Today is a holiday in the U.S., Memorial Day. This is a day when we remember our war dead, but the three day weekend that accompanies the last Monday in May is also viewed as the unofficial start of summer. Consequently, I decided to take it easy and simply post a bit of e-mail from a reader apparently with the 'nym trose313:
You need a good dose of positive energy. Such negative rantings cannot be good. Plus, you are very one sided, which is never good. There is a lot of wonderful alternative treatments out there and when one hides behind such slanted information as you, I tend to wonder what the motivation is.
Well, trose (or T. Rose, or whoever). Nice stab at the implied evil motivation. I'm surprised you didn't use the dreaded pharma shill gambit. As for the good dose of "positive energy," personally I consider promoting science and reason, not to mention explaining why pseudoscience is pseudoscience, is positive energy. Still, I'll take in a bit of "positive energy" today by not going to work and not doing much. That's as positive as it gets today.
In the meantime, don't forget the real reason for the holiday, buried under the weekend trips, barbecues, and other activities.
I didn't want to say anything to you Orac, but your Aura has been really dark lately. I think this 'trose313' is on to something. Have you considered sticking a fork in an outlet for some 'positive' energy? ;)
People like trose313 are the ones with negative energy. To spout that there are good alternative treatments without one shred of evidence shows a dark and malicious mind (or we could be generous and say trose313 is just ignorant and gullible, is that positive enough for ya?)
Alternative medicine that works is called medicine. The only positive results from alternative medicine is the placebo effect. No other results have been shown as positive.
I don't know what this trose313 is talking about, you laugh at this stuff all the time! And what could be more positive than the healing power of laughter?!
You're going to need a few nuclei stripped of their electrons for the "positivie energy."
I suggest a good swig of acid. What with it's dissociated and positively charged protons, the acid should deliver quite a life changing "positive energy."
Good luck
Are there some good alternative treatments? Chances are good there are probably some out there. The best way to find them is to discard the blatantly false ones, and to smack the practitioners with a scientific-method shaped cluestick. Orac is helping to find the real, working CAM by discarding the rubbish.
Try the copper bracelets! Those must be just loaded with positive energy.
For the record, as a frequent visitor here, I nearly always leave the virtual premises with a smile on my face and some new knowledge in my brain, which is the most positive and enlightened state I can imagine. Thanks Orac.
Happy Memorial Day, everyone. While I am unable to visit my father's grave in Arlington today, I plan to take my family to the local cemetery to honor the veterans interred there. If any readers here *do* happen to go to Arlington, kindly give Colonel RK Barber a wave for me.
Orac,
Here's some positive energy for you: Thanks for the tireless fight against the nonsense. I've learned a ton of stuff here.
As for the true purpose of the holiday, yes, let us honor our war dead, but let us endeavour to apply reason, not emotion and superstition, to future disputes so we do not needlessly add to the rolls of our honored dead.
Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom. This is as true for science as it is for politics and diplomacy.
I've sent you some positive energy via a crystal. If you could please let me know when/if you received it. If you don't, I can re-send.
- and don't throw away that crystal after you've used it! You can pick up a nice bit of change if you take it to the crystal-return depot.
That's the pharma shill gambit (argument from motive), the golden mean fallacy, the "you're too negative!" canard, and the argument from assertion, all rolled into one.
I love the way the writer -- and all woo-ists -- slide easily from "positive energy" to "negative rantings," as if happy, nice feelings were a physical force, and thus you can blur physics with pop psychology, because really, they're all talking about the same thing. Energy is energy; positive is positive; and negative is negative.
Dark matter must be brooding about something, which is why we ask "what's the matter?" Dark energy is lively and alert, but wicked.
Ok, redpepper spambot is creepy.
Sastra, I know--it's all so very Dr. Emoto. Like much of this fashionable nonsense, I find the notion that emotions can influence *matter* to be exceedingly disturbing, contra the comforting, happy light in which it is so often cast.
Translation: Stop harshing my mellow.
"Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom. This is as true for science as it is for politics and diplomacy."
I find this statement ironic. The very nature of forced mass vaccination will require a totalitarian regime. The other method is propaganda.
Try True Cures http://truecures.com , Mr Flowers claims it's exactly like AltMed with the exception being his really works.
On his Q&A page he explains the AltMed is just placebo because AltMed is actually controlled by the same people as Big Pharma and actually curing people is against the law.
or,
I myself was fascinated by his page on antiprespirant where he explains the lymph nodes in the upper torso are your bodies primary filtration system and excrete toxins filtered from your blood via your armpits. By blocking sweat in your pits you can die from toxic buildup.
MESSAGE BEGINS:
Shills and Minions,
I hope that you are all enjoying the fruits of your evil labours done in the name of total planetary dominion. We have come down from PharmaCOM Orbital HQ and the holiday picnic is in full tilt. It does my hearts good to see all of you frolicking in your festive, warm blooded way.
We have seamlessly blended in with the celebrating humans in an average park in someplace called "Santa Rosa" (They think we are a "Telecom" company). This place is far too cold for the likes of us, but enduring it shall be worth it in the end, morale is so important when clearing a planet. The downside it that this shape-shifting will make me all itchy and mean a few hours in the vats when we get back up to orbit.
Once again, kudos to the indispensable Cindy for arranging all the crepe paper and balloons and to Dangerous Bacon for providing his famous bacon, bacon, bacon and bacon casserole (the hatchlings just can't get enough of it and it keeps them from getting into mischiefâlike eating the locals). Apologies to Gregarious Misanthrope, the hatchlings truly loved your clown act, really, I don't know what gets into them sometimes. I hope that heals swiftly.
Well, I shall have to sign off for now. Lady Astra is kicking serious human ass in the three-legged race and I must cheer her on. Yes, it's all merriment and hoopla for today, but remember my minions: to keep the tap of Reptilo-PharmaWealth⢠open, you must continue to "put out" as they say down here.
Tomorrow is another day, and though we have the rebels on the run (Chicago was a real blast), total PharmaCOM domination will not come easily. We must remain crafty, subversive and extra evil in the months ahead.
I am always watching loyal minions, always watching . . .
Lord Draconis Zeneca,
VC, iH7L PharmaCOM Orbital HQ
0010101101001
MESSAGE ENDS ----------------
"dominion"? Dominion?!?
Are you sure that your plan is just for dominion and not total world destruction?
If dominion is your only intention, then how do you explain this effort targeting women and breastfeeding?
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/breast-cancer-vaccine-bre…
If this proposed vaccine is effective, won't women who have been vaccinated against breast cancer become even more promiscuous, shed their upper clothing and start running around showing their breasts?
We all know what will happen then...a global spate of earthquakes!!
I have a lot of friends like that, just don't be so negative, mellow out, you surround yourself with negative energy. Blech. I feel really good when ripping something apart that is lying, or misleading. It is one good thing I can actually do.
Sauceress, here in Ontario women can already shed their upper clothing. Imagine how it will be after this vaccine! I bet there will be orgies in the street. Sadly it is not all wild fun here. I have yet to see a topless woman outside in real life.
"I have a lot of friends like that, just don't be so negative, mellow out, you surround yourself with negative energy. Blech. I feel really good when ripping something apart that is lying, or misleading. It is one good thing I can actually do."
Another tie that binds this "science" based cult: Negativity. I didn't know that science had to be so hostile and negative to get respectability. It doesn't. It's just more rationalizations for someone having a negative and destructive attitude.(I'm only negative because...)
It's more of a personal psychological issue than a scientific issue. Maybe it's an ego thing. Maybe it's a mommy/daddy issue. "Must get more education." "Must get more degrees." "That is the ticket to being important. I'll be somebody." "That is the ticket." "Must tear down ignorance so I'll be appreciated for my superiority and place in this world."
There are other lenses to view this world from you know? Your "evidence" view of life isn't the only way to live. To believe that is absolutist in nature and bigotry. That is not to say that real evidence isn't evidence and facts aren't facts. One can look at the same set of facts and draw different conclusion.
âScience is built up of facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house.â - Henri poincare
MESSAGE BEGINS
Really. Your obsession with your various monkey glands is simply mystifying to us. But then again, when a Glaxxon is in djx'thrint after breeding, the slightest glimpse of his/her mate's x*hach j'trch can be most stimulating. And if we're both the same sex at the time, well clear the decks and hide the hatchlings . . .
Lord Draconis Zeneca,
VC, iH7L PharmaCOM Orbital HQ
0010101101001
MESSAGE ENDS ----------------
I call shenanigans on Glaxo PharmaBase Orbital. Everyone knows that Draconis Zeneca works for the Lee Silsby Death Star and is right now showering the world with injectable B12.
I'd just like to recommend the deconstruction of "positive thought/energy/woohoo" that I recently read and enjoyed:
"Bright-Sided: How the Relentless Promotion of Positive Thinking Has Undermined America" by Barbara Ehrenreich
It's amazing the number of people who will tell you basically "lighten up and smile" as the greatest way to fix anything - unfortunately, both my parents and my pastors are regular positive-thought proselytizers. Personally, I'm a pessimist with a sarcastic sense of humor. And perfectly happy.
I'm with you all on the "positive thinking cures all" woo.
But let's not lose the baby with the bathwater. Emotions can indeed affect the body, and vice versa - and that's not mysterious at all. Brains are real and they do real measurable things. There are hormones released, heart rates adjusted, flows of blood altered etc in response to these brain states. Think panic attacks, depression, fear/flight reactions, stress etc. Changing your thinking will not cure cancer, but it can in limited cases and in specific ways help some specific disorders. For example, CBT plus drugs is better than drugs alone for depression.
Everyone seems to be getting lazy. It is not "positive energy". It is "positive QUANTUM energy".
Ok, this is a silly question but what does CBT mean? CBT means something filthy in my mind but I am guessing it is some sort of therapy.
Remember optimism gets in the way of productivity! See the proof!
@Travis
Cognitive Behavioural Therapy.
Lord Zeneca,
Completely my fault, sometimes clowns are scary to hatchlings. That you would take the time to inquire after me, and for a mere flesh wound (I wasn't using that appendage for anything, anyway), just thrills me to the marrow.
I'm sure after the salivary anti-coagulants run their course and the bleeding stops, we'll all be able to look back at this and laugh. Nervously.
Say, do the new hatchlings have salivary psychoactives as well? Things are starting to get a little trippy. Better lie down for a while.
Your humble Pharma shill,
augustine @ #14:
Where is exactly is this "forced massed vaccination" again? You seem to be having trouble citing examples again. Also, I find your comments rather funny in light of your dismissing herd immunity as a "minority objection" in the "Fun with anti-vaccination petitions" thread.
Fun with anti-vaccine petitions
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augustine @ #19:
An interesting perspective, that science which tries to make the word better and save lives is "negative". Want to know what is really negative, encouraging preventable deaths over your own ego.
What defines a "cult" BTW? A small group that tries to ignore facts and reality, that deliberately blinds them selves from contrary/uncomfortable information? That sounds just like you augie! Remember how in the other thread I proved that you weren't reading the links to the studies that you were asking for? Science on the other hand is open to new information, unlike your cult of denialism augie.
Your efforts at projection are rather amusing augustine.
Science is negative in the sense that it tried to eliminate the false/incorrect positions. Of course coming from a denialist (such as you augie) that insists on false ideas that would seem rather negative.
Oh goody! Augustine is projecting again! How cute. Pot meet kettle.
Yes because just making up crap, like you do augie is so much more fulfilling, isn't it? And who really cares about do things like saving lives when it's just "a minority objection", right? So tell us augie, exactly what verifiable conclusions or breakthroughs have been made by not looking at the evidence? What exactly have these other ways of looking at the world accomplished by ignoring evidence, and how do you know that they're correct?
True, if there is either insufficient information to draw a conclusion, or if one party (that would be you augie) refuses to be objective. Funny how you're making using the same line used by AGW denialists, Flat Earthers, AIDs denialists, and especially the Young Earth Creationists.
It must be rather annoying the way reality refuses to conform to your dogma, isn't it augie?
MESSAGE BEGINS
Misanthropic One. I have directed the older hatchlings to apologize for their overenthusiasm. With Cindy's steadfast guidance, they have fashioned you a charming, if somewhat crudely wrought "get well" card out of construction paper and g'shhtarck entrails. As for your "trip", it is a mild neurotoxic salivary side effect and should pass with your morning water. If it's any consolation, they said you tasted like cherry.
Please accept our apologies and a little something extra in your Swiss account.
Lord Draconis Zeneca,
VC, iH7L PharmaCOM Orbital HQ
0010101101001
MESSAGE ENDS ----------------
I spent a happy Monday morning explaining the placebo effect to a keen homeopathy user. Although I don't expect immediate results, I have hopes for this one. She didn't flounce off or attempt to bite my head off, for a startâ¦
zertec: "Where is exactly is this "forced massed vaccination" again? You seem to be having trouble citing examples again."
When anyone starts up on the "disease spreading should be prosecuted" gambit. That is just one example of the pro forced mass vaccination agenda. I see no one on here making a point against that. In fact many seem to agree with this position.
If you don't have a problem with people choosing if they don't want to vaccinate then there is no problem with this one is there?
zertec: "An interesting perspective, that science which tries to make the word better and save lives is "negative"."
Science is neither negative nor positive. It just is. Another example of your agenda to make the world better in your own eyes and hijacking science along the way. Is this a "freudian slip"?
Zertec: "Want to know what is really negative, encouraging preventable deaths over your own ego."
Another logical fallacy of since I'm personally against pro forced mass vaccination then I must be FOR death. logic fail.
What defines a "cult" BTW?
Since you asked:
The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law. (one word: ORAC)
The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society. (confessions have been documented on this blog.)
the group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members.(confessions are documented.)
The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. (the death of a few babies is OK because overall more babies are saved.)
The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members. (always concererned about lurkers. ie new recruits.)
The group is preoccupied with making money. (who make more money than pharma? Who has more lobbyist per elected official to make sure the money keeps coming that pharma? Who employees the most scientists in the entire world?)
Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members. (alienate others by calling them loons, wackos, crazies, etc,.,)
The most loyal members (the âtrue believersâ) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group. (there is no other view or philosophy of life. This is it. skeptic brand science or bust)
Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. (questioning the scientific status quo is pretty much out of question in this cult. Sure they may give lip service from time to time but if you look at where there time and effort is spent it's in maintaining the status quo.)
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tigger: "I spent a happy Monday morning explaining the placebo effect to a keen homeopathy user."
Conventional medicine loves to criticize the placebo effect but it fails to realize that it loves to embrace it during it's own results. You do know that conventional medicine is more privy to placebo than CAM right? Why wouldn't it? It has all of the luxuries such as authority and orthodoxy. Why would anyone believe in a quack over a studied technician and "proven" healer? Has NO ONE not warned them about the quack? Thereby cutting into the placebo effect of the quack? How can a quack get more placebo effect from a patient than a orthodoxy surgeon? Does not the patient believe in the doctor who say we must cut off your breasts?
@ Little Augie
The world is a magical, amazing world when viewed through the lens of science - why would I want to view it through a fairy tale?
"The world is a magical, amazing world when viewed through the lens of science - why would I want to view it through a fairy tale?"
It would be more akin to why does a democrat and republican look at the same facts differently.
chance geerhart: "The world is a magical
Is it not COMPLETELEY knowable through your scientific spectacles? Or is some of it "magical" or "mysterious"? Is some of it magical or is all of it magical. How certain are you? Do tell Chance.
another cult favorite, it's own lexicon. I especially love terms like woo, gambit, wacko, denialist, anti-vaxxers, cognitive dissonance, pot meet kettle, pharma shill, etc,. Where else would you hear these terms besides from the hijacked brand of science: skeptic brand science.
Feel free to use other terms that only the woo killers know. You know, kind of like you own little secret handshake.
augustine writes @ #14:
The question of if, when, and how it is appropriate for a democratically elected and constitutionally run government to exercise its powers in the public health sphere has been extensively written about, debated, and litigated over centuries in the U.S. and other nations, and guess what? Almost no one agrees with the position you state above.
(Though a fellow named Thomas Szasz did. What do you think, augustine? Do you agree with Szasz that people who are mentally ill, no matter how it affects their judgment or their level of dangerousness to themselves or others, have an absolute right to refuse treatment? Or do you think the government can exercise its power to give that decision to a family member, friend, or treating physician, at least until the mentally ill person is competent to decide? What about end-of-life decisions? Should family members ever have the authority to make such decisions on behalf of persons who, because unconscious or otherwise incompetent, cannot decide for themselves? Such authority would come from law, i.e., the government. So is it your position that if we live in a nation where I can tell a doctor not to take heroic measures to treat my father because that is what he indicated to me when he was conscious, we are necessarily living under a totalitarian regime? Have you bothered to think through the implications of what you are saying to this extent?)
@ 19 augustine,
Please continue, augustine. you are only negative because . . .
You criticize people for not accepting the fraud that is alternative medicine.
You claim that pointing out the dangers of alternative medicine is just negativity?
You think that it is acceptable to defraud people who are sick and vulnerable?
Where is that happy go lucky augustine that we have all grown to love?
Out trying to sell some alternative medicine based on the claim that it is just like science, only better, because it has augustine's magic sauce.
So, what's your excuse?
This is true.
However, it is the only honest way to live.
Bigotry?
Bigotry is a form of bias.
Science is about minimizing biases.
Bigotry is the antithesis of science.
One can look at the same set of facts and draw different conclusions. Some people do not understand what they are drawing conclusions about. This has no bearing on the facts. If the person drawing conclusions is irrational, even that person cannot be expected to draw intelligent conclusions.
That is correct. Science is about coming to the best possible conclusions, based on the best available information.
Alternative medicine doesn't require any understanding or truth. This is just unicorn medicine. Alternative medicine is just a collection of fairy tales. A collection of fairy tales is not a house, either.
Science is not a collection of facts. Science is a way of determining facts and a way of analyzing those facts.
@ everyone: I always suspected that augie had a deeply irrational streak. Now it finally seems to be coming out. Sorry about the SIWOTI, but it's just too much fun.
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augustine @ #32:
Oh so you admit that you have nothing then besides your own paranoia, and maybe a few people venting on the internet. Considering how you've yet to apologize for misrepresenting the words of others, I find it hard to take your accusations too seriously. Tell us have any actual signs of such proposals being seriously considered?
Do you have a way to insure that those that don't vaccinate can't harm others by infection? I noticed that you also still haven't provided any evidence (yes, I know that you don't seem to like evidence, judging by your prior post)that the risks of vaccination are worse than those of the diseases that they prevent. Still, waiting on that...
Yet you are the one referring to it being negative when it contradicts your unfounded dogma. Funny that. As for "hijacking" the only people attempting to do so are those that talk about "other lenses to view this world from" to justify unscientific and irrational positions. That would be you again. Your words, not mine. My describing science (in relation to vaccines) as positive is because unlike you I place a higher value on the lives of others. We're still waiting for your evidence that vaccination is unscientific. So far all you've offered is links to papers that you've quote mined.
As to a "freudian slip" I think that you seems to be confused on the term, please look it up.
Not a logic fail at at. First of all you're lying about what I just said..I said that you had no problem with the deaths of others due to your own ego. No where in any of my statements did I say that I was "pro-forced vaccination". That's at best a strawman, not to mention trying to put words in my mouth. You still can't stop lying about what others say can you augie? So now you own Todd W. and myself an apology for lying about what we've said.
Secondly, what I said was that you have is a callous disregard for the live of others. Additionally, you've been given evidence that vaccination saves lives, but you refuse to even bother to read it. Here are your own words from the other thread [emphasis added]...
Yeah, augie you're a real humanitarian there.
Strawman, try replacing "ORAC" with "evidence" that other word you don't like (and keep refusing to look at).
I'm sorry I thought that you were talking about the pro-vax side. Now you seem to be talking about the anti-vaxers. In fact this very position has been you position from your first post IIRC.
You mean like saying that "mommy instinct" trumps scientific evidence? No doubt you think that the best people to decide matters of science are those that have no knowledge of the subject?
Oh! You mean like Jenny McCarthy talking about bring back diseases, right? Or how about my favorite quote from you again augie? [emphasis added again]
Again you seem to be talking about the anti-vax groups. Pro-vax groups are mainly concerned about immunization rates, and anti-vaxers lying to people to scare them into the anti-vax "movement".
You still seem to be doing a lot of projecting. That's another psychology term that you should look up.
Hmmm...that's odd, the only people that initially bring up money when it comes to vaccination are the anti-vaxers. I also noticed that just on the other thread you still have had nothing to say about the "alt-med" community which makes tens of billions a year in the USA alone, and is the big money behind the anti-vax groups. Why are you so silent on that topic augie? Still projecting it seems.
And here kiddies we see the Genetic Fallacy in action again, favorite of the anti-vaxers. Still going back to that one even after having been called on it before, eh augie? After all if you have neither logic nor evidence on your side just go for the emotional argument, by pointing fingers and yelling "They have more money that you! Doesn't that make you mad?". Never mind that it has nothing to do with the facts of the matter, because after all augie tells us that there's more to life than "evidence".
Or maybe "pharma-shills", or your own terms like "totalitarian" (when the people your communicating with say that they aren't calling for forced vaccination) and "zombie", or your imaginary "hierarchies"? As to "loons, wackos, crazies" it seems at least somewhat appropriate when discussing people that deliberately take illogical (and often contradictory) positions and refuse to consider the evidence. Personally though I prefer the term "denialist" since it's more technically accurate.
Hmmm....Again you still seem to be describing anti-vaxers. But just in case that wasn't you intent have you yet come up with any compelling reason why we should all just give up on all of this "evidence and logic" stuff? I asked you to give some examples, but you haven't done so yet. I wonder why?
No...still projecting again augie. You see the cool thing about science is that it is open to change when there is compelling evidence to do so. You know "evidence" that stuff that you seem to have such a low regard for, never pay attention to when it contradicts your dogma (as you've already demonstrated repeatedly), and never seem to offer up yourself.
You see if you don't give us compelling evidence to change our position, then we have no reason to do so, but that can be changed by providing evidence.
You on the other hand demand evidence, and then refuse to read it if it contradicts you're dogma. Like I said earlier I've already proven in the other thread that's what you do.
That's the difference between you and the rest of us, not that I expect you to get it.
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augustine at #33:
Another lie, it's not that the placebo "effect" is criticized, it's that it serves as a "floor" so to speak for testing effectiveness.
Because the quack is better at telling the patient what they want to hear. Also some doctors just have crap for a bedside manner. It still has nothing to do with the actual efficacy of "alt-med" vs science based medicine. Perhaps you think that a patient likes being told that their breast will have to be removed?
Gee I can't understand why being told "Here drink this magic water and your cancer will just melt away!" could possible sound more appealing to a scared and desperate patient. But there will always be someone there to sell them the "magic water". Funny how the magic water salesman's profits are OK to the anti-vax crowd isn't it augie?
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augustine @ #35:
No...It would be more akin to those that rely on evidence and logic (the pro-science side) versus those that just make up whatever feels good and ignores the evidence and logic (the pro-woo side, that would apparently be you augie).
augustine @ #36: He/She was just rambling and incoherent. Never mind.
augustine @ #37:
Interesting...as augie get increasingly incoherent his/her projection seems to be confusing terms from the pro-science side with the anti-vax side. Very amusing.
So basically you're now all but admitting that your position has no credible evidence then?
I'll tell you what augie...when you can come up with a science that doesn't rely on evidence and logic, and can produce demonstrable results....Then by all means please feel free to let us know. Don't fret though we won't be holding our collective breaths.
It would be more akin to those that rely on evidence and logic (the pro-science side) versus those that just make up whatever feels good and ignores the evidence and logic (the pro-woo side, that would apparently be you augie).
Augustine says:
Once again, augustine demonstrates that he has a rather limited knowledge of totalitarian régimes. And he makes this demonstration on a day commemorating American war dead, many of whom died fighting actual totalitarian régimes.
Stay classy, augustine. Stay classy.
Another gem from augustine:
Augustine, kindly demonstrate:
- that this position is more than a mere opinion held by some commenters here
- that in fact there is activity to attempt to write it into law.
Please provide evidence, not merely unsubstantiated assertion.
Indeed, if the system of rights to person/property were complete, you or I would be able to claim compensation from people who infected us with diseases. This not being the case, we have to rely on people getting vaccinated instead.
I should also add: you already suffer a very large number of restrictions to your freedom of action as a resident of (I presume) the United States, some of which are more onerous than compulsory vaccination. Since the United States can in no way presently be described as totalitarian, the addition of a compulsory vaccination system is very unlikely to make it so.
I never said the United States IS a totalitarian regime. I said it will take a totalitarian regime to enforce scienceblogs agenda forced mass vaccination. It simply will not happen any other way.
Take your conclusions to their logical end.
I think augustine has been watching the Torchwood 'Children of Earth' mini-series on re-runs and it's obviously driven him batty. It's all obviously an evil plot by aliens to enslave our children by pretending to give them a much needed vaccine when really it's just to round them all up and kidnap them for nefarious soul-sucking purposes!
Glaxo PharmaBase Orbital may not own up to it, but Torchwood is totally watching you, buddy!
"I'm surprised you didn't use the dreaded pharma shill gambit."
I've been troubled by the cutbacks in the Dental Plan offered in us contractors working for Evil Conspiracy(tm) Support Ltd. Even Lord Draconis Zeneca is going with the lowest bidder in his Evil Plans(tm).
I'm going to have to moonlight on the Gnomes of Zurich contract to pay for the kid's orthodontics if this goes on.
augustine writes:
Mass vaccination, with very limited exceptions, is governmentally enforced in many jurisdictions in the United States through such measures as requiring that children have immunizations prior to being allowed to attend school.
There are other public health measures that severely limit personal freedoms that are enforced almost uniformly throughout the United States, such as quarantines. The federal government has the power to enforce quarantines on a nationwide basis should a nationwide disease outbreak call for such measures. So does the United States have a totalitarian regime?
composer99: We can claim compensation from people who infect us with diseases. The problem is not the legal system, but providing adequate proof of intent/recklessness/negligence and causation in a given case.
Augustine @43:
Once again, unsubstantiated assertion by augustine with no evidentiary back-up.
Augustine's claims appear to be two-fold:
- First, that implementation of a totalitarian form of government would be required to organize and undertake a compulsory mass vaccination system;
- Second, that this is a policy aim of this blog (indeed, of ScienceBlogs as a whole).
Refuting Claim 1
Perhaps augustine is familiar with the domestic political, social, and economical undertakings of the United States during the Second World War (although I doubt it).
Massive alterations to the prior peacetime political, social, and economic arrangements were made, usually in favour of increased state intervention and increased executive power, due to the demands of the war effort.
However, the resulting set of arrangements could not honestly be described as totalitarian, especially when viewed in comparison with the actual totalitarian belligerents.
Unless augustine is prepared to assert (and satisfactorily defend said assertion) that a compulsory vaccination programme would equal or exceed, in its scope, the aggregate set of domestic adjustments made in wartime America, then augustine's claim that a totalitarian régime is a necessary precondition for such a programme can be dismissed as ridiculous.
Indeed, augustine's entire argument is undermined by the plain fact that, but for the recent renewed popularity of the anti-vaccination movement, the status quo vaccination policy would be entirely adequate to maintain acceptable levels of immunization in the United States.
Refuting Claim 2
Since augustine, in making this claim, provides no evidentiary support, there is no reason to accept it.
Some commenters may have expressed desires that a compulsory vaccination programme be implemented, although this can not be construed as a policy end of this blog or ScienceBlogs in general, save via blatant misrepresentation.
It is just as likely, however, given the evidence provided by augustine (none) that augustine simply made that accusation up.
Jud @46:
Thank you for the clarification/correction.
We have forced not-throwing-people-out-of-windows. Does that require a totalitarian regime?
Hey, when you can't argue the evidence, the best bet is to accuse a loosely organized group of commentors who do not post exclusively on one blog and who often engage in internal debate and discussion of being a cult! Sure, you have to make extremely tenuous connections to a possibly made up definition of the word while stretching the definitions of most of the involved terminology to their breaking points, but it beats research! Oh, also don't forget to reveal your own ignorance by refering to extremely common terminology like "cognitive dissonance" and "pot calling the kettle black" as exclusionary jargon.
Sending POSITIVE ENERGY YOUR WAY!
http://earbudz.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/rainbow-unicorn.jpg
augustine, augustine...still lying.
I noticed that you've still failed to offer any evidence, to apologize for lying about what others have said, orprovide any justifications of your position.
Case in point...
Care to point out where exactly this "agenda" is spelled out? Have a source other than the voices in your head, or your "other lenses to view this world from"?
Already done, the logical conclusion is that you are a lying, deceitful, manipulative dogmatist with little concern for the lives and well being of others that likes to play word games, but refuses to be open to contrary evidence even when you are the one requesting it.
I asked you a few days ago in the other thread, but you never answered it...
What exactly do you hope to accomplish here? You won't convince convince anyone here with just word games, and no evidence, everyone here already knows that you've been lying and not admitting it even when caught. We also know that you're not here to learn, we know that you aren't reading evidence that conflicts with your dogma.
The only thing you've accomplished so far is making yourself, and by extension the anti-vax movement, look bad.
Zetetic,
So stop feeding it.
"Take your conclusions to their logical end."
You're a freaking idiot?
@Zertec's entire post #40:
what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
"Some commenters may have expressed desires that a compulsory vaccination programme be implemented, although this can not be construed as a policy end of this blog or ScienceBlogs in general, save via blatant misrepresentation."
Fair enough. Let's take a poll to put your rhetoric to a test.
How many people on this blog have tolerance for people who chose to not vaccinate? There is a LOT of vaccination discussion on here. I'm sure it's unbiased, objective, and fair. If you don't believe it's the individuals choice then whose choice is it? The states choice? How is that enforced. I'm going to hedge my bet that your "some commentors" quote is disingenuous.
Totalitarianism: It attempts to control virtually all aspects of the social life including economy, education, art, science, private life and morals of citizens.
BTW I'm not scared of chickenpox and no amount of scientific hocus pocus and statistical wizardry will make me afraid and seek security in the form a syringe and it's contents. Only fear can sell vaccines. No amount of information or education will work unless it involves fear.
Travis, while I'm not equipped to fully evaluate it, I suspect the other CBT might have profound effects on one's mental state. But that's physical->mental and I was discussing the other direction :)
My Dear Lord Draconis:Still basking in the glory of my "win" at Mixed-Doubles Tennis/Human Division!My partner,Mr.G.,is similarly pleased and will display the trophy in his rather Baroque office at Treasury.I must say,after watching Mixed-Doubles Tennis/Glaxon Division,when you ..er,"people" say "mixed doubles" you *really* mean _mixed_ "doubles"!*Interesting* manner of service,but *Chacun a son gout*!But I digress:I again thank you *so very much* for your thoughtful "contribution" and the lovely shoes.Most sincerely yours and eternally grateful,DW
Cath, hehe.
But I think it also has some mental->physical aspects as well. I know that when I think about it there are some distinctly negative influences on some parts of my body. And I know some people who have a rather different reaction to thinking about it.
MESSAGE BEGINS
Minion DW, as the older hatchlings would say, your "mad skills" with a racquet did not go unnoticed. Since we are all back on the clock would you please don your new Manolos and prepare for a new mission?
I shall dispatch Obsidian 3 to fetch you. The culling team can use your quick reflexes to help us nab this Augustine creature. It's clearly on to our eeeeevil plans and besides, it's just getting plain dreary at this point. "Ooooh! Look at me! I ain't a-skeerd a no chickenpox! Science is so mean and I hate it! Waaaaah!" Really, even the hatchlings after a case of your "RedBull" are less grating. Now be careful, we wish you to capture it alive for transport to Orbital where the techs will prepare it for download and implanting. Chickenpox . . . heh.
I assure you that helping to secure a new practice drone for PharmaForce 7 will be an "enriching" experience. Last year's Range Rover must be getting a bit tatty by now . . .
Yours in scientifically-proven, Big Pharma evilness . . .
Lord Draconis Zeneca,
VC, iH7L PharmaCOM Orbital HQ
0010101101001
MESSAGE ENDS ----------------
Huh? What's your God got to do with any of it?
Oh well.
@Zertec's entire post #40:
I award 10/10 points, and seeing as one's god is now somehow relevant to the debate, may the FSM reserve you the best of seats, right next to the beer (or beverage of choice) volcano and stripper dressing rooms for eternity.
Ease up, Sauceress, it's a Billy Madison quote.
Appropriate, wouldn't you say, since he needs to be taken back to school.
@ The Gregarious Misaugathrope:
Respectfully I think you misunderstand. I'm expressing amusement, not frustration. I find augie's ridiculous antics to be highly amusing. Plus as augie's responses get more irrational and dishonest it's only helping to make the anti-vaxers look worse.
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@ augustine #55:
So in other words... You don't have a rational response, just like in the other thread. ;-)
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@ Sauceress:
Thank you.
This negative energy just makes me stronger, we will not retreat, this [science] is unstoppable!
I freely admit I have no tolerance for people who choose not to vaccinate. Here's why:
They put other vulnerable people at risk of contracting the diseases they've chosen to ignore.
They choose to remain ignorant and deluded.
They exaggerate and outright lie about vaccines, diseases and the motives and morals of the vaccine providers.
They are endangering their children's health.
You bet your ass I'm intolerant. If that makes me a bigot, I will wear that label proudly.
"How many people on this blog have tolerance for people who chose to not vaccinate?"
Well, that really depends on how someone defines "tolerance" doesn't it?
Personally, I've been down the anti-vacc rabbit hole and back again, so I tend to keep that at the fore-front of my mind when talking to an anti-vaccer now - it's very easy to be misled. I'm certainly not "zero-tolerance", so I guess I am somewhat tolerant, but only a little.
I personally believe that educating the public more on vaccines and making them mandatory for public school attendence is all we really need, barring massive outbreaks of vaccine preventable diseases. Not that I have any great ideas on how to reach the public and teach them, but I think it is a worthy goal. I think "philosophical" exemptions should be done away with, and I'm still iffy on the religious exemptions. Making vaccines actually mandatory (as in, punishable by law or something) still makes me uncomfortable and I don't think I could support that with the current state of things. Again, if massive outbreaks were to make a comeback, I would be much more willing to support such a policy.
I do know when I have children I will be much more of a stickler about vaccinating and I will do my best to keep my children away from pockets of unvaccinated individuals.
I'm totally tolerant of people not vaccinating their children.
So long as they have a legitimate medical reason not to do so. You know, evidence that has been cited by actual doctors.
Short of that, no, you don't really have the right to endanger my childrens' health and well-being. Particularly not when the only adverse reaction you and well over 99% of the rest of us will get by helping my babies, is getting an owie on your arm. Particularly not when you embrace the lie just to avoid getting a teeny tiny little pin-prick that would almost certainly protect you, my babies, and everyone else.
I'm kind of a mean Mommy Bear when it comes to people hurting my babies. That's when the teeth come out and I start to growl. If your idiocy only affected you, I'd say, Go to it. What do I care about you? You're just an annoying little troll. But your idiocy has the potential to adversely affect the people I love most in this world. And you don't have that right.
mayidijo: "So long as they have a legitimate medical reason not to do so. You know, evidence that has been cited by actual doctors."
So you're totally NOT tolerant? Why would you say you were? That's dishonest.
May I just say, as an actual Pharma Shill who does indeed work for The Man (specifically, a short bald one with horrid taste in pink ties), I look forward to the missives from Lord Draconis Zeneca and they truly brighten up my day. You are a master, sir.
I also wish you the best of luck assimilating the Scientologist from Inverness. I hope he tastes better to the hatchlings than he did to his secretary...
MESSAGE BEGINS
Minion Blue,
As soon as we discovered that it was a Hubbardite, we immediately prepared it for extradition to Marcab 7. Xenu shall deal with it. And speaking of Xenu, he is, of course, misrepresented by those tedious loons in Clearwater. Lady Astra and I have enjoyed many a weekend with Xenu and his partner Todd at their stunning villa on the Gortokk coast.
Of course we try to schedule our visits after a breeding cycle so that Astra and I are both the same sex. Poor'Mu (as his near and dear call him) was made to feel absolutely terrible about his sexuality by the priggish old guard on Helatrobus back befor the First Glaxxon Empire war. That, and any chance to get a way from the screeching of our hatchlings!
But I digress, 'Mu's eeeeeevil Psych Army⢠is indispensable in our plans to enslave the Earth for our own nefarious purposes and quite frankly, those Scientologists are the only hope for planetary salvation, so they simply must be stopped.
Do keep up the good work agent Blue, and enjoy your ill-gotten gain! And don't worry about Pinky, he's a bit of a martinet, but he won't bite . . . much.
Lord Draconis Zeneca,
VC, iH7L PharmaCOM Orbital HQ
0010101101001
MESSAGE ENDS ----------------
One of the members posted information from my website and I like some of the comments I have read here. I am trying to get some discussion going on what I do with True Cures and how it may relate to quantum physics but I find that quantum physicist are much the same as "real" scientist and mostly unwilling to investigate cures that are not popular or mainstream.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Controlling-Quantum-Entanglement
I started this article in hopes of attracting quantum science versed people to help me explain how the human immune system can be controlled. If there are any people here who are not threatened by cures which require no products I would love to have cures through True Cures explained scientifically. If I don't figure out how to subscribe to this blog I may miss any comments so please feel free to contact me through my website or hubpage from the link above.
Cheers
From Spammer David Flowers link:
plus more!...
... and it continues...
And there folks is full proof that Hulda Clark is not dead! She has come back as a man who was an EMT/firefighter, and with improved quantum physics woo!
Looks like it's time to shut down another thread, given that a comment spammin' David Flowers has moved in.