When a parent won't abide by the understanding behind a non-medical exemption to school vaccine mandates

As I write this, I'm kind of beat.

The reason for this is simple. Traveling sucks the energy out of me, and I just got back from almost four days in Houston for the Society of Surgical Oncology (SSO) meeting. Yes, I was a mere dozen (at most) miles from that Heart of Darkness known as the Burzynski Clinic for a few days, and I didn't even succumb to the temptation to catch a cab out there and take a selfie with the Burzynski Clinic in the background. Part of the reason was that it would just be more expense than it's worth. The other part of the reason is that it would be a bit hard to explain to a cabbie why I wanted to do that. Either way, I didn't see it as being the least bit practical to rent a car when I didn't even know the city and was planning on attending most of the conference anyway.

Be that as it may, when I'm this beat I don't feel like taking on anything too hard today. Yeah, I'm slumming. Such is life sometimes. This will also be shorter than the usual Orac post. (That's probably a good thing.) I'll try to do something more sophisticated tomorrow. Fortunately for me (maybe), I'm still a little annoyed at a story that appeared in the local media here the other day, while I was still in Houston. Basically, it's the story of a mother in one of the wealthier suburbs of the Detroit area who, well, take a guess from the title of the story: Chickenpox: Mom furious after school sends son home:

A Birmingham mother is furious after her sixth-grade son was sent home from class today because he's not fully vaccinated against chickenpox.

One of Michael Donovan's classmates is among three students in Birmingham Public Schools who is infected.

"I wasn't vaccinated, and I don't think it's fair that I can't go to school," Michael, 11, said after his mother, Sarah, was called to the school to pick him up.

Leaving the school, she said she was "beyond not happy," referring to a district spokeswoman's comment earlier this week that some parents were not happy with the decision to exclude unvaccinated children from schools with confirmed chickenpox cases. Neither school officials nor health officials would say whether those students had been vaccinated, citing privacy concerns.

As the story notes, chickenpox is caused by the varicella zoster virus (VZV). It's also highly contagious, spread through the air or touching objects objects with the virus on it. Chickenpox is usually not deadly, but it can cause serious complications. Generally, it forms a blister-like rash, itching, fever, and fatigue. As the CDC notes, before the vaccine, around four million people a year got chickenpox, with 10,600 a year hospitalized and 100 to 150 people dying as a result of the disease. Complications include dehydration, pneumonia, encephalitis, bacterial infections of the skin and soft tissues (particularly group A streptococcus), sepsis, and even toxic shock syndrome. Then there's the issue of shingles, where the virus persists in the nerve roots, to reemerge in adulthood, usually in middle or old age, to cause a painful syndrome involving blistering and open sores along the major nerve involved.

Fortunately, the vaccine is 98% effective if two doses are given. If the child has only had one dose, it's more like more like 85% effective.

In any case, Sarah Donovan made the decision not to vaccinate her child, and now she doesn't want to accept the consequences. Part of the deal if you don't vaccinate is that your child can be kept out of school if cases of the disease show up in school. It's to protect your child from your own irresponsible decision by keeping him away from a potential source of infection. She should have expected this. It's not as though the State of Michigan makes a secret of it. Indeed, its "Dear Parent/Guardian" letter to parents seeking a non-medical waiver for the school vaccine requirement states quite plainly:

Based on the public health code, a child without either an up-to-date immunization record, a certified nonmedical waiver form or a physician signed medical waiver form can be excluded from school/childcare.

The nonmedical vaccine waiver form, which Ms. Donovan must have signed, states explicitly:

A child who has been exempted from a vaccination is considered susceptible to the disease or diseases for which the vaccination offers protection. The child may be subject to exclusion from the school or program, if the local and/or state public health authority advises exclusion as a disease control measure.

Which is exactly what happened:

On Wednesday, Oakland County health officials and Birmingham Public Schools alerted parents about three confirmed cases of chickenpox in three schools in the district.

That day, they recommended parents of unvaccinated children keep those children at home until they were sure they had not been infected.

On Thursday, health officials grew more concerned after realizing that some unvaccinated students had "significant" contact with some of the infected students.

The school then told parents that unvaccinated children were not to return to school until April 14 — just after spring break and long enough that any new cases would have been detected.

It turns out that Donovan partially vaccinated her two older children, but apparently became antivaccine when Michael's older sister started exhibiting signs of autism. Yes, sadly, Donovan is another example of how the myth that vaccines cause autism has turned a parent antivaccine. Sure, Donovan also uses the "health freedom" argument and complains that people will know that she didn't vaccinate her son against chickenpox because he is being excluded from school, but that's the risk you take when you don't vaccinate. Also, if she didn't want more than just some of the kids and their parents at the school her son attends to know that she doesn't vaccinate, she shouldn't have decided to make a big deal out of it to the point where she agreed to be interviewed by the health and science reporter from one of the two largest local newspapers.

Overall, what I detect in Donovan is an overwhelming sense of entitlement. She doesn't want to vaccinate her children and signs a form that says she understands that the school can keep them home if local health officials deem it advisable to exclude unvaccinated children to protect them and for infection control. Then, when there are actually cases of a vaccine-preventable disease at the school that her son attends, and suddenly she's outraged that the health authorities have the temerity to send her son home. As one commenter noted:

The mom was happy with her choice until it had consequences. I also find it comical that she's complaining about the school violating her son's privacy, yet she had no problem having his name, school, and vaccination status in the newspaper.

I was actually surprised at the tenor of the comments. Usually, articles like that are flooded with flying monkeys dropping antivaccine poo on the comment thread. In this case, there were quite a few people with pro-science viewpoints taking Mrs. Donovan to task for her sense of entitlement and her unfortunate decision not to vaccinate her children.

Examples:

  • "How 'beyond not happy' would little Mikey feel if he contracted chickenpox from a classmate? Give me a break lady."
  • "No, the mom is being ridiculous. She is mad at the school system for keeping her child healthy. The school system takes no position on her vaccine beliefs. But at the same time the school refuses to actively and needlessly expose at-risk children to a serious illness."
  • "...we also know a lot more about disease and process then when "mom and dad were growing up". Autism, allergies and cancer existed then too. Now we know more about it so it is diagnosed far more. Except back then little Sally or Joey wasn't called Austistic they were labelled as special or different."
  • "Vaccinations have a pretty long, positive history of improving the health of the nation and the world. 'Blind Faith' in the medical community has nothing to do with it. Self centered publicity hound parents with an over-estimation of their importance and intelligence seem to be more at play here."

I must say, I was pleasantly surprised. Maybe there is some hope after all.

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Fun fact:

Chickenpox has many names in German, with a lot of regional variance. The most common name, however, literally translates as 'wind pox', because it spreads like the wind.

I had the damn thing when I was six. Those in my class that hadn't caught it already had it then. I think I was quarantined for two weeks. I remember feeling very miserable.

Damn. Sarah Donovan's going to need a glacier for those burns.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

It does seem to be an over-abundance of a sense of entitlement, doesn't it?

The anti-vax brigade will talk all day and night about their "right" not to vaccinate, but they'll never talk about the responsibility to prevent their child from either a) becoming infected with a disease they aren't vaccinated against (like not going to countries where diseases like measles are still endemic & returning to the states to start an outbreak) or b) being excluded from school for the sole reason not to be exposed (and thus getting sick - see (a) above).

Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 1905 is a great example of the interpretation of individual rights vs. public health - it is a decision that the anti-vaxers should understand before they spout off their nonsense.

To be fair "Based on the public health code, a child without either an up-to-date immunization record, a certified nonmedical waiver form or a physician signed medical waiver form can be excluded from school/childcare" might well be impenetrable officialese to many parents. It could easily (and probably should) be translated into something easier. "If there are cases in the school of a disease your child isn't vaccinated against, your child will not allowed to go to school" was my quick first attempt - I'm sure it can be improved upon.

By Peter English (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

I feel compelled to agree that allowing a child that has not been vaccinated in a school environment is both dangerous and reckless. By doing so, parents not only risk the health of their own children, but also that of their classmates. They have no right to make demands and demonstrate fits of righteous indignation when they were the ones who neglected the responsibility of looking after the health of their children.
15098550

By Hannah Nel (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Just had a piece about these types of restrictions in NEJM this past week (http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1501198). While the paperwork does state kids can be held out of school for being un- or underimmunized, more can and should be done to let people know about the disruption (and costs) their choice to opt out will make to their own lives, as well as the lives of others.

By Ross Silverman (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Peter English, all you need to do is insert "be" between "not" and "allowed", and "any" between "are" and "cases", and you have a clear sentence that even a schoolchild could understand.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Soccer moms know best. We should just have them run our medical and research programs. Problem solved....

It is rather amusing that Mrs. Donovan is complaining about something that she agreed to by signing the waiver. Maybe when she signed she thought, "Oh, that'll never happen." If she wants to exercise her right to leave her child vulnerable to disease, then she must also accept responsibility for that decision and the consequences that accompany it.

It's quite likely that Mrs. Donovan signed the form without reading it. There's a reason why lawyers tell you that's a bad idea, but it happens too often anyway. (Raise your hand if you have ever clicked an "I Agree" button on a piece of software without reading all the way through the EULA. I thought so.) There's also a reason why people in California have been trying to pass a law there requiring parents who opt for non-medical waivers to understand the consequences of what they are doing, and the counter-argument basically amounts to, "We don't want to know what's in the fine print."

By Eric Lund (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

She's probably more furious that it reduces the chances her son will actually get chickenpox, than at him missing school. After all, we know how much anti-vaxers love their "pox parties", and being educated is clearly not high on their priority list.

By Daniel Welch (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Here is what I do not get: "Donovan also uses the “health freedom” argument and complains that people will know that she didn’t vaccinate her son against chickenpox because he is being excluded from school"

Why is she worried about that other people would know that she did not vaccinate her son? If she believes that they are harmful shouldn't she be telling everybody in the hope of stopping people from vaccinating their kids. I guess I am ignorant and did not realize that "freedom" meant that I cant know what your beliefs are. /sarcasm

Comments roundup:

"Follow the money and corporate greed that influences clinical trials..."
-Steve Sandy appeals to Big Pharma

"Chicken pox kills less than 100 people each year. It's sad, but in a population of 300M plus, that's statistically insignificant."
-Chris Imirie plays the "it's not that dangerous card", comes off looking like a terrible person

"The flu is never fun, but it is also almost never dangerous. Chicken pox is the exact same way."
-then doubles down on misinformation

"...please google how CDC researchers fudged data on a significant link between MMR vaccine and autism."
-Mary Artemis plays the #CDCWhistleblower card

"...that most diseases nowadays are spread by the recently VACCINATED, NOT unvaccinated people."
-Leslie Leon-Cremeens makes either a vaccine shedding argument or a fails to understand simple statistics

"Traci Roundy DeMerchant Why can't her child go to school when those newly vaccinated, and shedding the live virus, are allowed to? Makes zero sense. Vaccines also do not provide immunity to a disease."
-Carolyn Ann explicitly makes a shedding argument and follows up a straight up lie

"Obesity kills around 400,000 people a year. How many people do chicken pox kill?"
-Ken McCauley makes an appeal to bigger problems (maybe he's the man behind our own zebra)

"She stressed that she's not against vaccinations but against requiring them." (from the article)
-Sarah Donovan herself swears she's not antivaccine

Fear not Orac, ignorance is alive and well.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Slightly off-topic, referring to your first paragraph:

The roller derby league i skate for and help run often runs contests to give away free tickets, wherein fans can take selfies with our posters around town. I wonder if someone could organize a similar online event where one can take selfies in front of infamous locations such as Burzynski's clinic, or other hotbeds of pseudoscience. Not sure what we could possibly win, except a perverse sense of self satisfaction ;)

By Double Shelix (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

GWD@12: "I guess I am ignorant and did not realize that “freedom” meant that I cant know what your beliefs are."

Well there's always HIPAA but public health measures take precedence over it if I understand correctly (IANAL). When people talk about health freedom I'm always reminded of a saying that people use to describe the GPL and free software "it's like free speech, not free beer." That being said, antivaxxers tend to not realize that the two are different so it's not the best argument.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Yep. Not feeling any sympathy for Mrs. Donovan.

Not only has she herself broadcasted her son's medical information far and wide, she's shown how ignorant and self-absorbed she is.

Your special snowflake isn't any more special than anyone else's, and you don't get to send him off to school to get sick, or get other children sick.

Screw you, lady.

Sorry, she doesn't get to fly the privacy banner since she agreed to talk to the newspaper. She may even have been the one to contact the newspaper.
Selfish selfish selfish.

The roller derby league i skate for and help run often runs contests to give away free tickets, wherein fans can take selfies with our posters around town. I wonder if someone could organize a similar online event where one can take selfies in front of infamous locations such as Burzynski’s clinic, or other hotbeds of pseudoscience. Not sure what we could possibly win, except a perverse sense of self satisfaction ;)

I do still have a few photos of myself taken in front of the Royal London Homeopathic Hospital from when I visited London in 2007. :-)

Concerning the privacy matter-

so why oh why did she allow the newspaper to include a PHOTO of both of them in addition to their names and location?

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Orac, the extra cab ride would have been worthwhile for you to get a selfie of yourself and Burzynski standing together outside in front of his clinic with your arms around each others' shoulders. Isn't Wakefied in Texas too? Next time, make a whole-day outing of it and get both of them.

@ Lurker:

Jake, Mikey and Alex Jones live there as well.

HOWEVER I think that Orac and these fellows being together in the same space might cause something of an intellectual nature approximately equivalent to a collision of matter meeting anti-matter.
We wouldn't want that.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

@SallyBR,

Thanks for sharing. That was a very well written article!

By squirrelelite (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

It would have been fun to see a photo of Orac and Stanley together at the Burzynski Clinic (I fly into and out of Texas occasionally and keep an eye out for selfie opportunities with Andy Wakefield).

Somehow I'm reminded of the back cover of Art Buchwald's autobiography, where he posed in front of one of 42d St.'s sleazier movie theaters (the huge sign on the marquee behind him read "Lust In The Flesh").

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Hannah Nel: "By doing so, parents not only risk the health of their own children, but also that of their classmates. "

To an anti-vax parent, other children don't exist. Other kids have parents who are doing everything wrong, and therefore, the family deserves autism,measles, chickenpox or whatever. Having no empathy is basically a prerequisite for being anti-vax.

I was thinking of writing a storyl where a kid with cancer and her family get driven out of a community when she writes a letter to the editor about wishing that she and her brother could go outside and that her (vaccinated) brother could talk and play with other kids- the community had such low rates that those two were the only vaccinated children. Sadly, such a tale would probably be mistaken for fact.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

To hell with the selfies, Double Shelix. I wanna see the Texas Quackers take on the Oracian All-Stars in f-ing Roller Derby! Without elbow pads! The Quackers would be the dirty villains, and the Oracians "young, fast and scientific"! (That's a 1960s professional wrestling reference.)

@ sadmar:

Or we could just do a dance off.

( safer. less wheels)

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Orac, the extra cab ride would have been worthwhile for you to get a selfie of yourself and Burzynski standing together outside in front of his clinic with your arms around each others’ shoulders. Isn’t Wakefied in Texas too? Next time, make a whole-day outing of it and get both of them.

Wakefield's in Austin, and Texas is a huge state. It's around 165 miles from Houston to Auston.

Isn’t Wakefied in Texas too?

He is, but Texas is big. According to my Rand McNally road atlas, it's 162 miles from Houston to Austin (which is where I think Wakefield et al. are) and 753 miles from Houston to El Paso (where IIRC at least one other person who has been featured on this blog works). For those of you on the East Coast, the latter distance will get you from Portland, ME, to somewhere in North Carolina. As amusing as that would be, I understand why Orac might not think it worth the trouble. Even Houston to Austin would be three hours each way (my atlas says the trip time is 2:50, but that assumes light traffic). And I agree with the Civil War era general who said, "If I owned both hell and Texas, I'd rent out Texas and live in hell."

By Eric Lund (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

PGP@26

I was thinking of writing a storyl where a kid with cancer and her family get driven out of a community when she writes a letter to the editor about wishing that she and her brother could go outside and that her (vaccinated) brother could talk and play with other kids- the community had such low rates that those two were the only vaccinated children. Sadly, such a tale would probably be mistaken for fact.

Even more sadly it's not terribly far from the truth. I think Orac has mentioned the story that was circulating in late January about Rhett the child in Marin County fighting cancer whose father was worried about their school's high exemption rate.

From the news story:

He told me he immediately responded, "In the interest of the health and safety of our children, can we have the assurance that all the kids at our school are immunized?"

He found out later from a friend that other parents who were present were "mad that you asked the question, because they don't immunize their kids."

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Maybe autism is caused by having stupid parents.

By darwinslapdog (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Cap'nkrunch: "Even more sadly it’s not terribly far from the truth. I think Orac has mentioned the story that was circulating in late January about Rhett the child in Marin County fighting cancer whose father was worried about their school’s high exemption rate."

That's where I got the idea. Any updates on that case, by the way? I hope they won't have to move, but they probably will. Anti-vax parents are one small step from pitchforks and torches.

darwinslapdog: That's not fair to 10% of the parents.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

darwinslapdog: That’s not fair to 10% of the parents.

I hope you mean 10% of anti-vaxxer parents, and not 10% of parents of children with autism. I will note that the comment you were replying to is a bit jerkish as well.

SarahBR: Excellent post about vaccines.

I'm definitely seeing many more comments about eliminating vaccine exemptions which are favorable to "our side".

Sarah Donovan got her 15 minutes of fame and I hope she's enjoying all the comments which rip into her reasons for not vaccinating her child.

Because one (or more) pictures are worth a thousand words....

http://www.immunize.org/photos/chickenpox-photos2.asp

Overall, what I detect in Donovan is an overwhelming sense of entitlement

Speaking as someone who grew up in Oakland County, isn't that par for the course for Birmingham residents?

Politicalguineapig@26:

Having no empathy is basically a prerequisite for being anti-vax.

My money's on pathological narcissism, with a side order of paranoid, all topped of with a generous heap of passive-aggressive.

"While the paperwork does state kids can be held out of school for being un- or underimmunized, more can and should be done to let people know about the disruption (and costs) their choice to opt out will make to their own lives, as well as the lives of others."

Why? Can't they figure that out for themselves?

By Katarina Witt (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

PGP@34
It sounded so familiar I was wondering if that was your inspiration. As far as updates go I found another story from mid-February and it looks like Rhett is dishing out some downright adorable insolence of his own. From the story:

"Soon we will say Gone with the Measles," he said. "My name is Rhett and I give a damn!"

Also, he's 7 now and it looks like he was doing well enough for his doctor's to be considering the measels vaccine. There's also a handful of news segments if you search his name on YouTube but nothing really new. I get the feeling his 15 minutes is up, which I'm fine with; I have mixed feelings about using an actual child as a posterchild even in defense of science. Maybe in 20 years* Orac will blog about some cutting edge research by the up and coming R Krawitt and I'll wonder why the name sounds familiar.

*Being a box of blinky lights I assume Orac is doomed to blog for eternity.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

SallyBR @19 -- Great article, and given that you're a food blogger it's likely to reach an audience that it very much should.

By palindrom (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

lilady@40
At the Detroit Free Press comment section there weren't many antivaxxers but they were loud, prolific, and as infuriatingly obtuse as ever (see my earlier comment for a nice sampling of the major antivax tropes as demonstrated by them) so the USA Today comments were refreshing to read. There's literally only two comments supporting "parent's choice" and one of them is terribly racist. Favorite one from a Bathazar Xavier:

headline should have read, "mom, furious over student sent home, announces to world she's stupid"

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

I had the chickenpox twice - once when I was (I assume) too young to develop immunity, and then again when I was in grade school. This was before kids were vaccinated for these things.

I've had chicken pox twice as well; once when young, once in high school. (And unfortunately the high school one spread a bit because one of our P.E. coaches had us switch shirts for a game at one point just one week before I started showing rashes, meaning I was already contagious.) I graduated from high school in 1986, before the vaccine became available.

Then chicken pox came around the University residence I was in. I remember one person going 'I've already had it, I'm immune'... and him looking rather less happy after I pointed out I'd had it twice.

By Jenora Feuer (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Yeah, it does happen (I guess more often than I thought) that one gets the chickenpox twice. I had it as a baby - apparently a pretty mild case - and then got it bad in kindergarten, '93 or '94, not long before the vaccine came out. There's the possibility of shingles to look forward to, too.

I had it twice as well. Once in preschool and then in second grade. Oddly enough my sister only got it when I was in second grade.

SallyBR@19
I have to admit that I was wary of your article (as I am with all links to self in comments) but you had me at, "Disclaimer #2: I am taking my gloves off". Well written and probably more accessible than most of Orac's stuff. Even more interesting (to me at least) were the comments there. Two things stood out to me:

1. Either you have a fantastic reader base or truly most people are pro-vaccine/science (probably both in this case ;). I think when reading about these attacks on science every day I become somewhat blind to the reality that this really is a minority position. A very vocal minority, but a minority nonetheless. Back in realityland I've only ever met 2 antivaxxers: one a 2nd or 3rd degree relative of my mother's friend and the other the mother of a patient.

2. Expanding on some points from 1, the SBM/skeptics blogging community might be more of an echo chamber than I recognize (maybe because that's more similar than is comfortable). One commenter, Gabi, said "If only we had more voices like Sally’s to advocate causes of this importance!" When I read that I thought, "really? But this is what everyone is saying. Orac makes these points once a week at least it seems like." On further reflection I realized that should actually read, "But this is what everyone I read is saying." I imagine most people have never heard of Orac, SkepticalRaptor, ScienceMom, the SBM guys etc and, at least for myself, that's easy to forget.

Note these are my own personal observations but I wonder if these mental traps are a somewhat common experience here since they seem rather easy to fall into.

P.S. a slightly modified version of this comment is cross posted at Sally's blog

P.P.S your recipe index looks amazing. Especially the braised lamb shanks Bartolini style. I've had a craving for lamb for a while and was on the lookout for a good recipe.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Chicken pox....Arrgghh!!!

I came down with the chicken pox at the age of 22, the vaccine came out less than a year later. Having the chicken pox in my 20s was a special kind of hell. The were itchy, but I would consider them more painful than anything.

I had the pox all over my body, including inside my mouth, tongue, throat and the bottom of my feet. I was feverish to the point of confusion. I could not eat or sleep. It also included vomiting and severe headaches. I was in pain, pretty much all over my entire body.

Yeah, those pox were a real peach. Deadly? Nope. A miserable existence for a solid month. Yes. And, I was young and otherwise healthy. I could not wait to get my kids vaccinated.

By AmyEpiPhD (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Well that makes up for me getting it never. One of y'all took my turn.

Did get vaccinated recently as job required occasional visits to pediatricians offices.

Doc looked shocked when I brought up I never had it, we considered doing a titer then decided no harm to go ahead and while we were at it I got 3 other shots to maximize my adjuvant poisoning. Tdap was due and with asthma and age needed one of the pneumonia ones and checking the what do teacher need schedule we added meningococcal to the mix.

I was sure the antivax readers here would be horrified as we laid it all out and documented which went where.

Got it as a kid and vaguely remember the miserable itching. I had titers drawn for pretty much everything when I was in paramedic school and found I wasn't immune to varicella, measles or rubella despite having chickenpox and being fully vaccinated. Pretty lucky to catch it then since not every program required all the titers and where I work now only required proof of vaccination.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

JP: " and then got it bad in kindergarten, ’93 or ’94, not long before the vaccine came out."

My kids all got chicken pox right after Halloween of 1994. Apparently my then four year old was infectious as we wandered around the local mall gathering treats, a local mall that is ten blocks from a pediatric hospital.

Even my fully beast fed six month old baby got it. Now as she is about to turn twenty one, she has a high chance of getting shingles. By the way, dealing with a baby that is covered with dozens of open itchy sores called pox is not something I would want anyone to go through.

By the way, dealing with a baby that is covered with dozens of open itchy sores called pox is not something I would want anyone to go through.

There is a reason for that old curse, "A pox on your house!"

I got the standard single infection, no-complications chicken pox. It was utter shite - being quarantined, not able to see my friends, itching, pox all over, hard to sleep, so hard NOT to pick at them - ugh ugh. If the vaccine had been available, I would have gotten it, as I had scientist parents who understood risk assessment and got me all of the then-available shots. I can't understand the mentality of anyone who would purposefully misunderstand information in order for their kid to go through that.

“I wasn’t vaccinated, and I don’t think it’s fair that I can’t go to school,” Michael, 11, said after his mother, Sarah, was called to the school to pick him up.

Well, there are plenty of kids don't exactly think it's fair that you're wandering around as an optional vector for VPDs...

By Roadstergal (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

I am one of four children and well had it at the same time. I pity my mom more now that I am a mother. I remember it as being one of the most intensely miserable two weeks of my life. My youngest sister was almost hospitalized, she was so ill. We all had fever, sores all over, itchy, miserable children. We went through bottles of calamine lotion and a huge box of oatmeal bath. My mom went hoarse with her admonition "Don't scratch!" repeated all day long. Awful. I also had shingles in my early thirties as well. I can testify to it being absolutely horrendously painful. The actual shingles rash I had wasn't that bad, about a half dozen spots covering an area about the size of a pack of gum on one side of my belly button. But the pain. Pain radiating from my spine all the way around that side. I couldn't stand clothing or anything to touch that side of my body for over a week. Thankfully acyclovir cleared it up and no lingering issues. I sent my parents out for the shingles vaccine immediately because no one needs that. Awful. I really hate this self centered anti-vax parents who want to parade their privilege. I mean really, if you could prevent the suffering of your child wouldn't you do it? I vaccinated mine happily with everything and am happy knowing that barring vaccine failure he is protected from the awful hell that was chickenpox.

Even my fully beast fed six month old baby got it.

I am really enjoying this typo. :D

By Roadstergal (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Thank you, capnkrunch!

I saw the comment on my blog and came here - I guess there is no way to stick this reply below yours, but better say thank you in the wrong spot than be rude, right?

glad you enjoy the post, I never include my links in comments because I find that a bit iffy, but decided that it was appropriate in this particular case...

The beast gotta eat

Kiiri: "I really hate this self centered anti-vax parents who want to parade their privilege. I mean really, if you could prevent the suffering of your child wouldn’t you do it?"

After seeing my kids suffer from it, because not only was the baby miserable the six year old was so sick he was wetting is bed, I think anyone who advocates letting a child get sick is a sadistic child hater. Plus a mom-hater, because there were a few weeks where I go no sleep.

Roadstergal:

Even my fully beast fed six month old baby got it.

I am really enjoying this typo

Oops, it is kind of amusing. Though it does adequately describe a parent who is up most of the night with a sick baby and washing bed linens.

By the way, I am also not fond of the argument that children who get breast milk are immune to diseases. It certainly did not work for my youngest, and while I was kind of crunchy I was not breastfeeding four and six year old kids!

JP: Well, those groups are pretty much one and the same.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Check out the USA Today article and the comments on Sarah Donovan’s refusal to vaccinate her child; 99 % of them are pro vaccine:

It makes me wonder whether USA TODAY is moderating the antivaccine posts away, actually.

Oh, well, everyone gird their loins to do battle. I'm sure Anne Dachel will see this story now that I've blogged about it and send her crew of flying monkeys for tactical air support to the Freep article and the USA TODAY reprint of it.

JP: Well, those groups are pretty much one and the same.

No they are not! A lot of anti-vaxxers - who knows, maybe most of them - may well be parents of autistic kids. But don't go telling me that most parents of autistic kids are anti-vaxxers, because it ain't so. You're also kind of sh*tting on people who go through a lot in terms of raising their kids through no fault of their own.

I was nanny to a girl with high-functioning autism (or possibly Aspergers, I think the differential diagnosis was kind of iffy) for a year when I was in college, actually. Her parents were great.

Denice: Con-artists know how to dance, sciency nerds (and even humanities nerds like m'self) not so much — though I'm guessing you can cut a rug. On the other hand, Orac looks like a sharp-elbow type I wouldn't want to guard in a pickup game (it's March!), not to mention him being from Detroit and all. And I fancy the desire factor is higher on the skeptic side — Orac would have more 'heart' in going at Burzynski than vice-versa. Thus, my imagination goes for theatrical contact sports.

But, to be serious about being funny, Abbie Hoffman being one of my heroes, I wouldn't mind seeing some actual anti-quack guerrilla theater / stunts / Yes-Men-type pranks wherever the woo-meisters do their thing. Creativity and humor are good PR, and the very-serious mein of the quacksters is ripe for satire.

sadmar, we have often enacted *virtual* guerrilla theatre @ RI primarily via the personage... uh, Lizardage of His Magniificent Lordship, Draconis Zeneca and our relationship to him...

We have often detailed our extravagant cocktail parties, yacht parties and key exchange parties because we are, of course,
TOTALLY immoral, lascivious sensualists who worship only our enshrined deities... the dollar, the pound and the euro.
AND luxurious luxury.

Thus we are entirely UNLIKE the martyred parents and humanitarian supplement entrepreneurs who have nary a thought for their own welfare because they are totally devoted to their children and/ or the whole human race.

Perhaps someday Draconis himself will step in and personally instruct you in the ways of shilldom and minionhood. ( May he reign forever!)

AS a little enticement, he will describe what gifts he gave to well-known shills and minions.( hint: I got Turner painting; can you imagine what he gave to Orac?)

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

JP,

I don't think most anti-vaxxers are parents of autistic kids - based on my own experience. I am friends with quite a few anti-vaxxers - some are not parents at all, they're just general woo fanatics. Others are just regular garden variety hippies who weren't vaxxed as kids themselves, so were antivax before they had their own kids. I think sometimes that the SBM community overestimate the impact of the autism scare on antivax opinions. My antivax friends are all that way for a variety of reasons that can't be put down to just being scared of their kids getting autism.

(I've been friends with these people for a long time - mostly since childhood. I didn't become friends with them recently, and I find it hard to ditch their friendship based on this issue... however as I moved away, I'm glad we don't live close enough for our kids to play together much)

Have had the pox 3 times and shingles twice (not even 50 yet)
I brought it home from nursery school and infected both siblings. Mom said I had the mildest case, my brother had it bad but my baby sister got a case of scarlettina spots in between the pox blisters. Good times!

My oldest caught the pox and gave them to me for the second go around, we both had what I was told were mild cases. The hell you say! That was no mild suffering we went through.

8 mos after my youngest was born was round 3 for me,round 2 for the then 4.5 year old and a really bad case for the baby. We missed the release of the new varicella vaccine by only a handful of months.

The shingles outbreaks have also been what the doctor called mild cases both times tho I can't imagine how much worse the pain could have been either time.

Any idiot that chooses that for their children out of some ridiculous fear should have some serious DFCS oversite until their children are old enough to make the decision for themselves.

A pox on your house indeed!

By LurkeyLoo (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

I do still have a few photos of myself taken in front of the Royal London Homeopathic Hospital from when I visited London in 2007. :-)

It's now called the Royal London Hospital for Integrative Medicine -- no surprises there.

I know because the last time I went to the British Museum I took a detour to visit the place. I had intended to find a quiet alleyway and piss up against the building, on the principle that subsequent rainfall and the vibration of passing lorries would make my contempt ever more potent, but they cleverly cancelled the power of my magic piss by the change of name.

By Rich Woods (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

@Denice #65:

hint: I got Turner painting

Damn you! I had dibs on that!

I suppose I should have abased myself lower. Maybe flensed the flesh from between my metacarpals too, the closer to approximate His Scaly Claws.

By Rich Woods (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

@ Rich Woods:

NO, you should have gone ahead and done it:
as it frequenty- uhm, ALWAYS rains and thus, that water would retain the memory of the place's former configured appellation and your contempt would find its appropriate targetted home
be

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

@ Rich Woods:

Ha ha, we crossed paths! Have to stop meeting this way!

-btw- which Turner do you want? Burning of Parliament?

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

capnkrunch@ 41

Glad to see that news story you linked to inferred antivaxers are "the bad guys".

I developed lifelong heart problems as a result of Chicken Pox.I had cardiac and immune complications from the initial infection,and nearly died.Yeah mito will do that to you.Had shingles in my thirties,not once,but twice.Once severe,once fairly mild.I was not able to get the vaccine at the time because I was "too young".I would really like to see the shingles vaccine offered as an option to adults of all ages,not just those over 65.

By Roger Kulp (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

@JP as a pro-vax*, non-stupid parent of an autistic kid, thanks for sticking up for us.

*I will admit my 14yo autistic son has not had Gardasil, because it is 3 doses a month apart and it takes at least 4 adults to give him a shot, probably more now that he's had a growth spurt. I lie across his upper body and have a death grip on the non-shot arm (a few years ago he wormed that arm between out bodies and grabbed the syringe, bending the needle 30 degrees, I'm terrified if he does that again it will break off in his arm), my husband all but sits on his legs, one nurse uses two hands to hold his arm still, while the other darts in with the shot, all while he yells NONONONONONONONONO. It is a horrific experience for all of us.

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

@Denice #70,71:

Thank you. I shall definitely keep your advice in mind the next time I feel the need to micturate in London. Which is often.

Both of the Burning of Parliament pieces are superb works, even if only as a reminder that the legislature needs a kick up the proverbial from time to time. There's currently a lot of talk about relocating Parliament because -- let's face it -- there's no longer enough room in the Palace of Westminster for them all to both hang their swords and fiddle their expenses with due decorum.

My personal Turner favourite is Dutch Boats In A Gale. To my mind it's the perfect combination of sea, storm and light. And, if I remember correctly, it's big enough that I barely have a wall in my house which could accommodate it. But, you know, if you're going to have a piece dominate everything, you should do it properly...

Anyway, if you could see your way to dropping it in the post, I'd be much obliged. I may even offer up my spare kidney to a ravenous youngling in gratitude.

By Rich Woods (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

-btw- which Turner do you want? Burning of Parliament?

Currently at the Getty Museum as part of a travelling Tate exhibition. Or perhaps it's a very good copy.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Actually, I was worship... um... OBSERVING several of his paintings this past Saturday.

A few years ago, I managed to photograph a painting of his in a place where you aren't supposed to photograph: very carefully sneaking around and then, the flash went off, broadcasting my activities across the adjacent galleries. I'm SURE someone saw but they said nothing. I didn't get in trouble.

I made postcards of it and send them to those I know who have the wits to appreciate it. There's a boat in it. No fires.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

@Emma Crew:

Ah, yes. The girl I was nanny to was a very sweet and interesting kid, but when she was overstimulated for long enough - like, say, after she'd had to keep it together at school all day and then something didn't go her way in the evening - she would just sort of snap and throw these screaming, flailing tantrums. She took after her dad and was pretty tall for her age and strong in a wiry way, so it could be something to handle. I'd basically have to make sure her 5-year-old brother was nowhere nearby, including physically moving him if need be - she evidently once knocked him down the stairs - and then try to get her to calm down, maybe holding on to her physically until she was able to chill out. It was not easy.

(Her parents were both working and finishing graduate programs in Seattle that year.)

A few years ago, I managed to photograph a painting of his in a place where you aren’t supposed to photograph: very carefully sneaking around and then, the flash went off, broadcasting my activities across the adjacent galleries. I’m SURE someone saw but they said nothing. I didn’t get in trouble.

You are very lucky you were not in a Russian museum. Those old ladies would have chewed you OUT, man. I once got a lecture about standing too close to a painting that went on for a good 5 or 10 minutes, including being informed that I obviously didn't really know how to appreciate art in the first place.

@ JP:

I don't usually try to photograph anything in museums but this was the exception that proves the rule.
AND it is one b!tching photograph.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

God, Orac; You are wordy.

Has enyone got advice for rapid dissolution of teeth? Several months ago, I surmised it as just another symptome of ' naso pharengeal cancer' -- I was apparently incorrect, though the dentist implies it is the most rapid desruction he has ever seen.

I'm terribly peaved that GlaxoSmithKline bought out the product which produces hydroxylapatite so that now the dentist wants to 'remineralize' with floride... Actually, the teeth are now destroyd and six crowns are prescribed.

My vitamin kick may have contributed as I would break open the capsules and take small portions; My halting wet snuff may have reduced the ph of my mouth; Help!!

God, Orac; You are wordy.

Then don't read. It's as easy as that.

But, of course, you do read. You can't resist. So wordiness is not an issue, particularly given that this post wasn't exactly one of my longer ones. You just like to whine.

@ emma crew. There are ways of helping that problem. No magic but carefully planned exposure to approximations of the medical appointments can make visits much easier. Email me at bahearn@necc.org and I will send you some resources for preparing for medical procedures.

I have the world's smallest violin for AV complaining their children are being sent home for a few weeks. I had measles encephalitis at 4 months old and as a consequence had uncontrolled severe febrile seizures leading to repeated status epilepticus and couldn't be vaccinated (protocol at the time). My family had to take many precautions to try to keep me safe, away from germy kiddies. Even my schooling was delayed for over a year in hopes my seizures would resolve themselves as childhood seizures often do at 5-6 years old(mine at 7 years).

I had chicken pox at 7 years old. It was the first illness I wasn't hospitalized but I remember being back in my parents' room. I'd only just moved into my own after sleeping in a crib in theirs — just in case I had a seizure.

By Harriet Huestis (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

But, of course, you do read. You can’t resist.
True, that... I really, really suspect more and more that i'm 'fucked in the head'.

Then don’t read. It’s as easy as that.

I can't. you are cruel to rub that in -- Have you ever treated *male* breast cancer? I only ask because I seem to have much weird stuff going on. I am currently without a GP and bills are piling up -- *I don't know what it is but I know a few more things that it is not*

Kay Marie @50 My younger brother had chickenpox when he was about 6 - I did not get sick at all. Fast forward to me pregnant at 27 - a girl in my workplace came down with suspected chickenpox. I was tested and the blood work came back that I was well and truly immune. I had the good fortune to be working in a Pathology lab - our resident Virologist recounted the fact that 75% of people who cannot remember having had chickenpox will be immune due their infection being sub-clinical. Funnily enough, when my eldest child came down with chickenpox at age 4 before the vaccination was on the schedule, my 2 year old daughter also did not catch it. I had her vaccinated shortly afterwards, so never knew her immune status to the CP.
As an aside - I was immunized against rubella as a 14 year old, as per the Australian schedule for girls in the early 80's. Boys were not. As a result, my husband was part of a rubella epidemic hitting the 18 - 30 year old men in my part of the world in the mid 1990's . They were in the window before the vaccine schedule changed to be given at 12 months old.
He suffered for a few days with crippling joint pain - and the rash was textbook. (Bloodthirsty tech that I was - his few extra stolen vials boosted our positive IgM control sera stash!!! )

By janerella (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

JP: A lot of anti-vaxxers – who knows, maybe most of them – may well be parents of autistic kids. But don’t go telling me that most parents of autistic kids are anti-vaxxers, because it ain’t so. You’re also kind of sh*tting on people who go through a lot in terms of raising their kids through no fault of their own.

It's hard to gauge whether it's a majority or a minority of parents of autistic kids who are also anti-vax. Again, when one side's vastly louder, the loud side should be regarded as a majority, no matter what the actual numbers are. I will say that while I'd like to be supportive of my friends if they have kids, autistic or not, I'd always be waiting for the time when they turn into narcissistic monsters, like most of the anti-vax club. (they're kinda doomed by demographics, I'm afraid.)

And I should point out that I support all the parents who are doing the best they can, the ones who remain sensible, and I have nothing at all against the kids. Heck, some of the autistic people I know are better educated than I am.

Also, to add my own chicken pox story, I'm the eldest of three and we all got it at the same time. I think I was about four or five, so my brother would have been one and my sister would be two. (They're two years apart, brother was born in summer, she was born in fall.) I'm sure it was nightmarish for both my parents. And then, at about twenty-five or so, I got Bell's palsy. A classic case, quickly cleared up- but my cheekbones still ache when I'm cold, and listening to live music that's heavy on the synthesizers is hell.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

"I’ve had chicken pox twice as well; once when young, once in high school."
Wow! Double the risk, and you are still alive to blog about it. How do you explain that? How young were you? Perhaps you were misdiagnosed.

Have you taken the vaccine since it became available?

You do realize that the milder "cowpox", like chickenpox, was used to wipe out deadly smallpox, don't you? Perhaps we don't want to wipe out chickenpox. Never know what mutant diseases may lie ahead....

By Toto "The Rock" (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Again, when one side’s vastly louder, the loud side should be regarded as a majority, no matter what the actual numbers are.

What? Why? That doesn't make any sense.

I will say that while I’d like to be supportive of my friends if they have kids, autistic or not,

I'll say the same thing too, although I recognize that having kids can change one's life in ways one hadn't anticipated. I was up in Chicago visiting some friends a while back, and the lady of the two asked me if I was still going to come visit once they had kids, and I said "Of course, if you're still going to want my depraved self hanging around for a week at a time once you have kids."

I’d always be waiting for the time when they turn into narcissistic monsters, like most of the anti-vax club.

What? Why? Do you know any people who have kids? I'd say it typically makes people less narcissistic, if anything, although perhaps more busy with all the adult responsibilities.

(they’re kinda doomed by demographics, I’m afraid.)

What does that even mean?

"I lie across his upper body and have a death grip on the non-shot arm (a few years ago he wormed that arm between out bodies and grabbed the syringe, bending the needle 30 degrees, I’m terrified if he does that again it will break off in his arm), my husband all but sits on his legs, one nurse uses two hands to hold his arm still, while the other darts in with the shot, all while he yells NONONONONONONONONO. It is a horrific experience for all of us."
Your child "gets it."
He knows he is being HARMED!
Watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a52vAx9HaCI

By Toto "The Rock" (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

You are very lucky you were not in a Russian museum. Those old ladies would have chewed you OUT, man.

A few years ago when the Frau Doktorin was visiting the Hermitage, a few of the watchdog babushkas had dozed off in their chairs, so she photographed them instead.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

@Herr Doktor

I managed to take photographs in the Amber Room of the Catherine Palace, where photography is strictly forbidden (because of the flashes) and the window blinds are drawn to protect the amber from sunlight. I'd switched my flash off and, with my camera hanging against my chest I let it do its autofocus thing. They didn't turn out too badly, but two was all I dared to take.

I also got a beautiful shot of the babushkas all seated ten yards apart along a long palace corridor, each one framed through the doorway of each subsequent room. It was like Russian dolls in 2D!

Anyway, off topic a bit. Sorry.

By Rich Woods (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Anyway, off topic a bit. Sorry.

Oh, we never go off topic here.

It’s hard to gauge whether it’s a majority or a minority of parents of autistic kids who are also anti-vax.

It isn't hard at all when it's been repeatedly pointed out to you. Just own the fact that you are a myopic bigot already.

Again, when one side’s vastly louder, the loud side should be regarded as a majority, no matter what the actual numbers are.

Holy hell how can you be that obtuse?

By Science Mom (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

"Your child “gets it.”
He knows he is being HARMED!"

This is why you should always bite hell out of the dentist.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

This is why you should always bite hell out of the dentist.

That's unfortunately topical for today -- I'm getting two molars ground down to be crowned. But as a benefit I get rid of some mercury amalgam fillings, so I'm sure my health will improve enormously!

/sarcasm

By palindrom (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

@sadmar #27:

Now you make me want to organize an exhibition derby match at an ACS or other scientific conference! I bet there's enough of us who do both that we could get the minimum number of players.

Who wants to ref?? :D

By Double Shelix (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

@Tim --

I'm sorry you're having a tough time with your health.

JP: Because the louder side gets listened to and they get funding. There's a reason Autism Speaks and Age of Autism are well known and ASAN isn't.
As far as the friends go, most of them are white middle-class suburbanites. Age of Autism is almost entirely white, and mostly suburban. As a rule, white middle class people tend to sign their kids up for preschool the second they're out of the womb, and throw fits when the kid isn't perfect. They also tend to delay childbearing, which plays into the 'perfect kid or bust' paradigm.
I'm hardly a bigot, since I support sensible parents and autistic kids without reservation. But we should recognize that a whole lot of parents get their brains eaten by the propaganda that the anti-vax brigade spits out.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

But we should recognize that a whole lot of parents get their brains eaten by the propaganda that the anti-vax brigade spits out.

I would hardly call less than 2% of parents in any way a majority, whether they're loud or not.

As far as the friends go, most of them are white middle-class suburbanites. Age of Autism is almost entirely white, and mostly suburban. As a rule, white middle class people tend to sign their kids up for preschool the second they’re out of the womb, and throw fits when the kid isn’t perfect. They also tend to delay childbearing, which plays into the ‘perfect kid or bust’ paradigm.

Wait a minute, you even judge (or, like, judge in advance) your friends because they fit into a category that you've given a blanket condemnation? If people are your friends, don't you reckon that you know them, and have some idea of their character? Come on.

I mean, you could also try making friends with people who aren't (or don't aspire to be) white middle class suburbanites, just for the heck of it.

"As a rule, white middle class people tend to sign their kids up for preschool the second they’re out of the womb, and throw fits when the kid isn’t perfect. "

There is a small subset of suburbanites that fit that but they usually aren't the middle class. More typically I find they are the top crust of the upper middle class if not smack in the middle of the upper class.

Usually the ones that I've met like that will spend a significant amount of time trying to convince me that $260,000 is the median family income of the US and barely enough to make ends meet rather than making them thisclose to being in the 1%. That group, IMO often lives in their own little bubble and you really can't generalize their attitudes and behaviors to the vast majority of middle America.

Even then I've found plenty of people in those communities who are realistic, down to earth, self-aware, generous of spirit and just a bemused by the narcissistic oneupsmanship of their neighbors as the rest of us.

Sometimes PGP really hits that rescue the animal button on me and I just want to snatch them away from the hell they are stuck in.

I am in agreement , KayMarie. A little bubble indeed.

I've lately been contemplating a writing project about this.

It appears that a sizeable portion of adults may live what others would call 'odd lives'- they don't fit into common descriptions, bizarre events have happened to them, they work in niches that most people don't know exist, they have odd views or fit into a minority class of some sort.

Many of my closest cohorts belong in this category. So what!

One of the advantages of living in or near a large city is that there are enclaves of these not-run-of-the-mill variants everywhere you cast your eye.

PGP lives in the same place as that from which a musician- well known for his uniqueness- originates. He lets his freak flag fly mightily and it has earned him wealth, fans and even, respect. I'm of course referring to Prince. First of all, he's black/ etc in whiteyville, he follows his own style sense and invents his own music. He could be an icon of sorts. I hear he's funding a project to teach minority kids how to code.

I've continually advised our sister, PGP, to 'get out more' and meet people amenable to her own particular brand of being. Who knows? Musicians, martial artists, punk rockers, writers, sceptics ,hipster artists, grad students, chefs. designers, gay people.... even . bird watchers.. Why not.

Visit other cities known for their avant garde, their scene, style or edginess. The US has a few. Then there's Europe. Universities attract people like this of all ages.

There's an entity I refer to as the 'deadly suburb', which exists even further away in small towns as well: these may be virtual paradises for those whose lives revolve around parenthood, young children and home life. Be that as it may, but these are not easily workable for young adults and singletons of all ages. One visible warning sign of these blasted places is the presence of .... craft shops. That's what women do when they are bored because there is not much else arund except shopping malls. They exude the scent of nostalgia for a time of more rigid social roles and stereotypes. Perhaps this makes some people feel more comfortable in an unstable world but frankly, I don't pine for the years gone by.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

Thx ann #100

I do have tendencies to imagine illnesses in myself which have usually played out to be nothing. Perhaps, these last nine months, I've *worried myself to death* with an added bonus of self-fullfilling prophecy that has manifested as destruction of my teeth.

However, I would like to hear the 'straight dope' on why *Novamin* is not available in the US. Glaxxo (who bought the patent) seemed to imply that FDA had a problem with the word "repair". And yet, their world-renowned product Sensodyne Repair and Protect is rolled out in the united states but contains stannous fucking fluoride.

I'm a day late and a dollar short, as they say:: If I had looked with a mirror and recognized what was happening on the backside of those teeth even three months ago I could have purchased the remineralization fix. The fix that Amazon and Ebay now refuse to ship.

All brands of toothpaste with the bioglass minus fluoride have folded.

I could be wrong but I'm getting the idea that tooth 'dentin' does, in fact, grow. The dentin lattice induces the concentration of Hydroxylapatite (enamel). Of course, it won't grow if poisoned with fluoride.

I found this neat gum, Spry, which stimulates saliva and also contains xylitol; The problem is it also contains glycerine which prevents the saliva naturally remineralizing the teeth.

Hell, I can't even put my fingers on some simple PH test strips to see that my spit is not battery acid -- The dentist did a pretty good, quick impersonation of being without knowledge on saliva ph or the testing thereof. I am aware they can be purchased online and several pharmacies offered to order me some but, dayam, didn't they used to be in everyone's medicine cabinate?

n the last few weeks, GlaxoSmithKline finally (and relatively quietly) began the sale of its renowned Sensodyne Repair & Protect toothpaste in the United States, and if you think maybe I am going to write one of those good news/bad news stories, I am not. There is no good news here and I have scratched a bald spot in my wrinkled gray scalp over the past five days trying to make sense of GSK’s decision.

http://ceramics.org/ceramic-tech-today/biomaterials/gsk-drops-ball-with…

even in the frozen north there have always been odd ducks. We bought our farm from a man (now deceased) who'd grown up on the property and really never been more than 50 miles away. Turns out he was a well known cross dresser and was often seen on his tractor in his mother's slip and opera gloves. His wife didn't have any problem with this and neighbors (JW's no less), who grew up around him, all said "Yeah, that's just who he was. We didn't think anything about it."

Takes all kinds.

and my DD, who lives on an island off the coast of AK, was recruited for a roller derby team by a couple of different local eccentrics. Very funny because she'd never skated before. But she's got her official name and number now and it's fun to watch the videos.

Usually my warning sign for the deadly burbs is when the commercial properties like fast food joints usually known for some iconic coloration or architectural style have to conform to the community standards for allowed paint colors and signage.

Not that it is really any better for the entrepreneurs. Try planting a retro shiny diner in the middle of one of the beige planned communities.

Minneapolis (homeland of Prince) is actually a pretty cool city, as is its twin neighbor. Good bookstores and drinking establishments abound, anyway, which is one of the first things I tend to notice about cities.

I have been a huge Prince fan for a long time, and the fact that he's a Jehovah's Witness does give me a sad, probably because of some mixture of my own personal history with JWs, a feeling that the cult doesn't really seem to suit/fit him, and because, I mean, now I'll never get to sleep with him.

Michael Jackson was raised a Witness, too, actually. (Prince was raised Seventh Day Adventist, then became a Witness after his mom died - she apparently told him she wanted him to on her deathbed or something.) My advisor and I were chatting in my office a few years back, and I mentioned that my mom is a Witness, and he sort of gaped at me all slack-jawed: "You're a Jehovah's Witness?"
"No, my mom is. I never even considered myself one." And then I mentioned tangentially that MJ was raised a Witness as well...
"Well, hey, man, you and Michael Jackson."
"Me and Michael Jackson what?"
"You got soul."

Re: suburbs: I'd honestly rather live in some little Bumblef*ck, middle-of-nowhere type place than in a wealthy suburb. Depending on the region, there'll at least be some biological diversity - flora and fauna and whatnot. Suburbs are just dead and, like, existentially crushing.

I mean, I'd really rather live in a city over either environment, at least most of the time I think so, but suburbs are like the worst of both worlds.

Is Scienceblogs running an essay contest on "Oddballs I have Known?" HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !
You have been eating waaay too many glyphosate fries....

By Toto "The Rock" (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

@ JP:

Of course, as fate would have it, I could- if I so chose- blend seamlessly into those tight and white h3lls of glowering, self-satisfied perfectionism based entirely upon insipid mediocrities and advertising copy that crushes independent spirits like any unruly rebellious weed that dare disrupt their immaculately maintained preternaturally green lawns.

Both my late father and I had/have a certain to-the-manor-born appearance and demeanor as well speaking quite admirably well which impresses a particular segment of society immensely. I'm very white and have good posture, I'm nearly thin. I look extremely good in business clothing.

If I tamed my hair, no one would ever guess

Actually one of my gentlemen is even better at this ruse than I am. You should see what he's like behind closed doors- for one thing, every other word is f@ck.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

If I had looked with a mirror and recognized what was happening on the backside of those teeth even three months ago I could have purchased the remineralization fix.

Nothing's going to "fix" any but the most superficial decay, and that includes 45S5. The Man isn't suppressing Recaldent, BTW, if you're too dense to use a fluoride-based toothpaste and see a dentist every six months in the first place.

@PGP:

It’s hard to gauge whether it’s a majority or a minority of parents of autistic kids who are also anti-vax.

Sociology research: how does that work?

@Toto:

You have been eating waaay too many glyphosate fries….

That explains it -- Toto's been doing it wrong! Toto, you're supposed to put the glyphosate solution on the potato plants, and then much later fry the potato tubers. You're not supposed to fry the glyphosate directly!

By justthestats (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

KayMarie @110: I can think of one place where the "conformation requirement" actually makes sense (even for the Safeway), but that's the tiny town of Leavenworth, WA, which pretends to be a Bavarian Village to get tourists. (It's a lovely little spot between Seattle and Eastern Washington, great hiking). All non-road signs must be carved and painted wood.

Concord, MA, on the other hand just has an enormous (historical!) stick up its rear.

By JustaTech (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

Toto@89: In case you are listening, and not just talking: chicken pox is in a totally different family of viruses from smallpox and "cowpox". Chickenpox is much more closely related to herpes. That's why it does that lovely thing of coming out from hiding in your nerves to attack you later in life as shingles.

I actually participated in a study of concurrent viremia of vaccinia and any herpes virus. So at least I won't get smallpox!

By JustaTech (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

@BA #82 he actually does quite well with most doctor visits, just cannot stand needles. I was the same way as a kid, so I get where he's coming from. The first time I didn't pitch a fit when getting a shot I was in 7th or 8th grade and a boy from school I had a crush on was in the waiting room.

@Bacon #97 Now that we give him Valium beforehand, he's great at the dentist's office (and he goes every 3 months).

I will just continue to roll my eyes at the yappy dog. Kiddo has been strange since birth, none of that "OMG vaccines!" in this camp.

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

Science Mom@96
I remember a little bit ago the topic of nurses being prone to woo came up and PGP made some really offensive (both about women and nurses in general) comment to the point that Orac himself stepped in and PGP still failed to see what he said wrong. I wouldn

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

...wouldn't hold my breath. Dang tricky submit button.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

Narad #115 -- Perhaps The Man isn't suppressing Recaldent because it is worthless for growing dentin if that dentin is killed by fluoride.

The milk protein, casein phosphopeptide, induces rapid growth of dentin. The lattice of dentin accepts the calcium sodium phosphosilicate whereby the composing elements are secreated in saliva -- I *think* there is a hormone that encourages that deposition there; I also *think* that metabolic imbalance including parathyroid hormone or parathyroid-like chemicals can cause dissolution.

Teeth can grow; a 'super eruption' growing up to fill the void from the missing opposing tooth surface contact is purported to be bad.

Someone please show me why this *45S5 glass* is a big no no in the US or why Amazon/Ebay are refusing to ship it though it is not exactly 'Schedule x prohibited'.

Make it good, pharma shills; I'll believe the valid argument just as much as why cannabis stayed verboten.

Dentin killed by fluoride?

Um . . . well, that's a new angle, I have to admit. I have yet to hear a fluoride wacko suggesting that dentin is alive, and the fluoride kills it. Does it perhaps also kill the chitin of the fingernails or the hair?

(Dentin does grow after tooth emergence, but it's like hair in that it's not properly alive. And it isn't made out of spit. It's made by living cells in the pulp.)

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

I often have the impression that I don't live in the same world as a commenter. Normally they are anti-vaxxers or serious woosters.

The descriptions above about what suburbs and the people who live in them are like are so alien to my experience that I have to conclude that I don't live in those commenters' worlds either.

Oh, I'm sure there are plenty of nice people in suburbs; it's the burbs themselves I find depressing, therefore I don't really hang out there. Not having a car kind of cinches it. So:

I have to conclude that I don’t live in those commenters’ worlds either.

I mean, in a fairly literal sense, yeah, you're probably right.

. And it isn’t made out of spit. It’s made by living cells in the pulp.

I have great respect for you, Calli Arcale. Please allow us both to synergistically redress what I have proposed. Teeth are alive, until they are not.

Tim,

Personally, I'm fond of fluoride, but if you seriously want to avoid it, and you live someplace with fluoride in the water, you can buy water that isn't, or make distilled water in your very own kitchen. Unfluoridated toothpaste is also readily available. In fact, I make a point to check labels, because I like Tom's of Maine makes some of the only toothpaste flavors I find tolerable, but they also make several unfluoridated toothpastes. Fortunately for both of us, the Tom's varieties without fluoride say so clearly on the box. (As a side note, though what you'll find in toothpaste these days isn't stannous fluoride but sodium fluoride, in case you were worried about the tin.)

Vicky, I have lately taken to making a 70-mile round trip to obtain well water.

Narad, I have grown quite fond of your writing. However, I must object to the admonishion to fluoridate. Conspiracy theory aside, I more and more find that what is ubiquitous and imposed is invariably detrimental.

I hope the mom realises that the school is only trying to protect the child, his family and also the school. If the child would have gotten infected with chickenpox, there is still a change that this child could be one of the 100 to 150 people that died of chickenpox. The mother then would have sued them bankrupt if her child died. Does she not realise the consequences of her decision or is she just seeking for attention?

By Lize Claassen … (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

@ LW:

Occasionally, hyperbole is enlisted in the service of jest.
I thought talking about craft shops would give me away.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

Looks like Tim's getting into the spirit of April Fool's Day.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

The human race survived for millions of years without fluoridated water, so obviously it's not necessary.

Ditto vaccines, antibiotics, sterile surgical technique, clean water, clothes and the Internet.

Back to basics, people!

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

"Vicky, I have lately taken to making a 70-mile round trip to obtain well water."

I presume you've had that water tested, since most well water is naturally high in fluoride. Higher than surface water; in some places, it's so high that cities remove some of it before distribution (since indeed, too much fluoride isn't a good thing).

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

@Dangerous Bacon:
The human race also survived for millions of years without lines down the center of the road that The Man won't let you cross. Obviously they are detrimental and should be removed or at least ignored.

By justthestats (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

I liked the comments espousing the whole 'medical science has been wrong about so much' schtick - sure, better to just make those decisions on your own and see what happens. I wonder how frequently people with no relevant education or experience whatsoever have been right about treatment and prevention of disease?

So many shills here for Big Organic...

Of course, I'm sure Mom would have no problem with the school if her kid got chicken pox at school...

@GWD
"Donovan also uses the “health freedom” argument and complains that people will know that she didn’t vaccinate her son against chickenpox because he is being excluded from school”

This sounds good to me. I really would not want to have an unvacinated child who may have been exposed to chickenpox playing with my children or visiting a house where there is someone with immune deficiencies.

We can look on it a bit like giving a leper a bell to ring;
Stay away, stay away.

I got chickenpox at the age of 18 as a Christmas present from my older sister who assured us that her doctor said she was nolonger contagious when she and her husband came to visit us just before Christmas. What fun!

By jrkrideau (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

This is timely; we just got the prior-to-seventh-grade letter from the school reminding us of the vaccines required for that grade level. My daughter is less than thrilled, but at least this time I've got an extra weapon -- one of the vaccines she needs this year is meningococcal, and I had meningitis when I was 4. I will describe it for her in great detail so she knows exactly why she's getting that vaccine. ;-)

It was awful. Well, I liked the last few days, when I was no longer contagious (but not yet well enough to go home) and was allowed to go to the hospital's play room. They had a bathtub full of soap bubble solution, and cube-shaped bubble wands, though I was quite disappointed that they didn't really produce square bubbles. But the first part of my stay was all fuzzy. I remember . . . bits. Hallucinations. Terror. A stupendously bad headache. Isolation, except I didn't realize the unconscious girl on the other side of the transparent isolation barrier couldn't hear me (I thought we'd become friends and played together, but of course that would have been impossible).

You need to protect your children. If you cannot or will not do it by vaccination, for whatever reason (and there are totally legit reasons not to vaccinate), then you must quarantine.

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

@Denice (#114):

Well, I could probably pull off that drag act myself, if I really wanted to, but I have no interest in it. I spent some of my formative years being forced into a good-Jehovah's-Witness-girl act/drag show, which was fairly soul-crushing, and I am no longer interested in any sort of charades, unless they are strictly for fun or art.

Like I said, though, I don't have any particular animosity toward people who choose to live in the 'burbs - I wouldn't say they're all mediocrities or anything, necessarily. I'm sure some very smart and talented people may be found there.

It's the suburbs - or most of them - themselves that I just don't get. I personally don't understand the appeal of living in housing tract with people who are all pretty much my same race, income level, age cohort, etc. Especially in one of those places where the houses literally all look the same - it's like a late-Capitalist version of Kruschev-era Soviet apartment blocks. And, I mean, there aren't even any whitetail deer, coyotes, owls, black bears, etc., to encounter.

So I basically think that (most) suburbs are aesthetic, cultural, and ecological disasters, but I should stop holding forth, I suppose, before I come off as a moralizer. Who the f*ck am I, Wendell Berry?

I am no fan of the suburbs--I happily lived for 25 years in Manhattan, and the subway is part of my natural habitat--but they do contain coyotes and whitetail deer.

It turns out that the standard American suburb, with the bits of woodland backing up to lawns, is wonderful habitat for those deer. As for coyotes, almost all of the remaining coyote-free counties in the United States are in Hawaii. They haven't yet made it to New York's Long Island (they'd need to cross on rather long bridges) but I suspect it's only a matter of time; there are certainly coyotes in the other suburban counties around New York City, as well as in Manhattan and the Bronx.

To be fair, my "hey, cool, wild animal" experiences have mostly been in the city, but a lot of that is because I spend most of my time in the city: those red-tailed hawks would be as happy in a suburban as an urban park. Manhattan is at a busy/narrow point on the Great Eastern Flyway, so I occasionally got to see things like loons while walking in my old neighborhood, but that's not because it's a city. That's physical geography, and has been true since the days when that island was a place the locals came through on hunting trips or to gather shellfish, not a town.

Yeah, I do remember deer traipsing through our yard in Olympia WA, on occasion; it's a small city and in close proximity to a lot of forest, though. I didn't realize there were coyotes hanging out in the suburbs; I'd be interested to know how it effects their behavior, what they're eating, etc. (Housecats?)

It's an indisputable fact that you've got extremely little biodiversity going on in your average housing tract, though, as compared to the remaining wilderness areas that haven't been given over to agriculture or suburban sprawl.

^ Biodiversity being a matter of flora, insects, riparian/aquatic species, etc., and not just the niftier mammals and large birds.

The popup ad on the side is from EasyHealthOptions.com, with a headline advertising a poll on the question Should parents be forced to vaccinate their kids?

The hilarious thing is the illustration, which shows a cute tyke lying on his belly as a white-coated figure injects him in the butt -- through his diaper!

Which I'm sure is nicely sterile. Hopefully it's just a bad photoshop job ...

By palindrom (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

I personally don’t understand the appeal of living in housing tract with people who are all pretty much my same race, income level, age cohort, etc. Especially in one of those places where the houses literally all look the same – it’s like a late-Capitalist version of Kruschev-era Soviet apartment blocks.

I always believed that I had grown up in the suburbs, but the scales have fallen from my eyes. The neighborhoods where I grew up and lived until I moved to my present house in the country were racially integrated; also there were old people and young people; I don't know about income levels because that's not something I enquired about, though some houses had more addition and were better maintained than others. The nearest craft store I can remember growing up was a mile and a half away; there were two independent bookstores, two movie theaters, and a dinner theater within the same distance. There were also fast food places with their distinctive architecture and signs.

So I guess I grew up in an urban environment? Is that right?

I presume you’ve had that water tested, since most well water is naturally high in fluoride.

Now that you mention it, Calli Arcale #133, I really don't know the status of it. It is a community well piped out amongst extended family. I think you may have a pretty good point as that water is incredibly 'hard' and I've witnessed two instances where mineral scale has built up to, and shorted out the heating element. In one case, the white flakes had built all the way to the top element (the bottom one being long past disconnected). I was under the impression that it took less than ten years to become so messed up. I would still expect calcium fluoride over industrial waste from China -- But, who knows? Perhaps some spilled off a barge there.

I don't really go out of my way to truck back water but I have taken to filling up the empty Crystal Springs containers. The simple fact is that the water, though maybe not the very best, does not give me acid reflux in the morning like what has long-happened immediately upon drinking out of the tap here; Particularly if I'd over imbibed' alcohol the previous evening. There is sometimes a strange smell that reminds me of mothballs/naphthalene.

Geology is funny; There is the 'fresh' water well that will cloud up after a heavy rain though there are also 'sulfur' wells in the same general area. Those do stink but also still agree with me in the morning.
------------------------------------------------
"what you’ll find in toothpaste these days isn’t stannous fluoride but sodium fluoride"

The active ingredient in Sensodyne® Repair & Protect, stannous fluoride, builds a repairing layer over the vulnerable areas of your teeth

https://us.sensodyne.com/products/repair-protect-toothpaste.aspx
---------------------------------
One thing I have been doing wrong for many years is to scrub the teeth with baking soda immediately upon vomiting -- This obviously has contributed to 'cupping'.

I am rather ashamed of myself for allowing this to happen; I just never looked with a mirror behind those front teeth even though I recognized accellerated reduction in height.

Thinking back, I have caught myself from time to time having a tendancy to lightly sort of rub that area with wet snuff that had gotten back behind the teeth and on the toung. I don't recall ever doing that until I went 'upper decker'.

I also strongly suspect that my windmill-chasing folly of folic vs. folate contributed as I was breaking the capsules and taking little doses at a time (Well, the stuff is expensive!).

I was chasing it down with milk but I suppose it is possible it was 'lingering' on the toung which was constantly rubbing the back of the teeth as it went arount adjusting the ball of snuff when driving.

What kind of blind spot I've had to discount the 'acid' part?

I was also doing that with the C-complex and actually did become concerned over it's acidity. Unfortunately, the dang brand only comes as a bulk powder now. More unfortunately, all the empty capsules I saved while messing up my teeth have gone walkabout somewhere and I keep procrastinating trying to just buy them; It just irks me that empty capsules there are sometimes more pricey than buying them the same size stuffed with crap.
---------------------------------------------------

Does anybody know how to find out the various 'caustic' potential of some of these various powders?

(6S)-5-Methyltetrahydofolic acid
food derived C-complex
niacin
thiamin
riboflavin

JP--

There's a nontrivial coyote population within the Chicago city limits. And yes, coyotes will prey on outdoor cats and small dogs as well as rodents and other small animals; they're also scavengers. (This isn't the only reason we'd keep our cats indoors even if we didn't live in a fourth-floor apartment near a busy street, but it might be sufficient by itself.)

They are clever and resourceful animals, coyotes, so I guess I am not surprised. They had a habit of preying on pets where I grew up as well, actually. I was back home visiting family this past winter, and my brother told a story which I actually did not remember, oddly enough - I guess I was too little. We used to have rabbits when I was tiny, and apparently I had a favorite gray, floppy-eared, patient one that I used to pack around as a toddler. Coyotes got into the rabbit house and made quick work of all of them, and there were rabbit pieces everywhere. I suppose I am glad I do not remember.

They have as much right to get by as a species as any other, though.

Suburbs do vary, a lot IMO depends on when they were built and sometimes whether they were mostly unincorporated areas that were planned subdivision by subdivision each with a different builder with a different aesthetic and price range or the town boundaries spread out first and you had a lot of oversight from the planning people.

I've mostly lived in the burb's that sprung up and the towns then spread out and those tend to have a lot of variety at least between neighborhoods. Even if one might have similar houses the next one over has a different style and the commercial properties were not required to match the housing units next to them.

But there is a town near here that I get all turned around in because the town spread out before the population exploded and they had strict codes of what building are allowed to look like and I honestly can't tell one subdivision from the next to the point it really gives me the did I just drive into a Stepford movie willies.

@LW and KayMarie:

There are a lot of places, actually, that were/are towns in their own right which have ended up becoming "suburbs" of larger nearby cities, which are different from the type of bedroom communities and housing tracts I'm thinking of. (Actually, a lot of neighborhoods within big cities were originally towns which were annexed at some point, too.)

^ Some suburbs of Detroit are very different from others, for example, although I think it's still fair to point to the general phenomenon of "white flight" as problematic in a lot of ways.

@JP - there are coyotes in Bellevue. We suspect my mom's cat who wandered off to die of cancer met one, I've seen them within a couple blocks

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

(augh hit post too soon) of her house. There are a bunch of rabbits, too. Folks used to abandon bunnies up near MSFT, now it's one of the Boeing satellites. One of her neighbors saw her cat climb the fence to a roof to avoid a coyote, so I suspect they eat cats in addition to the aforementioned rabbits. Mercer Island sporadically has deer - they SWIM to get here (though I love the mental image of them crossing the I-90 bridge via the bike lane...).

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

@Emma Crew:

Oh boy, you live on Mercer Island? I provisionally take back all the horrible things I've ever said about the place. It's my own classism, I suppose.

It's a shame about people abandoning bunnies. I always wonder what possesses people to abandon their pets; if I had the time, the stability, and the proper digs to do it, I'd be taking them in myself. Speaking anecdotally, coyotes will definitely eat cats, and small dogs as well. Our old Australian Shepard/Border Collie mix managed to die of old age, though.

Mercer Island sporadically has deer – they SWIM to get here (though I love the mental image of them crossing the I-90 bridge via the bike lane…).

This reminds me of the opening credits of the TV show Northern Exposure, which I liked watching reruns of as a kid. (I vaguely remember it being a primetime show, also.) You know, the moose walking through town. My first Zen teacher, from when I was in college, was originally from Brooklyn, and used to compare Olympia to the town in that show, which sort of made me giggle. I imagined once or twice taking her back to my home "town," which was really a lot more comparable.

What I find bewildering about this discussion of suburbs is the certainty that if the outsides of the houses are similar or identical, the people inside must necessarily be identical as well (Stepford wives). Since I grew up in suburbs (at least, that's what I would have called them) and so did most of my friends, I know that the people inside the houses are all quite different. It is weird to see such superficiality on RI.

I think I've tried to make it clear that I'm not passing judgment on the particular people who live in the suburbs. We are all quite different and quite a lot alike, when it comes down to it.

^ KayMarie's comment also referred to a Stepford town, not necessarily Stepford wives. I mean, I can certainly see how one could get a Stepford vibe trying to navigate places like this.

They may not still be abandoning rabbits on the Microsoft campus, but my spouse sees them there fairly regularly.

Well I imagine they do breed like, uh, rabbits.

capnkrunch #120:
"I remember a little bit ago the topic of nurses being prone to woo came up and PGP made some really offensive (both about women and nurses in general) comment"

I missed that particular spat, but I feel I must, as a recently retired UK-ian nurse with many years experience of supervising student nurses here, point out that training in critical thinking and assessment of evidence in UK schools of nursing leaves a lot to be desired and is one of the aspects of our nurse training which should really be tightened up.

Indeed I have over the years met a number of fellow nurses who appeared to be proud of not understanding anything scientific, falling back on the old "natural and holistic", touchy-feely mantra...

I am not adverse to a bit of touchy-feely mantra, between consenting adults and in the privacy of one's own home of course.

Anti-vaxxers heads will be exploding next week. Law and Order SVU's latest ripped-from-the-headlines episode features a bevy of Google PhDs trying to defend their decision not to vaccinate (and lie about it) amid a measles outbreak that threatens Benson's son.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7FwE9gyCN6M

"But there is a town near here that I get all turned around in because the town spread out before the population exploded and they had strict codes of what building are allowed to look like and I honestly can’t tell one subdivision from the next to the point it really gives me the did I just drive into a Stepford movie willies."

Maybe a strategic comma would make you feel better. ;)

There is a fairly pricey subdivision not far from where I live, and while the houses are dissimilar they have one thing in common - the residents hardly ever seem to be outside on the porch (where one exists), in their yards or visible, period.
I call it "Neutron Bomb Estates", seeing as how all the residents seem to have vaporized, leaving the buildings intact.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 02 Apr 2015 #permalink

Yeah, I was talking the cinematography of the town near me. Honestly it looks like someone built the town to be the movie set for the next Stepford movie.

FWIW, although you will still say it is just stereotyping and you've never seen a place that in anyway fits any of the stereotypes the suburb I grew up in fit the extremely homogenous stereotype person wise (although it was at the time they seemed to feel the need to create some architectural variety). There were a few outliers but essentially we had almost no kids on free lunch, 99.99% of us were white, our rich kids weren't even the extremely rich as they all lived two suburbs and a school district over near the mall of expensive designer stores. 98% of us went on to college right out of high school (but I will say all the learning challenged went on the short bus to the special school so that probably helped our stats). Yeah, the people in the houses had differences in personality, but ye gods you could be three standard deviations from the mean on most measures and anyplace else you'd be indistinguishable from the mean.

Didn't help that that 'burb got built right around the time a very large company moved into town and half of my neighbors all worked at the same place as my Dad. Which is why I thought car pooling was mainstream and normal way before most people ever heard of it. Just seemed silly to have a string of cars all going to the exact same place all at the exact same time.

And like I said, and will say again. There are lots of 'burbs where you didn't have a city planner who needed every building built to be stylistically identical or where you have socioeconomic and ethnic diversity. Just there are enough of those 'burbs that I, personally have either lived in or near that I can see where that stereotype comes from and can admit I, personally, actually fit the stereotype in a lot of ways.

Not saying you, personally, ever saw one, or live that life, but I recognize the places I've lived in or near that fit it all too well.

"FWIW, although you will still say it is just stereotyping and you’ve never seen a place that in anyway fits any of the stereotypes the suburb I grew up in fit the extremely homogenous stereotype person wise"

Not at all. I would never deny the validity of your experience and observations. It isn't stereotyping unless you extend your experience of your suburb to all suburbs.

What really set me off was Denice's sneering at the motives of women who set foot in craft shops. First, it isn't remotely true about the women I've known who patronized craft shops, and secondly it was only too much like the attitude of my fortunately-ex-sister-in-law, who considered it beneath one of her class to do anything whatsoever with one's hands -- like making something pretty.

@ LW:

Don't you see that it was a joking exaggeration riffing off of a stereotype we've heard here? I thought citing Stepfordisms would be too obvious.

But there is reality underneath - in that suburbs originally were planned around families with small children and one commuter parent. Places like these usually aren't the best places for women in less traditional roles. Sometimes types of community reflect an underlying political or social direction IN GENERAL ( see wiki--- Red vs Blue)

And seriously, do you think that someone with graduate degrees in a social science would believe in such a black-and-white picture of attitudes and lifestyle ?

-btw- I could have mentioned a 2012 political fact that people who voted for Obama were more likely to live in counties with a particular home décor store whilst those who voted for the opposition were more likely to have a particular restaurant in their county ( the so-called Great Crate and Barrel/ Cracker Barrel Divide). Or that liberals chose smaller homes in or near cities while conservatives prefered larger homes in the outlying exurbs. There are loads of data like this, ask Rachel Maddow. Trends don't mean that every single person fits one specific pattern.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 02 Apr 2015 #permalink

Wildlife in cities is becoming a real issue in my home town in BC. Although the metro population is over 350 000, there is a plague of deer in the residential areas. The university till recently was infested with feral rabbits, from various knuckleheads dumping them there and the inevitable consequences. Controlling this is a real problem because of a very strong animal rights influence there. The university does it by shipping the bunnies to a no-kill shelter.
Oh well, the city I'm in now has lots of bears wandering into town through the ravines and greenbelts. You do have to secure your garbage.

JP

I didn’t realize there were coyotes hanging out in the suburbs; I’d be interested to know how it effects their behavior, what they’re eating, etc. (Housecats?)

For one thing, Urban Coyotes are usually solitary. They are the main reason why small dogs are so rare at the pound. I would expect that garbage is large part of their diet.

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 02 Apr 2015 #permalink

And we shouldn't forget the now nearly ubiquitous urban/ suburban foxes ( see Krebiozen's avatar 'kitty').
I know several people who have admired/ fed/ mourned their loss when they got run over by cars. I always feel badly when I see little left on the roadside except the fluffy part.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 02 Apr 2015 #permalink

Where I live and work, the problem a couple years ago was wandering groups of feral turkeys. I'd much rather have foxes. Well, we do, but we rarely see them. The turkeys get up in your face.

ChrisP #161:

Nearly channeling a mutual acquaintance there Chris! Not quite smutty enough, and no mention of uniforms though.

Denice,

And we shouldn’t forget the now nearly ubiquitous urban/ suburban foxes ( see Krebiozen’s avatar ‘kitty’).

We seem to have only one local urban fox at present, but s/he is the healthiest I have ever seen, with a big bushy brush. I have on occasion had to remove dead foxes from the road and people's gardens. I am glad it's just foxes repossessing the city here, and not coyotes or bears. Polar bears are the worst in that regard, I believe, in terms of attacking and eating humans.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 02 Apr 2015 #permalink

That's right, I have heard of polar bears wandering into towns and cities up north. I grew up very much in the country, so it's hardly surprising that we had black bears, a local cougar which sometimes included our yard at the end of its nightly route, etc. (There is nothing like being in the presence of an apex predator to remind you that humans are only one species among many.)

There was a cougar problem at the college I went to for a time, actually - it was prowling around the area where the preschool/daycare was, I believe. I don't remember what the resolution to that situation was.

I have to say that while wild animals in cities/towns can obviously cause problems, I find a certain poetic justice in it. I guess I identify a little bit with the urban coyotes myself.

We have a long, narrow park that follows a small river ( for about 10 miles ) which empties into the larger one: originally it was 5 or 6 small parks that merged by the completion of a bicycle path/ walkway.
Its woods seem to attract various fauna- unbelievably, I once saw a very large stag standing on the railroad tracks next to it." He lives HERE?"

There are foxes near an over-priced residential tower and at least one person I know FEEDS them expensive kitteh food. Of course there are feral cat colonies as well.
This is right in the middle of high density residential housing and various shopping districts.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 02 Apr 2015 #permalink

Anyone who says anything bad about craft stores (Hobby Lobby excepted) gets run through with my knitting needles.

None of y'all live in the country, I take it. Suburbs may suffer from cookie-cutter architecture (goose-dung grey is the color of choice among local developers) but at least if you live there you don't have to drive 25 miles to buy groceries.

@shay:

I used to live in the country - I mean, like, for real - but not anymore. There are nice things about it, but there are also a lot of reasons why I left. We did have a store (sort of a general store) and a tavern within walking distance, but one generally made the drive to town to buy groceries.

I live in a medium-sized college town now. It suits me well enough, although I do wish there was an affordable grocery store within walking distance. Buying groceries by bus is kind of a hassle.

@Denice:

I am disappoint. I never really see anything around here except birds, chipmunks, and squirrels, although the latter can get so big I have mistaken them for cats.

Not quite out in the country, but in a town small enough that the only things you could purchase in town (at that time) were postage stamps and real estate. Anything in between and you had to do elsewhere.

^ Actually, my country bona fides are about a mile long; see, for instance, my great-grandfather's obituary.

On my trips back to Kansas, I have observed that what used to be small farm towns are now becoming suburbs of Wichita as the city expands eastward. The architecture varies from development to development.
Out here in New Mexico, we get late summer visits from the brown bears that live up in the mountains. They wander into the city when food starts to get hard to find. One of the major arroyos south of me is called Bear Canyon.
On my deliveries to some of the expensive neighborhoods in the far heights, I've seen covies of quail scurrying across the streets. And the state bird, the roadrunner, is often seen running around the parking lots.

By squirrelelite (not verified) on 02 Apr 2015 #permalink

I live in a town where, if you drive out to visit me, don't ask for the (my last name) place. No one will know what you are talking about. And if you ask for the (spousal unit's last name) place, they'll send you to his brother's house because that's where his parents lived for 30 years.

You have to ask for the old Clark place, regardless of the fact that the Clarks haven't lived here since 1987.

justthestats: "Sociology research: how does that work?"

As far as I can tell, it's made up on the spot, since a lot of poll results don't actually correlate with how the population behaves. Or bear any vague resemblance to how a place voted, accesses medical care, etc. It's also based on unjustifiable optimism.

DW: I get out and about as much as I can, due to limited funds. Hopefully that'll change soon. I did however go on two birding trips recently. Ever seen the cranes down on the Platte? And I'm definitely going to have to go to Texas again. I don't know what the hummingbirds were doing, but I didn't see a one.

Tim: You're still a creep and a John Bircher. Don't talk to me.

JP: To me, the worst thing about the suburbs is the chain diners. I have two friends who actually 'like' places like TGI Fridays or Applebees. I never complain, but I really wish they'd develop some tastebuds.

And the lack of sidewalks is equally hateful. I like walking or biking, and I prefer not to have to compete with cars. I've already been in one car accident.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 02 Apr 2015 #permalink

At any rate, social scientists DO look at dimensions like rural/ urban ( as well as 900 others/ income, education, race. gender etc) to explain how people think and feel about a variety of topics. Of course, this doesn't tell us much about individuals but it can instruct us about general attitudes of a majority or plurality in specific locales.

So who uses this?
Political candidates and companies who sell diverse products. In discussing attitudes, these are not restricted to the purely political but encompass societal measures as well. Individuals might use of these general trends ( which might be thought of as stereotypes) to understand how MOST people in a particular place would react to a particular person or issue. Candidates tailor these messages accordingly. For example, I know people who are gay/ lesbian or part of an interracial couple who avoid specific areas of the US and particular countries as places to vacation. They don't want any flack- and they're smart enough to understand that not everyone is these places is 'like that' but enough are to ruin a planned trip that costs them money.

Ideas like 'red and blue' touch upon many of these topics ( see wikip---), so I might ask are people REALLY so different? In certain aspects, probably so. Countries like the US seem, to me at least,, to be in a minor civil war arguing about the role of government, the nature of economic controls and which personal values should rule over all people. There are - at least- two different worldviews and often, not a lot of compromise.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 02 Apr 2015 #permalink

@JP There are a lot of awful folks on MI, I certainly see where the stereotypes come from. People who bitch about the families living in condos and apartments sending their kids to "OUR schools, they don't REALLY live here" make me rather ill, frex.. We bought here for the schools because when we were looking, places like Issaquah were voting down school bonds, and folks here at least get that their property values are tied to the quality of the school district. Lately there are more Microsoft and Amazon families moving in, but it still distressingly white (I grew up in Richmond, CA, I am horrified that people we know have gotten pulled over just for being black). So, don't take it all back, but there are some decent folks as well. I am REALLY impressed by the junior high kids who do the mentor program in the special ed classroom. They have to apply and write essays, over the years my son has faced absolutely zero bullying and a lot of other kids making sure he is included as much as possible. Big change from my youth.

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 02 Apr 2015 #permalink

This is right in the middle of high density residential housing and various shopping districts.

I live on the backside of a certain large hillside sign displaying the industrial heritage of the city. Amidst the dense commercial and residential structures, the hill itself is full of possums, rabbits, raptor birds hunting for prey, and coyotes. I stepped outside of the house a few nights ago and stood on my porch to film the sounds of the coyotes howling right across the street - with the thoroughfare traffic at my back. It's oddly quite cool to be at such a dividing line.

The deer are a big problem, though. They have no fear of humans. We need more mountain lions.

By Roadstergal (not verified) on 02 Apr 2015 #permalink

Whoops, fat fingered my email address, comment in moderation. I'll also point out my husband jokes that we live on "Stepford Island."

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 02 Apr 2015 #permalink

The deer are a big problem, though. They have no fear of humans. We need more mountain lions.

I really, really wanted to get a tattoo of a mountain lion a couple years back, but I decided I did not want to put up with people making "cougar" comments/jokes for the rest of my life. Maybe some day the stupid usage will fade and I can get the tattoo.

Oh right! The coolest thing we have going for us wildlife-wise on MI are the mated bald eagles.

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 02 Apr 2015 #permalink

I know where Richmond is!
And I think I know where Emma means...

-btw-
Several years ago, I visited Monterey and near the lighthouse ( and golf course) was a sign warning about the
mountains lions ( *los gatos*) recently seen in the vicinity.
But I didn't see any.

My area has its share of raptors. Some are birds.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 02 Apr 2015 #permalink

Ooops! I meant where Roadstergal means.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 02 Apr 2015 #permalink

@Vicki - The area between 148th and 520 just south of 40th, now all full of Microsoft, used to be Eddie Bauer HQ and a bunch of vacant property. There were HUNDREDS of rabbits there. When I was feeling particularly glum, I'd sometimes go just to see the bunnies, there were always several to be seen at any given time. When Microsoft got ready to build there, a group actually rounded up as many of them as they could, neutered them, and took them to some farmland further east, if memory serves (it was 10 years ago, maybe more). I'm sure they missed some, though, and I wouldn't be surprised to find them all through the area.

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 02 Apr 2015 #permalink

@Emma Crew:

I have known a number of jerks from Mercer Island, unfortunately, which is large part if where my stereotyped notion of the place comes from. They were real Richie Rich types, and subscribed to a really loathsome social Darwinist worldview.

One of them was, in fact, a social studies teacher I had in middle school, who "took an interest" in me and thought I was a real "diamond in the rough"* or something. I'm not sure exactly how he ended up teaching at my school in the middle of nowhere (well, the nearest town, anyway,) but he was a real piece of work. He had a notion to indoctrinate me in both monist materialism and a weird, nominally "socially liberal" form of right-wing politics and economics, neither of which took.

*A friend of mine once asked me how "such a gem" could result from situations of such awfulness piled upon awfulness, and I replied:
"It's amazing what can happen to carbon under pressure."

Several years ago, I visited Monterey and near the lighthouse ( and golf course) was a sign warning about the
mountains lions ( *los gatos*) recently seen in the vicinity.
But I didn’t see any.

Well, they are nocturnal, and don't exactly go to great efforts to make their presence known. If they are active in the daytime and hanging around humans, it's a bad sign, actually.

My area has its share of raptors. Some are birds.

Are some of them DINOSAURS?

Oh, wait. Same thing.

@ JP:

Heh.
Two legged financial raptors.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 02 Apr 2015 #permalink

So she wanted "freedom" from vaccines and expected the rest of society to just magically make everything okay and rescue her from the slightest inconvenience for a decision SHE unilaterally made. Even if a contagious disease breaks out at the school, somehow the school is supposed to just take care of it somehow without bugging her or anything, even though her kid is unvaccinated and at risk.

@JP Yep, I definitely know some of that type. And that teacher, ugh!

My husband is pretty involved with the local Democratic Party and we were both really surprised (given the stereotypes) to find out the city votes something like 2/3 Democratic.

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 02 Apr 2015 #permalink

justthestats: “Sociology research: how does that work?”

As far as I can tell, it’s made up on the spot, since a lot of poll results don’t actually correlate with how the population behaves. Or bear any vague resemblance to how a place voted, accesses medical care, etc. It’s also based on unjustifiable optimism.

I literally facepalmed when I read that. There is a whole lot more to sociology then just reading what the latest Gallop poll says. For that matter, sociologists have ways of measuring how much reality varies from what people report on opinion polls.

Here's a few links for you:
http://www.cliffsnotes.com/sciences/sociology/sociological-research-met…
http://sociology.about.com/od/Research-Methods/

By justthestats (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

Has enyone got advice for rapid dissolution of teeth? Several months ago, I surmised it as just another symptome of ‘ naso pharengeal cancer’

Tim@#80, let me drop this plausible(?) scenario on you: You drank alot, you had a scare which turned out to be an infection. You stopped your staple food, milk, and took the Cipro while continuing to drink. You began to wig out. You got on a vitamin kick and started eating while also drinking alot less -- You'd thought you would fix potential percieved damage by taking the fad 'nicotinamide riboside', a NAD+ enhancer. It supercharged your mitocondria and ATP production which was just great, until it was not.

Refeeding syndrome This causes a demand for phosphate in cells due to the action of Hexokinase, an enzyme that attaches phosphate to glucose to begin metabolism of glucose. Also, production of ATP when cells are fed and recharge their energy supplies, requires phosphate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypophosphatemia#Common_causes_of_hypophos…

You tried to go to doctors to find a diagnosis of an actual problem one of them found that was not what you expected, but you were in too much of an agitated state to undergo any of the scans; They toss you out the door when you get frustrated and inquire 'Is there a naturopath in the neighborhood?'.

Let me guess again: You spent six months sitting on your butt 'wigging out' and, in addition to being millimeters from being toothless, now wake up to find that you pee lowfat milk after exercise but that an addition of vinegar makes it all just turn clear. Now you probably do have some kind of parathyroid problem from all the crap you swallowed; Or a PTH secreting tumor, afterall.

Go see a doctor. No, wait? That's a problem for you, is it not?

You were in pretty good physical shape, for your age; Thx for breaking it, derpero.

By Caustic Soda (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

I am curious are you for forced vaccination?
The Varicella vaccine side effects are the following: transverse myelitis, shingles as well as GBS.
Is it s a big deal if a kid gets chickenpoxs?? Not usually, but is it a big deal if the child gets one of these side effects yes.
The incidence of shingles is higher now with the vaccine available than it was before the vaccine came out..
Do you even know why that is? Because the elderly are not being exposed to the children who have chickenpox anymore....when the elderly are exposed to chickenpox it acts as a natural vaccine against shingles, without that exposure there is now a higher rate of shingles.
The incidence of autism has increased dramatically since 1970 which was 1:10,000. It is now 1:162 and increasing do you not think this is related at all the newer vaccines?? Or any environmental factors than please enlighten me on what is increasing this I would love to know.
Autism increasing is due to the increase of heavy metals (mercury for one is in many vaccines)

By Arizona ND (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

(mercury for one is in many vaccines)
Would you care to specify the mercury-containing vaccines?

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

Dr. Wolfson, is that you?

The incidence of shingles is higher now with the vaccine available than it was before the vaccine came out..
Do you even know why that is? Because the elderly are not being exposed to the children who have chickenpox anymore….when the elderly are exposed to chickenpox it acts as a natural vaccine against shingles, without that exposure there is now a higher rate of shingles.

You do realize, I assume, that you are arguing that little children should suffer the misery of disease so that their elders don't have to get a vaccine? And you also realize, I assume, that those little children will grow up and be subject to shingles, so that other little children must suffer for *their* benefit -- and on and on and on forever.

Do you actually think that's acceptable?

@Arizona ND, anti-vaxxers like to ask, "why should my child run any risk whatsoever to maintain herd immunity?"

I will turn that around: why should your child, or indeed any child, suffer the small but real risk of death from chickenpox, just to maintain the immunity of the adults around him?

Arizona ND,

The Varicella vaccine side effects are the following: transverse myelitis, shingles as well as GBS.

That's odd, there's no mention of transverse myelitis or GBS as adverse events associated with the varicella vaccine on the CDC page that deals with the vaccine.

Is it s a big deal if a kid gets chickenpoxs?? Not usually, but is it a big deal if the child gets one of these side effects yes.

Severe sequelae after chicken pox are far more common than severe adverse events after the vaccine.

The incidence of shingles is higher now with the vaccine available than it was before the vaccine came out..

The CDC states (op cit):

However, the risk of getting shingles from vaccine-strain VZV after chickenpox vaccination is much lower than getting shingles after natural infection with wild-type VZV.

Also, there a vaccine for shingles that reduces the risk even further.

Do you even know why that is? Because the elderly are not being exposed to the children who have chickenpox anymore….when the elderly are exposed to chickenpox it acts as a natural vaccine against shingles, without that exposure there is now a higher rate of shingles.

But if children don't get chicken pox they are much less likely to get shingles when they are older. You seem to be proposing a sort of self-fulfilling cycle of illness that requires children to be sick and even die to protect the elderly.

The incidence of autism has increased dramatically since 1970 which was 1:10,000. It is now 1:162 and increasing do you not think this is related at all the newer vaccines??

No, I don't.

Or any environmental factors than please enlighten me on what is increasing this I would love to know.

I think changes in diagnostic criteria, increased surveillance, diagnostic substitution and reduced stigma attached to a diagnosis adequately explain the apparent increase.

Autism increasing is due to the increase of heavy metals (mercury for one is in many vaccines)

No it isn't. Practically no children's vaccines have contained any thimerosal for the past decade or more, yet autism incidence has not fallen, and large well-designed studies find no link. I'll leave you with some conclusions of this paper (PDF) published by the AAP in 2013:

Overwhelmingly, the evidence collected over the past 15 years has failed to yield any evidence of significant harm, including serious neurodevelopmental disorders, from use of thimerosal in vaccines. Dozens of studies from countries around the world have supported the safety of thimerosal-containing vaccines. Specifically, the Institute of Medicine, and others have concluded that the evidence favors rejection of a link between thimerosal and autism.

Careful studies of the risk of other serious neurodevelopmental disorders have failed to support a causal link with thimerosal. In May 2002, the American Academy of Pediatrics retired its 1999 statement on thimerosal after evaluating new studies. [...] Had the evidence that is available now been available in 1999, the policy reducing thimerosal use would likely have not been implemented. Furthermore, in 2008 the World Health Organization (WHO) endorsed the use of thimerosal in vaccines.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

Arizona ND: "I am curious are you for forced vaccination?"

Who is forcing her to vaccinate her children? She is quite free to send her unvaxed kid to the school as long as there are no active chicken pox outbreaks. It was spelled out on the form she signed.

"Autism increasing is due to the increase of heavy metals (mercury for one is in many vaccines)"

Citation needed, especially for the varicella vaccine.

"Because the elderly are not being exposed to the children who have chickenpox anymore….when the elderly are exposed to chickenpox it acts as a natural vaccine against shingles, without that exposure there is now a higher rate of shingles."

Then tell them to get a shingles vaccine! Why should any child suffer, especially for a baby boomer, if there is a simple solution to that problem.

By the way only a cruel sadistic child hater would desire a child spend up to two weeks covered in itchy open wounds (pox). I say this as parent who had to take care of three such children a bit over twenty years ago, including one who was a six month old baby who was fully breastfed.

Only a really sick in the head person would want to have a child get sick just to avoid a shingles vaccine. I got a shingles vaccine, there was nothing to it. Go get one yourself and stop encouraging parents to make sure their kids get sick.

Ugh, I did not close out the bold. But the dear brave naturopath does need to tell us how much thimerosal is in the varicella vaccine.

Lawrence: "Dr. Wolfson, is that you?"

He a DO, not an ND. So he is a real cardiologist. But we all know that "ND" stands for "Not a Doctor."

In addition to the integrative cardiologist Wolfson, there's also a Wolfson in AZ who's an ND

#203 Thank you Kreb for that civilized explanation w/o name calling.

. . . there’s also a Wolfson in AZ who’s an ND

That would be an error - he's in SoCal

*nebbermind*

Do you even know why that is? Because the elderly are not being exposed to the children who have chickenpox anymore….when the elderly are exposed to chickenpox it acts as a natural vaccine against shingles, without that exposure there is now a higher rate of shingles.

What does the Great Gazoogle have to say about this interesting exercise of the speculative faculty?

However, two CDC studies have found that herpes zoster rates:
started increasing before varicella vaccine was introduced in the United States, and
did not accelerate after the routine varicella vaccination program started.[5,8]
Other countries, that do not have routine varicella vaccination programs, have also observed similar increases in herpes zoster rates.[9]

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

From the CDC "Many people do not remember having varicella; however, approximately 99.5% of people born in the United States who are 40 years of age and older have been infected with wild-type VZV. As a result, all older adults in the United States are at risk for herpes zoster".
www.cdc.gov/shingles/hcp/clinical-overview.html

When I went to the local clinic for a hepatitis B vaccine a few years back, they asked me if I was up to date on the TDaP vaccine and whether I'd had the MMR. I'm old enough that they didn't ask whether I had had chicken pox, just whether I had been born in the United States. (I assume that if I hadn't been, there would have been follow up questions.)

The adult chickenpox / shingles argument is the one used for not giving the vaccine as standard in the UK, but some people are wondering whether the real reason is the fear of vaccines for children stirred up by the antivaxers. Since you can now get the shingles vaccne here when you're seventy it does seem a weirdly circular argument.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/vaccinations/Pages/chickenpox-vaccine-ques…

http://www.theguardian.com/science/occams-corner/2014/may/15/real-reaso…

Arizona ND:

"The incidence of shingles is higher now with the vaccine available than it was before the vaccine came out..
Do you even know why that is? Because the elderly are not being exposed to the children who have chickenpox anymore….when the elderly are exposed to chickenpox it acts as a natural vaccine against shingles, without that exposure there is now a higher rate of shingles."

Have you got links to any studies of large population groups to prove your statement?

How about this study which examined the records of more than 2,800,000 Medicare recipients ages 65 and older, which found that the increase in shingles cases was on the rise before the varicella vaccine was licensed.

http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1784289

"Examination of Links Between Herpes Zoster Incidence and Childhood Varicella Vaccination

Background: Introduction of a universal varicella vaccine program for U.S. children in 1996 sparked concern that less-frequent exposure to varicella would decrease external boosting of immunity to varicella zoster virus and thereby increase incidence of herpes zoster (HZ).

Objective: To determine whether the varicella vaccination program has influenced trends in HZ incidence in the U.S. population older than 65 years.

Design: Retrospective study of Medicare claims.

Setting: Medicare, 1992 through 2010.

Participants: 2 848 765 beneficiaries older than 65 years.

Measurements: Annual HZ incidence from 1992 through 2010; rate ratios (RRs) for HZ incidence by age, sex, and race or ethnicity; and state-level varicella vaccination coverage.

Results: 281 317 incident cases of HZ occurred. Age- and sex-standardized HZ incidence increased 39% from 10.0 per 1000 person-years in 1992 to 13.9 per 1000 person-years in 2010 with no evidence of a statistically significant change in the rate of increase after introduction of the varicella vaccination program. Before introduction of this program, HZ incidence was higher in women (RR, 1.21 [95% CI, 1.19 to 1.24]) than men and was lower in black persons (RR, 0.51 [CI, 0.48 to 0.53]) and Hispanic persons (RR, 0.76 [CI, 0.72 to 0.81]) than white persons. In a model adjusted for sex, age, and calendar year from 1997 to 2010, HZ incidence did not vary by state varicella vaccination coverage (RR, 0.9998 [CI, 0.9993 to 1.0003]).

Limitation: Uncertain level and consistency of health-seeking behavior and access and uncertain accuracy of disease coding.

Conclusion: Age-specific HZ incidence increased in the U.S. population older than 65 years even before implementation of the childhood varicella vaccination program. Introduction and widespread use of the vaccine did not seem to affect this increase. This information is reassuring for countries considering universal varicella vaccination."

BTW, If every child receives varicella vaccines, as they age they will not have to worry about reactivation of the virus as shingles.

Do you even know why that is? Because the elderly are not being exposed to the children who have chickenpox anymore….

Some people have the balls to get a fυcking booster shot should such a situation arise (see: diphtheria) rather than whining like stuck pigs that not enough children are falling ill to obviate that inconvenience.

Rather than expecting a degree of protection against shingles by exposing yourself to chicken pox from deliberately non vaccinated children, you should consider the shingles vaccine:

http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p2025.pdf

"Some people have the balls to get a fυcking booster shot should such a situation arise (see: diphtheria) rather than whining like stuck pigs that not enough children are falling ill to obviate that inconvenience." Narad the red rod

Geez, you are still at it. No one dies from chicken pox, that's bullshit. We all had it as kids, a week of school with comics and ice cream, no need for treatment. The kids who got sick put medication on the blisters, this used to be salvasan or mecurial oxide, the ones who jut rested and hydrated all returned to school. The problem is that doctors are so prepped up with total bull on these kiddy complaints that they shit their pants at the first sign of a fever, medicate and make it really complicated. We need to retrain doctors to actually stand back and leave a normal process alone.

If we follow the shinning torch of Narad we will all end up with wanking vaccine!

By the way accupuncture and homeopathy are bullshit, neither will help your bell end get better Narad, you just gotta stop rubbing it better!!

@Johnny - wow, why do you continue to lie?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1846819/?page=1

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/mom-child-died-chicken-pox-advocates-vacci…

http://chickenpox.emedtv.com/chickenpox/chickenpox-and-death.html

And I certainly remember what Chicken Pox was like in my house - having all three kids (myself included) getting sick sequentially, with each case worse than the last, was no picnic - and, of course, my parents being forced to stay home with a sick child for about 7 weeks was a huge problem as well, in a two-income household.

And anti-vaxers wonder why no one takes them seriously - you are a poster child of why that is Johnny.

Johnny:

No one dies from chicken pox, that’s bull$h!t.

From http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24954057:

In 2013 chickenpox resulted in 7,000 deaths globally – down from 8,900 in 1990.

If ignorance was bliss, you'd be euphoric.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 04 Apr 2015 #permalink

The problem is that doctors are so prepped up with total bull on these kiddy complaints that they sh[]t their pants at the first sign of a fever, medicate and make it really complicated.

Just like it doesn't say in the NICE guideline that you couldn't find. Do everyone a favor and stick to your original hole, where your asserted CDC incursion into foreign policy is waiting.

Global death is not the issue, numbskull. Death from anything has a relationship with GDP. If we used global death as a caveat for all mortality.................. it is a bullshit stat.

I am more concerned about Narad going blind............

Julian, how many people have died from Chicken pox in the US and Uk in the last 10 years? Using Wikiwanks as a source under a pubmed link is weasle work.

Get Narad a box of tissues - its overwhelming

http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/25/deaths-from-chickenpox-down/

"Every kid did get chickenpox and, in the pre-vaccine era, there were 3-4 million cases a year," Seward said. "What people may not have realized, every year, about 105 people died of chickenpox."

And

Among adults younger than 50, the decline was 96 percent; overall, the decline was 88 percent.

So the death rate was around just 15 a year in the U.S.
Another source http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/25/us-deaths-with-vaccine-idUSTR…

Since the early 1990s, the bug has gone from killing 105 a year to causing fewer than 20 annual deaths between 2003 and 2007.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 04 Apr 2015 #permalink

No one dies from chicken pox, that’s bullsh!t.

Apart from the people that do, about 4 each year in the UK, and let's not forget the other complications:

The complications were: bacteraemia/septic shock (n = 30), pneumonia (n = 30), encephalitis (n = 26), ataxia (n = 25), toxic shock syndrome/toxin-mediated disease (n = 14), necrotising fasciitis (n = 7), purpura fulminans/disseminated coagulopathy (n = 5), fulminant varicella (n = 5) and neonatal varicella (n = 3). 52 children (46%) had additional bacterial infections. Six deaths were due, or possibly due, to varicella, including one intrauterine death.

Vaccination that has practically zero side effects sounds much more alluring than any of those complications to me, it sounds much nicer than what I remember of having chicken pox, which was a week or two of misery.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 04 Apr 2015 #permalink

1.8 people die globally every second - it's appauling and it can be stopped by suspended animation.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3643888/Chickenpox-vaccine-is-bad-fo…

chickenpox death, again is about context. the kids that die are not your usual well on minute dead the next type.

just like we were told swine flu was gonna kill us all and didn't, chicken pox can be marketed as the next big killer when it simply aint. More hyped up bull - oh to sell a vaccine that is the same merrygo round of appeals to emotion and profits for Offits. It's sicker than the thought of Narad the Knob making hay

"Vaccination that has practically zero side effects sounds much more alluring than any of those complications to me, it sounds much nicer than what I remember of having chicken pox, which was a week or two of misery." Krebby

More vaccine anecdotes from the foxy lady. Shit, sounds like you had a crap doctor, did they put Calomel lotion on the spots?

Badly nursed and malnourished people die from chicken pox

Johnny: "Badly nursed and malnourished people die from chicken pox"

So you are going to blame the victim. Classy.

Just as classy as being a sadistic child hater who delights when they are covered in dozens of itchy open wounds.

In that case, Johnny, I will consider your arguments when every single child on the planet is adequately nourished, and every family can afford suitable nursing care when their children get sick, and not before. Right now, you are trying to convince me that we should leave poor children to die so you don't have to suffer the inconvenience of shingles vaccine.

That might seem plausible to you, since you see your own inconvenience and not the pain of a stranger's death. But you are as much a stranger to me as that dying child: the only difference is that I know you don't care about the deaths of strangers. On that basis, I do not conclude that your life, comfort, or convenience are more valuable than theirs.

By the way accupuncture and homeopathy are bullsh[]t

It's quite telling that you are so desperate to dissociate your hobby of swinish, moronic trolling from your osteoquackery lunch ticket that you have moved from claiming that Philip Hills is actually plagiarizing you to insulting your own wife,* Janice Hills of the Hope Cosmetic and Acupuncture Clinic Essex.

* With the brain-dead tactic of always misspelling "acupuncture," much as you tried – and sloppily failed at the end – to carefully deny being "Mr. Hill." SEO is not your long suit.

Sh[]t, sounds like you had a crap doctor, did they put Calomel lotion on the spots?

Oh, I'm sure mercurous chloride would make the pox feel much better. You know why it was used in teething powders, right? No, I didn't think so.

This appears to be some sort of attempt to salvage the preceding bit of idiocy:

The kids who got sick put medication on the blisters, this used to be salvasan [sic] or mecurial [sic] oxide

Because of course, the natural choice for chickenpox is an antisyphilitic agent, and you got the non-arsenic one wrong to boot, in two different ways.

Just another day in the shockingly stupid life of Philip Hills, Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex.

No one dies from chicken pox, that’s bullshit.

Badly nursed and malnourished people die from chicken pox.

^^We seem to have a contradiction there.

Oh, well. Even if that was true, FYI:

Malnutrition as a result of poverty is not just a "global" problem.

So you are going to blame the victim. Classy.

It helps to bear in mind that Phildo, in accordance with "classical osteopathy," doesn't believe in contagious disease. One can also find this at at least one of his advertising sites (this one also has the bonus of repeating his bizarre misunderstanding of the innate immune system):

Firstly it is important to understand that the human body has a vast array of physiological ‘know how’ focussed on keeping you alive, symptoms of illness are in fact reactions to life events rather than signs of malfunction....

The problem could be an increased intake of toxins, or equally a nutritional deficiency, or even an emotional stress.

Alternatively, it is a global problem in the sense that it affects people just about everywhere on Earth. Global literally, not as a euphemism for "not in the developed world."

The (not so) subtext of those comments about undernourished people being at risk is that well-to-do Americans have nothing to worry about. We're supposed to pretend that no American children go to bed hungry, and that no parents worry about snow days because they were counting on the school breakfast and lunch to feed their children.

No sign of Arizona ND coming back to defend his / her claims, so they must be so good that they stand by themselves.

when the elderly are exposed to chickenpox it acts as a natural vaccine against shingles

This is akin to arguing that "Some elderly people were abused when they were young... and they still suffer from recurring flashbacks... but the flashbacks are less frequent as long as they know that young people today are being abused in the same way. Therefore the abuse must continue in perpetuity."
With an equal lack of evidence.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 04 Apr 2015 #permalink

@201

Of course you do know that Asperger's Syndrome wasn't labelled and the term popularised until Lorna Wing did so in 1981? Which kinda precludes making such diagnoses prior to that time...

And that most of the tools used to assess the autistic spectrum were not developed until after the 1990s?

And that we have become very much better at assessment and diagnosis, especially from the start of this century?

So historical prevalence of the autistic spectrum is unknowable, which makes your comparison pretty useless.

And that mercury poisoning does not at all resemble autism?

And that basic mental health training for several disciplines in the UK is still very poor at covering autism assessment and the like? I.E we have gone from non-existent when I trained in the mid-'80s to pretty poor now.

Personal attacks on the mother are not relevant. The issue at hand should be that a person who wants to protect their child should be allowed to do so. There is evidence that vaccines can cause harm, so those who refuse vaccinations should be allowed to do so without discrimination. However, there is also evidence that chickenpox can have harmful effects, so those who choose not to vaccinate for the wellbeing of their child, should also choose to prevent infection by keeping their child away from known cases of the disease.

Robyn, while I agree with most of hat you said, there are other factors to consider.

[T]hose who choose not to vaccinate for the wellbeing of their child, should also choose to prevent infection by keeping their child away from known cases of the disease.

Most of the known cases of the disease occur in the unvaccinated.
The evidence that vaccines can cause harm is slight. What is known is that the unvaccinated can spread the diseases to the immunosuppressed (e.g. people undergoing chemotherapy, people who received organs) and children too young to be vaccinated. Recently, Riley Hughes, a baby less than five weeks old, died of pertussis. Herd immunity would have protected him had everyone been properly vaccinated.
Not vaccinating is a choice that causes harm.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

Robyn - What is your view of those parents who choose to protect their children from the harms of vaccines but deliberately expose them to the disease itself?

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

Narad the red raw, at it again. It will fall off or you will go blind.

So let's get this, when was a kid I can't think of anyone who died of chicken pox in my peer group. Even by CDC standards the numbers don't even make it out of single figures.

http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/antibiotic-resistance/

When we allow doctors to make our health choices this is what happens. I am not Mr Hill and I think acupuncture and homeopathy is as bullshit as flu vaccine. all 3 are about marketing and snake oil. What does Narad do for a living, apart from wanking?

"Most of the known cases of the disease occur in the unvaccinated." Julian the soothsayer

Well that's bull, last years whooping cough epidemic occurred when vaccine uptake according to the CDC was the highest ever.

This years flu vaccine failure means all of those who get flu will probably have had the vaccine - you guys should work for Sachi and Sachi

"This is akin to arguing that “Some elderly people were abused when they were young… and they still suffer from recurring flashbacks… but the flashbacks are less frequent as long as they know that young people today are being abused in the same way. Therefore the abuse must continue in perpetuity.” Herr focktor

Interesting, so that means we will continue the abuse of childhood vaccination because our daddy doctors did it. MMM. Well then they used the bible to sell snake oil, now its pubmed and all those disciples/minions.....

Interesting, so that means we will continue the abuse of childhood vaccination because our daddy doctors did it.

That's a fascination misinterpretation of the statement. Doubtless that is the reason we still vaccinate for smallpox, even though it was wiped out by a massive public health campaign built, in part, on vaccination. Oh, wait...

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

@MoB - I wonder what old Johnny will think when we discontinue to use of OPV / IPV once Polio is eradicated?

Johnny, I want a citation for your claim that the outbreak of whooping cough occurred with the "highest vaccination rate ever".

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

Johnny, I want a citation for your claim that the outbreak of whooping cough occurred with the “highest vaccination rate ever”.

Don't forget the "last years" [sic] part. Once again, it's transparent what he "thinks" he's referring to. If, on the other hand, one wants to talk about the 2014 California outbreak, the CDC is quite clear:

"Very few mothers of infants with pertussis had received Tdap during pregnancy; many more were vaccinated after delivery, which does not confer any direct protection to the infant and is no longer a preferred strategy. Recently published data indicate that Tdap vaccination coverage among pregnant women was only 19.5% in 2012 across California Vaccine Safety Datalink sites (7). Similarly, in a survey conducted at 100 birthing hospitals in California during October 2013, only 25% of new mothers reported receiving Tdap during pregnancy, whereas an additional 44% received Tdap in the hospital after delivery (CDPH, unpublished data, 2013)....

"Notably, the peak age of disease incidence beyond infancy increased to age 14–16 years in 2014 compared with the peak among children aged 10 years during the 2010 pertussis epidemic (1). Children and teenagers born in the United State since 1997 have only received acellular pertussis vaccine, and the upper age of this cohort correlates with the peak age in incidence during both epidemic years.... Most of the cases among adolescents aged 14–16 years were among those who had previously received Tdap ≥3 years earlier, suggesting that their illness was the result of waning immunity."

Of course, the latter gap was already well known, and Phildo doesn't believe that diseases are "catching" in any event.

@Lawrence,

I wonder what old Johnny will think when we discontinue to use of OPV / IPV once Polio is eradicated?

He'll think:
- They're admitting vaccines don't work!
- Polio didn't go away, they just renamed it.
- Polio was never that big a deal anyway - practically nobody ever died of it.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

the outbreak of whooping cough occurred with the “highest vaccination rate ever”.

Australia's own Tasha David a.k.a. "Health Freedom" is fond of that little factoid. She has also convinced herself that no-one died of diseases before vaccines came along:

the death rates from the diseases we now vaccinate against were at 0 per 100000 rate before most of the vaccines were introduced

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

herr doktor bimler - Clearly nobody died of diseases that we currently vaccinate against. They died of a failure to maintain proper organ function, as well as failure to achieve sufficient blood oxygenation and flow rate.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

just like no one died of cancer before we discovered radiation and started using chemotherapy on them. Nope not a one. /sarcasm

That's why people lived so much longer in the good old days. I mean, duh.

Well that’s bull, last years whooping cough epidemic occurred when vaccine uptake according to the CDC was the highest ever.

How long has it been "last year"? From two years ago:
the highest vaccine uptake for decades and the highest number of cases!

ht_tp://berkshireskeptics.org.uk/blog/2013/01/13/a-healthy-bout-of-chickenpox/#comment-246
The HPA tell us we have the highest vaccine coverage for whooping cough for decades and the highest number of cases.

ht_tp://www.scilogs.com/epilogue/one-of-the-herd-2/#comment-82
So considering that we currently have the highest number of whooping cough cases in the USA and UK for decades and the NIH and CDC and HPA all say that we have the highest vaccine uptake for decades so non vaccined cannot be blamed

From one year ago:
last years vaccine failure was whooping cough, highest uptake of vaccine ever coinciding with the highest outbreaks ever.

Philip displays a kind of timeless charm.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

Robyn: "Personal attacks on the mother are not relevant."

Actually, they are. I suppose they just hit too close to home for you. Anti-vax groups and clusters are almost entirely composed of well-off, college-educated suburban narcissists who don't understand biology. And unfortunately, they have managed to sabotage immunization rates across the country, and they don't care. They don't care about their own kids, they certainly don't give a darn about the kid with cancer, all they care about is that they produced a kid with no obvious defects and who can go to college, excel in sports, and basically be a living merit badge.

LW: "What I find bewildering about this discussion of suburbs is the certainty that if the outsides of the houses are similar or identical, the people inside must necessarily be identical as well (Stepford wives)."

Have you ever heard of 'sorting' or 'clustering' where people of the same ideology deliberately look for housing near people who are similar to them?

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

ken @250, that's why people are supposed to get booster shots.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

"Some people have the balls to get a fυcking booster shot should such a situation arise" Narad stop rubbing it.

Julian the CDC made it clear that last years whooping cough epidemic correlated with the highest uptake of whooping cough ever. It also made it very clear that the cuddly anitvaxxer has nothing to do with it because the mythical herd immunity had been reached.

Who gives a toss about spelling, I am not Mr Hill and never have been................

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6128a1.htm

Here it is clear that the whooping cough vaccine is bullshit, even in the CDC's own scrawl. Mind you they still put the Ronald McDonald caveat at the end 'of course vaccination is still the best way to .................' For jerks like Julian and Narad that for some reason believe the wordiology a the end more than the facts in the field. Nothing new there - break out the tissues Narad and put something on that frig spot for geez sake!
Even when the vaccine fails it's still an amazing break through. Why should not ordinary parents see past this shit mist and say fuck you to vaccination? Answers on a post card

Herr doktor, shame I am not Mr Hill isn't it, then again you aren't a doctor are you?

Johnny:

Julian the CDC made it clear that last years whooping cough epidemic correlated with the highest uptake of whooping cough ever.

Repeating something does not automatically make it true. Oh, and that link you posted? It dates back to 2012, so I don't see how it proves that we had a huge epidemic last year, or that DTaP uptake in 2014 was the highest ever.
Either use relevant, up-to-date cites, or admit you are rectally sourcing your "data".

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

"Repeating something does not automatically make it true. " Jools, well halleluiah. Narad has frig spot over me being someone called Mr Hill.

This site is great, one points out the huge snakeoil hole in vaccine mythology and all someone can do is nark on a typo. Why does it surprise you so that so many people are walking away from opinions like yours? Not Hill, not even bumpy

Come on political pig what about vaccine induced narcolepsy then - 800 kids have that now - it's a good reason to walk away from the snakeoil vaccine.

Who cares what year it was, the whooping cough vaccine is bullshit and they are still giving it out. Getting picky over numbers isn't gonna magik it back into a goody event - unless that is you are a vaccine believer - ohh look it works now. Not Mr Hillll.

I can smell the fear in the continual need to moderate - cowards and that is the lot of the pharma shill. Fear

I, for one, am willing to accept the conclusion that the current pertussis vaccine is not as effective as one might like.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

"Pharma shill"? Libel does not help your case.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

"who cares what year it was"
"getting picky over numbers"

Thank you, Johnny, for demonstrating so beautifully how vitally important the truth actually is to you. ;-)

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

Johnny: One error doesn't indict the whole industry. Besides, didn't that story turn out to be false? (It also doesn't change that you and every other anti-vax has no idea what science is or how it works. Don't you still believe in humors?)

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

Julian, how many people have died from Chicken pox in the US and Uk in the last 10 years?

You mean, since the introduction of routine vaccination against chicken pox? Far fewer than died in the years prior to its introduction. That was your point, right--how the vaccine has effectively reduced the incidence of infection, hospitalizatiosn and deaths due to chicken pox?

[O]ne points out the huge snakeoil hole in vaccine mythology

Not even close, o ignorant, self deluding one.

Who cares what year it was

Um, your specific claim was that last year we had both the highest vaccine coverage ever and a huge outbreak.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

I can smell the fear in the continual need to moderate

Let's see....

Who cares what year it was, the whooping cough vaccine is bullsh[]t

Poor, stupid Philip Hills.

Last year is 2012 every year!

By justthestats (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

Come on political pig what about vaccine induced narcolepsy then – 800 kids have that now

With hundreds of cases in the UK! Oh, wait.

Who cares what year it was

Just like with the "new (2009) NICE guidelines," right, Phildo?

ht[]p://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6128a1.htm

Here it is clear that the whooping cough vaccine is bullsh[]t

Amazingly, Phildo still can't find the correct CDC item. Let's check with this one:

"Valid vaccination history was available for 1,829 of 2,006 (91.2%) patients aged 3 months–19 years. Overall, 758 of 1,000 (75.8%) patients aged 3 months–10 years were up-to-date with the childhood diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and acellular pertussis (DTaP) doses. Receipt of Tdap was documented in 97 of 225 (43.1%) patients aged 11–12 years and in 466 of 604 (77.2%) patients aged 13–19 years."

What does it not say? "Vaccine uptake according to the CDC was the highest ever."

Another "typo," I guess. What's the R₀ for pertussis, Phildo?

Short term memory issues? He certainly can't remember that if he uses a four-letter word it automatically puts him in moderation.

I am not Mr Hill and never have been
The extra denial of ever have being 'Mr Hill' in one's earlier life makes it all the more convincing.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

Hep B:
*The side effects of hepatitis B is a possibility of getting cancer, as well as a chronic infection of the liver. BUT unless you child is running a needle field, or lives in China or Africa the chance of getting Hep B is very slim! There is less than a 2 percent chance of a mother who has hep B transferring it to her child in the utero.
*The vaccine contains aluminum, yeast, and formaldehyde (Comvax/Recombivax). The CDC says this vaccine is contraindicated if you have a yeast allergy, but surely aluminum and formaldehyde don't cause any serious potential health risk either correct?

*Before the vaccine came out there was less than 10 percent of children that got affected. There is now a 0.001% incidence. Which many might think is good, however the SIDE EFFECTS OF THE HEP B ARE HORRIBLE! There have been 17,497 hospitalizations, injuries and deaths from the vaccines in 90’s as well as 73 deaths in children under 14 years old in the 90’s from the vaccine. In 96 there were 1080 adverse reactions in children under 1, and 47 deaths. There have been 60,000 adverse reactions to the vaccine causing autoimmune conditions and demyelinating conditions. The following conditions are included: Lupus, arthritis, RA, and GBS Shaw et al (1988); Tuohy (1989); Khamaisi (2004). Bells Palsy, transverse myelitis, and MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS are also side effects of this vaccine Harvard School of Public Health (2004); WHO (1990); Nedler (1993).

Ingredients in Vaccines:
*Aluminum (mcg) is in:
DTaP (Daptacel 330 mcg, Tripedia 170 mcg & Infranrix 625 mcg)
Hep B (Recombivax 250 mcg & Engerix-B 250 mcg)
Prevnar (125)
PedVaxHIB (225 mcg)
Hep A (Vaqta 250 mcg & Havrix 250 mcg)
Gardasil (225 mcg)
Pentacel (HiB, DTaP, Polio 300 mcg)
Pediarix (HBV, DTaP, Polio 300 mcg)
I will let you do the research on how aluminum is harmful, since I am just a ND.

Varicella:

According to the CDC in 2003, there were 8 deaths (6 children) who died from the chickenpox.
Outbreaks are simnifically HIGHER in schools that have a high vaccinated population for chickenpox, but I guess the vaccine still works perfect.
Before the vaccine was introduced there was 25: 1,000,000 deaths (including adults, so not just children..) (Seaward et al. JAMA 2004).
Most of the deaths that occur from chickenpox are people over the age of 20, so once again not a child. (Meyer et al, J Infect Dis 2000;182:383-90)

@ Krebiozen
You stated:
That’s odd, there’s no mention of transverse myelitis or GBS as adverse events associated with the varicella vaccine on the CDC page that deals with the vaccine.

Look above and I listed the references for this information. You are right it is not on the CDC website, nor is a lot of information, for the obvious reason that they are biased and are pitching vaccines!

You also stated:
No it isn’t. Practically no children’s vaccines have contained any thimerosal for the past decade or more, yet autism incidence has not fallen, and large well-designed studies find no link. I’ll leave you with some conclusions of this paper (PDF) published by the AAP in 2013

*Now, you are saying that thermosal is not used anymore in vaccines, but you are wrong. The CDC states that it is still used in the multi dose flu vaccine, which I am sure your child has. Now of course, the CDC says that this ingredient is not harmful, but yet they took it out of several vaccines that it used to be in, why is that if it is so good for you?

@Chris
You stated:
Only a really sick in the head person would want to have a child get sick just to avoid a shingles vaccine. I got a shingles vaccine, there was nothing to it. Go get one yourself and stop encouraging parents to make sure their kids get sick.

*Good for you, go get your children vaccinated, but you need to gather all of your facts first instead of just listening to one persons view or the CDC.

By Arizona ND (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

Arizona ND: Do you have any idea how much aluminum there is? If the tiny amount in a vaccine could harm humans, we'd all be dead by now.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

BUT unless you child is running a needle field, or lives in China or Africa the chance of getting Hep B is very slim! There is less than a 2 percent chance of a mother who has hep B transferring it to her child in the utero.

Moving of the goalposts duly noted.

Before the vaccine came out there was less than 10 percent of children that got affected. There is now a 0.001% incidence. Which many might think is good, however the SIDE EFFECTS OF THE HEP B ARE HORRIBLE! There have been 17,497 hospitalizations, injuries and deaths from the vaccines in 90’s as well as 73 deaths in children under 14 years old in the 90’s from the vaccine.

See above. Nothing like a purported naturopath demonstrating a complete inability to reason its way out of a wet paper bag.

Ken@285: Which is a lot more aluminum than in a vaccine. Does drowning mean that drinking water is a bad idea?

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

Compare and contrast:

Occupational exposure (often well above the amount anyone else is ever exposed to)
Daily normal exposure (since you cannot ever avoid all aluminum it is everywhere)
Amount of aluminum in vaccines (in that tiny syringe in that tiny amount of liquid they put in).

And yet, the sole point of aluminum in vaccines is to 'adjuvate' inflammation; So, a *little dab 'll do ya*?

Two possible factors for the increase of VAS at this time were the introduction in 1985 of vaccines for rabies and feline leukemia virus (FeLV) that contained aluminum adjuvant, and a law in 1987 requiring rabies vaccination in cats in Pennsylvania. In 1993, a causal relationship between VAS and administration of aluminum adjuvanted rabies and FeLV vaccines was established through epidemiologic methods

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine-associated_sarcoma

@Gray Falcon:

Ken has lately taken to wandering around various threads and posting single sentence comments with links that she either has not read or is unable to comprehend. I've grown rather bored with her.

Arizona ND: "but you need to gather all of your facts first instead of just listening to one persons view or the CDC."

I have gathered lots of information, and not just from the CDC. It happens that the varicella vaccine was developed in Japan, and there is lots of data from there. Also the varicella vaccine never contained thimerosal nor aluminum.

You are an ND, which around here is defined as "Not a Doctor." Further, you decided to go on about other vaccines (Hep B), by cutting and pasting from NVIC. Not a bright move.

Also, you seem to have reading comprehension problems. My kids got chicken pox a yea before the vaccine was available, one was only six months old.

You are still an ignorant sadistic child hater.

Ken has lately taken to wandering around various threads and posting single sentence comments with links that she either has not read or is unable to comprehend.

In the case of #285, a link to a press-release from Exley the career aluminium alarmist. I missed the part where we agreed that press releases were evidential.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

JGC: "You mean, since the introduction of routine vaccination against chicken pox? Far fewer than died in the years prior to its introduction. That was your point, right–how the vaccine has effectively reduced the incidence of infection, hospitalizatiosn and deaths due to chicken pox?"

Not to mention the vaccine has a positive economic impact (parents won't have to use sick days to stay with kids) and more importantly it helps lower the misery index. I remember having chicken pox- it was one of the few times in my life when I wished for non-existence. (I wasn't exactly suicidal, I just didn't want a body.)

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

800 kids with narcolepsy to 'protect' against a mythical disease that only existed in Pharma stats. If that's progress...........

If you need 100% for herd immunity it's never going to happen. it's win win with vaccines even when it fails. That's a snake oil charm if ever there was one.

Still not Mr Hill and never was - Narad the red

Short term memory issues?

I've also wondered about state-dependent learning, but this one has become such an incoherent* standby of late that I'm unwilling to rule out the possibility that he's doing it deliberately so that he can immediately screech about "censorship" that has usually vanished by the time most people even notice the presence of his cluster ejaculations.

Anyway, since Phildo is demonstrably unable to get his shіt together by his lonesome, this is what he's been attempting to "refer" to:

"ELIZABETH WEISE [USA Today]: Hi, thanks for taking my question. You say the rates of illness are going up. You say they are cyclical. Is this part of the cycle or is it related to efforts by some to encourage people not to be vaccinated?

"ANNE SCHUCHAT: Yes, thank you for that question. We think there are many things going on. Pertussis is a cyclical disease [i.e., compartmental models apply] and the vaccines are not perfect. So even with increasing vaccination coverage, we expect to still have cycles. We think there are some unusual epidemiologic features that have caused us to launch a more detailed investigation in Washington State. Waning of immunity or a weakening of the time or waning of protection over time may be part of the story that we're seeing. On the other hand, we know that people who are not vaccinated have about an eight times higher risk of disease than people who are vaccinated [generously]. We know there are places around the country where there are large numbers of people who aren't vaccinated. However, we don't think those exemptors are driving this current wave. We think it is a bad thing that people aren't getting vaccinated or exempting, but we cannot blame this wave on that phenomenon."

That's it.

* The comments of Philip Hills, Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex's reverse-SEO failure, have suggested that he "thinks" there are multiple moderators.

If you need 100% for herd immunity it’s never going to happen.

Explain SEIR models, Phildo. Pay special attention to mixing and the role of ring vaccination on the population scale. Please also specify which diseases "need 100% for herd immunity"; this latter will require you to define the term, by the way.

ArizonaNotADoctor:

BUT unless you child is running a needle field, or lives in China or Africa the chance of getting Hep B is very slim!

Given that: Hep B can survive outside the body for two weeks and the blood, urine, saliva and other bodily fluids of Hep B infected children contain infectious levels of Hep B, I'd say hogwash.

There is less than a 2 percent chance of a mother who has hep B transferring it to her child in the utero.

Citation needed.

There have been 17,497 hospitalizations, injuries and deaths from the vaccines in 90’s as well as 73 deaths in children under 14 years old in the 90’s from the vaccine. In 96 there were 1080 adverse reactions in children under 1, and 47 deaths. There have been 60,000 adverse reactions to the vaccine causing autoimmune conditions and demyelinating conditions.

Citation needed, and not from VAERS. Just because an adverse event is reported to VAERS doesn't mean the vaccine caused it.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

And I note that Arizona ND doesn't address many other points made in numerous posts...Especially the ones related to autism...Odd that...

in the utero.

Really, Arizona ND? Do you mean "in the uterus"? Or were you stretching for in utero but you fecked up the cargo-cult Power Words? If an illiterate English / Latin hodgepodge does not convince us of the depth of your learning, then nothing will.

At any rate, the risk of an unborn fetus acquiring maternal hepatitis in the womb is a piece of hand-wavy persiflage and legerdemain -- it is completely feckin' irrelevant -- because it omits the whole "being born" business, which you may not remember, but I assure you that it contains blood and body fluids, and that's where the risk occurs of vertical hep-B transmission.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 08 Apr 2015 #permalink

Some people have the balls to get a fυcking booster shot [for VZV] should such a situation arise (see: diphtheria) rather than whining like stuck pigs that not enough children are falling ill to obviate that inconvenience.

Or as I sometimes put it:
"Granny doesn't want to risk getting shingles, sweetie - so she'd rather we let you all come down with chickenpox. It's OK, you'll only be sick a week or so, and you only have a small chance of dying"

More anti-vaccine fol de rol:

Kent Heckenlively** ( AoA) reviews Kennedy's appearance at SF's Commonwealth Club: the latter told an audience of 250 that he didn't see autism years ago when his family started what later became the Special Olympics.

He will carry on at a rally in Sacramento***later today in opposition to tightened rules about vaccine exemptions. I expect that the usual suspects will make a big deal about it.

** his own appearance there is on hold.
*** I always expected Sacramento to be ' not much' but discovered to my surprise that it was quite interesting.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 08 Apr 2015 #permalink

@Johnny

a mythical disease that only existed in Pharma stats

My sick leave balance says otherwise.

it’s win win with vaccines even when it fails. That’s a snake oil charm if ever there was one.

Care to explain why incidence of VPDs plummets whenever most people in a given area are vaccinated then? That doesn't sound like snake oil to me.

Still not Mr Hill and never was

Will you ever be?

By justthestats (not verified) on 08 Apr 2015 #permalink
a mythical disease that only existed in Pharma stats

My sick leave balance says otherwise.

I'm pretty sure the Subcontinent is unlikely to be convinced by some dumbfυck Essex osteopath, as well.

800 kids with narcolepsy

Or in the Beeb version,
75 children aged four to 18 who developed narcolepsy about the time Pandemrix was rolled out. Of these, 18 had received Pandemrix.
Eighteen... 800... near enough, right?

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 08 Apr 2015 #permalink

@HDB - why on Earth would he be interested in actual facts?

"We know there are places around the country where there are large numbers of people who aren’t vaccinated. However, we don’t think those exemptors are driving this current wave. ..." Anne Schatcat.

Thanks for that Narad, so according to your quote the officials are telling us non vaxxers do not drive disease outbreak waves. Well we all know that, nothing new here, you gotta stop frigging and writing - you are posting gems. However hard you try, and I know it upsets you to be wrong, I am not Mr Hill and never have been. You, on the other hand are still a wanker and until it finally falls off you always will be. You must totally hate children to keep insisting they join the national autistic program.

Nice stats massage Herr less. You know it's interesting, you can always spot a vaccine believer. When the national press and national TV run documentaries on how shit a vaccine is, there will always be a corner of vaccine city with a huddle of vaccine lovies. What one really needs to do is quietly powder the lot of them with their own jollop and push them off a cliff. It is tricky though, dealing with waste that toxic would require some thinking.

One can only dream. I am sure there are some people praying for you somewhere

Johnny, are you making stuff up again? Or did you use the wrong name? I can't find that comment in any link that Narad has posted here.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 08 Apr 2015 #permalink

@ Julian

It's from #254. A nice minequote, but a true one.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 08 Apr 2015 #permalink

I am not Mr Hill and never have been. You, on the other hand are still a wanker and until it finally falls off you always will be.

Phildo, I don't think I'm the only one who has noticed your sudden, obsessive interest – to the point of idiotic tedium – in masturbation.

Does this have anything to do with your at least twice resorting to insulting your wife and her profession? It's not as though you have the slightest chance of ever anonymously getting away with your routinizined script again, and there's no sign of any executive function going on between your ears, so a parsimonious model leads directly to a need for some unifying, animal principle.

Nice stats massage Herr less. .. When the national press and national TV run documentaries on how shit a vaccine is, there will always be a corner of vaccine city with a huddle of vaccine lovies.

When I quoted from Johnny Labile's own Beeb article -- the one he had chosen to cite, as the strongest support for his "800 kids with narcolepsy" fiction -- I made a little bet with myself. "Will Labile be stupid enough to complain about the biassed, cherry-picked nature of my source?" I am glad to see him oblige, and that I win the bet, for now I must reward myself with two pints of Fullers 1845.

I don’t think I’m the only one who has noticed your sudden, obsessive interest – to the point of idiotic tedium – in masturbation.

If I were Mrs Hills I would be checking the browser history on the home computers.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 09 Apr 2015 #permalink

In this argument it was quite likely that Mrs Donovan signed the form from the school without reading it, and now she is mad with herself for doing it and she is trying to find fault with the school because she is an anti-vax parent. To most anti-vax parents other children whose parents are trying to do everything they can to prevent their children from getting sick, does not exist.
I feel these anti-vax parents are just self-centered, I mean if you can avoid your child from any possible suffering wouldn’t you do it ? I myself was vaccinated as a baby and I am very thankful for my parents for doing it. A vaccine shot reduces the risk of a child or even an adult getting any of these diseases.
u15031642

When I quoted from Johnny Labile’s own Beeb article — the one he had chosen to cite, as the strongest support for his “800 kids with narcolepsy” fiction — I made a little bet with myself. “Will Labile be stupid enough to complain about the biassed, cherry-picked nature of my source?”

It's only biased when you read and comprehend it impartially.

Hey Ann, you can choose to ignore known facts or bury your head up Narad's poo shute, that is your choice and I commend you for it. How about asking Narad why he can't watch a proper doctor tell us that spraying kids with DDT is not treatment.

I'd love to hear his views on this documentary - actually what do you think, or don't you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twch-T-n8Ns

Still not Mr Hilllll and never was

What "known facts" are being ignored by Ann, Johnny?

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 13 Apr 2015 #permalink