Well, April is over, which means that Autism Awareness Month is almost over. While antivaccinationists are saying goodbye to April and whining about the very concept of "autism awareness," I can't help but realize that the autism quackfest known as AutismOne is less than a month away. Yes, every year around Memorial Day weekend, the glitterati of the autism quackery and antivaccine world descend upon an airport near Chicago's O'Hare airport (what a drag, given that it can take an hour to get to downtown from there at rush hour) in order to spin conspiracy theories about big pharma and the government, learn about the latest quackery (or simply regurgitate long-existing quackery), and in general think of new ways to subject autistic children to the risk of being unprotected against vaccine-preventable diseases and subjecting them to whatever the quackery de l'année is. (Last year, it was bleach enemas, promoted by a woman named Kerri Rivera. Remembering last year's quackfest as one of the quackiest that I can recall, I thought I'd take a look at what sort of quackery we can expect in the 2013 AutismOne quackfest.
Before I get to that, I can't help but point out something that totally cracked me up. I rather suspect it will make you crack up too. Just take a gander at this session, Challenging the Consensus Through Effective Advocacy. Now take a look at who's giving the talk. That's right. I kid you not (and apparently the organizers of AutismOne aren't kidding either). It's Jake Crosby, and here's a description of what he's going to talk about:
This talk will answer questions about how you can become a more effective advocate. Discussions will range from tips and tricks for challenging people publicly at their own venues to tracking down the connections of those who defend the vaccine lobby but don't disclose their ties. Effective narratives for countering the vaccine lobby's talking points will also be explored.
Apparently Jake's going to talk about how he stalks various scientists and skeptical bloggers like myself, making a pest of himself, trying to get a reaction and then blog a one-sided version of the goings-on. Then he's going to talk about doing hilarious "six-degrees-of-separation" conspiracy mongering posts in which he spins any connection, no matter how tenuous, into an irretrievable conflict of interest. Quite honestly, I couldn't stop laughing when I saw this.
Now that that's out of the way, let's take a look. It's hard not to notice immediately who the keynote speakers are. There's model turned comedienne turned antivaccine "warrior mother," Jenny McCarthy, of course. No surprise there. She's done the keynote for this particular quackfest every year of its existence, as far as I can tell. Then there's Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Now there's a blast from the past. Long time readers of this blog might remember that I first made a name for myself in the skeptical and science-based blogosphere when I first deconstructed an awful antivaccine article by RFK, Jr. way, way, way back in 2005. It makes me feel old just thinking about it. I mean, over eight years in the blogsophere is ancient. Apparently in 2013, he's going to talk about Chronicling the Dangers and Exposing the Cover Up:
Has been involved in the fight to hold government health agencies responsible for the vaccine-induced autism epidemic. Kennedy's article Deadly Immunity chronicled the cover up by the CDC and FDA blasting the agencies for putting politics before science. He comes to the conference with a new book that further exposes the dangers of thimerosal and ongoing corruption of the CDC.
Oh, goody. I wonder if I can get a review copy. I hadn't realized that RFK, Jr. was coming out with a book this year and that he was going to exhume the rotting corpse of thimerosal antivaccine pseudoscience.
After the keynote speech by RFK, Jr., the quackery comes fast and furious. For instance, Kerry Rivera, the woman who advocates subjecting autistic children to bleach enemas, will be back for an encore performance, and apparently she's doubling down on the bleach quackery:
What are the scientifically validated underlying causes of autism that suggest efficacy of chlorine dioxide, and what is the protocol that has helped 86 children to recovery? Underlying medical conditions are implicated in autism--infections, allergies, inflammation, etc. Chlorine dioxide combined with the other steps of the protocol has helped thousands of children in over 40 countries overcome many of these conditions.
So, a year later, Rivera has learned nothing. (I was half tempted to say, "You know nothing, Kerri Rivera," but I'm not female, red-headed, or pretty, although I am definitely a Game of Thrones addict.) She's still advocating feeding autistic children bleach, and I bet she's still advocating bleach enemas as well. There is a bit of good news there. It turns out that in 2013 Rivera will graduate to become a homeopath. I can't help but hope that she sticks to homeopathy. AT least giving out magic water won't cause the damage that making autistic children drink bleach and or shoot it up their rectums has the potential to do.
Speaking of homeopathy, there's lots of homeopathy at the quackfest. For example, there are three talks or roundtables on homeopathy: Sequential Homeopathy + Biomedical Science = Houston Homeopathy Method for Autism by two homeopaths from—you guessed it!—the Homeopathy Center of Houston; the Homeopathy Center of Houston Parent Roundtable; and Restoring Gut Integrity After Iatrogenic Enterocolitis: Regeneration Using Silver Hydrosol, Homeopathy, Probiotics by Robert Scott Bell.
Egads! If it's not bleach, then it's colloidal silver. That's what Silver Hydrosol is! Of course, if bleach enemas, homeopathy, and colloidal silver aren't enough for you, you can always try to treat autism with camel's milk.
Then there's Brian Hooker, who will apparently repeat his nonsense to an adoring audience ready to eat it up in More Lies of the CDC Regarding the Relationship between Vaccines and Autism. One can only hope he will be as hilarious in person as he is in print attacking science. Meanwhile Mayer Eisenstein will be promoting his same, tired, old antivaccine schtick, in which he tries to teach parents how to get out of the various school vaccine mandates. In fact, there's a whole program about legal issues in autism and autism quackery, particularly getting vaccine exemptions, which is, of course, a special obsession with the antivaccine movement. If there's one thing they hate, it's school vaccine mandates.
If that's not enough, the "Conspiracy Realist" Liam Scheff will tell attendees what he thinks are the The Myths of Modern Science and Medicine:
What's wrong with science today? Investigator Liam Scheff takes apart the hidden history of medicine to reveal what's hidden beneath centuries of propaganda. "Are vaccines really safe?" is a question too many people have had to answer in the most painful way - but it's only a small part of the wide-reaching medical problem, revealed in this lecture.
I must admit that, after perusing Scheff's website, I find it to be what you might call a "target-rich" environment. I mean, just check out his section on evolution, particularly his piece on How Life Came to Be. Let me tell you, I might have to revisit Liam Scheff sometime. Pure entertainment for skeptics, like a chew toy for a dog. Oh, and he's a 9/11 Truther too. He'll definitely fit right in at AutismOne.
Yes, it looks as though AutismOne will in 2013 will be every bit the quackfest that it's always been, complete with book signings from a bunch of antivaccinationists pushing a book, including Louise Kuo Habakus, Kerry Rivera, and Robert Melillo, among others.
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Ha! I'll take your eleven and raise you another 30. Of course, I can't tell you where, but you can probably figure it out if you know me like I know you know I know me.
@ Todd W. Link fail. Here, the link to the 3 confirmed and 11 suspect cases of mumps in Boston:
http://www.bphc.org/programs/infectiousdisease/Forms%20%20Documents/Mum…
If and when the mumps outbreak investigation is published in the MMWR...I'm betting that the index case contracted the virus during travel to a mumps-endemic country.
I'm crying Foul! Some of us are privy to inside information !!!!
Cookie, please.
I will say what Ren won't. This was the tip of the iceberg:
h_ttp://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2013/03/14/12-suspected-cases-of-mumps-found-at-loyola-university-maryland/
Like anyone who gives a hoot about you will read this far down into the comments, Ren.
Sorry about the link fail, and thanks, lilady, for providing the correct link.
Narad: That seems a bit strong. Out of her depth, perhaps (including the MMR screwup), but the earlier WSJ piece doesn’t exactly scream “full anti-vax.”
I think you're being waaay too generous. Being anti-mmr is pretty much the gateway drug into the anti-vax movement, and Dr. Grandin has certainly learned enough of the lingo to blend in. It'd be unfortunate if she became another Jake- it'd be worse, since she has demonstrated competency at life, and he hasn't.
There's a mumps outbreak in South Wales too.
@Krebiozen - of course, this is exactly what the anti-vaccine groups want....yet they still complain.
Well, aside from the part where she seems to be confusing MMR with DTaP or something.
I am just sick reading some of these comments. What do ANY of you know? How many of you watched a child regress into autism after shots? It's easy to denigrate what you know nothing about, calling people nutjobs and quacks. It's one thing to disagree, it's complete ignorance to put down and call names because you don't understand, know, or have to pump yourself and your self righteous bullshit with being complete assholes.
Dawn,
I am autistic since day one and have been assessed before I got my first vaccine so your point is?
Alain
Dawn: It’s one thing to disagree, it’s complete ignorance to put down and call names because you don’t understand, know, or have to pump yourself and your self righteous bullshit with being complete assholes.
Ma'am, you and your friends are responsible for at LEAST two epidemics and one death that I know of. Some people here are autistic, some have autistic children. I have neither, but I learn a lot from people like lilady, Alain, lizditz and autismom, among others.
It's typical that you bang on in to a civil debate, and accuse us of being 'assholes.' Your group is always on the attack because deep-down, you know you're in the wrong. You despise your children because they are not perfect, and refuse to acknowledge that they are human too. Tell me, Dawn, how many 'cures' have you subjected your child to? Do you tend to their care, provide therapy, or have you given up on them? Do you enjoy hearing that other people's children have died from mumps or measles? Would you love a child deafened from mumps? Or would you simply abandon them?
@dawn
Stay classy, troll, stay classy.
it’s complete ignorance to put down and call names [...] your self righteous bullshit with being complete assholes.
Pot, meet kettle... but I see you're already acquainted.
Check out the *classy* remarks from the posters at AoA in reply to Dachel's latest rant:
http://www.ageofautism.com/2013/05/columbia-journalism-review-casts-eye…
And, the Dachel bot has sent her flying monkey squad to this blog: http://www.cjr.org/feature/sticking_with_the_truth.php
Scroll down to the last few comments to see some of the comments in reply to Anne's buddies' comments.
#512 Typically we don't call the *parents* nutjobs and quacks, if you'll notice. Those names are reserved for the baloney purveyors who deliberately deceive the parents into costly, disproven alt-med treatments that are fraudulent to the core.
Generally we feel sorry for the parents, provided they're not paying the woo forward in some sort of cruel pyramid scheme.
It's actually much easier to deceive someone than people sometimes realize, and in my opinion it does *not* mean the deceived person is stupid, nor gullible, nor ignorant. It can happen to the smartest people, and all it takes, really, is one moment of unwariness and the susceptibility induced by hope--a combination of factors one is likely to have when faced with something unforeseen.
Thinking "it couldn't happen to me" or "I'm way too smart for that" is a recipe for disaster, because that's usually exactly when a person is most susceptible.
http://www.followingvaccinations.com/
"Sophia Agnew Sophia was perfect up till 13 months - met all milestones and was perfect in every way. At 13 months she developed a small cellulitis rash on her forehead and was given a week of intravenous antibiotics, then had the MMR jab a month later. Straight away she lost eye contact lost her words and became like a zombie - would not engage with anyone, had chronic diarrhoea for 8 months, stimming, spinning, toe walking, screaming, not sleeping, terrified of going anywhere. The whole thing is disgusting and akin to murdering our child and I will do anything to get justice for this."
Ok Orac's group,
The preceding was an excerpt taken from following vaccines.com. It's a list compiled by a parent of a vaccine injured child with other parents --now over 1600-- worldwide sharing similar stories of how their child was injured after vaccines. Now I am using this aid to see if any progress can be make in your vaccines causing autism denialism obsessive disorder or VCADOD. Who would like to take the very first important step and admit he/she has a problem?.....
....No one? Well, I want to remind you that we are all friends. You won't be judged. Admitting to your problem is the first very important step towards recovery. Now won't you come forward, state your name and admit to your VCADOD?.....
.......Still no one? I know how difficult this must be for all of you. It's best that you don't feel too pressured. We will try again later to see if any progress can be made with your VCADOD and it's associated YFS (you're full of shyte) symptoms.
Greg,
It has been pointed out to you that Michelled Cedillo's parents insisted that she became autistic straight after receiving the MMR, yet when video footage of her from before she received the MMR was shown at court, experts were able to point out clear examples of autistic behaviours. So, sorry, but I'm not convinced.
@ Greg
I strongly belive you are a shape-shifting, baby eating lizard. I can't provide you with any back up for my belief, but it is obvious that I am right. Anyone with any capacity for rational thought will agree with me, your reptillian provenience is just so far beyond doubt.
Oh, and please - do not bother writing anything about how I am wrong. Actually, please do write about how you are NOT a lizardfolk bent on devouring human offspring. Once you try to disprove that, we'll all KNOW that I am right, since denial of this charge will be obvious lie, only proving me right.
So, I dare you, say anything about my strong belief. Or say nothing at all, if you keep silent and ingore my accusation we'll have all the proof we need - you didn't defend yourself, thus you'll admit your true reptillian nature.
Ball is in your court now Greg - will you admit that you are a baby eater lizard or will you lie about not being one?
@The Smith of Lie,
You personally believe vaccines cause autism and didn't vaccinate your kid(s) did you? Brother it's ok! SSshhh, your secrets are will tucked away with me. No one has to know.
@The Smith of a Lie - I love you!
@Greg
I told you what I belive. I belive that you eat all those autistic people you claim to work with. And you did nothing to convince me otherwise.
Also, discussing any of my potential beliefs about vaccines has about as much point as discussing them with Invisible Pink Unicorn that lives in you head, so why don't we adress more important point, id est you bein a repulsive reptile killing and eating babies? How can you defend the atrocities you commit? Why won't you stop doing those terrible, terrible things?
So I go away for a couple of weeks (not like I ever post anyways) and find this thread. And catch up this morning, and see that Greg is still going strong. You're persistent, I have to admit. You're completely wrong, but you certainly seem to believe what you say. Though you could probably do better than cut and pasting the same AoA talking points I've seen hundreds of times.
My daughter is fully vaccinated. I've got her records to prove it, if you like. When we went in for her 1 yo checkup and vaccines, I talked to her pediatrician about people who think vaccines cause autism. He laughed. It's sad how many people believe your talking points, believe AoA, and are going to cause real problems in the future.
Not many people alive today had to see what measles really did. My mom's told me stories about what she went through when she had measles as a kid. I certainly don't want to see anyone go through that. Not many people alive today have seen people left sterile due to mumps. Or birth defects caused by congenital rubella. Or all kinds of things we can stop with vaccines nowadays. You seem to want that to return. Why?
I'm bored with Greg's infantile taunts. But I'm glad that only a tiny minority of people take his deluded rants seriously. No one who makes any decisions about public health believes what you are saying Greg, you are the one who needs to face the facts.
@Krebiozen - I also believe that Greg is actually part of the "conspiracy" to silence & marginalize the anti-vax movement - I mean, he's doing such a wonderful job making anti-vax heads look like complete nutters & irrelevant to any rational discussion that he's got to be in the pay of "Big Pharma."
(sarcasm off)
I know that to date no one has identified any actual evidence supporting the existence of a causal association between routine childhood immunizations and the development of autism spectrum disorders. If you believe otherwise, by all means share such evidence with us.
But be aware that it’s actual evidence that you’re being asked for.
Got any?
A large list of anecdotal accounts, with parents blaming immunization for their child's developmental disorders solely on the basis of temporal proximity--did you have a point? Are you confusing anecdote with evidence again, greg?
I'll ask you the same question I asked Dawn: do you have any actual evidence supporting the existence of a causal association between immunization and the development of autism spectrum disorders?
The Troll now links to Joan Campbell/Red Rock Cloud's website.
This is the same Joan Campbell who is associated with Wakefield and who revised that website, when I called her out about it, weeks ago.
She couldn't change the "Google" listing though
"Disclaimer - Redrockcloud
www.followingvaccinations.com/disclaimer
Joan Campbell, Yellowriver and RedRock are not responsible for any ... In no event will Joan Campbell, Yellowriver or RedRock be liable for any injury, loss or ..."
Got to get me one of those--let's you sell any service you want without any expectation you'll deliver actual results.
The finance industry would leap right on board (and maybe already has?) "The financial records provided are provided for educational and informational purposes only..."
Hey Andrew,
Thx, for appreciating the effort that goes into being a 'troll'. Actually, I am not here all the time and take breaks touring other sites and arguing with other vaccine pushers. Also, tell your mom that although things are a little different today there is still the comparable horror of autism: The head banging, screaming, poop smearing.....parents not knowing when they will have to file for bankruptcy caring for their autistic children, or which group home will be abusing their children when they are dead. Real nasty stuff, Andrew. Real nasty stuff. Hey, tell your mom also that things may not have completely changed with the Massachusetts measles outbreak. Not only do kids get autism from vaccines, but they may also stand a chance of getting IFDs. Vaccines: The gift that doesn't stop giving!
My mom knows all about raising a kid with ASD, Greg. She raised me. I somehow ended up on the spectrum growing up with the vaccine schedule of the late 1970s. Must've been a fluke.
Guess I also got lucky that my daughter wasn't infected with autism from her vaccines either, since apparently you seem to think it's a near 100% chance. Though she hasn't had her final MMR and varicella boosters. Those come next year before she enters Kindergarten. So there's still a chance!
You have to date failed to offer any evidence supporting this claim. So one more time:
What in your opinion is the single most compelling piece of evidence supporting the existence of a causal association between routine childhood immunization and what you're now referring to as "real nasty stuff" (i.e., development of austim spectrum disorders)?
And again, the request is for evidence--not anecdote, not handwaving what-els-could-it-be arguments, not personal claims that "it was the evil vaccines!" by parents lamenting a perceived 'loss of their real child', etc.
We get that you believe what you believe, without any need for evidence in its support , but what can you offer the rest of us to convince us that you're correct in that belief?
@JGC, I will answer you shortly on the matter of evidence supporting my claim that vaccines cause autism. I promise.
@krebiozen,
"Infantile taunts...."
C'mon man, give me some credit. Infants don't even know how to type never mind taunting. Juvenile taunts, maybe. Hee, hee, hee!!
I'm not going to hold my breath.......
(translation)
I'll get back to you if I can find something y'all haven't already poked holes in.
(/translation)
Greg:
Any chance you will answer the one I asked over two weeks ago? Where is that PubMed indexed from a qualified researcher showing that a vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more seizures than the disease?
Here is some reading material to help you: Genetics and the myth of vaccine encephalopathy.
As always, the 'check's in the mail'...
Interestingly enough, anti-vax folks ignore the fact that Rubella / CRS has been linked to the onset of autism.....which means that the MMR can be definitively cited as a source of "autism prevention."
You might want to throw in some "haws" to really convey the full flavor of the gig.
@Narad - what about a "maniacal laugh" as well?
@JGC,
I prefer not to bet bogged down in a debate about whether vaccines cause autism. Frankly, I find it rather silly and compare it to a debate about whether water flows upwards and not downwards. The person you are debating who says it flows upwards not downwards may 'suprisingly' give good arguments, but he will never be able to provide the ultimate scientific proof that invalidates the self-evident fact that water flows downwards. I will credit you guys and say that at times you debate well and 'appear' to provide good arguments that vaccines do not cause autism. I say 'appear' because I am just a layperson, and another expert might not be so impressed with your arguments. Perhaps that expert may also have good counter arguments of his own. Still, as well as all the other circumstantial evidence, the countless parents who report how their kids were destroyed after vaccines put the notion of vaccines causing autism as approaching a self-evident truth. Hearing the parents stories, you have two choices: One, you can say they are all lying, or two, you must concede that vaccines are responsible for their children's autism. The first option that they are lying is not a reasonable option to me and I suspect it's not a reasonable one for you too. Further, you will never be able to provide the ultimate scientific proof that vaccines do not cause autism with an unvaxed/vaxed study, or a study of unvaxed populations showing a 1 in 50 autism rate. I know this, and you know this. Again, I repeat for emphasis: You will never be able to provide the scientific proof that vaccines do not cause autism, and water flows upwards. JGC, I am anticipating that my arguments will not sit well with you and I am expecting an intensed rebuttal. Still, until you provide the ultimate scientific proof in the aforementioned studies that vaccines do not cause autism, I will always treat your rebuttal with Shakespeare's, 'words, words, words'. In conclusion, JGC, the ball is in your court until you provide the studies. In fact, the ball truly never left your court.
(I did not have the benefit of spell-check on this computer so ignore all my possible typos)
@Alain,
Alain a while back you said something that I have been thinking about. You said vaccines and autism is a complex thing with no simple answer. What did you mean by that?
the countless parents who report how their kids were destroyed after vaccines put the notion of vaccines causing autism as approaching a self-evident truth.
Other things "approaching a self-evident truth," according to Greg:
1. UFOs / Abductions
2. Bigfoot
3. Chemtrails
...
Shall I go on? "Countless" people believe in these things too, Greg!
You will never be able to provide the scientific proof that invisible unicorns have not taken over North America. Shouldn't the burden of proof be on those who make the claim in the first place?
Nobody here is saying that those parents are lying. Lying would mean that they're telling deliberate mistruths. However, I do believe they either missed, or chose to ignore, certain behaviors in their child that may have indicated the possible presence of an ASD, as shown in the reference to Michelle Cedillo above.
You cannot make a claim and lay the burden on your opponent to disprove your claim. Things don't work that way. It's been explained numerous times why a scientific vaxed versus unvaxed study would be wildly inappropriate. The rise in ASDs has been explained several times (and the "1 in 50" number isn't exactly accurate anyways).
So what evidence do you have of a vaccine --> autism connection, keeping in mind that data is not the plural form of anecdote?
Andrew S: Not many people alive today had to see what measles really did. My mom’s told me stories about what she went through when she had measles as a kid. I certainly don’t want to see anyone go through that.
My dad missed most of a school year due to measles and mumps. Mom probably had measles too, but hers wasn't as memorable. I grew up on horror stories of that, and I also read Alcott and Laura Ingalls Wilder as a kid. Why anyone would want to skip the MMR after reading Wilder or Eight Cousins escapes me. (Mac, one of the cousins of the main characters in Eight Cousins, was nearly blinded after a bout of measles and was forbidden to read for a while. At nine, I couldn't imagine a worse fate.)
Greg, you still haven't answered my question: if a child of yours became disabled from measles, mumps or rubella, would you still love them? Would you think they still had potential?
"Greg
May 16, 2013
@JGC, I will answer you shortly on the matter of evidence supporting my claim that vaccines cause autism. I promise.
@krebiozen,
“Infantile taunts….”
C’mon man, give me some credit. Infants don’t even know how to type never mind taunting. Juvenile taunts, maybe. Hee, hee, hee!!"
To take one out of Greg's playbook - "liar, liar, pants on fire!"
Actually, Greg once again shows himself to be the "Catholic Church railing against Galileo" because it is "self-evident" that the Sun & the stars revolve around the Earth - therefore the Earth is the center of the Universe...and none of your so-called "Science" can prove to me otherwise....
Greg, you are in fact incredibly moronic and stupid - not to mention incredibly bigoted towards those with disabilities.
Oh, no, it's trying the frottage "tactic" again.
I may only take this as an explicit admission that you are unable to offer a single compelling piece of actual evidence that a causal link exists between vaccination and autism. Not surprising, therefore, you prefer not to get ‘bogged down in’ (i.e., lose utterly) a debate that this is the case and simply fall back on assertions “It’s self-evident, innit? I mean it’s so self -evident I can barely believe it myself. I really can’t understand why no one else agrees and demands inconsequentials like anything resembling support.”
Be clear however, that in your analogy you’re the one taking the position that water flows upwards against gravity—i.e., making claims that are entirely without support and counter to the existing body of actual evidence.
Re the parents of autistic children, you’re offering a false dichotomy and ignoring the third very real possibility: that despite the fact that vaccinesdidn’t cause their chidlren’s autism they are mistaken in their belief that it did—just as you are.
“Further, you will never be able to provide the ultimate scientific proof that vaccines do not cause autism with an unvaxed/vaxed study, or a study of unvaxed populations showing a 1 in 50 autism rate. I know this, and you know this.”
There are studies comparing vaxed versus unvaxed populations (retrospective epidemiologic ones, rather than the unethical prospective studies you for no reason insist are essential) which find no significant difference in autism incidence in those populations.
As for your arguments not sitting well with me, I don’t see that you have actually made one.
@JGC - because Greg takes his marching orders from Father Blaxill, Reverand Stone and Cardinal Olmsted. How could a "layperson" expect to understand something as complicated as Science when it is so easy to let the Holy Anti-Bax church interpret it for him?
Excuse my typos above
Oh man, I could get on a roll here.
Holy Mother Daschel
The Holy Martyr Wakefield
His Messenger Crosby
Anyone else?
@Lawrence:
"Oh man, I could get on a roll here.
Holy Mother Daschel
The Holy Martyr Wakefield
His Messenger Crosby
Anyone else?"
How about Maureen Meleck, CIA Parker and Ottoschnaut, Lawrence?
I'll be offline for a few hours...and I'm leaving the posts in your capable hands. :-)
http://www.cjr.org/feature/sticking_with_the_truth.php
Lawrence:
there are obviously apostles, evangelists and saints.
-bt- TMR actually has a 'Saint", "Rev" and "Goddess".
@ Lawrence: Pssst...if drive-by poster Richard Gale comes back to post at the Columbia Journalism Blog....he's a "colleague" of *Dr. Gary Null*:
http://www.whale.to/vaccines/vax_autism_q.html
@ lilady:
I was about to inform you of that. He is one of the inner circle and the person who brought up Orac et al a while back.
Back to AoA hagiography:
Who's pope and Archbishop of Canterbury?
Oh, no, it’s trying the frottage “tactic” again.
Please explain, I don't want to be taken advantage.
Alain
Alain, you're fine. However, Greggy thinks you're "brain damaged" and apparently reckons that this will allow himself to hump you in some fashion.
@ Narad,
In that case, I'd suggest he go hump a camel :)
Alain
Lawrence, Denise and lilady: Jake Crosby as Judas Iscariot?
Needs more Theosophical whimsicality.
Words, words, words...
@ Christine ( the public servant Christine):
Jake can only be Judas if Blaxsted is the Lord: if AJW, the Martyr, is instead, the analogy doesn't hold, as JC is faithful to Andy so he'd be the Beloved Disciple of suchlike.
However, with all of those "writers", we definitely have the evangelists. We need a Doubting Thomas but I doubt that any exist at that cult-haven.
We all know who Satan is.
-btw-I have to lie down, this makes me tired. I'm much quicker with pagan pantheons.
Politicalgueneapig asks,
"Greg, you still haven’t answered my question: if a child of yours became disabled from measles, mumps or rubella, would you still love them? Would you think they still had potential?"
I am tempted to rephrase your question as,
'So what if vaccines cause autism, should a parent not love their child and feel they still have potential?'
Politicalgueneapig, although I do not presume to be the spokesperson for parents of vaccine damaged kids, I believe as any parent they do love their children. They love their children regardless of their children having autism. This love, however, does not preclude them from feeling extremely angry and disappointed that their children were stolen from them by vaccines. Now, had their children come down with an IFD and become disabled it would be an easier thing to bear being that the cause was accidental. That their children were injured by vaccines by the parents uninformed consent and knowingly instigated by the medical establishment, then that's just plain treacherous and criminal.
Yes, they don't seem to be your stong suit.
Greg:
Please post the PubMed indexed study from a qualified researcher that a vaccine on the American pediatric schedule "steals children."
Once again you've described autistic children as vaccine damaged, despite being unable to support the validity of such a claim. Are you hoping sheer repetition will serve in lieu of evidence?
#542 "Hearing the parents stories, you have two choices: One, you can say they are all lying, or two, you must concede that vaccines are responsible for their children’s autism."
Or three, they are mistaken, not malicious.
They are mistaken.
Greg: I believe as any parent they do love their children. They love their children regardless of their children having autism. This love, however, does not preclude them from feeling extremely angry and disappointed that their children were stolen from them by vaccines.
Sorry, but I just can't believe that. One of the ideals of family life is 'unconditional love.' Not "My child was taken by the fairies' or 'changed by vaccines.' Parents are also not supposed to make children suffer- making a child undergo unneccesary procedures like chelation, enemas, etc. undermines the trust of the family unit. Not to mention the glee a lot of your ilk experience during epidemics..I find it odd that you and your friends want other people's children to catch life-threatening diseases. And yet your friends say *we're* the nasty ones? Also, it's 'guineapig.' Spellcheck is your friend.
Khani: I'd say most of them are both.
PGP: You beat me to it with your last comment. I would also add the spreading of mis-information about vaccine-preventable diseases (eg "the marvellous measles" thing) is also rather nasty.
@Christine - how about hosting a "pox" party where one of the children who becomes infected suffers from one of the well-known and documented serious side-effects of the disease....who is at fault then?
the Holy Anti-Bax church
I will not hear a word against Martin Bax.
@PCG,
For educated people, you guys are so incredible dense. I know it is deliberate but it doesn't stop it from being real frustrating. What -- do you want the parents to send a thank you letter to pharma for making their kids autistic so they can enjoy the entertainment of kids that scream, head bang, and smear poop over their bathroom walls? How about also thanking pharma for helping them attain a more humble life when they are reduced to poverty caring for their children? Other than working with autistics, my kids are neurotypical and autism does not affect me to the degree it affects parents with autistic children. I would be so easy for me to dismiss the whole autism debate as bullocks and conclude that vaccines do not cause autism. I could blame Wakefield for stirring up the mess and curse the 'quack' parents for wanting to blame someone or something for their misfortunes. I could do all these things but not in good conscience. Vaccines cause autism and there are no ways around it. I wish it didn't, but it does. I wish future parents could vaccinate their kids against IFDs and not worry about autism, but they can't. In the US on a daily base over 200 hundred such families who vaccinated their kids, will have their kids subsequently come down with autism from the vaccines, and essentially amounting to a life sentence for these families. Truly, I wish the benefits of vaccines outweigh the risks but they don't. You guys can dance all you want but your dance will never change this reality. And in the end, we are all paying big time for this reality and things are only going to get a lot worse.
@ Greg
Yes, let's ignore the basis for the whole discussion.
Like:
"but it's a geyser! You just have to look!"
You seem quite adept at mirroring arguments, so let me try, too:
Hearing the conclusions from the numerous scientists who studied it, you have two choices:
One, you can say they are all lying, or two, you must concede that vaccines are not responsible for these children’s autism.
@ JGC
Circumstantial evidence seems to indicate so.
I honestly can't help thinking Greg must be trolling. "Come down with autism"? How ridiculous that sounds.
I could show Greg many other humans who rock, head bang, poop smear...and they aren't autistic. Greg obviously believes that autism has 1 face, and only the most severely affected are autistic, and they never improve.
In fact, I'd love to introduce Greg to my cousin. She has 3 children, all of whom were "normal" (whatever normal is) at birth and as young children, then 2 of the three slowly regressed into mental retardation, and have many autistic behaviorisms. They were fully vaccinated. They also had, it was found later a genetic disorder that is recessive and starts showing around 3-5. If she'd bought into the vaccines nonsense, my cousin would be miserable. Instead, as an intelligent woman, she accepted the genetic problem, adores and cares for her children, and lives life the best she can. Yes, there are financial, physical and psychological stresses for her and her family. But unlike the Warrior Moms, she accepts her life and goes on happily, caring for her children, making sure they are fully vaccinated, and planning for the future.
Says the guy whose comment is laden with grammatical errors (yes, I'm a Grammar Nazi).
Greg, like we keep asking you, SHOW US THE EVIDENCE THAT VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM. You haven't. All you've done is Argument by Assertion - stating something as if it were fact when it's not.
Finally, and in regards to these comments:
F. O. and die in a fire.
"incredibly dense...'
Yes, thanks for the correction Julian -- you are indeed a grammar police. Also, your 'die in a fire' commands are becoming a little repetitive.
As are your:
a) insistence that vaccines cause autism;
b) repeated labelling of us as brain damaged, and;
c) failure to stump up the evidence to support your case, despite repeated requests to do so.
I second Julian's comment - especially given that Greg hasn't been honest since the beginning......and his ready admission that he is "incapable" of understanding most of our arguments / the scientific evidence (outside of what is "explained" to him via AoA) - he's a hopeless case.
Go back to pray to your gods Blaxill, Olmsted & Dashel, I'm sure they'll keep spoon feeding you the party line and keep explaining all that "hard Sciency stuff that you are incapable of evaluating."
And the evidence that 'pharma' is making their kids autistic so they can enjoy they can enjoy the entertainment of etc., etc. would be?
Oh--that's right. You don't have any.
It's like a lot of things I see on the internet, JG. In short, "Feels are more important than reals". Don't show me any evidence; I FEEL that this is true, so that makes it true, no matter what you say. And I will defend my position for as long as it takes.
One thing the "big pharma conspiracy" people miss is that there's not a lot of money in vaccines. There is, however, a lot of money in treating disease. If this was a big pharma conspiracy, wouldn't they want to do away with vaccines so they can make money from treating the resultant diseases?
Greg:
Provide the PubMed indexed article by a qualified researcher that shows that correlation. Or stop trolling.
It is has been three weeks since I asked you to provide the PubMed indexed study by a qualified researcher that shows a vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more seizures than the disease. Why do you refuse to answer that question with real data?
Ableist bigot troll is still derping away here, I see. If he really does work with autistics as he claims, he'd do everyone a favour by choosing another career path. He clearly has nothing positive to offer the developmentally disabled.
Greg is just trolling - he doesn't actually believe the garbage he is spouting. How many parents have seen their children "regress into autism" after watching Sesame Street? Or maybe it's maternal broccoli consumption. Or DVDs. Or because they took the lead out of gasoline. Correlation and causation are very different things. Even Greg must surely understand that.
Greg: For educated people, you guys are so incredible dense. I know it is deliberate but it doesn’t stop it from being real frustrating. What — do you want the parents to send a thank you letter to pharma for making their kids autistic so they can enjoy the entertainment of kids that scream, head bang, and smear poop over their bathroom walls?
Look in the mirror before you accuse us of being dense. I don't expect the parents to send a "thank you letter" to the boogeyman of the moment, I just think they should learn to cope. Autism isn't perpetual developmental stasis; parents can learn to eliminate triggers and kids can be taught to stop unacceptable behaviors. I mean, my first thought if I saw a hypothtical kid banging their head would be to try and figure out what the kid is reacting to. Finally, it's PGP, I think you're mixing me up with JGC.
Christine: Thank you. I was doing pretty well for someone who was half-asleep at the time.
Greg: "you are indeed a grammar police."
The irony may not burn, but it definitely singes. :)
@ Krebiozen:
Not only are correlation and causation different, there isn't even correlation. In the statistical sense, at least. "These two things happened to occur around the same time" is just coincidence. If there WERE an actual correlation, there'd be something to look into.
just look at the graph. it's self-evident, innit?
http://kfolta.blogspot.com/2013/02/organic-food-causes-autism.html
*hypothetical*
@ Beamup:
Perhaps it's synhronicity. The woos love that concept.
@ JGC:
Maybe autism's "rise" is multifactorial:
organic foods + internet use + cell phone towers + alternate energy sources...
Greg @574
You’d get your wish if you could let go the myths and conspiracy theories and stop spreading misinformation.
Beamup,
I was thinking in terms of the increasing number of vaccines on the schedule correlating with the increased diagnosis of autism that Greg has pointed at, rather than the temporal association of vaccinations and autism becoming noticeable to parents. Either way, it isn't causation.
JGC,
It's broccoli, dammit - I keep telling people, but they just smile nervously, edge away until they're out of reach and sprint off, for some reason. I imagine Greg knows how that feels.
#574 IFDs?
Khani: Infectious fatal diseases, maybe?
I'd thought of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID ) but I'm pretty sure that must be wrong.
IFDs?
Obviously, Greg is using the *alternative* spelling of In Fectious Diseases.
* Simple...when you study Troll behavior.
Just a recap: I never admitted to being incapable of providing arguments for why I believe vaccines cause autism. I simply believe that the debate on your part is disingenuous, since you also don’t personally believe vaccines do not cause autism. Why should I debate you when the vast majority of you refused to state your personal beliefs on the issue and thereby suggesting that you have doubts of your own? Should I do so for the sheer academic stupidity of it? I might also add that throughout our discourses, I have already given my reasons for believing vaccines are responsible for autism. I explained that the circumstantial evidences centred on the parents’ reports overwhelmingly point to the casual role of vaccines in autism. I might also add that in some courts the preponderance of circumstantial evidences alone is enough to convict. Further, I illustrated my points by calling upon occam’s razor logic that the theory with the least exceptions usually wins the day. To believe that vaccines do not cause autism we must discount the parents’ stories. We must also ignore that the autism explosion coincides precisely in time with the expanded vaccination schedule. Further, we must also deny that there is truly an autism explosion. If we accept that there is such an explosion, we must believe in the implausible notion of a genetic epidemic. We must also consider that vaccines are known to cause seizures, brain inflammation, and other autoimmune issues that are also common in autism but stopping short of causing autism. We must also consider the fact that vaccines courts have paid out compensation for damages leading to autism, and we must discount these compensations as implying that vaccines cause autism. These exceptions fly in the face of occam’s razor logic. It’s just easier to believe that vaccines cause autism. Truth is usually beautiful and simply, and the hypothesis that vaccines do not cause autism is downright ugly.
Also, in challenging the scientific studies that purport to show that vaccines do not cause autism, I have dismissed these studies as mainly incomplete. I explained that, to date, the studies have mainly looked in thimerosal, MMR, and only one study on antigens. They definitely do not tell us if vaccines as administered in their totality and in the recommended childhood immunization schedule cause autism. The Cochrane review of the studies says as much. I explained that to settle this issue and come up with a definitive answer then we would need a vaxed/unvaxed study or a study of unvaxed populations showing a 1 in 50 autism rate. Provaxers argue that the vaxed/unvaxed study would be unethical, but I do not understand their hesitations in studying unvaxed populations to determine their autism rate. Also, the argument that it’s up to those who make a claim against vaccines to prove their claim is utter nonsense. With any product on the market, when suspicion about it’s safety falls upon it, it is up to the manufacture of the product to exhaust all safety tests and prove their product is safe. That has not been done with vaccines. Finally, though I am not predisposed to challenge the existing studies into the role of thimerosal and MMR in autism, I have reviewed the arguments criticizing the designs of these studies. I will leave you with the link below:
http://www.safeminds.org/research-now/safeminds-authored-commentary-cri…
How on earth do you still come up with that? Does "personally believe" mean something different to you than it does in standard English? People have said, in varying degrees of forcefulness and length that the evidence says vaccines do not cause autism, that they have been vaccinated themselves, that they have vaccinated their children, and that they recommend everyone get vaccinated unless they have some condition that makes it dangerous for them. And yet, somehow, because they won't sign on to your loyalty oath you believe everyone here is lying to you.
OK, Greg. I'll bite. What court based their decision on the *scientific* knowledge that vaccines cause autism? Remember, I said scientific. Not political. There has been NO vaccine court settlement for this in the US. "Autistic like behaviors" due to a mitochondrial issue are not autism. And give us citations.
SAFEMINDS???? You are using that site for information? Oh my gawd. No wonder you are such a sucker.
Please. You do realize that you can't have a "vax/unvaxed" study as you want, because you can't match populations accurately. All unvaxed populations have autism rates. (Kim Stagliano's third daughter, anyone?)
I sincerely hope you are nowhere near my cousin, who just had a child diagnosed with autism. I would not want any autistic child near you, with your disgust for them. XE is a wonderful baby, and deserves to learn with love and attention, not some horrid man who thinks XE is a blot on the escutcheon of humanity. (And we have suspected for months that XE would get an autism diagnosis...based on behaviors seen almost from birth).
I refuse to debate a vicious brute who continues to beat his wife. Why should anyone debate you when you refused to state whether you stopped beating your wife, thereby suggesting that you have not in fact stopped?
Shorter Greg @599:
Still got nothing.
Here's a little analogy for you, Greg. Make of it what you will:
I have lived in cattle country for 20 years. I like the outdoors, and often find myself walking or running through rangeland. Of course, I keep an eye out for cowpies. For the last 20 years, the cattle have been repeatedly producing this stuff. No matter how many times they repeat their production, it's still cowpies.
Greg:
Newsflash, Greg, it is not about "belief" it is about the evidence. And the evidence gathered over the past decade through much cost and time shows know correlation between vaccines and autism. So either come up with some real evidence from qualified researchers, or stop trolling.
I downloaded two of the articles from that link, and neither had a clear indication of the author of the pieces. So we cannot figure out if the person had actual qualifications (most likely not-a-scientist Blaxill), and the second one used Crosby's six degrees of separation argument.
So it stands that the evidence you need to produce is a PubMed indexed study from a qualified researcher. That means some who has not had their legal right to practice medicine revoked, and is has an unrelated education like law, business, geology, computer science, journalism, etc.
Oops: " shows no correlation between vaccines and autism. "
@PCG,
"Autism isn’t perpetual developmental stasis; parents can learn to eliminate triggers and kids can be taught to stop unacceptable behaviors. I mean, my first thought if I saw a hypothtical kid banging their head would be to try and figure out what the kid is reacting to."
If only it was that simple, PCG. If only it was that simple! In my field, I have observed autistics with a whole team of people working with them on their behavioral issues, including educators, behavior therapists, occupational therapists, MDs, support workers, parents and caregivers. Sadly, PCG, often such efforts fail and the behavioral issues, including head banging, continue. Like I said before, Autism is best not happened.
@MI Dawn,
What really is the difference between 'autistic like behaviours' and 'autism' other than a handy play with terminologies?
Also MI Dawn, I am sure XE is a wonderful baby. Too bad, most likely, vaccines had to taint some of that 'wonder'.
Greg @599: Your personal version of Occam’s razor is rusty and full of holes.
I’m not going to pick apart your points one by one again as that’s already been done over and over again in hundreds of comments on more than one blog post. And still you steadfastly refuse to consider our arguments, but merely repeat your own ad nauseum.
Greg @599: Your personal version of Occam’s razor is rusty and full of holes.
I’m not going to pick apart your points one by one again as that’s already been done over and over again in hundreds of comments on more than one blog post. And still you steadfastly refuse to consider our arguments, but merely repeat your own ad nauseum.
You are making assumptions about other people’s beliefs. You have already been told why most of the commenters here did not answer your question – and this I will repeat: it is because it is you, Greg, who is being “disingenuous” by using phrasing so leading it was impossible to answer the question honestly.
For the record: after following the scientific literature for over a decade, I believe that the vast majority of autism cases are not caused by vaccines. But I think you knew that already.
You ask:
Isn’t that why you are here? To pick arguments and provoke people? Sheer academic stupidity! Your tactics (such as what I mentioned above) demonstrate you are not posting here to engage in honest debate. Why should we debate you ?
Greg, if I’m way off base here, prove it. Post something that’s not simply justification for clinging to your previously stated beliefs. Spend some time truly thinking about the other half of the conversations you’ve had here – what we have all said to you, and the questions we’ve asked (yes; you have answered some, but I’m asking you to keep going with that).
If you truly want honest debate, you yourself have to participate honestly.
@Chemmo
"For the record: after following the scientific literature for over a decade, I believe that the vast majority of autism cases are not caused by vaccines. But I think you knew that already."
Holy Geezz!! Looks like that snowball did land in hell after all!! So Chemmo, are you saying that it's possible that some autistic cases might be caused by vaccines? Hit me slowly, because any more unexpected concessions on your part might shock me and cause me to faint. Hee, hee, hee!
Greg @611
No, Greg, I’m not. What I’m saying is that it’s not impossible. In other words, as an honest and objective person I cannot rule out the possibility of vaccine involvement for every single case of autism that’s ever existed, or will ever exist (the special case of Hannah Poling comes to mind). The way you have phrased it overstates the probability.
You see, the correct qualifier for the remainder after removing “the vast majority>/i> ” from “all ” is not some – it’s very few.
Don’t flatter yourself. I haven’t conceded anything. You cleared the floor and allowed me to state my honest opinion free from your ridiculous conditions, and I took advantage of the opportunity. I didn’t think I’d get another one from you. And if you think you’ve influenced that opinion at all, re-read the first clause of my statement.
I've been reading some of the comments and I have to wonder where can I see the head banging autistics who are non-verbal and need a big support team in order to cope with its behavior.
If only it was that simple, PCG. If only it was that simple! In my field, I have observed autistics with a whole team of people working with them on their behavioral issues, including educators, behavior therapists, occupational therapists, MDs, support workers, parents and caregivers. Sadly, PCG, often such efforts fail and the behavioral issues, including head banging, continue. Like I said before, Autism is best not happened.
If that's the only world view of Greg, no wonder he want autism eradicated from the planet; yet, in the clinic where I worked, they where nowhere to be found. Even the non-verbal ones were quiet and peaceful, generally happy to do the research tasks at hand and leading enjoyable life.
I have to wonder what's our secret :)
Alain
Greg: I simply believe that the debate on your part is disingenuous, since you also don’t personally believe vaccines do not cause autism.
Dude, do you believe in tables? Or do you know that tables exist? I don't need to believe that vaccines don't cause autism; I *know* they don't.
Greg: often such efforts fail and the behavioral issues, including head banging, continue. Like I said before, Autism is best not happened.
I think that may be a case of 'too many cooks.' One person, working alone, could alleviate the head banging, once they figure out what the triggers are. As they get older, autistic children will get better at coping with triggers and can hopefully learn to communicate- either through talking, signing or some other form- if they're in distress.
Also, Jeeeeeeeeeesuuusss man. Like the others, I'd suggest a different line of work. Every comment you make about autistic people just drips with contempt for them. And get my name right. It's PGP for short.
If you were my therapist, Greg, I, too, would be banging my head against the wall.
Kid to mom: Hey mom, what would our house look like if there was no gravity?
Mom: that's not possible because all the individual particles in the house would float away without gravity, so there wouldn't be a house. *
Kid: yes but what if they didn't, what would the house look like?
Mom: I told you, dear, that there would be no way for the house to remain connected because there would be no gravity to hold atoms and molecules together. Since it can't hold together, there would be no house.
Kid: But what if it could?
Mom: But it can't.
repeat with increasing aggravation on part of both for several interchanges.
Kid (for what seems like the zillionth time to the mom): but WHAT IF IT COULD??
Mom: How the #$*&( can I begin to imagine what would happen if it's absolutely impossible??? My imagination is not capable of that. My brain is going to explode.
Kid: now crying, runs to dad: mom said a bad word and yelled at me to get out of her hair.
Mom throws up hands and locks herself into the bathroom with a glass of wine and the tub filling with hot bubbly water.
This reminds me of the interchange with Greg who is a stand in for kid, who was about 7 at the time of this discussion.
* The various discussions were not literally about gravity and the house but just as impossible and actual details have been mercifully blotted out by the wine...
Yes, and you did so in the finest slapstick fashion of unnecessarily multiplying entities in the process.
@ Calling out our resident psychologist / financial advisor Denice Walter :)
I have a question regarding trading stock option. Basically, I'm reading a book on getting started in stock options as well as a book on technical analysis with the intent of creating a computer system programmed by myself to handle all the transactions by itself with little intervention from myself (setting the prices to buy/sell each day after reading all the morning reports). The computer would run unattended.
Is that considered gambling?
Alain
Greg, about Occam's razor.
I've heard various forms of it and similar. But here's a paraphrase: The simplest solution that fits all the known facts is probably the correct one. That's the problem with your use of it: you omit the "fits all known facts" part. And the facts are that there is no plausible mechanism by which the MMR Jab can cause autism; Andrew Wakefield has been exposed as a liar with multiple undeclared conflicts of interest; the supposedly "independent" researchers who replicated his work are either associates of his or didn't replicate his work, and; in the Omnibus Autism Proceedings, the six best Test Cases lost. In fact, the petitioners were trounced.
http://biostate.blogspot.ca/2005/12/no-vaccines-no-autism-noted-among.h…
“But thousands of children cared for by Homefirst Health Services in metropolitan Chicago have at least two things in common with thousands of Amish children in rural Lancaster: They have never been vaccinated. And they don't have autism.
"We have a fairly large practice. We have about 30,000 or 35,000 children that we've taken care of over the years, and I don't think we have a single case of autism in children delivered by us who never received vaccines," said Dr. Mayer Eisenstein, Homefirst's medical director who founded the practice in 1973. Homefirst doctors have delivered more than 15,000 babies at home, and thousands of them have never been vaccinated.
The few autistic children Homefirst sees were vaccinated before their families became patients, Eisenstein said. "I can think of two or three autistic children who we've delivered their mother's next baby, and we aren't really totally taking care of that child -- they have special care needs. But they bring the younger children to us. I don't have a single case that I can think of that wasn't vaccinated."
I know you guys will dismiss the preceding as anti-vax propaganda. Still, I mentioned that unvaxed populations should be studied to see if they have a 1 in 50 autism rate. As any effort been undertaken to verify Mr. Eisentein's claim of no autism in his patients, if no then why?
I thought I recognized the "Homefirst" name. Orac has written about it here:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/08/27/more-antivaccination-nonse…
And just incidentally, the Amish do vaccinate. Their lower level of autism, if it is even real, may be due to other factors such as life style or genetics.
@LW - the Amish have a higher incidence of other developmental disorders (which may mask whatever the true autism rate is), due to their limited genetic diversity.
Greg,
Dr. Mayer Eisenstein is a supplement peddling antivaccine nut whose Homefirst medical practice didn't notice a newborn baby had bilirubin encephalopathy and allowed him to die. The practice has also been accused of other catastrophic medical mistakes. Eisenstein treats autistic children with Lupron, an injectable drug sometimes used to chemically castrate sex offenders. I would not trust Eisenstein as far as I could throw him.
What about Generation Rescue's 2007 survey, which found 37 children with ASDs out of 991 unvaccinated children, which makes 3.73% or 1 in 27?
Oddly this seems to have disappeared from Generation Rescue's website.
Sigh. Sorry about the mess above. My preview program is smart enough to end a link if I accidentally put a "a" before a "/", but Wordpress, it seems, is not. There are two links, which both work, please ignore the underlining in the text starting with, "The practice".
I would not trust Eisenstein as far as I could throw him.
May I offer you a trebuchet?
Eisenstein is also a proprietor of both "industrial chelation" therapies & chemical castration for autistics.....really nice guy, I can see why Greg likes him so much.
LOL.
Yeah, I agree. Homefirst is a hand-picked practice. Upper class, white, cash only. Maybe they *don't* see autistic children because any parent who goes there and has a child with autism quits going there, knowing they'll be accused of causing it by the EBIL VACCINES!!!11!!!!!.
And Greg is talking about the Amish, too? For pete's sake. What, he's drunk the lazy journalist koolaid who couldn't find the clinic that cares for them?
I'm going back to bed.
@ Alain:
It can be gambling.
I wouldn't advise anyone - unless they had money literally to burn- to get involved. You can get really hurt.
I learned about investing because people in my family were involved over their life spans: there is no "get rich quick".
People may tell you that they made a "killing" in the market but never reveal how many times they *got* killed. Just like the fellows who brag about winning at the horse track but never mention their losses.
Incredible!! And you guys wonder why I consider you disingenuous and failed scientists. If you have respected, formidable science on your side, why not you use it to squash these little 'skirmishes' of claims that certain populations are seeing less autism. Instead, all we hear is pitiful whining about how Drs. Eisenstein is not to be trusted. Orac goes on about how, "Drs. Eisenstein, Schattauer, and Bradstreet (should) produce some actual data from well-documented, well-designed clinical trials, or even any objective data." No Orac, if they are not to be trusted, let's not leave anything up to them to produce! Let's take matters into our own hands and march our scientists down to their headquarters and produce the trustworthy science that will blow their claims out of the water. Surprisingly, Lawrence conceded that the Amish may indeed have less autism. Guys, I wish words could express how stunned I get when you concede anything. Still Lawrence, you are suggesting that the Amish's suspected lower autism rate might be do to other lifestyle factors than vaccines. Again guys, are you really listening to yourselves? We have autism that is ravaging families in epidemic numbers and you are not showing any motivation in searching the high ends of the earth to come up with answers. If the Amish have lower autism should we not still study them and determine their actual autism rate and use this as a start to tweak out the other factors that might account for their lower rate? Who knows, even if it's not due to the vaccines, maybe we could learn how to copy their other lifestyle habits that are contributing to their lower autism. Sorry guys, I am just thinking aloud. Don't let this get in the way of continuing with your over one billion dollars of genetic research into autism. Losers!!
Greg,
What about the Generation Rescue study that found 1 in 27 unvaccinated children had ASDs? How can you continue to ignore this? It was carried out by people who believe that vaccines cause autism, so you can't complain these results are due to bias.
As for research, you take a look at some of the recent studies resulting from the aggressive search for the cause of autism, that you seem curiously unaware of, more than 20,000 of them since last year. Most of them point the finger very definitely in the direction of genetics. You might learn something and maybe even recover from your pretend delusions about vaccines and autism.
By the way, what have your contributions to autism research been? Or are you one of those losers who criticize research but don't have the skills to do any themselves?
That should be "causes of autism", plural, because if anything is certain it is that it is multifactorial.
Greggie, are you ever going to answer the question about study design?
@Krebiozen,
'more that 20,0000 of them since last year....'
Pardon me, but was that a flush sound from a toilet that I heard?
"We dong get them in Maracaibo."
Wow, Greg really is infantile, isn't he.....I mean, the rates of various development disabilities in Amish communities, including Downs & other genetic disorders are proportionally higher (in some communities, extremely more so) that autism would be the least of their worries.....kind of hard to use that kind of population to figure out much of anything, other than you are going to find an increase of a lot of "genetic abnormalities" - of which autism is but one - and actually, since autism is an entire spectrum of defined symptoms, it is possible that you could classify a wide range of genetic conditions as autism).
I continued to be surprised that he is so supremely un-self-aware to be as moronic as he is.
Again, he's representing the Catholic Church railing against Galileo because his "Science" goes against what they see with their own eyes (that everything revolves around the Earth).
He's hopeless.
@616, BrewandFerment,
Your mother-boy exchanges on the 'gravity house' was quite funny. I had a good chuckle. Don't know though if the analogy correctly sums up our debates. What I will say though is that there is something about a child asking simple questions. Do you know who magicians say are the hardest people to fool? Yes, you guessed it -- kids! It goes something like this.....
Magician: (Opening his hand) See folks the ball is gone.
Kid: (Pointing to his other hand) What about that hand?
Magician: (Magician blushfully) Hey kid, you got me.
Perhaps vaccine pushers should start answering some simple questions of their own....
'Why did autism that was unheard before the 1940s explode and precisely in step with the expanded vaccination schedule, to the state that it is today with there being one autistic child on any given playground'?
"Why does the mysterious autism phenomenon uncannily seems to strike right around the time of vaccines"?
"Why are we being told that autism is genetic, while a genetic epidemic is unheard of"?
"Why are vaccine courts paying out for damages leading to autism despite saying that vaccines do not cause autism"?
BrewandFerment, until vaccine pushers start providing reasonable answers to these simple, child-full questions, expect more people to start doubting the hocus pocus.
Please show the data that indicates that this was precisely in step. Please also show the data that indicates the condition did not exist before being named in either 1938 or 1943 (depending on which language you're talking about).
Perhaps it isn't an epidemic?
If such payouts exist (and yes, we're aware of what happened in Italy) perhaps it's because courts are not restricted to basing their findings on scientifically provable fact?
The Greg troll reminds me a bit of the people who used to follow Lyndon Larouche. They would set up a card table in front of a bank (why always a bank?) and try to sell their literature, such as it was. As in the GT's posts, they would season a little bit of truth with a whole lot of paranoia. Like the anti-vaccine folks, they had a list of enemies and evil-doers. Unlike the anti-vaccine folks, their list of evil-doers included the British royal family, George H.W. Bush, Jews in general (particularly those who held some political appointment), and almost all professional economists. This list is not remarkably different in scope from the anti-vaccine folks, who have substituted pharmaceutical companies for the British royal family, and practicing physicians for the first Bush presidency. The logic is eerily similar for the two sides.
What the Larouche followers and the GT have in common is the ability to repeat questionable assertions and complete untruths even when confronted with counter-evidence, and the ability -- seemingly even the desire -- to generate hostile responses in their audiences.
I think that the latter point is, in fact, the game. I think that you can recognize trolling as much by the reaction of the target audience as by the specific wording of the troll posts. Trolling can be directly insulting, or it can be "concern trolling" as exemplified by the GT. It's still trolling.
One comment which is not intended to feed the troll, but may be of interest to the scientifically interested folks: Back when I was in grad school, there was a social gathering hosted by one of the faculty members where visiting speakers would drop by and share a little wine and cheese. One of the distinguished speakers, who had made a major contribution regarding cellular ion flux, pointed out that when it comes to biology, Occam's Razor is not operative. I think he had a good point, because every cellular system and subsystem we have looked at turns out to have complexity that we didn't expect, turns out to have regulatory pathways that go round and round, and basically show a bewildering level of unexpected interactions. In short, some things are complicated, and some things in biology are incredibly complicated.
And developmental biology is one of those complicated things. Considering the evolutionary newness of the human brain and the complexity of interactions involving some large multiple of a trillion cells, and each of these cells interacting with multiple other cells, it's not surprising that neurobiology is taking a while to sort out. When I look through recent pubmed articles on autism and genetics, it is obvious that the syndrome shows developmental differences linked to gene activities. Moreover, in mouse models (where you can actually look at fetal development), there are changes that are apparent well before birth, and these changes only depend on the genetic assortment contributed by the parents.
I would suggest that the autism debate, such as it is, will dwindle as science progresses, just as the Burzynski treatment will be more and more ignored as real progress is made in treating gliomas.
Greg, nobody could possibly be as stupid as you pretend to be, so I'm not going to waste any time addressing you. For any lurkers who are still here at this late date:
It wasn't "unheard" (of, I assume) before the 1940s, it was unrecognized as a specific syndrome before the 1940s. The same number of people you would expect exhibited the same symptoms before, they just weren't bundled into a specific symptomology.
Nothing "exploded". Once you start looking for a particular ailment, you're going to find more of it, and you'll find more and more the harder you look.
Total BS, as has been shown to you time after time.
Because before St. Ronnie Ray-gun emptied out all the institutions and group homes they'd been hidden away in before, you never saw them on the playground. Now you do.
It first becomes noticeable even to the uninitiated sometime fairly soon after (or before, the human memory being the wonderful tool that it is) six months of age, when some vaccines are by coincidence, scheduled. However, signs are quite visible in video recordings long before that to people with expert knowledge.
You're being told autism is genetic because autism is genetic: duh! A genetic epidemic may be unheard of (citation needed), but since there's no "epidemic", that's kind of irrelevant, don't you think?
The vaccine court has paid out for "damages" (never autism, you dishonest weasel) to a few thousand cases out of the hundreds of millions of doses of vaccines delivered. The large majority even of these were probably coincidence, but they don't have to meet the standard of evidence of a real court. The few that were actually "caused" by vaccines simply followed a high fever "subsequent to" the vaccines. Even if the vaccine did "cause" this particular fever, we are to believe that this particular child would never, ever in their life get a fever, if not for the evil vaccines? Especially if they got the disease the vaccine protects against? Now I'll tell one.
Again, to any lurkers: Greg has even brought up the "unvaccinated Amish" crap that has been debunked so many many times on this blog and others. This ought to demonstrate what a dishonest douchenozzle he is. The Amish don't vaccinate at any lower rates than the general population—probably higher, because they're insulated from the media frenzy about Wakefield's fraud and other antivaxx crapola. They have plenty of autism—and a lot more of other mentally challenged children because of inbreeding. They have institutions where they are cared for—although antivax loonies can't seem to find them in the phone book. Also, their simpler lifestyle probably allows many people to stay at home who would be problematic in the larger American culture.
This is probably a day late and a dollar short. I hardly ever comment here any more since the NatGeo coup, because of the incredibly virulent strain of Javascript it's infected with now (I sure wish there was a vaccine for that!) Reading it is an incredible pain, commenting is well-nigh impossible.
Yes, Bob G! This right here:
Occam's Razor only applies when Rube Goldberg isn't involved in the "design" of a system. When he is, as he seems to be in many biological processes, it's out the window.
I see a lot of pronouns without antecedents in my post above—hopefully people can figure it out. To move the cursor back to correct anything is to stare at the Spinning Beachball of Death™ for two or three minutes, so one tends not to correct as much as one should.
I suppose I should compose in TextEdit and then copy and paste—but I see people do this who obviously composed in MS Word and the formatting is FUBAR, so I've been unwilling to take the risk.
"There used to be an image here, but the estate of Charles Atlas complained"
Greg: “Why are we being told that autism is genetic, while a genetic epidemic is unheard of”?
Actually it's pretty well-documented that certain populations of people are more susceptible to certain genetic syndromes. People of African descent are more likely to develop sickle-cell anemia then anyone of European descent, and Tay-sachs used to be endemic in the Ashkenazi Jewish population. I don't believe that autism is 100% genetic..but it's far more likely than being caused by vaccines.
autism that was unheard before the 1940s
One wonders as well about the genetic epidemic of Down Syndrome, which was unheard of before the 1840s.
@The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
At one time, I was viewing the site on the text mode lynx browser on linux. No javascript and perfectly good rendering of text. The site also loaded in less than a second.
here's a win32 version of lynx:
http://lynx-win32-pata.sourceforge.jp/
There's an english and a japanese version.
Alain
@ pgp: My close friends who are Ashkenazi Jews, found out (inadvertently), that one of them is a a carrier for Tach-Sachs disease. They are the parents of my *other son* who I visit every week in his group home and who I am the substitute legal guardian for.
When their daughter got pregnant she was found to have the Tay-Sachs gene, but her husband did not have the T-S autosomal recessive genetic mutation. (He's German with a tinge of Irish heritage and a Christian). But, it is also possible for non-Jews to have the T-S mutation, as well:
http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/tay-sachs-disease
Through my friend, I met another mother of a child born with a "Jewish genetic disease" (Canavan disease), who wrote a book about her son Zachariah. Coincidentally, she was diagnosed with a BRCA gene mutation and had elective double mastectomies more than 20 years ago:
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20120926/LIFE/309260019/Ames-a…
These two (among many), degenerative genetic diseases, do not make an epidemic, because children die from these diseases in early childhood.
Thanks, Alain,—but I'm on a Mac, which seems to be the problem. I've also been using Firefox, because I'm addicted to several extensions they have. I'm using Safari for this reply and it's much faster—which I already knew....Just need to remember to switch when I go to NatGeo sites.
@ herr doktor bimler:
We now *know*, thanks to the superb investigative team of Blaxsted/Stagmom/Conrick at AoA, that the "Kanner Kids" may/may not, have been, all been located. Details to follow...
http://www.autismone.org/content/age-autism-year-review-and-search-kann…
"Mark, Kim, and Dan will review the year, and then they will debut a new 8-minute video How Mercury Triggered the Age of Autism. We’ll talk with Teresa Conrick about her discovery of the first-born child with an autism diagnosis and the hunt for the Kanner 11."
@ Denice,
According to the books I read, there are 3 profile of investors (of option but maybe stock market investment too): the one relying on his emotions (which I'd refer as the gambler). The other 2 types are differents types of decision makers; one viewing his 4 monitors and running his calculation in his head to decide where to invest that day. Finally, there's the one decision maker who craft financial model for his computer but the computer do the actual work.
What may vary between all 3 is the use of emotions in decision making which range from being driven by emotions to using the least amount of emotions to make a decision (using emotions is pretty much inescapable in doing investment but it's possible to limit its involvement).
Regarding my plans, I would do research on automated financial modeling using computer system and I'd craft math models based on statistical learning to build my financial system. I hope to build a software able to calculate enough variables so that all I have to adjust is the "Investment Risk" knob. I don't know if this will be possible but it's my goal and I will put at least the same effort at doing it as I put in the meta-analysis I did some years ago.
Again, is this gambling?
As for the answer to this question, I will use it with my counsellor at the rehab center for addiction.
Alain
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge -
“To move the cursor back to correct anything is to stare at the Spinning Beachball of Death™ for two or three minutes”
Perhaps you are low on free RAM - use Application>Utilities>Activity Monitor and see how you're placed. My experience is OS X behaves extremely poorly under low RAM (to the point I’m left wondering if their VM system is a load of rubbish). YMMV, etc.
Grant—I definitely could use more memory, but I'm saving up for a new computer instead. I don't want to sidetrack the thread with my problems (but after 651 comments, is that really possible?), but even freshly-booted with maximum RAM, just displaying the page pegs my CPU; to do anything complicated (like scroll down) is like asking it to divide by zero.
This is true of all the SciBlogs sites. I can disable Javascript, of course, but then the display is very minimal, no numbers, and of course I can't comment.
Like I said, I just need to switch back and forth—you really want to use up RAM, have two browsers running at the same time! Safari's main downfall seems to be an atrocious memory leak if you have a bunch of tabs open—but everything's a tradeoff, I guess.
Greg,
That does appear to be your automatic response to any evidence that doesn't fit your prejudices: dispose of it without even looking at it.
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge rebuttal of Greg:
You see folks prior to the 1940s autism was just lumped into the big 'mentally retarded' label. Just ask your grandmother about all the kids she knew growing up that were non-verbal, head banged, and 'stimmed'.
Also, who says that kids don't show signs of autism prior to vaccines and even regressed before 6 months. Look at all the parents out there who are saying how their cute little 'dolls' stopped smiling for the video recorder before 6 months of age.
Of course autism is not an epidemic. Again, look at all the adults in their 30s, 40s, and 50s who are non-verbal, head bang, and still in diapers. Yes, go to any mental institution and you will find them. We don't know why these autistics are suddenly costing us more for their care, but their numbers are definitely not increasing.
Finally, vaccine courts made payouts for damages leading to autism but these courts used a lower threshold for proof. It was so low that they didn't even contest the charges.
See folks, don't listen to Greg with his crazy take on Occam's Razor.
@Greg - oh, there were plenty of those - just ask the the staff of the dozens, if not hundreds of state institutions around the country that existed for decades where, at the first sign of mental illness, kids were packed off and sent there for life......
And again, you keep ignoring the fact that there are plenty of autistic adults around - some of whom started out non-verbal, but improved over time (because autism is developmental delay, not stasis).
You are still a moron.
Wait, I am confused. So now Occam's Razor no longer means among competing hypotheses, the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions should be selected and it instead means that you should add assumptions to your hypothesis when evidence is lackluster?
I mean, Greg is clearly using Occam's Razor to back his argument, the same argument that adds assumption that people, who disagree with him are liars, assumes that lack of consensus behind his hypthesis is due to conspiracy of Big Pharma (all hail Draco Seneka Pharma, the Great Overlord!) and so on, and so forth.
I think someone here does not understand how the Occam's Razor is supposed to work.
My grandmother had two much-older cousins, born in the 1870s, who were non-verbal. She didn't mention whether they head-banged or stimmed, but she specifically mentioned that one would scream and howl.
@The Smith of Lie,
No Smith-man, Occam's Razor still rules! It's simply vaccines cause autism and we reject the problematic notion that vaccines do not cause autism that will require us to accept the assumptions that I mentioned and with their being more.
@ Alain:
If you would do ALL of that, it probably wouldn't be gambling.
I find it easier to buy funds wherein *their* people do all of the 'heavy lifting' and rely upon rating systems. With a few exceptions based on historical odd events after the crash.
You need a great deal of money to get started- even if averaging overall 5% a year ( e.g.stock div/ corporate bonds)- Let's say you require 20K Canadian per year to live reasonably- you need a lot of money to do that.
lilady: I'm aware that Tay-sachs and Canarvon's kill off people in childhood, but I was using them and sickle-cell anemia as examples of genetic problems that mainly affect one population. I think there may be some that affect non-Jewish Europeans..but I can't think of any off-hand.
@ Denice, according to my standard of living, I'd need 14K a year to live very fine, and with a return of 5%, I would need 280K in base capital.
Here's a portfolio I intend to apply on as research assistant when I get back to Bishop's:
http://seedportfolio.ubishops.ca/
I don't know what's the returning interest rate but they managed to double their return over a period of 14 years (taking into account the crash of 2008).
I'll apply to take care of the pharma / health care sector of the fund.
Alain
PGP,
Beta-thalassemias ( Mediterranean, parts of Africa and Asia) and G6PD deficiency (Africa, Middle East and South Asia) spring to mind.
In European populations there's persistence of lactase in adults, though that's an advantage, not a problem
Greg, you ignorant slut. I could credibly show that the availability of tropical fruit in Canadian groceries stores mirrors the rise in autism. Prove me wron.
Or wrong
To any of those hypothetical neutral observers: You will notice from Greg's able synopsis of my rebuttal at #654 that he is well aware of the truth—seriously, read 654 for a thoroughly accurate take on the situation—he just refuses to believe it (or pretends not to believe it for trolling purposes.) He is a completely dishonest, lying shıtweasel.
666! W00t!
Also, isn't cystic fibrosis a purely northern European genetic anomaly? Of course, at this late date particularly in America, people neither of whose parents look particularly Norwegian can still get it from both sides of the family (very rarely, I assume).
Thanks Kreb. I'll look them up when I get a chance. And yes, I have heard that lactase persistence was originally a 'bug' in humans, but eventually turned into an advantage.
Agashem, the sexist slurs really aren't helping. Just let Greg's foolishness speak for itself.
Ah, perhaps you don't know the reference to Saturday Night Live. Look up Dan Aykroyd on the News segment with Jane Curtin, that's what I was referring to. BTW I am a lady, you know.
@Lawrence,
So Lawrence as well as admitting that the Amish may indeed have lower autism you are also conceding that there might actually be more autistic children than adults. Lawrence, didn't I warn you to caution me before you make any unexpected concessions? Please don't wait until I come down with a weak heart condition before you finally admit to vaccines causing autism. Anyway, you are saying that autism is not 'stasis' and that kids can outgrow it. What percentage of today's adults in their 30s, 40s and 50s do you think really outgrew their autism? I am guessing it would have to be a significant amount to account for the disparity in numbers between kids and adults with autism. Lawrence, I still have to wonder though if what you're saying is true and autism overtime isn't really increasing then why are taxpayers' autism costs increasing? Anyway Lawrence, I will leave you to ponder that, but your 'autism not being statis' idea may also be instructive. Perhaps we could get in touch with adults who outgrew their autism and learn such things as what age their parents reported that they suddenly started talking after being non-verbal. They could also fill us in on when they stopped their head banging, screaming fits, and poop smearing. Heck, maybe they have photo album evidence to back up their stories.
@Adam,
Adam you are the one that is thinking sexist by making an issue of Agashem calling me a slut. Don't you know that the term may rightfully apply to a woman as well as a man?
@Agashem,
Sometimes I wonder why parents with autistic children get so upset when someone says vaccines are responsible for autism. Then I consider: If I were a parent with an autistic child, would I want to deal with the guilt and anger that vaccines caused my child's autism, or dismiss his/her autism as a genetic fluke that could not have been prevented? Further, when pro-vaxers accuse parents of looking for something to blame for their kid's autism, I shake my head and think that in the normal course of things, nothing could be farther from the truth.
Do not feed the troll.
Sorry, but has somebody added even more Javascript cruft to this joint? I can't even get the page to fully load.
I am trying not to but no I am not guilty or angry. Just needed to say that.
Any more evidence needed that Greg is a complete slimeball?
Just read his last post.
@Chris,
The troll doesn't ponder at my comments so I'm pretty safe.
@ Anyone except the troll,
If I use these (sometime redundant) criteria to do a search about autistics in a scanner:
((("Positron-Emission Tomography and Computed Tomography"[Mesh] OR "Positron-Emission Tomography"[Mesh]) OR "Magnetic Resonance Imaging"[Mesh]) OR "Neuroimaging"[Mesh]) AND "Child Development Disorders, Pervasive"[Mesh] AND "humans"[MeSH Terms]
There is 1006 studies so lets say there's 90% of them being experimental studies actually testing autistics at various tasks; that makes 900 studies (we'll go low for estimation purpose), each studies using 12 autistics subject (again, we'll go low, some goes for 30 autistics and asperger subjects).
900 * 12 == 10 800 autistics subjects; at least
10 800 head banging, screaming fits, and poop smearing (according to the troll)
Sedated? not for functional studies.
Haloperidol maybe? nope, show up in the scan and affect functional studies.
Duct tape over the head (not the eyes though) and the entire body while 5 research member shove the autistics into the f*cking scanner bed. You betcha. We need more Dexter in research but we're getting a handle into wrapping autistics in the scanner bed (makes for a good popcorn show btw).
Oh, and btw, we have to hire janitor at extra prices to clean the scanner after a poop slinging session. No problemo, this is covered by funding agency but this limit the number of scan per day to 4 session. No big deal; after 4 autistics, we're so wasted out that it's dangerous to drive back home (for those grad student able to afford a car).
about once every week, we wonder why we've gotten in this field of research. Must be because autism speak has a lot of money.
Oh, next week, we're expected to draw blood from our autistics subject for the new study of neurobehavioral genetics the boss want us to look into. Fortunately, he'll bring in some guys and gals from genetics studies to give us a hand.
Alain
Sorry, but has somebody added even more Javascript cruft to this joint? I can’t even get the page to fully load.
Not javascript, I tried to load the site using lynx and averaged about 600 bytes (yes bytes) per second on lynx and this browser don't support javascript or flash.
I was thinking DDoS.
Alain
Loads just as well as it always did in IE (slowly). Seems to be OK in Firefox and Safari.
Greg:
So Lawrence as well as admitting that the Amish may indeed have lower autism you are also conceding that there might actually be more autistic children than adults.
Leaving aside your obvious problems of drawing too long a bow, TVRBOK pointed out in #640 that
So you could argue that vaccines prevent autism.
Problem, Greg?
Narad, it hung for a while. But then I hit reload it was all okay in Firefox.
Let us not feed the very clueless Greg troll.
I couldn't access RI for a while, but now it's back the 'Recent Insolence delivered' bug appears to have been fixed. I'm not yet sure about the 'Recent Insolence returned' bug.
Yeah, no reason at all to deal with Greg, who doesn't seem to have one rational bone in his body.
@Alain
"The troll doesn’t ponder at my comments so I’m pretty safe."
Actually Alain, a while back you said something to the extent that autism and vaccines are a complex thing. Care to expand?
@Julian,
What evidence do you have that the Amish have more autism when all indications point to them having less? Even Lawrence is prepared to concede such.
@Lawrence and Chris,
Guys, I am not a troll. I am here to have fair and honest exchanges with you guys. Again, it is also my hope that after such efforts you guys will think about moving beyond your VCADOD (vaccines causing autism denialism obsessive disorder).
Care to expand?
No.
Greg, the moment you called autistics brain-damaged was the moment it became clear you had no interest in fair and honest exchanges.
Bullsh!t.
That is so obviously untrue from everything you have written here, I don't know how you have the gall to say that.
You don't just have to convince us, you have to convince tens of thousands of doctors, scientists and public health officials all over the world who longer consider the hypothesis that vaccines cause of autism as even worth cpmnsidering, because there is so much evidence against it. You have lost the argument, your claims have been disproven, it's time for you and your AoA cronies toaccept that you are considered the lunatic fringe by the more than 90% of people who vaccinate their children, and who understand that vaccination is the greatest invention for public health since the development of sewerage systems and clean water supplies.
That is the last morsel of troll food you will get from me.
Greg,
I didn't say they had more autism. I highlighted Lawrence's point that they vaccinated more. This would seem to dent your case that vaccines cause autism.
Bleurgh - comment escaped before proof reading, hopefully obvious typos are obvious.
Jake Crosby is still scheduled to speak about advocacy at the Quack Fest...but his "slide show" has *suddenly disappeared*:
http://www.autismone.org/content/challenging-consensus-through-effectiv…
Make that TVRBOK's point that they vaccinated more
Greg, it's really very simple: you want us to move beyond our "vaccines causing autism denialism obsessive disorder"? No problem--all you have to do is provide sufficient actual evidence establishing a causal association between routine immunization and risk of developing an autism spectrum disorder to counter the existing body of evidence opposing that conclusion.
Your continued refusal to, as you put it, " get bogged down in a debate about whether vaccines cause autism", reveals any claim you're "here for open and honest exchanges with you guys" to be a lie.
Greg:
You had a month to provide the PubMed indexed study showing that a vaccine from the present American pediatric schedule caused more seizures than the disease. Or to stop trolling.
You refused to provide the answer, and you continued to troll. What is amazing is that this has to e explained to you.
Go away troll.
Been away for a few days. Has Greg provided any actual evidence to support his nonsensical claims? No?
Oh, I had to chuckle at this gem from Greg:
Greg's digging back a few years for that one. So out of date. To which I respond: exercise gives you polio!
Au contraire, Dreg is the trolliest troll seen round here in recent memory. Tedious as he is though, if he's here trolling RI that means he's not out not inflicting ableist judgements on his autistic "clients".
Tedious as he is though, if he’s here trolling RI that means he’s not out inflicting ableist judgements on his autistic “clients”.
Greg #684
Honest exchanges involve a presumption of honesty by both parties.
Those interested in having fair and honest exchanges do not keep score.
Then there’s your comment 184 from May 3d http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/05/01/autismone-2013-a-quackfest…
Cool. When do you start?
Here’s a portfolio I intend to apply on as research assistant when I get back to Bishop’s
Snif, I think I'm going insane, must be the lack of sleep. Here I goes talking about options, stocks and investment and more important, returning to Bishop's
I call Laval university in Quebec city, get my questions answered and then some, ponder at my options and apply to the industrial engineering bachelor.
I guess that a move is in order next year.
Alain
Oh and btw, I have to do distance course for Cal 1, matrix algebra, mechanics and maybe general bio (the last one to improve my grades) so that's the main reason of the call to Laval university.
@Krebiozen,
"You have lost the argument, your claims have been disproven, it’s time for you and your AoA cronies toaccept that you are considered the lunatic fringe by the more than 90% of people who vaccinate their children."
So how long will more than 90% of people continue to vaccinate their children? Here is how I see things looking bad for you guys.
1. Time is not on your side.
The more time that passes without you guys providing answers and solutions about autism, the more that suspicion and anger will grow. And, this especially will be the case as the public have more first hand exposure with autistic kids that are aging out of schools. Also, with more suspicion and calls for answers, expect more hotshots, 'shyte' disturber researchers, who haven't learned the Wakefield lesson, to become more emboldened and start stirring up crap.
2. The truth is not on your side.
Vaccines do cause autism. Again, the more time that passes the more chance that such evidence will get out.
3. Autism does not discriminate among class lines.
If you look at any long standing injustices in history, they continue because they mainly affect the poor and marginalized. Take the 'war on drugs' for example. This 'war' has been a monumental failure that has resulted in countless lives ruined and untold deaths. The main victims though are the poor and marginalized. In fact, this 'war' benefits the upper class, comprising of politicians, judges and individuals in law enforcement. Autism, on the other hand, is a different matter. Autism does not cut across all class lines, and it goes without saying that the rich and powerful are not happy having autistic kids. These people who have a significant voice in society will continue to be a pain in the backside of the vaccination program when their kids develop autism. Following this thinking, it might be beneficial for you guys that the super rich and powerful are the ones that are currently vaccinating less. Yet, that still leaves many six figures income families who will be super pissed when their kids develop autism. Again, expect more Polings and Olmsteads.
@Greg
Simply repeating a claim is not the same as providing evidence supporting that claim. Why do you continuously fail to comprehend this? Or at least, why do you insist on portraying yourself as so clueless?
Further to 701 guys....
I can appreciate the tension that you must be feeling. Your house is impressive --indeed majestic-- but it, nevertheless, is built of sticks. Who can deny that with a good gust of wind it is bound to come thunderously crashing down? Who can also deny that the wind has started to swirl and will pick up speed?
@Todd,
He keep wanting to say the last word, let him say it :)
It's impossible to reason one out of a deep hole if he dug it himself and keep digging.
Alain
and with that, I bring you:
The legacy of Andrew Wakefield continues
Enjoy
Alain
Greg keeps on ignoring the tens of millions of kids who've been vaccinated without developing an ASD.
Yep, it's still cowpies.
What evidence will get out as time passes, exactly, establishing that vaccines cause autism? Be specific.
Oh, wait: you don't have any.
Ah, the "it's only a matter of time" defense. Essentially the same as "first ridiculed, then violently opposed, then accepted as self-evident" idea.
Time has told. Time has shown that the vaccine hypothesis was false. Generation Rescue, SafeMinds, the Autism Treatment Trust and more have quietly set aside their campaigns to show the "truth" about vaccines and autism. Greg is stuck in 2003 when the idea was just implausible.
Do not feed the troll. Apparently this is a duplicate comment. Why an I repeating myself? Ignore Greg! Really, he is an idiot!
Hey Guys,
Chris did bring up a good point. In the same way you wouldn't listen to a madman rant on the street, why would you entertain my 'inane', 'stupendous' rants? Will you then not allow me to rant uncontested. Be aware though that doing so may run the risk that an undecided lurker may not find such rants 'stupendous' and 'inane' after all? Decisions, decisions!
Not a hard decision at all. Any 'undecided lurker' will undoubtedly see you for the moron you are. If you want to go uncontested, go back to your echo chamber where everyone's heads are embedded as far up their arses as yours is.
Umm....let see.....so far, everything the madman on the street did was ask questions (and what if scenario) and running a tally to count how many liar are here. No. Evidence. Period.
And an undecided lurker would rely on that to make a decision?
Alain
"Stupendous"?
Paging Señor Montoya to post #711! Señor Iñigo Montoya!
Greg:
Answer my question, you have had a month to find a study. Or stop trolling.
Rant on your own blog.
I see I missed nothing while my blinky box was on the fritz. (Life has not been kind to the router..poor baby.)