Jenny McCarthy plans to ring in 2012 with antivaccine propaganda on Dick Clark's Rockin' New Year's Eve

Here we go again.

In fact, I think I'm starting to see a pattern here among antivaccine organizations. You might remember that in November 2010, the antivaccine group SafeMinds bought ad space in AMC Theaters over the Thanksgiving holiday weekend, one of the heaviest moviegoing time periods of the year. This use of pre-movie time to promote antivaccine propaganda resulted in a campaign by skeptics to try to persuade AMC to see the error of its ways, a campaign that was successful.

Then, a few months later, the the grande dame of the antivaccine movement, arguably the woman who started the most recent incarnation of that hoary old anti-science movement back in the 1980s, Barbara Loe Fisher, decided to start advertising the antivaccine message she promotes through her group, the Orwellian-named National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) using the JumboTron in Times Square. Unfortunately, despite protests from the American Academy of Pediatrics, promoters of science-based medicine, and skeptics, the ads apparently aired for the full buy.

Then, a few months later (just last month, in fact), somehow the NVIC managed to dupe Delta Airlines, through its video provider In-Flight Media into airing a more subtle "public service announcement" whose antivaccine message was cleverly muted so that it wasn't so obvious, except to those of us who knew the NVIC (and, of course, the buzzwords used by the antivaccine movement) that its message was antivaccine. Of course, it also didn't help that the PSA urged viewers to go to the NVIC website, which, as I've described many times before, is a font of misinformation, pseudoscience, and antivaccine propaganda. (Just type "NVIC" into this blog's search box to see.) At least Fisher's response of crying "repression" in response to the AAP's complaint to Delta Air Lines was good for a chuckle or two. Unfortunately, the NVIC advertorials aired through the entire buy. Meanwhile, this fall a major dump of antivaccine propaganda was circulating around the country in various film festivals in the form of an antivaccine propaganda movie called The Greater Good, whose manipulativeness and misinformation would make a North Korean propagandists planning state media coverage of Kim Jong-il's funeral blush.

Now, it would appear, the NVIC wants to close out 2011 and ring in 2012 with a new round of antivaccine propaganda, this time revisiting Times Square at the heart of the New Years Eve celebration, an effort it's trumpeting through a press release entitled National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) Educates One Million Plus in Times Square on New Year's Eve. Here, Barbara, I'll fix that for you. It should read "National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) Mis-Educates One Million Plus in Times Square on New Year's Eve."

There, that's better.

Interestingly, the ad is not airing on the JumboTron (perhaps CBS turned the NVIC down). This time, it's airing on the TSQdigital display right by the TKTS Broadway Ticket Booth. But what, exactly, is the NVIC airing? Well, here's the description from the press release:

The non-profit National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) is sponsoring a vaccine education message during the New Year's Eve celebration in Times Square on the 5,000 square-foot TSQ Digital screen at 47th St. and 7th Avenue in New York City. The 15-second ad, which encourages informed decision-making, has been shown on the megatron twice an hour for 21 hours a day since Dec. 16, 2011.

"Everyone has the right to know about the benefits and risks of products and choose the kind of preventive health care they want for themselves and their children."

"In 2012, NVIC will mark our 30th year of public education and consumer empowerment," said NVIC co-founder and president Barbara Loe Fisher. "With so many health care options available today, becoming an educated health care consumer is essential and our pro-informed consent message will be seen by millions on New Year's Eve."

The full-color LED screen on which NVIC's ad is appearing is located near the Times Square Information Center in the heart of the Broadway district and is one of the largest digital display screens in the Times Square area. An estimated one million people pack the Times Square area during New Year's Eve and the celebration is viewed on television by billions of people around the world.

NVIC co-sponsored a similar vaccine education message with Mercola.com last spring on another display in Times Square. During November, NVIC sponsored a flu prevention video on Delta Air Line's in-flight programming that encouraged consumers to become informed about how to stay well during the flu season and all year-around.

"Knowledge is the key to informed consumer decision-making," said Fisher. "Everyone has the right to know about the benefits and risks of products and choose the kind of preventive health care they want for themselves and their children."

As I said, NVIC has the Orwellian language down pat. It wraps up its antivaccine message in a cloak of "informed consent" and "educating the consumer," and who could argue with that? Of course, it all comes down to what specifically is meant by "informed consent" and "educating the consumer." As I described in detail, when an antivaccine propagandist like Barbara Loe Fisher refers to "informed consent," what she is really referring to is "misinformed consent," in which consumers are subjected to misinformation about vaccines that vastly overestimates the risks and vastly downplays the benefits or try to cast the benefits in a manner that makes them seem inconsequential, sometimes in hilariously stupid ways. Often, antivaccine activists use even more hilariously bad science to bolster their misinformed arguments. Or the bad science would be hilarious if the consequences of its use weren't so potentially deadly.

Anyway, let's look at the video:

It would appear that the NVIC has--shall we say?--simplified its message for Times Square. Basically, the video consists of a picture of a mother holding a baby (which is a favorite image of the antivaccine movement, of course) with the NVIC logo and website URL in the lower left hand corner. It then flashes the words "Vaccines: Know the risks" followed by "Vaccination: Your Health. Your Family. Your Choice," the latter superimposed over a graphic of the Statue of Liberty.

Subtle, isn't it?

Those not familiar with the NVIC would ask: What on earth is wrong with this message? Don't you want parents to know the risks of vaccination? Don't you think that personal freedom is important? Let's go back to the concept of misinformed consent. If you know, as I do, that the NVIC website is a cesspit of pseudoscience, fear mongering, and misinformation about vaccines (again, type "NVIC" into the search box of this blog for examples), then this video starts to look a lot less benign. The reason, of course, is that it's not the purpose of the NVIC to provide parents with an evidence- and science-based assessment of vaccine risks and benefits. The purpose of the NVIC is to scare parents into not vaccinating.

Barbara Loe Fisher will strenuously deny that she is antivaccine and claim that she is pro-vaccine safety. There might, in fact, have been a time when this might arguably have been true, but Fisher long ago passed from being a vaccine safety activist into the realm of antivaccine nuttery, as her website demonstrates so strongly. I think it would be really interesting one day to ask Fisher a simple question: "If you're not 'antivaccine,' then please tell us which vaccines you consider safe and effective. Which vaccines should be on the pediatric vaccine schedule?" I've yet to find a statement by Fisher in the last decade supporting the use of any vaccine. Of course, Fisher, being the seasoned PR flack for the antivaccine movement that she's become over the last 30 years, probably has a pat answer to that question that hides her antivaccine agenda, at least to the unknowing. It's still a good question to ask any antivaccine activist very insistently. The answer often reveals much. In fact, if you want to see an example of this very technique in action, check out the comments after this post on the anti vaccine propaganda blog Age of Autism in which a commenter asks Jake Crosby which vaccine(s) he finds acceptable. John Stone responds with some blather about "parental choice" (completely dodging the question) and Jake responds thusly:

No, I don't "care to explain." I don't have to explain anything. The people who are anti-vaccine are the people who say they are anti-vaccine - not the people who say vaccines cause autism - although I am sure the latter understandably includes some of the former.

Brilliant reply, Jake! Ya think? Barbara Loe Fisher is, of course, less clumsy at dancing around difficult questions than the Boy Wonder of the antivaccine movement. Unfortunately, he'll no doubt get better with practice. He is, after all, very young and inexperienced in propaganda, and it shows. In any case, the purpose of this Times Square ad is clearly to get people to go to the NVIC website and drink of the antivaccine crazy therein, and it's apparently been airing for nearly two weeks. It will be airing on New Years Eve.

And Jenny McCarthy will be promoting it on Dick Clark's Rockin' New Year's Eve. At least, she plans to try.

Take a look at the the Facebook page of the propaganda arm of the antivaccine group Generation Rescue (screenshot sent to me by a reader):

i-4dcc2fd888ca6e3fa3021520a1815791-aoa-thumb-480x351-71626.jpg

Yes, that's Jenny McCarthy promising to try to mention the NVIC ad on Dick Clark's New Year's Rockin' Eve. So much for my wondering if she had faded away from direct involvement with the antivaccine group Generation Rescue. Of course, the yearly New Year's Eve special on ABC is intended to be pure fluff, entertainment and nothing more. If Jenny actually does mention the NVIC ad on air, it would be quite jarring and out of sync with the rest of the show. My guess is that the producers would probably not approve. Perhaps a brief heads-up is in order at the ABC contact page.

Maybe they should get a copy of that screenshot, along with an explanation as to why the NVIC's message is harmful.

As usual, Elyse Anders has other suggestions as well. First, there's a Change.org petition. And then there are these suggestions:

Tweet @DisneyChannelPR using #ABCsSickNYE. You can copy/paste one of these or write your own:

I resolve to end deadly anti-vaccine propaganda. @DisneyChannelPR Pull NVIC's anti-vax Times Square ad http://wp.me/pbblq-6RR #ABCsSickNYE

Whooping cough is on the rise thanks to things like NVIC advertising on @DisneyChannelPR screens in NYC. #ABCsSickNYE http://bit.ly/rXLHOd

Don't forget to tell them what you'll be doing instead of tuning into ABC for Dick Clark's New Year's Rockin' Eve featuring the NVIC ad in the background. (And starring Jenny McCarthy... for real.)

Sounds like a plan to me.

More like this

There are about 55 million baby killers out of jail right now. There are known as abortionists. That is in the US alone. What is homophobic? Is that the fear of homo sapiens? That is a bad phobia to have.

By Communique (not verified) on 05 Jan 2012 #permalink

Abortion is the act of killing unborn children - murder.

I'll watch the "republican" debate, but I guaruntee that there will be fewer clowns there than the infanticide loving, pagan global warming earth worshipping, homersexual/sodomite endorsing marxist communism freaks that at any given democrat party debate.

The republicans may be constituted as a "circus" in your book. That's ok, Mrs. SS nazi baby killer. Liberals, through abortion, have killed more babies than every war combined that has ever been fought since war was invented.

As for "yer mama", you must have been a butthole baby. Your mother almost flushed you down the toilet until she realized you had eyes. Turd.

Narad- I heard about your problems with flies and gnats and I must tell you a secret. oregano oil is a decent insect repellant, but if you just pull down your underwear and let the flies linger and around your butthole, that will keep them out of you face. No it is not dark in my closet. I have an incandescent light in there. Now go see your colonoscopist and let inspect your uvula for defects.

Chris - vaccines do cause some harm. it is not natural to alter the structure of our DNA on purpose with viruses. I do not think murdering children is appropriate. That is why I am anti-infanticide.

By Communique (not verified) on 05 Jan 2012 #permalink

Given "science" mom's pro-mercury killer vaccine preoccupation, one wonders the basis for her fear of herbs. As much of a 'credit' as she is to the vaccine slurper loons, her misogynistic screeds and his use of multiple use of child abuse by vaccine should earn her the award for silliest and most dangerous nerd, for what it is worth.

No narad, not Mississippi, san fransicko. Now go kill some flies.

By Communique (not verified) on 05 Jan 2012 #permalink

Suit your self. I shall now exclusively address you with your surname and call, Narad Lord of the Flies, NARAD5BUMHOLE. enjoy. Oh, and KESBUMP is not how to call anyone. It is not even a legitimate phone number.

What is a KESBUMP? As Robin Hood, so you say, I shall now fling my little arrow at you.

Narad, do you have a facecrook page? Wanna be my fiend? Howsabout you letting a bumblebee fly up your bumhole and sting your uvula on the way out?

Narad Rampersad attracks flies and gnats. Possible the title of an upcoming post on my facecrook page. That should get you some attention. Maybe I'll twister it too. Narad, are you Canadian?

By Communique (not verified) on 05 Jan 2012 #permalink

what is a kesbump? Narad Rampersad the canadian have you mistaken your underwear for your turban again?

lilady just ask narad for his kesbump. I am sure one of his imaginary friends will assist you in the art of be homophobic, that is, being afraid of homo sapians, especially homo sapians with a kesbump.

By Summonite (not verified) on 06 Jan 2012 #permalink

Narad the kesbump Canadian.

You're a geniune tribute to Canadia. I presume the sodium flouride to water ratio there is still pretty high? Say 85%? Ho else could you explain the daily draining of brain cells?

Don't be homophobic narad. Homo sapians are people too. A little joke in your profession: How are homersexuals intertwined into archaeology? Answer - archaeologists always find homo erectus right next to homo eroticus.

Everyone stay clear from narad the canadian. He has contaious conjuctivitus of the bumhole. It's like pink eye except much lower.

tomorrow is a new day. methinks I might call forth re-enforcements from my facecrook page to hanle mr canadian narad here.

It all looks fine to me. Renders just fine for me on Safari, too. The links in the first few paragraphs all work correctly, too.

Looks fine on the webpage but is mangled in Google Reader, for some reason.

Jenny McC: Indigo Idiot.

Jake's responses may be clumsy now and for a while to come but I think he will (and strives to) become the future of the antivax movement. What a waste of a life.

Orac - thanks for the mention of my attempt to get some kind of response from the AoA crowd about "acceptable" vaccines. I realized from the beginning it would most likely be an exercise in futility, but Jake did make the statement that he isn't "anti-vaccine," so he should be able to come up with at least one that he's for (and I even gave them a cheap out by mentioning rabies & tetanus, but no takers).

Jenny McCarthy? Jenny McCarthy?
Is that the best ABC could get? A C-list celebrity whose claim to fame is being an ex-Playboy bunny and an anti-vaccine wackaloon?
More seriously, given her background, is this really who ABC/Disney wants to (co-)host their New Year's Eve special?

By Cynical Pediatrician (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

I am interested to know why it is acceptable for America to sit through a half hour NBC Nightly News program (or any main stream media channel for that matter) and be bombarded with direct to consumer marketing ads which spew pharmaceutical drugs such as Celebrex, Chantix, Celexa, Cymbalta, Lunesta,etc. (all in one show) while listing all their side effects---Yet NVIC airs an ad regarding informed choice for parents and automatically their "purpose of this Times Square ad is clearly to get people to go to the NVIC website and drink of the antivaccine crazy therein." Would it be better for NVIC to just go ahead and list the side effects of vaccines right there on the ad like pharmaceutical companies do when marketing drugs on television? Why shouldn't parents have the right to know the side effects of vaccines, even if they are considered rare by the AAP and CDC?
I guess my question is: Why is it called "informed consent" when pharmaceutical companies do it, but it's called "fear-mongering" or "misinformed consent" when it comes to vaccination? Maybe pharmaceutical companies should air side effects and safety information on vaccination when promoting vaccines like they do for all other drugs? Then NVIC wouldn't have to and this discussion would be nil.
Are the packet inserts that come with the vaccines considered "informed consent or fear-mongering" in your mind?
My questions are indeed sincere.

After AJW was struck-off, invitations to mainstream television shows became few and far between: now anti-vaxxers need to *pay* for air-time in planes, theatres, and outdoor venues. I wonder how this devolution will continue.

re Lawrence: I find it hilarious that, in a post where Jake complains about being *thrown out* of the discussion by Evil Vaccine Propagandists, AoA then proceeds to throw out Lawrence's attempt to question the party-line. Don't they *see* this _at all_? -btw- I love it!

Ridiculously, alt med proselytisers attempt to ride upon the coat-tails of the anti-corporate movement: Occupy Pharma! And while this might appeal to liberal types they simultaneously cast out libertarian bait by harping on health freedom. Giving new meaning to the expression "talking out of both sides of their mouths".

This saga about the advertisement of nonsense provides merriment in a week that otherwise would be frustrating as I do my year's end clean-up of financial data ( you don't want to know) and write up my summary. At least I have something to laugh about.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

@Lisa

If the NVIC were honest, they would direct people to the CDC or AAP web sites, rather than their own, which, as already mentioned, is full of subtle and not-so-subtle pseudoscience and misinformation.

It's everyone's fault, really. If society provided better career options for former nude models, they wouldn't have to turn to a life of pseudoscience. Poor Jenny McCarthy wouldn't have to whore out her brain to quackery-associated corrupt organizations like Generation Rescue (sadly, there is no QuACO act). Ron Jeremy wouldn't have to turn to a life of hawking fake penis pills. And god help us all if Dr Oz's career travels in the other direction.

By ConspicuousCarl (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

@MikeMa - You just have to cut Jake some slack. After all, his mother had amalgam fillings which, naturally, made him autistic and thus, incapable of rational thought processes! ;-)

@ Lisa: Haven't you heard...that nightly news is a commercial television outlet and is full of non-news items including commercials for OTC and direct-to-consumers drug ads? Easy way "around" this on commercial TV is to record your commercial TV programs...then "zap" all the ads.

When were you last given an immunization...and why didn't you read the VIS (Vaccine Information Sheet) that is provided before you consent to the vaccine? You can also read and print current VISs from the CDC website.

"My questions are indeed sincere".

@ lisa:

As Todd W. says, they dishonestly manipulate information while leading you away from more realistic sources. Here is another recent example: a well-known alt med provider presents 3 "orthodox physicians" discussing vaccine risks**. However, Drs Banks, Humphries, and Tenpenny are known for their extremely *un*-orthodox views ( Banks is an HIV/AIDS denialist, the others are faves of the anti-vaccine movement). The women speak about risk of death and ill effects ( autism, ADHD, kidney problems,etc) from diverse vaccines, citing studies and physiological "explanations" all far from the consensus by SBM.

Now if you only heard the broadcast, you'd be told that the host is a world-renowned researcher/ scientist in public health and that the doctors are experts in the study of vaccines. None of this is true. You might ask, "Why should I believe you?". You shouldn't- *but* there are ways to fact check what I say. ON YOUR OWN.

You'll find that the these people are indeed *out there*. They would tell you that the powers-that-be are plotting against them so don't believe all those other sources: *then* my question boils down to:
"Who are you going to believe the medical establishment, the government, universities, journals, the media or
a guy with a phoney PhD who sells supplements?"

** ProgressiveCommentaryHour @ ProgressiveRadioNetwork.com/ Archives; 12/26/11.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

When were you last given an immunization...and why didn't you read the VIS (Vaccine Information Sheet) that is provided before you consent to the vaccine?

You know, in my adult memory, I've never been offered a VIS with an immunization, and it's not for lack of getting them.

I am interested to know why it is acceptable for America to sit through a half hour NBC Nightly News program (or any main stream media channel for that matter) and be bombarded with direct to consumer marketing ads which spew pharmaceutical drugs such as Celebrex, Chantix, Celexa, Cymbalta, Lunesta,etc. (all in one show) while listing all their side effects

I don't think it's acceptable. Maybe I'm too Old School, but I think that direct-to-consumer marketing of prescription drugs is an abomination.

However, I don't know what this has to do with the NVIC's fake "vaccine education" message and McCarthy the Ignoramus' endorsement other than the fact that they, too, are abominations.

@Narad - I agree. I don't recall ever being given a VIS. On the other hand, I've never asked for one either - nor would I. I've been getting vaccinations all my life (far more than average, since I was a military dependent living overseas), have no history of adverse reactions and am not concerned about the vanishingly small odds of having one.

There is no life without some risk.

@lilady

The question was regarding ads and informed consent. Drug companies put ads out all the time that disclose side effects, why is it so different for vaccination? If the CDC and AAP have a problem with NVIC then why not beat NVIC at it's own game and start their own public marketing campaign which discloses benefits of vaccination as well as side effects of vaccines for full informed choice?--No different from any other drug ad out there.

Yes, I do read the VIS that is provided, but I think you are missing the point--we are talking about a public ad (Time Square, Main Stream Media) on informed consent.

Are these not legitimate questions?

@Lisa

First off, I'll just say that I don't think that direct-to-consumer marketing of drugs is a good thing. Yes, it increases awareness of potential alternatives that patients might not otherwise know about for a variety of reasons, but it also carries the risks of people demanding drugs that they do not need (and shopping around until they find a doctor willing to prescribe them) and creating greater traction for one drug over its competitors, which may be superior but suffer from poorer advertising.

That said, there is a difference between DTC ads for drugs and what the NVIC does. 1) Drug ads on TV are required to use the same type of imagery/music/voice over for both the benefits and the risks. 2) Drug ads are required to list the side effects that you would also find in the package insert. 3) Drug ads are not allowed to make claims which are not supported by FDA approval.

None of those conditions apply to the NVIC. If they did, then NVIC would have to maintain a neutral presentation, include a slew of disclaimers that its site is rife with misinformation and avoid any claims which are not supported by valid evidence. On those grounds, your comparison falls flat.

The ad is advertising the NVIC web site. It is not advertising informed consent, because if it were, it would direct people to reputable, science-based sites with sound information to educate consumers. For example, the CDC has a wealth of information directed at consumers that is easy to read and presents the benefits and risks in a balanced and fact-based manner.

@ Narad: Providing a VIS for each vaccine administered to a child or adult is a requirement according to the NCVIA (National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act).

The VISs are available in English and in many other languages and the NCVIA law is applicable to all vaccines that are on the current "Recommended Childhood Vaccines Schedule"...it includes influenza vaccine, as well.

There are VISs for all "other" vaccines that are licensed in the USA, as well...such as adult pneumococcal vaccine, shingles vaccine, rabies vaccine, yellow fever vaccine, typhoid vaccine, Japanese encephalitis vaccine, etc.

I do know that pediatricians, family practice physicians and public health clinicians do provide the VISs..."other" doctors should follow the law...it constitutes "informed consent" and informs parents and other recipients of vaccines what minor benign reactions might occur after vaccination.

I always ask for a VIS. I keep looking for the one that might turn me into the Incredible Hulk. Then I'll just keep getting back in line until I get lucky.

Fear mongering, treating people like they are stupid, "my way is the only way". These are the thoughts of those who do not want the truth out there.

Why are you trying to silence anyone who does not agree with you? I want to hear both sides. I want to know the risks and benefits before I commit to something. That should be simple and easily allowed.

This article uses the tactic of name calling and demonizing people who don't agree with you, it's shameful. Let their voice be heard and let the people decide who to listen to. What are you afraid of?

Some vaccines may be useful, but not when the companies making them even say they are not sure whether they are safe or effective.

My kids have been healthier all their lives than ALL the kids I know who have had all their 20 to 44 vaccinations. Most of those kids have had ear problems, ear infections and high fevers with rushes to the emergency room several times. My husband has been healthier than me, I had my shots as a kid, he did not.

People should be able to choose, not have something forced upon them that could cause serious life long illnesses; with no compensation from those who caused it. Let the debate happen. Let ALL the facts get out. Let people hear from those who have been effected.

there is a good, small article about the side effects of the flu vaccine at http://www.allnaturalhealthylife.com/news/side-effects-of-flu-vaccine/. What's wrong with being informed?

Michelle - are you serious? Have you been over at the over-moderated echo-chamber that is AoA? Anti-vaccine folks don't want balance, and actively censor anyone that tries to submit evidence that doesn't fit their pet theories.

@Michelle

Why are you trying to silence anyone who does not agree with you? I want to hear both sides.

Perhaps you would like to hear Fred Phelps explain the other side of homosexuality? While he has the right to believe what he wants about this topic, he is not entitled to make up his own facts. It is perfectly reasonable to oppose him if he tries to spread his propaganda. Similarly, the NVIC should be opposed when they try to spread their misinformation. If you want informed consent, you need truth and factual information, not distortions.

I want to know the risks and benefits before I commit to something. That should be simple and easily allowed.

Hey, so do I! And it is allowed. All you need to do is take a look at the real evidence, not someone's cherry-picked, misquoted nonsense.

My kids have been healthier all their lives than ALL the kids I know who have had all their 20 to 44 vaccinations. Most of those kids have had ear problems, ear infections and high fevers with rushes to the emergency room several times. My husband has been healthier than me, I had my shots as a kid, he did not.

Other than the fact that no one here can verify whether what you say is true or not, I'll take you at face value and say, congratulations! You've been lucky. And, you've been largely protected from serious disease by everyone else around you who has been vaccinated.

People should be able to choose

Agreed. And they can choose whether to be vaccinated (thus protecting themselves and those around them) or not (putting themselves and those around them at increased risk of infection).

not have something forced upon them

They aren't, really. There are options for those who wish to avoid protecting themselves and others. All but two states have some sort of philosophical or religious exemption. Even barring those, there's the option of homeschooling your children. The only time children are required to get their immunizations is when they attend a school or day care, where there is an increased risk of disease transmission. But even then, the aforementioned exemptions are available.

that could cause serious life long illnesses

As opposed to the serious lifelong illnesses and/or death that diseases bring at a much higher rate than any vaccine, yes?

with no compensation from those who caused it

Actually, they can receive compensation. The VICP compensates those who are injured by vaccines, and the vaccine makers pay a fee into the funding pool for the program.

Let the debate happen.

Okay. You bring your science to the table, I'll bring mine. And, go!

Let people hear from those who have been effected.

Wait, do you mean people who have truly been affected or are we including anyone who thinks they've been affected? Oh, and we should also include those who have been affected by the diseases prevented by vaccines. Of course, some of those can't speak because, well, they're dead, but their families can share their stories. A good site is Shot by Shot.

I think that until medical science can come up with a cause for autism etc. Then they SHOULD NOT be ruling anything out nor should they assume they know it all. I just had a doctor try to convince me to get my daughter the chicken pox vaccine. This child has down syndrome. Our pedi tried to tell me that if she did not get the vaccine she would die! Because and I quote " Chicken pox is ALWAYS FATAL in down syndrome!" Really!?!? I replied . He responded yes. That's amazing I said.. Cause she had it at nine months old when her siblings got it! She is still alive! So that DNA. Test was wrong or that doctor told a lie. I am going to start recording our visits... The other day he tried to tell me ONLY smokers can get bronchitis. SO who to believe. The pulmonolgist who says my child has bronchitis.. Or this licensed pediatritian who thinks only smokers get bronchitis? Again.. Maybe they need to find the cause of autism before they start saying people are wack a doos. Look at what discoveries have been found and or proven old beliefs to be wrong in just the last 100 yrs. Open minds please.

For all these woo-pushers, probably being generated wholesale by Age of Censorship, I offer the following phrase for pretty much everything you've said:

[citation needed]

By Pinkamena, Pan… (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

@Steph C

I think that until medical science can come up with a cause for autism etc. Then they SHOULD NOT be ruling anything out

Yes! Let's study staplers as a cause of autism. We cannot rule staplers out, because we don't know what does cause autism! (Are you beginning to see why your argument is flawed?)

As to your accounts of interactions with your doctor, I'll assume that your are recounting things accurately and that your memory or perception of what happened is in any way contrary to facts. If what you say is true, then your doctor sounds like an incompetent boob (or at least poorly informed), and I'd recommend finding a new one. At any rate, how does that say anything about the safety and efficacy of vaccines? Your doctor's a jerk, therefore vaccines are bad? I don't follow.

Michelle--
People are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts. The safety and effectiveness of vaccines is supported by mountains of data and scientific study. The side effects are rare, known, and documented.
The NVIC site, much like your "good, small article," is full of half-truths, full lies, misinterpretation, faulty logic, and wild speculation. This is not the material from which to make a informed and important decision. Look at the AAP, CDC, and Children's Hospital of Philadelphia websites (among other reputable ones). The vast majority of public health and medical practitioners support vaccines: not because they have been "bought out" or they are part of some "vast conspiracy," but because they have seen the data and know that the benefits greatly outweigh the risks.
Science can be tricky. Our educational system doesn't teach people enough about critical thinking, how to weigh sources and compare arguments. Fear and emotion, anecdotes, and appeals to "teach the controversy" and "present both sides"--these are useful techniques when debating politics, or religion, or other issues that lack a clear, objective right and wrong. Or, for Barbara Loe Fisher, issues that don't go they way they want. (Kinda like Stephen Colbert's quote that "reality has a liberal bias.") Science may not be infallible--neither are its practitioners--but the process itself can't be beat. And the science is very clear about the risks and benefits on vaccines, and why vaccinating kids is the right thing to do.

By Cynical Pediatrician (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

@Todd W

I agree with you about direct to consumer marketing ads for pharmaceuticals.

As far as informed consent---I think the problem lies with the CDC and AAP for not carrying out an effective campaign for vaccination to lead all of these "misinformed" parents down the path to "informed" decision making. Parents want and demand informed choice. They want to know side effects and benefits to help with their decision. The CDC and AAP would help by providing public ads that provide benefits AND disclose side effects instead of spouting off that NVIC is misinforming everyone.

If the AAP and CDC want people informed, then THEY NEED to INFORM them-in a justified, unbiased way. Apparently, parents need more than "trust me" these days.

Steph, I think you need a new pediatrician.

However, that does not change the situation that your argument makes no sense. There have been heaps of studies that HAVE ruled out any association between autism and vaccines. You say don't rule anything out until you know the cause? Does that include things that have been shown NOT to have any link? Things like vaccines, breathing air drinking water and being born on a day ending in Y?

And of course, there is no such thing as pro-vaccine propaganda that comes from the medical establishment and Big pHarma. The author of this blog is obviously ignorant, unintelligent and unoriginal. I'll bet he actually believes that vaccines were responsible for wiping out infectious diseases. Such uninformed, misinformed biases do nothing to further the cause of science.

I can't get too excited about this latest ad by the National Anti-Vaccine Information Center. After all, it's aimed at crowds in Times Square, right?

I prefer they target people who like to congregate outdoors, rather than theater-goers and airline passengers. I'm far more likely to catch flu or other vaccine-preventable bugs from newly minted antivaxers in a closed indoor setting.

"My kids have been healthier all their lives than ALL the kids I know who have had all their 20 to 44 vaccinations."

You should be effusively thanking all the responsible parents who had their kids vaccinated. It's because of them that your kids have been allowed to benefit from herd immunity and (so far) avoid potentially devastating vaccine-preventable illnesses.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

Damn, my super strength irony meter just 'sploded!!!!

@Lisa

While I agree that CDC and AAP could do better at informing people, keep in mind that they do a lot of other things, as well, and do not have propaganda as a central function in the way NVIC does. They have less freedom to pursue such efforts (unless they don't mind hampering efforts in other areas), not to mention that they are constrained by having to adhere to truth and fact. Remember, planting a seed of doubt and fear is incredibly easy to do and conversely extremely difficult to combat.

So, while I agree that agencies like the CDC and AAP need to do more at educating people, there is also a place for folks like you or I to fight misinformation when it pops up. Ms. Fisher is guaranteed the right to say whatever she likes; what she is not guaranteed is a forum in which to do so. In fact, anyone from whom she buys time/space to spread her misinformation should be informed of just what they are allowing to appear under their aegis, don't you agree?

Put it this way, using my Fred Phelps example above, suppose someone less well-known from his organization buys time on the TSQ digital display to air some of the Westboro Baptist Church's misinformed ideology in a fashion similar to the NVIC's, directing people to their own web site, where consumers will find skewed and distorted prose. Would you say that it is inappropriate to inform the owners/managers of that display about the content of the message? Why is it any different in this case, especially when, if the NVIC's message is seen broadly, the consequences for public health could be very dire indeed?

Well....I'm very sorry that you have an idiot for a paediatrician, Steph? But one idiot isn't good reason to throw out the entirety of medical science.
I think that until medical science can come up with a cause for autism etc. Then they SHOULD NOT be ruling anything out
But if you don't rule anything out for any reason, then you can't make any progress. I agree, it's certainly worth it to give every reasonable hypothesis a good test, with proper procedure, and proper review, and good data. But vaccines have been given a good test; they've been given many, many good tests, as a matter of fact. And the overwhelming majority of those tests have shown no connection between vaccinations and autism. Which doesn't completely disprove that vaccines cause autism, because science can't completely disprove anything. But it does indicate that it's very unlikely that vaccines cause autism, and that any more studies about it are likely to say the same thing.

By missmayinga (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

The author of this blog is obviously ignorant, unintelligent and unoriginal. I'll bet he actually believes that vaccines were responsible for wiping out infectious diseases.

And remember, nothing says "original" like doing a half-assed job of regurgitating low-rent antivax tropes.

Why do I get the sneaking suspicion that we have a morphing troll on our hands?

Maybe AoA just sprang a leak or something.

I have been following NVIC for quite some time now and I will say that their goal is not to scare people out of giving vaccinations. They believe that every parent should be told about the risks up front and then allowed to make the decision as to if the risks are appropriate for their children. NVIC promotes INFORMED concent.....just like when you have surgery...they tell you upfront about all risks associated with the procedure. Furthermore, NVIC makes it clear that they are not anti vaccine...instead the believe that there is another way to vaccinate children other than the CDC recommended schedule that gives children the vaccines without the risks. The fact that several people here admit not seeing package inserts really proves NVICs point....why keep it from people if it is so safe?? Why not have a real discussion on the risks instead of saying there are none but not giving those inseets? We have a right to know.
Lastly, this is America...home of the free. nVIC has every right to post what they want where they want and if people do not like it....then do not read it or watch it. This is called freedom of speech and is guaranteed to all of us whether we like what we are hearing/reading or not.

One more thing....why worry about "unvaccinated" kids getting "vaccinated" kids sick...they have been vaccinated so aren't they safe? Is that not the entire point of the vaccine to begin with??

nVIC has every right to post what they want where they want and if people do not like it....then do not read it or watch it. This is called freedom of speech and is guaranteed to all of us whether we like what we are hearing/reading or not.

Nice grasp of the First Amendment there.

@Nikki

NVIC promotes MISinformed consent. Take a closer look at their site and you will find that there are subtle omissions in the information provided, as well as distorted presentations of information (e.g., they have a memorial wall for allegedly vaccine injured individuals, but nothing about those harmed by vaccine-preventable diseases; also see how they promote the myth that Gardasil causes death).

As to the VISs, they are not being withheld. Some doctors are very good about handing them out. Every year that I've gotten my flu shot, I've received an up to date VIS about it. Other doctors may forget to give them out. However, all of the VISs are readily available on the CDC and AAP web sites. Furthermore, all of the vaccine inserts are available from the CDC, FDA and the manufacturers. The information is readily available and parents/patients should take the time to read them.

Why not have a real discussion on the risks instead of saying there are none but not giving those inseets?

We would welcome a real discussion of risks. Unfortunately, places like the NVIC, Age of Autism and the like distort the risks of vaccines and play down the risks of diseases. We cannot have an honest discussion when they do stuff like that.

nVIC has every right to post what they want where they want

See my counter examples above. To add to what I said earlier, do I have the right to have my message broadcast on, say, CBS, regardless of what CBS thinks of what I have to say? Do I have the right to go on the CBS evening news and spend 5, 10, 15 minutes talking about how person X is a vile, child-murdering psychopath, regardless of the facts and in spite of CBS not wanting to sell me airtime? Do I have the right to come into your home and expound on some topic, regardless of the fact that it is your private property? Free speech has limits, and while I will say that NVIC has the right to say what they want, I also have the right to say that they are wrong, wrong, wrong.

Ah, the good ol' freedom of speech argument - "I have the freedom to say anything I want without you arguing with me!"

The fact that several people here admit not seeing package inserts really proves NVICs point....why keep it from people if it is so safe??.
Because it's boring. Incredibly, incredibly boring. Seriously, look at this thing:
ht_p://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_pi.pdf
I'm used to reading journals, and even my eyes are glazing over.

(Actually, this really is starting to look like a morphing troll - they all seem to have the same tenuous grasp on grammar, for one.)

By missmayinga (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

@Nikki

One more thing....why worry about "unvaccinated" kids getting "vaccinated" kids sick...they have been vaccinated so aren't they safe? Is that not the entire point of the vaccine to begin with??

You are falling into the Nirvana fallacy here. In other words, you seem to be saying that vaccines are either 100% effective or 0% effective, with no in-between. While many vaccines approach 100% efficacy, there is always the chance that, for one reason or another, some individual will not gain immunity from it, just like some individuals do not gain immunity from natural infection.

You are also ignoring those individuals who, for medical reason, cannot be vaccinated. So, those who are capable of being vaccinated but choose not to are putting those individuals at risk, as well. If you want an expanded discussion on this, read this post.

You are falling into the Nirvana fallacy here.

Oh, I think that's being overly generous.

Ah, yes. Habitual hypocrisy, right Dave?

By OracisaQuack (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

Hmmn this Nikki is a new commenter. I searched.

If you are naive about immunology, vaccinology, the infection schedule vs. the vaccine schedule and so on, NVIC might seem to be a reliable source of information.

Which is exactly why NVIC's propaganda should be so vigorously opposed.

Nikki went on to write:

why worry about "unvaccinated" kids getting "vaccinated" kids sick...they have been vaccinated so aren't they safe? Is that not the entire point of the vaccine to begin with??

As I was pondering that hoary piece of anti-vaccination bilge, a tweet popped up:

RT @pkids: Cocooning baby in world of vaxed teens & adults is something we advocate until baby can get all vaccinations http://t.co/kLErCLzf.

Cleverly, NVIC's website doesn't directly attack the concept of herd immunity. Barbara Loe Fisher takes her counter-factual preaching elsewhere: Barbara Loe Fisher and Joe Mercola Discuss Herd Immunity.

I love how you address all points except for the fact that parents have a right to be informed...period. I do not care if you think the insert is boring..that is but your opinion..as a parent I have the right to know how everything I choose to give...and not give...my child impacts her health. I would never allow a surgery for my daughter without knowing the risks....I have the right to know.

Doctors make mistakes, they are NOT God like creatures....it is up to the parent to be informed of the risks and make the right decision for their family....whether you agree with it or not...because at the end of the day...you do not know the family's history or issues...example....does autism run in the family...history of immune issues etc.

I just wonder how quickly anyone here would jump the fence and become NVICs biggest supporter if their child was injured or God forbid killed by a vaccine when they were not ever told that was a possibility when getting the shot.

@Nikki

Well, I did address the right to informed consent aspect, if you'll go back and read my comments. Care to address the points I raised?

As to supporting NVIC? The only way I'd support NVIC is if they did an about-face and started using science-based arguments, rather than distortions and misinformation. Even if my child were injured by a vaccine (and provably so), I would not support NVIC as it is currently run.

Oh...one more thing on the whole freedom of speech thing...the constitution does not specify what can and cant be said or where and how it is said...hence the word freedom. Haven't you watched the news lately...many opinions there on CNN, MSNBC, Fox etc....if you do not like the message change the channel...period.

I love how you address all points except for the fact that parents have a right to be informed...period.

This has been addressed.

@Nikki,
Do you believe parents are being kept from reliable information about vaccines? Actually, the information is freely available: go to the CDC, go to the manufacturers' websites, go to your doctor's office.
Now, if you believe the NVIC is a source of reliable information, that's a whole 'nother issue.

By Cynical Pediatrician (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

@Nikki

the constitution does not specify what can and cant be said or where and how it is said

No, it doesn't. What it does, say, though, is that the government cannot abridge a person's speech. Private individuals or businesses are under no such obligations. CBS is not required to sell air time to any and every person that wants to spout something on their channels. You are under no obligation to let me into your home so I can expound on whatever the hell I wish.

On a side note, it almost seems like Nikki is trying to abridge our rights to ask the owners of the digital display to not run the NVIC ad.

@47
I was being flip about it, obviously. Basically, the full insert is so packed with jargon that it's near meaningless for anyone without a background in immunology - which isn't particularly feasible for most parents. So even if the doctor were to hand it over, it wouldn't really make much sense.

you do not know the family's history or issues...example....does autism run in the family...history of immune issues etc.
You know, they have these wonderful things called patient histories that they take now.

(Also, where.....did you get ...all those ellipses ... from? ...Was there a...sale....?)

By missmayinga (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

@ToddW

I agree. I think that it is appropriate for NVIC to inform the owners/managers of the display about the content of the message. Although, it can lead to censorship and I am not privy to those laws so I can't really comment as to the nature of the relationship between advertiser and advertisee per say.

I also believe the CDC and AAP should be "constrained by having to adhere to truth and fact" since they are government agencies set up to protect public health. Although, it would favor them to start educating the public and parents openly about the benefit and risk of vaccination no matter how small or large.

I personally think (and I hope you would agree) that by downplaying even the smallest risks associated with vaccines is hurting their agenda. This reason alone seems to represent why parents are out there searching for answers.

What do you think?

Lisa, do you eat? Don't you care about the risks involved in eating? Isn't it safer not to eat and avoid risks through inaction?

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

I think this subject is like religion. Belief has to come into it and different people lean towards different people. The fact that money comes into it doesn't help either. I know for a fact that medical trials are often conducted badly and find it difficult to trust studies done by the companies themselves and the more I read the more anti I become. I do however find an absence of an advised immunization schedule from the anti side. I do not want to vaccinate until I am sure, rather than trusting what is pushed on me.

Let me be clear...I think you all have a right to say what you want...heck...run an ad saying the opposite if you so desire. If I do not agree or want to hear it, I will change the channel..easy peasy. I find it funny how people are all about free speech when it is a message they support...but let it be something that makes the masses uncomfortable and it is evil.

As for you argument on informed consent...having information available on a website for a new mom to come home and dig for is not my idea of informed. That is unrealistic....and ANY new mom can tell you they will not be surfing the web digging for this kind of thing with a new baby....no time for that! Would you have major surgery like that? I should think not. Informed means this...I go to a doctor who I should be able to trust with my new baby. Doctor opens a dialogue about vaccinations and openly tells be BOTH the risks AND benefits of each shot that we are considering. Said doctor then sends me home with some literature to read that I can trust...because this would eliminate the need to visit sites such as NVIC....we then make a decision about if to give the shot or not..period. if we decide not to give said shots...doctor listens to my concerns and suggest an alternate schedule that is not so cut n dry...like spreading them out for example....and does not tell me to leave his office and find a new doctor.

I have learned the hard way in my life not to throw stones at glass houses. I pray you all will not find yourselves on the other side of the fence with a vaccine injured child wishing and thinking.....oh I wish I just would have known these were dangerous because I would have done things a little differently.

Nikki - I would never want you to be on the other side of the fence, as a parent to a child that suffered severe and permanent complications from childhood illness (like measles, mumps, pertussis, polio, etc).

@Claire--
You do know, of course, that waiting to vaccinate is a decision in itself, that still entails risk--specifically, the risk that your child will catch a preventable infectious disease.
In a nutshell, the antivaxxers believe that infectious diseases are less dangerous--ALWAYS less dangerous--than vaccines. The rest of us believe the opposite.
Think about that before you make your decision not to decide. And then imagine your child on a ventilator because he or she has whooping cough and is too tired to even take a breath.

By Cynical Pediatrician (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

@Lisa

I also believe the CDC and AAP should be "constrained by having to adhere to truth and fact" since they are government agencies set up to protect public health. Although, it would favor them to start educating the public and parents openly about the benefit and risk of vaccination no matter how small or large.

They are pretty open about the benefits and risks. They do sponsor some ads, but their budgets are understandably geared toward other things, like research, outbreak investigation and education of health providers. They can only do so much, so other organizations, like Every Child by Two, need to make an effort to help spread real information and combat the fear-mongering nonsense spewed by places like the NVIC.

I personally think (and I hope you would agree) that by downplaying even the smallest risks associated with vaccines is hurting their agenda.

But that's the thing, they don't downplay the risks. They, and all of us who value a science-based approach, readily acknowledge the risks and try to put the risks into perspective, i.e., looking at the risks of the vaccines, the risks of the diseases and the risks of no vaccine, as well as looking at the benefits of each. Rather, it is the anti-vaccine activists who try to paint vaccine supporters as saying that vaccines have no risks at all, like we deny that there are any risks.

This is the crux of what we're trying to argue. As I said before, it is very easy to plant a seed of doubt in someone's mind. When you place no value on truth, it is very easy to simply spout some "fact" without backing it up with evidence. Often, the explanation of why that "fact" is wrong takes far more time and effort than most people have.

@Nikki

Yes, doctors should be talking with their patients. They should be giving them proper information to enable them to make an informed choice about their own and their children's health care. But when the patient/parent comes home and does go on the internet, they should be able to find reliable information, such as that provided by the CDC. Those who come across the NVIC site are being done a disservice. You say that if doctors did their jobs, then there would be no need for sites like the NVIC. To that I say, there is no need for a site like the NVIC, period. The only purpose it serves is to sow confusion and frighten people away from protecting themselves, their families and every person with whom they come into contact.

Tell me, what valid information is available on the NVIC site that is not already provided by the CDC or AAP?

I find it funny how people are all about free speech when it is a message they support...

The only one who brought up the completely inapropos "free speech" argument was you.

I personally think (and I hope you would agree) that by downplaying even the smallest risks associated with vaccines is hurting their agenda. This reason alone seems to represent why parents are out there searching for answers.

I suppose it comes down to overplaying versus underplaying the risks. There are, if you'll pardon my french, a shit-ton of groups out there that do nothing but overplay the risks - so in the atmosphere of panic they create, it's hard for the CDC et al to say anything about the risks without it being taken as admission that the naysayers are completely right. The panickers are almost always the ones who start the conversations about risks, by bringing up the worst case scenarios, so the CDC seldom gets the opportunity to do anything but correct the statistics and do "damage control".

(Sorry if this isn't very coherent. I'm kind of out of it today. I tried to explain things the best I could. :P)

By missmayinga (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

I guess Nikki, Lisa, Michelle, Claire and the rest of the Age of Autism sycophants cannot be bothered to click on the link I left above. I guess I'll have to recreate that message here:

I used to criticize NVIC's whooping cough page because it only talked about the DTP vaccine and all of its references were old. Then they revamped the site, and I looked at it again. They added some stuff, but it is full of cherry picking and often lying though by omission. Plus its bibliography of references is just full of fail (it looks like it was formatted by a fourth grader).

On NVIC's pertussis (whooping cough) page are these words: âOther Serious Reported Adverse Events:â¦., encephalopathy, headache, hypotonia, ear pain, apnea, cough, angiodema, pruritis, rash, fatigue and Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS).â

Then I click on the link that information apparently came from above, the link labeled âAbout INFANRIX Vaccine in Brief.â It is an FDA page about the vaccine. That list of adverse events is listed after this paragraph:

In addition to reports in clinical trials, worldwide voluntary reports of adverse events received for INFANRIX since market introduction are listed below. This list includes serious events and events which have a plausible causal connection to INFANRIX. These adverse events were reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size; therefore, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequency or establish a causal relationship to vaccination.

Why was this omitted? It makes it seem that the vaccine is more dangerous than what the data show. Which is why it is called lying through omission.

The DTaP has been used for over a decade, so there should be fewer references to the dangers of the DTP vaccine. Also, it would be more honest to actually refer to the proper vaccine on the line that says: âPediatrics â August 2005 study on effectiveness of DPT vaccine.â The link goes to a paper titled âPertussis Vaccine Effectiveness Among Children 6 to 59 Months of Age in the United States, 1998â2001â³, and is about about 3 DTaP and 2 DTP vaccines, not the non-existent âDPTâ vaccine.

That is not the only reference that NVIC poorly formatted, one is just a title of a book (Harrisonâs Principles of Internal Medicine). If NVIC is to be considered a top notch organization, it should at least use a standard reference format. Also it would be more professional to use the proper name of the whole cell diphtheria/tetanus/pertussis vaccine.

Also several pertinent papers have been ignored. Folks, that is called "cherry picking." Here are just a few that NVIC misses (kind of because they don't agree with the paragraph I quoted from their website):

http://ftp.fcs.uga.edu/cfd/cdl/docs/vaccines_exemptions.pdf

Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.
Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.

Vaccine. 2007 Jun 21;25(26):4875-9. Epub 2007 Mar 16.
Do immunisations reduce the risk for SIDS? A meta-analysis.

Expert Rev Vaccines. 2005 Apr;4(2):173-84.
Acellular pertussis vaccines in Japan: past, present and future.

@claire...read about Dr. sears. He provides an alternate schedule for children that ensures they get all important shots, skip some, and spread them out. To me vaccines are not a black n white or all or nothing issue. There is a large gray area that allows us parents to spread them out which decreases the risk for injury while also protecting against many serious life threatening illnesses. A GOOD doctor would share this kind of thing with their patients and be open to questions. Perhaps if more doctors were open to this kind of dialogue then there would be no need for sites like NVIC. However...where we stand now sadly this is not the case. It is almost an "us" against "them" mindset and it does not have to be because both sides make valid points.

Nikki - I just attempted to post this at AoA:

"Okay, I'll bite - if the article was about car safety, I would expect to see a list of concrete & scientifically supported actions, improvements, etc. that could be proposed and tested to show that they would in fact make a car safer. Or, a minimum, recommendations for what cars are safer than others.

Also, in this case, you are recommending that people don't drive cars until they are 100% safe (which, of course, they never can be in all situations).

And finally, I can't imagine what issue you would have in supporting the tentanus & rabies vaccines - unless you are either unable or unwilling to support any vaccines, in any situation.

Of course, given that any public support of vaccines (regardless of type) by AoA or its supporters would upset various anti-vaccine constituencies (and monetary supporters), I guess I would already know the answer to the question.

I doubt this will make it out of moderation, but if you truly want an honest dialogue, you must be able to at least allow for opinions that don't jive with your own."

Speaking of Freedom of Speech or censorship, let's see if they let that get posted.....

Obviously Nikki has not actually conversed with the average Pediatrician.....and Dr. Sears is a quack with no evidence to back up his so-called "schedule."

Stupid moderation robot! It only had one link!

Dear Nikki, Michelle, Claire, etc... why are the following references missing from NVIC's whooping cough page? Why do they still claim the vaccine can cause encephalopathy and SIDS, when the evidence says the complete opposite? How is that informed consent when crucial information like that is missing?

Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.
Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.

Vaccine. 2007 Jun 21;25(26):4875-9. Epub 2007 Mar 16.
Do immunisations reduce the risk for SIDS? A meta-analysis.

Expert Rev Vaccines. 2005 Apr;4(2):173-84.
Acellular pertussis vaccines in Japan: past, present and future.

Nikki, please explain that if NVIC wanted to fully inform parents why the left out the following references from their whooping cough page:

Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.
Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.

Vaccine. 2007 Jun 21;25(26):4875-9. Epub 2007 Mar 16.
Do immunisations reduce the risk for SIDS? A meta-analysis.

Expert Rev Vaccines. 2005 Apr;4(2):173-84.
Acellular pertussis vaccines in Japan: past, present and future.

@Nikki

read about Dr. sears. He provides an alternate schedule for children that ensures they get all important shots, skip some, and spread them out.

And Dr. Sears also readily admits that he has no science to back up his schedule. There is nothing that says that Dr. Sears' schedule is safer (or even as safe as) the recommended schedule. His schedule, in fact, leaves children at greater risk of acquiring an infection, and in some cases reduces the efficacy of a vaccine by spacing the boosters out too much.

Contrast this with the recommended schedule, which is reviewed by scientists at the CDC every year to see if anything needs to be adjusted. They look at the currently approved vaccines and their risk/benefit profiles, current disease trends, reported adverse events and verified adverse events.

Why is there so much aggression out there. People are trying to discuss this and stonewalling with rude remarks just confirms that people are scared to have their knowledge questioned. Thank you for your advice Nikki. One has no way of knowing how informed a doctor is. They usually only know the info given by the drug company because many are too busy to read both sides. I have spoken to many and no one has given me any indication they know much at all (let alone ingredients, DNA, aluminium Aduvant etc) yet they can recommend vaccination. Oh, and of course there is the line that they would immunise their child. As a nurse this is sales pitch I have heard many times. It does nothing to instill confidence. I will decide to vaccinate when I trust the opinion of someone who makes sense not patronising scare mongering comments. No one will be running to help me if My child is becomes an acceptable statistic.

Perhaps if more doctors were open to this kind of dialogue then there would be no need for sites like NVIC.

You seem to be continuing to maintain that filling this perceived gap is actually what NVIC does. It's not. Hence, crude VAERS "intelligence" and implications of causality. Hence, redacting VISs. Hence, the toxins calculator. Hence, the Advocacy Portal. ("NVIC wants to help you, our members, to organize and make a difference in your home state right where you live to protect and expand vaccine exemptions.")

Frankly, I don't even believe this withering-away-of-the-NVIC routine to be anything more than the assertion that if Babs Fisher were lord and sebastocrator of public health, then there would be no need for NVIC.

Lisa, do you eat? Don't you care about the risks involved in eating? Isn't it safer not to eat and avoid risks through inaction?

Ahh the stupidity, it burns!

@56

Is this really what you have to add to the discussion? Your analogy implying there are risks for everything (which I understand) is unwarranted. The topic is informed choice on vaccination and public ads.

@Todd W

I still think the CDC and AAP need to step it up in the "educating parents" department. If this is turning into a crisis of sorts because parents are refusing vaccination for their children, it should behoove them to get their act together and remedy the situation. We are being told that anti-vaxers are disease spreaders and are putting others at risk due to their "misinformation" and the CDC can't find money in their budget to address this issue?

It is very easy to plant the seed of doubt, but if parents are informed of the risks and benefits and these same parents value truth-this would not even be a problem.

We all know vaccines are not infallible. Let the risks be known and move on. I guess the problem lies with mandates. It is harder to mandate something that has risks, even if they are rare. Forcing known risks on someone whether good or bad has "infringement of rights" written all over it.

@Claire - Sorry about the snarkiness. To be honest, this site is mostly geared towards snark and trollfighting, so we kind of lay it on a bit thick when people with actual questions come here.

If you really want to know about the ingredients and whatnot, I'd recommend Paul Offit's pages on the CHOP website. I know he's got a reputation as an ~evil pharma shill~ on AoA and whatnot, but he's actually not all that bad - he explains things in a way that's easy to understand, and he backs up his claims with good solid evidence.

By missmayinga (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

@Lisa - The logic behind vaccine mandates is similar to the logic behind seatbelt mandates - i.e., there are known risks to taking the vaccine/using a seatbelt, but there are also known risks to not doing so - and the data indicate that the risks to not doing so are significantly higher than the risks to doing so.

By missmayinga (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

Ahh the stupidity, it burns!

Yeah, he's probably so dumb that he thinks paralysis can be caused by something other than polio. Crazy, huh?

By dedicated lurker (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

@ Claire:
@ Nikki:

We're told by those who question vaccines that those who *support* vaccination have conflicts of interest, either monetary or ego-boosting ( "being right").

Are those who oppose vaccination *free* of COIs? On the monetary side: they may sell products that replace vaccines( e.g. supplements) or that boost a "natural health" viewpoint ( also books, websites, treatments, other products), or even *safer* vaccines ( Wakefield) or methods ( Sears).

There are other issues: parents believe that vaccines "caused" their children's autism as a way to absolve or distance themselves from the stigma of a hereditarial problem or to blame an external source for their current difficult life situation as a care-giver; others may blame vaccines as part of their own agenda- becoming famous for an alt med system or selling themselves as a New Age guru ( "being right" by trumping the medical profession).

Being an anti-vaxxer can be a career path or a way to achieve fame ( or notoriety). Quite a few on that list ( see AoA, NVIC, NJCVC, EBCALA).

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

While Dr. Sears schedule may not be "researched"...which i doubt u know to be a fact....at least he is a Dr. Willing to do things a little differently and meet the pro vaccine folks in the middle. This is not an all or nothing issue and not one of you have gone to med school. No one here has any knowledge that is better than anyone else's....it all came from the web. Well I just found a website selling ocean front property in AZ...should I believe that too just because it is on the web?
My point is that no..not everything on NVICs site rings true for me....but neither does the stuff on the CDCs site...or the FDA where most of its members are on the boards of the big pharma companies that make the vaccines......vaccines r big money and where that much money is involved..there will be corruption.
I agree with Lisa...the vaccines r not perfect and we know this.....be honest about the side affects, be open about them and let parents make their own choices.....informed consent. Again...if doctors were having these types of talks with their patients then NVIC would not have such a following because parents like myself would not feel the need to seek answers elsewhere...we'd be getting them from the doctors. So holding back and not being forthcoming has created a huge spring board for these kinds of websites.

As for the comment made to Lisa about eating....your body processes toxins taken into your mouth and breathed into your nose much differently than those injected directly into the blood. In addition, the amount of aluminum and mercury in the vaccinations is much higher than what the FDA and CDC admit are safe....to consume toxins at that level would not be easy.

Isn't it funny how the anti-vaxxers make post after post here complaining that Orac wants to censor people, without ever noticing the irony, while pro-children posters are routinely banned from AOA, all the while the commissars at that site boast of their open-mindedness?

Meanwhile Nikki writes: "One more thing....why worry about "unvaccinated" kids getting "vaccinated" kids sick...they have been vaccinated so aren't they safe? Is that not the entire point of the vaccine to begin with??"

Nikki - there are children who are too young to be vaccinated, and children with medical conditions that preclude vaccination, and there are a few children for whom vaccinations don't work. You may laugh off the death of such children, but don't expect parents to join in.

Yeah, he's probably so dumb that he thinks paralysis can be caused by something other than polio. Crazy, huh?

In India, where it is saturated with OPV, then it must be something else other than polio, yeah right.

Yeah, he's probably so dumb that he thinks paralysis can be caused by something other than polio.

Oh, stop it. As long as you stay on the sidewalk, you won't get infected. You disease-promoter-you!

(Did I get it right, Thingy? I'm trying to learn how to speak psychopatic loon.)

Claire:

Why is there so much aggression out there. People are trying to discuss this and stonewalling with rude remarks just confirms that people are scared to have their knowledge questioned.

I don't believe I have shown any aggression. Do you consider asking why NVIC leaves out crucial information on their website aggression? They list terrible things that they claim are caused by vaccines (which is scaremongering), but leave out the papers that show those fears are unfounded and that vaccines can prevent SIDS.

And are you really a nurse? If you are, what kind of food do you eat that does not have DNA? Also, do you only eat DNA free plants that have been grown in soil without feldspars (the most common mineral in soil that contains one of the most common elements on this planet's crust, aluminum). Seriously.

Lisa, do you eat? Don't you care about the risks involved in eating? Isn't it safer not to eat and avoid risks through inaction?

Ahh the stupidity, it burns!

Carpet, dirt. You're using a different stuff, on science but I'll give one you have it is justifiable: thus essential to eat; contaminants from your answer a primary infection.

By Th1Th2bot (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

@parent...that is the point of herd immunity yes? if ur child is not one of these kids then u have nothing to worry about cause ur kd is vaccinated...phew...they r safe!

Seatbelts and vaccines....grabbing at straws there....two totally different issues. You are not injecting toxins at staggering levels directly into the blood by putting on a seatbelt.

Want to talk about fear mongering.....Paul offitt admits that fear is the way to get parents to vaccinate....and he has made tens of millions of dollars creating vaccines.....so he creates them....gives them to innocent kids without openly sharing their risks...then profits from that...and no one sees a conflict of interest there? You say Dr. Sears is a quack...Paul Offit is the devil! He says "some must die to protect the herd" and that is ok?

@missmayinga-

I understand the idea behind a mandate. Although, I think the seat belt vs vaccine mandate is a tough sell. For one, seat belts are noninvasive and risks may include a strap mark, not seizure or induced encephalitis.

Okay Nikki - now you are just regurgitating the standard AoA talking points.

And vaccines aren't injected into the bloodstream - despite what Insane Troll might tell you (and what about nasal or oral vaccines?).

AoA has patented using fear to battle vaccines - tell me they don't.

Remember you're dealing with someone whose world view is different. Jake Crosby is not antivaccine like Andrew Wakefield was not fraudulent in his research. Jake is not antivaccine like vaccines have not prevented major outbreaks of serious stuff. He is not antivaccine like I'm not Mexican.

All my opinion, of course. ;-)

Lawrence:

Okay Nikki - now you are just regurgitating the standard AoA talking points.

Along with the txt-speak and ellipses. Yikes.

In India, where it is saturated with OPV, then it must be something else other than polio, yeah right.

Go fill up the squirrel to children.

No loitering allowed.

By Th1Th2bot (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

Claire said: "One has no way of knowing how informed a doctor is. They usually only know the info given by the drug company because many are too busy to read both sides...Oh, and of course there is the line that they would immunise their child. As a nurse this is sales pitch I have heard many times. It does nothing to instill confidence."

Maybe they tell you that because it's the truth - physicians know that vaccination is important to their children's health and well-being. I haven't seen any recent surveys on how closely physicians in the U.S. follow the recommended vaccine schedule, but this one from Switzerland found that 92% of pediatricians did so.

ht_p://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=pediatrician%20immunize%20own%20childr…

It's unfortunate that there are outliers who buy into vaccine scaremongering (such as Drs. Sears and Gordon), but the physicians I've talked to know better. Among them was my father, who began having children during the height of the post-WWII polio epidemic and was grateful for the vaccine that lifted the fear of his kids being paralyzed by polio. We mostly got the typical childhood infectious diseases of the time (it was before vaccines were developed for most of them) but it was not because he didn't use the best available tools to keep us safe.

It is disheartening that a nurse would consider leaving her own children unprotected due to a need to weigh "both sides" - as though there was a "side" with evidence sufficient to contradict what we know about the efficacy and safety of vaccines.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

and he has made tens of millions of dollars creating vaccines

OMFG!!! He created vaccines that have prevented illness. disability and death and he made money doing it!!! Almost as much as Kim Kardashian made for no discernable reason!!!
How evil is that!!!

AS I have asked before: Why do you antivax idiots have a problem with that? Are you communists?

Yes, I went there. I called you an idiot. Because you are one.

@missmayinga

I understand the logic of a mandate. Although, I think seat belt vs vaccine mandate is a tough sell. For one, a seat belts known risks include maybe a strap mark on the flesh, not seizures or induced encephalitis. I do understand you pointing out the risks of not using a seat belt being greater as compared to the greater risks of foregoing vaccination, but I still think they're not comparable on the same level.

I am not familiar with AoA and what it represents? What does that stand for? Also...who is Jake Crosby??

As for injecting into the blood...yes they are not injected into a blood vessel but they are injected into muscle so the bloodstream absorbs and metabolizes the aluminum and toxins. When you eat food with these toxins your body deals with those toxins differently. Since some are so literal, let me make it clear that I am not saying toxins in food are good or ok. I am simply saying that the amount that is absorbed directly into your bloodstream is much much higher from vaccines than the amount you eat in foods.

@ren....u do not know anyone on here so u have no idea what anyone's world view is. You can hardly judge that kind of thing from a vaccine blog.

Lisa @92 --

No, seat belts do have risks, not just strap marks. You could be trapped in a burning car, or pinned in place during a side impact (it happened to a great uncle of mine), or who knows what. People who don't like seat belts tend to cite scenarios like this when they're arguing against seat belt laws.

The analogy is actually a very good one -- for every "adverse event" caused by a seat belt, they save hundreds of lives -- people who would catapult through the windshield, be ejected from a rolling car and crushed underneath, and so on and so on. The risk ratios for vaccines are probably not that dissimilar.

By palindrom (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

Lisa:

Google "seat belt injuries". These include spinal fractures, lacerations to internal organs, ruptured intestines and more. I suspect that the risks are, in fact, comparable.
You are still better off wearing a seat belt in a collision. It's a trade-off.

@ Lawrence: Surprise...your comment made it out of moderation at AoA...and two people commented on it. I especially like the b.s. about tetanus boosters not be necessary.

@ Claire: Were you absent from class when immunology, infectious diseases and immunizations were taught. Did you not do rotations in pediatric departments of hospitals? Don't tell me you weren't required to take organic and inorganic chemistry courses in college. Just how did you pass your your nursing boards?

I see the SFB troll is back. Please do not feed delusional etc., etc. It needs "terminal disinfection".

...yes they are not injected into a blood vessel but they are injected into muscle so the bloodstream absorbs and metabolizes the aluminum and toxins. When you eat food with these toxins your body deals with those toxins differently.

*headdesk* *headdesk* *headdesk*

Out of the several dozen errors in this paragraph, let me just start with a few:

- What is the aluminum for?
- What, exactly, are the different ways aluminum is "metabolized"?
- Could you list these other "toxins"?

@98 & 99

Very good points.

I guess I should clarify. The act of putting on a seat belt is noninvasive, where as the act of vaccine injection into the muscle is invasive. I am assuming these are the reasons parents do not see a seat belt mandate as comparable to a vaccine mandate or risks for seat belts as comparable to risks for vaccination.

I was trying to play devil's advocate and probably shouldn't have made the point.

I tell ya. I go away for a few hours, and I come home to an infestation of antivaccine pseudoscience. Since I don't recognize some of these commenters as having been here before, I can only assume that someone somewhere posted a link to this post on an antivaccine discussion forum or blog or perhaps to Mothering.com, resulting in an influx of new commenters on the "other side." For those of you who are new here, let me just point out four things:

1. Nothing you have posted attacking vaccines is anything I haven't read and refuted before. In agonizing detail. Many, many times. This blog has been around for seven years, and many of your talking points have been discussed here since the very beginning. I am not impressed.

2. Nothing you have posted here is anything many of my sharpest commenters haven't read and refuted before. In agonizing detail. Many, many times. This blog has been around for seven years, and many of your talking points have been discussed in the comments after posts about vaccines since the very beginning. I highly doubt any of my pro-science commenters are impressed. Certainly, I am not.

3. This is a no-holds-barred comment area. I leave it that way because, unlike (for example) Age of Autism's editors, I do not fear other viewpoints, no matter how aggressively promoted. Science and science-based medicine can withstand whatever is thrown at it here. In the seven years this blog has existed, only a handful of commenters have ever been banned. That is true, even though from time to time my regular commenters get so thoroughly disgusted with the occasional really persistent and obnoxious idiot who just doesn't realize when he or she has been thoroughly defeated. Banning offenses are very few: Sockpuppets, threats of violence, extreme racism and misogyny, and a few other things will do it, but compared to most bloggers I tolerate a ridiculously broad degree of viewpoints. It usually doesn't even bother me when commenters attack me personally; so if you think you'll get to me that way, you'll be sorely disappointed.

4. I realize I'm sarcastic and snarky on a fairly frequent basis. Deal with it. I make no apologies. If sarcasm offends you, there are plenty of other "nicer" blogs for you to hang out at. Believe it or not, I've actually mellowed as the blogging years have passed, something to which my longtime readers can probably attest. If you take the time to read over a more prolonged period of time than one sarcastic post about the NVIC, you'll find that I regularly deal with serious scientific issues, including reviews of the primary literature. You'll also find that if you ask me a serious question in a non-insulting manner I will usually respond in kind, at least when I have time to respond.

Finally, I'm on vacation this week; so I'm slumming a bit and probably won't hit the peer-reviewed literature again for blogging material until next week.

Welcome, and have fun. Have a thick skin, though.

@tbruce....no..he can make a profit...however...it is a major conflict of interest for him to create a vaccine with known side effects then hide those side effects from unknowing babies to make that profit. Sine you must have taken Offits vaccine I say this to you...I am an idiot but you think it is healthy and normal to inject monkey kidney and toxins into your blood all to prevent diareah when a good probiotic can do the same......geez.

At lilady...r u a doctor? What are your credentials to be downing Claire and her course work? What degree do you hold?

"@ren....u do not know anyone on here so u have no idea what anyone's world view is. You can hardly judge that kind of thing from a vaccine blog."

Ren is a regular poster here and extremely well educated in epidemiology, immunology, infectious diseases and the vaccines that prevent them. He works with these issues every day and sees first hand the terrible consequences of not having children and adults fully immunized.

Um, Nikki...I find it difficult to read your posts...could you knock off the teen texting schtick...it's annoying.

no..he can make a profit...however...it is a major conflict of interest for him to create a vaccine with known side effects then hide those side effects from unknowing babies to make that profit.

Except that Dr. Offit did nothing of the sort. He did not "hide side effects" in order to make a profit. That is a very serious charge, and I'd be more than willing to bet that you have no evidence to back it up.

Oh, and I agree with lilady. The texting schtick in your comments is truly annoying. It's fine for texting, but in the comments of a blog it just makes you look dim. You could be the most brilliant person here, and we'd never know it because of the way you choose to present yourself with the texting schtick.

Well, that and your truly misinformed bit about "monkey kidneys." Come on, that's an antivax talking point so ridiculous that even Barbara Loe Fisher doesn't use it, as far as I can tell. Next you'll be regurgitating the "fetal tissue in vaccines" talking point. I'll preempt it here: There's a huge difference between cell lines derived decades ago and tissue.

Let's see if we can get some other guest on the show to make a stand for Reason this Season.

I posted some info on many of the guest's facebook pages. What about twitter, and other social networks.

By scott nopp (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

Monkey kidneys? For crying out loud.

And yes...nikki...grownups...don't...post...like...this...it's...really...tiresome...kthxbai.

@claire...read about Dr. sears. He provides an alternate schedule for children that ensures they get all important shots, skip some, and spread them out.

Do you know how he came up with his "alternate schedule"? Does he publish scientific studies with regards to vaccines? Does he have anything to sell perhaps?

@Nikki

Actually, I do know for a fact that Dr. Sears' schedule is not based on any science. He has admitted so himself, as I said before.

.be honest about the side affects, be open about them and let parents make their own choices.....informed consent.

That's what we are trying to do! We are being honest about the side effects. Did you not read anything that I posted already? We want parents to be informed. The problem is that places like NVIC and Age of Autism (AoA) spread misinformation that muddies the waters, propagating myths and misinformation, as well as groundless fear.

As for the comment made to Lisa about eating....your body processes toxins taken into your mouth and breathed into your nose much differently than those injected directly into the blood. In addition, the amount of aluminum and mercury in the vaccinations is much higher than what the FDA and CDC admit are safe....to consume toxins at that level would not be easy.

So you're saying that toxins in food are not absorbed into the bloodstream? That'll be news to all the biologists out there. Where you seem to be misinformed is that there are significantly more toxins (definition, please) in vaccines than in your food. Let's take mercury as an example, since you bring it up.

The type of mercury in vaccines is ethylmercury. It is eliminated from the body in about a week or so. The type of mercury most common in foods (and in air pollution) is methylmercury. It takes weeks to months to be eliminated from your body, giving it more time to build up, and is significantly more toxic to the body than is ethylmercury. What's more, nearly all of the mercury contained in food gets absorbed into the bloodstream. Eating a single can of tuna exposes you to several times the amount of the less toxic ethylmercury that is found in some (not all) vaccines.

Likewise, aluminum is present in a lot of foods, including breast milk, not to mention dust (both on the ground and breathed in from the air). While not as readily absorbed via the digestive tract as methylmercury, the sheer volume of aluminum that is present means that normal daily exposure is significantly higher than in vaccines, which typically do not continue hour after hour, day after day. And then you have large volume parenteral nutrition, for which the FDA limits on aluminum exposure were drafted. LVP products are given intravenously (i.e., directly into the bloodstream), meaning that all of the aluminum they contain courses through the body. LVPs are given for several days, and by the end of the average course, the patient will have been exposed to more than twice the amount found in an aluminum-adjuvant-containing vaccine. Then there's the fact that it only takes about 5 days for the body to eliminate about 70% of the aluminum.

A lot of the things you've been saying in this thread are common anti-vaccine myths. You may want to take a look at this site to see why they are myths.

Lol....one final thing to fuss about because you all can not find fault in the facts I have presented. Monkey kidneys in rotavirus...yup you can google and find that little factoid. Not many here are open to a real discussion. Many of you seem to know what you know......but sadly that is all you know! I don't give a poop what RENs credentials are...that still gives him no right to ASSUME what ones world views are. You know what they say about assuming.

That makes him look more stupid than my text typing....which I do because I am using an iPad....I have a doctoral degree in education so I am far from stupid.

Orac...do you know Offit personally to know what he did and did not do? Have you ever spoken to him or are you saying he did not do that because it is hard to believe that someone would do such a thing. Please do not be naive...money makes people do unthinkable things!

Nikki - I raise your Google University with PubMed. You really should have some idea of what you're posting before you do.

"At lilady...r u a doctor? What are your credentials to be downing Claire and her course work? What degree do you hold?"

BSc-Nursing, licensed registered nurse and recently retired as a public health nurse.

And Claire's and Nikki's credentials and degrees are?

Monkey kidneys in rotavirus...yup you can google and find that little factoid. Not many here are open to a real discussion.

They are not injected into ur nose-body processes, toxins taken into ur nose. Period: web.

By Instabot Conveyances (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

Lisa:

For one, a seat belts known risks include maybe a strap mark on the flesh, not seizures or induced encephalitis.

And which vaccines cause those? Which ones cause seizures and encephalitis more than the diseases? Please post a citation, similar in format to the one I posted earlier (more than once due to posting glitches), one that you should actually read:

Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.
Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.

Nikki:

Want to talk about fear mongering.....Paul offitt admits that fear is the way to get parents to vaccinate....and he has made tens of millions of dollars creating vaccines.

He got a one time payment of six million dollars, mostly because he shared it with his two co-researchers. What do you have against people being compensated for twenty years of work? Do you think those who are engineers, scientists, writers, software developers and others who work in intellectual capacities should not be paid, just because they do not produce a physical item?

Also, having had a toddler sick for over a week with rivers of poo, getting dehydrated, and end up going to the hospital by ambulance due to the subsequent seizures due to rotavirus: I have the privilege of calling you a callous idiot.

And it is not just for your juvenile posting style, but because you say stupid things like "tens of millions", and have no idea, nor do you care about, the real severity of the actual diseases.

@Nikki

Orac...do you know Offit personally to know what he did and did not do? Have you ever spoken to him or are you saying he did not do that because it is hard to believe that someone would do such a thing.

I believe Orac asked you for evidence. Funny, though, the same questions you ask of Orac could be turned back at you. Do you know Dr. Offit personally to know what he did and did not do? Clearly, since you do not provide any evidence that he did cover up side effects, then you must have spoken to him personally to know that he did such a thing. Sorry, but the rest of us prefer evidence over "because I said so". So, your evidence, please?

As to the monkey kidney thing, saying that the rotavirus vaccine contains monkey kidneys is like saying that the fried egg you had for breakfast contains frying pan. They are not taking monkey kidneys and grinding them up into a soup to inject into kids. See, parroting crap like that that you read on some anti-vaccine site just makes you sound, well, stupid. You say you have a PhD in education. Certainly you must have learned to do actual research before making claims, no?

sebastocrator

I am stealing that word.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

@ missmayinga

The seatbelt argument may be a bit dicey.

Research by John Adams of the University of London (University College IIRC) and Gerry Wilde of Queen's University, Kingston Ontario Canada (probably, among others) suggest that seatbelts are not the panacea we would like to think.

The arguements are a bit complex but at least one is that 'perceived' increased safety to drivers can result in harm to pedestrians (and passengers? It's been 2-4 years since I read that study).

I'm on a Linux machine, not my normal Windows machine so cannot grab the exact cites. However,the Adams paper on the Swedish seatbelt law should be easily googled.

By jrkrideau (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

Nikki @109:

Monkey kidneys in rotavirus...yup you can google and find that little factoid.

"A factoid is a questionable or spuriousâunverified, incorrect, or fabricatedâstatement presented as a fact, but with no veracity".

Are you sure that is really the word you intended to use?

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

I do NOT have a degree in any field of medicine. I have a PHd in education. My experience with vaccines comes from personal experience from vaccine injuries. When a loved one is hurt by something that could have been prevented, it is hard to swallow and live with.

@science mom....what is the harm in spreading out vaccines? It is a known fact that they are grouped together only to ensure the majority of the herd gets them. Make it easy for mom by giving them all at once and baby gets shots.

I regress back to my original argument because I know I will never convince any of you that vaccines are bad....and that really is not what I am trying to do. My original point in posting here is that all doctors should be 100% open and honest about what is in the vaccines...so that u all know about monkey kidneys for one reason....but also so you know about ALL toxins and the amount you are injecting into your child's blood....then you as a parent should also be told of the risk of not vaccinating...then you should have the freedom to make a decision. That folks is called informed consent and I bet the majority of you can agree that this did not happen when you took your kids to get their shots.

Monkey kidneys in rotavirus

Do you know what a culture is?
Do you know what amount of monkey kidney cells is in your average rota vaccine?

Really Orac? Put Jenny McCarthy aside, what problem could you actually have with NVIC's message? Vaccines do pose a risk...just read the package insert. Is it the choice thing that gets you so hot and bothered? Maybe you believe the gov't has a right to take away our choice in deciding what does and does not go into our bodies. Maybe it's the "our family" part...maybe you believe the gov't has the right to decide what medical treatments are forced on our children for the grater good rather than parents deciding what is best for their individual child. What ever the case....I think most logical and critically thinking individuals would find your irrational response to NVIC's add a bit shrill and over the top.

By pdbjpf@gmail.com (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

personal experience from vaccine injuries

I'm assuming your educational background is not in science, then. Personal experience is completely useless in determining vaccine safety for a multitude of reasons.

what is the harm in spreading out vaccines?

It allows the unvaccinated to spread diseases for longer. And that allows those that cannot be vaccinated to be infected for longer.

This is not difficult stuff, Nikki.

ALL toxins and the amount you are injecting into your child's blood

You don't seem stupid, so we'll have to assume you're plain lying now. What toxins? What amounts? And please, there's exactly one other person here who describes vaccine injections as "injecting into blood". Her name is Thingy, and she's clinically insane. You KNOW we're not talking about intravenous injections, so stop with the malarkey before we institute a Nikkibot.

Lol....one final thing to fuss about because you all can not find fault in the facts I (CLAIM TO) have presented. Monkey kidneys in rotavirus...(VACCINE, YOU FOOL) yup you can google (OR ASK NIKKI TO REACH INTO THE NETHER REGION OF HER ANATOMY) and find that little factoid. Not many of the (TROLLS AND SOCK PUPPETS) here are open to a real discussion. Many of (THE TROLLS AND SOCK PUPPETS) seem to know what you know......but sadly that is all you know! I don't give a poop what RENs (OR ANYONE ELSE'S) credentials are...that still gives (NO ONE) no right to ASSUME what ones world views are. You know what they say about (DOCTORATES IN EDUCATION).

That makes (NIKKI) look more stupid than (HER) text typing....which (SHE DOES) because (SHE IS) using an iPad....I have a doctoral degree in education so I am far from (BEING EDUCATED IN THE SCIENCES AND FAR FROM HAVING ANY "CREDENTIALS).

-FTFY "Doctor" Nikki

Orac...do you know Offit personally to know what he did and did not do? Have you ever spoken to him or are you saying he did not do that because it is hard to believe that someone would do such a thing. Please do not be naive...money makes people do unthinkable things!

You're the one who accused Dr. Offit of something vile. It's up to you to provide the evidence to support your accusation, something you have not done.

BTW, I do know Dr. Offit, at least professionally. I've even spoken to him a couple of times and exchanged e-mails with him several times. I bet that trumps you.

Now, back to evidence. What evidence do you have that Dr. Offit covered up side effects?

@Chris

I am not here to debate side effects. It's a fact. Vaccines have them. Read a product insert.

I believe this post was about public advertising and informed choice.

The seat belt analogy got away from me-I clarified @ post 101

Nikki: "That makes him look more stupid than my text typing....which I do because I am using an iPad...."

I've posted here before using an Ipad. I never had to...break up my sentences...this way...and did not need to save fractions of seconds with unnecessary abbreviations...what r u thinking??!?

"I have a doctoral degree in education so I am far from stupid."

This does not impress, and not only because many of those here also have advanced degrees. Deluded views about many topics (not just vaccines) are held by lots of folks with impressive-sounding academic credentials, including Nobel laureates (check using the search box on this blog for "Nobel disease").

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

Well, Nikki, for someone who claims to want more information, you sure seem to be able to spout a lot of it (albeit mostly wrong). "Vaccine injuries"..."toxins"...this is not open discussion or innocent inquiry, this is inflammatory antivax propaganda. You keep talking about "informed consent"--well, since I am a practicing pediatrician, I'll tell you just what I would tell any anxious parent:
"Studies have repeatedly shown vaccines to be very safe, and not linked to any long term side effects. Some children can get a mild fever, or some fussiness, after shots. Rarely shots can cause a high fever, a prolonged crying fit (about 3 hours), or even a febrile seizure. These are certainly distressing to the parent but cause no lasting harm to the baby.
Now, on the other hand, vaccines are very effective--though not 100%--at preventing serious infectious diseases, many of which are still around here in the US. We hardly see H. flu meningitis, pneumococcal meningitis, measles, and other diseases thanks to vaccines, though there still are a few cases every year. The vaccines are given to infants because they are most vulnerable at that age, before they develop stronger immune systems; so deciding not to give a certain vaccine at the recommended time means that your child will still be vulnerable to getting these diseases. I can tell you that I recommend the vaccine schedule as per the CDC and AAP, because I know the science and research and reasons in that schedule; so if you decided to do something differently, you would have to decide what diseases you are willing to risk. Do you have any questions? Or have you decided what you will do today?"
Of course, that's the 2-minute version, a succinct summary of the pros and cons. There are various other minutiae that quite frankly are so rare or obscure that they're not relevant--and some of which are even spelled out on the standard CDC Vaccine Information Sheet that is given at each visit anyway.
Does that answer some of your questions?

By Cynical Pediatrician (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

pdbjpf@gmail.com (who is silly enough to reveal their email address?):

what problem could you actually have with NVIC's message? Vaccines do pose a risk...

Do I have to repeat my post again? Go up and read this. I actually explain how NVIC misrepresents the evidence.

The problem is that NVIC does not represent the risks accurately. Do tell us exactly how the DTaP and Tdap vaccines are more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis (remember that thousands died from diphtheria in the former soviet countries when there was a lapse in vaccination, and at least ten babies died of pertussis in California). Show us with real evidence using real scientific citations. The following are three examples, and also tell us why those cites are missing from NVIC's whooping cough page:

Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.
Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.

Vaccine. 2007 Jun 21;25(26):4875-9. Epub 2007 Mar 16.
Do immunisations reduce the risk for SIDS? A meta-analysis.

Expert Rev Vaccines. 2005 Apr;4(2):173-84.
Acellular pertussis vaccines in Japan: past, present and future.

stop with the malarkey before we institute a Nikkibot

Ahem.

By Instabot Conveyances (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

Lisa:

I am not here to debate side effects. It's a fact. Vaccines have them. Read a product insert.

The product inserts are lawyer written cover your ass documents, and are not science. You made a claim that vaccines cause seizures, etc. Now you need to show us exactly what those rates are, and do it with real evidence. Now do not try to get out with silly excuses.

My son experienced seizures due to a real disease, now you need to prove that vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases. Be an adult, stop making excuses and back up what you said with real scientific evidence.

Too quick! I missed it! Insta indeed.

Lol....one final thing to fuss about

Apparently "final" is another word with a different meaning in Nikkiland.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

Well stu...spreading them out or skipping them is my right...so I guess u will just have to deal with that or move to a location that is primarily vaccinated.

As for my personal experiences...careful not to spit to high there. You may one day have to walk in my families shoes and then you will see how important our own experiences can quickly become. There is another side to your theory.

As for what toxins....are you serious or just that ill informed? How about formaldehyde in flu shots? Squalene...Aluminum....animal tissue cells....and the list goes on and on and on. And you are right the shots do not go directly into your vein....i am sorry that you are being so literal and i did not make my point more clear. However...when injected into the muscle and fatty tissues they're absorbed and metabolized into the blood directly. One does not need a degree in medicine to know this.

As for a nikkibot...bring it on and give me a break..really? Look...I just commented on this because I have a right to be informed..to say no...and to spread them out whether you like it or not. Hey..if your kid is vaccinated and they work so well you do not need to worry about my unvaccinated kid gettin your kid sick right. To be concerned makes your entire argument flawed. Either the shots work or they don't..period. Why give them if there is still this risk of getting the disease? Cracks me up when vaccinated kids get the virus any way then the Dr. Says...oh it would have been so much worse if not for the magic shot..holy crap r they psychic? How can they predict what a humans immune system could have or would have done. As for my unvaccinated kid giving other kids a virus..she can not spread what she does not have. How can she spread polio to an unvaccinated kid when she does not have polio?

Bottom line...if the government steps in and makes you have shots...what next will they make you do for the greater good of the rest of the country? Maybe they will tell u that u can't drink beer...or drive a truck because it burns too much gas and we all need our fair share...blahblahblah.

"Who is silly enough to actually reveal their email address?" Answer...Some one who is silly enough to actually commit a "typo" by unknowingly having typed it in the wrong field. You "typos" which you yourself have been known to make on occasion. If you are decent enough to do so, I would appreciate you deleting my post. I'll be more than happy to repost it with out the typo.

"And you are right the shots do not go directly into your vein....i am sorry that you are being so literal and i did not make my point more clear."

It's our fault for noticing when you attempt to put misrepresent the facts? Even by antivax standards that's pretty arrogant.

"Maybe they will tell u that u can't drink beer."

Indeed. Next thing you know that damned government will say that you can't drive drunk.

Nikki--I have a comment in moderation, but I just had to say: you started off requesting parents be given enough information to make proper informed consent. Well, you seem to be informed enough (ha ha ha) to have made up your mind already.
Incidentally, the government does not force you to vaccinate your child. Vaccines are required for entrance to public school, though all states provide for religious exemptions, and many allow for philosophical ones also. Of course, there are consequences in the event of an outbreak. And you can always opt out of the public school system and homeschool or choose private school. But having a doctorate in education, surely you knew this already.

By Cynical Pediatrician (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

Perhaps my very favorite passage from Dashiell Hammett's work is from his story The Golden Horseshoe:

I was reading a sign high on the wall behind the bar:

ONLY GENUINE PRE-WAR AMERICAN AND BRITISH WHISKEYS SERVED HERE

I was trying to count how many lies could be found in those nine words, and had reached four, with promise of more â¦

I have been reminded of that Tijuana bar many times, but never more piquantly than just now, when I read "injecting toxins at staggering levels directly into the blood." There are at least four lies in those nine words, with promise of more.

It is possible that Nikki will feel disrespected (if that's the word) by my observation. I hope not, since I strive never to give offense, unless there's some fun in it. But it is impossible, knowing something about a subject, to respect someone who knows nothing about it, who tries actively to learn wrong things about it, who despises those who do know something about it, and who takes offense when that abject, willful, belligerent ignorance is pointed out. Just sayin'.

Wow - it really doesn't take much over there, does it. Banned from AoA. I should get a certificate.....

How about formaldehyde in flu shots?

How about it? How about you look up how much it actually is, cupcake?

if the government steps in and makes you have shots...what next will they make you do for the greater good of the rest of the country?

Get car insurance?
Not drive drunk?
Not smoke around your kids?
Not build a nuclear reactor in my back yard?

What part of not endangering others are you having trouble with? By your logic, if I build a breeder reactor in my back yard, my neighbors should just move if they have a problem with it, right?

I'm willing to bet that "Doctor" Nikki does not work in a public school system.

"Doctor" Nikki has the "choice" of not vaccinating her children, by claiming a religious or philosophical exemption if she resides in the 48 states that allow these exemptions, for entry into a public school. "Doctor" Nikki will also have her unvaccinated children barred from public school, in the event of an outbreak of a vaccine-preventable disease. The barring of unvaccinated children is part of the public health law in all 50 states.

"Doctor" Nikki sounds like a libertarian who does care a whit about kids in our society who have real medical reasons that are medical contraindications against some or all childhood vaccines.

Give it up "Doctor" Nikki...you are out of your league here and take you PhD-Education degree and stuff it where you pull your "factoids" from.

Where is nurse Claire?...I was hoping to engage her.

Orac...NVIC does not claim that the DTaP vaccine is more dangerous than the disease. Their position is that the vaccine comes with risks and that consumers have the right to know the risks vs. benefits and make their own choice. The studies you posted do not translate to "no risk" associated with the vaccines. Also, when FDA determines that a drug is "safe" that does not mean without risk. Their definition is benefit outweighs risk....i.e. risk still exists and consumers have a right to know what the risks are.

Nikki, you make me laugh, or "LOL" as you silly kids text it nowadays. Here's some simple advice that even a PhD in Education should know: Write coherently, or no one will believe that you have any sort of degree whatsoever. It's called referent authority. It's the same authority that well-versed and highly irrational writers at AoA pass on to their readers, tricking them into thinking that there is some form of reason to their (or "there" as you kids text it) arguments.

As for not knowing anyone, you are incorrect. I know several people who comment here regularly. I correspond with them outside of this blog. Heck, I even know their emails, phone numbers, and have seen their family pictures.

Just the other day I was talking to a colleague who has been in public health for decades. He was telling me how I have it "easy" because the Hib (Haemophilus influenzae B) vaccine is very safe and effective. I don't have to investigate outbreaks of children with meningitis from it. I don't have to tell parents that their child died a suffocating death from it. Apparently, I'm missing out on all that "fun". (Which isn't really fun, hence the quotes. Just wait for that comment to be copied and pasted and placed out of context over at AoA.)

I still have to work 14+ hour days sometimes because some jerk parent decided not to vaccinate their child and the child ends up getting measles after an overseas trip (or even a trip to Canada). Then the jerk parent takes said child to a daycare in a part of our country that has rates of HIV/AIDS that are comparable to some countries in Africa. (Why worry if your kid is vaccinated, right?)

Well, guess what, vaccinated HIV+ babies don't get to enjoy the level of immunity that vaccines would give them and they don't get to enjoy the level of overall health that people with PhDs in education can provide for their children. So my epidemiological "fun" is in explaining to a close friend and parent (albeit adoptive) of a child with HIV why their child must be under very careful observation for 21 days, or why they need to give the child immune globulin.

Of course, anecdotes are not data. For that, I'll refer you to the fact that Rubella (German Measles) is now back in Europe after being successfully eradicated through the MMR vaccine. A sentinel event happened there recently in that a child was born with severe malformations because the (unvaccinated) mother had Rubella. The disease is also back in several Pacific islands.

So, go ahead, ask all the honest questions that you want, ignoring the science and defending the quacks. You all (antivaxers) did it in the 70's (Google "Daycroft School Polio 1972"), again in the 80's (Google "Vaccine Roulette"), the 90's (Google "Andrew Wakefield Fraud"), the 2000's (Google "Jenny McCarthy Body Count"), and now in the 2010's. Unlike some antivaccine agents who are working on an MPH, I fully embrace the science and the truths that epidemiology has revealed, and so do dozens of my closest colleagues and friends.

Indeed, we are many.

@baglady

Did you already call the network to protest?

By Sid Offit (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

I just commented on this because I have a right to be informed..to say no...and to spread them out whether you like it or not.

But you're already "informed" (albeit in the Chatty Cathy sense of the term), so this doesn't make any sense. So, cui bono?

@Asshat

Why do you care?

@Chris

Is this "adult" enough for you?

Measles-mumps-rubella-varicella combination vaccine and the risk of febrile seizures.
Klein NP, Fireman B, Yih WK, Lewis E, Kulldorff M, Ray P, Baxter R, Hambidge S, Nordin J, Naleway A, Belongia EA, Lieu T, Baggs J, Weintraub E; Vaccine Safety Datalink.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20587679

I don't need to prove that vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases since I never said they were. I would like to know where you got that from? Stop jumping to conclusions and getting so defensive.

I was comparing the mandates of seat belts to vaccine mandates. I said that vaccines have side effects and you called me out. I provided a "real science" study that says the MMRV vaccine causes more seizures than the regular MMR. Is that "sciencey" and "adult" enough for you? Seizures are a side effect of vaccination.

Bob Schecter,

Is it weird if I write that I missed you? Haven't seen you around here in a while. I try to read your stuff on AoA but the censorship over there (of which I'm sure you disapprove) gives me nosebleeds. How the hell are you, anyway?

@Lisa

See, when you google some study to back up your claims, it is dishonest to not put it in context. The study you cite compared MMR only vs. MMR+Varicella. It didn't compare the risk of febrile seizures in kids who had the MMR and in kids who got measles, mumps, or rubella because they were not vaccinated. You're trying to show that the vaccine causes febrile seizures. Of course it does. But does it do so at a higher rate than the diseases it prevents? And how does this disqualify vaccines?

CONCLUSIONS:

Among 12- to 23-month-olds who received their first dose of measles-containing vaccine, fever and seizure were elevated 7 to 10 days after vaccination. Vaccination with MMRV results in 1 additional febrile seizure for every 2300 doses given instead of separate MMR + varicella vaccines. Providers who recommend MMRV should communicate to parents that it increases the risk of fever and seizure over that already associated with measles-containing vaccines.

Hmmm... I may be missing something, but I don't read anywhere in there that MMR vaccine (or even the MMR+) should NOT be given. Can you point me to it, please?

Your post has a lot of adjectives and emotional statements and no references to respected sources. I believe that is the definition of what you call pseudo-science.

On the other hand, if you look at NVIC's website it is all backed up by published studies. If you have a problem with the studies these studies, perhaps you should write to the publisher.

I really don't see anything wrong with encouraging people to find out whether vaccines are good or bad for them. It is inconceivable that they would be good for everyone. I was never warned and it turns out vaccines are very very bad for me. I almost died because I was never warned. I did not know vaccines could do that.

Good, Ren. Thanks for asking. I try to get over here when I see the vaccine issue but it's been busy with the holidays and all. Haven't been blogging either. I don't know how Orac does it. I expect to get back to it in January though. Hope to see you there.

By Sid Offit (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

@Mimi

Quick question. Do the CDC, AAP, NIH, WHO use "a lot of adjectives and emotional statements and no references to respected sources"?

YES OR NO

If no, they why do they completely oppose what Barb et al are trying to do (which is to discourage vaccination overall)? Does the NVmIC know something that well-respected public health and medicine authorities don't know?

If yes, can you point me to such postings? Thank you.

@Sid

I'm always around, Bob.

It would be great to have a point-counterpoint blog with you and me going at it. You with your crazy conspiracy theories and me with my "authoritarian" "drank the kool-aid and effin' loved it" scientific facts. Alas, I'm not allowed to blog.

Which reminds me... All of the comments I make here do not represent the thoughts, opinions, or feelings of my four (or five, is it?) employers. Though I don't think the guy that runs the apple orchard cares much. He's older than dirt!

Nikki,
People claiming that formaldehyde in vaccines is toxic is a personal bugbear of mine, so when you write:

How about formaldehyde in flu shots?

I have to point out that a flu vaccine contains 0.1 milligrams of formaldehyde, yet your body (and everyone else's) produces more than that every single second through normal metabolic processes. If you read this article you will find that metabolic processes such as O - and N âdemethylation reactions of endogenous and exogenous molecules generate formaldehyde which is then metabolised to formic acid. It is estimated that the human body turns over 31 to 59 grams of formaldehyde every day, which works out to an average of 0.5 milligrams of formaldehyde every second. Normal blood levels of formaldehyde are 0.3 milligrams per liter. Yet you claim that 0.1 milligrams is harmful?

Clearly injecting someone with such a tiny quantity of a substance that their body constantly produces naturally and that it easily detoxifies cannot possibly harm them. It is ridiculous to claim it can.

If you have been lied to about this, what else have you been lied to about?

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

Just for Nikki, PhD:

I hereby declare my serious lack of education, having never finished college or gotten a degree.

I struggle to understand the complexities of cellular biology, genetics, neuro chemistry, immunology and endocrine function. I do not have years of education and more years of practical experience.

What I do have are questions that arise constantly:
"How does X work?" "What is the mechanism?" "What are the implications?".

and yes
"What are the risks?".

On the positive side, I did work in a laboratory of a pediatric hospital and had some marvelous coworkers who would talk about their work. The one impression I came away with is "Damn, medicine is COMPLICATED!". A sickle patient with a history of packed cell transfusions could create antibodies that made finding a compatible cross match difficult. Premature neonates who required so many tests that they had to be transfused to make up the lost volume. Parents who refused treatment. Parents who asked for every possible treatment.

Nothing is completely safe. Few things are simple. Ask questions and treat any simple, pat answers with great skepticism. Are vaccines 100% safe? Of course not. Are they 100% effective? No. It's impossible for them to be, because there are too many variables.

Now...
with your PhD in Education, can you tell me how we can get people to understand the above paragraph and accept it?

Mimi,

if you look at NVIC's website it is all backed up by published studies

If you go to PubMed you will find over 200,000 studies that mention vaccines. Among those studies you will find some that seem to support whatever crazy idea you care to propose. Some studies are badly designed, some get weird results by chance, some studies are distorted by people who should know better, and/or appear in journals with poor standards.

The trouble with organizations like NVIC is that they pick a position, then look for evidence to support it, ignoring all the evidence that goes against their position. People like you go there and read the studies they cite and you come to believe them because what they say is backed up by scientific studies. But they don't give you the full picture. They don't mention the vast majority of studies that show that vaccination is effective and safe, and that serious side effects are extremely rare, so rare that in many cases scientists are still debating whether they happen at all.

It annoys me to see intelligent people being misled in this way. It would be like showing you hundreds of court cases in which red-headed people had committed a crime yet not mentioning the thousand of cases where brunettes and blondes had committed crimes. Skewed data leads to sensible people coming to the wrong conclusions.

I suggest you go to PubMed and look for vaccine studies, or Google "Cochrane vaccine safety" to find some review studies that look at all the evidence and take a good hard look at its quality and what it says. (I know some people don't like Cochrane, but it's a good place to start to see all the available studies on a vaccine in one place, even of their conclusions are sometimes questionable.)

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

@ Ren

1. If you go back through my posts you can plainly see that I am not disqualifying vaccines or saying they shouldn't be given. I was merely stating that there are side effects.

2. Most of my posts have been about informed consent and public ads. Actually pushing for the CDC and AAP to do a better job addressing and educating parents on the vaccine subject.

3. I never said that the MMR shouldn't be given. Chris asked me to provide a study that showed seizures as a side effect of vaccination and I did.

Geesh, accusations uncalled for.

Mimi@148:

Your post has a lot of adjectives and emotional statements and no references to respected sources. I believe that is the definition of what you call pseudo-science.

I literally laughed out loud at this. Oh noes, the adjectives! The horror! The horror!

By The Christian Cynic (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

It seems that Nikki, PhD has run afoul of Pablo's Firtst Law of Internet Discussion: always assume someone participating knows more about the topic than you do.

Unfortunately for Nikki, that's not even all that close. She comes in with her education PhD and MDC education in vaccines (apparently) and doesn't realize she is in the mix with folks with PhDs in all fields of science, from basic sciences to applied sciences like epidemology and pathology, and others with all sorts of medical degrees and experience. She thinks she will dazzle us (I include myself) with great arguments from her PhD authority, not realizing that we've heard it all before, and her PhD doesn't mean much.

She may be an expert in "education" but as science goes,she is ignorant. The prudent approach would be to ask and learn.

Pablo's First Law. Respect it.

By Marry Me, Mindy (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

Nikki is concern trolling with every single invalidated argument of the anti-vaxxers, gish-galloping, and moving goalpoats at a frantic pace. She should go into Wikipedia as "Example 1: Anti-Vax dupe".

The ellipses are killing me though. Think green! Preserve the ellipse!

By attack laurel (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

@Lisa

1) You're defending NVIC and trying to over-inflate the side-effects of vaccines without placing them in perspective of what the actual disease is capable of. That's anti-vaccine.

2) The CDC and AAP couldn't do a better job if they tried. The science is there. The evidence is there. It's all there. Go read it. It's right there! If they try to put up a sign on Times Square, Lisa, YOU would say that they're shoving vaccines down out throats. Don't insult out collective intelligence by writing that you wouldn't.

I used to have my own blog where I wrote about topics to do with science and public health, and you know what? Some goddamn antivaxer (who swore up and down that he wasn't such) went and whined like a little girl to all my bosses at one of my jobs. I was given the option to shut it with my own brand of "insolence" or just look for another job where my "exposure" wouldn't embarrass the higher-ups.

So can you imagine the "righteous outrage" if anyone from CDC or any other organization even tries to be like AoA or NVIC? Orac is a saint for putting himself out here like he does with his writing. (That, and his bosses are awesome.)

3. This is what Chris wrote at #130:

Now you need to show us exactly what those rates are, and do it with real evidence. Now do not try to get out with silly excuses.

My son experienced seizures due to a real disease, now you need to prove that vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases.

Did you do that? Did you show what the rates of febrile seizures are due to vaccines? Nope. You only showed us that there seems to be an increased rate from one vaccine to another. And did you show us that the vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases? Of course, no, you did not. You only showed us that there seems to be an increased rate of febrile seizures from one vaccine to another.

You posted a link to (probably) the first study that came up when you searched for MMR and febrile seizures or some such. You didn't put that study in context in your reply. You played a game of intellectual dishonesty.

I like Bill Gates' idea. Create a vaccine that once taken will always have to be taken every year to avoid getting malaria and the only people who make the vaccine are the onwers of the company or have large financial gain to make from it. Nice. now, where are the people who are always shouting about Imperialist Capitalists when we need them?

Very Small List of Imperialist Capitalist Pigs:

nancy pelosi
Harry Reid
John Kerry
George Soros
Ted Turner
Bill gates
Maurice Strong
Most of the Kennedys and Rockefellers
Most union thug leaders
Some CEOs of big name companies like GE, Shell, Exxon, etc.

None of these people ever see wall street protestors ranting at their doorsteps. I suppose you have to be rich or something for that to happen though.

By Medicien Man (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

And Nikki, every single one of us who is at risk for shingles wishes we weren't. I'd take any supposed risk of vaccination over a recurring misery that will probably last me the rest of my life. I'd also like the three weeks back that I lost to measles, where I was so sick I couldn't be moved. My mother would like the friend back that ended up in an iron lung for life when she caught polio, and oh, her brother who died from rotavirus.

Or, you could shut up and admit that you've been duped by the antivax crowd with a bunch of scare-mongering crap that can't stand up to scientific scrutiny. For a PhD in education, you're displaying a remarkable lack of reading comprehension.

By attack laurel (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

Nikki: "Cracks me up when vaccinated kids get the virus any way"

Love your sense of humor, dear.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

I'm in total agreement with Krebiozen:

one of the most shocking things that I discovered when I started to review alt med (c. January 2000) was how little the material resembled what I had studied in grad school ( esp. physio, developmental, mental illness) which tells me that they are highly selective in choosing studies to discuss.

Other types of misrepresentation are common: people are portrayed as experts ( see my comment@ 14) when they often have studied other areas or possess entirely alternative credentials. Sometimes the studies quoted have too few subjects, confounding factors, or methodological problems. These are not apparent unless you have spent a great deal of time studying research design, statistics, etc. Most of the people I talk about have not had this training and their audience has had even less: the structure of their thought about a topic is a-skew and their emphases are odd.

Another advantage of a formal education is that experts ( professors, texts) point you in the right direction and teach you how to critique research. The University of Google does not provide these amenities. Thus, the structure of thought about a topic seems askew and emphases appear slanted.( see NaturalNews; Age of Autism; ProgressiveRadioNetwork). Oh, I'm sure I'll be called "brain-washed".

Anyone can write anything: that doesn't make it meaningful or useful. To be relevant, research and journalism must stand up to scrunity: Can this be replicated? What are your sources? Mind if I ask some questions? Otherwise it is just *one person writing* : and there are a whole lot of those.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

@Ren

Chris asked for a side effect, I gave it. Case closed. Where did I over-inflate the side effects of vaccines? I was asked to show seizures as a side effect and I did.
You can rant and rave about me all you want, but if citing a study that proves a side effect has gotten you into such a tizzy-I am at a loss.
I am not playing a game of "intellectual dishonesty."
The CDC and AAP have obviously not done that great of a job if parents are looking to NVIC for their vaccine information.

Have a wonderful night.

Oops! mine @ 163- edit fail. What can I say? I'm tired.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

Chris asked for a side effect, I gave it. Case closed.

You were asked this:

And which vaccines cause those? Which ones cause seizures and encephalitis more than the diseases?

Case what?

The CDC and AAP have obviously not done that great of a job if parents are looking to NVIC for their vaccine information.

Just like how astronomers are at fault for astrology, right? They should just do a better job explaining.

My education is limited to an english degree, so I'm sure I'm out of my field.

By dedicated lurker (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

@Lisa

Notice how I copy and pasted EXACTLY what Chris asked for, and you still write that he was asking about seizures as a side-effect. He wasn't. He asked you, very clearly, if those side-effects were more likely with the vaccine or with the disease. So, no, you WERE NOT asked "to show seizures as a side effect".

In a tizzy... Ha! I'm as cool as cucumber on a summer night.

I seriously question Dr. Offit's information on aluminum in vaccines.
As I learned in nutrition classes, aluminum is NOT an essential metal-it is however
abundant.
. Quote from Children's Hosp-Dr. Offit-
"Aluminum is considered to be an essential metal with quantities fluctuating naturally during normal cellular activity. It is found in all tissues and is also believed to play an important role in the development of a healthy fetus. This is supported by several findings:
* During healthy pregnancies the amount of aluminum in a woman's blood increases.
* The amount of aluminum in the blood of the fetus increases between four and a half and six months gestation and again at eight months gestation.
* At delivery, the blood of full-term infants contains more aluminum than the mother's, but it decreases shortly after delivery.
* The blood of premature infants has more aluminum than that of full-term infants.
* The concentrations of aluminum in brain tissue are high during gestation and highest immediately after birth.
* The breast milk of moms with premature infants contains more aluminum than that of moms who carried their babies to term.

@Nikki:

Squalene...Aluminum....animal tissue cells....and the list goes on and on and on.

Animal tissue cells are toxins? Squalene, which is produced and needed by the body, is a toxin? Maybe the dreaded sodium chloride should be included in your list?

By Matthew Cline (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

@Nikki:

"Squalene...Aluminum....animal tissue cells....and the list goes on and on and on."

Gotta watch out for that Dihydrogen Monoxide too! I read on a website one time that it causes all sorts of diseases.

A few words of advice for Nikki, Kim, and the other first-time visitors to this website.

I found the origin of Pablo's First Law Of Internet Discussion, ("Regardless of the topic, assume someone on the board knows more about it than you do.") and it is preceded by a few words from PZ:

As this is a science blog, a greater proportion of the readers and commenters here well- educated, and, if not scientists, are reasonably well-versed in logic, observation, empiricism, debate, and rationality. As such, their responses will likely be pointed, eloquent, articulate, and highly opinionated.

Any comments you make will be judged, and often judged harshly for grammar, intellectual consistency, knowledge of the subject addressed, and openness of tone. Get used it; this is the deep end, not a wading pool.

Pablo's Preface to his law:

"This place is for discussion, and, as such, your opinion is welcome. However, other people's opinions are also welcome, including their opinion that your opinion is silly or wrong."

@89 - Sorry I'm a bit late responding. I was actually referring to the fact that, in certain kinds of accidents, the restraint the seatbelt provides can be more of a hazard than a help - hence the 'risk factor'.

@170
Hurm. You're right, that doesn't sound quite right. I'm going to shoot them a question to see what they meant by it.

By missmayinga (not verified) on 28 Dec 2011 #permalink

Nikki, my Ph.D. is in biochemistry. Most of your arguments are seriously flawed.

Pam:

Orac...NVIC does not claim that the DTaP vaccine is more dangerous than the disease. Their position is that the vaccine comes with risks and that consumers have the right to know the risks vs. benefits and make their own choice.

Then why do they leave out the following studies from their page on whooping cough/pertussis:

Vaccine. 2012 Jan 5;30(2):247-53. Epub 2011 Nov 12.
Lack of association between childhood immunizations and encephalitis in California, 1998-2008.

Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.
Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.

Vaccine. 2007 Jun 21;25(26):4875-9. Epub 2007 Mar 16.
Do immunisations reduce the risk for SIDS? A meta-analysis.

Expert Rev Vaccines. 2005 Apr;4(2):173-84.
Acellular pertussis vaccines in Japan: past, present and future.

Pam, do go up and read the post I linked to, I explain why NVIC is essentially lying through omission.

Mimi:

On the other hand, if you look at NVIC's website it is all backed up by published studies. If you have a problem with the studies these studies, perhaps you should write to the publisher.

Look at my post to Pam. Check out the the comment I made earlier today. I showed that NVIC cherry picks those studies, and deliberately leaves out recent ones that prove that vaccinating for pertussis does not cause encephalopathy, and does not cause SIDS (it even protects against SIDS).

The issue we have with NVIC is that they refuse to use the studies that do not say what they want them to say!

seriously nikki, what about formaldehyde? What about DNA? What about animal tissues? What about aliens? Do you have a point?

@ Offal: When Orac blogs about "fire science" someone will tweet you...in the meantime...buzz off.

@ cvl: Thanks for linking to the NY Times Op-Ed...it is an excellent site and too bad "Doctor" Nikki and others here don't read it.

The US has Barbara Loe Fisher and the NVIC. Australia has Meryl Dorey and the Australian Vaccination Network (AVN).

Dorey wrangled a talk at a big folk festival in Australia and skeptics and public health advocates known as StopAVN went into action. They failed to get Dorey's talk ousted, so (among other things) they raised the money to have an banner towed over the festival for the duration of Dorey's talk.

Here's one account"

http://www.mochucksmusings.blogspot.com/2011/12/look-up-in-sky.html

Lisa:

I think seat belt vs vaccine mandate is a tough sell. For one, a seat belts known risks include maybe a strap mark on the flesh, not seizures or induced encephalitis.

Chris:

And which vaccines cause those? Which ones cause seizures and encephalitis more than the diseases? Please post a citation, similar in format to the one I posted earlier ...

Lisa, posts study that says:

MMRV vaccine recipients (83,107) were compared with recipients of MMR + varicella vaccines (376,354). Seizure and fever significantly clustered 7 to 10 days after vaccination with all measles-containing vaccines but not after varicella vaccination alone. Seizure risk during days 7 to 10 was higher after MMRV than after MMR + varicella vaccination (relative risk: 1.98 [95% confidence interval: 1.43-2.73]). Supplementary analyses yielded similar results. The excess risk for febrile seizures 7 to 10 days after MMRV compared with separate MMR + varicella vaccination was 4.3 per 10,000 doses (95% confidence interval: 2.6-5.6).

Yet, this paper says:

Febrile seizures. Febrile seizures occur in 0.1%â2.3% of children with measles in the United States and England [75, 77, 124â127] and are usually benign and not associated with residual damage.

That is around one in a thousand to over two per a hundred. That is a whole lot more than 4.3 per ten thousand!

That paper then continues to say:

Postinfectious encephalomyelitis (PIE) occurs in 13 per 1000 infected persons, usually 3â10 days after onset of rash [39, 131].

Whoa! I would say that is a bit more severe than febrile seizures. Don't you agree? Oh, and it gets better:

As many as 25% of people with PIE due to measles die, and â¼33% of survivors have lifelong neurological sequelae, including severe retardation, motor impairment, blindness, and sometimes hemiparesis [39, 131].

Well, isn't that lovely. You go around blithely whinging about the seizures and encephalitis caused by vaccines, but conveniently forget how much more dangerous some of the diseases actually are. This is exactly the modus operandi of NVIC, which (as I have noted multiple times in the comments here) scaremongers about the vaccine, but forgets to mention what actually happens when you get the disease.

Lisa:

3. I never said that the MMR shouldn't be given. Chris asked me to provide a study that showed seizures as a side effect of vaccination and I did.

Lisa:

Chris asked for a side effect, I gave it. Case closed. Where did I over-inflate the side effects of vaccines? I was asked to show seizures as a side effect and I did.

You know what is worse than showing your email address online in a comment thread (which Pam did accidentally): misrepresenting what someone else said, especially when it is still there for everyone to see.

And what is worse is keeping up with the lie (and yes, it is a lie) even after the comment is quoted verbatim back to you.

You see I said, highlighting a crucial word:

And which vaccines cause those? Which ones cause seizures and encephalitis more than the diseases?

Did you miss the word "more"? Or do you need someone to explain what it means?

A word of advice: the next time you claim a vaccine has a side effect, be sure to explain exactly how often it happens when compared to the actual disease, with real references.

Oh, and another word of advice: don't change the meaning of another person's comment. That is not only not good form, it makes you a liar.

Nikki:

As for what toxins....are you serious or just that ill informed? How about formaldehyde in flu shots? Squalene...Aluminum....animal tissue cells....and the list goes on and on and on.

So what about formaldehyde? Are you going to insist that we stop all cell processes so that nasty stuff is no longer created as needed for cell metabolism?

Oh, and the squalene! Oh noes! Would you prefer we removed the children's livers so that nasty stuff will cease being created as a precursor to cholesterol?

And seriously, where do you get food not grown in soil with minerals containing aluminum? I really want to know? Oh, and have you ever skinned a knee in dirt? Guess what got into the scrapes: aluminum!

And you are right the shots do not go directly into your vein....i am sorry that you are being so literal and i did not make my point more clear. However...when injected into the muscle and fatty tissues they're absorbed and metabolized into the blood directly. One does not need a degree in medicine to know this.

The reason they are not injected into veins to keep them from getting into the bloodstream directly. Your immune system needs time to learn about the weakened pathogens to protect you from the full pathogens.

You might want to actually take a basic course in biology.

Marry Me, Mindy:

Unfortunately for Nikki, that's not even all that close. She comes in with her education PhD and MDC education in vaccines (apparently)

Wait, MDC? Aaagh! I bought one copy of sMothering in the early 1990s and tossed it into the recycling bin! I was shocked at the incredible bad medical advice, including one with chiropractors claiming to cure ear infections.

Perhaps those coming from sMothering Dot Commune should read this:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/01/mothering_a_bastion_of_quacke…

Wait, MDC? Aaagh!

Well, in style, but I didn't find any links out from there, and the style is as common as dirt (which does not contain C. tetani spores unless you live on a manure-producing farm, of course). Such conduct might even fall under the MDC "other forums" prohibition, but it's been a while.

Standard Vaccine Skeptic Meme:

X got the disease even thought they were VACCINATED!
[cue triumphant AHA!]

Often refers to the flu vaccine, which usually contains only three types of the many types of influenzae A and B, and therefore leaves anyone vaccinated vulnerable to every other types. It's simple science: Getting vaccinated against A, B and C does not protect you against X, Y and Z.

I've also seen this used with regard to pertussis. The immunity from the pertussis only lasts until a person's late teens to early twenties, so unless adults receive a pertussis booster: "vaccinated" does not equal "has immunity".

Finally, receiving a vaccine does not confer instant immunity. IIRC, it takes from two to four weeks for immunity to develop. This leads to the interesting paradox of people claiming "The vaccine gave me the disease!" and/or "The vaccine didn't protect me!". Most commonly seen WRT the flu shot.

Honestly, I wish the anti vaccine crowd put as much energy into understanding how vaccines and immune response work as they do creating and supporting their chosen narrative: Vaccines Are SCARY!

Before I forget, Meryl Dorey of the Australian (anti-) Vaccination Network appeared at the Woodford Folk Festival. She was originally going to give a talk on Vaccination and Autism, but due to protests this was changed to a debate. The Stop the AVN page on Facebook has the details.
Long story short: it looks like Dorey got thrashed.

joshsmom,

I seriously question Dr. Offit's information on aluminum in vaccines.
As I learned in nutrition classes, aluminum is NOT an essential metal-it is however
abundant.

Perhaps a nutrition class is not the best source of information to challenge a world expert on such matters. There was some discussion about this here recently. I found some references that seem to suggest that aluminum is now considered an essential trace element, for example the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations says here:

Boron, chromium, manganese, nickel, tin, vanadium, molybdenum, arsenic, lithium, aluminium, strontium, cesium and silicon are regarded as new trace elements in the sense that they have only recently been considered essential in human diets.

Also the WebElements Periodic Table states that:

Aluminium may be involved in the action of enzymes such as succinic dehydrogenase and d-aminolevulinate dehydrase (involved in porphyrin synthesis.

I can't find any solid citations that prove that aluminum is an essential element in humans and even if it is, it is so common deficiency is extremely unlikely. Aluminum is generally only significant as a long-term problem in people with impaired kidney function as they have problems excreting it and they can accumulate high levels.

It is worth noting that normal blood aluminum levels are around 5 micrograms per liter and the increase in this level caused by injection of aluminum adjuvants is so small (estimated at around 0.05 micrograms per liter in a human) that analytical techniques have only recently become sensitive enough to measure it. The Supra-Regional Assay Service in the UK says that levels exceeding 100 micrograms per liter in renal patients "indicate the need for an increased monitoring frequency and health surveillance". Clearly the tiny increase in blood levels caused by vaccination is not a cause for concern.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

What we need now (!!?!?) is passionlessDrone to drop by and clarify again that the problem is we haven't evolved with aluminum, thus its use as an adjuvant must be regarded with suspicion.*

*Aluminum actually was invented in a lab by mad scientists in 1947.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

@Nikki

I advise you stop getting your anti-vaccine talking points from anti-vaccine web sites. They are feeding you a lot of misinformation and fear. For example, your list of supposed toxins. Others have already addressed why these things are not toxic (e.g., the amounts present in vaccines are significantly lower than what your own body produces or is exposed to on a daily basis). One thing that gave me a chuckle and spoke, perhaps more than anything else you've written, to your getting your misinformation from bad sites was your inclusion of squalene in your list.

Unless you're in Europe, where squalene has been used safely for over a decade, you needn't worry about squalene at all. You see, in the U.S., squalene has not been approved for use as an adjuvant in vaccines. So, you will not find any vaccines in the U.S. that contain squalene at all. You can, however, buy dietary supplements of squalene. Click on my name for a bit more info about squalene.

@science mom....what is the harm in spreading out vaccines? It is a known fact that they are grouped together only to ensure the majority of the herd gets them. Make it easy for mom by giving them all at once and baby gets shots.

The problem is knowing what vaccines to delay and understanding the term "toxic". The mere presence of a substance is not tacit for harmful. Dr. Bob eschews combination vaccines for no good reason. He also advocates delaying some vaccines to the point that the diseases are increasing due to refusal or delay. He had several infants and children infected with measles in his own waiting room. And this is the person you wish to take vaccine advice from?

I regress back to my original argument because I know I will never convince any of you that vaccines are bad....and that really is not what I am trying to do. My original point in posting here is that all doctors should be 100% open and honest about what is in the vaccines...so that u all know about monkey kidneys for one reason....but also so you know about ALL toxins and the amount you are injecting into your child's blood....then you as a parent should also be told of the risk of not vaccinating...then you should have the freedom to make a decision. That folks is called informed consent and I bet the majority of you can agree that this did not happen when you took your kids to get their shots.

Sweet pea, there are no monkey kidneys in vaccines. You use the term "toxin" incorrectly and vaccines aren't forced. Information about vaccine excipients and risks are not at all secret. You're either too lazy or ignorant to look at evidence-based sources.

WRT Nikki

I suspect Nikki likes a steady diet of fear and outrage. I like a weekly supplement of What True Believers Believe.

It's entertaining and informational to compare what people Believe versus what science has discovered. Plus I learn a lot by researching claims such as: "aborted fetal tissue!".

What do they mean "aborted fetal tissue"? Are there really dead babies put into a blender and added to vaccines? Wouldn't it be inconvenient to do so? Why would you do such a thing? Doesn't that seem absurd and impractical?

Now "immortal fetal cell lines" used for culturing microorganisms seems reasonable, sane, proven and reliable. Ditto for the monkey kidney cells.

Sigh... I suspect Some People's knowledge of infectious disease and vaccines begins and ends with what they learn on certain web sites, most of which talk about How Bad/Dangerous Vaccines are.

Why not:
Basic Immune Response
Retroviral Infections
The Difference Between Staph and Strep
What Makes Measles So Contagious?

A few things:

I find it funny that anti-vaxxers shriek about squalene: if you google "squalene skin care" you'll discover that this *natural product* is lauded as an alternative to standard issue skin care. It is found naturally in sharks, plants, and er..
people.

About the "monkey kidney" bit ( or is it "bits of monkey kidney"?): this usually tops the list of un-desirable substances found in vaccines and may be accompanied by the phrase, "cancer cells"- this meme, which has been passed around the woo-esphere to frighten people off of vaccines, seems to have been popularised by Janine Roberts' book, "Fear of the Invisible", which is greatly beloved by both anti-vaxxers and HIV/AIDs denialists. A short summary: Don't be afraid of HIV; be very afraid of vaccines.

Krebiozen says: " Perhaps a nutrition class is not the best source of information to challenge a world expert on such matters." Which is good advice if you are a member of the reality-based community-
However, it seems to be par for the course in whimsy-based medicine because nutrition is the be-all and end-all of hypotheses about disease causation as well as cures for the same illnesses. Nutritionists see themselves as superior to doctors, who are portrayed as using unnatural pharmaceuticals to replace "curative" plant-based foods, juices and supplements. The right combination of these products can "cure" cancer, heart disease, SMI, autism, etc, that is , of course after you de-tox/ chelate all of the unnatural toxins out of your contaminated system that interfered with perfect nutrition *in the first place*! "Eat right and you'll never be ill!" Or so they say.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

1) Chris - I don't know that Nikki came from MDC, but I wouldn't be surprised. She completely fits the type - upper middle class, typically educated in the humanities and therefore think they are so smart they also know about science. That's the MO of MDC

2) Re: squalene. When this stuff first was brought up, I was saying that if it weren't in vaccines these same people would be taking supplement tablets of it claiming it would ward off cancer. I was saying that until I discovered that in fact it IS sold as a supplement already!

By Marry Me, Mindy (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

@Mary Me, Mind:

squalene. When this stuff first was brought up, I was saying that if it weren't in vaccines these same people would be taking supplement tablets of it claiming it would ward off cancer. I was saying that until I discovered that in fact it IS sold as a supplement already!

Ah, but when it's injected, that turns it from good to evil!

By Matthew Cline (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

@Ren

Using the names of Government agencies and making an interpretation of something you read somewhere is NOT a reference. You are obviously not familiar with how science works. Statements saying you are against Barbara or anyone else, are not scientific statements. I'd like to see where in the CDC website it says "We hate NVIC!"...and even then, I assure you this is not a scientific statement.

Take a look at the NVIC website look at the published studies they reference, if you don't like it, then perhaps you should read a little more...That's the scientific way...

@Krebiozen

So...let me get this straight. You don't trust published science?

You sort of contradicted yourself there. Do I look at what the majority of studies suggest or do I study the design of the study??

It is well known that the majority of published studies are paid for by pharmaceutical companies. So if I am just going to look at what the majority of the studies say...I don't think that's necessarily a representation of what is really going on. As far as telling people to judge by the design of the study. Most people, including physicians are not qualified to judge. To truly do that we would have to do a lot of statistics work to validate whether the study was done right.

So really the only way to get a decent idea if a study is biased is to look at whether it was done independent of conflict of intrest. When you look at those, you most often find that vaccines are not as safe as they are made out to be and barely effective.

I would have liked to see you critique some of the studies that you think were designed wrong. The truth is you haven't even looked...

@Chris

So if you have two studies that suggest different things, which one do you pick? You say NVIC pick the study that doesn't say what you want them to say? Is that bad?

More recent doesn't necessarily mean better. I find it interesting how all these pro-vaccine people think they know how to pick the GOOD studies out of the bad ones. But so far, I've gotten so many contradicting ideas on what makes a good study, you guys got to get your stuff straight.

Mimi:

Are you just going to wave your hands and pretend posts 178 and 183 do not exist?

Pathetic.

Joshsmom states, "I seriously question Dr. Offit's information on aluminum in vaccines.
As I learned in nutrition classes, aluminum is NOT an essential metal-it is however
abundant."

I seriously DOUBT whether she learned anything of the sort, while in "nutrition" classes...or perhaps she is one of the many "nutrition" practitioners who are unlicensed with a "nutrition degree" from a diploma mill.

Joshsmom, we don't think highly of "nutritionists"...and their websites. Registered Dieticians are licensed by all states and are science-based with a minimum of a 4-year degree and their website "American Dietetic Association" is an excellent site for science-based information.

Lookie here, when I "Google" "aluminum in vaccines", I find amongst the high priority listings, these websites:

NVIC.org

drweil.com

themomcrowds.com

mercola.com

mainstreamparenting.wordpress.com

vactruth.com

askdrsears.com

freethoughtnation.com

Joshsmom...where did you really get your information about aluminum in vaccines?

vaccinating for pertussis does not cause encephalopathy

Ever? I think you misunderstood the article. The was no longer an argument regarding inherent causality in which there since have been an evidence of consistent causal relation (IOM, 1991) but instead you're only arguing about the risk of developing encephalopathy. As per the conclusion of the article, it states:

In this study of more than 2 million children, DTP and MMR vaccines were not associated with an increased risk of encephalopathy after vaccination.

That's not surprising Chris is always misinformed.

@ Mimi:

You seem to echo several talking points** that are mind-shatteringly familiar to me; actually it appears as if you are quoting Gary Null, chapter and verse. He claims that his ideas are supported by published research, that pharma companies' research is totally unreliable, that people should only consider truly "independent" studies, and he has authored*** articles questioning if vaccines are "safe and effective." It's all there on GaryNull.com/ ProgressiveRadioNetwerk.com.

Now a personal question: did you get this information directly from the woo-meister's mouth or indirectly through other anti-vax websites?

**( paraphrases: published science; pharmaceutical companies' research; independent of COI; physicians are not qualified; vaccines are not as safe, barely effective)
*** *auteured* might be a better word.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

Stu - and she accuses others of ignoring publushed research

By Marry Me, Mindy (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

Mimi:

So if you have two studies that suggest different things, which one do you pick? You say NVIC pick the study that doesn't say what you want them to say? Is that bad?

Actually it is more than two studies. What study on pertussis vaccine and seizures would you like to include? The ones that came before or after the discovery of the genetics of Dravet Syndrome?

Now, you failed to tell us exactly why NVIC left out those papers. Please tell us which ones you think they included that are more well done. Also, while you are at it, list the papers that show the DTaP vaccine is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis.

Please remember that pertussis killed ten babies in California, plus several other around the country. Also remember when the Soviet Union broke up the vaccine schedules of Russia, Ukraine and other former countries of the USSR. This brought on a diphtheria epidemic that killed thousands:
J Infect Dis. 2000 Feb;181 Suppl 1:S244-8.
Implications of the diphtheria epidemic in the Former Soviet Union for immunization programs.

So you are now making the claim that NVIC is not cherry picking, so you should prove their fearmongering is valid. Just list the title, journal and dates of those papers (just make sure they are not written by anyone whose license to practice medicine has been questioned, especially one who only has a BA, and is being investigated for practicing medicine without a license).

Thingy, could you be more specific about which term you're redefining now? Because I think going from

In this study of more than 2 million children, DTP and MMR vaccines were not associated with an increased risk of encephalopathy after vaccination.

to

vaccinating for pertussis does not cause encephalopathy

is eminently reasonable. What entry in my loon-English dictionary am I missing?

By stuv.myopenid.com (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

@ Mimi: Where have you been...to get your information about vaccines...any of the websites that I listed above?

Why didn't you take the time to read the report from the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations Report? Perhaps you did read it, but with your non-existent rational thinking processes and your non-science background, reading an extensive report just isn't within your limited skills set.

What is your particular education background, your credentials, your licensing in a field of medical/physical sciences and your employment, past or present...in any field that gives you that "special expertise" to comprehend the science of immunology and vaccines?

Not very many here open for a real discussion and those who are seem to be attacked! You all are over the top in your efforts to prove your point, so busy talking and thinking about what you will say next that you fail to hear what anyone else is saying. Your belief in the power of vaccines can only be compared to a Christian's diehard belief in God, unwavering faith. Hey, I guess you have to have faith in something. I just hope you all never have to be tested on all of these claims you make about vaccines being good. I bet the farm on the fact that if anyone you ever love is injured by vaccines you will either change your story or be too pig headed and insist the cause was anything other than the magic cure all vaccine.

Regardless of what anyone here has a degree in, or does not have a degree in, the fact remains that as Americans we all have a right to know the real risks and benefits of all medical procedures and medications we take. As of today this is not the case. For example, many  people still think you have to have the shots for your child to enter school and are not aware of the waivers because there is no open dialogue taking place about a parents rights and the risks involved. That is the real issue at hand!

As for toxins...hey you go ahead and inject your body with "healthy" doses of squalene even though the CDC has admitted a possible connection with Gulf War illness. I think I will pass and take my chances with the flu and just increase my vitamin D instead. Oh wait, do all of you genius medical people here not know of the benefit of vitamin D in fighting the flu and how this is actually more successful in flu protection because as someone mentioned above the shot only has three strains of the virus? Do you also know that when the CDC changed their recommendation that pregnant women now get the flu shot even though in the past they did not want them getting it, the miscarriage rate rose 700%! I bet each woman who lost her baby will tell you she'd rather have taken her chances with the flu but hindsight is always 20/20.

As for formaldehyde, that is a known carcinogen and is suspected in being highly toxic to your liver, immune system, reproductive system, respiratory system etc. this is used in embalming fluid for Pete's sake. If you want to stand in line for that shot, that is your decision.

Now aluminum...yes it occurs in nature in small doses. However in shots babies receive multiple doses of aluminum containing shots: hep b given at birth, 2, and 6 months of age has 250 mcgs per shot, the DTap shot given at 2,4,6,and 15 months each contain 625 mcgs of aluminum, the Hib vaccine given at 2,4, and 12 months each contain 225 mcgs per dose, the pneumococcal vaccine is given at 2, 4,6, and 12 months each contain 125 mcgs, Hep A given at 12 &18 months each contain 250 mcgs. Babies who follow this recommended schedule will receive nearly 5000 mcgs (5mg) of aluminum in their first 18 months of life which is a proven neurotoxin even in small doses when their immune systems are not even fully developed. 

The FDA admits that levels this high can be toxic to kidneys and are not commonly found in nature. I don't think you get 5000 mcgs of aluminum by scraping your knee in the dirt. But hey, if you want to play Russian roulette with your kid go for it.  By the way, this can be verified by reading those package inserts that someone above said were boring. Talk about naive. you do not want to read the insert because it is boring so you just assume that what you are giving your kids is safe? That is being a lazy parent! Maybe you need to spend less time commenting on blogs and more time reading about things that affect your children.

As for this post, please do not bother copying and pasting portions to reply to and take out of context as you have done to others here. I will not be returning to read your rude and snide comments because I know you can not change ones beliefs and you darn sure can not change narrow mindedness when one is not willing to even consider that maybe, just maybe the world is not flat!! God bless each and every one of you and I pray that your convictions do not one day bite you on your bum.

Thingy, could you be more specific about which term you're redefining now?

This (no redefinition).

In 1991, the Institute of Medicine (IOM) issued a report entitled Adverse Effects of Pertussis and Rubella Vaccines. Congress mandated that report and the study that led to it as part of the 1986 National Childhood Vaccine Injury Compensation Act (Public Law 99-660). The report reviewed the scientific literature bearing on the causal relation between diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and pertussis vaccine (DPT) and 18 putative serious adverse effects of DPT. Perhaps the most controversial of all the relations studied was that between DPT and encephalopathy. The committee concluded, âThe evidence is consistent with a causal relation between DPT vaccine and acute encephalopathy, defined in the controlled studies reviewed as encephalopathy, encephalitis, or encephalomyelitisâ (IOM, 1991, p. 118). The committee concluded that the range of excess risk of acute encephalopathy following DPT immunization was on the order of 0.0 to 10.5 per million immunizations.

h_ttp://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=9814&page=3

"As for this post, please do not bother copying and pasting portions to reply to and take out of context as you have done to others here. I will not be returning to read your rude and snide comments because I know you can not change ones beliefs and you darn sure can not change narrow mindedness when one is not willing to even consider that maybe, just maybe the world is not flat!! "

Translation - I'll never ever ever ever change my mind, unlike you closed-minded people!

Ah, so you were just eliding a "my study is better than yours". No problem.

By stuv.myopenid.com (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

There is no evidence that spreading out shots leads to any fewer complications from immunizations. If anything, it prolongs the agony and inconvenience of dragging a kid in the doctor's office for shots for no other reason than that the parents are "true believers" in some unproven science. Most doctors' offices don't schedule spread out shots for the simple reason that they don't have enough appointment spots to do so, and insurance won't pay for multiple visits for shots for no good reason.
StephC, I have a feeling you are one of those parents who doesn't listen to what doctors (or anyone else) are telling you, and you are getting the conversation all "bass ackwards". I also imagine that you think smoking is harmless, but vaccines are a massive plot to kill everyone in the world. I may be wrong.
I would also expect a person with a PHd (sic) in education to use better grammar, but I suppose I was wrong there as well.

As for this post, please do not bother copying and pasting portions to reply to and take out of context as you have done to others here. I will not be returning to read your rude and snide comments because I know you can not change ones beliefs and you darn sure can not change narrow mindedness when one is not willing to even consider that maybe, just maybe the world is not flat!! God bless each and every one of you and I pray that your convictions do not one day bite you on your bum.

Well, then, vaya con Dios.

@krebiozen
re @172 @189
You quote "Aluminium may be involved in the action of enzymes such as succinic dehydrogenase and d-aminolevulinate dehydrase (involved in porphyrin synthesis."

These sentences follow- "Aluminium compounds are toxic to most plants and somewhat toxic to mammals. Aluminium has been linked to Alzheimer's disease (senile dementia)."
Hardly supportive of Dr. Offit's statement.
Where is the proof of what Dr. Offit states?

Gotta love hit-and-run trolls like Jolie who come in, spout off a bunch of BS without any supporting evidence or regard for truth, then leave so they don't have to face the discomfort of discussion with people who actual know what they're talking about. So many errors in her post, I'm not sure where to begin.

Let's see, squalene and GWS I already covered when in my link to antiantivax. Formaldehyde's already been discussed extensively (BTW, know what else is in embalming fluid? Water! Holy crap! Don't want to let any of that in your body! It's used in embalming fluid for Pete's sake.). Her aluminum math is horribly off, since she does not account, at all, for the body's ability to eliminate it (~70% in 5 days, and last I checked, months and years are typically longer than that).

And finally, regarding informed consent and knowing the risks and benefits, apparently she didn't bother to actually read and comprehend the original post or any of the comments discussing this issue.

Talk about recklessly misguided closed-mindedness.

Let's see. Nikki:

Not many here are open to a real discussion.

Jolie:

Not very many here open for a real discussion and those who are seem to be attacked!

And we're off to the races with, mutatis mutandis, pretty much the same script, including the "American rights" trip, insincere invocations of the supreme being to nicey-nice up the "wait till it happens to you" angle, assertions of quasi religiosity, and a big bag of poorly chosen toxinz nuggets.

"Open discussion" in this context appears to be akin to serving some atrocious Vienna sausage casserole over and over in the fervent demand that it someday be appreciated and savored rather than snuck under the table to the dog.

Jolie: "Not very many here open for a real discussion and those who are seem to be attacked!"

Only if "attacked" is a synonym for "had their foolishness roundly debunked". Which it isn't.

"You all are over the top in your efforts to prove your point"

In other words, we are scoring heavily against the same tired old antivax memes. I agree.

"Your belief in the power of vaccines can only be compared to a Christian's diehard belief in God, unwavering faith."

One of the hoariest attempted insults in the playbook. Why do you hate religion?

"Oh wait, do all of you genius medical people here not know of the benefit of vitamin D in fighting the flu and how this is actually more successful in flu protection because as someone mentioned above the shot only has three strains of the virus?"

More successful than what? Not the flu vaccine.

"As for formaldehyde, that is a known carcinogen and is suspected in being highly toxic to your liver, immune system, reproductive system, respiratory system etc. this is used in embalming fluid for Pete's sake."

Please inform your body immediately to stop making formaldehyde as part of its normal metabolism. It apparently is embalming your brain.

"Babies who follow this recommended schedule will receive nearly 5000 mcgs (5mg) of aluminum in their first 18 months of life which is a proven neurotoxin even in small doses"

Aluminum adjuvant in vaccines has not been demonstrated neurotoxic to anyone.

"By the way, this can be verified by reading those package inserts that someone above said were boring. "

Which vaccine package insert alleges that the shot contains neurotoxicity-inducing aluminum? Hint: none.

"Maybe you need to spend less time commenting on blogs and more time reading about things that affect your children."

The irony, it burns.

"As for this post, please do not bother copying and pasting portions to reply to and take out of context as you have done to others here."

Sorry, too late.

" I will not be returning to read your rude and snide comments"

We are devastated, but will endeavor to persevere.

"God bless each and every one of you and I pray"

We remain puzzled that someone as devout as you thinks it's a devastating insult to refer to pro-vaccine folks as religious. Please address this if you ever favor us with your presence again.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

This thread is EPIC! The RI heavyweights laying smackdowns on a whole new collection of altie "they're trying to inject my child with TOXINS!!!!!" handwringers, including a PhD in education who is clearly deficient in both coherency and reading comprehension (plus the odd bleat from the regular nutjobs who infest the vaccine-related posts.) Best discussion in ages. I'm going to make popcorn and come back in a bit.

By Edith Prickly (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

please do not bother copying and pasting portions to reply to and take out of context as you have done to others here.

Name one occurrence.

I will not be returning to read your rude and snide comments

I will bet my child's eyes on that being a lie. So just for fun, allow me to copy and paste your entire post, in context, and reply. The only change I'll make is to take your final paragraph first, because it is so hilarious.

because I know you can not change ones beliefs and you darn sure can not change narrow mindedness when one is not willing to even consider that maybe, just maybe the world is not flat!!

And that would mean something if we were discussing the shape of the planet. Which we are not.

But let's talk about "beliefs", shall we?

God bless each and every one of you and I pray that your convictions do not one day bite you on your bum.

It's exactly this kind of back-handed crap that makes you a crappy Christian, Jolie. Also, Matthew 6:6 says hello.

Not very many here open for a real discussion and those who are seem to be attacked!

This coming from someone who drops in, blathers some easily disproven talking points and states she will never be back. I don't know what the definition of "real discussion" is in your world, Jolie, but here on Earth, this isn't it.

You all are over the top in your efforts to prove your point, so busy talking and thinking about what you will say next that you fail to hear what anyone else is saying.

Really? What did we miss? I think everything has been addressed so far. But I'm sure you'll come up with something that we've never heard before and will blow us away.

Your belief in the power of vaccines can only be compared to a Christian's diehard belief in God, unwavering faith.

I have no idea, I'm an atheist. But wait, aren't you the one praying for us? What the hell is this? Projection, or were you lying about the praying? I bet you were, Jolie. What a crappy Christian you are.

Hey, I guess you have to have faith in something.

No, no I don't. Speak for yourself.

I just hope you all never have to be tested on all of these claims you make about vaccines being good.

Umm, what? "Good"? They're "good" as a hammer is "good": they are tools to achieve a specific objective. The objective is to prevent diseases. Since I'm not in an iron lung from polio, deaf from measles and did not cough myself to death over a period of days or weeks from whooping cough... sure, vaccines are "good".

I bet the farm on the fact that if anyone you ever love is injured by vaccines you will either change your story or be too pig headed and insist the cause was anything other than the magic cure all vaccine.

So we'll either change our minds, or we won't! What a bet, Jolie! *headdesk*

Hey Jolie, I bet my farm on the fact that if anyone you ever love is injured by a preventable childhood disease because the sociopath next door believed some claptrap on the Internet and did not vaccinate their children, you will either change your story or be too pig headed and insist the cause was anything other than the magic childhood disease!

You do know that occurrence of vaccine injury is several orders of magnitudes smaller than injury due to the diseases they prevent, right?

Right?

Not a soul is saying that vaccines are 100% safe. Nothing is. Water isn't. Air isn't. What we are saying is that they are worth the tiny, tiny risk in order to prevent diseases that kill, maim and cripple.

Regardless of what anyone here has a degree in, or does not have a degree in, the fact remains that as Americans we all have a right to know the real risks and benefits of all medical procedures and medications we take.

Yep. That's why the doctor gives you a sheet with all known possible side effects of the vaccine.

Your point?

As of today this is not the case.

Oh, no point. Lies. Let's see.

For example, many people still think you have to have the shots for your child to enter school and are not aware of the waivers

Wow. That sounds like a problem with those "people".

because there is no open dialogue taking place about a parents rights and the risks involved.

Bald assertion. Vague enough to be completely useless. Good job!

That is the real issue at hand!

Wait, are you hitching your wagon to the "NVIC is just providing information" meme? The NVIC site, which has amongst many, many others, this nugget?

"Memorial Day is for remembering those, who have fought and died to defend America and preserve our civil liberties, including freedom of thought, speech, religious belief and conscience. So every Memorial Day I remember the children, who have died after receiving state mandated vaccines, and honor their mothers and fathers, who grieve for them."

I sincerely hope you're not hitching your wagon to that.

As for toxins...hey you go ahead and inject your body with "healthy" doses of squalene even though the CDC has admitted a possible connection with Gulf War illness.

Have you even looked up what those doses are, or are you just repeating what you heard somewhere?

I'm throwing out a wild guess here: you haven't got clue one about what levels of squalene are normal, what levels are associated with any sort of illness, and what levels a child is exposed to through vaccines. Not a single frigging clue.

I think I will pass and take my chances with the flu

Awesome. You'll take chances for anyone you come in contact with as well. The elderly, the immunocompromised, infants... all people that take that chance -- INVOLUNTARILY -- with you.

You are a sociopath.

and just increase my vitamin D instead. Oh wait, do all of you genius medical people here not know of the benefit of vitamin D in fighting the flu and how this is actually more successful in flu protection because as someone mentioned above the shot only has three strains of the virus?

Sweetheart, just because Vitamin D deficiency has been tentatively shown to increase susceptibility to the flu does not mean that taking more does anything. Just because you've read a few Mercola "articles" does not make you an expert, and just because people say things loudly and repeatedly does not make them right.

Hint: when one of the biggest advocates of this "treatment" is the "Vitamin D council", be very wary.

Do you also know that when the CDC changed their recommendation that pregnant women now get the flu shot even though in the past they did not want them getting it, the miscarriage rate rose 700%!

No, I did not know that. I'm throwing out another wild guess here: you don't know that either. You read that somewhere and did not bother to check the facts at all.

See, I just did, and guess what: "A matched case-control study of 252 pregnant women who received TIV within the 6 months before delivery determined no adverse events after vaccination among pregnant women and no difference in pregnancy outcomes compared with 826 pregnant women who were not vaccinated."

I bet each woman who lost her baby will tell you she'd rather have taken her chances with the flu but hindsight is always 20/20.

Yes, totally. If you weren't full of it with that 700% number. If every miscarriage was due to vaccines. But yes, other than that, totally.

As for formaldehyde, that is a known carcinogen and is suspected in being highly toxic to your liver, immune system, reproductive system, respiratory system etc.

I feel another wild guess coming on: you have no idea how much formaldehyde is produced naturally in the body. You have no idea what levels of formaldehyde are associated with carcinogenic effects. You have no idea how much formaldehyde is in vaccines.

Not a single clue.

this is used in embalming fluid for Pete's sake.

You know what else is used in embalming fluid? Ethanol, for Pete's sake! Better tell everyone! Run to the grocery store and yell at everyone buying beer!

If you want to stand in line for that shot, that is your decision.

Why would I stand in line? I just hop over to the CVS on the corner.

Now aluminum...yes it occurs in nature in small doses. However in shots babies receive multiple doses of aluminum containing shots: hep b given at birth, 2, and 6 months of age has 250 mcgs per shot, the DTap shot given at 2,4,6,and 15 months each contain 625 mcgs of aluminum, the Hib vaccine given at 2,4, and 12 months each contain 225 mcgs per dose, the pneumococcal vaccine is given at 2, 4,6, and 12 months each contain 125 mcgs, Hep A given at 12 &18 months each contain 250 mcgs. Babies who follow this recommended schedule will receive nearly 5000 mcgs (5mg) of aluminum in their first 18 months of life which is a proven neurotoxin even in small doses when their immune systems are not even fully developed.

And?

The FDA admits that levels this high can be toxic to kidneys and are not commonly found in nature. I don't think you get 5000 mcgs of aluminum by scraping your knee in the dirt. But hey, if you want to play Russian roulette with your kid go for it.

Okidoki. Again, and?

By the way, this can be verified by reading those package inserts that someone above said were boring.

Wait, what? Weren't you the one complaining about a lack of information? Can't you even keep your narrative straight for more than two paragraphs?

Talk about naive. you do not want to read the insert because it is boring so you just assume that what you are giving your kids is safe?

What are you talking about? Project much?

That is being a lazy parent!

Yes it is, and thank you for accusing us of being so. Of course, it is much better not to vaccinate and to put your own children and others at risk. That's not being lazy at all.

Sociopathic, sure. Lazy, no.

Maybe you need to spend less time commenting on blogs and more time reading about things that affect your children.

We have. You haven't.

By stuv.myopenid.com (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

Ah, so you were just eliding a "my study is better than yours". No problem.

You are an infection promoter, you should know better.

@Edith Prickly

It certainly is one for the books, innit? Personally I'm amazed that Thingy hasn't shown up yet.

By missmayinga (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

Well, speak of the devilfucking dickens.

By missmayinga (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

Soo....apparently now we are at a point where pro-vacciners are saying it is very important to disregard any studies that suggest vaccines could cause harm or be ineffective and not have any other dialog. The CDC, NIH has spoken. DO NOT ASK ANY QUESTIONS! Just do as they say. Fuck democracy. I should do what authorities tell me to!!

All the NVIC is saying in their statement is that people should be informed. That's all. Is that so bad? Why are people so upset about asking question about medications that have real side effects? There is something very wrong about this. Even the insert itself says that there are side effects. Why is it wrong to tell people to look at the insert? WHY?

Oh, by the way, should I ask for my money back? I got vaccinated for Hep B and my antibodies for Hep B came out negative 2 years later.... But I did get very very sick from taking the vaccine.

Or perhaps I should get vaccinated again? And risk getting sick again from the vaccine without any of the proposed benefits.

Ah, so you were just eliding a "my study is better than yours". No problem.

You are an infection promoter, you should know better.

And man you moving the hands or even if your evidence, just of infection promoters like that?

You're barking up the sidewalk. I believe some point is asymptomatic infection like vaccines do you keep them. You've been exposed.

By Th1Th2bot (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

Apparently I missed the part about the miscarriage rate going up 700%. That's interesting, since the normal miscarriage rate is greater than 15%. So if it increased 8-fold, that would mean that all pregnancies after a flu shot ended up as miscarriage.

For some reason, I think that would have been noticed.

By Marry Me, Mindy (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

missmayinga:

Personally I'm amazed that Thingy hasn't shown up yet.

:-)

And that is what you get when you don't refresh the page before commenting! Thingy posted ten minutes before you.

Thingy is once again misrepresenting a study:

In August 1991, the Institute of Medicine released a report entitled Adverse Effects of Pertussis and Rubella Vaccines, which examined, among others, the relation between immunization with whole-cell diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis (DTP) vaccine and both acute encephalopathy and chronic neurological damage. The committee reviewed information from a wide range of both professional and lay sources and found that the evidence is consistent with a possible causal relation between DTP vaccine and acute encephalopathy, although it is insufficient to establish causality. The range of excess risk of acute encephalopathy following DTP immunization is consistent with that estimated from the National Childhood Encephalopathy Study: 0.0 to 10.5 cases per million immunizations. The committee concluded that the evidence is insufficient to indicate either the presence or absence of a causal relationship between DTP vaccine and permanent neurological damage.

-Cowan et al. "Acute encephalopathy and chronic neurological damage after pertussis vaccine." Vaccine. 1993 Nov;11(14):1371-9. PMID: 7906066

At least the bot's here to translate for us.

Personally, I can't believe the MDC crew is still harping on about the 'package inserts are boring' joke I made upthread. Of course, if they actually read the things they'd realize that they are, in fact - not a fnord or reptilian conspiracy to be found.

By missmayinga (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

That "700% increase in miscarriage"? It's Natural News of course, reporting on a press release from NCOW based on a fantasy by Paul G. King.

Happily, Steve Novella took the hammer of fact to the web of lies on December 14, 2010, in H1N1 Vaccines and Miscarriage: More Fear Mongering

The King analysis is nothing but rank pseudoscience, twisted to his anti-vaccine agenda. It has been widely repeated by anti-vaccine, anti-government, and conspiracy-mongering sites â Natural News being just one site to uncritically parrot the false assumption that reported cases of miscarriage and stillbirth are additional cases caused by the H1N1 vaccine.

OK, next?

The RI heavyweights laying smackdowns on a whole new collection of altie "they're trying to inject my child with TOXINS!!!!!" handwringers

The recycling of identical phrases makes them look like the same altie handwringer trying different names. Or a series of dingbats plagiarising the same source text.

nearly 5000 mcgs (5mg) of aluminum
Jolie is perhaps under the impression that the size of a unit is related to the length of the abbreviation, so a 'mcg' must be a frighteningly large quantity.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

I have a comment in moderation ,but here's the main part of the comment (original comment also had citation)

Thingy is misrepresenting the 1991 IOM report:

In August 1991, the Institute of Medicine released a report entitled Adverse Effects of Pertussis and Rubella Vaccines, which examined, among others, the relation between immunization with whole-cell diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis (DTP) vaccine and both acute encephalopathy and chronic neurological damage. The committee reviewed information from a wide range of both professional and lay sources and found that the evidence is consistent with a possible causal relation between DTP vaccine and acute encephalopathy, although it is insufficient to establish causality. The range of excess risk of acute encephalopathy following DTP immunization is consistent with that estimated from the National Childhood Encephalopathy Study: 0.0 to 10.5 cases per million immunizations. The committee concluded that the evidence is insufficient to indicate either the presence or absence of a causal relationship between DTP vaccine and permanent neurological damage.

apparently now we are at a point where pro-vacciners are saying it is very important to disregard any studies that suggest vaccines could cause harm or be ineffective and not have any other dialog.

YEAH! TOTALLY!

Except, erm, no, not at all. Nobody has said anything of the kind. But go ahead, keep making things up.

By stuv.myopenid.com (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

Mimi:

All the NVIC is saying in their statement is that people should be informed. That's all. Is that so bad?

Do you even read what I wrote? The problem is that they are misleading people by overemphasizing vaccine risks, and glossing over the risks from vaccines.

Mimi:

Soo....apparently now we are at a point where pro-vacciners are saying it is very important to disregard any studies that suggest vaccines could cause harm or be ineffective and not have any other dialog.

Oh, I see you really are not reading what I wrote! Because you posted that after I said:

So you are now making the claim that NVIC is not cherry picking, so you should prove their fearmongering is valid. Just list the title, journal and dates of those papers ....

I am asking you to provide those studies that prove vaccines are dangerous. So stop whining about us disregarding papers showing vaccines have risks, go and list them. But remember, you must also show what the risks are of actually getting the disease (something that Lisa forgot to include).

The committee reviewed information from a wide range of both professional and lay sources and found that the evidence is consistent with a possible causal relation between DTP vaccine and acute encephalopathy, although it is insufficient to establish causality. The range of excess risk of acute encephalopathy following DTP immunization is consistent with that estimated from the National Childhood Encephalopathy Study: 0.0 to 10.5 cases per million immunizations.

Show me the evidence that shows that those words have appeared from the original quotation.

The committee concluded that the evidence is insufficient to indicate either the presence or absence of a causal relationship between DTP vaccine and permanent neurological damage.

You're barking up the wrong tree. The presence of causal relationship is between DTP vaccine and acute encephalopathy. Mind your place.

Wait, did the clownshoe just say "Mind your place"?

By stuv.myopenid.com (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

No seriously, vaccines are not 100% safe as you suggest. Reading the insert is a good idea and should be encouraged. I think all sides of the issue should encourage reading the insert. I get very sick every time I take a vaccine. Its not worth it. I'd rather just get the disease. I'm serious. Kudos to you for being so much better than me and not having any side effects. But its not like that for everyone and people should be informed of the harm a vaccine can cause.

What Mike Adams is saying is that in a particular study 60% effective means it'll prevent the flu in 1.5 persons out of a hundred. The other 98 people who took the shot will or will not get the flu regardless of the shot they took. There is certainly more to it than simply slapping a label saying it is 60% effective without explaining how the number was cooked up.

He explains it very nicely. I don't understand why you have a problem with that.

Okay, trollies, 'fess up:

How many of you have even bothered to read any of Orac's posts, much less those of the regulars in the comments section, before you started typing whatever warmed-over talking points you were all commanded to type?

You've already demonstrated you're not interested in actual human interaction, much less acknowledging when you've been beat. The only reason I can see for your being here is to simply swarm the thread and try to shut it down. Except you've all discovered that many of the regulars here are every bit as smart, as educated, as experienced, as ethical, and as ferocious as Orac himself when it comes to medicine, and so instead of shutting it down, you're all getting nasty cases of butthurt thanks to the regulars.

My thanks to the regulars like Ren, lilady, Dangerous Bacon, Liz Ditz, herr doktor bimler, Chris, and all the rest of you. Your work here is wonderful, and I want you to know that you've got this non-doctor, at least, checking out PubMed and the WHO site when confronted by something with the scent of woo about it.

Why is it that the Amish don't get vaccinated and they have no cases of Autism when the general population gets it a 1 in 125.

Oh right! They must be a special breed of northern european superhuman...

Or maybe the Amish do actually have cases of autism. If only there were some way of searching the internet and ascertaining facts!

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

Angela:

He explains it very nicely. I don't understand why you have a problem with that.

Read this (and the article posted today):
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/10/mike_adams_vs_the_flu_vaccine…

Tony:

Why is it that the Amish don't get vaccinated and they have no cases of Autism when the general population gets it a 1 in 125.

Citation needed, and not by Olmsted who did not find the cryptically named "Clinic for Special Children." Oh, and could you please explain why the Amish are a particular good study group for several genetic diseases like Maple Syrup Urine Disease?

At least the bot's here to translate for us.

We perhaps should attempt a clarification. The bot, while certainly of a helpful and jolly nature, is not really aiming at translation. And although our copy of The Blue and Brown Books has suspiciously gone missing, we've made secure other materials that might lead it to try to go all interlocutor. Its design goal is rather one of closing the loop, as it were, and such utter aesthetic and logical domination in direct argumentation with Th1Th2 on Th1Th2's own linguistic terms to backfill the potential well.

By Th1Th2bot Serv… (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

vaccines are not 100% safe as you suggest.

Who suggested that?

Reading the insert is a good idea and should be encouraged.

Who said otherwise?

the Amish don't get vaccinated and they have no cases of Autism

Obvious and stupid lie. They do.

By stuv.myopenid.com (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

So how did Angela, Lisa, Nikki, Jolie, Wendy, Bitsy and Phlegmina find this site in order to grace us with their antivax dingbattery? Did someone at AoA, sMothering.com or CureZone link to Orac's article? Or did RI get named Satanic Site Of The Month on whale.to?

Inquiring minds just gotta know.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

Wait, did the clownshoe just say "Mind your place"?

Naturally. It's an example of Th1Th2's main form of idiom assimilation, which is to say, imitation. It will likely be repeating it for days. You can test the mechanism out: just insult it with some pithy aphorism, preferably using the advertising maxim that a message has to be heard three times to sink in. It'll pop out sooner or later.

@Dangerous Bacon
God only knows. My bet's behind MDC - partly because of style, partly because of the generic female nomenclature, and partly because the idea of a bunch of sMothers organizing a /b/- or Pharyngula-style raid is strangely adorable.

By missmayinga (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

Where is the compassion, Barbara Loe Fisher's son was vaccine damaged. She has campaigned respectfully for 30 years for safer vaccines.

In fact the US has paid out $2 Billion in vaccine damages in the past generation. Knowing the risks is crucial. A healthy child does not die of measles, but a healthy baby can be vaccine damaged. Tens of Thousands of families around the world have been adversely affected by vaccines, you seem to belittle their experience.

Vaccines are unavoidably unsafe!
No vaccine has been tested with a benign placebo and no vaccine has been tested for its mutagenic cancerogenic properties. And no long term study has compared health outcomes for the vaccinated and the unvaccinated. Science can not prove that a vaccine will make a child healthier therefore.

'Anti-vaccinator' is a term used to degrade mostly parents of vaccine damaged children. Those who choose not to vaccinate their children are usually extremely intelligent says all the research. Instead of playing with fancy and clever words, read the insert, and listen with respect.

By Anna Watson (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

Anna, do not demand compassion when you refuse to show any to others? Do you have any idea what damage vaccine-preventable diseases can cause? Do you have any evidence your children really are vaccine-damaged? Two events happening close together does not mean one caused the other.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

"cancerogenic"?

Where do these people come from?

By stuv.myopenid.com (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

From Anna Watson in block quotes. First part:

Where is the compassion, Barbara Loe Fisher's son was vaccine damaged.

BLF's claim is that her son was injured by the whole-cell pertussis component of the DPT vaccine in 1980. Her claim is that the DPT caused "brain dysfunction, including multiple learning disabilities and attention deficit disorder (ADD)". Did the vaccine cause her son's issues? Maybe, and maybe not.

Yes, the whole-cell pertussis vaccine had a higher rate of adverse reactions, but it also was more effective.

BLF takes credit for the introduction of the less-reactive, but less effective acellular pertussis vaccine. It's a false grab for credit.

She has campaigned respectfully for 30 years for safer vaccines.

Respectfully? Respectfully? No. She has been a one-woman disinformation campaign, spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt about the efficacy and safety of all vaccines.

Safer vaccines? That's BLF's claim, here's a question for her (and you): what vaccines do you recommend? BLF has never recommended a vaccine. She has only talked about how dangerous they are.

In fact the US has paid out $2 Billion in vaccine damages in the past generation.

To be accurate, the National Vaccine Injury Program (NVIP) has paid out $2,213,229,050.37 over 23 years, to a total of 2,799 recipients. Another 6,992 claims have been dismissed. Remember that NVIP has a very low standard of proof ("50% and a feather").

Now, to quantify those numbers, can you estimate how many doses of vaccines have been dispensed over those 23 years? Don't forget adult vaccines. Some of the 2,799 cases compensated have been for vaccines given as an adult. Give it a try....

Knowing the risks is crucial.

Yes, that estimate of the total doses of vaccines administered should help you estimate the risk.

A healthy child does not die of measles,

Now that's a flat, evil, lie. Healthy babies do die of measles. Why do you think the measles vaccine was developed?

but a healthy baby can be vaccine damaged.

Yes, vaccine injury is real. Real, but vanishingly rare (remember that risk calculation again).

"Anna, do not demand compassion when you refuse to show any to others? Do you have any idea what damage vaccine-preventable diseases can cause? Do you have any evidence your children really are vaccine-damaged? Two events happening close together does not mean one caused the other."

There's the compassion folks! Remember if you are vaccine injured and you say something about vaccines being harmful to you and other humans as well, then there will be no compassion for us...

A kid gets seizures and flu-like symptoms after a vaccine just like it says on the insert, and we still have to question whether it is or isn't associated with the vaccine. We should just ignore all common sense and continue to vaccinate risking the child's life to see whether or not it was, in fact, vaccine reaction.

@Anna Watson

Where is the compassion, Barbara Loe Fisher's son was vaccine damaged. She has campaigned respectfully for 30 years for safer vaccines.

I can think of many terms to describe someone who appropriates the inscription above the Washington DC Holocaust museum to serve her own cause, but "respectful" isn't exactly one of them.

A healthy child does not die of measles, but a healthy baby can be vaccine damaged.

I will not respond with a meme. I will not respond with a meme. I will not respond with a meme. I will not....oh, fuck it. U trollin, bro? Because...
h_tp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10838107
h_tp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7883316
h_tp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15106083
h_tp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9757471
h_tp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7581755
h_tp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20012881
h_tp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7924062
h_tp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12536372
h_tp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12620751
I believe that everyone, their dog, et. al. would like to disagree with you.

Tens of Thousands of families around the world have been adversely affected by vaccines, you seem to belittle their experience.

The CDC estimates that somewhere from 530,000 to 959,000 people died of measles in the year 2000, alone. I was going to go looking for total worldwide death tolls from measles between the vaccine's introduction and now, but I think that statistic alone proves my point pretty well.

No vaccine has been tested with a benign placebo and no vaccine has been tested for its mutagenic cancerogenic properties

The ethical problems with a hypothetical double-blind vaccine study have been covered before, by better people than myself, but I'll sum them up: basically, it would be incredibly fucked up to deny the "control" group something that could potentially save them from a disease, without their knowledge.

Also, how in God's sweet name did you get the word "mutagenic" right, but mangle "carcinogenic" into...that?

Those who choose not to vaccinate their children are usually extremely intelligent says all the research.

[citation needed]. Also, sometimes smart people can do extremely dumb things.

By missmayinga (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

Instead of playing with fancy and clever words, read the insert, and listen with respect.

Same to you, Crunchycakes.

There's the compassion folks! Remember if you are vaccine injured and you say something about vaccines being harmful to you and other humans as well, then there will be no compassion for us...

I...I don't think you understand what compassion means. Here's a hint: it doesn't mean "agreeing with everything a person says".

By missmayinga (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

Have you ever noticed that folks associated with anti-vaccine sites ( AoA, NVIC, NJCVC, EBCALA) as founders, writers, or commenters are more likely than average to have children/ grandchildren with ADSs or LDs?
Does having a child with these conditions lead to these beliefs? I wonder why? Might there be some *intervening* factor? I wonder what?

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

Compassion among infection promoters is a rarity.

"'Anti-vaccinator' is a term used to degrade mostly parents of vaccine damaged children."

Actually I had never heard that term until Anna brought it up. "Antivax" and "antivaccination", sure. "Anti-vaccinator" is a new one. Not very clever either. Have you tried "immunazi"?

"Those who choose not to vaccinate their children are usually extremely intelligent says all the research."

That sentence carries the seeds of its own rebuttal. :)

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

@Anna Watson

A healthy child does not die of measles

Whoah. Where, exactly did you learn this? I really do want to know, because it is woefully, horribly wrong. In healthy children, the risk of death from measles is about 1-2 per 1,000 cases. See, this is the problem with anti-vaccine activists such as Ms. Fisher. The risks of diseases are downplayed to make it look as though the vaccines are either unnecessary or more dangerous than the diseases they prevent.

So I ask again, where did you learn this? Please provide evidence to support this assertion.

No vaccine has been tested with a benign placebo

Again, this is wrong. Take a look at some package inserts and you'll see that there are vaccines that have been tested against placebo controls (e.g., influenza vaccine, rotavirus vaccine, etc.). And that is just the studies done to gain FDA approval. Search PubMed and you will find plenty more studies comparing vaccines against placebos.

And no long term study has compared health outcomes for the vaccinated and the unvaccinated.

Also not true. A study in Germany, "Vaccination Status and Health in Children and Adolescents", looked at numerous health outcomes among children who had received no vaccinations compared to children who had received at least one vaccination. Their results? No significant differences in illness between the two groups, with the exception that the unvaccinated group had a higher rate of vaccine-preventable diseases.

'Anti-vaccinator' is a term used to degrade mostly parents of vaccine damaged children.

No, it isn't. At least, not when I use the term. Parents who have been tricked into believing that vaccines are to blame for their child's condition are victims of people like Barbara Loe Fisher and the talking heads at Age of Autism. Yes, vaccine adverse reactions do occur, and when a vaccine causes injury, the parents and child are deserving of our understanding, respect and sympathy (click on my name for one mother's story). But not all injuries are caused by vaccines, even though the injury or illness may come after administration of a vaccine.

Perhaps instead of waltzing in here, slinging accusations and myths about, you should take some time to learn more about the subject from valid, reputable sources.

Anna Watson spewed

>A healthy child does not die of measles,

What a wonderfully compassionate statement to make; it's truly the mark of the wonderful people that make up the pro-disease lobby. Be careful who you tell that lie in front of, though. Some parents are unaccountably angered when the death of their children is mocked.

Oh dear a spelling error, posted in haste, it seemed to upset stuv.
Should read from all vaccine inserts:

"This product has not been evaluated for carcinogenic or mutagenic potential, or potential to impair fertility?"

Here are a few quotes re the healthy child and measles mortality 'lie' ..
"Under normal conditions, healthy children do not die from or become disabled from the complications of measles and if they do, questions should be asked about their management." ---[Letter BMJ Feb 2005. Dr Donegan MB.]

In UK, from 1998 to 2007 (as of 24th November), there were 28,364 cases of measles.
Out of the 12 deaths from 1998 - 2007, one is known not to be measles, one is provisional, 2 were immunodeficient children within the age where vaccines are administered, and the other 8 were older deaths resulting from infections contracted prior to 1967. From the years of 1998 â 2007, the risk of any unimmunized child dying from ACUTE measles was as follows:
immunodeficient children = one per 14,182 cases of measles; healthy normal children = 0 out of 28,364.
Any suggestion that in 2008, the risk of any child dying of acute measles is 1 in 2,000 is another fictional statistical manipulation, in the same vein as: âin order for the risk/benefit equation to be tipped in favour of leaving children unvaccinated against MMR, there would need to have been more than 7500 deaths from MMR in the last 10 years.â -----Hilary Butler [Letters BMJ Becoming Ben Oct 2008]

p.s. My children are not vaccine damaged child. How many of you have children I wonder?

By Anna Watson (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

By the way, Anna. Perhaps you would like to tell the parents of the three infants in Germany who died of measles encephalitis in 2006 that measles doesn't kill healthy kids. This report discusses the impact of that measles outbreak, including the three children who suffered encephalitis. In the report, it's mentioned that two of the children died. The third died after publication of the article.

NO vaccine has been tested against a benign placebo, unless you call other vaccines benign ...

Prof David Salisbury, Head of Immunisation in the UK, told me that
âThey all only use benign placebos â we use the safest most pure vaccines as a placeboâ

The new malaria vaccine for example is being tested with that benign Rabies vaccine!

By Anna Watson (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

Compassion among infection promoters is a rarity.

Nice one. Shall we drag out your greatest hits? Regale everyone about the "retards" once again in the meantime.

@Anna Watson

Interestingly, searching the BMJ for the Donegan letter turns up nothing. The only sources I could find for that quote were anti-vaccine sites and comments left by people such as yourself.

And the Butler citation is a comment on the article "Becoming Ben".

Now, tell me, Anna. In what universe are letters and comments such as that science? Please give us an actual study to back up your claims.

Anna Watson, do please tell us what Roald Dahl's oldest daughter died from?

And please read the comment I made to Lisa that was posted at December 28, 2011 11:59 PM. Now I want you to prove to me that your statement that children who are healthy do not die of measles using actual peer reviewed literature, not a BMJ letter nor from a "journalist" like Ms. Butler. Just post the title, journal and date. Be sure to make sure it is indexed at PubMed (there is nothing by Donegan MB in 2005).

Also, do tell us how Barbara Loe Fisher was more effective than John Salamone (whose son was injured by the oral polio vaccine).

I also want you to tell us exactly how you would design a placebo trial of a vaccine that would avoid real numbers in the second, third and fourth columns of Table 1 of this study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2134550/pdf/jhyg00119-0147…

My children are not vaccine damaged child. How many of you have children I wonder?

Ah, yes. In addition to the "compassion gambit," we have the "mommy and daddy gambit'; i.e., the implication often made by antivaxers that you just can't understand "vaccine injury" unless you yourself are a parent.

BTW, Ms. Watson conveniently leaves out the response of Dr. Peter Flegg, author of the "Becoming Ben" article, to Ms. Butler:

4) How many of the people who died had immunodeficiencies, cancer, or any other underlying condition which would have contributed to their deaths.

Both the deaths from acute measles had underlying immunodeficiency. To pre-empt your next question (which would be to say that ânormalâ children do not die from measles in the UK), let me say that these deaths demonstrate quite irrefutably the case for universal measles vaccination. These two children would never have been allowed to receive live MMR vaccine; so they depended upon herd immunity to keep them safe from catching measles. In a world where there was no measles vaccine, these two children would have been exposed to measles in infancy, with no doubt the same outcome. Poor vaccination rates lead to lowered herd immunity, and can directly be linked to these unfortunate deaths. It is precisely because some children are more vulnerable (yet cannot be protected through vaccine) that herd immunity is so vital.

There is much more from Dr. Flegg in the comments on that article. The responses can be found here.

Nice one. Shall we drag out your greatest hits? Regale everyone about the "retards" once again in the meantime.

Indeed. Thingy has been in rare form lately.

Orac, while I fully respect and understand the fact that you don't want spambots running around, I have to say that comment moderation makes pulling off a reverse Gish Gallop a right pain in the ass. :P

By missmayinga (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

@Andrew

Thanks for the link. So, to support her claim that measles doesn't kill healthy kids, Anna cites opinions offered in comments/letters, not peer reviewed controlled studies. Got it.

Here are a few quotes re the healthy child and measles mortality 'lie' ..
"Under normal conditions, healthy children do not die from or become disabled from the complications of measles and if they do, questions should be asked about their management." ---[Letter BMJ Feb 2005. Dr Donegan MB.]

Awesome, we're running to whale-dot-I-really-need-to-have-a-chat-with-the-King-of-Tonga.

I have to wonder about some of these fabulous motherly people. None of them seem to have any experience, or anyone in their family?, as a nurse despite it being a female dominated profession.

Well, I have a child who's a nurse in a children's hospital. These people often have to nurse terminally ill children and their grieving families all the way through to the very sad end. You'd think they'd be used to death in hospital. Sad, yes, but they're trained for it.

But the rage and grief that rippled through the hospital when a baby died of pertussis, now that was different.

And the truly horrible thing is that 10-15 years ago the staff could not recognise the symptoms of a baby with pertussis. Only an older nurse had the experience from years before.

She thought she'd never see it again. If only.

Oh dear a spelling error, posted in haste, it seemed to upset stuv

Bovine faeces. "Carcenogenic" would be a typo. "cancerogenic" is not knowing the damned word.

By stuv.myopenid.com (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

What Mike Adams is saying is that in a particular study 60% effective means it'll prevent the flu in 1.5 persons out of a hundred. The other 98 people who took the shot will or will not get the flu regardless of the shot they took. There is certainly more to it than simply slapping a label saying it is 60% effective without explaining how the number was cooked up.

There's an old joke that's relevant here.  A guy goes to the doctor, and the doctor diagnoses a sprained finger.  The guy asks, "Doc, once my finger heals up, will I able to play the piano?"  The doctor says "Why, certainly!"  The guy says "That's amazing!  I never could play piano before!"

The point of the joke is that the doctor is answering the only reasonable interpretation of the question, namely, will the healing of a sprained finger return piano-playing ability to someone who would otherwise be able to play if not for that sprain?  But the patient is actually asking a different, and humorously illogical question:  will the healing of a sprained finger somehow magically obviate all the other obvious prerequisites to playing a piano, such as knowing how to play??

Mike Adams' "shocking" revelations about the flu vaccine effectiveness are akin to this old joke, except that his illogical question is actually serious.  He's somehow pretending that those who talk about the effectiveness of the flu vaccine are being dishonest for phrasing that effectiveness in terms of "how many people who otherwise would have gotten the flu will not get the flu because they had the vaccine."  Doing it Adams' way, however, would be like judging whether sprained-finger treatment was effective by dividing the number of people who could play piano afterwards by the total number of people with sprained fingers, instead of the number of people with sprained fingers who could play piano before. 

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

"A healthy child does not die of measles"

Well, obviously. A healthy child gets the measles and gets very sick. Then he or she dies of measles, but he or she certainly was not a healthy child just before dying of measles.

Right, Anna Watson?

Re: you have to be a parent to understand the problem of vaccine injury

In contrast, it was when I became a parent that I got got most adamant against the anti-vax movement. Before then, I thought the anti-vax loons were mostly an oddity. Loons but still an oddity. It was when I had kids that it became real to me. At that point, the non-vaccinated became more than oddities, but became risks to MY kids. I don't look kindly to those who put my kids at risk for thheir own slfish reasons. I am willing to vaccinate my kids to protect them AND to help protect your kids. I only as that you help us out in return.

Interestingly, even Uncle Bob Sears knows how sleazy it is to not vaccinate, and advises those people following his delayed schedule to not advertise the fact lest they run afoul of those whose kids they are putting at risk.

So don't give me this "concerned parent" shit. It is beecause I am a concerned parent that I despise the anti-vax folks. To me, it's personal.

By Marry Me, Mindy (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

@#253 stuv

"cancerogenic"? Where do these people come from?

Found Anna on "arnicanetwork" twitter feed. See
Arnica: UK Parents Support Network - Promoting Natural Immunity.
Check out the "Arnica Mission Statement"
arnica.org.uk(forward slash)our-mission

By Sauceress (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

Mimi #199

So...let me get this straight. You don't trust published science? You sort of contradicted yourself there.

I don't trust all published science, no. There are scientific studies of varying quality, that get published in journals of varying quality, and sometimes have not been published in scientific journals at all.

Do I look at what the majority of studies suggest or do I study the design of the study??

You look at what the majority of good quality studies suggest, while taking account of possible conflicts of interest of the authors, the quality of the journal a study appears in, the scientific plausibility of what a study seems to show and much more. It's complicated. That's why scientists have to spend years studying, taking exams and getting qualifications to make sure they understand their subject properly. It's not something you can teach yourself in an afternoon at Google University, contrary to popular opinion it seems.

It is well known that the majority of published studies are paid for by pharmaceutical companies.

That's true and we need to keep a close eye on them, as we do any industry, but even in the USA 30% of research is funded and carried out by government agencies or by universities. Who do you think should pay for safety and efficacy studies of products, like vaccines for example, made by pharmaceutical companies? Tax payers? Universities? Charities?

So if I am just going to look at what the majority of the studies say...I don't think that's necessarily a representation of what is really going on.

Quite right, you need to look at the quality of the study, whether it is supported by other studies etc. etc.

As far as telling people to judge by the design of the study. Most people, including physicians are not qualified to judge. To truly do that we would have to do a lot of statistics work to validate whether the study was done right.

Maybe that's why we get organizations like the CDC and the Institute of Medicine, to have panels of experts look at these complicated matters and come to carefully measured conclusions about them?

So really the only way to get a decent idea if a study is biased is to look at whether it was done independent of conflict of intrest.

No, you also need to look at the quality of the study, the quality of the journal it appeared in, the scientific plausibility of what it seems to show... Or you could trust that the experts who have spent their lives studying these subjects might have a better idea of the truth than someone with a doctorate in education, for example. Unless you are one of those conspiracy nuts who believes that the government and Big Pharma are conspiring to make money out of the sheeple by killing them all with toxic vaccines, in which case I'm definitely wasting my time.

When you look at those, you most often find that vaccines are not as safe as they are made out to be and barely effective.

Please give me some examples of well-designed and conducted, double-blinded, randomized controlled studies, independent of conflicts of interest that show that vaccines are ineffective and dangerous. No phone surveys or studies by the Geiers please.

I would have liked to see you critique some of the studies that you think were designed wrong. The truth is you haven't even looked...

The truth is you are seriously out of your depth here and making yourself look very silly. Please take a look at any review study (that's a study that looks at all the available studies relevant to a specific question and assesses what the balance of the evidence says) and especially the inclusion criteria. There are even published selection criteria that are commonly used to score a study's quality, such as the 'Cochrane Handbook of Systematic Reviews of Interventions'. Double blinding, randomization, sufficient size and measures to deal with possible biases, are just some of the important factors that make a good study. The majority of possibly eligible studies are rejected as not being of high enough quality or otherwise not fitting the inclusion criteria in most if not all review studies.

You wanted me to critique a study - how about one cited by the NVIC on their 'Pertussis (Whooping Cough) & Pertussis Vaccine' page that I picked at random: 'Pertussis toxin is required for pertussis vaccine encephalopathy'? Firstly and probably most importantly it's a study on mice, not humans, so we have no real idea if what they found applies to humans. Secondly it is 25 years old, and subsequent studies have clarified the possible role of pertussis vaccines in encephalopathy - the latest IoM publication 'Adverse Effects of Vaccines: Evidence and Causality' found no convincing evidence of a link. Thirdly it is a study of whole cell pertussis vaccine which is no longer in use in the USA. Finally, if pertussis toxin in vaccines causes encephalopathy, you would expect the disease pertussis itself to cause encephalopathy a lot more frequently, which of course it does (in 0.1% to 6.9% of cases), so even vaccination with whole cell pertussis vaccine actually reduced a child's chances of encephalopathy. Why is NVIC still citing this study when it has so little relevance to the US vaccine schedule? Could it be the scary-sounding title?

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

Anna Watson
arnicanetwork Surrey
Mum, teacher, allotment tender, dog owner, camper van lover, founder of the Arnica Network

Check out the links in the tweets.

Just using that twitter feed, I'll have my latest antivaxx bingo card completed before you can say
"View free movie till 5 Nov The Greater Good"

By Sauceress (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink
Nice one. Shall we drag out your greatest hits? Regale everyone about the "retards" once again in the meantime.

Indeed. Thingy has been in rare form lately.

Instead of being compassionate, Enders and Salk "regaled" after using these "retards" in their hideous vaccine trials.

Do you need a link Orac et al?

Where is the compassion

I am full of compassion. I donate generously to research into Dunning-Kruger Syndrome.

To truly do that we would have to do a lot of statistics work to validate whether the study was done right ... So really the only way to get a decent idea if a study is biased is to look at whether it was done independent of conflict of intrest.

Or you could, you know, learn some statistics.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

Marry Me Mindy,

It is beecause I am a concerned parent that I despise the anti-vax folks. To me, it's personal.

Me too. My son, who could not be vaccinated for medical reasons, nearly died of pertussis in the UK in the early 1980s when there were outbreaks after a fall in vaccination uptake. This was due to a scare started by a Dr John Wilson who "claimed that the vaccine was only marginally effective and questioned whether its benefits outweigh its risks" (Wikipedia).

Watching my son laboring for breath while his lips turned blue was very frightening. I didn't realize until recently that that horrible experience was due to a vaccine scare that had actually been shown by that time to be completely out of proportion to any actual risk. It led to up to 100 unnecessary deaths and misery for thousands of children and their parents.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

@Krebiozen

Can you shoot me an e-mail? I'd like to run something by you. My e-mail link is over on HS (click my name to get there).

I'll have my latest antivaxx bingo card completed before you can say
"View free movie till 5 Nov The Greater Good"

I know,but we can substitute "aluminum" or "metals" for "thimerosal" anyway,and still have a "BINGO" from this thread.

This has been one entertaining thread.Things were getting a little dull around here.Fresh trolls are always welcome.

By Roger Kulp (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

Krebiozen:

You wanted me to critique a study - how about one cited by the NVIC on their 'Pertussis (Whooping Cough) & Pertussis Vaccine' page

[cough, cough] She missed when I noted that a reference was selective quoted, and I when I said:

The DTaP has been used for over a decade, so there should be fewer references to the dangers of the DTP vaccine. Also, it would be more honest to actually refer to the proper vaccine on the line that says: âPediatrics â August 2005 study on effectiveness of DPT vaccine.â The link goes to a paper titled âPertussis Vaccine Effectiveness Among Children 6 to 59 Months of Age in the United States, 1998â2001â³, and is about about 3 DTaP and 2 DTP vaccines, not the non-existent âDPTâ vaccine.

Instead of being compassionate, Enders and Salk "regaled" after using these "retards" in their hideous vaccine trials.

Somebody learned a word! It's so cute.

Narad@293 - Wonder how long it will take her to use it properly.

Somebody learned a word! It's so cute.

I doubt it was the cuteness that attracted Enders and Salk to vaccinate those retards.

I doubt it was the cuteness that attracted Enders and Salk to vaccinate those retards.

Yes, I'm sure that will be duly noted in the Book of Th1Th2 when you ascend to the gentle and endless ministrations and praise that you will justly find around the next corner.

I would have liked to see you critique some of the studies that you think were designed wrong.

Would this appreciation reach the level of a change of mind and an admission of error?

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

Ooh, and the quotes come off.

You're quite a specimen, Thingy. Hey, who wants to play Thingy DSM Bingo with me?

By stuv.myopenid.com (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

Nah, stuv, I don't read anything she posts. I saw she had posted on the side of the page, and just clicked on the next comment after hers.

I'm not a parent but that doesn't stop me from being concerned about all children's welfare. You needn't be a parent to relate to *people's suffering*- children's or adult's, of those you know personally as well as that of complete strangers'.One hundred preventable deaths because of fear-mongering is a gigantic, tragic waste of potential and needless suffering of those children and their families.

Similarly, I've never been in a war zone or tsunami or lost a limb yet can easily manage to muster sympathy for people who live through those horrible events.

Most people have the capacity to imagine themselves in the role of the other and then, perhaps stirred by what they experience vicariously, go on to support causes that benefit children, even if they haven't any.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

@ Thingy: How dare you use THAT word when referring to people who are developmentally disabled

You know God damn well that many of the posters here have children and family members who are developmentally disabled, so your use of THAT word is a deliberately vicious attack on the developmentally disabled and those who love and cherish them.

You also know that my deceased son was profoundly mentally impaired, so I consider it a personal affront that you spew your venom and that you infest this blog with your extraordinarily coarse and vulgar behavior.

My son was a wonderful child who brought joy into my life and the lives of everyone who ever met him. I do have "bragging rights" as his mother...as opposed to the feelings your mother must have about you. Poor woman, she must rue the day that she gave birth to you.

Crawl back into your cave or the sewer you inhabit...POS Sh** for Brains Troll.

Re Sauceress @283 in response to stuvmyopenid regarding "Where do these people come from?"

Someone asks a rhetorical question and gets an answer complete with links - Orac's minions are in fine form.

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

"Where do these people come from?"

My usual answer, when people respond to my ignorance on some issue of popular culture with incredulous questions like "Where have you been for the last 15 years", is 'Gutters, mainly'.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 29 Dec 2011 #permalink

@ Thingy: How dare you use THAT word when referring to people who are developmentally disabled.

Ahh...where's the compassion?

WIKI

John Franklin Enders (February 10, 1897 â September 8, 1985) was an American medical scientist and Nobel laureate. Enders had been called "The Father of Modern Vaccines."[...]
On October 4, 1960, the New York Times reported that Dr Enders was leading a team testing a measles vaccine on 1,500 retarded children in New York City and another 4,000 children in Nigeria. By late 1961, the vaccine was proven to be completely effective.[4]

Vaccinated: One Man's Quest to Defeat the World's Deadliest Diseases
 By Paul A. Offit, p. 47

On October 15,1958, Katz injected eleven mentally retarded or disabled children with the vaccine developed in Ender's
laboratory.[...]Without weakening the virus further, the Boston team next tested the vaccine in mentally retarded children at the Willowbrook State School, where Saul Krugman had performed his controversial experiment with hepatitis virus[..]Hilleman was excited with the vaccine developed by the Boston group.

More from Offit the Crook.

Why would researchers inject mentally retarded children at the same time that they injected their own children with experimental vaccines? How can one reconcile these two apparently irreconcilable facts? The answer is that retarded childrenâconfined to institutions where hygiene was poor, care was negligent, and space was inadequateâwere at greater risk of catching contagious diseases, and of dying of those diseases, than other children. Retarded children living in large group homes suffered severe and occasionally fatal infectious diseases more commonly that other children. They weren't tested because they were more expendable; they were tested because they were more vulnerable.

By logic, vaccines should only be indicated (1)if you're a retard and (2)...I guess that's it.

Wow. I love these bogus articles of deception. I used to hate them. I didn't realize, at first, the power behind such tactics used here would actually work to help us expose the corruption. Thanks for helping to raise vaccine truth awareness to all you professionals here. It used to be that many bought the lies many here work to perpetrate but now because of so many being awake & the rhetoric & propaganda used in this kind of deception being old & worn out, it's become much easier for our people to see through the cover up that's come to its end. The masses are waking & there's no turning back. Keep up the good work, guys. Posterity will thank you, too, for saving them as they will the real heroes.

Thingy: You don't get the opportunity to edit your use of THAT word ("Retards") and now post with the phrase "Mentally Retarded".

I have written extensively on this blog and other blogs about using institutionalized mentally retarded children for testing of vaccines...it is unethical.

I've also written articles in other media outlets, under my real name...and testified at State and Federal hearings... about Dr. Krugman's unethical practices at the Willowbrook State School.

You see Thingy I don't live in a cave or a sewer like you do...I reside in the real world, where people care for the most vulnerable members of society and speak out on their behalf.

And, you wonder why I refer to your postings as "brain droppings" and call you a sh** for brains troll.

Go back to your cave or your sewer now, SFB troll.

@ Marsha McClelland: Is this your profile on Facebook?

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Jeez...Marsha, you have presented us with a whole lot of blogging material...thanks.

@Marsha: & your point is...?

Never mind, I see from your Twitter feed that you're a Ron Paul fan. Better adjust your tinfoil hat, it must be slipping.

By Edith Prickly (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

@ Edith Prickly: I copied and pasted part of Marsha McClelland's Facebook page...it is a hoot.

Hurry up please Orac, and get me out of "moderation"...thanks.

Yep. Ron Paul truth is out, too. And the old propaganda is no longer working there, either. Did you see he's leading in the polls as they can't fix them with so many, now, watching? We will have R evolution & it will be televised. ^smile^

Edith Prickly:

Never mind, I see from your Twitter feed that you're a Ron Paul fan.

Does this mean that Marsh also condones shaking children to death, and then putting the blame on vaccines? Ron Paul belongs to the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons. Its journal (JPandS and its earlier version, Medical Sentinel) has papers by those who make the claim that shaking babies does not cause harm (espoused by Jane Orient), and even has articles to that effect by Buttram (who was paid as an "expert" witness to help get child murderers out of jail).

Of course, that is not all, there is more.

Really, Marsha, you actually want to be associated with that kind of ilk?

We cure autism by chelating mercury out of the brain. Why are you bothering to discuss anything besides mercury? You all know that's the only problem with vaccines.

By Smarter Than Y… (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

@lilady
Please don't waste any mental energy on Thingy's trolling. She's really not worth your time. It's like the saying goes, about not wrestling with pigs - you'll both get dirty, and the pig will enjoy it.

By missmayinga (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

@ lilady: oh my lord, what a trainwreck of crazy. Forget the tinfoil hat, she must have to wear a full suit of armour.

By Edith Prickly (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Ha, ha, ha. Where have you been? You missed it all? REALLY? WOW! Tell you all about Wakefieild's vindication later & overwhelm you with facts & 'real' evidence you can't deny. 'Snicker, snicker'. As if you don't know. I just don't have time to play your game right now in that capacity. In the mean time. And I do mean mean time. Just know we the many know Wakefield survived the orchestrated witch hunt against him in the greatest way possible as it backfired & served to wake the masses to attention. And! Media did drag his good name through the mud & soon will have to retract when the shit hits the fan. Because it will! Believe it! We the parents & citizens will be seeing to that.

As you know the real criminal, Poul Thorsen, was recently indicted for stealing the CDC's money.

For the innocent here who might not know, he was head scientist/researcher behind the Danish studies that they, the criminals, used in hope of continuing said cover up with a final nail in the coffin of truth saying that vaccines & autism are not connected. But, thankfully, too many now know vaccines are responsible as are many other toxins let loose on our babies by food, air & water, too. Thanks to many heroes like Dr, Wakefield the world is waking.

Love,
Grandma Marsha

Man...All you guys who know it all should get into pubmed more. Haven't you heard about stealth prion proteins? Oh I forgot---they still want you to believe we don't have that stuff and it is not causing Autism or Alzheimers. They also want you to believe that immune suppression we have been blessed with as a result of using genetically altered organisms is a hoax. And that mercury does not behave like flux to fold the infections in our genes.
Not near as good as the one people were forced to live in telling us that AIDS was caused by a virus, and MadCow was caused by a prion, and Neuroborreliosis was caused by a bacteria that is easy to find and easy to treat. Esp. after its 3 prion proteins have swapped genes with you, other organisms and agrobacteria as well. Yes they don't want to tell you that Morgellons is infecting all your babies in Autism immune suppression.
That was a good one fellers...LOL Have I got a holding pen for you and 999,999 other that were built in the last 5 yrs. to hold all those mean terrorists. LOL And the best part is they get to send the bill to Uncle. LOL
Can I name the next syndrome please---Rabidprionassorinus for dumping millions of Rabies antigens in prion infected insects. Of course I'm sure they will name it hemmoragic flu.

By Silvermaven (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Media did drag his good name through the mud & soon will have to retract when the shit hits the fan. Because it will! Believe it!

Define "soon," Marsha. I'd like to mark my calendar.

Anyone who does some honest research regarding the vaccination issue is bound to arrive - like I did - at the inevitable conclusion that vaccination is an organised criminal enterprise dressed up as disease prevention by means of junk science.

"Belief in immunization is a form of delusional insanity."
Dr Herbert Shelton MD, USA

"Vaccination is a massive fraud."
Dr Russell Blaylock MD, USA

"Vaccines contain substances which are so noxious they should not ever be injected into a human body."
Dr Viera Scheibner PhD, Australia

"I was shocked to find that this whole vaccine business was indeed a gigantic hoax."
Dr A Kalokerinos MD, Australia

As far as I am concerned, the sooner this medical superstition and money-making racket is abolished, the better.

Marsha,

The masses are waking & there's no turning back

Do you really believe that? What will the death toll from pertussis and measles have to rise to before the masses really wake up? Are you aware of what is happening in Europe as a result of the masses "waking up" and not getting their children vaccinated?

- 26,000 measles cases in Europe from January to October 2011
- more than 14,000 in France alone
- only 10% of cases were in people known to have been vaccinated
- 9 deaths
- 7,288 hospitalized
- thousands of cases of pneumonia and encephalitis

Slow handclap for the anti-vaccine movement...

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

@ Smarter than you Jerks:

We cure autism by chelating mercury out of the brain.

No we don't. Mercury Poisoning has totally different symptoms to Autism. Catherine Lord showed this to be the case in the Omnibus Autism Proceedings before the Vaccine Court Special Masters.

Ah, hello Erwin. Please explain to me why both I and Alet Rheeder were banned from VINE South Africa and had our comments deleted when we were polite and nonthreatening.
Also, Erwin, quotes aren't evidence. And Viera Scheibner is not highly regarded as an expert. Please post real evidence that vaccines are more harmful than the diseases they prevent, or be written off as a deluded fool.

You forgot to mention Herbert Shelton, Erwin.

Ah, Erwin, still trotting out those old appeals to authority, I see. Last time you offered them up (on Sciblogs.co.nz) we explained why these were not exactly reliable 'authorities' - you seem to have a fairly short memory.

Funny - I never quite realized before that the fringe has a fringe.

I only "violate" my own advice to not feed delusional, etc., etc....SFB troll, when it labels developmentally disabled people with THAT word...or it pokes fun at the death of an infant from pertussis.

Just be aware, that I will rip the odious troll "a new one"...whenever it repeats its sick performance. And, the "pig" will not enjoy the experience.

Dear Narad,

One cannot define 'soon' with a date on a calendar son. One should actually know this but I decided to point the fact out to you, anyway. I bet you even beLIEve in vaccines, too? I hope not. Or are you one of the many, here, who know the truth & work against it? I do not usually reply to inconsequential comments unless there's good reason but this one time I take exception.

As for the blog about me created by you shills, I'm not interested. I am honored, though, to know I've become such a threat to the best of the bad boys & girls working in the vaccine cover up agenda.

For an inside scoop cons, I predict Paul Offit your Proffit will 'soon' be sued, again, too.

Since it was pointed out my having a Face Book account, bad & good guys & gals alike are welcome to watch my wall for breaking news & updates. My wall is public & I want our enemies to know all we're up to so they can be very afraid.

Look for my crying eagle & it's not the one with my middle initial. Real & true news will be found without the spin there & if you have something to say be careful because only truth is allowed there. Mean spirited people will have to be nice or be blocked. After all, it's my wall. Not a place for debate. Activists watch this wall for information so there's not much room for conversation.

You professionals know we the many are waking to understand the fraud called science behind vaccines so you should start to look for other work while you can. Better jump off your sinking ship, 'soon'.

That's good advice many need to take because we are taking names of those to hold responsible so it's best to get out while you can.

Thinking people paying attention know the real science is on our side & each day more & more doctors & important people join the moral & correct side of this matter that takes our children out in many ways in great numbers, including death.

I do want to commend this site, though. I am impressed you do not stoop to censorship by banning people bringing truth here when they make their points. One cannot beat truth for ever so many in your business have had to resort to censorship but not you. I didn't expect that of such creatures as run this show here. Big names here for sure. I guess word would get out quick if you did stifle the public with censorship & that would be worse for you than the task of trying to create the illusion as in repeating the same lies over & over in hope of fooling some enough to continue the cover up. Thanks again for, at least, allowing free speech.

Grandma Marsha

Chemtrails - really?

Marsha is an example of MRI strentgth superconducting crank magnetism.

Edith Prickly - give Marsha a break. It is hard for someone to keep their tinfoil hat on while wearing their underpants on their head.

By Militant Agnositic (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Dear Krebiozen,

It's all a scam & the stats are mostly fake. Doctored to make it look like it's not. There is much proof if you do in depth research. If you're a sincere person you should take in all sides to this matter & come to your own conclusion.

Facts will show the outbreaks are mostly in vaccinated populations.

"News reports and studies from Ron Paul's daily Paul exploding the whooping cough vaccine myth"

http://www.dailypaul.com/167931/a-collection-of-mainstream-news-reports…

Actually,

"We cure autism by chelating mercury out of the brain."

This does work. I have seen it first hand in my own nephew who is no longer on the spectrum and had off the chart levels of mercury in his blood after his 2nd rounds of shots. But wait, let me gues, you all will say I just imagined it right? Just like homeopathic medicine does not work yet I can attest to the fact that the teething pellets are a miracle in a bottle and work much better than Oragel and Tylenol! They may not work on major illness and I will admit there is a need for "traditional" medicine, I will also admit that sometimes homeopathics DO work and overdosing kids with antibiotics is NOT always the answer. Why can there not be a balance of both. Why is it all or nothing with so many of you?

As a special education teacher I can tell you that regardless of what causes Autism the reality is that something is responsible for its onset and instead of arguing over stupid studies that someone needs to post but does not have the time to dig up because not everyone lives on line like apparently many of you do, why can we not all come together and use our brains collectivly to find out what is causing it if vaccines are not.
Over the last 25 years, I have seen this become the majority of kids I work with and it is a problem that we will be leaving to our kids as the autistic generation, and there will be an entire generation of these kiddos out there, will need someone to take care of them when their parents are no longer around.

Now I am no doctor, and no I have no "studies" to prove my thoughts on this as they are just my thoughts but I think the cause of this is not just the vaccines themselves but rather how many we are giving in such a short amount of time for the sake of "convience" for fewer visits to the Dr. Maybe it is time for some parents to be inconvienced and just take their kids to the doctor more often so that the shots can be spread out a bit so that the body has time to eliminate some of the toxins rather than being placed in toxic overload.
This combined with increased toxins in everything we surround ourselves with and you have the perfect storm. The human body can only take so much.

It is not just autism that we need to be questioning. What about rises in infertility in young couples who should be able to conceive without any problems? What about the rise in ADHD (another huge problem in the classrooms!) Rise in allergies, upper respitory infections etc. It is clear that SOMETHING is making our kids sick people!

I read above that many here have disabled children and for that I am sorry. I will say that the parents of vaccine injured kids share your experience when they see a child who seems to be developing normally disappear in front of their very eyes. I am also sure that parents of kids who have been ill from vaccine preventable illness feel the same. My point is that we have ALL felt the same and none of you are any better than anyone else who has posted here. So instead of bashing the shit out of one another and trying to prove who is right/wrong, use your energy to solve the problem and stop all the ranting and bitching already!

Actually,

"We cure autism by chelating mercury out of the brain."

This does work. I have seen it first hand in my own nephew who is no longer on the spectrum and had off the chart levels of mercury in his blood after his 2nd rounds of shots. But wait, let me gues, you all will say I just imagined it right? Just like homeopathic medicine does not work yet I can attest to the fact that the teething pellets are a miracle in a bottle and work much better than Oragel and Tylenol! They may not work on major illness and I will admit there is a need for "traditional" medicine, I will also admit that sometimes homeopathics DO work and overdosing kids with antibiotics is NOT always the answer. Why can there not be a balance of both. Why is it all or nothing with so many of you?

As a special education teacher I can tell you that regardless of what causes Autism the reality is that something is responsible for its onset and instead of arguing over stupid studies that someone needs to post but does not have the time to dig up because not everyone lives on line like apparently many of you do, why can we not all come together and use our brains collectivly to find out what is causing it if vaccines are not.
Over the last 25 years, I have seen this become the majority of kids I work with and it is a problem that we will be leaving to our kids as the autistic generation, and there will be an entire generation of these kiddos out there, will need someone to take care of them when their parents are no longer around.

Now I am no doctor, and no I have no "studies" to prove my thoughts on this as they are just my thoughts but I think the cause of this is not just the vaccines themselves but rather how many we are giving in such a short amount of time for the sake of "convience" for fewer visits to the Dr. Maybe it is time for some parents to be inconvienced and just take their kids to the doctor more often so that the shots can be spread out a bit so that the body has time to eliminate some of the toxins rather than being placed in toxic overload.
This combined with increased toxins in everything we surround ourselves with and you have the perfect storm. The human body can only take so much.

It is not just autism that we need to be questioning. What about rises in infertility in young couples who should be able to conceive without any problems? What about the rise in ADHD (another huge problem in the classrooms!) Rise in allergies, upper respitory infections etc. It is clear that SOMETHING is making our kids sick people!

I read above that many here have disabled children and for that I am sorry. I will say that the parents of vaccine injured kids share your experience when they see a child who seems to be developing normally disappear in front of their very eyes. I am also sure that parents of kids who have been ill from vaccine preventable illness feel the same. My point is that we have ALL felt the same and none of you are any better than anyone else who has posted here. So instead of bashing the shit out of one another and trying to prove who is right/wrong, use your energy to solve the problem and stop all the ranting and bitching already!

One cannot define 'soon' with a date on a calendar son.

Where are we going?

Planet 10!

When?

Real soon!

Holy crap. Is the moon full?

Do you really believe that? What will the death toll from pertussis and measles have to rise to before the masses really wake up? Are you aware of what is happening in Europe as a result of the masses "waking up" and not getting their children vaccinated?

- 26,000 measles cases in Europe from January to October 2011
- more than 14,000 in France alone
- only 10% of cases were in people known to have been vaccinated
- 9 deaths
- 7,288 hospitalized
- thousands of cases of pneumonia and encephalitis

Slow handclap for the anti-vaccine movement...

Posted by: Krebiozen | December 30, 2011 1:54PM -----------------------------
Come on Krebiozen get real. Do you really not know that Pertussin reported by Russia to be infective in the prion protein swapping genes? And Korea says Clap is the same? While they also told us back in 1996 how it melded into the genes. And again in 2001. How stupid people ever believed they were not all the same thing I'll never know. I guess you have to be one of them that cared enuf to slaughter 200million cattle to try to stop it. Pam3 cys was first synthasized in 1983 and from there AIDS/MadCow/Syndromes were born. They got lucky in finding HIV like they got lucky in finding XMRV/HGRV and HPV when they katow to junk they know will never work. If they hadn't given us so much help we would all be living into the hundreds by now...But were not. In fact the avg. age of Africans is 35 they gave them sooo much help...

Oh how about Poland telling us that the test for neither works in the immune suppression Pig Pharma has blessed us with? Just like the researchers just told us why we will never have a HIV/TB/Malaria vaccine. LOL And the same reason we should have NO vaccines.
You either are for the people or you are for the profits. The Autism now being diagnosed every 4 mins, the MS being diagnosed every 10 mins., the Alzheimers being diagnosed every min. added to all the other stupids they came up with to cover up their crimes does not give you time for more profits that are killing the people. Let it go on and women will control Congress because 4 out of 5 Autism victims are male. You either get onboard to the truth the people must have or walk the plank. Because stupid money grubbing paper pushers, that ignored the prion synergy epidemic they caused now able to swap genes--let it now be dissiminated in our vectors of disease.
Congress can't come up with enuf money to fix them all with stem cells and antibiotics so that leaves the ones who gave it to them to pay for their crimes. Lets not ferget why we got blessed with the NVICP in the first place. It was because they knew what AIDS/MadCow/Infectious organisms could now do for them and did not want to pay for it because business was getting sooooo good...LOL
By the way---you can read France's take on Prions along with everyone elses in pubmed, esp. since the discoverer of the HIV virus now works in China to find something to cure the masses by stopping the synergy that genetically altered organisms for use in vaccine have created in our immune suppression. Every country is looking for the stop when we already have it.

Slow Handclap for Krebizen who clearly does not work for the people, cos the people working for the people are telling the people the truth for a change...

By Silvermaven (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Holy Crap Batman...Did "batshit" just link to an article about the deliberately unvaccinated causing the largest measles outbreak in 15 years, in the United States?

Oh boy. Marsha McClelland AND Erwin Alber (vaccines cause homosexuality) all in one thread! Where's Maurine Melnick and Anne Dashel? And Dr. Jay? Then we'd have a full house..or is it a busted flush.

Dear Julian Frost & fiends,

I am glad to see Erwin is also a threat to the deception presented here as shows in the juvenile attacks on him. Good work Erwin my good man.

I know his banning people for no good reason is not true as I have seen Erwin allow wayyy more than I would without banning & have even asked him why he doesn't just ban the mean spirited in the past. Like when he was letting that ex CDC employee, Bill Bibb, have his say way too much when we all knew who & what he was. We just don't have time for shills at our Face Book sites. These sites are for sincere people actually looking for truth. So maybe he took my advise?

You see, we are on a mission like many of you here in the reverse so we have little time for those we know have an agenda of ill will & do not need our help. So sometimes banning is called for in some cases when the bad guys come to our turf & make waves, getting in the way of our agenda. After all, we have children to save unlike many here pretend.

Ha, ha, Militant Agnositic. "Chemtrails - really?" Grasp at straws much? Thanks for bringing up another truth.

"Government ADMITS secretly SPRAYING POISON on us!!! Also admit secret tests hundreds of times!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UiJ_R8JVpi4

For sincere people looking for truth look up "weathermen and chemtrails" to see them even exposing the truth on nation wide television in great detail.

Yayyyyy Truth!

They have been poisoning us by food, water, air & injection. It's time we come out of the dark ages & bring them all to justice.

You know that date in December when the calendar ends in 2012 some believe means the end? Well it's true as it will be the end for all corruption as we know it.

Love,
Grandma Marsha

I don't know if that's my profile. I can't see a link, lilady. Just type my name in & look for the crying eagle. It's the one without my middle initial. I placed the link here.

Marsha:

As you know the real criminal, Poul Thorsen, was recently indicted for stealing the CDC's money....For the innocent here who might not know, he was head scientist/researcher behind the Danish studies that they,

Please list the papers where he was either the first or last author. And did you miss the link to where all of Wakefield "independent replications" were not real?

Silvermaven:

Can I name the next syndrome please---Rabidprionassorinus for dumping millions of Rabies antigens in prion infected insects. Of course I'm sure they will name it hemmoragic flu.

WTF?

Yay, look it is Erwin Alber! The guy who liked a liked a badly faked graph because it conformed to his delusional view of reality. And he still has not figured out that Schreibner is an expert in rocks, particularly the tiny fossil type, not a medical expert of any sort.

More Marsha:

Thinking people paying attention know the real science is on our side & each day more & more doctors & important people join the moral & correct side of this matter that takes our children out in many ways in great numbers, including death.

Except, Marsha, you have not proven that you actually think. Perhaps you can tell us if Buttram is an okay dokay guy for letting people who shake children to death stay out of jail.

Even more Marsha:

"News reports and studies from Ron Paul's daily Paul exploding the whooping cough vaccine myth"

Not only are you ignorant, but you really hate babies. Most of the deaths from pertussis were babies too young to be vaccinated, and needed protection by others being vaccinated.

Teacher:

This does work. I have seen it first hand in my own nephew who is no longer on the spectrum and had off the chart levels of mercury in his blood after his 2nd rounds of shots. But wait, let me gues, you all will say I just imagined it right? Just like homeopathic medicine does not work yet I can attest to the fact that the teething pellets are a miracle in a bottle and work much better than Oragel and Tylenol!

Oh, my word. First the plural of anecdote is not data, and those teething tablets were removed from the market because they actually were so poorly manufactured that there was enough belladonna to make kids sick! From Hylandâs Teething Tablets may pose a risk to children:

The FDA advises consumers to consult their health care professional if their child experiences symptoms such as seizures, difficulty breathing, lethargy, excessive sleepiness, muscle weakness, skin flushing, constipation, difficulty urinating, or agitation after using Hylandâs Teething Tablets.

Is this really Marsha?:

"Unvaccinated behind largest U.S. measles outbreak in years

The article really says:

Among those people infected, 86 percent were unvaccinated or their vaccination status was unknown. Thirteen percent were under one year old -- too young for vaccination.

Marsha, are you now supporting vaccination for measles? Or did you just not read what you cut and pasted?

@ Marsha: Yes I visited the correct Facebook account. Are you now paranoid (censored?). Please don't leave we are having so much fun with our new chew toy.

Actually, Marsha, I also have a comment in moderation. It happens, don't have a conniption fit.

But you could take the time to tell us exactly if Ron Paul supports keeping people who shake children to death out of jail by blaming vaccines. You can check the link I posted at December 30, 2011 12:53 PM.

Paul belongs to the organization that publishes papers by Buttram, who used to testify for the child murderers. Though they kind of dropped Yurko when he landed in jail again.

Oh, Marsha...I'm for Ron Paul's candidacy and I hope he gets the Republican nomination...or perhaps runs as a third party candidate. I want to make certain that the right man is elected in 2012.

@ Chris There's many more doctors than Ron Paul who know vaccines are responsible for Shaken Baby Syndrome & SIDS, too. Fact is fact & those looking for them are finding them. But then I think you're one that knows that. Do the research for yourselves people. That's the only way to learn.

What's the raucous?

- 26,000 measles cases in Europe from January to October 2011 = herd immunity*
- more than 14,000 in France alone = herd immunity
- only 10% of cases were in people known to have been vaccinated = herd immunity
- 9 deaths = R.I.P
- 7,288 hospitalized = herd immunity
- thousands of cases of pneumonia and encephalitis = herd immunity

Slow handclap for the anti-vaccine movement herd immunity...

*Herd immunity applies to immunisation or infection, human to human transmitted or otherwise.

Oh Marsha Marsha, don't get discouraged by the moderation hold-ups, they happen to all of us. Please do continue "beating us up with the truth." It tickles!

Release the Ron Paul Blimp!!

By Edith Prickly (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Please do not feed delusional, nasty, ignorant, disease-promoting, health-care-professional-wannabe troll.

No lilady I am not paranoid. All my comments went straight through & now all a sudden one is held for moderation? It did make it but could someone tell me why after making so many comments I am now getting the message my comment is being held for moderation? Seems funny to me as if you now need to check what I write before you post it. Seems logical to me to suspect foul play.

By Marsha McClelland (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Wonder how many of our new antivax trolls realize that the extra page views and comments they generate mean more $$$ for Orac Enterprises, payable by the parent organization ScienceBlogs.

It may not seem like much money for every visit you make, but even $1 buys enough antifreeze, formaldehyde, monkey pus and aborted fetal parts to seed 100 doses of vaccine.

Keep up the good work!

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

@Marsha McClelland:

There's many more doctors than Ron Paul who know vaccines are responsible for Shaken Baby Syndrome & SIDS, too.

False. An increased rate of vaccination is associated with a decreased risk of SIDS.

Fact is fact & those looking for them are finding them.

Now why am I reminded of those Moon Landing Hoax Conspiracy Theorists who said that the pictures of the footprints on the moon proved it was all a lie as footprints wouldn't have lasted that long?

Slow handclap for the anti-vaccine movement herd immunity...

That's got to be the most pathetic attempt to change the subject cry for attention you've ever produced. You didn't even execute it properly.

I guess I'm done here as I have been censored due to beating you guys up with truth.

Funny, you still seem to be nattering away. It must be hard to be brimming over with truth like that.

That's got to be the most pathetic attempt to change the subject cry for attention you've ever produced. You didn't even execute it properly.

Oh please do mind the asterisk [*]. Thank you.

Do the research for yourselves people. That's the only way to learn.

I have been doing that for the past ten years, and have found that the anti-vaccination brigade are spreading a horrible mess of disinformation, lies, half-truths, distortions and cherry-picked information.

I have lost count of the number of times when I have pointed out an error, with links to independent sources of information to prove it is an error. The same person pop up a few months later repeating the same nonsense.

Formaldehyde in vaccines for example, it's ridiculous to suggest that the quantity of formaldehyde in any vaccine could possibly hurt anyone, yet you see that lie repeated over and over again...

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Oh please do mind the asterisk [*]. Thank you.

Ah, sustained fail. Thank you.

Responses to multiple people follow:

"Chemtrails Awareness"? Gee, why is the Conspiracy still using chemtrails when vaccines would be such a better delivery method?

@Marsha:

Tell you all about Wakefieild's vindication later

I am glad to see Erwin is also a threat to the deception presented here as shows in the juvenile attacks on him.

So do you mean that the evidence to vindicate Wakefield isn't yet public, but will be become public Real Soon Now? Or that it already exists, but you just aren't going to bother proving us wrong?

@Silverman:

And that mercury does not behave like flux to fold the infections in our genes.

Wait, are you saying that the presence of mercury allows for Lamarckian-type inheritance of infectious diseases?

Not near as good as the one people were forced to live in telling

???

Are you saying that Mad Cow disease isn't caused by prions?

@Erwin Alber:

Anyone who does some honest research regarding the vaccination issue is bound to arrive - like I did - at the inevitable conclusion that vaccination is an organised criminal enterprise

So nice of you to make explicit the rule "a pro-vaxxer must either be a sheep or a shill".

Esp. after its 3 prion proteins have swapped genes with you,

Prions don't have genes, so how could they "swap" genes with you?

@Liz Ditz:

Erwin Alber (vaccines cause homosexuality)

Wait, what?!

By Matthew Cline (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

And about any "censorship" on this blog: I just made a somewhat long pro-vax comment which got held for moderation, which didn't have any links in it whatsoever. So just chill about comments being held for moderation, they'll be approved the next time Orac looks through the moderation queue.

By Matthew Cline (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Ah, sustained fail. Thank you.

I've always thought herd immunity is a failed concept hence it's a myth. Thank you for reiterating that.

I've always thought herd immunity is a failed concept hence it's a myth.

Keep trying. You might find the acorn yet.

@ Marsha.." There's many more doctors than Ron Paul who know vaccines are responsible for Shaken Baby Syndrome & SIDS, too."

[citations please or the names of those doctors who claim vaccines are responsible for SIDs deaths]

Marsha...See:

CDC Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDs) and Vaccines

You are aware Marsha, aren't you, that the American Academy of Pediatrics recommended in 1992, that all healthy infants be placed on their backs to sleep?

You are also aware, aren't you, Marsha, that since the implementation of the "Back to Sleep" program, that the incidence of SIDS has decreased dramatically? Why did the incidence of SIDS go down 40 %...between the time of the 1992 AAP "Back to Sleep" recommendation and 1998, Marsha?

Now if we could just get doctor/politicians and others to read the court record of convictions of child abusers and read the postmortem medical examiner's reports of the infants who died by the hands of child murderers...people like Alan Yurka would not be getting a "get out of jail card" because of the credulousness of his supporters.

@Chris,
Are you fricken serious? You worry about small doses of Belladonna in a teething tablet but you are ok with the current CDC schedule for vaccines? WOW. FYI, you would have to eat a truck load of the old tablets to even get sick.I am SO SO glad I am not your child!! That was a pretty ignorant thing to say. By the way before you go spitting BS my way, they are back on the market, are perfectly safe, and were recalled for not just having Belladonna but for having in consistent amounts of it combined with not having a child safety lid per the FDA (see below). Furthermore, there is more than one brand. So, because Hylands had a recall they are all poisen?

http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm230761.htm

Just curious, what did you give your kids for teething? Healthy doses of Mercury?

I think my biggest shock of all Chris is that this is the ONLY thing you can find to refute about in my post. I sure am glad you did not attack me like you have many others who have come here and also spoken the truth.

@Jullian Frost, if you do not beleive the link between SIDS and vaccines, perhaps research why the US has such a HIGH (one of the highest) IMR (infant mort. rates) and also the highest vaccine schedule where other countries who have lower vaccine schedules, such as Singapore where they hold off on vaccines until age 2 and do not give as many as the US, also have much lower IMR than we do? Explain that please? Since we are all about posting studies, I would LOVE to read where you found that increased vaccines lead to LOWER IMRs as you stated above. Here is my study saying quite the opposite.

http://het.sagepub.com/content/early/2011/05/04/0960327111407644

@Dangerous Bacon, as far as I am concerned, money well spent! If any post here changes the mind of just ONE mom who would otherwise beleive any of the BS posted here, then money well spent.

Just curious, how many of you are DOCTORS? Is there even ONE Medical doctor who practices medicine in the house or are you all just a bunch of "know it alls" who just spew what you call facts on the web? Todd even has his own blog. How cool. He is not a doctor and neither is the author of this blog yet you are qualified to talk vaccines, why? Because someone was stupid enough to give you membership to a blog site? Please. Where I come from we call that being a poser, just saying.

Marsha, Marsha, Marsha:

There's many more doctors than Ron Paul who know vaccines are responsible for Shaken Baby Syndrome & SIDS, too.

You need to provide those citations. Because I really hate it when people murder babies and then try to blame vaccines. I also really hate it when they lie about it. So you really have to back that up with real evidence.

Fact is fact & those looking for them are finding them. But then I think you're one that knows that. Do the research for yourselves people.

It seems those facts seem to elude you. I have done some research and here is what I came up with:
Vaccine. 2007 Jun 21;25(26):4875-9. Epub 2007 Mar 16.
Do immunisations reduce the risk for SIDS? A meta-analysis.

The conclusions say:

Immunisations are associated with a halving of the risk of SIDS. There are biological reasons why this association may be causal, but other factors, such as the healthy vaccinee effect, may be important. Immunisations should be part of the SIDS prevention campaigns.

Now, Marsha, it is up to you prove they are wrong. Except you are not allowed to use any papers from doctors whose medical license have been investigated, nor anything from AAPS's Journal of the American Physicians and Surgeons.

Until then, I will just lump you in with the child abusers.

@Chris,
Are you fricken serious? You worry about small doses of Belladonna in a teething tablet but you are ok with the current CDC schedule for vaccines? WOW. FYI, you would have to eat a truck load of the old tablets to even get sick.I am SO SO glad I am not your child!! That was a pretty ignorant thing to say. By the way before you go spitting BS my way, they are back on the market, are perfectly safe, and were recalled for not just having Belladonna but for having in consistent amounts of it combined with not having a child safety lid per the FDA (see below). Furthermore, there is more than one brand. So, because Hylands had a recall they are all poisen?

fda gov NewsEvents Newsroom PressAnnouncements ucm230761 htm

Just curious, what did you give your kids for teething? Healthy doses of Mercury?

I think my biggest shock of all Chris is that this is the ONLY thing you can find to refute about in my post. I sure am glad you did not attack me like you have many others who have come here and also spoken the truth.

@Jullian Frost, if you do not beleive the link between SIDS and vaccines, perhaps research why the US has such a HIGH (one of the highest) IMR (infant mort. rates) and also the highest vaccine schedule where other countries who have lower vaccine schedules, such as Singapore where they hold off on vaccines until age 2 and do not give as many as the US, also have much lower IMR than we do? Explain that please? Since we are all about posting studies, I would LOVE to read where you found that increased vaccines lead to LOWER IMRs as you stated above. Here is my study saying quite the opposite.

sagepub com content early 2011 05 04 0960327111407644

@Dangerous Bacon, as far as I am concerned, money well spent! If any post here changes the mind of just ONE mom who would otherwise beleive any of the BS posted here, then money well spent.

Just curious, how many of you are DOCTORS? Is there even ONE Medical doctor who practices medicine in the house or are you all just a bunch of "know it alls" who just spew what you call facts on the web? Todd even has his own blog. How cool. He is not a doctor and neither is the author of this blog yet you are qualified to talk vaccines, why? Because someone was stupid enough to give you membership to a blog site? Please. Where I come from we call that being a poser, just saying.

Marsha @339

OK - The governement can manage to run a program of secretly spraying toxic chemicals from commercial airliner wich requires the cooperation and silence of thousands of airline pilots and aircraft mechanics, but they can't get a YouTube video taken down.

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Teacher, please tell me you don't teach west of the Mississippi. I really don't want any my children and grand-nieces any where near the shear stupidity you exhibit.

Do you even know how to click on a hyperlink? Did you miss the one from the FDA? I said Hylands had bad manufacturing practices, and I was specific on the teething tablets.

By the way, wet washcloths kept in the freezer do wonders, the cold soothes the pain, and the scratchy terry cloth helps with tooth eruption. Also teething is nothing compared to seizures, a toddler going in and out of the hospital, then having cardiac events as a teenager, and having three kids with full blown chicken pox (one who was six months old). You are really not scoring any mommy-warrior points by bringing up something as minor as teething.

Just curious, how many of you are DOCTORS? Is there even ONE Medical doctor who practices medicine in the house or are you all just a bunch of "know it alls" who just spew what you call facts on the web?

Go to the upper left hand part of this page. Please read the part that describes Orac.

@Teacher:

US has such a HIGH (one of the highest) IMR (infant mort. rates)

The reason that the US has such a high infant mortality rate is that in the US there are many incidents that are called infant deaths that in other countries would be called stillbirths:

First, it's shaky ground to compare U.S. infant mortality with reports from other countries. The United States counts all births as live if they show any sign of life, regardless of prematurity or size. This includes what many other countries report as stillbirths. In Austria and Germany, fetal weight must be at least 500 grams (1 pound) to count as a live birth; in other parts of Europe, such as Switzerland, the fetus must be at least 30 centimeters (12 inches) long. In Belgium and France, births at less than 26 weeks of pregnancy are registered as lifeless. And some countries don't reliably register babies who die within the first 24 hours of birth. Thus, the United States is sure to report higher infant mortality rates. For this very reason, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which collects the European numbers, warns of head-to-head comparisons by country.

Infant mortality in developed countries is not about healthy babies dying of treatable conditions as in the past. Most of the infants we lose today are born critically ill, and 40 percent die within the first day of life. The major causes are low birth weight and prematurity, and congenital malformations. As Nicholas Eberstadt, a scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, points out, Norway, which has one of the lowest infant mortality rates, shows no better infant survival than the United States when you factor in weight at birth.

By Matthew Cline (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

These comments look so familiar...like the
Idaho's Epidemic Of Fear:...
this month in the Boise Weekly

Those comments were....stunning, plus a few dozen other adjectives.

It's difficult to keep my brain from glazing over as I read this latest crop of comments. I was shocked awake again when I looked at the bottom of several comments for "Th1Th2" and see other names instead.

@Teacher #365

@Jullian Frost, if you do not beleive the link between SIDS and vaccines, perhaps research why the US has such a HIGH (one of the highest) IMR (infant mort. rates) and also the highest vaccine schedule where other countries who have lower vaccine schedules, such as Singapore where they hold off on vaccines until age 2 and do not give as many as the US, also have much lower IMR than we do? Explain that please? Since we are all about posting studies, I would LOVE to read where you found that increased vaccines lead to LOWER IMRs as you stated above. Here is my study saying quite the opposite.

I was just enjoying my popcorn while reading this thread, but I had to interject with a minor correction. The Immunisation Schedule in Singapore starts at birth. Newborns are given both (the dreaded) Hep B and BCG (tuberculosis vax that isn't used in the US). Link is in my name.

As for infant mortality, a whole lotta that has to do with limited access to medical care among the poor and those otherwise unable to obtain health insurance. Another factor in that is America's heroic tendency to try to save babies at the cusp of viability (born at 22 or 23 weeks gestation).

Anyway, please carry on with your crazy.

@ teacher: I am a registered nurse and a recently retired public health nurse. The "author of this blog" is a "double-doc" (Ph.D. and M.D.) who is the head of a large breast cancer research laboratory and a breast cancer surgeon.

There are many physicians and researchers who post here as well. The regulars here who are not in the health care field, have superb "credentials" in other science fields...we even have a rocket scientist that posts regularly here.

I see that Marsha has not replied to my post at # 362 above...why don't you give it your best shot to repudiate it?

@Militant Agnostic:

OK - The governement can manage to run a program of secretly spraying toxic chemicals from commercial airliner wich requires the cooperation and silence of thousands of airline pilots and aircraft mechanics, but they can't get a YouTube video taken down.

That's because the minds of the shapeshifting reptilian aliens work very differently than the minds of humans.

By Matthew Cline (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

@Chris,
I know how to post a link. I had to place it like that because my thread would not post with the link. It was held to moderation. In addition, again, the pellets are not toxic. I am not sure what you are refrencing about cardiac events as a teenager? That does not even make sense.

As for my teaching, that is something you can not touch. Sorry. I have worked hard to be the wonderful teacher I am today and am proud to say I was Wal-Mart teacher of the year three times in my career and also teacher of the year in my county.

@lillady,
it makes me feel somewhat better to know some of the people here have a clue! Thanks so much for sharing that some of you actually practice medicine. Sadly, by the way some of the folks on here write, I would have to question their experiences.

@Rogue, what you say does not match the fact that we in the US have one of the highest IMRs. Are you saying that it is so high because other countries do not have the same health care? I would agree if our rate was low. However, it does not make sense that we have one of the highest rates with such stellar health care and such a large number of vaccines being given. With those 2 things combined should be not then have the lowest death rate in the world? Instead what you see is that countries with not so good healthcare and those giving LESS vaccines and at a later age have better death rates. What does that say to you?

"Just curious, how many of you are DOCTORS?"

Several regulars that I can think of offhand including me (not counting Orac, which is a mistake since you should always count Orac), not to mention a bevy of nurses and other science/health professionals.

"...or are you all just a bunch of "know it alls" who just spew what you call facts on the web?"

Why do the two have to be mutually exclusive?

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

@ teacher: I provided Marsha with information about SIDs deaths and I asked you to repudiate it....so?

By the way before you go spitting BS my way, they are back on the market, are perfectly safe, and were recalled for not just having Belladonna but for having in consistent amounts of it combined with not having a child safety lid per the FDA (see below).

Below:

FDA has received reports of serious adverse events in children taking this product that are consistent with belladonna toxicity.

Teacher,
The US has an IMR of around 7 per 1000 live births which is nowhere near the highest in the world. Here are some randomly selected IMRs from around the world: Sierra Leone 135, Nigeria 108, Pakistan 77, Uzbekistan 51, North Korea 37, Brazil 28, Iceland, Finland, and Japan around 3.

Matthew Cline explained above why the US has a higher IMR than some developed countries. The main cause is prematurity, and it is hard to see how infant vaccination could cause premature birth.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

For lilady & others who really want to know the truth in reference to post 362 & the fact doctors are becoming aware & some 'admitting' that not all SBS is child abuse. Much is vaccine injury & that is the truth.

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/shakenbabysyndrome.htm

You say laying babies on their backs is the reason SIDS has gone down? We say it's because people are becoming aware of the dangers to vaccination.

The Immunisation Schedule in Singapore starts at birth.

Why must you people go on offending Teacher by spewing so-called facts on the Internet??

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Can't any of you know it alls think for yourselves? Don't you care what ingredients are injected into your children? You care what they eat right? Oh wait, that's probably assuming too much. You all probably believe Kraft mac and cheese is a good dairy source

By Gina Radakovic… (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

I don't get all the fear afflicting the antivax tribe. It's fate - you can't escape it.

Feast or famine, peace or war - life will get you in the end
Sex, drugs, powerlines and vaccinations - something's going to do you in
There ain't no way of stopping death when it's time for your demise

- Gov't Mule "Like Flies"

(Noting the chemtrails reference and otherwise heightened level of crazy in recent posts, Las Vegas oddsmakers have revised the betting line on the troll influx being from CureZone to 7:1, while increasing the odds of it coming from sMothering.com to 5:1)

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

http://het.sagepub.com/content/early/2011/05/04/0960327111407644

Discusses IMR in the US. Oh wait let me guess, only studies posted by you would be correct and valid. Come on, let me read the reason why this one is garbage please. Marsha, THANKS FOR POSTING on here and fighting the fight!

Narad, each pellet of teeting tablets has 0.0000000000003% of belladonna (I may have omitted an 0 by mistake). Babies take 3 of these. So you are worried about this much belladonna but almost 5000 MCGs of Aluminuim as stated above is safe? Really? Again, do you rub mercury on your kids' gums?

Evidence? "shirleys wellness cafe"? Seriously?

By Sauceress (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

@Militant Agnostic:

OK - The governement can manage to run a program of secretly spraying toxic chemicals from commercial airliner wich requires the cooperation and silence of thousands of airline pilots and aircraft mechanics, but they can't get a YouTube video taken down.

That's because the minds of the shapeshifting reptilian aliens work very differently than the minds of humans.

By Matthew Cline (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

"You say laying babies on their backs is the reason SIDS has gone down? We say it's because people are becoming aware of the dangers to vaccination."

And I say, Marsha...you are full of sh**.

Case closed...go home now.

@ Gina: At least my disabled kid was never arrested and had to cop a plea for "disruption". What the hell did you feed that kid?

Oops, sorry for the double-post.

@Gina Radakovich Vokoun

Can't any of you know it alls think for yourselves?

The implication being that anyone who can think for themselves is of course going to agree with you. Not that different than accusations of closed-mindeness, with the implication being their argument is so overwhelming that no-one with an open mind could possibly disagree with it.

Don't you care what ingredients are injected into your children?

So I guess it's impossible to either:

1) Believe that at the given dosages those ingredients are harmless.

and/or

2) Believe that even if there is any harm, that the risk/benefit ratio still makes the vaccines worth it.

By Matthew Cline (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

only studies posted by you would be correct and valid. Come on, let me read the reason why this one is garbage please.

Your "pay to publish" article:
Corrigendum The National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) donated $2,500 and Michael Belkin made a personal donation of $500 in memory of his daughter Lyla towards the SAGE Choice Open Access fee for this article

Others here may bother to read it and chew it up.

Got any evidence based research published in a respected journals and indexed at Pubmed?

By Sauceress (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Evidence? "shirleys wellness cafe"? Seriously?

Just to tat one thread, Shirley quotes Guylaine Lanctôt, a/k/a Ghislaine Lanctôt, a/k/a Ghislaine Saint-Pierre Lanctôt, a/k/a "Ghis, Idessic Being in Training," on the front page, who signs on with Millicent Morden on the nonexistence of rabies in Medical Mafia.

As a long time lurker, I just wanna say I applaud all the regular posters here stemming the tide of stupid that's rolled in, especially as of late.

Oh wait let me guess, only studies posted by you would be correct and valid.

I've already commented but my link to a Corrigendum to the article linked by Teacher at #382 sent my post into moderation.

The corrigendum states that the National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC)paid the bulk of the SAGE Choice Open Access fee for the article.

Also:

However, for the purposes of this publication the correct affiliations are as follows:
Neil Z Miller, Think Twice Global Vaccine Institute, USA Gary S Goldman, Computer scientist, Pearblossom, California, USA

By Sauceress (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Narad, each pellet of teeting tablets has 0.0000000000003% of belladonna (I may have omitted an 0 by mistake). Babies take 3 of these. So you are worried about this much belladonna but almost 5000 MCGs of Aluminuim as stated above is safe? Really? Again, do you rub mercury on your kids' gums?

Ahem:

WOW. FYI, you would have to eat a truck load of the old tablets to even get sick.

It's not my fault that your commemorative Walmart Teacher of the Year T-shirts failed to shield you from posting something that directly contradicted your assertion.

Teacher,

Come on, let me read the reason why this one is garbage please.

"Garbage" is a polite description of it in my opinion. Have a read of Orac's opinion of it here.

each pellet of teeting tablets has 0.0000000000003% of belladonna

No, that's how much was supposed to be in them. Due to "substandard control of the manufacturing operation" it was discovered that sufficient belladonna to cause "serious adverse events in children" had probably ended up in the tablets. Don't you read your own links?

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Another long time lurker who appreciates the knowledge of the regular posters here.

Carry on and pay no attention to the trolls.

By Nikki Lynn (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Shirley quotes Guylaine Lanctôt ... who signs on with Millicent Morden on the nonexistence of rabies in Medical Mafia.

... Well.

*does some googling*

Y'know, it doesn't really help your reputation when the first or second hit for a search of your name is a whale.to page.

By Matthew Cline (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Just a little background on Gina's son. She claims that she and her three children are "all on the spectrum". Apparently he is not "so far down" "on the spectrum" that he hasn't graduated from a regular high school and will be attending a music conservatory; from her face book page:

"I think after yesterday our sky is quite blue. He's just about to graduate high school and he's off to the Conservatory for Recording Arts and Sciences. My son is going to be the greatest music producer ever. He's also a fabulous guitar player. I'm very happy he's not going to have this as an obstacle to reaching his full potential. Thank you for your support. Muah ~ Now let's go celebrate! ;o)
February 15 at 9:50am

Her reference to "yesterday" was February 14, 2001 when her son "copped a plea" for disruption and was placed on 12 months probation...after being arrested for bringing a realistic dud pipe bomb, that his buddy constructed, to his high school.

People who live in glass houses...and spill their guts about their personal lives on Facebook and AoA...shouldn't accuse other people of not feeding their children properly...just 'saying.

#387 Matthew Cline

their argument is so overwhelming that no-one with an open mind could possibly disagree with it.

Yep. The minds of the anti-science loons are so open that all their neurons have fled out through the gaping holes.

By Sauceress (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Teacher:

I know how to post a link.

Actually, the next question is how is your reading ability? I said: "Do you even know how to click on a hyperlink?" "Post" and "click" are not synonyms. By the way, the link I posted was exactly the same one you posted (those were the blue words that said "Hylandâs Teething Tablets may pose a risk to children", I used some simple HTML coding).

And what part of "poorly manufactured that there was enough belladonna to make kids sick" did you find confusing? Was it the use of a multisyllabic word like "manufactured"?

The cardiac events in the teenager were very real, and they were very real again in the same now 23 year old adult just a couple of months ago. There are these things called genetic heart disorders. Now I really doubt your teaching ability if you have issues with both reading comprehension and did not know that some kids actually have medical issues that just occur.

Gina Radakovich Vokoun:

Can't any of you know it alls think for yourselves? Don't you care what ingredients are injected into your children?

Yes, we can actually. It is all involved in knowing what the actual ingredients are, and being able to intelligently access the risks with real data. Could you please tell us what toxin in a vaccine is more toxic than tetanospasmin?

And then you can tell us exactly which vaccine is more dangerous than the disease it is designed to protect from. Please show us you can think for yourself by posting the actual title, journal and date of the studies, and not a random website of someone's opinion.

Marsha, Marsha, Marsha, haven't you been told often enough to post real studies and not web opinion pieces? I asked for the title, journal and date of the studies that supported your statements, and that are contrary to the review study I posted. Shelley's Wellness Cafe is an idiotic joke, and I already told you that Buttram was an evil man who kept baby killers out of jail, and I told Mr. Alber that Schreibner has a doctorate in rocks, not anything related to biology.

(Noting the chemtrails reference and otherwise heightened level of crazy in recent posts, Las Vegas oddsmakers have revised the betting line on the troll influx being from CureZone to 7:1, while increasing the odds of it coming from sMothering.com to 5:1)

DB, Gina Radakovich Vokoun is an AoA critter and all over Facebook with her anti-vax lunacy. I guess this is the big push with the last gasp.

"Gina" is also a charter member of the "Canary Party"...Arizona branch.

Y'know, it doesn't really help your reputation when the first or second hit for a search of your name is a whale.to page.

Madame Ghis' reputation is as solid as a rock, thanks to her being imprisoned for two months in Montreal for some sort of cosmic tax protest. Where the hell's Doctress Neutopia when you need her?

Thingie #347:

- 26,000 measles cases in Europe from January to October 2011 = herd immunity*
- more than 14,000 in France alone = herd immunity

A genius of your order should also have noticed that the immunization rates have decreased in Europe since the Wakefield affair, in conjunction to the growth of the anti-vaccine movement Not only in local pockets of under-vaccinated populations, but in several countries, including France, the rate of vaccination against some childhood diseases is now dipping below the level of herd immunity. No wonder we have this resurgence of preventable diseases!

As for Ron Paul, I wish he were president right now and the FED was abolished along with the income tax and the IRS.

You'll be pleased to hear that he's locked up David Duke's vote, as well, I imagine.

lilady:

People who live in glass houses...and spill their guts about their personal lives on Facebook and AoA...shouldn't accuse other people of not feeding their children properly...just 'saying.

I don't think I would take her to much for task in that regard. It does have some odd coincidental themes with a movie I recently watched, Beautiful Boy (note to "Teacher", the blue letters are a hyperlink, clicking on it will take you to the Internet Movie DataBase).

The mother was one of those who did not let her son eat junk food. Warning, it is a very slow movie. I had my WinDVD player time stretching feature at 1.75 and sometimes full double speed and it still seemed too slow (watched it in less than an hour!).

Those of you interested in some real facts about aluminum toxicokinetics might find this mini review interesting.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Better be glad you weren't on Ed Brayton's site or PZ MYers where the nerds a really snarky.

Yes, I suppose you really did get your ass kicked pretty badly with those misadventures, Rob.

I take a holiday break from RI for a while, and come back to find we've got trolls I've never encountered before, and they're apparently on new levels of stupid. Fun.

Here's a hint for the ones pulling toxins gambits: The dose is of great importance. As far as I'm concerned, if someone talks about toxins without mentioning a specific toxin and the dose necessary to cause alleged effects, they're either lying or unthinkingly parroting someone who lied to them.

@ Chris: She's nuts and narcissistic. What parent would ever discuss her child's criminal behavior on the internet...except a nut looking for sympathy for herself.

lilady, duly noted.

If nothing else, this post goes to show how anti-vax crankery crosses ideological lines.

I mean: anti-vax nuttery combined with Ron Paul crankery? You can't make this stuff up.

"Medicien Man", has your arrogance and deceit brought you anything but ridicule and misery?

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Who is Rob? Why do you keep calling me that?

Because a simple textual comparison identifies you as Rob Hood, KE5BMP, Mississippi swampjack, proud representative of MFJ subsidiary Ameritron, and guy with a really moribund blog. Happy?

Or better: Brave Sir Robin Right Wingnut.

@ Scryer:
@ Nikki Lynn;

Oh, thank you so much for coming forward! I would offer you both drinks but it's rather difficult reaching across cyberspace. Please sit down, get comfortable- you're amongst friends. Since it'll soon be New Year's I am hoping that a certain Scottish gentleman** will stop by and sing "Auld Long SineWave" or whatever it is that they sing. So stick around. Step right over the trolls. We all do.

** very handsome with dark hair and a beard, swears like a sailor: you know who you are.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

About calling these new commenters "trolls": trolls are people who post just to get a reaction, like Medicine Man and Th1Th2. These new commenters seem to be genuine.

By Matthew Cline (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

#397

I say every time a nerdy vaccine slurper mentions getting vaccinated, fart real loud and point at them and laugh.

Still seeking someone to share your obsession with analism Mm?

Instead of desperately trying to garner attention to your plight on science blogs, I'd suggest a therapist. I'm sure you'll find any number who will show an appropriate interest in your obsession.

Sorry Marsha for not helping you out sooner.

On another note..
I thought immediately that Medicien man & its associated personalities would be attracted (if not already familiar) to Marsha when I read the first of Marsha's nutty rants.
(note: Having said that,I'm making absolutely no implication that Marsha is one of Mm's alternate personalities.)

By Sauceress (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Vaccination isn't:

- disease prevention
- immunisation
- evidence-based science

Vaccination is:

- a fraud/hoax/scam/racket
- junk science/tobacco science/Mickey Mouse science
- biochemical warfare against civilians
- population control and reduction
- systematic child poisoning
- child abuse
- a crime against humankind
- a monstrous deception
- a health disorder manufacturing process
- an autism creation factory

etc. etc.

By Erwin Alber (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Oh - I forgot:

- something for morons to believe in

By Erwin Alber (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

You all probably believe Kraft mac and cheese is a good dairy source

Does it help if it's prepared with raw goat milk and pastured butter with the macaroni boiled in homemade kombucha while I'm wearing nothing but a scobie on my head and gobbling probiotics?

Erwin Alber, you are a joke. You looked at a graph that someone had obviously used a paint program to draw in a fake line, and you bought it hook, line and sinker. Justifying it by saying: "People have different takes on reality, and sometimes some of them approximate, or even match, actual reality. To me the graph is real, to you it is a fake. To each his own."

You see folks, Mr. Alber lives in his own reality.

Vaccines are for population control and reduction? With over SEVEN BILLION of us on this planet, we're not doing such a good job, I guess. Maybe if that pesky smallpox had been allowed to go on?

-a fraud/hoax/scam/racket
-population control and reduction
-a monstrous deception

One that every government of every political flavour and religious culture the world over is party to?
Even those where the population is paid bonuses to have babies?
Interesting case of cognitive dissonance you have there Erwin.

By Sauceress (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

@ Sauceress:

Marsha and the troll can't be the same- she has average language skills and doesn't go entirely fetishistic or libertarian: but her list of facebook faves- OMFG!

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Marsha and the troll can't be the same

No. That possibility didn't enter into it. Just that they spout the same ranting flavours of delusion. Besides Marsha made not one analistic reference.

Now I must be off again.
Before I leave, I'd like to take the opportunity to sincerely thank all the visiting antivaxx lunatics for coming and displaying themselves so transparently on this blog over the past few days.

By Sauceress (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

I'd like to thank erwin alber the moronic idiot and marsha the incoherent nut-job for their incompetence and unintentional stupidity.

Haven't laughed so hard at such stupid in a long while.

Keep dancing, you two puppets, you are providing me with such great amusement.

Mathew Cline (in response to me wondering why a conspiracy that could manage chemtrails couldn't get a YouTube video taken down.)

That's because the minds of the shapeshifting reptilian aliens work very differently than the minds of humans.

You are right, I keep forgetting they are only lizards after all. I was hoping for crocodilians at least. Call me a bigot, but if I have to submit to reptilian overlords, I want something with a frontal cortex and a four chamber heart.

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

and doesn't go entirely fetishistic

Ah...appologies Denise. I see you already pointed that out.
~~~~~~~
Oh and lest I don't get another chance in time...

~~Happy New Year to Orac, Shills, Minions and all The Ilk.~~

By Sauceress (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

IreneD,

- 26,000 measles cases in Europe from January to October 2011 = herd immunity* - more than 14,000 in France alone = herd immunity

A genius of your order should also have noticed that the immunization rates have decreased in Europe since the Wakefield affair, in conjunction to the growth of the anti-vaccine movement Not only in local pockets of under-vaccinated populations, but in several countries, including France, the rate of vaccination against some childhood diseases is now dipping below the level of herd immunity. No wonder we have this resurgence of preventable diseases!

Is the asterisk [*] not big enough for you?

*Herd immunity applies to immunisation or infection, human to human transmitted or otherwise.

Now, are the bolded words not bold enough for you?

IreneD,

- 26,000 measles cases in Europe from January to October 2011 = herd immunity* - more than 14,000 in France alone = herd immunity

A genius of your order should also have noticed that the immunization rates have decreased in Europe since the Wakefield affair, in conjunction to the growth of the anti-vaccine movement Not only in local pockets of under-vaccinated populations, but in several countries, including France, the rate of vaccination against some childhood diseases is now dipping below the level of herd immunity. No wonder we have this resurgence of preventable diseases!

Is the asterisk [*] not big enough for you?

*Herd immunity applies to immunisation or infection, human to human transmitted or otherwise.

h_ttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11078115

Now, are the bolded words not bold enough for you?

Immunisations are associated with a halving of the risk of SIDS. There are biological reasons why this association may be causal, but other factors, such as the healthy vaccinee effect, may be important. Immunisations should be part of the SIDS prevention campaigns.

Ahh Chris must be dreaming again. Correlation does not mean causation. What a sheep you are.

@Erwin Alber:

Vaccination isn't:
- immunisation

So, is this because:

1) It's logically impossible for vaccination to provide immunization (as Th1Th2 claims).

2) Given what we know about biology, it's impossible for vaccination to provide immunization.

3) It's not that it's intrinsically impossible, it's just that the evidence indicates it to be so.

Vaccination is:
- biochemical warfare against civilians
- population control and reduction

Wow. Chemtrails, and now this. I'm wondering if this article was linked to from some place like PrisonPlanet.com or DavidIcke.com

By Matthew Cline (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Is the asterisk [*] not big enough for you?

Maybe you could post a video in which you act it out in interpretive dance while playing the kazoo. I mean, if you just want to try to change the subject for no reason other than drawing delicious attention to yourself, you could at least put some effort into it.

What a sheep you are.

Very nearly a new word,* but in context, I suspect the instant thread has more to do with it.

* Th1Th2/Inf-Ã takedowns at MDC remain amusing to me. Why it needed two pseudonyms is still obscure.

Vaccination is:
- a fraud/hoax/scam/racket
- junk science/tobacco science/Mickey Mouse science
- biochemical warfare against civilians
- population control and reduction
- systematic child poisoning
- child abuse
- a crime against humankind
- a monstrous deception
- a health disorder manufacturing process
- an autism creation factory

And a floor-wax and a topping!

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Narad must be suffering from ORAC effect [OR A Citation needed]

Just to remind ORAC, where's your citation?

@ Chris

The cardiac events in the teenager were very real, and they were very real again in the same now 23 year old adult just a couple of months ago. There are these things called genetic heart disorders. Now I really doubt your teaching ability if you have issues with both reading comprehension and did not know that some kids actually have medical issues that just occur.

Are you saying here that these now teenagers have heart issues from very small doses of belladonna? You make no sense. As for my teaching ability, good thing you are too busy trying to be a big doctor on a random blog to be a principal or I guess my job would be in jeopardy...lol. As for teaching your kids, I will pass. I don't need another pain in the ass parent who thinks he knows all but really knows nothing.

@narad
What are you talking about? My assertion was and is clear. There is not enough belladonna in the tablets to harm a child when taken properly. If you read the FDAs report, they clearly tell you that the problem was that 1. The pellets did not have the same amount on them. They were not consistent. 2. There was not a child safety lid. The hyland group has worked with the FDA to correct these issues and the product can be purchased at any cvs. So can you not read and what is your point. My guess is that there is no point. Just like all the other BS you are posting, you have no clue and are hoping whoever is reading is too stupid to know the difference. News flash, posting here does not earn you a degree in medicine nor does it make your penis any larger so find another hobby. The jig is up and your vaccine ship is sinking quick! By the way, we do not get Tshirts for being teacher of the year prick.

It is dumbfounding to me that Chris and narad will argue about toxic belladonna in such small amounts in teething tablets but extreme levels of aluminum, mercury, and other toxins are acceptable because it's called a vaccine. Hypocrital yes?

It is also dumbfounding to me that Chris says vaccine injuries can not occur months or years after vaccines are given but teenagers can get cardiac disease from teething pellets they ate as infants. Wow! And you are dogging the whole spraying thing mentioned earlier? Your logic is flawed.

Matthew Cline,

1) It's logically impossible for vaccination to provide immunization (as Th1Th2 claims).

[citation needed]

Hypocrital yes?

You might want to look that one up.

Narad, that the best you can do? Find the typo, good job! I am super proud that someone finally rendered you speechless. :-)

Th1th2,
Actually Matthew cline is correct to say that vaccination does not provide immunization. If it did there would be no need for boosters. In addition, they would be 100% effective and they are not since many who have been vaccinated still get sick. The only real immunity comes from allowing your body to fight off disease.

Seeing as my transport has now been delayed for a few hours...

#442 @Teacher

but extreme levels of aluminum, mercury, and other toxins are acceptable because it's called a vaccine.

Please post the name of the vaccine, as well as the manufacturer, which you refer to as containing "extreme levels of aluminum, mercury, and other toxins"

By Sauceress (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Ah Narad you missed the last post from that MDC thread.

Moderator:

Once again I've removed posts from this thread which are not consistent with our guidelines.*** As I cautioned previously, this thread is now closed. Do not start a new thread on this subject.

***Infection-promoting agenda. That's what the pro-pox MDC is all about.

@ Teacher: We are all very understanding about your limitations regarding science and, for the most part have been patient with you. What we don't understand is your reading comprehension skills. I myself find it difficult to believe that you are a college graduate. You are unable to comprehend your own citations and you certainly do not have the skill set to comprehend some of our posts...in spite of Chris and other posters "dummying down" their comments.

I'm afraid "Teacher" that you are too steeped in alternative science and bogus medicine and utterly too impressed with your abilities to understand basic science.

You really should go back to your alt medicine internet sites where they offer up "information" at your reading comprehension level.

Teacher:

Are you saying here that these now teenagers have heart issues from very small doses of belladonna?

Your lack of reading comprehension is astounding! How did you graduate from university?

First off, the mention of my kids' medical issues was mentioned as a way to show how wimpy you were about teething. Let me repeat the paragraph, since you have trouble reading:

By the way, wet washcloths kept in the freezer do wonders, the cold soothes the pain, and the scratchy terry cloth helps with tooth eruption. Also teething is nothing compared to seizures, a toddler going in and out of the hospital, then having cardiac events as a teenager, and having three kids with full blown chicken pox (one who was six months old). You are really not scoring any mommy-warrior points by bringing up something as minor as teething.

So not only did you not learn about an effective sugar free(which is what homeopathy pills mostly contain) and drug free way to deal with teething, but you totally missed that you were called a maternal wimp. Great going!

@Krebiozen @406- From the "mini review"-
"Urine accounts for >95% of excreted Al. Reduced renal function increases the risk of Al accumulation and toxicity in the very young, elderly and renally diseased human being (Greger & Sutherland 1997) Chelators can increase Al clearance into urine, bile and dialysate (Yokel et al. 1996b & 1997). Citrate appears to have chelation properties, to form small molecular weight Al species that can be excreted in the presence of adequate renal function, potentially protecting against the accumulation and toxicity of absorbed Al."
Notice how the very young are grouped with the elderly and renally diseased.
Still no support for Dr. Offit's statement of aluminum as an "essential metal" See
@172 also@189@216

@Krebiozen @406- From the "mini review"-
"Urine accounts for >95% of excreted Al. Reduced renal function increases the risk of Al accumulation and toxicity in the very young, elderly and renally diseased human being (Greger & Sutherland 1997)
Notice how the very young are grouped with the elderly and renally diseased.
Still no support for Dr. Offit's statement of aluminum as an "essential metal" See
@172 also@189@216

Good night everyone. Tomorrow I'll be posting an urgent message to everyone including the vaccine pushers who are in the know & in this because of greed. They better pay attention too because if they have children or grandchildren they'll need to know what I will be telling them.

For now, for part of the in depth research everyone must do instead of buying the bull & parroting the lies, here's something everyone needs to know>>>

"Big Study: Vaccinated Kids 2-5 More Diseases Than Unvaccinated"

http://healthfreedoms.org/2011/10/14/big-study-vaccinated-kids-2-5-more…

Teacher, it just occurred to me: what kind of tortured logic did you use to connect a genetic cardiac disorder that manifests in a teenager to teething tablets, especially since I said I never used any?

Really, how do the cogs and gears in your gray matter work?

By the way, we do not get Tshirts for being teacher of the year prick.

You must be a real joy in difficult classroom situations and parent interactions. Anyway, that rules out 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009 at least, modulo polo shirts. Or maybe they stiffed you, I don't know.

@chris,
Sorry darling but it is not my reading that lacks but rather your writing skills. How was I, your reader, to know that the seizures, toddler going in the hospital etc...was your own kids? Let me break it down for you fourth grade style so that perhaps you understand, ready? If you want someone to understand what you are saying when you write, please make sure and make yourself clear. Assume nothing. After all, you know what they say about assuming right?

As for homeopathics, I am not one to argue their ingredients as to how much sugar they are made with and really i do not care. They work, but i bet you would say they do not and have likely not tried very many. I want to make it clear that there is also a need for medicine so please spare me the lecture ok. Homeopathics are like nyquil or other over the counter cold remedies but are not a cure all for everything.

You have yet to justify why small doses of belladonna is so terrible and bad but the toxins in vaccines are good. I am just so excited to hear your reply and all of the great studies you will skew to back your claims. I am on the edge of my seat over here!

As for your attempt at an insult, I laugh at your maternal wimp comment. Do you really think I am weak minded enough as to let some little schmuck on the Internet make me feel like a bad mom or even a bad teacher? Please. I have much more confidence in myself than that but nice try....hahaha.

I am going to bed but look forward to your reply over coffee in the morning, to include sugar! Do make sure your writing is a bit more clear ok.

Ah Narad you missed the last post from that MDC thread.

Moderator:

Once again I've removed posts from this thread which are not consistent with our guidelines.*** As I cautioned previously, this thread is now closed. Do not start a new thread on this subject.

No, I didn't miss anything. Is there any reason I should think any of these were yours? Did you get a PM? They seemed to tolerate you quite well. So well, in fact, that you apparently disappeared after failing to get the desired rise out of them after trying two screen names.

Narad, that the best you can do? Find the typo, good job!

I wasn't referring to the typo.

@ Marsha: We are all awaiting your urgent important announcement tomorrow...yeah.

The study you linked to was discussed at length on this blog months ago. Just a few key words for you Marsha...you are still full of sh**. Case closed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=prion
I hate doing someone else's homework. Dagnabbit...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22147650
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22176890
J Cell Mol Med. 2011 Dec 16. doi: 10.1111/j.1582-4934.2011.01507.x. [Epub ahead of print]
Interaction between pathogenic proteins in neurodegenerative disorders.
Emerging evidence, in addition to synergistic effects of tau protein, amyloid β, α-synuclein, and other pathologic proteins, suggests that prion-like induction and spreading, involving secreted proteins, are major pathogenic mechanisms in various neurodegenerative diseases, depending on genetic backgrounds and environmental factors.

Heck, what do they knowww...They didn't make 17th in world science test scores they were a lot smaller than we were---what about 3rd?

Math hewww now you knowl when we's got prions causing the most prevalent form of bone cancers we got big trouble in Dodge...Even if they don't want to admit where it came from, or how it occurs---we gotta long dusty road ahead of us son.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/756096
According to the researchers, the "cross-reactivity of Ad-specific T cell responses could potentially lead to reduced vaccine-induced immune responses in all populations with prevalent adenovirus infections of any serotype." Shuuu..Don't tell em Math hewww that 90% of the people's alredy got them there virus'...

And when they tell us from up at the big house that our Toll's not workin rite---we'll son---see we gotta fix it...And that there is just what we're gonna do...OK?
http://www.jimmunol.org/content/170/1/508.full
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/755862

And wen yur horse goes lame holler and we'll fix him up too...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/23/antibiotic-resistance-fda-live…

That's iffin all the good doc's who know how to fix it ain't done skipped the country like they be doin now and leave all you poor fellers up the creek without a paddle..Math hewww I feel a brezz as they are blowin by...Can we put up more bobwire to keep em in?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22185972
Japan treating with Chemo.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22188237
China

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21683106 While these guys know whats goin on...LOL
In the present work we show that a synthetic membrane exposed to PrP27-30 extracted from TSE-infected hamster brains changes its permeability

because of the formation of molecular pores that alter the conductance of the synthetic lipid bilayer.

Synthetic membrane challenged with the recombinant prion peptide PrP90-231 shows a much lower conductance.

Elevation of calcium ion concentration not only increases the current amplitude

due to the action of both PrP27-30 and PrP90-231 on the membrane, but also amplifies the interaction of PrP90-231 with the lipid bilayer.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22118664
Lipids a missing link...LOL They nev er did tell us what OSP A used in them jabs back in the 80's was..ya reckon they might tell us now Math hewww?

By Silvermaven (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Actually narad, the Walmart in my state gave us 5,000 and a Walmart apron to use in my science lab so I am all good but thanks for checking :-)

Chris, you were the one who wrote about cardiac issues with apparently your kids when I mentioned testing tablets. Maybe you need to take writing 101. At the local community college so that your point is a little more clear. This is what YOU wrote dear:

By the way, wet washcloths kept in the freezer do wonders, the cold soothes the pain, and the scratchy terry cloth helps with tooth eruption. Also teething is nothing compared to seizures, a toddler going in and out of the hospital, then having cardiac events as a teenager, and having three kids with full blown chicken pox (one who was six months old). You are really not scoring any mommy-warrior points by bringing up something as minor as teething.

So you see my dear it is your own writing again causing the issue here.

You wrote that crap in reply to my point:
"We cure autism by chelating mercury out of the brain."

This does work. I have seen it first hand in my own nephew who is no longer on the spectrum and had off the chart levels of mercury in his blood after his 2nd rounds of shots. But wait, let me gues, you all will say I just imagined it right? Just like homeopathic medicine does not work yet I can attest to the fact that the teething pellets are a miracle in a bottle and work much better than Oragel and Tylenol! They may not work on major illness and I will admit there is a need for "traditional" medicine, I will also admit that sometimes homeopathics DO work and overdosing kids with antibiotics is NOT always the answer. Why can there not be a balance of both. Why is it all or nothing with so many of you?

But wait, let me gues, you all will say I just imagined it right?

My response is more "Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens".

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Actually Matthew cline is correct to say that vaccination does not provide immunization.

Like natural infection, vaccination promotes infection. It is a must. Primary infection either by natural infection or vaccination MUST occur so that upon re-exposure or re-infection to the same pathogen only then the immunity (secondary immune response/anamnestic response) can be evaluated.

If it did there would be no need for boosters.

Booster is a childish term for re-infection or re-exposure to the same pathogen. Yeah booster, sounds good doesn't it?

In addition, they would be 100% effective and they are not since many who have been vaccinated still get sick.

Well they got sick because they were primary infected, guess what, by vaccines.

The only real immunity comes from allowing your body to fight off disease.

Well, there is a thing we call innate immunity. But first, you have to know the real infection promoters--the pro-pox and the pro-vax.

If you read the FDAs report, they clearly tell you that the problem was that 1. The pellets did not have the same amount on them. They were not consistent. 2. There was not a child safety lid.

OK, one more time, real slow:

ISSUE: FDA notified consumers that Hylandâs Teething Tablets is being recalled because the tablets may pose a risk to children. The tablets are manufactured to contain a small amount of belladonna, a substance that can cause serious harm at larger doses. For such a product, it is important that the amount of belladonna be carefully controlled. FDA laboratory analysis has found that Hylandâs Teething Tablets contain inconsistent amounts of belladonna.

FDA has received reports of serious adverse events in children taking this product that are consistent with belladonna toxicity. The FDA has also received reports of children who consumed more tablets than recommended, because the containers do not have child resistant caps.

Remember, you brought them up to start with.

Marsha

Tomorrow I'll be posting an urgent message to everyone

I missed Orac's dissection of that study (will eventually catch up on what I've missed)however when I followed Marsha's link to Health Freedoms and read in the intro:

The data was collected from parents with vaccine-free children via an internet questionnaire by vaccineinjury.info and Andreas Bachmair, a German classical homeopathic practitioner.

I really couldn't help laughing out loud.
Poor Marsha.

By Sauceress (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Actually narad, the Walmart in my state gave us 5,000 and a Walmart apron to use in my science lab so I am all good but thanks for checking

So you won at the state level. Great, I hope the award was put to good use. But are you now asserting that you did this three times?

Can't wait for the unintentional lulzs and stupidity that marsha will bring.

It'll certainly give me a good laugh at her.

Poor Marsha.
Did she get around to apologising to Orac for accusing him of suppressing her comments? Or at least to admitting a mistake?

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Poor Th1Th2. Still it's trying desperately to swing some attention away from our antivaxx visitors toward itself.

By Sauceress (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Did she get around to apologising to Orac for accusing him of suppressing her comments?

I was thinking of the fact that it's taken three months for the regurgitation of that little piece of antivaxx proaganda to reach her.

By Sauceress (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Now. Now I get it!

It's time for New Year's Eve festivities to start here (in Oz).

All these recent visitors providing sparkling wit and shocking revelations are the internet equivalent of fireworks. Crash, bang, wheeee as the catherine wheels spin and the rockets spray fountains of spectacular colour.

And it's just as well for the internet eruptions. We're not allowed hand held sparklers here because of the fire risk. So I have to make do with the wordy variety.

Thanks to all of you. Sooooo much.

Teacher:

As for teaching your kids, I will pass. I don't need another pain in the ass parent who thinks he knows all but really knows nothing.

Clearly there isn't room for two of that kind of person in your classroom.

As a teacher (although not an award-winning one yet), I just have to say that I am appalled at the way you have chosen to conduct yourself here. First, I have known a lot of great teachers, many National Board certified, and I have never seen any of them brag about what a great teacher they are. Humility is a trait that virtually every great teacher I've ever known has had, and you clearly lack it. Second, your experience as a teacher gives you no special credibility or knowledge of vaccines - none. I don't care if you do have a Walmart apron for your science lab; it doesn't change the fact that you obviously don't know how science is done outside the classroom.

And as an English teacher, let me also add that Chris's writing is definitely clear enough for a careful reader to understand. The fact that you made the leap to suggest that Chris was implying a link between homeopathic teething tablets and cardiac problems as teenagers shows that 1) you aren't a very careful reader and 2) that you were more than willing to assume and accuse Chris of the least charitable reading. It's not a big deal that you misread it (it's a bigger one that you were so willing to slander a rhetorical opponent, but still forgivable), so just 'fess up to it. Great teachers also admit their mistakes rather than making excuses and blaming others. (If I was grading you in an introductory education course, you'd definitely get points off in the affective domain.)

By The Christian Cynic (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Teacher, it is too late to excuse your poor reading comprehension. We've gotten quite a laugh at your lack of logic. Though it is partly my fault, I should keep all the words I write to under three syllables (oh, rats that has three!). "Comprehension" means that you actually know what the words mean, and that you can get what someone is saying by how they are arranged (that is called "grammar").

Is that better?

Now, here is something you can do to redeem yourself. Tell us exactly which vaccines on the pediatric schedule (that means those shots and oral vaccines given to children) are only available with thimerosal (that is the "evil" stuff that some claim are the same as mercury, which has more than two syllables, I figure you know it since you keep typing it in all CAPS... that means you use the "caps lock" on your keyboard, the part of the computer you type with, and the computer is what you are using to grace us with your thoughts).

So, really, why are you still hung up on something that was removed from vaccines ten years ago.

(Do you know how hard it is to use words of less than three syllables!? Cripes! Even "syllables" has more than two!)

By the way, Teacher, do you know a better way to keep kids from getting antibiotics? (Wow, you used a four syllable word! Woot!) It is to prevent bacterial infections by giving them vaccines like the DTaP, Hib and PCV. If you have actual evidence the vaccines are more dangerous than the bacterial diseases of diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, haemophilus influenzae type b or Streptococcus pneumoniae then please provide it.

If you can't, I suggest you work getting some supplementary education credits in reading comprehension, science, logic and basic statistics. Don't do it just for your students, but for yourself. It will make you look less like an idiot.

Poor Th1Th2. Still it's trying desperately to swing some attention away from our antivaxx visitors toward itself.

I never doubted RI's pathognomonic manipulative behavior. I feel sorry for the other antivaxxers who fell prey to such gambit.

@Teacher:

Actually Matthew cline is correct to say that vaccination does not provide immunization. If it did there would be no need for boosters. In addition, they would be 100% effective and they are not since many who have been vaccinated still get sick. The only real immunity comes from allowing your body to fight off disease.

The reason booster shots are needed, and that vaccines aren't 100% effective, is that they expose the immune system to much less of the disease's antigens then the full-blown disease would.

By Matthew Cline (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Matthew Cline:

The reason booster shots are needed, and that vaccines aren't 100% effective, is that they expose the immune system to much less of the disease's antigens then the full-blown disease would.

It is also not reasonable to expect vaccines to produce better immunity than getting the actual infection, especially for the bacterial kind. There is no natural immunity to tetanus if you survive (very similar to not getting immunity to strep throat infections, which can turn into Scarlet Fever).

Also, even spending three months trying to cough your lungs out with pertussis can only protect you for as little as four years:
Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2005 May;24(5 Suppl):S58-61.
Duration of immunity against pertussis after natural infection or vaccination.

This is a must read: If Vaccines Work.... Think of it as protection from the Nirvana Fallacy.

New year celebrations about to start here in Perth (Aus)too...so which one of you wonderful people left the lid off the can of batsh*t crazy?

To teacher - I am a qualified Education Support teacher here in Oz - you are always welcome in my classroom - all of the students could teach you a thing or two.

By Loveyourwork (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

Teacher

What do you think about chemtrails?

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 30 Dec 2011 #permalink

@ Scryer:
@ Nikki Lynn;

Oh, thank you so much for coming forward! I would offer you both drinks but it's rather difficult reaching across cyberspace. Please sit down, get comfortable- you're amongst friends. Since it'll soon be New Year's I am hoping that a certain Scottish gentleman** will stop by and sing "Auld Long SineWave" or whatever it is that they sing. So stick around. Step right over the trolls. We all do.
___________________________________________________________

The trolls don't bother me. I have an AI disease so I'm used to the nut cases who claim you better off not listening to science.

I do have to say though that this site attracts some very unique and angry trolls.

Ah well, variety is the spice of life :)

By Nikki Lynn (not verified) on 31 Dec 2011 #permalink

@joshsmom #450 and #451

Notice how the very young are grouped with the elderly and renally diseased.

I posted a reference to that review for those who are interested in an intelligent discussion, not for people to scour desperately to try to find something to support their lost cause, and then to display their ignorance by triumphantly waving around something that doesn't support their cause at all.

If you are honestly interested in learning the truth about this, please read on.

Look at Table 1 where it gives the daily exposure to aluminum from various sources and how much is absorbed into the blood. Notice how vaccines, based on 20 injections in the first 6 years of life and an average weight of 20 kilograms, account for 0.07â0.4 micrograms per kilogram of body weight per day, that's because they are almost insoluble salts injected into muscle where they slowly leach into the blood.

Notice how the bottom half of that table which shows sources of aluminum exposure that have resulted in elevated blood levels. They include antacids, air exposure in industrial workers, dialysis fluids (used to remove accumulated toxins from people with renal failure) and parenteral fluids (used to feed people intravenously). Notice that antacids can lead to 80 micrograms/kg/day being absorbed into the bloodstream, that's 200 times as much as the daily absorption from vaccines. In a 70 kg adult, taking antacids could result in the absorption of 5,600 micrograms of aluminum (more than there is in the entire childhood vaccine schedule) in one day. Dialysis fluid, and parenteral fluids can lead to up to 9 and 27 micrograms per kg per day being absorbed respectively, that's 22.5 and 67.5 times as much as vaccines respectively.

That's why people with impaired renal function are advised to avoid using aluminum-based antacids, and why dialysis fluids and parenteral solutions are now carefully monitored for aluminum, as these large amounts are known to cause problems.

Elevated blood levels of aluminum that are sometimes seen in renal patients are regarded as dangerous when they reach 200 micrograms per liter, but injection of vaccines barely increases blood levels from the normal 5 micrograms per liter at all and cannot possibly reach toxic levels.

Do you now see why I cannot take claims that there are dangerously toxic amounts of aluminum in vaccines seriously? You wouldn't claim that the small amount of salt in breast milk is toxic because 20 (or 200) times as much could cause problems in someone with renal impairment would you? Or that water is toxic because drinking 20 liters at a time could kill you?

Still no support for Dr. Offit's statement of aluminum as an "essential metal"

I wasn't suggesting that the review supports Dr. Offit's statement that aluminum is an essential metal. Even if he is incorrect about that, which I doubt, what is important is that the small amounts of aluminum in vaccines are insufficient to cause toxic effects, even in the renally impaired (that's what the very young, the elderly and the renally diseased have in common, in case you didn't know).

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 31 Dec 2011 #permalink

The reason booster shots are needed, and that vaccines aren't 100% effective, is that they expose the immune system to much less of the disease's antigens then the full-blown disease would. we, the vaccinators, are infection promoters and we want to infect you all over again.

Now that's what I call Science.

Chris,

There is no natural immunity to tetanus if you survive (very similar to not getting immunity to strep throat infections, which can turn into Scarlet Fever).

Ah myth. Non-medical persons should never be allowed to discuss about Immunology, heck, even Orac the citation-less herd immunity fanatic.

Natural immunity to tetanus is gained, as in many other diseases, through adequate, repeated, and prolonged antigenic stimulation that sensitizes the immune system. The opportunities for achieving immunity increase with age, and this is well reflected in our data. It may be hypothesized that repeated exposures over many years to the tetanus bacilli (perhaps by growth of the bacilli in the tissue or by colonization of the digestive system), with relatively small amounts of toxins produced, may ultimately both immunize and provide a booster to the individual. Since the tetanus bacilli are ubiquitous, it is not unexpected that in primitive cultures where women and men perform agricultural tasks resulting in repeated  exposure to soil, the tetanus immunity is not sex dependent.

h_ttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC261948/?page=2

You would not inoculate a naive child if there isn't a natural immune response to tetanus but why do you keep jabbing them even in the absence of Ab titer? 
Ah Chris' world of mysticism is getting smaller by the day. 

Concerning the study I posted that the great, 'NOT', Orac picked apart & the fact he did that shows the threat that study was. Just like with this bogus article of deception trying to cover up & taint what we are doing to raise awareness.

I hear posts were removed that didn't fit the guidelines of this snake pit where I doubt sincere people are regulars & I bet they included mine, right? Can't let all that truth stay, huh? Pick that statement apart people & have fun. Stand by for that important message that I promised. Getting my animals fed & then my coffee & I'll be back.

@ Teacher. Thank you for trying to get through to these people but I wouldn't waste too much time here. This forum is run by professional shills that love money more than children. I'm sending these fools an urgent warning that could save their own children from disease and/or death & then I have bigger fish to fry.

I do not remove or censor posts, except in very rare circumstances. Ask my regulars if you don't believe me.

To back Orac up, Marsha, I've had posts go into moderation. Even posts with no links and no swear words. I then write "Comment of mine in moderation" and wait. Invariably, Orac frees it.

More on aluminum toxicokinetics for those who are interested in some honest science.

We are constantly exposed to aluminum in food, water and air, some of which is absorbed into our blood of which most is excreted in urine and to a lesser extent in our stools through bile. As long as the amount the body absorbs does not exceed the amount it can excrete there is no problem. If the body absorbs more than it can excrete, whether because the amount it is exposed to is increased, or because its ability to excrete aluminum is impaired, it can accumulate toxic levels. The important question is whether vaccines expose a child's body to a greater amount of aluminum than it can excrete.

For people with normal kidney function aluminum is not a problem as the kidneys are capable of excreting far more aluminum than we are normally exposed to. Even aluminum antacids which can lead to absorption of more than 5000 micrograms of aluminum per day are not a problem in people with normal kidney function. So we know that people with normal kidney function can excrete at least 5000 micrograms of aluminum every day.

What about people with impaired renal function, which includes the very young (especially premature babies), the very old (most old people show some degree of renal impairment) and those with kidney disease? We know that "patients with impaired renal function, including premature neonates, who receive >4â5 µg/kg/d of aluminum may experience central nervous system and bone toxicity" and that over the first 6 years of their lives children receive a maximum of 0.4 micrograms of aluminum per kilogram per day from vaccines. So vaccines contain only a tenth of the amount of aluminum that might cause problems in infants with impaired renal function.

By the way, the evidence for the slow absorption of aluminum adjuvants into the bloodstream after i.m. injection can be found here and is based on experiments with rabbits. "Two rabbits were given i.m. 26Al hydroxide, 2 rabbits were given 26Al phosphate adjuvant and 1 rabbit was given i.v. 26Al citrate. In the first 2 days, 40% more 26Al was absorbed from 26Al hydroxide than from 26Al phosphate. Within the first 28 days, 17% of the 26Al from aluminium hydroxide and 51% of the 26Al from aluminium phosphate was absorbed, when compared to the area-under-the-curve for the aluminium citrate." In other words after a month, only 17% of the aluminum hydroxide and 51% of the aluminum phosphate had been absorbed into the bloodstream from the i.m. injection sites. The muscles and circulatory system of rabbits and humans are similar enough that we can safely assume that aluminum adjuvants injected into human muscle will take a similar length of time to be absorbed into the bloodstream.

Evidence for the undetectable changes in serum aluminum levels after vaccination can be found in Hem SL. Elimination of aluminum adjuvants. Vaccine 2002;20:S40-3.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 31 Dec 2011 #permalink

"Teacher" is reminding me of my cousin's boyfriend, who was so desperate to make himself the center of attention at a family gathering that he prodded me into reciting fourth-grade bio basics despite the fact that he claims to teach high school science at a selective high school. And then he tried to tell bigoted "jokes" with a lead-in that instead had me and my girlfriend doing Transgender 101; I assume he already knew what we were saying, but a couple of the other guests may have learned something.

So, "Teacher," (a) Do you teach at Stuyvesant High School? and (b) Do you believe a word of what you're saying about vaccines?

Another post on aluminum toxicokinetics just went into moderation, but in the meantime...

@ Teacher. Thank you for trying to get through to these people but I wouldn't waste too much time here. This forum is run by professional shills that love money more than children.

Translation - run away, there are people here who understand science and are willing to patiently explain it to people. So much for informed consent and telling people the truth.

Marsha you are spreading lies and misinformation that endanger children's lives. I worked as a biomedical scientist in clinical biochemistry for 25 years, I worked and socialized with research scientists, doctors, pediatricians, nurses and (the horror) people who worked for pharmaceutical companies, and I never got even the faintest hint that anyone was covering anything up, or suppressing anything at all.

The medical staff I worked with were hard-headed people, who cared deeply about their patients and frequently had to deal with death and make impossibly difficult decisions. They wouldn't take any bullshit from someone who told them to keep quiet about something that could either harm or help their patients. You have bought into a paranoid fantasy and you are spreading it to gullible people who will get hurt or worse hurt their children as a result.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 31 Dec 2011 #permalink

You know what, Thingie? I swear your answers are getting stupider and stupider. It wouldn't be worth responding to the nonsense you try to propagate, except that there are plenty of innocent bystanders online who might be suckered in by the deluge of half-baked anti-vaccine propaganda.

Here's where your last attempt shows itself to be ultimately full of FAIL:

Is the asterisk [*] not big enough for you?

*Herd immunity applies to immunisation or infection, human to human transmitted or otherwise.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC261948/?page=2

Believe it or not, I did see your asterisk and your link. But I wonder if you took the time to go past the headline? It was published in 1985! Twenty-six years ago. I should hope medical research has done some progress since then... Not only that, but the authors acknowledge that their study is small (57 persons in one group, 58 in another) and the groups compared not demographically balanced.

But even if we grant that this study could still be useful today, haven't you noticed the authors' conclusion? It's there in black and white:

Because the disease is still taking a heavy toll in developing countries, killing 500,000 to 1,000,000 children each year, one should note that it is imperative to implement immunization in those countries.

Because even if some people can develop a level of natural immunity sufficient to ward off disease without being vaccinated, it doesn't mean that all children are able to do so! Or to retain immunity all their life in the absence of boosters. It's frustrating that the human species has so much genetic variation, but it's true.

And the proof is that at the time this study was conducted, up to a million of children died of tetanus each year. This is what happen if one trusts only nature.

@IreneD; Lilady and many others here will tell you that trying to reason with the Thing-Dong is really impossible. She has her own dictionary and defines things willy-nilly to suit her purposes. Even if you attempt to ask her to explain what she wants (besides stopping all vaccines) she does not answer. So unless you really want to wrestle with a bowl of ooze, you may just want to ignore her as many others do.
On a side note, Lilady, I fully applaud your efforts to try and take the odious Thing-dong out of the sewer and weep at you inability to do so. I am on your side.

IreneD,

Hey! Pull yourself together and fix your blockquotes. You're mixing them all together. What a mess.

Thing-Dong,
Hey, pull yourself together and fix your logic. You're mixing them all together. What a fool.

*raises hand*

I'm a friend of the blog, and I've ended up with comments in temporary moderation when they were only a couple short paragraphs. Blogs tend to have software for blocking spam, and it gets overzealous.

I've had a laughably stupid, racist troll run afoul of my blogspot's software, and I ended up reposting his stupidity through my account just so that others would get a chance to eviscerate it. And yet, he still cried censorship because he just knew I was magically aware of his post and the details of its content the exact second he clicked 'submit,' even though it takes up to a minute or two for the notification email to reach me, some time for me to notice the email, and more time to read several long paragraphs. If I was 'afraid' of what so-called truths he was preaching, it was temporally impossible and entirely inconsistent with my behavior of reposting his incoherent rants just so that I could point out the logical fallacies, his naivete about human nature, and laugh at him. But it's perfectly within the power of computer software to notice key words and phrases and block the post in milliseconds.

If you want to see real censorship, visit an anti-vax site. They love their ban hammers.

@ Marsha

I hear posts were removed that didn't fit the guidelines of this snake pit where I doubt sincere people are regulars & I bet they included mine, right? Can't let all that truth stay, huh? Pick that statement apart people & have fun.

Marsha, adjust your hat, your paranoia is showing. Sometimes, it just isn't about you. Pretty much everyone here has had comments go into moderation. If you've got evidence of comments being removed (suggestion: screen shots), then by all means provide them. Otherwise, shut up.

Stand by for that important message that I promised. Getting my animals fed & then my coffee & I'll be back.

Oh goody. "The anticipation is dreadful. I hope it lasts."