The boneyard of forgotten woo, but better

I guess Orac doesn't support orgone products either. Or Rife machines. Technically the only way to really lose weight is by diet, exercise and HGH.

Orac is wrong in some cases. High doses of vitamin C directly injected into some tumors cause the tumors to vanish. The same thing goes for baking soda.

Did you know that in some patients of Parkinsons disease thepatient has high levels of lead in the brain. My guess is to chelate the lead out the the patient will get better. Perhaps not entirely cured, but better than having a lead brain.

Orac again is somehwhat wrong again. There are toxins in vaccines. Aluminum is a toxin.

While there may not be any real fetal parts in vaccines, I guess Pepsi bought the rights for that. I can forsee our future being bright. Example:

Flouride water to reduce IQ levels and make people more less suceptible to rebelling against order. GMO foods only being available, no real food for consumption as raw milk and homegrown non hybrid non GMO vegetables will be outlawed. Everyone required to recieve some type of aluminum laced death vaccine. Scientists unleashing new superbugs. The banning of colloidal silver for the use of killing bacteria, viruses, and fungi as only it can.
And to top it all off, fetus Pepsi.

I WILL NOT CONFORM! Death to teh new World Order.

Camp FEMA here I come. Hope the guards like filty little half crazed contitutional conservative madmen.

Oh, and tell HAARP I have my own 5mhz transmitter now. Let the war games begin. Hope they like earthquakes and tornadoes in alaska.

Orac has fornicated his "science" blob with dirty pictures of boobies. All hail orac.

Rather dissapointing. I thought there would be pictures of coffee enemas. maybe NJ can give us a demonstration.

NJ is easily recognizable. All ya gotta do is recognize his style, out him and prod him a little bit. And out comes a torrent of looney. The truly funny thing is that he doesn't realize that he's making a permanent record of his being unhinged.

Viewed objectively, it's a sad testament to the failure of his mother and father to teach him wrong from right.

He has a few obvious tells - aka Robin Hood is one, as are discussions of SB, Orac, (my personal favorite) puppeteered socks and underwear.

Once outed, he tends to rant a bit (search SB for examples) in dazed flouridated confusion, so if our gracious host has a policy against such behavior, he may want to keep an eye out.

FIFTY.

Orac has fornicated his "science" blob with dirty pictures of boobies. All hail orac.

Rather dissapointing. I thought there would be pictures of coffee enemas. maybe NJ can give us a demonstration.

NJ is easily recognizable. All ya gotta do is recognize his style, out him and prod him a little bit. And out comes a torrent of looney. The truly funny thing is that he doesn't realize that he's making a permanent record of his being unhinged.

Viewed objectively, it's a sad testament to the failure of his mother and father to teach him wrong from right.

He has a few obvious tells - aka Robin Hood is one, as are discussions of SB, Orac, (my personal favorite) puppeteered socks and underwear.

Once outed, he tends to rant a bit (search SB for examples) in dazed flouridated confusion, so if our gracious host has a policy against such behavior, he may want to keep an eye out.

FIFTY.

Orac has gone too far. he has fornicated his site by showing dirty pictures. I only see boobs, but perhaps NJ will give us the coffee enema demonstration ...

NJ is easily recognizable. All ya gotta do is recognize his style, out him and prod him a little bit. And out comes a torrent of looney. The truly funny thing is that he doesn't realize that he's making a permanent record of his being unhinged.

Viewed objectively, it's a sad testament to the failure of his mother and father to teach him wrong from right.

He has a few obvious tells - aka Robin Hood is one, as are discussions of SB, Orac, (my personal favorite) puppeteered socks and underwear.

Once outed, he tends to rant a bit (search SB for examples) in dazed flouridated confusion, so if our gracious host has a policy against such behavior, he may want to keep an eye out.

FIFTY.

chris, the person with no chromosomes, assumed wrong.

Chris is no longer my stalker, but NJ (Willie Flowers) has done a prety good job trying to keep up. Too bad that coffee enema will slow im down significantly. It may even chealte some flouride out of his stupid canadian brain.

NJ is easily recognizable. All ya gotta do is recognize his style, out him and prod him a little bit. And out comes a torrent of looney. The truly funny thing is that he doesn't realize that he's making a permanent record of his being unhinged.

Viewed objectively, it's a sad testament to the failure of his mother and father to teach him wrong from right.

He has a few obvious tells - aka Robin Hood is one, as are discussions of SB, Orac, (my personal favorite) puppeteered socks and underwear.

Once outed, he tends to rant a bit (search SB for examples) in dazed flouridated confusion, so if our gracious host has a policy against such behavior, he may want to keep an eye out.

FIFTY.

That thing reminds me of something I saw in a book of quackery a long time ago. It was a 'rejuvenator' device designed to 'give thrust' to a mans activities and from memory the electrodes had to be attached to, well, nowadays you'd end up facing a war crimes tribunal if you tried it...

Forgotten? These still exist (albeit in a less elaborate form) and are heavily marketed on late night television.

http://www.amazon.com/AB-Sonic-Electronic-Massage-Belt/dp/B000MVKVBA

I saw an episode of Storage Wars on AE this past weekend where they uncovered a "bleeder." Of course, designed to help get a patient's "humours" in balance by bleeding them. It was mentioned that this process was what killed George Washington.

We've come a long way baby (and I wish people would remember that).

I've seen similar devices marketed with similar claims on Bulgarian TV. Google "Abtronic", though they periodically resurface under a new name. Another confirmation that "no woo ever truly dies"?

Some of these old quack devices are absolutely hilarious.
I just wish it had not caused people to waste their time, money and health on these things.

As a physical therapist who graduated a few (ahem) years ago, we played around with devices similar to this for muscle stimulation. We did have to use wet felt or sponge to conduct the electricity but I think the units we used were slightly safer. However, the uses of muscle stimulation have slowly dropped off the map; yes you can get a paralyzed muscle to contract but it won't make it work again.
I have always said, if these stimulators worked as well as they claim, then all of us physical therapists would be buff as hell.

I'm surprised that burns were not listed as an injury, as I seem to recall that modern variations on this device can cause burns at the sites of the electrodes.

I don't get it. Surely you could get just as much exercise by fidgeting and twitching, without having to pay any money.

Gah! Not safe for work warning please! I was reading this at work and suddenly realized I had pictures of breasts on my computer. Fortunately, neither of my office mates noticed.

David, you're in luck. Here's what (at first glance, anyway) appears to be a free source for "Mad Men" seasons 1 -4:

http://tv.blinkx.com/show/mad-men/PZ_Kvpx9gbue3Y2zFbmUdsyx0Ww#s1

Matthew Cline wrote:

I don't get it. Surely you could get just as much exercise by fidgeting and twitching, without having to pay any money.

According to ads for a device similar to the one delictuscoeli links to at #2 (which I saw on Swedish television in the late nineties or early naughties), the clever part is that while you may forget to fidget, this marvelous piece of hightech keeps you contracting and relaxing your muscles as long as it's on, leaving your mind free to do whatever undubitably sophisticated things you generally do that caused you to put on a few extra pounds in the first place. Basically, it promises a great body without the need for thought or effort.

Me, I'd think having your stomach (or wherever you put the unholy thing) musculature constantly stimulated would be horrifyingly distracting, but, to be honest, I haven't tried.

As a physical therapist who graduated a few (ahem) years ago, we played around with devices similar to this for muscle stimulation. We did have to use wet felt or sponge to conduct the electricity but I think the units we used were slightly safer. However, the uses of muscle stimulation have slowly dropped off the map

They're still in use. A couple of months ago the physiotherapist, who was freshly graduated, placed electrode pads on my badly bruised back muscle. I felt nothing, then a slow build-up to skin crawling, then nothing, and the cycle repeats. Don't know how crawling skin sensation helps with a deep muscle bruise. The hot pad felt great though. I didn't go back as she missed diagnosing the full injury and the breathing exercise (breathing against a towel around lower ribs) resulted in crippling pain for the next four or five days.

The clinic itself is supposed to be highly regarded, but I noticed a few woo brochures (they offer reiki, for example). I'll have to ask my sister, a well-practiced physiotherapist now studying for her MCATs, if electric pads are still widely used in her province and what other physios think about them.

Chiropractors do this sort of thing routinely. Supposedly it "improves circulation" and that "eliminates accumulated lactic acid" from the muscle.

So yeah, definitely not a relic of the past.

But where are the magnets? Aren't you aware that magnets' nearly miraculous powers can do wonders for healing and re-juvenation? There was a Dr Philpot... enough said.

I imagine this is one of the earlier weapons in woo's ever-increasing armatorium to combat aging**- actually, the *appearance* of aging. This is the often un-spoken message in woo-vertisements: you'll look better- younger, thinner, less wrinkles, and one of my absolute *faves*: you can grow ( more/ thicker/ less grey) hair. There is hilarious material about vegan diets, nutrients, B vitamins, Chinese herbalism, woo-tinged alternatives to androgen-blockers( phyto-estrogens etc).

But some woo aims higher: to attack the hidden causes of aging via de-tox and wait for it.... ways to increase telemere length through diet and exercise. Then there's the *anti-aging medicine* brigade( the A4) who meet and present their 'research' yearly.
(btw- I *like* her toga!)

**there's only one way to stop aging.

My ex's mother had a device like that in the latter half of the 1980s. The whole family was into it. Her brother is a quack (iridologist, "lemonade" purge-fast type of thing, total loon) who talked her into it. They all used to take turns "toning" their muscles with the damn thing, including my ex. I don't recall it having much of a discernable effect on any of them, but they swore up and down that it did.

It's difficult to overestimate primal human fears. The fear of fluoridation in NJ (see today's NYT) is a classic example. We're a adapted to the stone age when neither vaccination nor fluoridation were concerns.

the clever part is that while you may forget to fidget, this marvelous piece of hightech keeps you contracting and relaxing your muscles as long as it's on

I have a cat who does this for a lot cheaper. And she purrs at the same time so you get that nice soothing aural effect as well (plus she's self-heating).

Now if she'd only take care of those claws.

Transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation (TENS) are used in a lot of areas for various reasons. Do a pubmed search for TENS stimulation and you'll get a ton of results.

In any case, the device as described in the episode doesn't sound quite as elaborate as the real Relax-A-Cizor. Still, I can't think of a better advertising agency than Sterling Cooper to promote a quack device like this, along with Lucky Strikes.

In the Mad Men episode, it turns out that the 'Relax-a-Cizor is not really a quack device. That is, the weight-loss claims are bogus, sure -- but they're only a cover. Peggy discovers that the real point of the machine is female masturbation. She then tries to figure out how to market this without, you know, actually saying that this is what it's for.

The ad men who had given a free sample to their wives are very much discomfited when they finally grasp the reason their wives are so pleased with "the results."

Looking at the actual 'Relax-a-Cizor, I can't tell if this off-label use would actually work. Maybe. People can be ingenious when they want to be. Where there's a will ...

I might need a Spirograph to make a Venn diagram of all of the things intersecting here. Nudity, ad nostalgia, fraud, bondage, technology, and even some Greek architecture. Sexy.

@ unre9istered: NSFW Warning: http://www.flexmini.com/

And, more good news...Mad Men season premiere (2 hours!), Sunday, March 25 on AMC TV.

I actually worked in trade magazines advertising years ago, and the salesmen were very much like Don Draper...he's such a cad.

These devices still exist. My mother-in-law gave me such device (called Abgymnic, as far as I recall) at the turn of the century. I might still have it in the depths of my wardrobe - I haven't even opened the box.
Oh, and I think they recommended using a USG gel to wet the pad before putting it in place.

Some of these old quack devices are absolutely hilarious.

My favorites are those urns that would make your water radioactive. I mean, my favorites up until the point that you remember people took that stuff seriously and got hurt doing so. :(

I hope I can be safely amused by these, though?
http://www.retronaut.co/2011/07/vintage-exercise-machines/

I don't get it. Surely you could get just as much exercise by fidgeting and twitching, without having to pay any money.

That's my preferred method. I need to find a way to market it. Also, to re-grow my fingernails.

Do these things send current across the heart? Could it interfere with the electrical signal that causes the heart to beat?

TENS units may cause muscle contractions, but that is a side effect and not usually intended as the first effect. I have used muscle stim on the back, although now that I work in acute care, I had forgotten that. I tended to use it more for trying to relax an overactive muscle (I hate to use the term spasm as that is a term overused, incorrectly).
For LADave, we were warned not to use across the heart for the reasons you state but I think it is a precaution that has not been tested on humans as the IRBs look dimly on research that may cause potential heart attacks.

When I had PT for a rotator cuff injury, a TENS unit was one of the things involved, along with icing, I think manipulation, and some stretches and exercises that I am supposed to keep doing for the rest of my life. (It's tedious, but surgery would be worse than tedious.) They didn't suggest that this was a weight loss technique; I know someone who is using one of these long-term for pain relief, and again, no suggestion that it might cause weight loss.

My mother had a TENS-type device for some years, though I don't recall whether she got it from a reputable or a woo-ish souce. She used it to help relieve spasticity in the muscles of her left hand (she was hemiplegic after a cerebral hemorrhage). Anecdatally, it seemed to do the job.

Woomeister@26:

Aluminum...flouride (sic)...new World Order...Camp FEMA...HAARP

If this isn't Rob Hood, the undertreated mentally ill character who skulks around SB, its doing a pretty good imitation!

NJ, I assumed it was a Poe.

Where does it say that such devices were advertised by CAM practitioners?

Once you've said that the device is quackery and was obvious quackery even when it first came out, it's pure semantics whether you call those who would employ obvious quackery "CAM proponents" or not.

Sorry Shay but you asked for this.... maybe you should start a clinic?
http://www.intmedtourism.com/en/news/187.html

Where does it say that such devices were advertised by CAM practitioners?

So you agree that CAM is quackery and/or woo? 'Cause your comment is the first mention of CAM or its cognates in this thread. Woo and quackery, on the other hand, appear in double digit quantities each.

Chris@33: Oh, my sainted aunt. I wonder how much money these charlatans are making off those poor moggies?

(Enough to keep them fed, one hopes).

Another tale of historical major-woo, complete with a sex-obsessed pastor and "naturalistic" remedies is revealed when the science fiction site I09 takes a look back at 19th century:
http://io9.com/5890703/the-worst-science-fiction-novel-of-the-19th-cent…

quote:
"The Social War's author, Simon Mohler Landis (?-1902) , certainly has a record to match his novel. A Pennsylvanian clergyman, Landis claimed to be a doctor, although no proof of this could be found. He [...] seemed to be prospering, through a combination of lectures and selling products like Dr. Landis' Celebrated Patent Compound Electro-Magnetic Hot and Cold Air Bath and the Patent Compound Male and Female Magnitude Syringe and Organic Bath.

In 1865 he founded the "First Progressive Church of Philadelphia," and as its pastor wrote and A Strictly Private Book on Marriage: Secrets of a Generation (1870), a sexual education book that was so explicit (by the standards of the era) in the ensuing trial for obscenity the book was described as "so lewd and filthy, and obscene that it is unfit to be spread upon the records of this courtâ¦and hence to read in the presence of a public audience."

THANKS: kurt youngmann #10, that link you posted seems like a great site, now I can watch Dr. Who and other shows I can't find on hulu or anywhere online!

Dreamer -- The Road to Wellville by T.C. Boyle is a fictionalized account of the Kellogg Sanitorium in Michigan, where the wealthy went in the early 20th Century to be quack healed. IIRC Dr. Kellogg had an electrical stimulation device, among other gadgets. A customer gets electrocuted. There is also a doctor who uses vibrators on his female patients. It's funny and tragic at the same time. Orac would enjoy it if he ever has time for recreational reading.

As far as "pop culture", I can remember seeing an ad (I don't recall for what) in which a device like this was portrayed as a joke (ending with the buyer wearing it while eating junk food on the couch). Then there's something I was surprised wasn't mentioned already, the "Dead Like Me" episode "Reapercussions" revolves around such a device, dubbed the "Absolver".

The ironic thing is, this device doesn't seem completely useless, to the extent that it might, plausibly, burn off a few calories. And (notwithstanding "Dead Like Me") there's no obvious way it could actually electrocute someone; as long as it runs on batteries, it just won't have the power.

Whenever "quackery" is mentioned by those who accept only one true discipline of medicine - i.e. theirs - they infer that the practitioner is one from the non-orthodox camp.

However, it's been shown time and again, that the real botched jobs in medicine are (nearly) always doctors. And clearly specifying what kind of practitioner was practising the sham medicine is in not just a matter of semantics.

Witch:

However, it's been shown time and again, that the real botched jobs in medicine are (nearly) always doctors.

Really? Why should we believe someone who posted an article about the Cervarix vaccine not being able to treat women who already had an HPV infection and claimed it showed that showed that Gardisil did not prevent HPV? You have proven multiple times that you neither understand nor even read the scientific literature.

@Witch:

However, it's been shown time and again, that the real botched jobs in medicine are (nearly) always doctors.

Thank you Captain Tautology. Given that doctors practise medicine for a living and that there are literally millions of them, who did you expect would be responsible for most medical mistakes? Carpenters, perhaps?

Darn it!, I was hoping someone would post a link to somewhere I can buy an orgone box!

Yes, it's plausible that certain types of electroquackery and quacktronics might have actually been intended as masturbation machines. But all of those things were merely trying to catch up with the good old-fashioned motorized vibrator, that can be sold openly and with no medical claims, as a "massager." The ones that ...how to say this nicely?.... were shaped like bulbous flesh-toned rocket ships... were sold as "portable facial massagers" including through classified ads that showed drawings of women's faces looking very happy as they applied the rocket-shaped devices to their cheeks.

TENS is legit, and CES (cranial electrical stimulation) is legit. Anecdotally, I knew someone who was a chronic pot head, who successfully quit smoking pot with the aid of a little CES device with electrodes that clipped to her ears. I will admit to having tried it on myself, in a spirit of utter and total skepticism, and discovered that _yes_ it did get me "high," and _no_, that was not a placebo reaction (presumably placebo reactions don't occur when the subjects think the "treatment" is utterly ridiculous). So if CES gives you a little buzzy-buzz that can wean you off over-indulgence in stinky green herbs, wonderful! (Only later did I find out that these things are in fact FDA-approved, with prescription required.)

Bottom line for me about this stuff is: as long as it only causes risks to the person who does it to themselves, *fine.* The world is overpopulated, and voluntary reductions are always welcome. The thing that I have zero tolerance for, is anti-vax quackery, because anti-vaxers don't only put themselves at risk, but everyone else in the community as well, and that is beyond the pale.

I'll uncharacteristically close this post with a quote from song lyrics, seeing as they're relevant:

"I've got an orgone accumulator
and it makes me feel greater
I will see you sometime later
when I'm through with my accumulator..."
-Hawkwind.

Chris:
The Gardasil vaccination study showed there was no evidence of viral clearance and, hence, the vaccine was ineffective for the prevention of cervical cancer, that's if you're going along with the theory that HPV directly causes cervical cancer....

Clearance and prevention are not the same thing...

@Witch: I know others have explained this to you, but here I'm going to try:

the vaccine does NOT help someone who has the virus get rid of it (also known as TREATMENT).

The vaccine DOES help those who have not been exposed to the virus prior to the vaccine to not GET the virus if exposed to it after they've had the vaccine (Also known as PREVENTION).

The vaccine is for PREVENTION of the problem, not the TREATMENT.

Too right: Prevention is about nutrition and lifestyle, not woo-science, such as vaccination. Orthodox science is increasingly shooting itself in the foot with ever more findings that assumptions made are false and that drugs / vaccines prescribed are ineffective and, worse, dangerous.

An example about a false assumption: Vaccination is based on the false assumption that vaccines trigger a cellular immune response (antibodies).

See article on ScienceDaily.com, "Antibodies Are Not Required for Immunity Against Some Viruses", http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120301143426.htm, a new study turns the well established theory that antibodies are required for antiviral immunity upside down and reveals that an unexpected partnership between the specific and non-specific divisions of the immune system is critical for fighting some types of viral infections. The research, published online on March 1st in the journal Immunity by Cell Press, may lead to a new understanding of the best way to help protect those exposed to potentially lethal viruses, such as the rabies virus.

"Our findings contradict the current view that antibodies are absolutely required to survive infection with viruses like VSV, and establish an unexpected function for B cells as custodians of macrophages in antiviral immunity,"

Moseman et al.: "B Cell Maintenance of Subcapsular Sinus Macrophages Protects against a Fatal Viral Infection Independent of Adaptive Immunity."

http://labs.idi.harvard.edu/vonandrian/Pages/_Moseman%20Immunity%20onli…

MI Dawn - Let me explain to you:
Gardasil is marketed as an anti-cervical cancer vaccine. It does not prevent cervical cancer. Further, studies have shown is also does not clear HPV viral infection which is presumed to cause cervical cancer. Ergo the vaccine is sham medicine.

MI Dawn - Let me explain to you:

Gardasil is marketed as an anti-cervical cancer vaccine.

It does not prevent cervical cancer.

Further, studies have shown is also does not clear HPV viral infection which is presumed to cause cervical cancer. I haven't come across research to show that the vaccine prevents HPV infection, nor any proof that HPV infection causes cervical cancer. Is Gardasil another sham vaccine?

Witch, you must have read the Moseman et al. paper by now or else you wouldn't keep bringing it up. I'd be happy to discuss the findings of the paper with you, but first you need to demonstrate that you actually understand the article. Would you mind explaining in your own words the hypothesis that the authors were testing, how they tested it, and what their conclusions were based on the data? This should be very clear if you've properly read the article.

@ MI Dawn: Could it be Thingy's sock puppet or, Thingy's identical twin or, Thingy on some new medication?

@lilady: no, I think the English is too good for Witch to be related to It-who-must-not-be-named. And, Witch doesn't *seem* to have a thing about precious bodily fluids. Xe does seem to think that doctors don't push for good nutrition, exercise, smoking cessation - all parts of a healthy lifestyle. (And where are all these doctors who don't do that? I've never met any. I want to go to one who DOESN'T bother me about my lifestyle...NOT).

Xe also doesn't seem to understand that doctors don't make much money, if any, from vaccines. They'd make a LOT more money if they had to treat flu, measles, mumps, pertussis, etc, and so would the drug companies. So why on earth would they push something that PREVENTS them from making a lot of money?

And, Witch still does not apparently understand what vaccines are supposed to do. Sad, actually. At first, I thought Witch would give some intelligent arguments, but all xe does is twist research. Sad, really.

The Gardasil vaccination study showed there was no evidence of viral clearance

What Gardasil vaccination study?

herr doktor bimler:

What Gardasil vaccination study?

The one that was apparently really about the two strain HPV vaccine, Cervarix. I can't believe she has still not read it!

I think Witch is using Gardisil as a generic descriptor (like Aspirin or Tylenol)....because she can't be so stupid as to not realize the study she keeps referencing is about a completely different product.

(oh wait, of course she can)

We had a Relax-a-Cizer when I was a teen in the 1950s. My mother bought it from an ad in a monthly astrology magazine she faithfully read.

We had a Relax-a-Cizer when I was a teen in the 1950s. My mother bought it from an ad in a monthly astrology magazine she faithfully read.

Witch @ 50:
I haven't come across research to show that the vaccine prevents HPV infection, nor any proof that HPV infection causes cervical cancer.

Have you *looked* anywhere (for instance in the medical literature, or in Orac's archived posts)? If the expression "come across" is any indication, you could be aimlessly reading newspapers and collections of photographs of cats with amusingly misspelled captions, on the off-chance that you might stumble on a research report placed there by mistake.

Kai Lung's reminder that "It is a mark of insincerity of purpose to spend one's time in looking for the sacred Emperor in the low-class tea-shops" seems particularly apt.

MiDawn,

Doctors know very little about health, & lots about drugs & suppression of symptoms. I don't know where you live but where I'm from the only lifestyle advice you get is lose weight.If you're male, your advised to wear a condom. Their understanding of nutritional science is shameful.Every symptom you get is given a drug.

The average time in medical consultations is 10 minutes. How much can you get across in 10 minutes, even if you know what you're talking about? It takes 10 minutes to at least ask a few pertinent questions on lifestyle, let alone educate & motivate.

The idea that you go to your doctor for good health advice is laughable. The doctors I know personally,know less than I do about healthy living & I'm not in the healthcare profession.I personally know 6 doctors, 4 of whom are decidedly unhealthy & delude themselves & their patients by advising them. My wife & I have a big chuckle at that. 4 of them are on medication, imo unnecessarily, if they really knew about health & applied it. But they tell me it's being "managed" by drugs. My family would never go to a medical doctor for health advice. Sure, if I break a leg or need other emergency treatment they are great, but if I wanted advice on healthy living , which I don't, I would prefer a naturopath, thank you.

Years ago my doctor friends strongly advised me to stay out of the sun ( I surf a lot) because the sun was bad. Look who's wrong now & 2 of them have had skin cancer.

No wonder the drug companies subsidise medical education, they get a nice little return don't they? Doctors are glorified salesmen for the drug companies & should never promote themselves as health experts.