Remember last week, when I took note of how organized quackery's best friend in Congress, not to mention a shining example of crank magnetism, Representative Dan Burton of Indiana, was taking the opportunity of his having announced that he would not be running for reelection this year to write a typically brain dead post on his Congressional blog about the "autism epidemic"? In that post, Burton bought into the mythology of the "autism epidemic" and defended his previous efforts to root out that dreaded mercury in vaccines (and, of course, vaccines themselves) as the cause of this "autism epidemic."
And now, the antivaccine movement is taking advantage of this to paint autism as a "national emergency" and to demand hearings that would be a total waste of time and allow antivaccinationists to promote their agenda to a national audience. There's a press release from the Autism Action Network that I got, and, not surprisingly, the antivaccine crank blog Age of Autism is getting in on the action by reposting it:
Rep. Dan Burton Calls for Autism Hearings - Take Action!
Please Take Action to Support his Appeal
Representative Dan Burton recently published the letter below in The Hill calling for Congressional hearings into the causes of autism (including mercury and vaccines), the inadequacy of the Federal government's response to the autism epidemic, and the failure of the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program to assure a safe vaccine supply and provide justice to those injured by vaccines. No hearings by Congress have been held on these topics since those chaired by Burton himself more than 10 years ago. Burton is one of the few elected officials in the United States to have the courage and intellectual honesty to confront the autism epidemic and the many, many questions raised by a honest review of the facts. But he needs your help.
What You Can Do:
1) Please click on Take Action to send an email to your representative asking for support of Burton's call for hearings, and to support Burton's newly introduced bill, "White House Conference on Autism Act of 2011" (H.R. 3489), calling for a conference lead by the Whitehouse on the autism epidemic.
2) Congressman Burton is no longer the chair of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, though he remains an active member. He is requesting that Chairman Darrell Issa hold hearings on the VICP. However, given all the competing interests in Washington, we need to support Congressman Burton's leadership by showing broad community support for these hearings. We need every single one of you to go to these Facebook pages, the first is for the Committee, the second is for the Democratic Party members of the Committee, and express your support for hearings and a White House Conference on Autism.
We specifically want the following:
The U.S. House of Representatives Oversight and Government Reform Committee should initiate promised hearings as soon as possible on the failure of federal health agencies to appropriately respond to the autism epidemic. It has been ten years since this Committee examined the role of the federal authorities in the autism epidemic. We can think of no other instance where any comparable epidemic has gone on for so long without Congressional oversight.
3) Please share this email with friends and family and please post to Facebook and other social networks. And if you support the work of the Autism Action Network Please consider making a donation at www.autismactionnetwork.org/donation.org.
The original letter in the The Hill can be read here:
What follows after this is a repost of Burton's nonsensical stealth antivaccine (actually not-so-stealth) bit of antivaccine self-justification, followed by suggested text:
I support Congressman Dan Burton's call for hearings by the U.S. House of Representatives Oversight and Government Reform Committee on the failure of federal health agencies to appropriately respond to the autism epidemic. It has been ten years since this Committee examined the role of the federal authorities in the autism epidemic. We can think of no other instance where any comparable epidemic has gone on for so long without Congressional oversight.
I further support Rep. Burton's calls for hearings into the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. This was supposed to be a program that assured safe vaccines and provided quick and generous compensation for victims of vaccine injury. It no longer achieves any of those goals, but does provide the vaccine injury with complete immunity from the injuries caused by its products.
And lastly I ask for your support and co-sponsorship of H.R. 3489, the "White House Conference on Autism Act of 2011". It would require the President of the United States to convene, no later than December 31, 2012, a White House Conference on Autism charged with developing policy recommendations on ways to address the autism epidemic and its impact on Americans.
I have a better idea. How about those who support science-based medicine and reject antivaccine pseudoscience write e-mails suggesting that the House of Representatives support science-based autism research and not waste its time giving antivaccine groups like the Autism Action Network a platform from which they can grandstand? Let Rep. Burton be given the opportunity that he so richly deserves to retire in ignominious obscurity as the crank he is, rather than giving him one last chance to poison Congress with his antivaccine views before he slithers back home from the U.S. House of Representatives. It would be a fitting end indeed to the legislative career of organized quackery's best friend in Congress.
Autism, how to treat it, and how to help parents with children who have autism are all very important issues, but they are not a "national emergency." Painting autism as an "epidemic" and a "national emergency" serves only the purposes of the antivaccine movement to try to convince you that "environmental influences"--cough, cough...vaccines!--are the cause of autism when the science is about as close to certain as science can be that they aren't.
We should all be able to agree it's only common sense before spending limited resources addressing a problem there should be some credible evidence that problem actually exists.
Therefore before spending funds holding the requested hearings Congress should first require Burton demonstrate an actual autism epidemic is occuring, and the perceived increased incidence of autism isn't instead a function of changes in the DSM resulting in diagnostic substitution, coupled with increased surveillance.
Anne Dachel discusses, well actually, dismisses most of what Thomas Insel has to say about autism on a radio show that details new research into autism. Any suggestion that the increase in autism might be attributed to better diagnosis is cast to the four winds. Commenters don't appear to approve of him as well.
@ Thinking Moms' Revolution:
I nearly fainted** when I discovered that today's post actually contained useful, real world information - it's a recipe for Malaysian Bone Broth.
Unfortunately, I imagine it is probably prescribed for some woo-ish purpose, as collagen is mentioned.
Your suggestion is laudable but would require our congress critters to demonstrate a level of scientific literacy and forthrightness above and beyond anything we've seen in many years.
Maybe if put it to congress as "Every dime spent holding these hearings is one less dime we can spend on military contracts awarded to corporations in your districts"?
Goodbye Rep Burton, we will miss you not the least little bit. Perhaps you can go hang out with the vaccine-refusing nurses in the pertussis ward from the previous post.
Remember, autism is a life-long condition, so we need to do more than support parents and children.
Waste more money on the false notion of "an autism epidemic"? No. Invest more in community supports for adults with autism? Yes.
Thanks for the link to their "Action Alert."
I used it to send my own letter to my representative.
I have a great idea for reducing autism rates to pre-'50s levels; go back to locking up "weird" kids in attics or institutions and never talking about them or allowing them to be seen in public again.
*sigh* Dear AoA; the good ol' days... weren't.
Unfortunately, I imagine it is probably prescribed for some woo-ish purpose, as collagen is mentioned.
Mere use of the term "bone broth" for what any competent cook recognizes as "stock" is pretty much a giveaway of something WAPFish afoot.
I glanced at a Facebook post this morning linking to a golden oldie from Orac's favorite AOA author. The question: If a doctor works for an institution receiving large amounts of drug money and his research and career benefit from the money, does this set up an automatic conflict of interest? I might argue that it does not, but I wondered how Dave responded to this issue back then. I can't find a direct answer.
Thanks, in advance.
"What ultimately matters is that [ORAC] is conducting a clinical trial of a Sanofi-Aventis drug (undisclosed to his readers), sponsored by his Sanofi-Aventis-partnered university (also undisclosed to his readers), and he constantly writes blog posts that are favorable to Sanofi-Aventis. To show just how important Sanofi is to [ORAC], he even said in the comments section that if the drug fails his clinical trial for breast cancer, it would be a âmajor setbackâ for his research. Yet, instead of conceding that he is conflicted in this way, he attempts to talk his way out of the points I raised in the 84-word e-mail I sent to him with a 4,562-word smokescreen, followed by another 20,915 words from his loyal commenters."
@ Steve: Or...we could go back to the *good old days* circa 1970, before the passage of PL 94-142 (Education of all Handicapped Children Act) and before the *Liberals* in State Governments pushed for deinstitutionalization (See Willowbrook Consent Decree)...and establishment of small group homes.
How about going back just a few years prior to the passage of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act A/K/A "Obamacare", which every Republican candidate sought to roll back. The constitutionality of this law is now being reviewed by the United States Supreme Court.
Here is how Rick Santorium pays for the care of his disabled daughter...and how other parents who don't have Santorium's resources, "manage" to pay for medical care and therapies for their disabled children:
Yeah, the Canary Party, the political arm of AoA and other notorious anti-vaccine groups, wants to roll back the political timeline to the good old days, where your disabled child could be denied private insurance coverage.
Good old days....not!
re: re-hashing the Doctor's COIs by Dr Jay.
Here we go again!
Unfortunately, I have appointments or I would talk about the lovely world of financial COIs at length.
See you later.
Jay Gordon @10 -- I fail to see how receiving indirect benefits from a trial for a cancer drug would affect Orac's opinions regarding the causes of autism, or the effectiveness and desirability of vaccines.
How nice of you to drop in.
I suggest you read this article by orac's "friend" from two years ago.
Poor Jay is reduced to quoting Jake Cosby as a credible scource. Sadder and sadder...still funny though.
List of things which are closer to being classed as epidemic than Autism:
Hey this is OT but I need to thank Orac. That search window on the left is a joy to use and with it I can find and point the members on our cancer support site to great articles cutting down all the well known snake oil salesmen who peddle their BS to us. I had call to use it today.
A great big thank you from all of us
@ Dr. Jay Gordon: How *odd* that you are parroting what Jake Crosby puts on his Facebook page...does this mean that you and Jake are *BFF*?
Perhaps, when...and if...Jake is awarded a MPH degree...you would employ him...or at least provide him with a professional reference to put on his resume.
I still think you ought to update your website Dr. Jay, especially your opinion about Prevnar vaccine:
"The Prevnar vaccine is too new for me to recommend. The number of cases of Pneumococcal ear infections which could be prevented is very small and the number of cases of meningitis prevented is also small. I have no quarrel with doctors who recommend the shot or with parents who choose to get it. I have very strong objections to advertising this immunization to the general public on television. I donât think enough information can be disseminated in 60 seconds." (February 23, 2010)
Just how many years must a vaccine be licensed, and how many cases of invasive S. pneunomoniae diseases that have been averted...will it take Jay, for you to revise your website?
You have misunderstood my question. It wasn't Mr. Crosby's FB page and I was not citing him as an authority on Orac, COIs or anything else.
It was a serious question. I have written magazine stories or appeared on TV networks partially sponsored by everyone from formula manufacturers (whom I abhor) to pharmaceutical manufacturers. I have at times wondered how much of what I say I is influenced by wanting to avoid conflict with these funders.
David is not a "pharmashill." He's a longtime science blogger with whom I very often disagree. I'm sure Mr. Crosby intensely dislikes Orac (the feeling appears quite mutual) and Mr. Crosby is writing from that point of view.
Orac's job indirectly depends on money from the pharmaceutical industry. Privately and publicly, Orac will readily admit this so I find nothing wrong with pointing it out.
What I'm asking is a response to the possible COI in Orac's work and blogging.
Do, Dr Jay,
What was your source?
Did you read the blog article I linked to?
Was that not a sufficient response?
What sort of disclaimer should orac put in each blog article and comment?
Shouldn't you have a disclaimer that you earn money by being pediatrician to a major leader and spokes-person for the anti-vaccine movement?
. I have at times wondered how much of what I say I is influenced by wanting to avoid conflict with these funders.
You purposely pander as the pediatrician to petty performers, even proffering publicity prose to their publications.
You are a walking Conflict of Interest.
Jay, you might want to scroll up on RI...to see this:
I'm wondering Jay, why you chose to revive that scurrilous accusation made by Jake Crosby.
Oh and Jay, how does it feel to be treated as a pariah by your peers, because of your idiotic and unscientific opinions of vaccines?
I want to be sure that I understand Dr. Gordon's argument. It appears to be this:
Orac is a cancer researcher whose research depends on having safe and effective drugs from a source that he can trust not to deliberately kill or maim his patients. Therefore he has a positive incentive to lie about the well-known (to Dr. Gordon) fact that that source is deliberately putting out drugs that are not safe and not effective and known to kill and maim patients and lying about safety and effectiveness.
Did I get that right?
Jay Gordon: Pediatrician Warrior:
Jenny McCarthy's latest book, Mother Warriors: A Nation of Parents Healing Autism Against All Odds, contains a foreword penned by "pediatrician to the stars' children", Dr. Jay Gordon. Dr. Gordon (or, as he often refers to himself, Dr. Jay), is the pediatrician for Jenny McCarthy's son Evan, whose autism McCarthy blames on vaccines and whom she has also claimed to have "cured" of autism with so-called "biomedical interventions. Dr. Gordon has frequently shown up on this blog, mainly to complain piteously whenever he is criticized for being "anti-vaccine" because he not only parrots anti-vaccine pseudoscience but gives speeches to antivaccine rallies, along with Jenny McCarthy, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., Boyd Haley, and other luminaries of the antivaccine movement.
In short, Dr. Jay is a publicity hound. He probably thought that going on Penn and Teller's Bull$hit would be a good move. He obviously did not have a clue.
Let's give Dr. Jay some credit guys. Look at these *sterling* reviews from the mommies and daddies who bring their kids to his office:
"They do not deal with Insurance, I do not blame them. There prices are not cheap - I guess you get what you pay for. It is not easy to make the payments and with another baby just a few weeks away, more than just the cable needed to go! But hey, It is our choice and no one is forcing us to go here. At the end of the day we are very happy and hope to be able to see this office and everybody working here, for a very long time!"
"He is a very interesting man and is involved with nutrition and the idea of food as medicine (as in supporting the system, and prevention of illness), has knowledge regarding homeopathic support, a great understanding of allopathic medicine and supports alternative medicine,..."
"Dr. Gordon supports our parenting style (family bed, slow on the vaccine schedule, homeopathy and veganism) and he demonstrates tremendous knowledge, care, and compassion...."
"It is a concierge medicine practice, so you will have to bill your own insurance and pay out of pocket for most care. Worth it."
Who is "practicing" medicine for the money, Jay?
Who is pandering to an elite clientele, Jay?
This alleged doctor supports parents who use homeopathy? Sweet Lord. Some people will do anything for money, won't they, Mr. Gordon?
Amongst people who are prominent in the anti-vax..pardon me, *safe vaccine* community, most probably have emotional and psychological COIs that influence their positions- *however* I won't discuss those biases at all but will limit my observations to financial COIs that are rather direct.
Purely as an exercise, I scanned the list of presenters who will appear at the AutismOne Conference:
doctors who offer patient care and treatments
alt med providers( Chiropractic, Homeopathy, Nutritionists etc) who offer services
psychologists and therapists who offer services
those who provide legal representation and financial planning
people who offer supplements, foods and alt med treatments
people who have written books on autism, maintain websites
someone who had patented an alternative vaccine
Sites like Age of Autism, NVIC, EBCALA, Autism File - similarly include people who earn money because of their involvement in these activities. Some sites sell ad space and take donations. Amongst those who write at these outlets, some may imagine a future career in this area.
If I be may so bold, I might add that indeed Dr Jay's position on vaccines may add to his clientele, sell books and perhaps 'up' his fees for public speaking.
And now I have to be honest:
I counsel people and invest money for myself and advise a few people on finance ( mostly cousins).
Oh, I own some GSK and Newscorp- HOWEVER- if I sold that portion of my fund, it wouldn't be enough to pay for the last silk scarf I bought.
"You purposely pander as the pediatrician to petty performers, even proffering publicity prose to their publications.
That is so good, Chris, I can't possible top it without attempting haiku or alliteration well above my skill level!
lillady, you really just slammed me to the ground with those awful Yelp reviews! How can I possibly defend myself against comments like these??
"Dr. Gordon and his staff are beyond compare. There is no one else like him. He was MY pediatrician when I was growing up, and now he is my kids. I trust him, and so do my kids. He and his staff are worth every penny and the long drive."
"This whole practice is absolutely delightful! Everybody adds a beautiful personal touch and makes the visit a breeze! It is very unusual to see a Doctor, these days and in this city, without feeling like you are just another patient being squeezed into an already impossible schedule.... NOT here! No waiting for what feels like hours in a crowded waiting room, overhearing some unhappy discussion about insurance claims etc."
"Appointments are with him, with some help from a loving staff, and last about 1.5 hours for a check up. He is detailed, he listens to the child and to the parent and is compassionate and kind."
"When we've had an emergency (only one thank God), his staff got back to us in minutes, late on a Saturday night. Our daughter likes and trusts him, and we have a wonderful relationship with his office."
"SImply, the best doctor in LA!"
I'll just have to try harder to please those elitists. I am very embarrassed.
(Thank you, lillady!!)
I will drop the question. At times, there is a conflict of interest when I write, speak or appear. The same exists for Orac. I just wondered how he felt about it.
Now we just need sid offit in here quoting dr gordon "not quoting" young master crosby so we can have a human centipede of anti-vaccine discussion here.
Nice tap-dance, Mr. Gordon. Now try explaining away your support for the parents who quack their children with homeopathy.
more to the point, why on earth would he 'recommend' a drug that if discovered to 'kill or maim' and he knew it, the seeming litigious nature of the US would certainly result in legal action. (ie, he'd get sued - and I'm sure he is well aware of that fact). Yeah, I can see him choosing short term gain over possible long term destruction of his career, reputation and life. . . .
I have written magazine stories or appeared on TV networks...
Ooohhh, that makes you as credible as George Will. Or William F. Buckley!
Orac's job indirectly depends on money from the pharmaceutical industry. Privately and publicly, Orac will readily admit this so I find nothing wrong with pointing it out.
Well, if you point out something he said that was actually WRONG, that might be relevant WRT his credibility. Otherwise, it's just "I'm a spineless corrupt hack, therefore others must be as lame as me."
Doc Jay Gordon turns
Kids into disease vectors
Does he have no shame?
I like alliteration. You are still a pandering publicity puppet.
I am impressed: nine in one sentence. Better yet, the sentence was factual!
To be truthful, I go for assonance but frequently restrain myself.
Thank you very much, Denice.
I have written magazine stories or appeared on TV networks partially sponsored by everyone from formula manufacturers (whom I abhor) to pharmaceutical manufacturers.
Speaking as an adoptee from the post-wet-nurse era, do allow me to send the same sentiment back in your direction.
When are you going to revise your opinion of Prevnar vaccine, Dr Jay?
Take a look at the chart Dr. Jay, to see the decrease in disease incidence, since the introduction of Prevnar vaccine.
The Prevnar-7 valent vaccine was introduced in 2000; the Prevnar-13 valent vaccine was introduced in 2010...yet Jay still has this on his website:
"The Prevnar vaccine is too new for me to recommend. The number of cases of Pneumococcal ear infections which could be prevented is very small and the number of cases of meningitis prevented is also small. I have no quarrel with doctors who recommend the shot or with parents who choose to get it. I have very strong objections to advertising this immunization to the general public on television. I donât think enough information can be disseminated in 60 seconds."
-Dr. Jay Gordon, February 23, 2010
And Dr. Jay, what did your lawyer tell you about your duty to provide accurate information about each Recommended Childhood Vaccine...including the consequences of not vaccinating...once AB 2109 is implemented?
Dr. Jay brings up a scurrilious accusation against Orac -- an accusation that has been replied to at length -- and then protests that he didn't mean anything, like, bad, he was just bringing it up to see if there was any truth to it.
Does he actually think this a clever tactic?
Put another way, does he think the people who frequent this comments section are complete and total idiots?
This isn't Age of Autism, after all.
Yes, he does. He knows, given how assiduously he follows Orac*, that Crosby's garbage has been thoroughly addressed and utterly refuted. He brought it up because he thought it was a clever way to "just ask questions" and cast aspersions without seeming to do so... at least to people who aren't familiar with the players involved. Based on prior experience, he's hoping that someone will respond rudely so that he can storm off in a huff and paint the commenters here as barbarians unworthy of engagement. I wonder whether his sycophants know how passive-aggressive he is.
*I used to think that Dr. Jay only had a Google news alert or like it set up to notify him that his name had come up on this site. But that wasn't the case on this post; the first mention of his name on this post is his signature on his comment.
Sometimes incidents of a disease rise not because there are more cases going around, but because we're better at diagnosing the illness.
I wonder if Dr Jay reads AoA? I commented here Tueday about a crappy, new article there about 'Autism Barbie' that includes an army of vaccine advocates appearing as dolls and toys, one of which was Orac's "friend" & Co.
I like Todd W's idea better.
I simply love how Jay does not take insurance and then denies that he is catering to an "elite" clientele in a "boutique" pediatric practice.
Jay is also asking for contributions to defer the high costs associated with maintaining his website:
Jay *claims* that he was *just inquiring* about any COIs that Orac has by resurrecting Jake's libelous attacks. Then he states...
"I will drop the question. At times, there is a conflict of interest when I write, speak or appear. The same exists for Orac. I just wondered how he felt about it."
Cripes Jay, we *get* what your intent was...and you've just confirmed for us that you are full of yourself...and "full of it".
You're going to love this link from AoA for the "Clay Report":
Beth Clay, a Concept Doula who consults with corporate and non-profit organizations is the former Senior Professional Staff member who led the Congressional investigation that regarding epidemic rise in autism rates. (www.bethclay.com)"
What the hell is a "concept doula"?
I second your assessment. I suspect Doctor Jay has said what he wants to and won't be back again for a while.
In comment 19, he said:
It wasn't Mr. Crosby's FB page and I was not citing him as an authority on Orac, COIs or anything else.
but doesn't say what his source was. I did a search for part if the quote
he attempts to talk his way out of the points I raised in the 84-word e-mail I sent to him with a 4,562-word smokescreen
and got several sources including Jake Crosby's column from February 11 of this year, which includes a link to the same SBM blog that I linked to.
Doctor Jay may have
wondered how Dave responded to this issue back then
but apparently he didn't wonder very much because he doesn't seem to have checked out the answer.
Also, congratulations to you and Chris for at least getting a response. He mostly skipped my questions at 20 although perhaps
At times, there is a conflict of interest when I write, speak or appear.
was a partial answer.
Aw crap, I missed Todd W's idea! Was that on a thread here, or over at his site?
Thanks in advance.
Altho' I have to run:
he had *quaction figures*, plastic figures immortalising famous quacks, described and PICTURED! Hilariously, I might add; @ Harpocrates Speaks, a few months ago..on Fridays. You must look.
What the hell is a "concept doula"?
An ad hoc self-marketing term, to all appearances.
@ squirrelelite: I do *tend to* get responses from Dr. Jay, merely by quoting from his website and following his "tweets". He *surpassed* himself this time, with his reviving of Jake's libelous accusations about ORAC's non-existent COIs. He has a constant need to feed his huge ego and he will whore himself out to any magazine, any TV show or any other media outlet:
"I have written magazine stories or appeared on TV networks partially sponsored by everyone from formula manufacturers (whom I abhor) to pharmaceutical manufacturers. I have at times wondered how much of what I say I is influenced by wanting to avoid conflict with these funders."
@ madder: How could you ever miss Todd W's "Quacktion Figures"...Orac blogged about them!
@ Narad: Here is Beth Clay, "Concept Doula's" webpage. It is chock full of her *accomplishments*:
And, here are some of the "Concept Doula's" *other accomplishments*, courtesy of Left Brain/Right Brain:
According to wikipedia, a "doula" is a non-medical person assisting a woman in labour. Etymology from the Greek for "female slave", which makes for some rather unfortunate connotations.
From the context, then, a "concept doula" attends the birth of new ideas but isn't qualified to do any more than hold the hands of those doing the work and say words of encouragement. Hunh. I didn't know you could bill for that. I need to talk to my boss...
Jay is also asking for contributions to defer the high costs associated with maintaining his website
Holy crap. I know that Alexa is a very crude metric, but it doesn't look like this nickle-and-diming is to pay for bandwidth. A really cynical type might note that donations, on the other hand, do lead to salable mailing lists.
Thanks, DW-- that was awesome. Not sure how I missed those.
@ Steve: I came across "Doula David" the other day when I posted about a Placental Chocolate Truffle Recipe:
Doula David is *certified* as a "PES" (Placental Encapsulation Specialist).
Hey, if Dr. Jay can become a certified lactation specialist...
"Intensely interested in infant nutrition and breastfeeding, Dr. Gordon is the first male physician to sit for and pass the International Board of Lactation Certification Exam and has served on the Professional Advisory Board of La Leche League for twenty-four years."
Placental Chocolate Truffle!? Ewww!
Yesterday I was in the car with teenage daughter. The car in front had a sticker that said "My baby was born at home!".
She actually wondered why someone would advertise that they did not make it to the hospital (she was almost born at home, but fortunately there is no traffic at 4am on Sundays). I had to explain to her that the sticker indicated that the drive was a Mompetitor. She was amused.
@ Chris...Mommy competitors, eh? Her doula delivered her baby by C-Section at home...and she continued to nurse her baby in spite of *an unfortunate injury*.
That's a keeper site...I've bookmarked it. I've already savored the Thanksgiving letter, the **AFP Grandparents Wedding Toast** and the naked couple with the cats (the comments under their picture are a riot).
Oh dear . . . I'll have to watch that when I get home. :-D
There have been successful c-sections at home, with the most remarkable one I've heard of being a *self* c-section. Mom was neither a first-timer nor opposed to hospitals, but she lived in a remote part of (IIRC) Mexico, and babies don't always come when it's convenient. She realized that the labor was obstructed, asked her oldest daughter to go fetch the village nurse (which would take a while), sterilized some sharp kitchen knives in a flame, washed her belly, drank some liquor for a pretense at pain control, and then *cut herself open*. She opened her abdomen, opened her uterus, and delivered the baby before the nurse arrived. The nurse checked her out, stitched the abdomen shut with sewing thread that the mom had on hand, and then got her and the baby transported to a hospital for a proper reconstructive surgery. This took quite a while, as there were no vehicles in town, so they had to wait for one to arrive. Mother and child survived, but might not have otherwise.
That's obviously an extreme case, though. ;-) Right up there with the surgeon who did his own appendectomy at the South Pole (though at least he had the benefit of a spinal block).
@ Calli Arcale:
Apparently, you are correct about the woman in Mexico who delivered her infant by C-Section; both survived.
You should know by now,that for many of the more hardcore antivax people every autistic adult is an embarassment.Especially if they are over the age of twenty five or so.Every such adult is just one more nail in the coffin for the notion of a vaccine caused "epidemic".Which is why you will never hear AoA and the rest calling for an accurate count of just how many autistic adults there are out there.
An autistic adult whose autism is caused or related to metabolic disease?Fugettabout it.We don't exist.
Someone needs to post a list again,of just how many prominent antivax people stuck their autistic kids in group homes when they turned eighteen or twenty one.Many of which are little better than the bad old institutions they replaced.
@ Roger Kulp: I don't think that one can *generalize* about alternative living arrangements for disabled children/adults.
You have been posting here regularly and you are aware that there are degrees of impairment. You are also aware that some children have multiple disabilities, including severe and profound intellectual impairments, physical impairments, medical issues and other health impairments that require 24/7 around-the-clock care from their parents. My son had profound mental retardation, cerebral palsy, partially controlled grand mal seizure disorder, with pancytopenia which necessitated extended acute care in hospitals for illnesses and internal bleeds. He also had autistic-like behaviors.
I worked very hard with the State and a private not-for-profit child care agency to develop a residential program nearby, with around-the-clock nursing care and 1:2 staff/client ratios, so that he had a safe nurturing home-like residential home. He left my home at age nine and resided there for 19 years, until his natural death in his sleep at age 28, June, 2004.
You know, don't you Roger, that the more impaired a child is, the more intensive services that the child will require?
I'm not in any way, trying to minimize the needs of kids and young adults who are in need of special therapies within the school system, assistance for job placement and alternative living situations, once they leave the family home. Please don't stereotype parents who seek group home placement for their children who have extraordinary needs.
And Roger, you are not aware about the really great programs that provide residential services for children and adults, which are humane, home-like and non-institutional..."Right at home, right in the neighborhood".