Jay. Tell us what I wrote that was "inaccurate." If you can convince me with evidence that it was inaccurate, I would, of course, retract whatever error I may have made. While you're at it, you could tell us if anything Steve wrote is similarly "inaccurate." We're both very interested in accuracy, regardless of whether you think we're cynical, callous, or whatever.

As for the cynicism charge, let me just point out that whatever cynicism is in the post I wrote above (virtually none) is dwarfed by the monumental cynicism of Generation Rescue and Rashid Buttar exploiting this young woman.

sorry Orac, I think he meant David @27. right Jay?

Jay,
If you meant comment 34 as a response to ENT-TT, I apologize for the error. However, you did leave things open to confusion.
If you meant it as a response to the original post, then please disregard the above and consider my question.
Thanks.

By T. Bruce McNeely (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

Sorry Orac, I thought he was labeling me.. didn't know you were a David too. Either way, fie on that. And in all fairness, yes, their cynicism is of an entirely different nature and caliber than ours; I meant no disrespect. It just feels like we're preaching to the choir (if you'll pardon the euphemism), and that the evidence isn't getting through to the people who need to know, because they refuse to credit it. They'd rather feel good about their optimism than shoulder the frustrations of reality. Patting myself on the back doesn't make me feel any better about this. I'd rather they pop a clue.

I think Bill's probably right. David #27 even says he is being cynical, so it would not be a stretch for Dr. Jay to describe him that way. On the flip side, even with all the crazy things Dr. Jay has said in the comments of this blog, I can't see him reacting that way to this post. I think Orac has gone out of his way to avoid being "mean-spirited" in regards to the Jennings incident, and has shown a lot of compassion for this poor woman.

And I have to say, even though it appears Jennings is about to become the next poster boy (girl?) for the anti-vax movement, I don't feel the same sense of outrage towards her. Because her illness is so mysterious, we can't point to any particular data saying vaccines don't cause it. (In fact, in a weird way, since her illness is psychogenic, it's conceivable that the vaccination was related, just not in a physiological way) And having such a mysterious and debilitating condition, it's easier to see how someone could desperately grasp at straws. I just feel sorry for her... she's being exploited and manipulated. Very sad.

I publicly challenge Mr. Buttar (like they call "Mr." Offit) to walk on water. He will then have performed two miracles, one more verifiable than the other... The walking on water, I mean.

Some questions for AltMedWorks...

Iâve seen it work miraculously well for a friend who had little choice but to stop using the steroid medications that were keeping him alive...

Why did he have to stop using something that was working? Had he tried any other medications? I know someone who started using recently-developed athsma meds (Accolate, Singulair) and managed to become a LOT less dependent on steroid inhalers.

Then, last spring, someone told him about the Buteyko method, a shallow-breathing technique developed in 1952 by a Russian doctor, Konstantin Buteyko. Mr. Wiebe watched a video demonstration on YouTube and mimicked the instructions shown... âI could actually feel my airways relax and open,â he recalled. âThis was impressive."

This is really nothing new: learning to relax, reduce oxygen consumption, and breathe more smoothly can reduce the danger of airways constricting, especially when such reactions are brought on or exacerbated by stress in the first place. (Also, athsmatics are in the most danger when they first start having trouble, simply because they don't know why they suddenly can't breathe as easily, which causes them to panic, which means they run out of oxygen faster. Once they get a diagnosis and know what to expect, subsequent attacks aren't quite as bad...but they're still dangerous.)

In short, I strongly doubt you're telling us the whole story of how this ONE count him ONE patient managed to kinda-sorta beat athsma.

By Raging Bee (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

If Jay was referring the the ENT's comment, then I too join the band of folks who owe him a mean culpa, because I frankly agree that the comment was mean-spirited and cynical and not entirely accurate.

If he was referring to the actual blog post, then my comment above stands.

I publicly challenge Mr. Buttar (like they call "Mr." Offit) to walk on water.

You might want to set your parameters. Challenge him to walk on water with no greater than 1% impurities and at a temperature of 20 degrees C or greater. Otherwise, he'll have multiple ways to meet your challenge without fulfilling its spirit.

i read that chicken-of-the-sea doesn't contain actual chickens!

it contains mercury contaminated FISH!

where is truth in advertising????? i am never eating chicken-of-the-sea again!!!

i am also going to stop ordering girl scout cookies.

Buttar floats on water, doesn't it?

Sorry, I'm in the grip of Inevitable Pun Obsession.

By T. Bruce McNeely (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

Oh maybe that's why my can of Dr. Pepper is so quiet. All this time I just assumed he didn't take my insurance.

I got a flu shot last week. So did my wife. So did our daughter. We are all fine. Can someone now please set up a donation page for us so we can spread the word, via living example, that flu shots aren't harmful? Also, I could use the money for Christmas presents. My daughter is really cute, too, so we can totally exploit the whole "adorable" angle. Ka-ching, ka-ching, people! Who's with me?

It's unfortunate that the people who dropped dead for no apparent reason after receiving the vaccine cannot be helped with this therapy.

Basically Orac is giving more credence to the VAERS report than the doctors at Fairfax and John Hopkins who diagnosed her. How he is measuring who is 'more' correct is unknown.

The logic premise is dizzying. But, it's to be expected if he wants to continue to assist in propping up the industry and propaganda for the flu shot. No matter. Damage control on this topic is to be expected.

http://vactruth.com/2009/11/02/recipe-that-fosters-influenza-vaccine-in…

What is promising, though, is Orac looking at VAERS. It's a step in the right direction.

It's unfortunate that the people who dropped dead for no apparent reason after receiving the vaccine cannot be helped with this therapy.

Indeed. It's also unfortunate that the people who dropped dead for no apparent reason before receiving the vaccine cannot be helped with this therapy.

What's even more unfortunate is that the people who drop dead from the flu because they didn't get the vaccine also cannot be helped with this therapy.

And lastly, it's unfortunate that those suffering from the post hoc fallacy cannot be helped with this therapy.

An honour. Thank you.

@Jeffry

Do you have a link to a direct quote from the doctors that diagnosed her, including the doctors' names?

AltMedWorks

It's not up to Orac or anyone else to "Debunk" Bullshit like that, it's up to the people promoting it to prove it. The big problem with "Alternative" Medicine people is that they seem to believe "if one treatment I've taken seems to work for me, it will work for everyone in every situation!" or conversely "if one treatment works for me, then all treatments will work for anyone!".

Aaron, if the site is too new, it may not have had time to replicate across the different domains. Give it a couple of days, at most, and you'll be able to pull it up.

By For Aaron (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

"Basically Orac is giving more credence to the VAERS report than the doctors at Fairfax and John Hopkins who diagnosed her. How he is measuring who is 'more' correct is unknown."

As has been pointed out, we don't know what they actually diagnosed her with, and we don't know that the VAERS report isn't from one of them.

There's plenty "Dr's have said" and very little of her Dr's "actually saying".

My biggest objection to the peddlers of pseudoscience in the exploitation of general ignorance and human misery is not so much their poverty of spirit as their lack of style.

At least with a box of Dr. Hammond's Nerve and Brain tablets for the treatment of "Men's Special Diseases and All Disturbances of the Central Nervous System" you got a little smack and a floor show before you died.

Dr. Buttar may have scienterrifialy cured her toxinaliticity inducinated yips and ick but she might die of boredom listening to his explanation of what spell and magnets configuration was applied.

At least hire a geek and a ragtime band.

By Prometheus (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

@Dedj

Exactly. That's why I asked Jeffry for a link to where the diagnosis is quoted from the doctors who made the diagnosis, and in which the doctors are named. BTW, still waiting for that, Jeffry.

Jeffry - Why have we not heard from a Johns Hopkins physician backing up her story of linking her condition with the flu shot?

@89

When vactruth.com links to something, it's the antivax spin that invokes Scopie's Law, not the content linked to. But, then, you already knew that.

I've not been able to find a direct reference that indicates JH holds inpatient beds, but given that it holds a high-level trauma centre, and registers at nearly 1000 beds, it's safe to say that it's possible DJ may have hed her first admissal (the VAERS admissal) there.

Regardless of this speculation (you'll notive that I call it speculation), there is still no sign of any of her (then) treatment team confirming her diagnosis. Given that they only need her say-so to do-so, this lack is not impressive.

Read the pdf, what's the problem?

Personally, I am gratified to hear that Dr. Buttars found the cure for Desiree's dystonia. Now that treatment can be given to the hundreds- nay, thousands- nay, hundreds of thousands of similarly afflicted vaccine-induced dystonia sufferers, and Dr. Buttars's name will shine (like a shaft of gold) in the anals of medicine!

Oh. Tens?

Single-digit count? More than five?

More than two, counting Ms. Jennings?

Ah. Never mind, then.

(NB: single 'n' intended.)

By Richard Smith (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

Jeffery @88, what are you trying to say? It seems to me that the paper referenced indicates a public body carrying out its Public Health remit and trying to maximise the protection of the public from an unpleasent and potentially dangerous disease. Do you disagree Jeffery?,does anyone else see the paper in the same light as I do?

OOPs spot the mistake-that should read jeffery@97, I need new Glasses!

andrew (#99): I need new Glasses!

Perhaps new keyboard? :)

What would be fascinating is if we could see the internal PR memos and power point presentations for the Generation Rescue folks. I'd be interested in what their "media strategy" is.

One can only wonder why a 'recipe' would be needed to foster interest and demand for a vaccine if they are, as they say, 'life-saving'.

Moreover, when images of deamons and death are conjured, versus discussing facts pertaining to the matter, a one-size-fits-all-policy certainly does not make rational sense. Intelligent people need to draw the line somewhere.

If children can tolerate 10,000 vaccines in a day as some scientists purport, perhaps those promoting the vaccine wouldn't mind receiving 3-4(x4) vaccines at a time to make sure they 'take'. I'll humbly await the results.

Andrew, please send me the cooperative agreement that the CDC has to engage in such an activity and also the directive that goes with the position in which Glen Nowak holds to carry out your proposed duty of 'fostering interest'.

If children can tolerate 10,000 vaccines in a day as some scientists purport, perhaps those promoting the vaccine wouldn't mind receiving 3-4(x4) vaccines at a time to make sure they 'take'. I'll humbly await the results.

I got three vaccine shots in a single day back in July: Hep-B, DPT, and MMR. No problems other than a slightly sore shoulder. It wasn't a big deal at all.

By Joseph C. (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

/OT/ I hear RFK Jr is about to "break new evidence proving" the CDC conspiracy denying the vaccine-autism link. Anyone come across this yet? /OT/

Jeffry:
If children can tolerate 10,000 vaccines in a day as some scientists purport, perhaps those promoting the vaccine wouldn't mind receiving 3-4(x4) vaccines at a time to make sure they 'take'. I'll humbly await the results.

First off, no-one has EVER suggested jabbing anyone with 10,000 vaccines in a day; that many needles would lead to some serious trauma, not to mention the fact that we don't have that many vaccines to give (small detail, I know). Offit calculated that children could handle exposure to that many different antigens in a day without their immune system being overwhelmed, simply to point out that the argument that 4-5 vaccines being given at once "overwhelmed the immune system" was nonsense. If you can't tell the difference between these two statements, then there is no point in having a conversation.

However, for the record, I've had (in one go):
Hepatitis A-B (as Twinrix)
Typhoid
Meningitis
Diphtheria/Tetanus/Polio
and
Jap. B Encephalitis

I can tell you that my arms hurt like hell, and I felt a bit queasy for a day or two. Other than that, fine, and my immunogenicity was at least functionally tested by travelling across uncivilised Asian interiors for several months -- although that doesn't equal a proper assay, it's the best I can do. I've had a dip/tet booster since then, plus Yellow Fever (for travelling in Africa).

I didn't enjoy the shots very much, but if it meant I'd be going on another trip like that I would have them again in a New York minute. On the same day, even. Preferably not in the same arm, though.

Perfectly happy to put MY money where my mouth is. The vaccines are infinitely better than running a risk of those diseases.

By Luna_the_cat (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

If you meant comment 34 as a response to ENT-TT, I apologize for the error.

If that is the case, I'll apologize to Jay as well. Jay frequently calls Orac by that name.

By Joseph C. (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

Incidentally, andrew @98, yes, I read that paper as "how do we get people to vaccinate when they need to AND deal with the fact that the very aspects of a flu season which will motivate the most people will also scare the most people, and scared people are not especially logical; in other words, how do we encourage people to take sensible steps without scaring them silly and while dealing with their other concerns."

I could be reading more into that than what was there, but that is how I read it.

By Luna_the_cat (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

To be fair, the original paper did say "10000 vaccines" (pg126 about halfway down the right coloumn), however, it was clearly in context of antigen load.

Neither Offit or anyone involved in the research has ever used that figure in relation to vaccine shots. Such an argument would be sheer stupidity.

To state that Offit has ever claimed "10000 vaccines" in the way vaxx-skeptics appear to define the claim, could be considered akin to libel.

Marcuse, Tobias R. Kollman, Bruce G. Gellin and Sarah Landry
Paul A. Offit, Jessica Quarles, Michael A. Gerber, Charles J. Hackett, Edgar K. (2002), Addressing Parentsâ Concerns: Do Multiple Vaccines overwhelm or Weaken the Infantâs Immune System?, Pediatrics 109;124-129

Luna,

Curious, Offit makes a hypothesis. Where has it been tested and validated?

It's great that everyone received those in one day. Go back in a week and get revaccinated just to make sure they all 'take'.

One can only wonder why a 'recipe' would be needed to foster interest and demand for a vaccine if they are, as they say, 'life-saving'.

its very simple, because ignorant conspiracy theorists who cant be bothered to check the facts from their favorite celebrity, such as yourself, continue to run around screaming and yelling that vaccines cause all sorts of damage and its virtually impossible to unscare a population. A PR campaign is required because there are entire industries that have evolved around spreading absolute nonsense about it.

Jeffery @100, first I am here in the UK and so do not have access to CDC documentation. However, CDC is a Government organisation, Governments exist to protect there citizens,(this is a primary duty and reason for governments) Public Health is a DUTY of governments therefore the CDC has the duty and rights to influence the population. If the anti- vaccination lobby can show how their belief will not harm others,which they can not,then they will be listened to.I am not at this point arguing for compulsory vaccination,although a case could be made. Jeffery, you might not like socialism but unfortunatly even anarchists believe in the common good,which at the end is what socity is about. This is not the site or thread for a political argument, but bring it on of you want.

Jeffry @111:
Hark! I hear the squeaky sound of sliding goalposts!

By Luna_the_cat (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

Fair enough, Dedj. A hypothesis was made. Where is the science validating the calculation? Number games can be played all day. Sure 15 antigens in one sitting is a small amount compared to 10,000. Where is the measurement?

No different than making gross assumptions by reading a VAERS report.

Jeffry,

Did you actually read Offit's paper to determine how he came to his conclusion, or does someone have to do that for you?

We can deliberate all day and argue on how many teeth exist in a horses mouth. You wouldn't know for certain until you go and count them yourself. What about the second horse? Do they have the same amount of teeth as the first? And so on and so forth.

Where is the measurement? Where is the test? Where is the trial? Science is based on evidence.

"Where is the science validating the calculation?"

Referenced and explored in the original paper. Thats what those little numbers after the words are, and what the little section marked 'references' is for.

You, er, have read the freely and easily available paper, haven't you?

YES!

Look at the language!

"Current data suggest that the theoretical capacity determined by diversity of antibody variable gene regions would allow for as many as 109 to 1011 different antibody specificities."

"A more practical way to determine the diversity of the immune response would be to estimate the number of vaccines to which a child could respond at one time."

"then each infant would have the theoretical capacity to respond to about 10 000 vaccines"

But brain damage does not immediately reverse itself once the cause is removed.

It's my understanding that brain damage doesn't "reverse" at all because brain cells don't replicate themselves. But, it appears chelation does reverse effects of mercury poisoning (if it really exists). This suggests to me that mercury doesn't damage the brain directly, but inhibits function.

By David N. Brown (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

"We can deliberate all day and argue on how many teeth exist in a horses mouth. You wouldn't know for certain until you go and count them yourself. What about the second horse? Do they have the same amount of teeth as the first? And so on and so forth."

Why can't I just believe the vet who looked in the horse's mouth? I don't know anything about horses, other than the number of teeth have something to do with how old they are. Why would I waste time looking for information I can't understand? It's not like the vet is involved with some grand conspiracy to give me bad information about my hypothetical horses.

Oh...I get it.

You can believe the vet by all means. But it should be repeatable and testable. I merely want to find out where it was tested and the measurements used.

Is this the evidence that is being relied on as concrete science?

You can believe the vet by all means. But it should be repeatable and testable. I merely want to find out where it was tested and the measurements used.

Is this the evidence that is being relied on as concrete science?

Oh. My. Gawd.

So, it's the very language of science itself that's bothering Jeffry?

This is enlightening on so many levels.

By The Perky Skeptic (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

Language is everything.

If Offit says theoretical, one would expect to know what it means. The antonym of theory or theoretical is what we are after.

Could it be that no one can provide the evidence because it is non-existent thus far? Attack all you wish, it still doesn't negate what is being asked.

Perhaps I can make this a bit easier. Distill the conversation to arthus reaction, saranelli reaction, & shwartzman phenomenon.

Could it also be that the tests to validate Offit's hypothesis have not been tested due to the aforementioned knowledge in immunology?

To bill, the troll: Who on earth is Hank?

The anti-vax crowd never has data, just invective. These people are encouraging harmful courses, without solid support. There is little difference between advocating anti-vax nonsense, and encouraging homeopathy. Having had a family friend die of breast cancer while pursuing only homeopathy, I can tell you that it takes horrific cruelty to advocate such a position.

By wackyvorlon (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

"When Desiree arrived last Monday to Dr. Buttarâ¢'s clinic, she was having seizures every 45-60 seconds, every 15-30 seconds her breathing stopped..."

How did they restart her breathing? Was somebody doing CPR as they carried her in? In that case, I don't quite understand why she wasn't in a hospital. Or did it restart by itself in time to stop again 15 seconds later? In that case, I don't exactly know why you'd say "her breathing stopped", as she just paused briefly between breaths.

Tonight I am praying that the heavy metal toxicity within ORAC can be removed. While I thought Desiree needed Dr. Buttar's help, apparently ORAC could benefit greater! And I'm thinking Generation Rescue won't come to his rescue

By The Truth (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

@ Jefferey, wow you are amusing! I don't think you're familiar with the term theoretical and it's meaning.

By wackyvorlon (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

DLC:'n other words, Brian, if you got a flu shot and then were run down by a truck and suffered a broken leg, you would then be here telling people that flu shots cause broken legs.'

DLC is not TLC...She was given a flu injection, then came down with a disease: dystonia, is a known side effect. Cause and effect..and not a car in sight!

I realies DLC that you and people like you, are upset that Desiree went public, that she chose to go the alternaive route, because the 'doctors'(read 'quacks') said she wsa incurable. They didnt havethe illness, and like you they cared not one wit for Desiree. Thanks to Dr Buttar (a real physician in the hippocratic not technocratic tradition), she is getting better...OH THAT MUST HURT. it means the 'doctors' either lied or were incompetent (or both).

Your insolence towards Desiree may be 'respectful'...it is still insolence.

YOI!

"Could it be that no one can provide the evidence because it is non-existent thus far? Attack all you wish, it still doesn't negate what is being asked."

I was going to peruse the thousands of research articles on vaccines on PubMed and create a carefully crafted response, but I'm having too much fun just perusing. Perhaps you should start with the references section on that paper you're talking about, like #118 said. Your inability to find the evidence yourself, and our collective desire to not have to hold your hand through a search engine, does not prove non-existence.

"She was given a flu injection, then came down with a disease: dystonia, is a known side effect."

A known side effect? Really? Dr. Novella stated that "Dr. Vinocur also points out that there are no reported cases of true dystonia resulting from the flu vaccine â this is not a known or established vaccine reaction."

What is the basis for your claim that dystonia is a known side effect of flu vaccine?

Libraryguy: ' must say, I'm impressed with the level of trolling on this thread. brian, while annoying, is, so far, much less crazy than some of the others we've seen recently.
I wonder-since brian showed up so quickly after Orac's post, was he waiting for it? Could brian just be a paid shill from Generation Rescue? Or maybe Dr. Rashid?
I mean, now that they've engineered this whole "she's sick, she's cured, it's all real medicine's fault!" hoax, maybe sending out professional trolls is part of the whole thing.'

I cant say im impressed by your research skills, Library guy...Or are u a paid shill of BIG PHARMA?

She was sick, now shes on the way to a complete cure, and you are frigging upset! But thats what also the response of the vaccine makers and orthodox doctors...They hate it when they are proven wrong, and their methods dangerous. It means their control over the public will weaken...their funds wilol dry up as the sick go to the Dr Buttars of the world. REAL physicians who follow the Hippocratic (ever hear of him?) rules...
I wonder who ORAC is...he certainly isnt human!

I'm not terribly interested in your amusing anecdotes. In typical predictable fashion, again, nothing new under the sun, the argument moves from providing evidence to ad hominem.

I'm asking for the one study that validated Offit's hypothesis. 10,000 vaccines (or antigens) administered to a mamillian species in a single day via injection. What was the outcome?

The effects can only begin to be explained by peer reviewed phenomena mentioned in #125. Are we throwing Virchow out with the bath water now as well?

Jeffry #102

If children can tolerate 10,000 vaccines in a day as some scientists purport, perhaps those promoting the vaccine wouldn't mind receiving 3-4(x4) vaccines at a time to make sure they 'take'. I'll humbly await the results.

Every year thousands of adults do just that the first week or so of military boot camp. When I joined the Navy in '95 we received two vaccines in each arm by "vaccine gun", one by needle, and another by mouth - all in the space of a half-hour. I received another three the day I checked-in to "A" School, and another two before graduation.

That's millions of individuals who received multiple vaccinations in rapid succession... it doesn't seem you need to "humbly await for the results" - your results are busy serving their country. *smiles*

I am familiar with the protocol Tanya. Most receive them via 'vaccine/air gun' in herd style. But what doesn't happen, Tanya, is you receiving the same amount the next month, and then the next month proceeding.

What may not occur to you is that the same vaccine administered to you or a SPECWAR shipmate is also being administered to a 6-9lb. child.

Do you give your child (if you have one) the same dosages of medication you receive? By analogy, how can mixing three shots of liquor into one glass considered one 'shot' of alcohol?

Jeffry,

In typical antivax style you are asking someone to perform a ridiculous task and then trying to pretend that their unwillingness to do so, somehow supports your.

If I tell you its safe to swim in lake michigan becuase there are no alligators there, do I have to search every square foot of the lake to prove there are no alligators or can I just show that alligators aren't known to live that far north.

In this case, knowledge that you have not bothered to check your self is available concerning what our daily exposure to antigens are, Offit and Novella make very VERY conservative estimates about daily exposure, point out that it has been shown that your body makes multiple antibodies per antigen, and the calculation goes from there.

You dont need to demonstrate 10,000 vaccinations to prove out the calculation, particularly when no one is even recommending anything close to that in a vax schedule.

The point being made was that the 3-9 vaccinations that we are talking about are ORDERS of magnitude lower than the calculated limit. It is irrelevant if the limit is 5000, or 10,100, or 20,000. As for a limit close to what we are currently using, this is tested every single year with great responses. The effects from the diseases we vaccinate against are virtually unheard of except in communities when the antivaxxers have congregated.

Jeffry #137

I am familiar with the protocol Tanya. Most receive them via 'vaccine/air gun' in herd style. But what doesn't happen, Tanya, is you receiving the same amount the next month, and then the next month proceeding.

True - but I would. Sign me up and point me to the clinic. Have them observe me for a month, run a million tests to make sure I haven't been "injured".

Also, I'm sure you understand why those shots are administered in small amounts by a set schedule.

What may not occur to you is that the same vaccine administered to you or a SPECWAR shipmate is also being administered to a 6-9lb. child.

Of course it occurs to me - both pediatric and adult vaccines are composed of weakened or dead viruses. Why would they be different?

Do you give your child (if you have one) the same dosages of medication you receive? By analogy, how can mixing three shots of liquor into one glass considered one 'shot' of alcohol?

I don't think I understand your analogy... but you're right in the assumption that I wouldn't give my children the same dosage of medication I take myself. Of course, pediatric vaccine doses are smaller than adult doses (which is why some clinics give adults two doses of pediatric vaccine when they run low on supplies) so the example doesn't apply.

I understand the point, Techskeptic. Dually noted. You are correct, one does not need to disect an apple and understand cellular biology to enjoy its flavour. I get it. You are missing the point.

Let us not turn this into an emotional debate on 'dis-ease'. Being vaccinated (the act) is not synonamous with immunization. The medical literature is very clear concerning this point.

I'm having trouble understanding why Dr. Buttar doesn't get his license taken away.

By Marilyn Mann (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

I'm asking for the one study that validated Offit's hypothesis. 10,000 vaccines (or antigens) administered to a mamillian species in a single day via injection. What was the outcome?

Why don't you contact Dr. Offit himself on this? Why ask this here?

By Joseph C. (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

http://peacerebelgirl.wordpress.com/2009/10/28/desiree-jennings-lying-d…

'The doctor in the video says there are no reported cases of dystonia from the flu vaccine. However, the VAERS Request (The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System) from the CDC website shows there have been four cases of dystonia as a result of the seasonal influenza vaccine. When querying on the influenza vaccine flu mist, it brings the total to five cases.'

mann:'I'm having trouble understanding why Dr. Buttar doesn't get his license taken away.'

im having trouble understanding why you object to desiree being cured! The very doctor who has succeeded in proving she was not incurable...has put her on the road to cure. Those doctors who object should have their licenses taken away!

Its pathetic that you or any one should object.

Dontcha think!

@BA(105): CDC cover-ups! Intrigue! Secret meetings!(in Georgia?) Perhaps he's borrowing a page or two from Janine Roberts,*crankeuse extraordinaire anglaise*;BTW, she's also the person who has all of the "secret memos" from Gallo's lab partner "disproving" the existence of HIV.(see "Fear of the Invisible")

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

Its pathetic that you or any one should object.

What is pathetic is that you aren't able to spot a transparent fraud.

By Joseph C. (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

@brian #146: You are aware, aren't you, that anyone can submit a report to VAERs, and that they are not reviewed for accuracy. (One famous proof of that is a report that a vaccine turned a man into the Incredible Hulk. VAERs accepted that report with no review) So, yes, there may be reports of dystonia in VAERs No one is saying there are none. What they are saying is that there are no reports LINKING a flu vaccine with dystonia. A causal effect has not been found. A certain number of people develop dystonia every day. That number is not being greatly increased by people reportedly developing dystonia from a flu vaccine.

Please do your reading about VAERs and Dr Offit as you have been requested upthread. You are getting to be annoying.

I am going to stop feeding the troll. It's Friday night and I have better things to do.

joseph: 'What is pathetic is that you aren't able to spot a transparent fraud.'

not at all joe: i can recognise you as a transparent fraud...along with Orac and the orthodox medical porofession, which seems to want us to think the vaccines they give are harmless

Dawn: still running interference for BIG PHARMA? The VAER is accurate..thats what you object to.

Good riddance. Your defence of the flu shot and attacks on Desiree are beyond despicable.

It's rather odd that a person perporting to uphold science standards should narrow acceptable evidence exclusively to pragmatic practical demonstration. That smacks of GCSE level understanding of science.

There are rather large fields of study that are based on observation, or reproduction on small scales only.

We can test the antigen load of the human body by testing for antigen loads during recoverable illness. To my knowledge, this is what led to the antigen load figure used by Offit.

A practical test would, a: not be practical or even practicable, b: be unlikely to pass ethics, c: be irrelevant.

People are claiming that the standard vaccine schedule is overwhelming the immune systems of 'previously healthy' children. Offit was responding to those concerns. He did so by breaking those concerns down.

Where are the figures wrong? Or are we just going to go back and forth over this all weekend?

@ 102

One can only wonder why a 'recipe' would be needed to foster interest and demand for a vaccine if they are, as they say, 'life-saving'.

Jeffry, your argument seems to be as follows:

1) If vaccines are life-saving, then it will never require any effort whatsoever to convince people to get them.
2) The AMA believes that it will require effort to convince people to get flu shots.
3) Therefore, the AMA must not believe that vaccines are life-saving.

Of course, an argument which is based on false premises provides no support for its conclusion. I can't help but notice that your premise 1 is quite shaky indeed:

1) If vaccines are life-saving, then it will never require any effort whatsoever to convince people to get them.

Are seatbelts life-saving when you ride in a car? Are helmets life-saving when you drive a motorcycle? Are life vests life-saving when you go out on the water? The answer to all three questions is "yes", but people choose to forgo those safety measures all the time.

Perhaps they think seatbelts are "too constricting". Perhaps they want to feel the wind blowing their hair back as they zoom down the highway on a cycle. Perhaps they're just too impatient to get out on the lake to stop and put on life vests. You might even ask those people "are those measures you're skipping life-saving measures?" and the answer you'd get, if you could get it from where their thinking is really going on, would probably be "Of course they are! They save lots of lives! But I don't need it, because if something happens, it'll happen to some other guy - not to me!"

Your premise 1 falls apart if we admit the obvious truth that people are not always sensible, and don't always act in their own best interests. That is why groups that want people to act in their own best interests, and to do the sensible thing, have to plan how to convince people to do that. So they need recipes. Recipes for getting people to buckle up. Recipes for getting people to wear their helmets. Recipes for getting people to put on their life vests. Recipes for getting people to get their flu shots.

If you still insist on arguing the point you tried to present at 102, please explain exactly how you plan to support the premise "People are always sensible and always act in their own best interests." Without it you can't get anywhere.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

Jeffry:

The arthus reaction requires the organism to have been exposed to the antigen beforehand, so the 10,000 *novel* vaccines couldn't possibly form them. If you were going to revaccinate people for things they had been exposed to, only tetanus and diphtheria have been shown to cause the reaction, so you'd either get a volunteer who had never been vaccinated for those two or leave them out. Or, even more alternatively, you could risk giving them two necrotic sores on their arm. Fun times to be had by all. I'm feeling sorry for anyone who's had this, but with proper wound care it's not life-threatening.

The Schwartzman phenomenon is caused by endotoxins. Why would you think endotoxins would be anywhere near a vaccine?

Brian @135.

You are SO smart. Getting your evidence from youtube... I am going to stop watching music videos and get my medical advice there instead.
Yeah.

I have spent the last three weeks fielding the most insanely ridiculous questions regarding the A(H1N1) flu and its corresponding vaccine. This video represents the epitome of shoddy, sensationalist journalism. It also, sadly, reflects the general credulous eagerness with which people embrace every urban myth that lands in their inbox, and every piece of shit on YouTube.

I question the motivation of those who feel they must broadcast their personal pain to the world via less than credible sources. This appears to me to be extreme attention-seeking behaviour. I reckon that fits with the profile of a soon-to-be-over-the-hill cheerleader and various Hollywood types of that ilk.

Devolution indeed.

By Jackrabbit (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

She was given a flu injection, then came down with a disease: dystonia, is a known side effect.

That's funny, Brian, because in just about every news story I've seen on Jennings' alleged dystonia, the doctors are always saying the exact opposite: that if she actually had dystonia (which no doctor has gone on record saying that she actually had) and if she actually got it from the flu shot, that it would be the first such case ever known.

Can you provide us a citation for your view that "dystonia ... is a known side effect" of the flu vaccine? A citation to something real, please, not to a Generation Rescue press release or the like...

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

nlgirl....
i get my info from those affected...Not from the very people who made her sick...aka 'medical advice'.
Remember, the orthodox doctors told us the flu vaccine was perfectly safe...when she got sick from that vaccine, rthey said she is incurable.
So i will stick to youtube videos that are not controlled by your doctors...its smarter!

Well, I hadn't watched the Miraculous Recovery video prior to my last comment.

Hey Desiree, this is a clever pitch for a reality show, but normally it is done through one's agent.

Fuck all y'all 'n yer inarticulatedness.

That stranded on a desert island thing is looking more and more delicious.

By Jackrabbit (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

jackrabbit reveals just how much acmericans hate freedom.

' question the motivation of those who feel they must broadcast their personal pain to the world via less than credible sources. This appears to me to be extreme attention-seeking behaviour'

these are weasel words...Desiree Jennings has the right to speak about her plight. you may not like what she says but to impugn she is lying, makes me question your motivation.

'It also, sadly, reflects the general credulous eagerness with which people embrace every urban myth that lands in their inbox, and every piece of shit on YouTube.'

For real credulity nothing takes the place of those who believe in orthodox medicine: thats its safe and will cure or prevent dissease. Desiree trusted the flu vaccine was safe...it wasnt. She was told her condition they had created was incurable...she has shown they are either lying or incompetent. She has presented her case to the world for real people to judge, not medical hacks.

Jackrabbit is now hopping up and down in mad frustration.!

So i will stick to youtube videos that are not controlled by your doctors...its smarter!

And that is the reason that there really is no point in feeding trolls. They arent here to discuss things. Not here to learn, or get a grasp of concepts. Not here to have their sources questioned.

These folks are simply here because they found a video that puffs up their preconceived notions and conspiracy theories and have some strange idea that YouTube and google university is a compelling resource for making a claim. They are like the goofballs that stand on the roof top yelling that the world is ending tomorrow. and when it doesnt, they just pick another date.

I have a "hypothesis" that light from Earth takes about 4 years to get to Alpha Centauri. Is it necessary to perform an experiment by shooting a laser beam to Alpha Centauri to confirm this? No, because what I provided is not really a "hypothesis." It's a mathematical projection, based on prior scientific knowledge.

Same deal with Dr. Offit's 10,000 vaccines estimate (which clearly only refers to antigens from vaccines, not 10,000 actual shots.)

antaeus, your gullibilty or what is it is all american. those same doctors claim vaccines are very safe, they claim Desirees condition is incurable... and now they claim its the only case. SO for your reeducation:

http://peacerebelgirl.wordpress.com/2009/10/28/desiree-jennings-lying-d…

'The doctor in the video says there are no reported cases of dystonia from the flu vaccine. However, the VAERS Request (The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System) from the CDC website shows there have been four cases of dystonia as a result of the seasonal influenza vaccine. When querying on the influenza vaccine flu mist, it brings the total to five cases.'

With suckers like you its no wonder the vaccine makers are laughing all the way across corpse strewn streets to ths bank!

I am ANTI-VACCINE all the way. I do not get the flu shot nor the H1N1 vaccine and neither will my children. First of all, I am happy that our science has come a long way with vaccines to reduce small pox, etc. However, a simple flu is not worth injecting TOXINS into your body. Do your homework, look and see whats INSIDE the flu vaccines! WAKE UP

Remember the avian flu a few years ago? the World Health Organization estimated it would kill 150 million worldwide. Actual death toll? 262. Average anual worldwide death toll of influenza A? half a million. Swine flu death toll? A couple hundred.

May I make a suggestion? ....wash your hands, exercise, eat well, live healthy, & fight off bacteria and viruses the old fashion way (like humans have done for 50,000 years.)

Also, Vitamin D had MUCH to do with our immune systems. The main reason we get the flu mostly in the fall/winter months is because we are lacking sun. Take high doses of Vit D and get on with your lives. Do yourself a favor and do some research on the effects of Vitamin D and your immune system.

http://2roadschooselife.wordpress.com/2009/09/05/cold-fronts-and-flu-so…

not at all joe: i can recognise you as a transparent fraud...along with Orac and the orthodox medical porofession, which seems to want us to think the vaccines they give are harmless

That's a straw man argument. Medical treatments, like most any activity, involve risk. Medicine claims that the benefits of vaccination outweigh the risks.

You need to look up the post hoc fallacy. Just because something occurs after a vaccine does not mean that the vaccine caused it.

By Joseph C. (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

May I make a suggestion? ....wash your hands, exercise, eat well, live healthy, & fight off bacteria and viruses the old fashion way (like humans have done for 50,000 years.)

If you want to go back to the life expectancy humans had 50,000 years ago, then go for it. Also, most biologists believe that homo sap is much older than 50,000 years.

By Joseph C. (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

'I have a "hypothesis" that light from Earth takes about 4 years to get to Alpha Centauri.'

you may but i dont deal in hypothesis,,.just evidence. Youre an eg of the flakiness of modern education.

The VAER is accurate..thats what you object to.

1) Brian knows, because he responded to MI Dawn's post which contained the information, that VAERS contains a report of a man turning into The Incredible Hulk following a vaccination, and that that reported side effect received just as much verification and confirmation as any other VAERS report: none.
2) Brian still insists that the VAERS is accurate and that any report in VAERS of a condition occurring after a vaccination is therefore a "known" case of that condition being caused by that vaccination (despite the fact that "occurred after" and "was caused by" are two separate things.)

The only logical conclusion:

3) Brian believes The Incredible Hulk is real.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

Why does no one think that perhaps all her symptoms are caused by her enormous fake boobs?

It has been proven numerous times that all the harmful side effects of fake breasts can cause so many side effects in the body.

Hey go back to your normal body and I predict you will be cured.

'If you want to go back to the life expectancy humans had 50,000 years ago, then go for it. Also, most biologists believe that homo sap is much older than 50,000 years'

how long did people live 50000 years ago?
At least they didnt have any iatrogenesis to contend with!

you may but i dont deal in hypothesis,,.just evidence.

LOL.

you may but i dont deal in hypothesis,,.just evidence.

Fail.

By Joseph C. (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

Do your homework, look and see whats INSIDE the flu vaccines! WAKE UP

@Neener: It's not just vaccines, you know. The next time you drink a glass of water, or a soda, or some juice, consider what's INSIDE. Do your HOMEWORK!!! And WAKE UP for Christs's sake!!! [Insert more all-caps stuff here.]

Any water you get a hold of will have some toxins in it, including mercury and so forth. What's worse, you probably drink about 2 liters of it every day, unlike vaccination, which is a rare occurrence.

Any time you eat something, you are in fact ingesting some amount of toxins.

Good luck to you in your admirable endeavor to avoid all toxins.

Good God, Brian, do you do anything other than read this blog? Tell me, do you feel a thrill up your leg when you're replying to stuff? Are you a... dare I say it... Troll?

By Rene Najera (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

antaeus: 'Brian still insists that the VAERS is accurate and that any report in VAERS of a condition occurring after a vaccination is therefore a "known" case of that condition being caused by that vaccination (despite the fact that "occurred after" and "was caused by" are two separate things.)'

Translation...if VAERS contradicts my strongly held beliefs in the utter safety of vaccines, then it must be wrong.

Thanks for enlightning me, Anteaus to your condition.
Pity it was Desiree got the dystonia, and not you... you need the education of experience.

Wow Joseph C. You and I are the same person. Who knew?

Please don't teach this maroon why we're laughing at him.

The red clown nose is like a public service alert.

A well-written VAERS report, that appears to have been culled from patient records, and appears to have been written by capable clinician or clinical secretary with in a reasonable time frame after the event, is vastly superior in quality to the majority of VAERS reports out there.

To hold this VAERS report up as typical and representative is just plain laughable.

rene:'Good God, Brian, do you do anything other than read this blog? Tell me, do you feel a thrill up your leg when you're replying to stuff?'

for someone who prowls ageofautism blog, youre one to talk!
My thrill is seeing Desiree get better thanks to the work of Dr rashid Buttar ( i know youre upset she IS getting better!), and taking the mickey out of the science freaks...

@168

Don't make brian angry. You wouldn't like him when he's angry.

Who wants to play the anti-vax crank drinking game tomorrow night?

With respect to the nonsensical argument of comparing mercury in tuna fish to the mercury in H1N1, you are comparing apples and oranges.

An interesting property of mercury is its ability to bind with protein, so much so that when you ingest it, it stays attached to the tuna and you poop out over 90% of the intake.

2) With thimerosol, it has the same protein binding property. Since it is injected into you, it bonds with protein in your body and you get 100% of the dose. You do not shed it...ever.

Mercury has a cumulative effect, so minimizing your intake ensures better health. In my mind no amount of mercury is safe but if you enjoy your tuna, please limit yourself.

With vaccines containing thimerosol...tell the 'Man' I get my mercury from tuna.

Welcome to The Flu World Order!

antigen

brian@133 is right. I should've done more research. I don't think he's a paid shill for Generation Rescue after all. Based on his response in #147, I think he's a paid shill for Dr. Buttar.

By LibraryGuy (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

'A well-written VAERS report, that appears to have been culled from patient records, and appears to have been written by capable clinician '

this is what i mean by faith in an ideology. You assume that any 'capable clinician' is honest and upright...yet the reaction to Dr Buttar(a very capable clinician) shows this to be a fraud.

Who decides who is capable?

When [Desiree Jennings] got sick [sic] from that vaccine, [orthodox doctors] said she is incurable.

Well, here you go, Brian, here's your chance to make me a believer. Name those mainstream doctors. Heck, I'll make it even easier for you -- you don't have to name a single orthodox doctor who said anywhere "I examined Desiree Jennings and diagnosed her with incurable dystonia" or "I examined Desiree Jennings and diagnosed her with dystonia". All you have to do is name a single orthodox doctor who said "I examined Desiree Jennings."

Go ahead. I don't think you'll succeed but I sure hope you do your best trying. Because I know I have been looking through the news stories I find about Jennings and I read "Doctors said this", "doctors said that", but I never read those things the doctors purportedly say coming from the doctors themselves.

Desiree Jennings has the right to speak about her plight. you may not like what she says but to impugn she is lying, makes me question your motivation.

...

She was told her condition they had created was incurable...she has shown they are either lying or incompetent.

Well, that's a very blatant double standard: Jennings' doctors can safely be accused of lying their heads off before they even get a chance to speak for themselves, but no one can be allowed to suggest that Jennings was even mistaken. It's no wonder that you've come to the conclusion that orthodox medicine failed Desiree Jennings: not because the facts support that conclusion, but because you've rigged your process of examination so blatantly that the facts have nothing to do with it.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

keep doing your research, library...you may yet come to learn about the fraud of modern medicine. Please try not to think, as you dont seem very good at it.

In regards to ancient humans, they didn't live very long back in ye olde days. A lot of children died in infancy, and those who survived rarely got older than about 40.

By Katharine (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

brian, before you make wacky-ass claims, pick up a biology textbook and a list of logical fallacies.

By Katharine (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

'Brian still insists that the VAERS is accurate and that any report in VAERS of a condition occurring after a vaccination is therefore a "known" case of that condition being caused by that vaccination (despite the fact that "occurred after" and "was caused by" are two separate things.)'

Translation...if VAERS contradicts my strongly held beliefs in the utter safety of vaccines, then it must be wrong.

A correct translation would be:

IF you accept that there are five known cases of the flu vaccine causing dystonia, based on the evidence of five VAERS reports of dystonia occurring after flu vaccinations, THEN you also accept that there is a known case of the flu vaccine causing a transformation into The Incredible Hulk, based on the evidence of the VAERS report which claimed such a transformation following the shot.

If on the other hand, you do not accept that the infamous Hulk report was the complete and utter unquestionable truth, then you must stop treating those five alleged dystonia cases as the complete and utter unquestionable truth.

We're simply asking you to be consistent. Is there some reason you can't be?

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

"You do not shed it...ever"

[citation needed]

Here's published evidence of thimersal being shed.

Following an overdose of thimersal, 85mg/kg, (no idea how that happens) a 44 year old man had the following levels:

Maximum mercury concentrations were blood 14 mg/L, serum 1.7 mg/L, urine 10.7 mg/L, and cerebrospinal fluid 0.025 mg/L. Mercury concentration in blood declined with two velocities: first with half-time 2.2 days, then with half-time 40.5 days. The decline of mercury concentration in blood, urinary mercury excretion, and renal mercury clearance were not substantially influenced by chelation therapy.

(J Toxicol Clin Toxicol. 1996;34(4):453-60.)

steve novella claims:

' First, let me say that I am very happy Ms. Jennings' symptoms have resolved. Hopefully now she can just go on with her life. But to me, this impossibly rapid recovery is a dramatic confirmation that her symptoms were psychogenic to begin with. '

Is he sincere? As hes clearly not happy at how she was cured. Isnt it strange that her 'psychogenic' condition only began to improve AFTER DR Buttar began his treatment! Novella cant bear that...as it undermines his thesis. Before she went to Dr Buttar, there was NO sign of improvement of any kind. Novella is trying to weasel people into not going the way of Desiree, and instead to put their faith in 'it will all go away in time''

If he was a doctor this would be enough to get him struck off the register. What patient would visit him!

In addition he wanst hefr and rthe rest of us to go on with out lives.,..as if nothing has happened..But somethijng HAS happened...Vaccines have been shown to have alarming effects, that medical orthodoxy ignored thes effects, and lt their victims...sorry patients, discover them themselves.

Thats inexcusable.

antaeus...alleged dystonia?

Your alleged honesty is freying into absurdity

VAERS is neither useless nor are isolated VAERS reports good evidence that an adverse event occurred. If certain types of reports are all of the sudden occurring more often than they normally are, it's possible something real is going on. It can also be the result of hype. It's well known, for example, that most VAERS reports related to autism were submitted by vaccine injury lawyers. Additionally, the number of autism VAERS submissions peaked in 2002. The number of autism injury claims peaked in 2003.

A database should not be dismissed on its entirety based on the fact that its data can be misinterpreted.

With thimerosol, it has the same protein binding property. Since it is injected into you, it bonds with protein in your body and you get 100% of the dose. You do not shed it...ever.

I'd really be interested in seeing your citation for that, antigen. It seems to be at odds with everything I've read about the empirical evidence they collected which shows ethylmercury compounds not only flushing out of the body but doing so faster than methylmercury compounds.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

Buttar is a freak. He has performed a urine injection protocol. But don't worry, your piss is sterilized before it's injected back into you. The Cajun Cowboy can get you up to speed IIRC... unless he's dead already, no thanks to the quackery.

The antivax/AoA freak trolls (brian, DF and jeffry) have really scuttled out from under their rocks for this blog lately. Was it something Orac said? Heh.

Robert Bell:

'âDoctor treating flu shot patient could lose license.â

I find it interesting that a doctor who is helping people to overcome âincurableâ maladies is the one who is threatened with loss of licensure, while those proposing to manage a permanent disability with Botox injections are considered practicing the standard of care. The medical establishment should be embarrassed that shooting dilute neurotoxins into the body of vaccine-injured patients is considered anything but SUB-standard.

What else have we seen from the media but a vast wasteland of ignorance thus far? Multiple interviews with telegenic armchair quarterback doctors claiming that Desiree Jennings did not even have dystonia. Iâd like to say thatâs idiopathic, but I actually know the cause.

How they make a definitive neurological diagnosis by watching news reports of Desiree trying to walk and talk must be a secret taught only in 3rd year medical school. Iâm kidding. It was probably during caffeine-infused hallucinatory video rounds during residency.

These TV doctors dissing the diagnosis from Johns Hopkins should know that you cannot make such diagnoses without direct interaction and established confirmatory tests. Sorry armchair docs, watching a video on the evening news does not qualify. Since they canât ignore the story or successfully nullify the Johns Hopkins diagnosis, then why not attack the doctor?'
http://www.drbuttar.com/blog/?p=660

Indeed.

These recent trolls (Doctrinal Fairness, brian) are kind of dull. I hate to say it, but I almost miss Happeh.

Unless they both ARE Happeh, just playing with us...

...now I just freaked myself out.

By KristinMH (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

also From Robert Bell:

'This story of Desiree Jennings has only just begun to be told and it promises to save generations of children now being thrown under an indiscriminate vaccination bus due to the Pasteurian fear of microbes (a subject I have covered in previous blog posts). Ironically, it may also save the medical profession from its present state of medical board indentured servitude.'

and i agree...

nlgirl....
i get my info from those affected...Not from the very people who made her sick...aka 'medical advice'.
Remember, the orthodox doctors told us the flu vaccine was perfectly safe...when she got sick from that vaccine, rthey said she is incurable.
So i will stick to youtube videos that are not controlled by your doctors...its smarter!

You do that Brian....live long and prosper. I have to have a little rest from the uncontrolled laughter... I "facepalmed" so hard just now I think I concussed myself. Must seek help on Youtube. Oh, Oh, laughing again.

Isnt it strange that her 'psychogenic' condition only began to improve AFTER DR Buttar began his treatment!

Not at all. It's completely natural for psychogenic conditions to respond dramatically and rapidly to placebo.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

vindaloo...having no argument prefers the ad hominem:

'Buttar is a freak. He has performed a urine injection protocol. But don't worry, your piss is sterilized before it's injected back into you'

Interestingly mares usine is used by orthodox medicine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premarin

I dont scuttle under rocks Vindaloo, b ut your ad hominem swipes at Dr Buttar show you as a low life that should have no trouble scuttling.

'Not at all. It's completely natural for psychogenic conditions to respond dramatically and rapidly to placebo.'

placebo, huh? Then why did the doctors ar JH not think of that? Perhaps because they dont believe in placebos. How many doctors use placebos? None...Certainly not Dr Buttar.

@197: See? I was right. Shill for Dr. Buttar. Or maybe brian's a shill for both Dr. Buttar and GenRescue. It's not like there's a conflict of interest.
I'm wondering though-do professional shills like brian get paid much? Is it a full-time job, or do they just shill on the side? And how do you know if you're a good shill? Does some manager come by and read all the posts and see if you've successfully spun everyone up?
What if you screw up and actually answer someone's question? Could you lose your job if you actually admit you're wrong, or engage them in a direct discussion without distorting their replies?
Or say you just slipped up and used logic or facts-would you just get fined? I suppose it depends on who's paying you to shill, really.
Just some thoughts. I don't expect any real answers. Don't want to get brian in trouble with his handlers.

By LibraryGuy (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

How many doctors use placebos? None...Certainly not Dr Buttar.

His whole freaking business revolves around the placebo effect.

How many doctors use placebos? None

Swing and a miss.

By Joseph C. (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

getting the message out: Desiree Jennings cured by Dr Buttar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL0VJ7F34Hk

'treich007: The vaccines gave her TOXICITY, and Dr. Buttar removed the toxicity from her body, and she became cured. So for everyone else who is pro-vaccines, have fun injecting the toxic poisons into your children. I have never and will never inject my children with any vaccines ever'

no,joe..But Dr Buttar is not using placebo... AS expected you know squat about the treatments he uses. the reason is if a doctor doesnt use poisonous medicines, he is said to be using placebo. Thats the orthodox line of arguement, which youve swallowed like a true believer.

"I have never and will never inject my children with any vaccines ever'"
Uh-oh. He gave an honest answer. Brian's handlers will not be pleased.
Oh well, I'm getting the sense that he's just a beginner at this "paid to shill" thing. Maybe his boss will be more understanding, and cut him some slack.

By LibraryGuy (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

God answers the sincere prayer. I personally know several very sincere and charismatic people who have prayed for this woman.

Tonight I am praying that the heavy metal toxicity within ORAC can be removed. While I thought Desiree needed Dr. Buttar's help, apparently ORAC could benefit greater! And I'm thinking Generation Rescue won't come to his rescue

Duh - Removing the heavy metal toxicity within ORAC would be fatal. He isn't put together with lead free plumbing solder.

Antaeus Feldspar @154 - your seatbelt analogy is better than you realize. When my father ordered then optional seatbelts with a car in the early 60s, the salesman tried to talk him out of it because "it was better to be thrown clear" and "you could be trapped in a burning/sinking car". The similarity between the anti-vaxxer's and the anti-seatbeltists is striking. The same third hand anecdotes trumping statistical evidences coupled in with a total misunderstanding of basic physics instead of chemistry/biology.

You would think ButtTar would use a better shill.

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

Dr Buttar doesnt need shills...his work speaks for itself...
At least His work with Desiree will make him famous world wide, and his detractors...infamous.

'I'm getting the sense that he's just a beginner at this "paid to shill" thing. '

thats your martianwavelength,,,,you really need to get off those meds!

noones answered by question...IF placebos can cure, ,why arent they used by the medical profession?
Dr Buttar didnt cure by placebo or hand waving...he used natural therapies, which it seems you regard as UNamerican.
Desiree , who didnt have the luxury to fantasise, now knows vaccines are dangerous, and natural methods DO cure....as do many more people who watch her videos

No, brian is just sincerely delusional, with an additional unsupported conviction that he has some clue what he's talking about.

It's sad, really.

By Luna_the_cat (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

Luna (apt name for someone delusional!)...do u think Desiree is delusional?

Whats sad is your computer generated fantasy about what is a serious social issue: dangers of vaccines on unsuspecting and trusting public, by a medical-industrial monster that puts profits over people....

Dr Buttar is David to their goliath. you are on goliaths side.

brian: Doctors don't make more use of placebos because real medicine is supposed to be based around honesty and transparency, and placebo effect depends on the patient thinking they are getting a real therapy when they aren't. Plus, if a real doctor gives a "sham" treatment to fool the patient into feeling better, they open themselves to getting sued if the patient ever finds that out.

Buttar has been disciplined for malpractice a number of times by the NC medical board, but he doesn't get sued so much because he is a practiced con man who knows exactly how to play his audience. His target is the demographic of people who know absolutely nothing about biology and who have a vast and irrational fear and hatred of official bodies and "the mainstream" (e.g. you) and who will never accept information presented by people within the bulk of the practice of medicine, so he never lacks for suckers an audience.

By Luna_the_cat (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

Wow, I can't believe how close minded this blogger is. Ms. Jennings did not diagnose herself with dystonia! You seem to completely dismiss the fact that John Hopkins and one other hospital agree on this diagnosis...irrespective of her "mental" conditions. The simple fact that the drug industry (I was going to call it the "medical world" but it's not that anymore, it's the "drug industry")and the natural medicines can't align with each other says more about the politics of the two sides than it does about Ms. Jenning's condition. All you guys want to do is destroy each other, Ms. Jennings be damned.

John Hopkins and one other hospital agree on this diagnosis

We keep hearing this, but only from the alt-med side. There doesn't seem to be any other evidence that this is so. Who are the doctors who supposedly agree on this diagnosis of dystonia? Where are their actual statements? Given that even large dystonia-advocacy groups like the Dystonia Medical Research Foundation don't think this could be dystonia ( http://www.dystonia-foundation.org/pages/dystonia___flu_vaccine/569.php ), and the fact that a number of qualified people have pointed out that the symptoms do not fit a profile of dystonia, this is not unreasonable to ask.

And given that the anti-vax organisations which are claiming "it was definitely diagnosed as dystonia!" and "she was told it was incurable!" are known for lying about other things, too, and exaggerating and spreading false information, it would be reasonable to want to see their current claims backed up.

By Luna_the_cat (not verified) on 06 Nov 2009 #permalink

'Doctors don't make more use of placebos because real medicine is supposed to be based around honesty and transparency, and placebo effect depends on the patient thinking they are getting a real therapy when they aren't'

Glad we are on the same page Luna...Doctors DONT use Placebo because they are either not controllable or dont work. YEt whenever any alternative practice works, its dismissed as placebo. Any one who knows the history of homeopathy knows it has worked millions of times!

'Buttar has been disciplined for malpractice a number of times by the NC medical board, but he doesn't get sued so much because he is a practiced con man who knows exactly how to play his audience. His target is the demographic of people who know absolutely nothing about biology '

This brings me to Dr Semmelweiss? Ever hear of him?

'Semmelweis discovered that cases of puerperal fever, a form of septicaemia also known as childbed fever, could be cut drastically if doctors washed their hands in a chlorine solution before gynaecological examinations, but did not explain why, as his discovery was prior to the 1864 germ theory of Louis Pasteur.

While employed as assistant to the professor of the maternity clinic at the Vienna General Hospital in Austria in 1847, Semmelweis introduced hand washing with chlorinated lime solutions for interns who had performed autopsies. This immediately reduced the incidence of fatal puerperal fever from about 10 percent (range 5â30 percent) to about 1â2 percent. At the time, diseases were attributed to many different and unrelated causes. Each case was considered unique, just like a human person is unique. Semmelweis' hypothesis, that there was only one cause, that all that mattered was cleanliness, was extreme at the time, and was largely ignored, rejected or ridiculed. He was dismissed from the hospital (for politics of the 1848 rebellion) and harassed by the medical community in Vienna, which eventually forced him to move to Pest.

Semmelweis was outraged by the indifference of the medical profession and began writing open and increasingly angry letters to prominent European obstetricians, at times denouncing them as irresponsible murderers'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis

What do Semmelweiss and Buttar have in common? both cured the sick...both were attacked by the medical establishment of the day. Both were true hippocratic physicians who rattled the establishment. Both were accused of malpractice by the REAL malpracticers!

Oy.

No, brian. I did NOT say "placebos are not controllable" or "placebos don't work". Don't lie about what I say; rhetorical tricks do not make falsehoods more real.

Placebos DO work. Many honest doctors wish they felt more free to use them. The issue is that placebos rely on lying to the patient, which is against the ethos of mainstream medical practice, and because doctors both can be and have been sued by patients who found out that they received a placebo when they thought they were getting some form of bioactive compound.

I understand that this is beyond you and you have no particular desire to try to understand it anyway, but hopefully this makes sense to whatever lurkers might be hanging around.

Difference between Semmelweis and Buttar: Semmelweis had actual evidence, far beyond what can be shown to be placebo effect.

By Luna_the_cat (not verified) on 07 Nov 2009 #permalink

'Desiree recently created a website to document her recovery after her Facebook and Twitter accounts were repeatedly hacked'

NOW who would hack Desiree??? and why?

Hi Desiree,I have turned 11 years old.It was kind of weird how you got "dynostia" after taking the vaccine.In regards of that, the vaccine isn't say.Honestly, there is no way I am going to take that.You get a higher risk of side-affects then getting the swine flu.I hope you get better.People are saying on Nov,5,09 you got cured by Dr.Radish Buttar something like that and I hope it realy did happen!Bye

'acebos DO work. Many honest doctors wish they felt more free to use them. The issue is that placebos rely on lying to the patient, which is against the ethos of mainstream medical practice, and because doctors both can be and have been sued by patients who found out that they received a placebo when they thought they were getting some form of bioactive compound.''

This is malarky...where do u get the idea the patient wants aspecific compound> When he or she knows little of the illness or treatment!
AS for 'ethos of mainstream medical practice', are u justr ignorant of modern medicines history of UNethicl practice? I gave Semmelweiss as a pre-modern eg because of thre close parallels. Semmellweiss had actual evidence? So does Dr Buttar, but the doctors chose not to listen. Both professions were killing people: the earlier with unwashed hands, the modern with toxic vaccines.

Pit you are so lacking in ethics to see this

OW who would hack Desiree??? and why?

Probably the image board that shall not be named, for the lulz. No conspiracy neccesary.

Welcome to the internets. LURK MOAR>

"treich007: The vaccines gave her TOXICITY, and Dr. Buttar removed the toxicity from her body, and she became cured."

Excellent choice, a veritable wellspring of inadvertent pith:

"I never said being gay is contagious. Please stop throwing out statements like that, which I never made. But yes, being gay can be a side effect of soy formula."

"Are you making fun of my name? I told my husband that Reich is a bad last name because its associated with that"

"None of the conventional-thinking people ever respond to me either."

Etc.

By Black Helicopters (not verified) on 07 Nov 2009 #permalink

5 cases after millions of vaccinations. And not confirmed, just suspected. Well that certainly worries me...not.

Of course, the Gen Rescue and Desiree website versions will remain the "official" story because there will be no independent evaluation of her condition and any doctors who actually examined her are bound by patient confidentiality not to discuss any aspects of her case. The lack of statements from them would suggest that Desiree never signed a release to allow them to speak. I assume that Dr. Buttar has this release (probably a precondition of his treatment of her--he will get huge numbers of new patients because of this).

When Gen Rescue first got involved in this case, they had a link on their website for donations to Desiree. They removed any mention for a while, but now they have a link about supporting Desiree but no donation link. However, I wonder how much money was donated while this link was active? And how much of a bump in donations did Gen Rescue receive?

At least His work with Desiree will make him famous world wide...

Did anyone else notice brian's peculiar use of capitalization â messianic, one might almost say â as regards "Dr." Buttar?

Bizarre.

I got my H1N1 shot yesterday here in China. The aftereffects were ... none.

My experience I am sure is typical, and just too boring to attract any attention. Jennings' situation was of course much more interesting, because it was an anomaly. Trouble is, some people only draw conclusions from the statistical anomalies reported in the news.

Add a pile of woo to the mix, and you get the anti-vax crusaders, running about like Chicken Little.

Buttar's lemming fanboy trolls are unintentionally convincing in one aspect of this thread - they are either patients getting discounts on Buttar's urine injections (hopefully they don't end up like the Cajun Cowboy - I mean that, trolls) or they're getting paid by the post.

Using Buttar's blog and Youtube propaganda (like Buttar's buddy - Ayoub's antisemetic/black helicopter rants) as evidence helps put their lemming psychosis in context. Back to your rocks, Buttarfans.

Good God, Brian, do you do anything other than read this blog? Tell me, do you feel a thrill up your leg when you're replying to stuff? Are you a... dare I say it... Troll?

We do have a serious anti-vax troll infestation at the moment. It began with DF, and others have piled on. In fact, it's one of the worst ones I've had in a long time. Fear not, though. these things virtually always blow over. I'm not about to change my liberal commenting policies yet, where I've only ever banned three commenters in nearly five years. Even DF and brian haven't quite reached John Best or Crazy Dawn levels of annoyance, but they're sure enough trying.

Patience, and don't feed the trolls...unless of course you want to play with them a bit, as I have sometimes been known to do.

And don't forget, people like brian are only trying to make a living. Plus, he's got a family to support. So please, show a little sympathy.
I'm sure a conman like Dr. Buttar probably doesn't pay his shills too much. Though I wonder: if you're a paid shill for an alt-med group, do you get health insurance? Now, wouldn't that spike your Irony Meter!

By LibraryGuy (not verified) on 07 Nov 2009 #permalink

Patience, and don't feed the trolls...unless of course you want to play with them a bit, as I have sometimes been known to do.

I personally have a pretty simple rule: never reply for the benefit of the troll; only reply if showing where the troll is wrong might be educational for some other reader out there. It's kinda like we're staging our own little play and the troll has graciously volunteered to play the role of "Goofus" to our "Gallant".

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 07 Nov 2009 #permalink

Seriously though, to get back to the subject: Where do you think this whole dog 'n pony show is going? Will Desiree suddenly get a "surprise" visit from Jim 'n Jennie (with photographers in tow)? Will she be featured in People magazine? Perhaps she'll make it to the Mt. Olympus of mock-celebrityhood: Oprah!
And then, dare I say it? Her very own reality TV series! Watch our plucky young cheerleader as her marriage implodes under the harsh lights of fame!
Just remember: whatever bad happens to poor Desiree, you can blame it on the vaccine.

By LibraryGuy (not verified) on 07 Nov 2009 #permalink

do u think Desiree is delusional

Delusions are only one category within a larger category of "beliefs that are false." Right now we don't have enough evidence to say that Desiree specifically possesses delusions, though she certainly possesses false beliefs.

An example of a belief similar to Desiree's that would be a delusion: Dr. Novella told the story of the patient who was convinced that a certain IV medication would relieve his symptoms, and then reported symptom relief at a time before the medication he requested even entered his bloodstream. Dr. Novella didn't say whether the doctors explained this to the patient, and explained what the logical implications of that were. But if they explained very carefully that it meant his own mind had generated the symptom relief, and was able to do that almost certainly because the mind had generated the symptoms originally, and the patient insisted instead that medication which had not even yet entered his arm had in fact induced physiological relief, that would be a delusion.

(Orac, I do apologize for veering slightly off-topic; I've wanted to leave this as a comment on the SBM "It's All In Your Head" post on psychogenic conditions, but you have to register there, and I haven't had the chance yet.)

If I had to treat psychogenic conditions, I think my favored method of explaining them to the patient would use the metaphor of microphone feedback: it might have been triggered by something outside, but now it's the system which is continuing the effect by itself. And if the original cause is in fact still there and causing part of the total effect, it's still important to eliminate the feedback part of the effect, because otherwise all the evidence which might allow the original cause to be diagnosed and treated is swallowed up in the evidence of the feedback effect.

However, it's possible that the original cause, whatever it was, is transitory and has already cleared up on its own: a person who stretches a muscle in their leg painfully will learn to limp to minimize the pull on that muscle. This adaptation is functional while the muscle is healing, but at some point the original pull will have healed and the patient is still limping, not because the original cause is still there but because the patient detects their own limping and thinks "I must not have healed up yet; I'm still walking abnormally."

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 07 Nov 2009 #permalink

Ms. Jennings did not diagnose herself with dystonia! You seem to completely dismiss the fact that John Hopkins and one other hospital agree on this diagnosis

Prove it to me, Greg. This is something I've been asking other people as well. Find me any mainstream doctor who says "I examined Desiree Jennings and I diagnosed dystonia."

Because in every story about someone with a real* medical condition, you'll have that: the reporters want to get the best information about the condition and the person's particular case of it and so they go to the doctor(s) who diagnosed the patient or are treating her and they say "What can you tell me about her condition?" and the doctor will say "Oh, Ms. Jones has Such-And-Such Syndrome; let me describe the typical presentation and how Ms. Jones' case differs from the usual" and that information will be duly presented to the reader or viewer.

And in Jennings' case that didn't happen. The reporter who "broke the story" assured us "Doctors at Johns Hopkins say this, doctors at the Mayo Clinic say that" but didn't put a single doctor up on the screen to say that for themselves. Why wouldn't they do that? If you were a reporter covering the story of an unusual medical condition, why would you skip such an obvious source that would be so important to the credibility of your story?

If, on the other hand, you were a reporter and a friend of yours came to you and said "Please report on my tragic condition and also report that I think I got it from the flu vaccine!" would you say "Sure, I'll do it, but I'll have to handle it like I do any other news story, which includes fully considering the possibility that you're delusional, malingering or perpetrating a hoax?" Would you really? Don't you think a reporter in a situation like that would be tempted to say "Well, okay, you say that doctors told you this and doctors told you that; I guess I'll just take your second-hand account of what they said as what they really said"? (You were aware that the reporter who broke the story belatedly admitted what they should have in the first place, that they were friends with Desiree Jennings before the alleged dystonia, right?)

* Psychogenic conditions are real, of course, but they are not the conditions they present as.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 07 Nov 2009 #permalink

@Antaeus Feldspar
Thank you. This is what I so poorly tried to say earlier. I should have been more concise.

"...is why groups that want people to act in their own best interests, and to do the sensible thing, have to plan how to convince people to do that. So they need recipes. Recipes for getting people to buckle up. Recipes for getting people to wear their helmets. Recipes for getting people to put on their life vests. Recipes for getting people to get their flu shots."

I'm an idiot for trying to illustrate my point the way I did (it WAS deliberately mean-spirited), and I apologize. I think I ended up causing more harm than good. Yet this is what I meant... look at the list, folks. Is Brian backing down? Or is he ramping up, tightening his resolve, and redoubling his efforts to defend those he represents? At the same time, Luna is still correct... what other conscientious course of action do we have, other than showing fraud for fraud, and attempting to save lives? Antaeus spoke rightly.

Regarding Brian -
Maybe he truly believes everything he says. Maybe he doesn't. Either way, he is responsible for what he said, and what he continues to say. I hope he keeps that mind, for the months to come. If his conviction is so strong that he reads these words and thinks, "oh, I will be. We'll show you all, you scoffed at us, and we'll throw the proof in your face"... some part of him will remember. Maybe there will even be shame. I wouldn't count on it, though. And if he's "paid to believe", which I find both equally plausible and cynical of me, then it's moot. Antaeus, if you have a recipe you trust, please send it to me care of Orac, if he's willing. I'll at least try to apply it close to home. I can't convince the anti-vaxxers in my life to even look at the evidence... Fox News drove that out of them. They're too scared and too convinced of what they've been told to even bother to check. They may not ALL be that way, but the ones I know are. I can't force them to read what they refuse to read. If I bring up the subject, it's "LA-LA-LA-LA", fingers in the ears... If they bring it up, it's fear, vitriol, and then the fingers, should I bother to retort. And yeah, in case you're wondering, it's plain-speak, I don't talk like I write. That attitude wouldn't fly anyway. I've even tried just saying some statistics as fast as I can, but they don't want to know. What can I do?

It would take some really good acting to fake it.

I think it's a bit harsh, maybe he is a quack but at least he's trying, the hospitals just discharged her.

As for the shot, fuck me it's a flu shot. You're not going to die without it. Frankly if you're a normal healthy, young human being I don't think you need it. Flu kills people every year, the "swine flu" probably isn't going to kill you, in my country we've had 7,000 cases with only just 7 deaths, all being elderly people on their last legs anyway. Really I think anyone with a healthy disposition is gonna be fine.

Shots have always been controversial. And both sides have their arguments. Really what it comes down to is do you want to put some foreign object in your body, which you have no clue about really what it does or what's in it, or do you want to take the slim chance of getting a flu that's just going to probably keep you in bed for a couple of days.

Tbh I'd go without it just so I don't roll the dice on the nurse fucking it up and injecting oxygen up my vein.

RE: #165 Neener

"May I make a suggestion? ....wash your hands, exercise, eat well, live healthy, & fight off bacteria and viruses the old fashion way (like humans have done for 50,000 years.)"

Remember the 1918 pandemic flu? The most affected population was the healthy population. An estimated 20-50 million people died. The avian flu and H1N1 flu both have the potential to cause death at this level. I'm thankful "only hundreds" of people have died thanks to diligent reporting, containment, and treatment. I consider myself to be healthy but I do not go as far as to think that vegetables and treadmill time will protect me from the wrath of an emerging pathogen unleashing its power on a naive population. We must learn from the past and not allow history to repeat itself if we are able to help it. We're more educated and can use advances in research and medicine to prevent pandemic flu-related deaths.

Well, if brian is a shill for . . . someone, they need to get their money back, or at least hire someone with basic grammar and typing skills. Brian honey, you know when the little red line shows up under the word you just typed? Well, that means it's wrong. It makes you seem a little angry and/or stupid when you don't check your posts for accuracy. OK, at least spelling accuacy. The accuracy of the content seems to me to be beyond hope.

An ad hominem attack? Maybe. But if you want to be taken seriously on a science blog, make sure that your posts don't look as though they were produced by a Rhesus Monkey on meth.

Just got the H1N1 shot for my 2 year old and within the next half hour, she sat still at SuperCuts for her very first haircut. So the flu shot must cause compliance at the hairdresser. Is this something I should report to the VAERS or should I just continue to watch her closely?

By gpmtrixie (not verified) on 07 Nov 2009 #permalink

The color of one of the bags on her iv stands looks a little scary.

Okay, update on my 2 year old. I was worried because cooperative behavior is just not normal for her. My mommy intuition told me something was wrong. So I had her go through a session with those brave maverick naturopaths, Drs. D. Duck and B. Bunny. I'm happy to say she's back to her normal demanding, bipolar toddler behavior. It may be the placebo effect, but I don't care, she's cured!

By gpmtrixie (not verified) on 07 Nov 2009 #permalink

T Hood:
You have just demonstrated that everything you know about influenza and the vaccine is wrong.

By T. Bruce McNeely (not verified) on 07 Nov 2009 #permalink

"Flu kills people every year, the "swine flu" probably isn't going to kill you, in my country we've had 7,000 cases with only just 7 deaths, all being elderly people on their last legs anyway."

What country do you live in? And are we speaking of planet Earth here?

"Shots have always been controversial. And both sides have their arguments. Really what it comes down to is do you want to put some foreign object in your body"

And that's exactly why I get seasonal flu shots and will get the H1N1 vaccine when available. Influenza is one of the nastier foreign objects that gets into your body - full of foreign DNA, foreign proteins - I don't like to seem xenophobic but it's one foreign invader I'd prefer to keep out of my body.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 07 Nov 2009 #permalink

"AS expected you know squat about the treatments he uses. the reason is if a doctor doesnt use poisonous medicines, he is said to be using placebo"

Hate to tell you this, champ but, chelation?....uh, yeah, poisonous chemicals.And read up on the diagnosis of dystonia to attempt to understandwhy so many are so skeptical, particularly why her specific constellation of symptoms don't make sense neurologically speaking.Names of those Johns Hopkins docs would be nice. And comparing Buttars to Semmelweiss...delicious irony, since Semmeweiss' was right because of the "microbe" theory that your Dr. Bell........oh, never mind......But THood there have been over 30 deaths in my state alone, mostly H1N1 which is showing a prediliction for the young and otherwise healthy so I don't know where you're getting your information.My own personal observations in my clinic has a 3 fold increase in the number of confirmed cases this year over last, so yes it's likely to be a bad season.

dr J'
'Of course, the Gen Rescue and Desiree website versions will remain the "official" story because there will be no independent evaluation of her condition and any doctors who actually examined her are bound by patient confidentiality not to discuss any aspects of her case'

Doctors at John Hopkins confirmed he case...You sound like a descendent of the doctors who attacked Semmelweiss. If you had your way, she still be ill adn likely dead...
I notice your 'confidentiality' would mean noone was to be told that her injury was due to vaccines...That way the doctors would not be robbed of this source of income

@ brian: I'm French, and I can tell you that that video is full of stupid! They are conflating a worst-case hypothesis about the swine flu (if the virus kills 1 patient in 1000 people infected) with the hypothetic adverse effects of a vaccine, so that when they talk about "up to 60.000 deaths in France alone" and try to pass it of as a danger of the vaccine, they are in fact talking about the possible *swine flu deaths*!

BTW, the guy quoted with the , Marc Girard, is a genuine anti-vaccine activist. A True Believer (TM) in the evils of Big Pharma (TM) and the "mercury, formaldehyde and aluminum" content of vaccine. Way to get your info.

orac speaks: 'We do have a serious anti-vax troll infestation at the moment. It began with DF, and others have piled on. In fact, it's one of the worst ones I've had in a long time. Fear not, though. these things virtually always blow over. I'm not about to change my liberal commenting policies yet'

why thank u orac...And i will continue to us my freedom of speech to correct your unfortunate errors of judgement. Its amazing how many doctors defend toxic medication? They did it in Semmelweiss' time and they are still doing it. THATS the real infestation, or plague that thru their educatoin has p[revented them from acknowleging that what they are doing is harmful

'BTW, the guy quoted with the , Marc Girard, is a genuine anti-vaccine activist. A True Believer (TM) in the evils of Big Pharma (TM) and the "mercury, formaldehyde and aluminum" content of vaccine. Way to get your info.'

well, irene, the Truie Believers are those who believe vaccines are safe!In spite of all the evidence, such as Desirees case, nothing will shake them from their firm faith...
Desirees recovery by detox is further proof the case was heavy metal toxicity, whose source was the vaccine she had received... QED

ENT-TT 'Regarding Brian -
Maybe he truly believes everything he says. Maybe he doesn't. '

yes ENT, i do back what i say. AND desiree jennings is just proof im in the right.

'I can't convince the anti-vaxxers in my life to even look at the evidence... Fox News drove that out of them'

yes, FOX news used the best method to drive out evil: the evidence it is evil!

May I make a suggestion? ....wash your hands, exercise, eat well, live healthy, & fight off bacteria and viruses the old fashion way

Yes, we saw how well that worked for the 11% of the clean, young, physically fit, healthy cadets who came down with the novel H1N1 virus at the Air Force Academy this summer.

IF placebos can cure, ,why arent they used by the medical profession?

There are prescription placebos, e.g. Obecalp (Placebo spelled backwards.) A doctor once prescribed me one of these. I guess he didn't realize I hit PubMed and Scholar after any and all prescriptions.

I dated a girl that is friends with Desiree, and as PHred said, Baloon Girl is fitting.

By h to the a (not verified) on 07 Nov 2009 #permalink

Doctors at John Hopkins confirmed he case

If you can't tell us the name of the Hopkins doc that stands behind the original diagnosis, you need to shut up. Also, it's incredibly stupid of you to try and use the Hopkins name to back your half-literate arguments. Hopkins is big name in very same medicine that you're attempting to criticize.

By Joseph C. (not verified) on 07 Nov 2009 #permalink

the company we keep:

a recent posting on a youtube video of Desirees recovery:

whosoever (3 hours ago)
Vaccines are safer than soda and cheese sandwiches. I'll put my lot in with scientists, not cheerleaders and their discredited doctors. For straight talk about vaccines read the recent Wired article about autism or anything on scienceblogsdotcom.
==================
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gxp7lh6HuTo&feature=player_embedded#

whatever!

safe as soda and cheese? is that the opinion of Orac and others here?The above person seems to think so and links to this site to prove it!

obecalp: ah yes, BUT there is a problem with placebos:

'But some experts question the premise behind the tablets. âPlacebos are unpredictable,â said Dr. Howard Brody, a medical ethicist and family physician at the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston. âEach and every time you give a placebo you see a dramatic response among some people and no response in others.â

He added that there was no way to predict who would respond. '

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/27/health/27plac.html

I wonder why the inventor hasnt been hauled before the courts! the doctors must regard this as harmless to their income...unike the very UNplacebo treatment of Dr Buttar.

Desiree Jennings treatment is not placebo by any defn.

Lawsuit seeks to halt US swine flu vaccination campaign
By AFP â Thu Oct 15, 3:10 PM PDT

WASHINGTON (AFP) â New York medical workers took legal action Thursday to halt a massive swine flu inoculation program being rolled out across the United States, claiming the vaccines have not been properly tested.

A nasal spray dose of the H1N1/swine flu vaccine is administered to Ashley Marti, 9, at Montefiore Medical Center October 6 in the Bronx borough of New York City. New York medical staff took legal action Thursday to halt a massive swine flu inoculation program being rolled out across the United States, claiming the vaccines have not been properly tested.(AFP/Getty Images/File/Mario Tama)

Lawyers for the group filed a temporary restraining order in a Washington federal court against government medical regulators they claim rushed H1N1 vaccines to the public without adequately testing their safety and efficacy.

âNone of the vaccines against H1N1 have been properly tested,â attorney Jim Turner, one of half a dozen lawyers working on the case, told AFP.

The complaint filed Thursday argued that far from preventing a massive outbreak of swine flu, the âlive attenuated influenza virus nasal mist vaccine could triggerâ an H1N1 pandemic.

âI donât know of another live vaccine for flu. So you have immediately a new problem you donât have with a killed vaccine,â Turner told AFP.

Officials at the National Institutes of Health have said that trials of swine flu vaccine began in August and delivered results last month, showing that the vaccine was well tolerated and produced a robust immune response in older children and adults in good health with just a single dose.

But Turner insisted that âthe FDA did not do the proper testing to show safety and efficacy of this vaccine, which is under the law a new drug.

âWhen I say test data, I donât mean some professor at some medical school somewhere infected some students and said âI donât see any problems.â

âWhat I mean is carefully conducted double blind placebo controlled studies trials done in accordance with FDA regulations, and a whole series of them to look at dosing⦠which are then reviewed by FDA scientists.

âNone of that has been done on this vaccination and weâre saying the law requires it to be done,â Turner said.
etc

http://www.drbuttar.com/blog/?p=601

âI donât know of another live vaccine for flu. So you have immediately a new problem you donât have with a killed vaccine,â Turner told AFP.

Can someone more knowledgeable on the topic speak to this? Because I was pretty sure that the existence of FluMist would make this statement very false.

feldspar:
'Well, that's a very blatant double standard: Jennings' doctors can safely be accused of lying their heads off before they even get a chance to speak for themselves, but no one can be allowed to suggest that Jennings was even mistaken. It's no wonder that you've come to the conclusion that orthodox medicine failed Desiree Jennings: not because the facts support that conclusion, but because you've rigged your process of examination so blatantly that the facts have nothing to do with it.'

Jennings didnt make any of the diagnoses.,..that was done by doctors at places like John Hopkins...u can track down their names.
The facts is she was diagnosed with dystonia...due to the flu vaccine she d been given...she wsas cured by Dr Buttar using detox to remove the toxic elements...Her improvement is proof she was had toxic metals in her. They werent their before the vaccination, ergo they were introducded at that time...

I'm betting GR was just waiting for any story of any vaccine-related issue to pop up during this H1N1 immunization campaign to launch a media blitz. It wasn't even 24 hours after a young British girl died following a Gardasil immunization when Jenny and Jim called to send condolences. Once it was determined that the actual cause of death was a tumor, they disappeared. Apparently, dying of a tumor isn't worthy of celebrity/GR attention.

How perfect. A pretty cheerleader has problems after a shot and GR is there to help. Meanwhile, we've lost over a hundred children to H1N1. Again, I guess their deaths are not worthy of attention either.

These people are pathetic.

Brian,

Do you have any links to any other person (anywhere in the world, U.S., Canada, EU, Australia, Japan, China, etc.) who has contracted dystonia from the seasonal of H1N1 vaccines in use? Out of more than 250 million doses given thus far, she appears to be the only one. What's your expert explanation?

Orac, absolutely love your blog. Am in awe mostly. You claim ignorance in diagnosing Desiree fully, yet I doubt it. I am a Family Doc of 28 years. Within 3 secs of the original video I knew this was BS. Desiree is not an innocent victim although she may well beout of her depth. She is well aware of her behaviour and is a manipulative little so-and-so. Likely a cluster B with a Narcissistic trait.

And ENT-TT has a point worth consideration. @27

Good God, Brian, do you do anything other than read this blog?

This answers that question:

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By a perfect circle (not verified) on 07 Nov 2009 #permalink

experts speak out against vaccines:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2x8S2a12UI&feature=related

RJ:' It wasn't even 24 hours after a young British girl died following a Gardasil immunization when Jenny and Jim called to send condolences. Once it was determined that the actual cause of death was a tumor, they disappeared. Apparently, dying of a tumor isn't worthy of celebrity/GR attention.'

care to back that up with evidence,or are u bappy to leabve yourself open to a libel suit?
if she died from a tumor, then what has that to do with GR!

if she died from a tumor, then what has that to do with GR!

Well, yeah.

Do you actually read what you write?

yes (IM)Perfect circle... i provide an alternative point of view.

tony:'Orac, absolutely love your blog. Am in awe mostly. You claim ignorance in diagnosing Desiree fully, yet I doubt it. I am a Family Doc of 28 years. Within 3 secs of the original video I knew this was BS. Desiree is not an innocent victim although she may well beout of her depth. She is well aware of her behaviour and is a manipulative little so-and-so. Likely a cluster B with a Narcissistic trait.'

You made a diagnosis from looking at a video and without interviewing the patient...Thats medical malpractice...no real doctor would do that!

'Orac, absolutely love your blog. Am in awe mostly. You claim ignorance in diagnosing Desiree fully'

Orac a surgeon is not qualified to even hear her case, and as he hasnt interviewed her in person, of course he must claim ignorance.

You also seem to think you are a psychiatrist! I think your post is Bull.

RJ
I didnt make the diagnosis that was done by doctors at places like John Hopkins....Are there more cases of dystonia from vaccines? No idea, unless they are made public..
BUT vaccine injury is common...
http://www.vaccineinjury.org/

NOTE the Bush govt put a rider in one Homeland security law immunsing(...sorry!) the vaccine manufacturers:

'âDocuments released through the Freedom of Information Act, detail the transcript of a meeting held in June of 2000 between members of the CDC, the FDA, and representatives from the vaccine industry.â

The reported number of autism cases is being described as epidemic and growing. As parents struggle to provide treatment for their autistic children, the Bush Administration has taken steps to keep these parents in the dark by petitioning a federal court to keep all documents from the American people on hundreds of cases of autism believed caused by childhood vaccines. On November 25, 2003, Department of Justice lawyers asked a U.S. Court of Federal Claims to âto seal the documents, arguing that allowing their automatic disclosure would take away the right of federal agencies to decide when and how the material should be released.â

How does Homeland Security play into this unfolding tragedy for untold numbers of children and their parents?

The Homeland Security Bill contained two paragraphs in the 475-page document that immunizes vaccine manufacturers against the threat of lawsuits. Specifically, pharmaceutical maker Eli Lilly & Company benefits from such immunity because prior to President Bush signing the bill into law, they were the target of a massive class action lawsuit on behalf of autistic children. The parents of these children believe that the mercury (thimerosol) added to vaccines as a preservative caused their childrenâs brain damage.

President Bush signed the Homeland Security Bill into law, effectively snuffing out parentâs ability to sue the pharmaceutical companies individually and leaving them with brain damaged children and financial hardship. Supporters of this new law maintain that it was necessary because all these lawsuits could have driven vaccine makers out of business. Opponents point out that by shifting the lawsuits from state courts to the Federal Court of Claims, it represents a financial boon for pharmaceutical companies because dollar awards will come from the government and widespread industry fees than from individual companies. '

http://www.vlrc.org/articles/64.html

SO the vaccine industry knew ful well their vaccines were dangerous...and got the Bush govt to protect their profits.

so now it's okay to laugh at the original video?

brian's inane posts = cha-ching

He is a spammer rivaling any spambot out there, nothing else.

no to,m its not ok to laugh,...imagine of it had been your daughter or wife Only unfeeling sociopaths laugh at others misfortunes

Only unfeeling sociopaths laugh at others misfortunes

Guess someone isn't a Three Stooges fan.

By redfish123 (not verified) on 07 Nov 2009 #permalink

There is still no evidence Jennings was ever diagnosed with dystonia, nor that she was diagnosed at Johns Hopkins

Not a single neurologist who has seen her video nor national advocacy organizations (e.g. the Dystonia Medical Research Foundation) believes she ever had dystonia.

Currently Jennings is nothing more than a self-reporter, both on her alleged dystonia and its alleged cure.

Yes! Yes! Orec. I guess we can include you in the flat earth group who called the round earth people heretics and quacks. If it's not traditional medicine it is no good. I suspect you are a physician since I worked as a lab technologists for almost 40 years and always said that an M.D. degree was a license to kill. When the Canadian and Australian doctors went on strike several years ago the mortality rate dropped almos 50%. Doctors refuse to allow their own family members to be treated with traditional chemotherapy and radiation because they know it does more harm than good. So who is the hypocrite here? At least the reembursement is still good when the unknowing patient is subjected to this false hope. But now that the $1.2 trillion healthcare reform bill has passed even that cash cow may come to an abupt end especially if you are over 55 years of age.

Wow. brian must've gotten tired. They've brought in a relief shill.

By LibraryGuy (not verified) on 07 Nov 2009 #permalink

I suspect you are a physician

Ooh!!! Brilliant deduction, since Orac introduces his blog by stating he is a surgeon/scientist right at the top of his page.

When the Canadian and Australian doctors went on strike several years ago the mortality rate dropped almos 50%.

Not true in Canada. And why do uninsured people and Christian Scientists have shorter lifespans than the average?

By T. Bruce McNeely (not verified) on 07 Nov 2009 #permalink

I suspect you are a physician since I worked as a lab technologists for almost 40 years and always said that an M.D. degree was a license to kill.

So it's safe to assume that you're a player hater?

By Joseph C. (not verified) on 07 Nov 2009 #permalink

Brian's mercury-filled tuna is still bothering me. According to him, the mercury binds to the protein, the protein passes through the body and is excreted along with the mercury...

Is there a reason I bought and ate that tuna, then? See, I've only got introductory college bio, but I sorta thought I might, you know, digest some of that fish. Not have it all just pass right through me like the nibbled edge of a Styrofoam coffee cup.

(Maybe the tuna would go down better if braised in a little rancid butter?)

'Ooh!!! Brilliant deduction, since Orac introduces his blog by stating he is a surgeon/scientist right at the top of his page. '

yes, hes a surgeon, thats all. Being a scientist however does not automatically make him qualified to comment on Desiree, any more than the rest of us.

'When the Canadian and Australian doctors went on strike several years ago the mortality rate dropped almos 50%.'

I hadnt heard that .I do know that in israel during a hospital strike, the death rate dropped!

'Industrial action by doctors in Israel seems to be good for their patients' health. Death rates have dropped considerably in most of the country since physicians in public hospitals implemented a programme of sanctions three months ago, according to a survey of burial societies'
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/320/7249/1561

Remember that George Washinton was bled to death by his doctors...Semmelweiss had the entire medical profession of his country against him when he showed by not washing their hands after curring up corpses, then going on to deliver babies they were killing them.

Voltaire on the medical profession:

'Doctors are men who prescribe medicines of which they know little, to cure diseases of which they know less, in human beings of whom they know nothing.'

Nothing has changed!

Here is why i have to post at all:

Bill:'There is still no evidence Jennings was ever diagnosed with dystonia, nor that she was diagnosed at Johns Hopkins

Not a single neurologist who has seen her video nor national advocacy organizations (e.g. the Dystonia Medical Research Foundation) believes she ever had dystonia.

Currently Jennings is nothing more than a self-reporter, both on her alleged dystonia and its alleged cure.'

1. Why dont u call John Hopkins and find out? Or at least contact Fox news, as they had the medical results (you can see them on THIS video at 1 min 35:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4MIm1mB7GM
Go on, look!

at 1 min 33, you can hear her husband talk about how she was taken to an urgent care facility, and how wshe had seizure there, and an ambulance had to be called.

NOW its clear that YOU are claiming she is shamming. Self reporting? The fox news team HAVE her medical diagnosis! Its right there...
Youre not just a despicable liar and fraud(are u seeking attention?), in impugning Desirees character based on your own pro-vaccine obsession, your opening yourself to libel.

Brian, people like you should be able to opt out of all formal healthcare completely, pledge never to take life-saving drugs, and let your idealised 'nature' take its course. I know somebody who followed this path and it only ended when she literally rotted away in front of us, in hideous pain, with completely untreated breast cancer. Unfortunately you'll still have to tolerate that pesky effect of herd immunity from many infectious diseases - due to the fact that most sane people vaccinate, but I guess we can't begrudge you and your children that. Somebody needs to look out for them!

By NZ Sceptic (not verified) on 07 Nov 2009 #permalink

"Doctors refuse to allow their own family members to be treated with traditional chemotherapy and radiation because they know it does more harm than good."

Do you actually know any doctors?

I do. I have known doctors who saw their spouses and children suffer cancer. I have known doctors who lost spouses and parents to cancer. I knew two doctors who died of cancer. Every last one of those doctors got themselves and their loved ones the best medicine available (surgery when possible, and chemotherapy and radiation) in order to save them or at least extend and improve their lives.

Your bigotry against doctors is despicable.

NZsceptic: 'take life-saving drugs,'

now heres the problem, NZ, HOW do you get the public to take a toxic chemical drug?
Answer: claim its 'life-saving'.
What this means is a mercury added vaccine is lifesaving if it keeps the patient from dying from a disease he may never get, BUT also causes neurological problems...No worries! His life at least has been saved!

the slogan 'Life-saving' is called SPIN.

FYI: Modern medicine has killed more people than the military in the past century...Saving what???
http://www.whale.to/a/null9.html

as for breast cancer: what your doctor wont tell u:

http://www.cancersupportinternational.com/janeplant.com/book-nodairy.asp

'Your bigotry against doctors is despicable.'

but not half so despicable or dangerous as ignorance of alternative cancer therapies of which there are legion, and all ignored by the medical profession

http://www.cancure.org/choiceoftherapy.htm

"I notice your 'confidentiality' would mean noone was to be told that her injury was due to vaccines...That way the doctors would not be robbed of this source of income"

Confidentiality belongs to the patient, not the doctors. If she wanted her medical records opened to the public, she had only to instruct that they be opened. In fact, in this case, confidentiality means that no one can dispute her claims about what her doctors told her.

Brian:

"imagine of it had been your daughter or wife Only unfeeling sociopaths laugh at others misfortunes"

OK, we won't laugh.
But we will regard claims that the vaccine is dangerous with hilarity.

After all, in the exceedingly rare event that it might cause this type of problem, people can rest assured that a few minutes of some quack treatment is all it takes to restore the afflicted to full, robust health.

The vaccine isn't really harmful, people, problems it may cause can be fixed in the blink of an eye.

brian:

Referencing whale.to and Gary Null?

'Nuff said.

By T. Bruce McNeely (not verified) on 07 Nov 2009 #permalink

"After all, in the exceedingly rare event that it might cause this type of problem, people can rest assured that a few minutes of some quack treatment is all it takes to restore the afflicted to full, robust health."

That's a good point. If I had an autistic child who was being chelated for months and years to remove mercury from a vaccination years ago, I'd want to know why my child hadn't been instantly restored to full, robust heath just like Jennings.

Brian has now referenced a whale.to website in addition to the inane YouTube videos and cancer scam clinics, like they have validity. Now the question is was he born stupid, or was he born just a half wit and work hard to become a complete idiot?

Anyway, according to Scopie's Law:

In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses you the argument immediately ...and gets you laughed out of the room.

Brian, you are not even a troll: You are just one colossal source of comedy material. We are not laughing at Desiree Jennings (yes, she was actually ill with a real disease even if it was in her head, and it was not caused by a vaccine), but we are definitely laughing at you.

MEDICAL PROOF DESIREE HAD A SOMATIC DISORDER

Her Fairfax Inova medical record says so!

(Thanks Brian for alerting us to the records, which Desiree obviously did not keep "confidential" from Fox News.)

It's right there at 1minute and 37seconds into this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4MIm1mB7GM

IMPRESSION:
1. Multiple somatic complaints following a seasonal flu vaccination, August 30 2009

Everyone knows what multiple somatic symptoms are a sign of, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatoform_disorder

hi chris, you are what id call a medical fundamentalist. Closed to any and all ideas that dont originate with an MD, and even when they do, oppose them if they are not accepted by gthe industry.

'Brian, you are not even a troll: You are just one colossal source of comedy material. We are not laughing at Desiree Jennings (yes, she was actually ill with a real disease even if it was in her head, and it was not caused by a vaccine), but we are definitely laughing at you.'

Really, and here i thought i was providing information you may not be aware of. But then your conditioning is sound,. It prevents even a glimmer of other ideas from penetrating.

Many of your kind DO laugh at Desiree...just check out the youtubes of her plight.

a real disease 'in her head'. Now thats the trouble...'in her head' can mean brain injury or delusion. To call her problem brain injury upsets the vaccine advocates. they prefer Psychogenic, ie delusional.

DT:'(Thanks Brian for alerting us to the records, which Desiree obviously did not keep "confidential" from Fox News.)'

Youre jumping to conclusion (as you do when you assume vaccines are safe and save lives)...we dont know who gave the records...In any case, its her case...not yours and not the doctors. But you cant have it both ways: no records: no illness...records...'violates confidentiality'
THANKS to Fox News(and i cant believe im saying this!), the world has some insight into the dangers of vacine toxicity, and as we see the doctors are closing ranks to deny the record, the fact the illness was caused by a vaccine, and protect their investment.

Brian, I think the issue that we're seeing here is this: we want repeatable evidence, a reasonable record of increased incidence of a particular injury, and a logical, plausible physiological effect for a potential therapy, and there is none for vaccine-caused dystonia, nor for chelation as a treatment for said affliction.

I am absolutely willing to listen to anyone, doctor or not, who can show these things to me. For example, a couple of high-school kids came up with a gene therapy that very well might lead to a cure for muscular dystrophy (link). Do you really think that new idea was discriminated against because it wasn't coming from an MD? No, I don't see how you could make that judgment.

However, none of the people who actually study dystonia believe that there was a physiological basis for Jennings' case, and you have yet to produce any accredited person who is willing to claim to have diagnosed this girl with anything other than a psychogenic disorder.

That, in addition to the lack of any kind of scientifically logical basis for this treatment that she has undergone, makes us understandably skeptical.

Further, I recently Hulked out and destroyed my favorite pair of slacks after receiving my flu vaccine. I would appreciate my VAER report not being mocked on these pages, the database is 100% accurate.

No Brian, regarding confidentiality of medical records it is you who "wants it both ways", and it is you who is jumping to conclusions.

You whine that the diagnosis has been made by doctors, yet when we wish to see documentation you claim medical confidentiality. Yet Desiree has already shown her medical records to Fox News, as you alerted us to (thanks again!).

Now these records clearly indicate the doctors' impression was that she was suffering a somatic disorder, you suddenly accuse us of "jumping to conclusions"!

Tell you what. Contact Desiree, ask her to put a transcript of the records where we can all see them for what they are and resolve any lingering doubt. She showed Fox News the records to broadcast to the Nation, so she cares little about "confidentiality", except when it now appears to be in her best interests to come over all shy about them.

'However, none of the people who actually study dystonia believe that there was a physiological basis for Jennings' case, and you have yet to produce any accredited person who is willing to claim to have diagnosed this girl with anything other than a psychogenic disorder.'

youre joking damien... she was diagnosed as such at John Hopkins,,,the only doctors saying its 'psychogenic' are the ones who havent examined her!Theyve just seen the videos...thats unethical.

BUT that they are using the 'psychogenic' excuse means they must be specialists in psychiatry...right? Theyve made a diagnosis without seeing the patient, or doig tests...NOW given theyve done this to counter the dystonia diagnosis, what is their game? Are they vaccine zealots heading off public concerns? This is a serious matter.

But of course, you are joking....

Brian, you continue to cite John Hopkins, but have yet to name one of the doctors there who examined her. Secondly, as has previously been pointed out, the doctors there cannot speak for themselves and confirm nor deny that they diagnosed her as such. Since we would both be speculating as to what they would say, why don't we agree not to bring the mute physicians into this discussion?

Thirdly, and this is most important, just because she has what is technically called "dystonia" in the sense of not having control of her musculature, does not mean that it must necessarily have a physical cause. The brain is a highly developed organ that is intertwined inextricably with the mind; if the mind truly believes something strongly enough it can be made manifest in the brain, and thus affect someone physically.

And it must be pointed out that true physically-caused dystonia looks and behaves nothing like Desiree Jennings' case. A competent neurologist knows the symptoms and presentations of most, if not all, conditions that physically cause dystonia, and as it is a highly-visible disease, it's not hard to separate those cases that are physical versus psychogenic (note that psychogenic encompasses more than mental illness, so I am in no way saying she is crazy).

Fourth, my assumption would be that those people who are stating that her constellation of symptoms do not match dystonia are after what we're all after: a safer, healthier world. However, what they and I are worried about is a deadly pandemic of flu, especially one in the H1N1 family. Given that the deadly epidemic of 1918 started off with a benign winter which then led the next year to hundreds of millions of deaths and infections, I don't feel this is an unreasonable concern.

Lastly, I am addressing you as a gentleman, please do me the same courtesy.

Thank you.

because she was examined at John hopkins and elsewhere, i dont need to make any bargains, Damien.

As for the rest of your speculative drivel...she only came down with her illnes AFTER she got a vaccine for an illnes she didnt have and might not get! This is not the sort of preventive medicine people need.

Psychogenic: a defn:
psy·cho·gen·ic (sk-jnk)
adj.
Originating in the mind or in mental or emotional processes; having a psychological rather than a physiological origin. Used of certain disorders.

Actually, if Brian said some vaccine rendered him completely retarded and deluded, I might just believe him. I mean the retarded and deluded part.

Once again, I ask you politely to act as a gentleman in this discourse. Is that truly too much to ask?

Now then, as to your points.

1. Yes, she was examined at these places, but the doctors have not and, most importantly, cannot come forward to dispute either Jennings' or your characterization of their diagnoses. Further, because they refused to admit her or administer treatment, it indicates to me that they were unable to find a physical cause (see below). Merely because she was examined at a given place does not give weight to the idea that she was suffering from physiologic dystonia, which is the point I was making.

2. As I'm sure you know, viruses fall into a group of diseases that does not have a wide variety of biological countermeasures. There are antivirals, but they are generally regarded as far less effective than antibiotics. This is why we are able to treat Strep, but the common cold continues to elude us. Therefore, the best protection we have against a virus is the vaccine, but it only works if we get it before we are infected. And further, vaccines fall into something of a bind here, because they work very, very well, fewer people get the disease, and therefore it is assumed that no one actually needs the vaccine anymore. Well, let me assure you that there are dozens of viruses waiting in the margins to return full force, and they are kept at bay by vaccination campaigns.

3. As has been pointed out to you previously, and I'll reiterate, correlation does not equal causation. I myself got a flue vaccination two years ago, and the following day passed out dead away. Was it the vaccine? No, it turned out that I had forgotten about the aspirin I took and had two highballs that night, then decided to go jogging the next day. Blood thinner + blood thinner + exercise = me passed out. No vaccination blame needed.

As to your definition, yes that is the definition of psychogenic. And if something is not physiogenic, it must be psychogenic. As many, many people have examined her without finding a physical cause (and there really aren't that many that cause dystonia), it must be psychogenic. It's deductively sound.

Vaccines really have become a victim of their own success. Now that people live so much longer and, at least in the first world, live relatively free of debilitating, vaccine-preventable infectious diseases, the vaccines themselves have become target. Ironic, really.

VAERS is not reliable data, there is no verification or indication of causation, and it often just reports temporal associations.

Comments about Gardasil "deaths" are off topic, but to humor you I checked out deaths linked with HPV4.

First case up of the 11 that were reported shows "Death Certificate from epidemiologist which reveals COD asmultiorgan system failure and influenza B viral sepsis with contributing cause of staphyloccoccal secondary infection." Turns out she also had HPV vaccine, which was clearly coincidental.

Second case is a report that a nurse had been told "by a friend" that someone had died 2 weeks after a shot. No medical details, pure hearsay.

Etc etc.
Lots of reports with "a friend of a friend said..."
There's even a report of a patient who died with advanced AIDS who had HPV vaccine 45 days earlier.

And this is the quality of evidence you would have us rely on for "proof" from VAERS? There might be genuine cases hidden in the dross, but VAERS is a system for flagging up possible problems, not being used as "proof" that the problems were definitiely due to a vaccine.

Damien, just to point out that Fairfax Inova did admit her. She "underwent extensive inpatient investigation" which included assessment from cardiologists as well as infectious diseases specialists.

Their conclusion was she had "multiple somatic complaints".

I don't know about Hopkins - if they diagnosed dystonia then its in Desiree's interests to release this record to prove it. If she now choses to claim "confidentiality", it looks very much like she has something to hide, like maybe the doctors even at Hopkins did not diagnose vaccine induced problems?

DT, interesting, since I myself have seen a couple of cases of MSC.

That diagnosis does seem to fit her case, and the two cases of MSC that showed up while I was studying were both resolved by....wait for it....a saline drip coupled with a Flintstones Kids' Vitamin sludge colored pink. We called Flinkamin-NaCI, and gosh if it didn't cure them overnight.

Of course, we avoided getting sued by telling the patient exactly what they were getting: NaCI in the drip, with Flinkamin in the cup. ;P

Makes me even more convinced that chelation for non-heavy metal toxicity is basically a really high-tech Flinkamin.

To all:

Feeding the troll has long since gotten to the point of diminishing returns on this thread. Those who do so as a teaching tool for other less-informed/knowledgeable readers are making points that have been made over and over and over upthread as brian continues to make the same claims regardless of how many times and ways they are refuted. He is deaf to your words and and dumb to fact and reason. All replying to him is doing is, like a child's toy that speaks when you pull it's string, allowing him to repeat exactly the same nonsense ad nauseum.

So,

Please Do Not Feed The Troll.

By a perfect circle (not verified) on 08 Nov 2009 #permalink

I guess we can include you in the flat earth group who called the round earth people heretics and quacks. If it's not traditional medicine it is no good. I suspect you are a physician since I worked as a lab technologists for almost 40 years and always said that an M.D. degree was a license to kill. When the Canadian and Australian doctors went on strike several years ago the mortality rate dropped almos 50%. Doctors refuse to allow their own family members to be treated with traditional chemotherapy and radiation because they know it does more harm than good. So who is the hypocrite here? At least the reembursement is still good when the unknowing patient is subjected to this false hope. But now that the $1.2 trillion healthcare reform bill has passed even that cash cow may come to an abupt end especially if you are over 55 years of age.

Damn. I wish I had seen your comment before I penned the Idiotic Comment of the Week yesterday and set to post this morning.

Oh, and I also have a Ph.D. so I must be doubly deadly...

Remember that George Washinton was bled to death by his doctors...Semmelweiss had the entire medical profession of his country against him when he showed by not washing their hands after curring up corpses, then going on to deliver babies they were killing them.

Voltaire on the medical profession:

'Doctors are men who prescribe medicines of which they know little, to cure diseases of which they know less, in human beings of whom they know nothing.'

Nothing has changed!

Difference between those situations and the antivaxxers: handwashing was proven scientifically to lower infection, and bleeding was replaced by other things after it was shown scientifically to not work.

Also, is Voltaire qualified to comment on medicine? No. Voltaire was a philosopher. This is similar to asking a lawyer to comment on building a bridge.

By Katharine (not verified) on 08 Nov 2009 #permalink
Doctors refuse to allow their own family members to be treated with traditional chemotherapy and radiation because they know it does more harm than good.

Do you actually know any doctors?

I do. I have known doctors who saw their spouses and children suffer cancer. I have known doctors who lost spouses and parents to cancer. I knew two doctors who died of cancer. Every last one of those doctors got themselves and their loved ones the best medicine available (surgery when possible, and chemotherapy and radiation) in order to save them or at least extend and improve their lives.

The commenter who started this is simply parroting a myth that is common in alt-med circles that doctors refuse chemotherapy. I normally don't use such language, but he's laying down enough bullshit to fertilize the cornfields of Kansas with that statement. In fact, I bet I even know the "study"/survey he will cite if he tries to "prove I'm wrong." I'll wait, though, because it will be a lot of fun if he does try to cite that survey, given that I've dealt with it before on this blog.

The fact is, the vast majority doctors will take whatever therapy is the standard of care for cancer if they develop it. Being human, they are just as prone to cancer as anyone else; so it's not surprising that a large number of them do develop cancer of one form or another. I've personally treated physicians for breast cancer using that evil allopathic surgery, and they then went on to take that even more evil allopathic chemotherapy and radiation.

Confidentiality belongs to the patient, not the doctors. If she wanted
her medical records opened to the public, she had only to instruct that
they be opened. In fact, in this case, confidentiality means that no
one can dispute her claims about what her doctors told her.

Indeed. It's the same reason that Suzanne Somers can spout off about being misdiagnosed with "full body cancer" and castigate the doctors at whatever hospital she was treated at, secure in the knowledge that, thanks to HIPAA privacy laws, neither the hospital nor the doctors can say a single word about it or even admit that she was their patient without her express written consent. (Gee, I wonder why she doesn't give them her consent?)

Whoops. Put the end-italic tag after the 'nothing has changed!'

By Katharine (not verified) on 08 Nov 2009 #permalink

I don't know about Hopkins - if they diagnosed dystonia then its in Desiree's interests to release this record to prove it. If she now choses to claim "confidentiality", it looks very much like she has something to hide, like maybe the doctors even at Hopkins did not diagnose vaccine induced problems?

Indeed. This is one reason why I actually don't think that Desiree is likely to submit a claim to the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, because if she does her medical records then have to be turned over to the government. Instead, goaded on by Generation Rescue, she'll probably let herself be used as a symbol of how "dangerous" vaccines are.

Orac, it might be time to employ some behavior-based spam filtering.

What I mean is that Brian has been directly challenged, several times, to come up with even one doctor at Johns Hopkins who diagnosed Desiree with dystonia. Brian himself insists that the names are easy to find but nevertheless he refuses to provide them. Instead, he keeps repeating his completely unproven claim that Desiree Jennings' "dystonia" must be real because "doctors at Johns Hopkins said so".

I think it would be perfectly reasonable at this point to delete any posts of his which repeat the "Johns Hopkins said so" claim without providing the supporting evidence he himself said was easy to obtain. No one can claim he's been denied an opportunity to air his views; at this point he's simply repeating himself.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 08 Nov 2009 #permalink

Actually, given the length of this thread, nearly all of which is driven by brian and DF, I'm half tempted to turn comment moderation on for a couple of days, just to slow down the flood. DF and brian, as so many clueless anti-vax trolls have done before, are taking advantage of my generosity and the fact that I almost never moderate, delete, or otherwise censor comments, no matter how idiotic or even how vile, and I almost never ban commenters. Just to give an example or two, the only exceptions I've ever made have been a man who made fun of me for being sad that my dog died last year and dismissed her as "only a dog" and a woman who made fun of me for being sad that my mother-in-law died of breast cancer back in February. In other words, it takes a pretty huge provocation for me to ban someone. Then of course, there was Happeh, whom brian is increasingly reminding me of.

I also have to wonder this. People ask me where the hell I get time to write so much. The answer is simple. I don't sleep. Well, not really. But I have to wonder: Does brian do anything else other than keep hitting the "refresh" button on his web browser, ready to pounce and respond to any comment here? I mean, really. I've lost track of the comments for the first time in many months; the reason is that my comment level is approaching PZ's with hundreds of comments per post on some posts. I can't deal with it anymore and keep producing new content, which is why until this morning for the most part I've been at most skimming the comments.

I also wonder: People tell me to "get a life" sometimes, but who has less of a life, someone who creates interesting content for a blog on a regular basis, or someone who sits there waiting to comment on someone else's blog, flooding its comments with more verbiage than even I, the blogger, lay down in my posts?

I don't know. Given that recovery video, the cynic in me is thinking hoax, and I can only hope it wasn't in cahoots with GR/AoA.

Even psychogenic is starting to sound like a stretch.

Damn. I wish I had seen your comment before I penned the Idiotic Comment of the Week yesterday and set to post this morning.

Have no fear, Orac. I've been copying some of the troll's postings, and will be showing them to my class this week. We have critical thinking exercises where they examine short articles or statements, and then identify the errors. I've been working them hard lately so they'll enjoy the easy-pickings from the troll quotes. Plus they'll get a good laugh out of it.

The only problem is that they might not believe these quotes are real, and they might suspect I'm just making these quotes up.

By Daniel J. Andrews (not verified) on 08 Nov 2009 #permalink

Daniel, what a perfect opportunity to introduce your class to Poe's Law, and variations thereof :)

Orac, I admire your dedication, and if it's a choice between having regular insolent posts from you vs. having a variety of well-fed trolls to point and laugh at, I'll gladly accept moderation to ensure continuation of the former. Do what you have to do.

By Jennifer B. Phillips (not verified) on 08 Nov 2009 #permalink

I sincerely hope you don't become too succesful, Orac. One of the reasons I keep up with your blog is that it's about the right size to keep up with new posts if there's a topic one is interested in.

You're all missing the point.

Obviously the swine flu vaccine caused Jennings' dystonia. If you doubt this is possible, how is it there are PYGMIES + DWARFS??

By RubberNecker (not verified) on 08 Nov 2009 #permalink

The disputes on this blog have a way to go before they catch up with the "cyberwar" detailed in this New York Times article.

I can't imagine what energies are expended in maintaining 50 sock puppet identities.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 08 Nov 2009 #permalink

Daniel, what a perfect opportunity to introduce your class to Poe's Law, and variations thereof :)

Of course! I should have thought of that. Thank you, Jennifer!

By Daniel J. Andrews (not verified) on 08 Nov 2009 #permalink

Orac,
Nevermind "Idiot Comment of the Week", you clearly need to create an "Idiot Commenter of the Year" award for the brians. I say "brians" because I'm fairly certain that there are several different people posting on the same spittle-flecked keyboard over at AOA, or perhaps Dr. Buttar's basement.

One of the posters is just a frothing loon who can't spell or punctuate. One of them is just as loony as the first, but less frothy and has some command of English which includes the use of capital letters and diacritical marks (in the correct places). I haven't identified a distinct third brian, but the sheer volume of spume is just too much for one person to generate.

That said, perhaps Occam's Razor should be applied, in which case brian is probably just a lone poster in his parent's basement, jacked up on Red Bull and Jolt with his tinfoil hat screwed on just a bit too tight. This scenario might explain the multiple personality effect.

Whatever the source of these posts, their vast numbers, utterly credulous nature, slightly off-target snark and conspiratorial ardor places them among the pantheon of posters worthy of the soon-to-be coveted "ICOY".

WOW! Dr. Buttars apparent quackery seems to be on the same level as Scientology. I wonder how many of his protocols are based on the Purification Rundown. I did find one thing on his site interesting though....I had NO idea I was rusting on the inside :)

As a side note, never underestimate the power of moderation. I have starved a good number of trolls that way.

By Captain Obvious (not verified) on 08 Nov 2009 #permalink

Brian,

infinite idiocy,

negative information,

no entertainment,

waste of bandwidth

killfile

By ursa major (not verified) on 08 Nov 2009 #permalink

Katharine wrote: "Also, is Voltaire qualified to comment on medicine? No. Voltaire was a philosopher. This is similar to asking a lawyer to comment on building a bridge"

Well, no.

I think he's qualified to comment on the medicine of his day. After all, at the time there wasn't as much of a difference between the training of a doctor and the training of a philosopher. Besides, he was there, and presumably had some experience of doctors among his contemporaries.

Also, by your logic, as a trained printer, Ben Franklin should have kept himself to printing, and not bothered with politics, diplomacy, science, or inventions.

Hi Desiree,I have turned 11 years old.It was kind of weird how you got "dynostia" after taking the vaccine.In regards of that, the vaccine isn't saying what it should be doing.Honestly, there is no way I am going to take that.You get a higher risk of side-affects then getting the swine flu.I hope you get better.People are saying on Nov,5,09 you got cured by Dr.Radish Buttar something like that and I hope it realy did happen!Bye

Hi Desiree,I am totally not a 37-year-old pwetending to be a adowable widdle youth for pwopaganda puuwposees.It was kind of weird how you were so sure that you got "dipsomonotonia" from the flu vaccine.It was even weirder how none of your doctors would take the opportunity to come on TV and talk about your idea that you got it from the flu vaccine, I guess doctors are really really shy.Anyways the flu vaccine IS REALLY SCARY IT WILL KILL YOU IT IS OUT TO GET YOU OH MY GOD LOOK OUT BEHIND YOU!!!!! whereas the actual H1N1 virus is totally harmless and makes a good pet and I hope that everyone will remember that that's my professional opinion as an 11-year-old who can't find the space bar after a period.People are saying that Dr. Rashy Butterball cured you and I hope it really did happen and you didn't have to get injected with too much pee to make it happen!

By Totally Not A … (not verified) on 08 Nov 2009 #permalink

hey, Orac, $22 says that "brian", the first of the pro-Buttar posters, is Buttar himself. You might want to log the IP address.

The thimerosal gets diluted as the vaccine goes through the steps in processing.

OMG! OMG! It's getting upped in potency due to homeopathic succussation!!!!!

As wacky and aggressive as brian is, at least he's upfront and honest about his stance that vaccines are evil and dangerous. He (or they) isn't the least bit ambivalent.

wow, you sound so threatened that the woman a) actually had dystonia caused by a vaccination (and stated as such by two independent doctors) and b) was helped by someone trying new (perhaps un pharma-controlled) treatments. I hope you lose sleep over it cause it's gonna get worse. People are sick of all this over-vaccination bullshit.

wow, you guys sound so threatend that this could be for real. Hope you get a good night's sleep.

jen:

wow, you sound so threatened that the woman a) actually had dystonia caused by a vaccination (and stated as such by two independent doctors)

Please tell whose those "independent doctors" are, and give the link to their statements. Because all we are getting is hearsay.

The reality from the videos and so-called "miracle cure" is that is was "all in her head."

Grammar fail again! (I blame spending the weekend in a hotel home with two teenage girls as the "responsible mother" during a manga/anime con!)

Jen, tell us exactly the names names of those doctors! That is the information that seems to be missing from the public record.

Trust me... I will get a good night of sleep. Do you know how much noise a hairdryer makes at 2am... and then how much noise a cell phone alarm makes at 6:30am? Have you ever spent two nights in a hotel with two teenage girls? Do you know how much they talk at night? Of course I will sleep well tonight!

People are sick of all this over-vaccination bullshit.

Translation: *You* are sick of this "over-vaccination bullshit". The reality is a lot more people are irritated about the shortage of the H1N1 vaccine.

By Joseph C. (not verified) on 08 Nov 2009 #permalink

wow, you guys sound so threatend that this could be for real

No, jen. I find Desiree's 'miracle cure" more of an insult to my intelligence than anything else.

Say hi to brian for me.

Preview blockquote fail... Basically do not click on "J. Jones" link to the livefeed. It is not pretty, and it is very stupid.

More information:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=last%20measure

If I had my way, Orac would ban anyone using such a stupid tactic (I had over a hundred Firefox pages show up on my desktop... I went into the Windows Task Manager and deleted all of them).

Only a truly stupid troll would argue like that.

Did I mention, only a very stupid idiotic troll would use a multiple window opening tactic like that? Even if you agree with him, the fact he used Java Script to take over the windows on your computer denotes a seriously delusional individual.

Please, Orac, in all of your Plexiglas goodness... prohibit the person who posted that troll spam from ever visiting this site again!

Concerning the OP: urine injections??

Really? Seriously? Piss, right into your veins? And we aren't talking about Keith Richards? Please tell me he didn't do this to autistic children to like, balance their blood pH or something.

(I could google it myself, but somehow the world seemed like a better place before I read that. I don't think I really want to know that badly.)

a-non: 'No, jen. I find Desiree's 'miracle cure" more of an insult to my intelligence than anything else.'

Your 'intelligence' is maybe to entranced by the power of authority.

orthodox medicine is afraid of Dr Buttar, as his detox is exposing the dangeorus drugs used by the doctors, a well as curing their 'mistakes'.

Also: 'miracle' has been a word almost patented by orthodoxy:
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&rlz=1R2TSHN_enAU339&q=miracle+sur…

what better way to persuade the masses!

yes jen...those attacking Dr Buttar DO feel threatened...He exposes the poisonous nature of modern medicine, when he detoxes orthodoxys victims.

Voltaire reminds us:'Doctors are men who prescribe medicines of which they know little, to cure diseases of which they know less, in human beings of whom they know nothing'

The shrill reaction to Dr Buttar is the same reaction Semmelweiss, max Gerson and others experienced.

katherine: 'Also, is Voltaire qualified to comment on medicine? No. Voltaire was a philosopher. This is similar to asking a lawyer to comment on building a bridge.'

Voltaire was making a comment on doctors...and yes he is qualified...doctors have been criticised for centuries for their arrigance and dangerous methods...they still pour dangerous medicines into patients, and know little of the workings of nature.
Ever hear of iatrogenesis?
Also, is Voltaire qualified to comment on medicine? No. Voltaire was a philosopher. This is similar to asking a lawyer to comment on building a bridge.

'What I mean is that Brian has been directly challenged, several times, to come up with even one doctor at Johns Hopkins who diagnosed Desiree with dystonia'

what an irrelevancy...youre determined to distract attention from two things: that vaccines with toxic mercury poisoned a young woman, and that she was cured by detoxification...Her going public both angered the doctors(and u), proving they and u are concerned not for her health but her exposing a dangerous racket.

But if you can prove she was not diagnosed at JH, go ahead..

If any user needs to be banned, it is the one who posted this

Agreed and done. It did the same thing to my computer, and I use a Mac. Sending malware comment spam is worthy of an automatic ban. In fact, I'm going to report this comment to the Seed techies.

'330
WOW! Dr. Buttars apparent quackery seems to be on the same level as Scientology. I wonder how many of his protocols are based on the Purification Rundown. I did find one thing on his site interesting though....I had NO idea I was rusting on the inside :)'

Both object to treating the sick with poisons....Western medicine has a long history of poisoning patients...from the days of Calomel (also a mercury compound) to Thimersol.

brian, did you notice that one of your comments inaugurated the Idiotic Comment of the Week?

By Katharine (not verified) on 09 Nov 2009 #permalink

I'd be interested to make a list of all the evil toxins that are injected DIRECTLY INTO THE BLOOD with Buttered Radish's urine therapy.
OMG - it would also contain squalene!
You are all so gonna die.

And how do you know that she "angered the doctors" if you don't even know who they are? Kind of a big assumption and likely to be wrong.

By Joseph C. (not verified) on 09 Nov 2009 #permalink

Brian et al.:

1: Given that you and those of your ilk are challenging the accepted (and, interestingly, statistically supported) common wisdom concerning vaccines, treatments, and indeed the medical profession as a whole, by strict definition the burden of proof is upon YOU, and not the rest of us. Support your positions with direct, verifiable statistical evidence, or GTFO.

2: If anyone's reaction is shrill, it is the reaction of the alarmists who have, I would conjecture, their own psychological desire to be the next Galileo, the next Einstein, or what have you; or at the very least be associated with them. The position of: 'Right, but beset on all sides by false common wisdom!' is indeed a dramatic one. We see the 'alone, but right' role in movies all the time. We still hear about historical characters of that sort to this day; wouldn't it be great to be like them?

WHEN and IF you are collectively able to muster verifiable evidence to support your position, I and evidence-based thinkers like me will follow. Until then, please, be silent.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/05/books/05book.html

I realise that there are more important issues here, but I just have to scream at Brian:

It is JohnS Hopkins, not John Hopkins, for pete's sake.

I haven't read through all the comments. I noticed a lot of people explaining that VAERS is not a reliable source of information as-is, yet brian still idolizes it as a reliable source of causal information. brian, to quote from the VAERS web site, emphasis added:

Although VAERS can rarely provide definitive evidence of causal associations between vaccines and particular risks, its unique role as a national spontaneous reporting system enables the early detection of signals that can then be more rigorously investigated. VAERS receives reports of many events that occur after immunization. Some of these events may occur coincidentally following vaccination, while others may truly be caused by vaccination. Studies help determine if there is more than a temporal (time) association between immunization and adverse events. The fact that an adverse event occurred following immunization is not conclusive evidence that the event was caused by a vaccine. Factors such as medical history, diagnostic tests, and other medication given near the time of vaccination must be examined to help to determine the cause of adverse events.

So there you have it, brian. From the VAERS web site itself, a declaration that the reports found in the database do not, by themselves, establish a causal relationship between a vaccine and an injury, the the injury may very well be coincidental. Only after officials at the CDC have investigated the case can it be determined whether or not an injury was truly caused by the vaccine.

My advice, brian? Stop holding up VAERS reports as definitive proof that a vaccine caused a specific injury.

Wow, Brian is still going. Impressive. He's pro-disease, pro-scientology, believes in homeopathy and "alternative" treatments. Whats next? I'm guessing 9/11 conspiracy or moon landing hoax.

By Richard Eis (not verified) on 09 Nov 2009 #permalink

brian: like the little Energizer Bunny of Fail!

By Luna_the_cat (not verified) on 09 Nov 2009 #permalink

"If any user needs to be banned, it is the one who posted this"

could someone please tell me which post this refers to? I scanned through and couldnt find it. I dont want to open any links until I know what was being referred to. thank you much!

Well, I hate to hear that a young woman had a terrible reaction to a vaccine. Sure, its a risk. Whether this is truly induced by the vaccine or not, there is a risk, but, would everyone rather go back to the days before vaccines and watch their family members die of the flu or any of the myriad of diseases that could cause death. Show me some other treatment that has saved near as many lives! Then I will listen.

It was the link to a domain something.nimp.org, which I think has been deleted now.

As a general rule, NEVER click on ANY link that goes to nimp.org EVER.

By Luna_the_cat (not verified) on 09 Nov 2009 #permalink

Marishka:
See comments 344 - 346. The original has been deleted, it appears.

By T. Bruce McNeely (not verified) on 09 Nov 2009 #permalink

as a guy whos medical knowledge ends at my ability to perform emergency first-aid enough to get an injured crewman back to shore, I wanted to say I'm glad I can feel a bit less guilty about my love for the Jennings' "Walk It Out" video

By Capt Cabby (not verified) on 09 Nov 2009 #permalink

366 367 thank you for referencing the posts and the advice for the future

Today I had an amalgam filling removed in preparation for installation of an inlay. Then, I went over to the hospital where I work for my H1N1 flu shot.

If you take that level of thimerosal/mercury exposure, add in the seasonal flu shot I got several weeks ago, plus the couple of tunafish subs I've eaten recently...ooooohhh...no wonder I started to feel woozy even before I sat down in the dentist's chair.

Wonder if Dr. Buttar takes walk-ins for mercury detox.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 09 Nov 2009 #permalink

you guys should just hear yourselves. You sound like you're trying to convince each other of your "scientific rightness" when it's obvious that vaccines have had way too much of a pass when it comes to basic safety. I mean why did it take people like Hewitson et al to study primates and neonatal reflexes with and without hep b vacc?? Your intellectual masturbation is great and all except that it allows the harm to children/people to continue. Nice, really nice. Hope you're proud.

Yes, jennifer. No one has the right to claim "scientific rightness" for themselves.

Oh, except you it seems.

Nice try, but you fumbled the catch.

Now, add to the discussion if you can.

"Vaccines have had way too much of a pass when it comes to basic safety"

?? Seriously? Do any of you anti-vaxxers even understand basic mathematics and statistics? Yeah, someone could get sick from the vaccine, but the chances of that happening are SO low in comparison to what would happen if you did catch the flu. It's SIGNIFICANTLY more dangerous to get into your car and go driving than it is to get a flu shot. Think about that before you start whining about modern medicine - start telling your friends to stop driving their cars, first.

jennifer, do you mind telling us what the relative risk of the MMR vaccine is compared to actually getting measles, mumps and rubella? Please be sure to provided adequate documentation to support your answer.

I mean why did it take people like Hewitson et al to study primates and neonatal reflexes with and without hep b vacc??

Yes, why indeed? Perhaps it was Hewitson et al's raging conflict of interest, and/or biased determination to provide some data, no matter how crappy, to undergird the "vaccines cause autism!11!!one!" movement.

jennifer, after you've answered Chris's question, perhaps you could expound on your declaration that vaccines have had 'a pass' vis a vis their 'basic safety'. And be sure to tell us what changes to this process you would require before you would consider them 'safe'.

Thanks in advance,

another Jennifer.

By Jennifer B. Phillips (not verified) on 09 Nov 2009 #permalink

To recap the drama thus far:

1. DAN! doctor Rashid Buttar makes anti-flu vax YouTube. He includes a Fox News clip of an altie colleague denouncing the vaccine.
2. Few days later, Desiree Jennings, a Redskins cheerleader, gets seasonal flu vax at a supermarket.
3. Few days later, she fakes "dystonia" and is seen by unnamed doctors at two hospitals.
4. Fox News runs a scary story about Ms. Jennings' "tragic" injury.
5. Generation Rescue sets up a web site for Ms. Jennings.
6. Novella, Orac write blog posts. Trolls appear.
7. Dr. Rashid Buttar offers help to Ms. Jennings. She consents to chelation and is cured!
8. Trolls keep the skeptics busy at Orac's place.

Meanwhile...

1. Supplement pushers (naturopaths, chiropractors, Scientologists, etc.) are well pleased.
2. Dan Snyder, owner of the Washington Redskins and a high ranking Scientologist, is well pleased.
3. Tom Cruise, who co-produced his last two movies with Mr. Snyder, is well pleased.
4. Mr. Cruise's close friends Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey --all in the UK at the moment-- are well pleased.
5. Mr. David Miscavige, in the UK for a large gathering of Scientologists, boasts about the damage done to BigPharma.
6. Redskins cheerleader Desiree Jennings will soon meet with her boss, Mr. Snyder, to ask: "Can haz moovie job nao?"
7. Sadly bad acting in chelation YouTube will sabotage her film career before it begins.

Jessica, "the chances of getting sick from the vacc are SO low"... compared to what could happen if I caught the flu." Well my grandmother did have Guillaume Barre after a flu shot in /76 or /78 and was paralyzed in the hospital for a few months. I know someone who has had severe pain in her arm for the last year and numbness. Finally, an internist told her, "Rhonda, if I make a report on this as a vaccine injury it won't fly. But don't ever get a flu shot again."
Yes, vaccines have been given a pass in terms of safety. Safety is assumed. Like, lets give Gardasil and compare to a placebo that has the aluminum in it and check for much of a difference over a 2 week period. Great plan! Diane Harper doesn.t think too highly of it.
Chris, the MMR, yes, I daresay may have caused more harm than good. Do I have statistics to back this up? Well, gee, that would be really tricky since, not many (although increasingly more) docs don't want to believe this could be the case. I know you will reject "anecdotal evidence" but there are only about tens of thousands of parents who have noticed a problem since the live virus vaccine. God, I actually had those illnesses when I was a kid and I have survived. Some of you may be offended by this concept but I actually believe that although the odd child might die of the measles, many more are suffering an encephalopathy after vaccination rendering them autistic. That kind of collateral damage is not good. You see, you say,"so what if thousands of kids get autistic in the process of vaccination. (Some even die-hep b to babies-laughable!!)I might say the corollary of that. "So Some kids will die from disease and that's the way it is.
Jennifer- I don't give a shit if Hewitson had raging conflicts of interest. For f's sake it's not like the pharma sponsored studies don't have conflicts of interest. Cochrane Reviews are helpful in seeing this.
Changes I would make to the process of vaccine "safety" would include: more animal studies such as Hewitsons,' a comparison of vacced unvacced children for health outcomes (even if it can't be double blind), longer follow-up of vaccine test subjects (more than 2 weeks), removal of unsafe ingredients as determined by multiple tests using animals, CDC should not be both responsible for recommendation of schedule and surveillance (conflict of interest). Shit, my daughter can't even do driver's ed and driver testing at the AMA because, as the lady on the phone said, "that would be seen as a conflict of interest."
There are many things I would like to see that I'm sure I am leaving out. I wish dollars, other than pharmaceutical, funded medical journals. Anyways, I am sure you will get a good laugh out of my response. I have to go to bed now. I work with 6 autistic boys every day lately. It's hard work. I do thank you for letting me post.
Parting thought: Where does all this vaccinating end? Should we start vaccinating in the womb?

Jessica, "the chances of getting sick from the vacc are SO low"... compared to what could happen if I caught the flu." Well my grandmother did have Guillaume Barre after a flu shot in /76 or /78 and was paralyzed in the hospital for a few months. I know someone who has had severe pain in her arm for the last year and numbness. Finally, an internist told her, "Rhonda, if I make a report on this as a vaccine injury it won't fly. But don't ever get a flu shot again."
Yes, vaccines have been given a pass in terms of safety. Safety is assumed. Like, lets give Gardasil and compare to a placebo that has the aluminum in it and check for much of a difference over a 2 week period. Great plan! Diane Harper doesn.t think too highly of it.
Chris, the MMR, yes, I daresay may have caused more harm than good. Do I have statistics to back this up? Well, gee, that would be really tricky since, not many (although increasingly more) docs don't want to believe this could be the case. I know you will reject "anecdotal evidence" but there are only about tens of thousands of parents who have noticed a problem since the live virus vaccine. God, I actually had those illnesses when I was a kid and I have survived. Some of you may be offended by this concept but I actually believe that although the odd child might die of the measles, many more are suffering an encephalopathy after vaccination rendering them autistic. That kind of collateral damage is not good. You see, you say,"so what if thousands of kids get autistic in the process of vaccination. (Some even die-hep b to babies-laughable!!)I might say the corollary of that. "So Some kids will die from disease and that's the way it is.
Jennifer- I don't give a shit if Hewitson had raging conflicts of interest. For f's sake it's not like the pharma sponsored studies don't have conflicts of interest. Cochrane Reviews are helpful in seeing this.
Changes I would make to the process of vaccine "safety" would include: more animal studies such as Hewitsons,' a comparison of vacced unvacced children for health outcomes (even if it can't be double blind), longer follow-up of vaccine test subjects (more than 2 weeks), removal of unsafe ingredients as determined by multiple tests using animals, CDC should not be both responsible for recommendation of schedule and surveillance (conflict of interest). Shit, my daughter can't even do driver's ed and driver testing at the AMA because, as the lady on the phone said, "that would be seen as a conflict of interest."
There are many things I would like to see that I'm sure I am leaving out. I wish dollars, other than pharmaceutical, funded medical journals. Anyways, I am sure you will get a good laugh out of my response. I have to go to bed now. I work with 6 autistic boys every day lately. It's hard work. I do thank you for letting me post.
Parting thought: Where does all this vaccinating end? Should we start vaccinating in the womb?

'haven't read through all the comments. I noticed a lot of people explaining that VAERS is not a reliable source of information as-is, yet brian still idolizes it as a reliable source of causal information. brian, to quote from the VAERS web '

I dont, but typically you are making attributions.
=================================
meanwhile, here is titmouse:'3. Few days later, she fakes "dystonia" and is seen by unnamed doctors at two hospitals.'

No, the dystonia diagnosis was made at places like John Hopkins, not by Desiree, and your laughing at her condition is sign youre a lowlife.

'7. Dr. Rashid Buttar offers help to Ms. Jennings. She consents to chelation and is cured!'

Thus proving Dr Buttars diagnosis...of poisoning due to the flu vaccine...simple cause and effect, bozo.

'1. Supplement pushers '

This sneer explains a lot! Titmouse prefers his/her daily thimerosal to Vitaminm C!

Really, That sneer should be the subtitle to this blog.

richard els: 'Wow, Brian is still going. Impressive. He's pro-disease, pro-scientology, believes in homeopathy and "alternative" treatments. Whats next? I'm guessing 9/11 conspiracy or moon landing hoax.'

Probably not worh my while responding to the developmentally challenged..
pro-disease? No
pro-scientology? Isnt US the land of the free?
believes homeopathy...Have used homeopathy, belief i leave to you and your faith in vaccines...

alternatives kill and maim far fewer people, while curing more.

9/11 Conspiracy? Which one? The official one? NO , the 9-11 truth ones... yes

yOURE a true believer Rich..maybe about of dystonia will shake you out of your medically induced delusions.

pare: 'I'm fairly certain that there are several different people posting on the same spittle-flecked keyboard over at AOA, or perhaps Dr. Buttar's basement. '

Just as you are 'failry certain' vaccine are safe, and dont cause injury...

orac: 'Uh-oh. Who is this doctor? Take a guess. No, it's not a competent doctor. Indeed, it's a doctor who has gotten in a lot of trouble with his medical board. He's known for urine injection therapy, among other things, and has charged tens of thousands of dollars to apply his quackery to cancer patients'

Ever hear of Premarin?
His 'quackery' has aided Desiree in her recovery...something the doctors at JH couldnt do...nor could you. It must be envy.
Ive not idea what he charges,but medical bankruptcy, by maijn stream medicine is very common.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/health-care-reform/2009/06/new_study_s…

Semmelweiss got into a lot of trouble with his 'medical board'...but who was right?

'Of course he did. That's what he diagnoses everyone with, pretty much, other than his cancer patients.'

thats what they have...the proof lies in the cure...

'And, making the rounds on various quack discussion forums is this breathless e-mail:'

Thats a bit arrogant, or as to phrase you : disrespectful insolence
Orac..his diagnosis led to treatment that led to her recovery.
Interesting, that Desiree only got her 'psychogenic;' dystonia AFTER she got the vaccine and never before in her 25 years...John Hopkins doctors cant cure her...So thanks to FOX and GR, shde goes to Dr Buttar, whose treatment, puts an end to her 'dystonia'..another highly implausible event if it was 'psychogenic'....she never met him before,so no collusion....

'I further predicted that, if Jennings' symptoms resolved spontaneously, which they appear to be doing, both she and GR would credit her fortune to whatever quackery she was being subjected to'

dont take up fortune telling... her symptomns did not resolve 'spontaneously', or theyd have done so at JH, with its reputation, must be a hot bed of spontaneous healings.
Cause and effect...im surprised youve not said she was paid by Buttar to enhance his reputation!

as for the great Novella...he admits he's clueless.

finally:
'Indeed. The story being spread by Dr. Buttar about her dramatic improvement is excellent evidence that Desiree Jennings' dystonia was almost certainly psychogenic all along. Her recovery was too miraculously fast to be plausible especially if she appeared as sick as is being reported, even if the snake oil Dr. Buttar administered had a real physiological effect on her nervous system.

Like Steve, I'm glad that Desiree Jennings is apparently recovering, whatever the reason. Hopefully she can get back to her normal life. But I roundly condemn Generation Rescue and Dr. Buttar for their cynical exploitation of this vulnerable young woman.'

Whagts wrong with all of this: Orac uses the word 'mirculously'???!!! Really?
You did not examine Desiree, and its UNethical to make any kind of diagnosis on that basis.

Nice you are glad shes recovering, yet you condemn those who made this possible... This sort of disconnect make me wonder what happens to your own patients. Under your care, Desiree would still be 'dystonic'.or worse.

Regarding snake oil:

'Snake oil is a traditional Chinese medicine made from Chinese water snake (Enhydris chinensis), which is used to treat joint pain'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil

in other words, dont moxk what you dont understand.

Huh?? sorry for the OT dumb question, but are Scientologists anti-vax too??

By Dan the Man (not verified) on 09 Nov 2009 #permalink

-Brian - Probably not worth my while responding to the developmentally challenged..-

Not so developmentally challenged that i couldn't guess you would probably be a "9/11 truther" and or "moon landing hoaxer".

-Dan-Huh?? sorry for the OT dumb question, but are Scientologists anti-vax too??-

Yes, but in a general way. Its because of the anti-psychiatry, anti-medicine theme that runs through it. There are also individuals involved more directly because they have a similar agenda.

By Richard Eis (not verified) on 10 Nov 2009 #permalink

-Semmelweiss got into a lot of trouble with his 'medical board'...but who was right?-

Brian, what you need to realise about your hero Semmelweiss is that he was doing proper medicine and science. Homeopathy came before this. Chinese medicine came before this, prayer came before this. The four humours and herbology came before this. THEY were "the establishment".

In other words Semmelweiss doesn't represent YOUR anti-science quackery which was already around. He represents that new upstart "science" which went AGAINST the unthinking quackery of the day.

By Richard Eis (not verified) on 10 Nov 2009 #permalink

(and to prevent you idiotic screed on the matter) I am well aware that "chinese" medicine was not available to europeans at that time. However:
1) The chinese have used it for thousands of years (as the quacks are so happy to tell us). Western medicine came to china and revolutionised it (for those that can get it) the same way medicine was revolutionised here.
2) The idea of lifeforce (chi, energy etc...) has many different names and has been invented all over the world, still the same woo.

By Richard Eis (not verified) on 10 Nov 2009 #permalink

Scientologists have a medical philosophy that sounds very much like naturopathy. Lots of concern about "toxins."

I don't think they have an explicit teaching against vaccines. They simply have business interests that benefit from promoting alternative medicine and bashing "bigPharma." The anti-vax sympathies are incidental.

jennifer:

Chris, the MMR, yes, I daresay may have caused more harm than good. Do I have statistics to back this up? Well, gee, that would be really tricky since, not many (although increasingly more) docs don't want to believe this could be the case. I know you will reject "anecdotal evidence" but there are only about tens of thousands of parents who have noticed a problem since the live virus vaccine.

I see, it is bad because you say so. Sorry, troll, but argument by assertion does not work.

(now this "jennifer" looks like a "brian" sock puppet..., and no, I will not be feeding these trolls any longer)

brian is a troll.

And in other breaking news, water is wet and fire is hot? ;-)

By Luna_the_cat (not verified) on 10 Nov 2009 #permalink

Brian is a brilliant example of foot in mouth disease. Anyone with a lick of sense is going to see his "arguments" and side with us if only to avoid such lunacy.

It reminds me about how westboro baptist church has done wonders for gay rights by being so hated that everyone dare not look like they agree with them.

By Richard Eis (not verified) on 10 Nov 2009 #permalink

Hey David Scheidler,

You can keep your vaccines. I'll take my chance with natural cures, such as Vitamin D, which prevents the flu and almost 70% of all cancers. Funny how I've never taken a flu shot and have yet to catch the flu.

By Andy in Chicago (not verified) on 10 Nov 2009 #permalink

@Andy in Chicago

Actually, vitamin D does not prevent the flu. Nor does it boost your immune system if you are already getting adequate amounts of vitamin D. I'm also somewhat skeptical of it preventing cancer. Please feel free to point me to some studies that show otherwise.

As to why you've never gotten the flu, that could be for several reasons:

1) People around you are getting vaccinated, and so are not catching the flu to pass along to you.
2) People who are getting the flu are staying at home, thus not spreading it to you.
3) People may be getting flu strains similar to others you were exposed to sometime in the past. Because of previous exposure, you would either be immune or have a much milder case, possibly mistaking it for a cold.
4) You've been lucky.

There may be other possible explanations. I myself got my first flu shot this year, even though I haven't had the flu in at least 15 years or more. I do not take additional vitamin D supplements or do anything out of the ordinary, really. The reason I got the shot was because I have a friend who is on immunosuppressants because of an organ transplant and another friend who is pregnant. Getting infected and interacting with them while I'm asymptomatic but still contagious would be a very bad thing. Then there are the people I come in contact with every day to and from work, when I go to the store, etc.

Never had a flu shot, never get the flu. People around me do, I never do. Brian your not going to change there minds, but you might convince someone too look around if they stumble on to this blog.

For almost a hundred years the medical industry has been suppressing new technologies and ideas of treating disease. This may sound silly, how can the healers want anything but the best. Truth is most doctors don't have time to research and the ones that do ALWAYS follow up on SOMEONE ELSE's research. No thinking outside of the box for doctors.

Healthcare is great money maker, why heal when you can treat forever.

http://educate-yourself.org/fc/index.shtml

MANY MORE sources of info out there, wake up and look for yourself.

And WHY DO the vaccine makers have blanket immunity from lawsuits. The 2006 Public Readiness and Emergency Preparedness Act

And a clearer look at most of the posts in this blog to date. Don't get me wrong, MANY of you actually feel like your doing the right thing, good for you, too bad for trying to sway out of ignorance. You are arguing A and B and completely ignoring C.

Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation

1. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil (AMA says its A OK)
2. Become incredulous and indignant
3. Create rumor mongers
4. Use a straw man
5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling, ridicule (9-11)
6. Hit and Run (ursa major 1 post, poogles 2, Larry Silva 2(cute little 11 yo), a perfect circle 2)
7. Question motives (He MUST be pro death)
8. Invoke authority
9. Play Dumb
10. Associate opponent charges with old news
11. Establish and rely upon fall-back positions (he's a troll)
12. Enigmas have no solution (since vacs are harmless, she faked it)
13. Alice in Wonderland Logic
14. Demand complete solutions
15. Fit the facts to alternate conclusions (she faked it FOR MONEY!)
16. Vanish evidence and witnesses
17. Change the subject (no truth here, just trolls/Scientology)
18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad (he has no life to post all the time)
19. Ignore facts, demand impossible proofs (Doctors, AMA, closed lips, LIABILITY, no problems here :)
20. False evidence
21. Call a Grand Jury, Special Prosecutor (doesn't really apply here of course)
22. Manufacture a new truth
23. Create bigger distractions
24. Silence critics
25. Vanish

Eight Traits of The Disinformationalist
1. Avoidance (she faked it)
2. Selectivity
3. Coincidental
4. Teamwork (whos turn to use the TROLL word again)
5. Anti-conspiratorial (9-11)
6. Artificial Emotions (their deaths are on your conscience!!)
7. Inconsistent (vacs are %100 safe, well %99, well)
8. Newly Discovered: Time Constant

Oh look, it is an evidence free conspiracy mongering Gish Gallop!

"Never had a flu shot, never get the flu. "

How odd. I routinely get flu shots and don't get the flu. Looks like this round of Battle of the Meaningless Anecdotes is a draw.

"For almost a hundred years the medical industry has been suppressing new technologies and ideas of treating disease. This may sound silly"

Yes. It sounds incredibly moronic to anyone who knows about the advances in health care and decline in mortality over the last century. Of course, you might not know this if you get all your information from educate-yourself.org, a festival of quackaloonality which sometimes makes whale.to look reasonable (well not really, but you get the idea). The site not only employs scot's 25 Rules of Disinformation but uses many more, most prominently the jamming of fingers in the ears accompanied by shouts of "NA NA NA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!".

Works a treat.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 10 Nov 2009 #permalink

"Truth is most doctors don't have time to research and the ones that do ALWAYS follow up on SOMEONE ELSE's research."

And aren't we (the patients) glad of it.

Just imagine if your doctor had only their own experience to rely on when working out dosages for meds, or if your surgeon had to work out the basics from scratch, imagine if your PT had to treat your injury based on nothing more than what they'd seen, imagine if your OT advised $1000's of superflous equipment based on only the handful of people with your needs they'd met.

Imagine the mess insurance would be in, if we had no way to evaluate the effectiveness of a treatment across conditional boundaries.

Imagine how hard it would be to prove negligence or professional incompetance if the only counter-indication was another Dr/nurse/ahp saying so.

What a mess that would be. Yet some people act as if that would be a good thing.

Thankfully such people rarely hold any position of responsibility over anothers wellbeing, often for very good reasons.

"Eight Traits of The Disinformationalist"...
"5. Anti-conspiratorial (9-11)"

Cue the Loose Change troofer troll! Notice there is a solid 9-11 troofer contingent to the antivax lemming pack. brian is in good company - or do these real men of genius share an IP address?

scot, you are absolutely right to question the "dogmas" of these skeptics. they do more to suppress knowlege than to promote it.

For instance, I developed a gasolene additive that allows you to get 250 miles per gallon. But I cant get any of these so-called "experts" to take me seriously.

Demanding "imposible proofs" is right! Who needs such proofs? I've got hudnreds of testimonials and everyone is satisfied except for a few who couldnt follow directions.

It's just $200 and I'll give you my secret. Ask Orac for my contact info and all details will be sent. Ignore the incredulus rumor-mongers and skeptics with their straw men. This is the real deal.

By Nostradamus Jr. (not verified) on 10 Nov 2009 #permalink

Hey andy, we have the perfect doctor for you, he hates all that nasty "evidence" and "science" too and just like you, he loves anecdotes,conspiracys and hates teh ebil vaccines. Step forward Dr Jay!!!!.

By flim flam (not verified) on 10 Nov 2009 #permalink

brian & scot - Forget Nostradamus Jr. and his 250 mile per gallon additive scam. For only $500, I will send you the plans for my 300 mile per gallon carburetor that Big Oil doesn't want you to know about.

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 10 Nov 2009 #permalink

4. Use a straw man

irony

Very informative -- and I agree with most of what you've written. I think Desiree has been duped and will be used by GR and the anti-vaccine nuts until she's no longer useful.

Truth and information seems to really draw out the nut jobs. Vitamin D "prevents" the flu? Really? Now there's a medical break-through! If only all the people that are sick with the flu (and the ones that have died from it) had known!!

Seems GR and the anti-vaccine movement will go to any lengths. Scary. Very very frightening.

She's got an awesome rack. I am glad she is feeling better.

All of your comments justify every point I made. Snake oil salesmen, 9-11 truther, ANYTHING BUT THE ISSUE. Woman gets shot, gets Really sick, traditional medicine no help. alternative medicine helps, getting better. YOU WOULD ARGUE THE WORLD IS FLAT;She is faking it... She HAS to be faking, she got a shot like all of the other girls and boys, she is s faker.

I WILL NOT WASTE MY TIME with this after showing the light of truth on the subject. Good luck the the lot of you.

This is my last post, GET A F-ing life PLEASE. AND PLEASE stop giving your doctor the same level of trust as your MUTAL FUND manager, it's all about money now.

I have a life, try to see your's and make a positive difference OUTSIDE of profit margins. Thats all this is, profit.

Bless you all

LET THE DEBATES START.....

'Hey andy, we have the perfect doctor for you, he hates all that nasty "evidence" and "science" too and just like you, he loves anecdotes,conspiracys and hates teh ebil vaccines. Step forward Dr Jay!!!!. '''

yes, the evil vaccines:

'http://www.kuenselonline.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=138…

Baby deaths led to suspension

home Pentavalent Vaccine 29 October, 2009 - 29 October, 2009 - A day after a two-month old baby received the first dose of the pentavalent vaccine, she stopped feeding well and cried more often. On the third day, she was brought to Thimphu referral hospital from central Bhutan.

âAfter admitting her, she became sicker. She had seizures, cried insistently and became pale,â said the father.

Four days later, on October 20, the baby died. âI never thought that it was due to the vaccine,â said the father. âIt was only after I reached Thimphu that the possibility of the vaccineâs side effect was made.â

Woman gets shot, gets Really sick

I can see how getting shot would have deleterious effects on one's health - my father still has a crater in his shoulder blade from when he got shot in Belgium in 1944.

Why are these WACKALOONS Compelled to Use RandoM CAPITALIZATION?

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 10 Nov 2009 #permalink

http://wonder.cdc.gov/DataUse.html#
# All of CDC WONDER's datasets are covered by the following policy:

These data are provided for the purpose of statistical reporting and analysis only. The CDC/ATSDR Policy on Releasing and Sharing Data prohibits linking these data with other data sets or information for the purpose of identifying an individual. If the identity of a individual described in a data set is discovered inadvertently, make no disclosure or other use of this information and report the discovery to:

Associate Director for Science
Office of Science Policy and Technology Transfer, CDC
Mail Stop D50
Phone: 404-639-7240

# Datasets obtained from the National Center for Health Statistics: Compressed Mortality, Linked Birth and Infant Death, and Natality, are also covered by the following policy:

The Public Health Service Act (42 U.S.C. 242m(d)) provides that the data collected by the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) may be used only for the purpose for which they were obtained; any effort to determine the identity of any reported cases, or to use the information for any purpose other than for statistical reporting and analysis, is against the law. Therefore users will:

* Use these data for statistical reporting and analysis only.
* Make no attempt to learn the identity of any person or establishment included in these data.
* Make no disclosure or other use of the identity of any person or establishment discovered inadvertently and advise the Director, NCHS of any such discovery.

Alvan O. Zarate, Ph.D.
Confidentiality Officer
National Center for Health Statistics
3311 Toledo Road, Rm 7116
Hyattsville, MD 20782
Tel 301-458-4601
Fax 301-458-4021

F.Y.I.:
Desiree Jennings is now a public figure who has made a lot of information about her condition public. This might make a difference.

By T. Bruce McNeely (not verified) on 10 Nov 2009 #permalink

-Never had a flu shot, never get the flu. People around me do, I never do.-

He doesn't get the flu, he just gets really bad colds sometimes that leave him fatigued and feverish. And taking a couple of days off to stay in bed doesn't mean its influenza.

isn't that right Scot?

By Richard Eis (not verified) on 10 Nov 2009 #permalink

He doesn't get the flu, he just gets really bad colds sometimes that leave him fatigued and feverish. And taking a couple of days off to stay in bed doesn't mean its influenza.

IF he takes the couple days off. After all, if it's not flu there's no danger of spreading flu to your co-workers, is there.

By speedwell (not verified) on 11 Nov 2009 #permalink

IF he takes the couple days off. After all, if it's not flu there's no danger of spreading flu to your co-workers, is there.

IF hes employed.

By Richard Eis (not verified) on 11 Nov 2009 #permalink

So, bob, you really think linking to the National Vaccine Mis-Information Center is considered real evidence?

How about you tell us the relative risks between influenza and the influenza vaccine? Please use real evidence, and not random websites.

Not sure how a site that is doing research for Vaccination is random and not relevant. They are also doing research on vaccines.

Link:
http://www.nvic.org/NVIC-Vaccine-News/October-2009-(1)/NVIC-Launches-Re…

This also held a conference: The 4th International Public Conference on Vaccination

http://www.nvic.org/Events/speakers.aspx

Seems like a crediable source of information to me. Unless you can prove othewise with your facts and evidence.

Also, you say "Mis-Information" without quoting a source of your proof of said statement.

That is considered a "random website" and not real evidence. Please show us the actual evidence (papers that can be found in a medical school library) showing the relative risk between influenza and the influenza vaccine.

My interpretation of NVIC being a misinformation site is my opinion, based on going there and noticing that they cherry pick studies, and do not update their pages when more relevant data is produced. This was at a time when they had a separate tab to hire a personal injury lawyer (also, on their board of directors is the lawyer who was sanctioned for trying to shut down a blogger). They have since revamped their website so the lawyer connection is no longer so prominent.

I am not alone with my opinion that NVIC and Barbara Loe Fisher provide anti-vax information. For more evidence of this go to top of this page and place NVIC into the search box.

So using the NVIC website to show any kind of real evidence is not adequate. What you need to do is look at the vast body of research on influenza and the vaccines for influenza. For an example of an essay that uses lots of references read this blog posting on Flu Vaccine Efficacy. Click on the blue "PubMed"s which are all over it... those are links to abstracts of real papers (you may need to go a medical school library to read them).

By the way, bob, Rett Syndrome is genetic.

What a welcome relief to see in print someone who has not fallen for this quackery!!!It doesnt take a lot to fool people. Its incredulous that so much sympathy has been shown to this charlatan...

By Whathef**** (not verified) on 11 Nov 2009 #permalink

again, providing no evidence of "cherry picking studies". The NVIC site isn't trying to prove vacinations are bad, they are saying there is risks, and are doing research to better understand vaccination so we, the public, can make an informed opinion.

No evidence supporting your claim that nvic does not update their pages when more relevant data is produced.

Whether others share you opinion is also irilevant.

Also, you are missing the the whole point of the posting. Probably because you never read the information on the links i placed and already had your opninion formed.

I wasn't trying to show evidence that vaccines are bad or the wrong choice but trying to show a site where people can learn about vaccinations and potential risks. That there is cases where people appear to be having negative reactions and that nvic is trying to research to better understand these reactions.

If you followed the links you would see the list of speakers at the conference they held and their qualifications. You will also know that it isn't an anti-vac. conference. They have speakers from all around the industry and the goal is to get better knowledge of vaccinations.

Apparently you can't follow your own advice.

Ryan, who are you? You did not post anything before.

"bob" posted an inflammatory link to a "Vaccine Victim" page... and I did look at it. It showed a little with Rett Syndrome, which is genetic. Implying that the child's Rett Syndrome was associated with the DTP vaccine is actually quite dishonest.

I also posted it was my opinion that NVIC is a biased anti-vax organization. It is my opinion based on my observation, and I do not go there for real information. I prefer my data to be more vetted.

If you had read much of this blog you would know that no one claims vaccines are 100% safe. The only people who want 100% safe vaccines are the anti-vax folks, some of whom are quite willing to use dangerous treatments to their children.

So "Ryan", this blog posting is about the quackery surrounding a young woman after her influenza shot. If you have any real evidence on the relative risks of influenza versus the influenza vaccine, please present it. But it has to be from real primary source material (hint: use PubMed).

@Ryan

Instead of directing people to NVIC, the CDC and AAP would be better sites for people to take a look at. Not only do they present the realistic risks of the vaccines, they also explain the realistic benefits, the risks of injury from the diseases prevented and general information about both the diseases and the vaccines.

One way to get a better idea about the NVIC is to look at the blog of founder Barbara Loe Fisher. She routinely points out purported risks and fails to correct her posts when it is shown that she is wrong. She is also so convinced that vaccines cause autism that she has stated "And if it's not thimerosal, then it must be some other vaccine-related interaction", without providing any links to any research supporting such a claim.

Oh, and the list of speakers includes lots of unreliable sources. From Ayoub (black helicopters!), Mercola (who cannot make up his mind what causes autism, and who also posted the false information about squalene), Bob Krakow, Amy Lansky (a homeopath, whose son was never formally diagnosed), Gary Null, Wakefield (who faked data for lawyer paid research) and on and on.

That conference was also noted here with Dr. Bob Sears: Stealth anti-vaccinationist?. Here is a paragraph about NVIC:

Dr. Bob is going to be a speaker at the National Vaccine Information Center's very own 4th International Public Conference on Vaccination in October. The NVIC, in case you're not familiar with it, is one of the oldest and (prior to the emergence of Generation Rescue) most vociferous anti-vaccine groups, having been formed in 1982 by that grande dame of the anti-vaccine movement, Barbara Loe Fisher, who announces it thusly:...video link...Note the clever P.R. Note how Fisher never uses the word "against" or "anti-" anything. She paints her antivaccine group NVIC as "pro-education" and "pro-informed consent" and for "defending your right to choose." She even ends her video by saying, "Stand up for vaccine freedom of choice." To look at Generation Rescue, note how Jenny McCarthy is always saying she's not "anti-vaccine" but rather "pro-safe vaccine." The anti-vaccine crowd knows that it's far better PR to be seen as being for something rather than just against something.

It then goes on about your vaulted speakers list.

There is some interesting stuff about Barbara Loe Fisher in Arthur Allen's book Vaccine: The Controversial Story of Medicine's Greatest Lifesaver.

since, you chose to avoid any of the arguments and things i stated in my previous post. It is of my humble opinion you are just posting to salvage your pride and defend your initial incorrect observations on why i was posting. Therefore, it is rather pointless to continue the "conversation".

No evidence to support what you've claimed.
No understanding of what i was posting.
No evidence that my source was not creditable.
Self admitted that you are only posting your opinion unsupported by facts or even sound reasoning.

e.g. Use of the word inflammatory. Again, another baseless opinion.

Not address the arguments or statements in my previous post.

End of dialog. Good luck.

Pot, meet kettle.

Ryan-bob:

No evidence that my source was not creditable.

I told you Rett Syndrome is genetic, and the website implied it was caused by a vaccine. What part of that did you not understand?

The first link bob provided has this tidbit:

We are not going to wait any longer for government or industry to answer the big question of whether the nearly 70 doses of 16 vaccines that doctors now give our children between the day of birth and age 18 is contributing to the unexplained chronic disease and disability epidemic that is harming far too many of our children.

If I'm reading the recommended schedule correctly, I count 47 doses in the normal schedule for birth to age 18:

HepB - 4 doses
Rotavirus - 2 doses
DTP - 4 doses
HiB - 3 doses
Pneumococcal - 1 dose
IPV - 4 doses
Flu - 18 doses
MMR - 2 doses
Varicella - 2 doses
HepA - 2 doses
Meningococcal - 1 dose (earlier than 11-12 years only for high risk)
TDaP - 1 dose
HPV - 3 doses

So, where she's getting the 70 doses, I have no clue. That was just the first thing that I came across that was wrong, and close to the beginning, at that. I don't have time at the moment to examine the rest of the post.

Other members at the conference.

DIANE HARPER, MD, MPH, MS

Dr. Harper is the leading international expert on HPV vaccines having worked with both Merck and GSK to develop Gardasil and Cervarix in phase II and phase III trials. She has published the sentinel work on both vaccines and is an on call consultant to WHO for HPV vaccine policy in developing countries. She serves as an international grant reviewer for the UK and for the EU Research Councils. She has been instrumental in guiding the course of HPV vaccination around the world.

PETER DOSHI, MA
Doshi received a master of arts degree from Harvard University in East Asian studies and a bachelor of arts degree from Brown University. He has received numerous awards for his academic achievements, including being named the âBest Socio-Cultural Anthropologistâ by Brown University in 2002. In 2006, Harvard University and the Japanese publishing house Kodansha, Ltd. named his master's thesis--on the drug-induced pharmaceutical disaster "SMON" in Japan--best graduate essay in Japanese studies. At Massachusetts Institute of Technology, he was awarded a Presidential Fellowship to support his studies.

DAVID AYOUB, MD
Dr. Ayoub graduated from University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and University of Illinois College of Medicine, completing a residency in Diagnostic Radiology at Southern Illinois University and a fellowship in Cardiovascular and Interventional Radiology at University of Iowa. As a vaccine safety researcher, he has lectured on vaccine topics at numerous autism conferences and testified in state legislative hearings on vaccination. He is coauthor of "Influenza Vaccine in Pregnancy; Critical assessment of the Recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices" which was published in 2006 in the American Journal of Physicians and Surgeons. He is currently working on several research projects regarding the safety of mercury and aluminum components of vaccines.

To list a few. As i said, and it still stands, speakers from across the industry. I am sure there is some you question and some i question. But there is a large list of speakers. Since, our list combined isn't even half the speakers. I think its fair to say that picking a few of them and "discrediting" them is hardly evidence.

What causes Rett syndrome?

Rett syndrome is caused by mutations (structural alterations or defects) in the MECP2 (pronounced meck-pea-two) gene, which is found on the X chromosome (see section on "Who gets Rett syndrome" for a discussion of the importance of the involvement of the X chromosome). Scientists identified the gene â which is believed to control the functions of several other genes â in 1999. The MECP2 gene contains instructions for the synthesis of a protein called methyl cytosine binding protein 2 (MeCP2), which acts as one of the many biochemical switches that tell other genes when to turn off and stop producing their own unique proteins. Because the MECP2 gene does not function properly in those with Rett syndrome, insufficient amounts or structurally abnormal forms of the protein are formed. The absence or malfunction of the protein is thought to cause other genes to be abnormally expressed, but this hypothesis has not yet been confirmed.

Is Rett syndrome inherited?

Although Rett syndrome is a genetic disorder â resulting from a faulty gene or genes â less than 1 percent of recorded cases are inherited or passed from one generation to the next. Most cases are sporadic, which means the mutation occurs randomly, mostly during spermatogenesis, and is not inherited.

sourced: http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/rett/detail_rett.htm

Also,

Fiumara A, Polizzi A, Mazzei R, Conforti L, Magariello A, Sorge G, Pavone L. Rett syndrome phenotype following infantile acute encephalopathy. J Child Neurol 2002 Sep;17(9):700-2 . Department of Pediatrics, University of Catania, Italy.
Rett syndrome is a progressive neurodevelopmental disorder with a well-defined clinical spectrum and course. Recently, mutations in the gene encoding X-linked methyl-CpG binding protein 2 MECP2) have been identified as the cause of Rett syndrome. Along with the classic form, variant forms of Rett syndrome and Rett syndrome phenotypes are also recognized. We report on a girl who, at age 2 months, developed an acute encephalopathy with destructive brain damage 12 hours after acellular pertussis vaccination. Peripheral lymphocyte subset analysis revealed the existence of T lymphocytes double positive for CD4 and CD8 markers. This pattern normalized over the following 3 months. Months later, the girl manifested a Rett syndrome phenotype. DNA screening of the MECP2 gene was unrevealing in the child and
her parents. This previously unreported association emphasizes the notion that Rett syndrome phenotypes can result from different (either genetic or environmental) causes.

Enjoy

where does the number 70 come from. Maybe, you didn't get the updated schedule of.

Routine annual influenza vaccination is recommended for all children aged 6 months through 18 years. Children aged younger than 9 years who are receiving influenza vaccine for the first time or who were vaccinated for the first time during the previous season but only received 1 dose should receive 2 doses of influenza vaccine at least 4 weeks apart. Healthy nonpregnant persons aged 2 through 49 years may receive either live attenuated influenza vaccine or inactivated influenza vaccine.

Add that to your number.

for a full look at the schedule and what the CDC recommends review the following.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/child-schedule.htm#chgs

Hi Ryan-bob,
I'm not in the medical field so would you mind translating that Rett syndrome study from Pubmed into actual English? I'm completely baffled by "Peripheral lymphocyte subset analysis revealed the existence of T lymphocytes double positive for CD4 and CD8 markers." But all of it looks mostly like gibberish to me, except your money quote that one baby developed Rett syndrome after getting her acellular pertussis shot. But please tell me what all that stuff means.

it means this:

his previously unreported association emphasizes the notion that Rett syndrome phenotypes can result from different (either genetic or environmental) causes.

That Rett's can develop from either genetic or environmental. And that is it.

By ryan-boab (not verified) on 11 Nov 2009 #permalink

Dianne, Ryan-bob does not understand what he posted. So don't expect a coherent response.

Ryan-bob:

where does the number 70 come from. Maybe, you didn't get the updated schedule of.---------------------- Routine annual influenza vaccination is recommended for all children aged 6 months through 18 years.

Reading comprehension fail.

What Todd wrote:

HepB - 4 doses Rotavirus - 2 doses DTP - 4 doses HiB - 3 doses Pneumococcal - 1 dose IPV - 4 doses Flu - 18 doses MMR - 2 doses Varicella - 2 doses HepA - 2 doses Meningococcal - 1 dose (earlier than 11-12 years only for high risk) TDaP - 1 dose HPV - 3 doses

Though I believe that list has errors (it may be a cut and paste error with the pdf file). It should be up to age 6:
3 HepB
3 Rotavirus
5 DTaP (trivalent = 15)
4 Hib
4 PCV
6 Influenza (yearly)
2 MMR (trivalent = 6)
2 Varicella
2 HepA
(ignoring the ones recommended for high risk populations)

The total is 45. And then for up to age 18 it would be:
1 Tdap
3 HPV
12 Influeza (yearly)
1 MCV
(again, ignoring the ones for high risk populations).

The total for a girl up to age 18 is then 62 , which is actually less than 70. You might get up to 70 if you include the vaccines for high risk populations, but that would be dishonest (since it claimed all children get 70). Also, I am not going to quibble over the HPV only being given to girls, since it may be approved for boys in the near future.

Also most kids don't get the influenza vaccine. Plus I am still waiting for that well documented data on the relative risks between the influenza vaccine and the actual disease. The latest CDC H1N1 update says

In addition, 18 flu-related pediatric deaths were reported this week; 15 of these deaths were confirmed 2009 H1N1, and three were influenza A viruses, but were not subtyped.

More reading comprehension fail: Ayoub is a nutter who is not respected here. Hence the reference to "black helicopters."

... the the reading comprehension continues to fail... The paper was a case report, basically a well documented anecdote. And it is talking about "Rett syndrome phenotypes", which just says it looks like it. It is not the same as actual Rett Syndrome. You would know that if you had actually comprehended this sentence: Recently, mutations in the gene encoding X-linked methyl-CpG binding protein 2 (MECP2) have been identified as the cause of Rett syndrome.

Also find a dictionary and look up these two words:
phenotype
genotype
(and then go to your local community college and sign up for Biology 101)

Since it is an older paper, the syndrome has been studied more, and here is a review of the genetics: Biogenic Amines in Rett Syndrome: The Usual Suspects.:

Rett syndrome (RTT) is a severe postnatal neurological disorder caused by mutations in the methyl-CpG binding protein 2 (MECP2) gene.

and The molecular pathology of Rett syndrome: synopsis and update.:

Genetic mutations of the X-linked gene MECP2, encoding methyl-CpG-binding protein 2, cause Rett syndrome (RTT) and other neurological disorders. .... The finding that MECP2 levels are tightly regulated in neurons has important implications for the design of gene replacement or reactivation strategies for treatment of RTT, because affected individuals typically are somatic mosaics with one set of cells expressing a mutated MECP2 from the affected X, and another set expressing normal MECP2 from the unaffected X.

his previously unreported association emphasizes the notion that Rett syndrome phenotypes can result from different (either genetic or environmental) causes.

@ryan: What you mean to say is that the authors speculate a Rett phenotype can result from environmental causes, right? All they have is a case report and a temporal association (with vaccines, no less, so we can speculate a little ourselves.)

To demonstrate an actual association they would either need epidemiology or a case-control study.

By the way, Ryan-bob, you dragging up the one case report when the genetics of Rett Syndrome was just being explored is a common tactic. It is called Cherry Picking.

I'm asking Ryan-bob because to most of us non-medical people what he posted is gibberish. Quick R-B--what's a phenotype? What does Retts Sydrome do to one's CD4 cells and CD8 cells? How was this case different? Show us that you understand what that excerpt actually is saying, not your bottom-line summary/opinion.

Not sure how a site that is doing research for Vaccination is random and not relevant. They are also doing research on vaccines.

...

This also held a conference: The 4th International Public Conference on Vaccination

...

Seems like a crediable source of information to me. Unless you can prove othewise with your facts and evidence.

So, if I have the idea that the world's major leaders are all secretly reptilian humanoids, I never actually have to prove this bizarre idea of mine? All I have to do is start the official-sounding National Reptilian Humanoid Information Center and announce that I'm "doing research" on Reptilian Humanoids, and now I'm a "crediable [sic] source of information" until someone "prove[s] othewise [sic] with [their] facts and evidence"? Huzzah!

Hey, maybe instead I should start the National Diseases Are Actually Bad And Preventing Them Is Good You Braindead Morons Information Center....

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 11 Nov 2009 #permalink

Author: I think you are being entirely too generous. The symptoms she presented in the early videos were so absurd, and in each video she was showing different symptoms anyway. It's hard to see how she could not have consciously constructed this nonsense. Furthermore, she is an adult who can certainly make up her own mind. Hoax or not, to crusade on account of this dubious experience against one of the true successes of modern medicine as vaccination (anyone out there got polio recently?) is really despicable.

By Quid Quintessa (not verified) on 11 Nov 2009 #permalink

'So "Ryan", this blog posting is about the quackery surrounding a young woman after her influenza shot.'

Chris, theres no quackery surrounding Desirees distressing illnes due to the H1N1 vaccine. Perhaps you are saying the doctors are John Hopkins were quacks for diagnosing dystonia...or that Desiree was shamming..in which John Hopkins should sack its staff.

as for the vaccines and autism link still being denied..it was parents of autistic kids who made the connection, later confirmed by Dr Wakefield, which did not endear him to the murder...sorry ..medical profession

@Chris

Sorry for the formatting errors in that list. I got the information from the 2009 recommended schedule available on the CDC web site and totaled the numbers through age 18. Typed them into a text file, then copied and pasted that over. Perhaps I should learn to use that Preview button down below.

As to brian, I notice that, once again, he talks about "doctors at John Hopkins" (psst, it's Johns Hopkins, btw), yet fails to provide any citations from actual, named doctors who really examined Desiree. He also repeats the canard that anyone here is saying she was faking, but astute readers will note that we (and Orac in particular) specified that she most likely was not faking it. Finally, he brings up Wakefield, again, despite the fact that it has been shown that Wakefield made assertions that his study did not back up, that he faked data for his study and that he had a number of ethical violations, including undisclosed financial interests.

hmm,...one of my posts is missing...

'As to brian, I notice that, once again, he talks about "doctors at John Hopkins" (psst, it's Johns Hopkins, btw), yet fails to provide any citations from actual, named doctors who really examined Desiree.''

wel, like YOU Todd, they dont provide their names an addresses.
Strange that you make assertions about Wakefield that YOU cant back up! You get paid by BIG PHARMA or are you freelance? The only claim of fake data is by Brian Deer, himself guilty of breaking journalist ethics, as Melanie Philips article tells...

No, Orac unlike many lesser minds who DO say shes faking it,because they lack his subtlty, chooses the vague claim of psychogenic (the initial diagnosis said 'felt had apsychogenic component!),a meanlingless term for a neurologist. Its an updated version of what used to be called 'hysteria'. But in her case, there is no cause for her 'psychogenesis'. There is for he 'dystonia': poisoning due to the vaccine. The doctors gave her no hope...strange if it was psychogenic, and was bound to go away.
But it wasnt going away...till she swaw Dr Buttar.

I thought Generation Rescue cured people with the GF/CF diet. How come they didn't just keep her away from milk and bread for a few days instead of sticking IV's in her?

Can we conclude from this that the diet is a waste of time?

By Questionable (not verified) on 12 Nov 2009 #permalink

as for the vaccines and autism link still being denied..it was parents of autistic kids who made the connection, later confirmed by Dr Wakefield,

It's clear it must have come from parents, who wanted to sue, and then through their lawyers it got to Wakefield, who "confirmed" it.

Wakefield tried to find an association between measles in the gut and autism. Where did this idea come from, anyway? Which prior scientific work was he basing this on? Did he just dream it up? "I bet it's the measles virus" or something like that?

Real scientific theories are typically based on some prior work or observation. Completely made up ideas have little chance of being right.

@Joseph

Actually, Wakefield was trying to show that the combination MMR caused autism. He was perfectly fine with a measles vaccine by itself, since he had a patent for a single vaccine in the works. Though, his claims of "measles virus in the gut" seems to contradict why a monovalent vaccine would be okay, anyway.

Then there's the problems with his study. Only 12 participants. Many of them actually had signs of autism before receiving the MMR, according to their medical records. The withdrawal of nearly every author from the study. Wakefield making claims in his press releases that were not backed up by the study. Possible contamination of the samples by the lab he used.

Just like to point out that libel laws in the UK are notoriously friendly to the plaintiff. In the US, if person A accuses person B of libel, then person A much prove that what person B said wasn't true, or credibly true; in the case of doubt, the case is awarded to person B. In the UK, if person A accuses person B of libel, then person B must prove that what he said was definitely true; if there is any possibility of doubt the case is awarded to person A.

With this in mind, remember that Wakefield brought a case against Brian Deer and Channel 4 (UK) for libel, 4 years ago and then dropped that case and paid their legal costs before the trial proceeded. THAT would be a very strange thing to do if the allegations made by Deer were even potentially untrue.

Just sayin'.

By Luna_the_cat (not verified) on 12 Nov 2009 #permalink

1. It was nearly 70. And as i posted cited from the CDC that an anual flu shot from 6 months not 6 years. Which would make it 18. Therefore, the number would be 66, making nearly statement of nearly 70 true.

Do i understand the technical jargon, no, not fully. But i do understand the underlining meaning and the summery of said science.

Rett is genetic but only 1% of the cases is it inhereted. Also, the findings in the report Fiumara A, Polizzi A, Mazzei R, Conforti L, Magariello A, Sorge G, Pavone L. Rett syndrome phenotype following infantile acute encephalopathy. J Child Neurol 2002 Sep;17(9):700-2 . Department of Pediatrics, University of Catania, Italy.
Show that environment does have an effect on wether someone gets Rett.

By my understanding the following statement "Recently, mutations in the gene encoding X-linked methyl-CpG binding protein 2 MECP2) have been identified as the cause of Rett syndrome. Along with the classic form, variant forms of Rett syndrome and Rett syndrome phenotypes are also recognized. " Shows the science believes the cause of Rett is the malfunctioning protein 2 MECP2.

In that study the showed that before the vaccination there was so such malfunctioning protein. Thus, proving that eventho Retts is genetic it is possible to develop it from an outside influence. Not just being born with it.

Does this mean vaccines are the cause? No. It is just showing that there is a possibility and is in no way conclusive but maybe further research needs to be done.

It is not that i think vaccines are bad but i question whether the risks of 60+ vaccines out weighs the risks of not getting them.- specifically the flu vac. How many people have you known that have died from the flu between the ages of 6 months and 18 years? or between 18 and 40.

You cannot deny that there is risks. It is on the inserts themselves. It is just whether you feel the risks are worth it.

I, for one, am for further research into the risks.

You can squabble all you want about this and that but you cannot deny that there is a increase in mental and immune disorders. This could be caused by a number for factors, and if vaccines happens to be one of them I am all for further research into this matter.

Wakefield had previously been involved in studies of the failed hypothesis that measles vaccination could be a risk factor for inflammatory bowel disease, specifically Chron's disease. I'm guessing that's where it comes from. He just had to dream up a further connection between inflammatory bowel disease and autism.

The parents' lawyers must have been familiar with Wakefield because of his Chron's work. If I may fill in the blanks here, when he was approached and asked if autism could be associated with vaccination, he must have immediately thought of measles and inflammatory bowel disease because of his prior work. The connection between inflammatory bowel disease and autism is something he had to completely make up, though. There's apparently no literature prior to 1998 on a possible connection there.

But i do understand the underlining meaning and the summery of said science.

...

Rett is genetic but only 1% of the cases is it inhereted.

All that means is that most Rett mutations are de-novo mutations. This is not particularly surprising for any syndrome that is highly disabling.

Also, the findings in the report ... Rett syndrome phenotype following infantile acute encephalopathy ... Show that environment does have an effect on wether someone gets Rett.

Again, do you see this is a case report, so it doesn't necessarily show what you think it does?

Rett Syndrome involves developmental regression nearly always.

I took another look at the vaccine schedule for 2009. I missed two doses of PCV when I did my first count, so the total number of doses of vaccines is 49 for the average, healthy child by age 18 years (32 doses by age 6 years). Certain at-risk populations may receive additional vaccines, and other children with known allergies will receive fewer.

That count uses combination vaccines. If they were split out into separate, monovalent vaccines, that adds 16 doses, resulting in a total of 65 doses, which is still less than the 70 cited by Barbara Loe Fisher. However, even saying 65 doses is misleading, because that is only if the MMR is split out into a separate measles jab, mumps jab and rubella jab (6 doses overall) and the DTaP is split out into a diphtheria jab, a tetanus jab and an acellular pertussis jab (12 doses overall).

To call a single dose of trivalent vaccine three doses is not correct and is rather intellectually dishonest. A trivalent vaccine is a single vaccine with three different antigens in it. It is not three different vaccines.

Fisher's claim: 70 doses by age 18
The reality: 49 doses by age 18

At least, that's my understanding of it. Any pediatricians or immunologists in the house, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Info from: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/child-schedule.htm

Todd, they are also counting the HPV vaccine for all children, when it is only given to girls. That is also dishonest.

I also agree with you that it is dishonest to count the DTaP and MMR as three separate vaccines. Because in reality other vaccines contain variants of a pathogen. The Gardisil HPV has four types of strains, and the Cervarix vaccine has two strains. Also the IPV vaccine has protects against three serotypes of polio. The seasonal influenza vaccine typically has three strains.

I believe there might be multiple strains in some other vaccines, but I do not know the details. I learned about the multiple serotypes of virus in the vaccines from listening to twiv.tv podcast. That podcast is all about viruses, not bacteria, so I have not heard about the DTaP or Hib vaccines having different types of strains. Though I do believe the pertussis bacteria will genetically shift, and the vaccine needs to be modified.

(by the way, the NVIC seems to conveniently forget that vaccines are always being researched and updated all over the world)

So I agree, the NVIC essentially lies when it counts the DTaP and MMR as multiple shots, infers that every child gets the vaccines for high risk populations (but missed what was not on that list, the RSV for premature infants --- a mom of preemies told me that vaccine is very very expensive but necessary because her preemie twins had underdeveloped lungs), that all children are girls (by counting the HPV vaccine), and that they all get the influenza vaccine.

I also agree with you that it is dishonest to count the DTaP and MMR as three separate vaccines. Because in reality other vaccines contain variants of a pathogen. The Gardisil HPV has four types of strains, and the Cervarix vaccine has two strains. Also the IPV vaccine has protects against three serotypes of polio. The seasonal influenza vaccine typically has three strains.

Interesting point - I'm a little surprised they haven't picked up on this. After all, it would let them expand the total to well over 100 (54 "influenza vaccines", 12 "HPV vaccines", etc.).

FYI-Rotavirus is an ORAL vaccine, not an injection. DTaP, polio, Hep B, and H flu vaccines can be combined together into a single injection (one is DTaP, polio, and Hep B; another is DTaP, polio, and H flu).

Yes, vaccine have risks. However, the diseases that they prevent have far greater risks, greater morbidity, and greater mortality than the vaccines themselves. My son is getting every single vaccination that is recommended, just like I did when I was a kid and how I am now as an adult. Seeing what flu is doing to my patients and how miserable they are, I am doing everything I can to prevent myself and my family from getting it. Vaccines are a good part of that.

Brian, psychogenic does mean something to a neurologist. That you fail to understand that and that you fail to comprehend Orac and Dr. Novella stating unequivocally that Desiree is not faking her symptoms earns a big ole FAIL from me. However, YMMV.

gaiainc:

FYI-Rotavirus is an ORAL vaccine, not an injection.

Point taken... in addition the influenza vaccine also comes in an inhaled form, so it is also not an injection!

@Chris

Good points about the assumptions they make. I would add that if they are assuming that the antigen load makes the dose (i.e., since DTaP has three different antigens at a specific antigen load, therefore it has three different doses), then getting a disease naturally should be even worse: if the dose of vaccine is, say, 100 antigens, then a natural infection of 10,000 antigens would be equivalent to 100 doses, no?

psychogenic is a false category, its purpose is to distract attention from a physical based ailment...
remember, the diagnosis said 'felt to have a psychogenic component'...thats hardly unequivocal!
=======================

'With this in mind, remember that Wakefield brought a case against Brian Deer and Channel 4 (UK) for libel, 4 years ago and then dropped that case and paid their legal costs before the trial proceeded. THAT would be a very strange thing to do if the allegations made by Deer were even potentially untrue.'

not so
they were untrue: ever hear of thr Reynolds defence?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_v_Times_Newspapers_Ltd

i didnt think so:

'I understand The Sunday Times relied in the libel proceedings with Dr Wakefield on the Reynolds defence, which allows it to publish false stories if it can show some public interest applicable at the time. I understand that defence was a significant reason, along with the drain and cost on Dr Wakefield and his insurers for the dropping of the libel action against the Sunday Times on a prior occasion.'

http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/02/19/sunday-times-editor-m…

NOW THATS SHADY!

once again, brian, false:

Wakefield tried to kill the trial before it was heard, because he realised he didn't have a case; he dropped the case in the middle of the trial a few days after Justice Eady ordered Wakefield to produce his medical documents in court.

There is no mention of any "Reynolds defence" in publicly available court records, nor any representation that Channel Four or Deer admitted a potential that they might be wrong and only published "in public interest"; on the contrary, the case hinged around whether or not they were factually correct, because of the level of damage done to Wakefield by the allegations. The only mention of the "Reynolds defense" at all is in Wakefield apologists looking for excuses.

Once again, fail.

*sigh* yeah, yeah...gonna stop feeding the troll, now.

By Luna_the_cat (not verified) on 13 Nov 2009 #permalink

and your source for your claim is....none other than that embodiment of integrity: Mr Brian Deer, who jusst happemns to have links to GlaxoSMithKline:

http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/02/25/sunday-glaxo-vaccine-…

Good one: Luna..thats the way to make case!LOL

AND as we know those 'allegations' were false:

here is your man at work:

'After I noted this, an American TV show last week accused Deer of journalistic misconduct in reporting a story in which he was a major player without acknowledging this fact. Deer has been trying to deny this ever since.

First he threatened to sue the TV station, denying that he had laid the initial complaint which formed the bulk of the GMC inquiry and claiming instead that the GMC had approached him for information about Wakefield following his stories:

I did not lay the initial complaint against Wakefield. This allegation is a fabrication, albeit rather a small one in the MMR issue. The GMC asked me for my journalistic evidence arising from published stories. It was my public duty to supply my findings to this statutory regulator.

Well, various people did think that Brian Deerâs complaint was the trigger for the GMC inquiry. One of those people, it appears, was Brian Deer. Screenshots record that, on his website, Deer previously boasted that he had instigated the GMC hearing. In May 2007, his website noted:

GMC inquiry: After submissions by Brian Deer to the UK General Medical Council, the doctorsâ regulatory body announced a public inquiry in to the affair. Sunday Times December 12 2004.

By last week, however, the wording had been changed to:

GMC inquiry: After Brian Deerâs reports, the UK General Medical Council, the doctorsâ regulatory body, announced a public inquiry into the affair. The Sunday Times, December 12 2004.

In May 2007, he wrote on his website:

Pending a General Medical Council [GMC] fitness to practice panel hearing - arising from the investigation set out on this page... (my emphasis)

Those highlighted words have now vanished from the website, which uses instead this formulation:

Following Brian Deerâs investigation, and charges laid against Wakefield, Walker-Smith and Murch by the General Medical Council...

The perception that the GMC was investigating Deer's complaints about Wakefield was shared by no less a person than a High Court judge. In a libel ruling in November 2006 arising from a Channel 4 Dispatches programme about the Wakefield affair, Mr Justice Eady noted that:

Well before the programme was broadcast [Mr Deer] had made a complaint to the GMC about the Claimant. His communications were made on 25 February, 12 March and 1 July 2004. In due course, on 27 August of the same year, the GMC sent the Claimant a letter notifying him of the information against him.

etc
http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/3362116/a-deer-in-the-headli…

and you trust this man? Clearly youre not onle a bad judge of character, your pro-vaccine ideology( you work for the vaccine makers) make you a poor commentator on this story./

parents love Andy:

'Dear Andy,

I have watched in gratitude and appreciation for the work you have done and the sacrifices you continue to make for our children. You didn't ask for this, and you could have hid from the furor, but you didn't and you continue to stand and say what you know and what is right. I'm sure this has taken an insane toll on you personally and professionally.

My son had his first MMR at nearly 12 months of age. Up until that point he would laugh and play at the diaper changing table; we had a game we played with the baby powder, and he had this cute little grin and an adorable chortle and would stare at my face to see my reactions. Soon after that shot he began fighting me at diaper changes, often kicking and screaming to get away from me. I didn't understand what had changed at the time. One month after his MMR, I was changing his diaper on a blanket on the playroom floor... he fought me so hard at a diaper change, he stood up and threw his body into a workout machine, and I had to take him to the ER to repair a detached frenulum which bled all over. Never again did we have the fun time we used to have at diaper changes and the direct look he used to give me was gone... I think he was in pain.

He had had medical problems before the MMR; it now turns out he had a milk allergy and I think he didn't handle earlier shots well... but after he got that shot he really changed. He had other vaccine reactions after that... it was all a cumulative negative progression into a regression. He continued to develop good language into his second year, and after that was continually getting sick. The 7 vaccines he received at 19 months with 25 mcg of thimerosal on top of already being ill with fever and ear infection and being treated for antibiotics, on the same day he was given THOSE shots, he was given 10 additional days of antibiotics.

As I said, after age two, he was just chronically ill, and at one point losing weight. He was so sick and tired at his 3rd birthday party, he just wanted to lay down on a towel and all he could say is "bed." Thank God he never got the 2nd MMR; the first is one of my largest regrets. He didn't get diagnosed with autism until he was 3 1/2. I thought his language regression was due to all the ear infections and perhaps he couldn't hear well. Plus of course he had all the accompanying GI problems. (Kinda all intertwined I later learned!)

I found a Defeat Autism Now! doctor when he was 4 1/2, and his life and ours turned around. So many things with his poor messed up system got so much better. After years of biomedical, and support from knowledgeable doctors, he dramatically improved. So much for diarrhea and ear infections "being part of autism" as I was told by one local pediatrician!

Thank you for all you have done.
Jennifer McNulty
California
http://www.wesupportandywakefield.com/feedback.asp

How does this square with Brian Deers and others claims hes a crook?

How does this square with Brian Deers and others claims hes a crook?

Successful con men are ALWAYS trusted by their victims; that's how they operate.

Again, there remains no evidence she was ever diagnosed with dystonia nor that she received treatment at Johns Hopkins.

Everything shown in the video interview refers exclusively to Fairfax Inova and has no mention of dystonia.

If she or GR or AOA or anyone else is claiming she was treated at Hopkins and diagnosed with dystonia it is incumbent on them to provide proof in the form of her medical records.

Since that still hasn't happened, and likely never will, I hope in the future people will be a little more skeptical of self-reporters with sensational but unverified claims.

The CDC/ACIP recommended schedule for children ages 0-6 years: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/downloads/child/2009/09_0-6y…

The CDC/ACIP recommended schedule for children ages 7-18 years: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/downloads/child/2009/09_7-18…

Time to do some counting through age 18 years:

DTaP/Td/Tdap: 6 doses (5 of the DTaP, one likely of the Tdap).
Hib: 4 doses

Prevnar: 4 doses (made up of 7 of the most common serotypes of strep pneumoniae known to cause invasive disease) (can give another dose after age 5 if functional asplenic or immunocompromised)
Polio: 4 doses
Hep B: 3 doses
Hep A (since my state is endemic): 2 doses
MMR: 2 doses
Varicella: 2 doses
Meningococcal: 1 dose
HPV: 3 doses
Rotavirus: 3 oral doses
Influenza: 19 (2 for the first year, one thereafter including age 18)

That gets me 53 doses (54 if you're functionally asplenic) of which 50 are IM/SQ and 3 are oral. You can use the nasal version of the influenza vaccine at age 2 or greater if they are non-pregnant and don't have another contraindications (like asthma or diabetes). I'm not getting 70. The schedule can also be done in fewer injections as DTaP-IPV-Hep B is one vaccine and DTaP-IPV-Hib is another. There is also a combination vaccine for Hepb/Hep A and a couple of others as well.

I'm having a really hard time understanding why I should not trust Brian Deer. He made an investigation. If he found out information about how a doctor was practicing that concerned him, shouldn't he inform the appropriate people? Seriously. Shouldn't he? I don't get it. I also don't find Melanie Phillips a credible source. I really want to know which American TV show accused Brian Deer of "journalistic misconduct". Sounds about as credible as the Johns Hopkins doctors diagnosing Desiree with dystonia... which, oh wait, we have no outside proof.

As for testimonials, Brian, lots of people loved Bernie Madoff as well and wrote him glowing testimonials.

@brian: You want to read other opinions about Andrew Wakefield from parents of autistic children? See here. Nearly all of them are written by parents.

@466, ewwww. Seriously. Parents love Wakefield. Not. Holy crap. How do a couple thousand desperate and unfortunately hoodwinked parents of autistic kids translate to the generalization that parents love that man?

I have three children on the spectrum and I personally believe that Wakefield has done tremendous harm to so many people on so many levels. Perhaps we'd still have ended up with this manufactured controversy regarding vaccines because God knows there are plenty of quacks willing to do anything for a buck and some fame, so someone else would surely have taken that law firm's money and started the whole thing. Perhaps. However, sine Wakefield is the one who got the ball rolling and since he's profitting hand over fist off of autistic children and their desperate parents, well, he gets to bear the ultimate responsibility. Of course, folks like Handley and the others at AoA can stand next to him.

No, parents do not love Wakefield. At least not most of them, at least not the ones who have a sincere desire to avoid the woo and stick with replicable science.

That parents will like Wakefield is not unexpected.

Clinicians can expect to recieve gifts, cards, thank you letters and paper adverts from their clients.

Work on any non-terminal ward (and even then....) and you'll expect to see flowers, chocolates and other gifts on a routine basis.

Sorry, anyone who claims their child degenerated or regressed or whatever buzzword you care to use, grow up. You know as well as I do your child had some odd behaviours or reactions before the vaccine. I too am the mother of an autistic child who is now 16. She would like all of you antivaxxers to know that she is happy and proud to be autistic and wouldn't change even if that were possible. We started speech therapy when she was 31/2 and now at 16 she has an 80% average in english class. So stop wasting your time trying to eliminate so-called toxins from their poor little bodies and feeding them a diet that would be considered cruel and unusual punishment in prison. Get them some speech therapy; love them; take them outside and feed them an ice cream cone and stop trying to blame everyone else. Autism is what it is; accept it.

young woman in France has been diagnosed with the crippling illness Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS) after a swine flu shot, following reports yesterday about a Virginia teen who was similarly struck down by the disease hours after receiving the H1N1 vaccine.

The woman, identified only as a health worker, was diagnosed with GBS six days after she received the swine flu shot, according to the French health ministry.

Health Minister Roselyne Bachelot said the case diagnosed was light and that the woman was recovering.

âNews of the apparently vaccine-related illness is likely to dampen enthusiasm here for getting vaccinated against swine flu,â reports Deutsche Presse-Agentur.
France has been at the center of a Europe-wide resistance to getting the swine flu shot, after authorities initially announced their intention to vaccinate the entire population. Outrage peaked central Europe following the revelation that German Chancellor Angela Merkel and government ministers, as well as the armed forces there, received a special additive-free H1N1 vaccine that didnât contain ingredients such as mercury and squalene that were included in shots for the general public
http://www.prisonplanet.com/french-woman-gets-crippling-illness-after-h…

Meh. I stayed out for this long, but why not throw one to the troll:

The French have a fondness for unpasteurized cheese. Campylobacter jejuni also has a fondness for unpasteurized cheese. C. jejuni is well-known for causing GBS. I would consider foodborne campylobacteriosis as a possible cause of GBS and would suggest the doctors ask this woman about her eating habits.

By Rogue Epidemiologist (not verified) on 13 Nov 2009 #permalink

@brian: Did you hear about the guy who developed athlete's foot after the Flu shot? That guy probably needs some chelation as well.

'Successful con men are ALWAYS trusted by their victims; that's how they operate

thanks scott..precisely my point: Brian Deer is conman who has found a willing audience. Just go read the Melanie Phillips article: Deer in the Headlights again.

'Again, there remains no evidence she was ever diagnosed with dystonia nor that she received treatment at Johns Hopkins.

Everything shown in the video interview refers exclusively to Fairfax Inova and has no mention of dystonia.'

Right Bill, since JH has shown you the papers, you say they dont exist. Why dont you contact FOX news...or is that to difficult? You can call thek liars as you are so certain she wasant treated at JH when they said shed had been. Fortunately what you believe is of little account.

Yours is one more post proving the importance of the Jennings story..its upset the pro-vaccine zealots. They wish she was still disabled or had at least not gone public....

'No, parents do not love Wakefield. At least not most of them, at least not the ones who have a sincere desire to avoid the woo and stick with replicable science.'

another science zealot..but glad you admit many parents do love Andy..at least the ones well informed ...Meawhile, Better tell that to the europeans:

'55 per cent indicated they would take the shot in September, but that number has now plunged to just 17 per cent, figures partly influenced by media attention on the case of nine individuals who have filed formal charges in the French courts claiming that the H1N1 mass vaccination campaign is a deliberate attempt to poison the French population.

The drop in numbers willing to take the vaccine mirrors that in Germany where just 13% now say they are willing to take the shot, down from 51% in July.'
http://www.prisonplanet.com/french-woman-gets-crippling-illness-after-h…

'brian: Did you hear about the guy who developed athlete's foot after the Flu shot? That guy probably needs some chelation as well.'

what guy Joe?
===========
Rogue crank:
'The French have a fondness for unpasteurized cheese. Campylobacter jejuni also has a fondness for unpasteurized cheese. C. jejuni is well-known for causing GBS. I would consider foodborne campylobacteriosis as a possible cause of GBS and would suggest the doctors ask this woman about her eating habits.'

Possible cause? So a 'possible cause' is to be preferred to clear case of cause and effect? LOL...ANy evidence the victoim was eating unpasteurised cheese at the time? ....I didnt think so..

This sort of freaky speculation is what passes for 'science' with the zealots .

agashem:
'She would like all of you antivaxxers to know that she is happy and proud to be autistic and wouldn't change even if that were possible. '

No idea who this idiot is, but PROUD to be autistic? Thats not any parent ive heard. No proof this person has an autistic child, and clear signs he/she doesnt.

As stated before, Deer himself has stated that he supplied the GMC will documentation and the results of his own investigation.

At no point has anyone quoted Code, Standard or Law that he has even alledgedly breached. No one has yet to quote GMC documentation that bars complainants from reporting the outcomes of their own compliants hearings.

He has stated that he is not the Complainant, which has been backed up by documentation from the GMC.

GMC says no. Phillips says yes. Who is the only and exclusive organisation that has the documentation and authourity to declare what status Deer has? Tip: it ain't Melanie Phillips.

Anyway, at the current time, the only source to indicate that DJ had been treated at any point at JH is DJ. All news reports thus far have simply stated "Dr's say" but have not quoted any actual Dr, nor have they appeared to check any documentation. Everything appears to be based on DJ's say-so.

The closest thing is the quotes from Rachel Lynch, who didn't comment on her case specifically.

It's a simple task. Link to the video or article that identifies specific Dr's. State the time stamp and paragraph.

"No idea who this idiot is, but PROUD to be autistic? Thats not any parent ive heard."

It wasn't from a parent, it was from the daughter.

If you've seriously never heard of people who are proud to be autistic, then thats a very very good sign that you've not spent much time outside curebie circles.

Or read much of the biographical literature.
Or worked in an autism service.
Or attended autscape/autreat.
Or visited any of the numerous mutual support and community websites for people with autism.

In other words, your ignorance is showing.

Dystonia is incurrable. I have had dystonia since the age of 6 and I am now 62 years old. While their are treatments for dystonia you cannot cure it. I have seen the video of this young woman and her symtoms are similar to dystonia. However, she could not possibly recover completly from her condition if it was dystonia. It looks to me like some kind of temporary result of the shot. It annoys me that so many are paying so much attention to this case. There are cases of people with this disease that are far worse than this individual. I myself was at one time was much worse than this woman is. Medications have worked wonders for me. My dystonia took 10 years to be properly diagnosed. I wrote a book about my life with the disease titled, "Surviving Dystonia," and my website is titled, survivingdystonia.com. I will contact this woman or see if she contacts me because if she has dystonia she has a long difficult road ahead of her. By the way there are many medications for treating dystonia but botox injections and in serious cases Deep Brain Stimulation are the most common. This disease can also be hereditary. There are cases where brothers and sisters have developed the disease. Feel free to email me at my website, "suvivingdystonia.com if you want to hear a very sad story about this disease.

Okay, she is sitting there making this video and receiving IV meds. My husband and myself are both nurses. We noticed a couple of discrepencies regarding this infusion therapy. First, there is no IV pump. My husband pointed this out and I said, "it's running by gravity" to which he replied, "in order for infusion to run by gravity, there must be roller clamps to determine the rate of infusion". Also, would just like to inquire about why her IV insertion site is covered. This is not very believable. Try harder....

JESUS SAVES!!!!!!!!!!!!

By Mrs. Clark (not verified) on 13 Nov 2009 #permalink

Scott @467

Successful con men are ALWAYS trusted by their victims; that's how they operate.

Victims of con men often deceive themselves about the con rather than admit they were taken. Due to circumstances I won't bore you with we wound up insuring a car through through the precious owner's agent in in the small Mennonite town of Linden, in central Alberta. A couple of years later a Maddoff style Ponzi scheme was perpetrated by a resident of Linden with most of the victims being either locals or residents of the Mormon Town of Cardston in southwestern Alberta.

A couple of years after the shit first hit the fan, I heard a radio interview of our former insurance agent and the RCMP fraud detective who was investigating the case. The detective expressed great frustration at the lack of cooperation from the victims who refused to believe that the perpetrator of the fraud had absconded with their money even though a bank in California had managed to snag some of the funds in passing. The victims chose to believe that the perpetrator was in the US trying to track down the missing funds. The insurance agent described how he had tried to warn people that whole thing was a scam and had lost a lot of friends as result.

Many of the victims of con men like Wakefield and Buttar would rather delude themselves into believing that any normal progress that occurs is due the treatments they are spending money on or in the cases where there is no improvement they imagine improvement is occurring. They do this rather than lose face by admitting they have taken. The more evidence is presented against the con men, the louder their victims defend them in order to preserve their own self image.

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 13 Nov 2009 #permalink

thde latest ;pathetic attempt to demomstrate Desiree is a fraud, is 'Mrs Clark' a 'nurse' One can onmly pity her patients. But is this the enemies best shot?
=================
'Dystonia is incurrable. I have had dystonia since the age of 6 and I am now 62 years old. While their are treatments for dystonia you cannot cure it.

Carmine:
and for the umpteenth time, Dystonia was just used for her symptoms by the doctors at JohnS Hopkins.Most of the doctors she saw were baffled by her illness...Stop treating a label as if it were the disorder. The treatig doctor Buttar based his therapy her being poisoned by the flu vaccine, particularly the thimerosal.The success of the treatmemnt proves his diagnosis. If your Dystonia was not due to poisoning, then his cure would not work...

Oh, paging Ryan-bob... about the list of speakers at the NVIC vaccine conference! One of the speakers is a lawyer, Robert Krakow.

He has been discussed on this blog at least once. Once upon a time he had a lawsuit in the USA Autism Omnibus Court, but he (a lawyer!) withdrew! This is the entire text:

The petitioners filed an expert report pertaining to the Krakow case, as a âTheory 2â test case, on January 8, 2008. However, the petitioners subsequently filed a motion to withdraw the Krakow case as a test case in the Omnibus Autism Proceeding. That motion was granted on April 15, 2008. It is no longer appropriate to post an expert report containing personal information about the Krakow case on this publicly accessible website. The expert report, therefore, has been withdrawn.

To anyone who goes to the NVIC vaccine conference advertised by Ryan-bob, please ask Bob Krakow why he withdrew his lawsuit. Thank you.

brian whined:

and for the umpteenth time, Dystonia was just used for her symptoms by the doctors at JohnS Hopkins.Most of the doctors she saw were baffled by her illness.

Name those doctors. Link to the direct statements from those doctors.

Anything else is just second hand hearsay.

'He has stated that he is not the Complainant, which has been backed up by documentation from the GMC.''

Thats the issue . He WAS the complainant....Go read Philips again. or read his from AoA:

'According to documents obtained by Age of Autism (Melanie Philips of The Spectator reported on these documents last month, but we provide for the first time a copy of the key document HERE and new information on Dr. Wakefieldâs complaint against Deer; a copy of Dr. Wakefield's original 3/13 complaint to PCC is HERE and the addendum is HERE. Deerâs claim that he is not the complainant in the GMC investigation is false. In a February 25, 2004 email addressed to Tim Cox-Brown of the GMC, Deer first listed the GMC reference numbers of Drs Andrew Wakefield, John Walker-Smith and Simon Murch, and then wrote the following opening sentence.

âFollowing an extensive inquiry for the Sunday Times into the origins of the public panic over MMR, I write to ask your permission to lay before you an outline of evidence that you may consider worthy of evaluation with respect of the possibility of serious professional misconduct on the part of the above named registered medical practitionersâ

This statement stands in stark contrast to claims Deer has recently made denying he was a complainant in the GMC investigation. On February 19, 2009, amid growing concern over claims that Deer had failed to disclose his conflict, Deer made the following statement on a public blog,

âthe GMCâs procedures include monitoring media coverage for possible cases to be referred to fitness to practise committees. The GMC - following its own procedures â then approached me and asked if I had anything to substantiate what had appeared in The Sunday Times. I willingly supplied them with many of my files on the subject.â

In the copy of the document obtained by Age of Autism you can see for yourself that Deer is lying:

⢠He was not approached with an inquiry from the GMC, rather he approached the GMC himself and was âwriting to ask [their] permissionâ to do so.

⢠He did not provide substantiation for an existing inquiry, rather he took the initiative himself âto lay before you an outline of evidence.â

⢠He did not presume that the GMC was following up on his article from three days before in pursuance of its own procedures, rather he urged they follow up on evidence âthat you may find worthy of evaluation.â

⢠He did not merely respond to the GMCâs monitoring procedures, rather he sent Cox-Brown the GMC reference numbers for the three doctors, a clerical detail that only a complainant would think worthy of inclusion.

In her thorough report on Brian Deerâs role in the GMC trial, âA Deer in the Headlightsâ, Melanie Philips placed Deerâs introductory sentence to Timothy Cox nearly halfway through a lengthy article. We suspect that many may have missed this key statement. It proves clearly that while Deer has represented himself as an objective journalist, he has been reporting on a complaint that he made himself. Playing the dual role of journalist and complainant, Deer has misrepresented himself as an independent party. In the ultimate irony, Deer is guilty of the same offenseâfailure to disclose a conflict of interestâthat he accuses Wakefield of committing. As one source close to the investigation commented, âthatâs not just a smoking gun, thatâs a video of Brian Deer pulling the trigger.â'

etc
http://www.ageofautism.com/2009/03/a-character-assassin-caught-in-the-a…

another form of attack is to say 'where are the doctors who treated Desiree....they dont exist...Name them,,,.show us the documents.'

Apparently patient confidentiality means nothing here. If you phoned JH for the info theyd tell you to piss off.

It proves clearly that while Deer has represented himself as an objective journalist, he has been reporting on a complaint that he made himself.

Not that crap again. @brian: You're polluting the comments section of this blog. It's like having our own mini-whale.to here.

Thank you Brian, you only had to admit you had no evidence bar DJ's say so.

That's all you needed to say.

In regards patient confidentiality, there are several ways in which it can be recinded without the consent of the patient, indeed not doing so in some cases can itself be an act of professional negligence and dereliction of the duty of care.

Confidential data can also be released on a anonymised basis.

All DJ has to do is tell any member of her JH treatment team that they have her permission to confirm her attendance. Thats a grand total of one phone call. Once her treatment team have her permission, they can talk to whoever she gives her permission for them to do so. If they have ever made such a statement, then it would be easy for you to quote it.

You've basically told us that your earlier sources could not have obtained the information that you relied on them for.

If you're going to continue to insist that you have evidence of statements from JH, it doesn't help your case that you continuously fail to refer to it. It certainly damages your cause for you to turn round and say such statements are unlikely to exist.

So, put up or shut up.

In regards Deer, your AoA source fails to mention that the Health Secretary had already called for an investigation the prior saturday and that Wakefield had already replied that he welcomed the investigation.

This is AFTER the Lancet had redacted the article, and AFTER the original article had been seriously questioned in further discussion in the Lancet.

Deer had no reason not to expect that an invesigation was either underway or very likely to start. His email is dated AFTER John Reids statement and AFTER Wakefields response.

He has already been confirmed as not being the Complainant by the GMC , the only organisation that is entitled to bestow that status.

Niether Wakefield nor Phillips have ever denied Wakefield was paid. Phillips actually sources the payment in her April 2004 article.

Do keep up dear.

another form of attack is to say 'where are the doctors who treated Desiree....they dont exist...Name them,,,.show us the documents.'

Apparently patient confidentiality means nothing here. If you phoned JH for the info theyd tell you to piss off.

It's also irrelevant.

If Deer was the complainant, there is no Code, Standard or Law that prohibits him from reporting on the case, provided he does so accurately. Deer must not exert undue influence on the GMC panel, but there's no evidence that Deer is that powerful.

Despite several requests, not one of the Deer Hunters has yet to provide evidence that he is in contravention of any Code, Standard or Law that would be applicable to him if he were the complainant.

Complainants are expected to be invested in the hearings, and to talk about it. To disbar complainants from doing so risks stymying a valid form of change and adjustment for complainants.

It might not be tasteful (I personally would disagree with such behaviour if it were true) but there's no evidence that it's a breach of whateveritssupposedtobreach. Personal dislike of something someone has done does not equal a breach of professional ethics.

WHO criticised by public health expert:

'What's a nun doing talking on the Internet about the dangers of the Influenza A vaccine?

Our rule prescribes five hours of prayer and six of work. Ora et labora.

...

I devote part of the working hours to medical research. I'm a doctor of medicine and in 2006 I published the study Crimes and Abuses of the Pharmaceutical Industry.

When did you decide you had to speak out on influenza A?

In May this year I was asked to give a speech on the papillomavirus vaccine and I was very struck by the lack of scientific basis for the official recommendations. After a few days I spoke on TV-3 about this vaccine and since then I have been receiving requests to comment on the influenza A vaccine.

Doesn't the World Health Organization deserve to be trusted?

I don't understand the motives that have led WHO to act in the absurd way it is acting.

Absurd?

Yes. Last May, WHO changed the official definition of a pandemic -- it changed from a logical definition (a pandemic is an infection of global proportions and with a high mortality) to an illogical definition (a pandemic is an infection of global proportions).

What are the consequences of this change?

Under the new definition of "pandemic", the annual [seasonal] flu more than meets the requirements to be one. Are we going to declare a world health alert every fall? Besides absurdity from the scientific standpoint, this has serious financial and policy consequences.

You don't trust the vaccine. Why?

Unlike the annual seasonal flu vaccine, the influenza vaccine contains such powerful adjuvant substances that they can get the normal immune response to multiply by a factor of 10. In addition, two doses are recommended, to be received after the injection for seasonal influenza, which also contains adjuvants, although less potent. Never before have these substances been injected three times in a row in the general population, starting with children, the chronically ill and pregnant women.

What effects can result?

The artificial stimulation of the immune system can cause autoimmune diseases.

?

The same prospect of two of the influenza vaccines that have already been approved in Europe (Pandemrix and Focetra) indicates that it is expected that for every million people vaccinated, 99 will experience an autoimmune disease known as Guillain-Barré progressive paralysis.

If that happens, the drug companies would receive demands...

But in the U.S. a decree has already been approved exempting politicians and drug companies from liability.

Are you suggesting that the drug companies have acted irresponsibly?

What they have done is work for their interests.

Can someone be obliged to get vaccinated?

In 2007, WHO adopted a regulation establishing an exception. In all cases except one, the WHO makes recommendations, and only in one case may it give orders that override the sovereignty of member countries.

In the case of a pandemic.

Exactly. In 2007, WHO adopted a regulation that in case of a pandemic, WHO can legally bind member countries to vaccinate all or part of their population. The governments of these countries would be obliged then to impose fines or other penalties for individuals who refuse to be vaccinated.

Do you believe in world conspiracies?

I think there are interests at stake are not the good of the population. How can we justify the money invested in the purchase of vaccines if influenza A is milder than the annual seasonal flu? Spending so much money on vaccines and other preventive measures without sufficient scientific basis is an outrage and we should ask for accountability.

What do your fellow nuns say about the video and your statements?

An almost 90 year old sister raised the objection that the subject of influenza A is very serious and that I couldn't speak out against the vaccine without having well-founded arguments.

And?

After reading my report, she approached me after vespers and simply said to me: "Understood."

Aren't you afraid?

Sometimes.

Do you pray a lot?

As much as I can.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=16059

Thanks for confirming that you cannot answer direct questions brian.

You are done here.

I'd advise you to kindly leave in order to preserve your reputation, but you don't have one.

Toodles.

'If Deer was the complainant, there is no Code, Standard or Law that prohibits him from reporting on the case, provided he does so accurately. Deer must not exert undue influence on the GMC panel, but there's no evidence that Deer is that powerful.'

1. he wasnt being accurate.
2. He works for a paper with ties to the very powerful BIG PHARMA...and they exert a strong influence on the US govt for one.
http://wallstreetpit.com/9303-the-deal-between-big-pharma-and-the-white…

brian, why did Bob Krakow (a lawyer!) withdraw his lawsuit?

Brian, please quote the Code, Standard or Law that Deer is breaking. Whether you (and a tiny circle of others) think he isn;t being accurate is not something that has been proven. The last attempt collapsed before getting to court and was significantly in Deers favour. You have not explained why this would be except to conjure up unsupported accusations.

Your insinuation that the connection between the big boss of News Corporation and GlaxoSmithKline therefore means something something about something something therefore Deer is a liar is both utterly niave (Murdoch is on the boards of several large organisations) but also does not act as evidence of any form of conspiracy.

Deer has not only investigated 'big-pharma' before (as you have been told before) but Murdoch is several layers of management higher than Deer. There are literally multiple layers seperating the company Deer works for and the company Murdoch is in charge of. We are talking about multi-million pay checks here, asserting that Murdoch is Deer's boss makes as much sense as me asserting that I have worked for the Queen, simply because she's the ultimate head of an organisation I've worked for.

Deer is certianly not the only person casting doubts on Wakefields work, as you have been told upthread and in other thread. You would also know this had you any knowledge about the discussions in the Lancet.

Stop wasting time here, you have precious little left before the Black helicopters find you and get you!

They know where you live!!!!!