Eight months ago, I asked the question: Did chiropractic manipulation of her neck cause Katie May’s stroke? Now, it appears, I know the answer, and the answer is yes:
Katie May, a model who posed for Playboy and gained a massive following on Snapchat, suffered a “catastrophic” stroke in early February and later died after being taken off life-support. Now, TMZ reports reports that a visit to the chiropractor left her with an injury that precipitated the stroke.
TMZ obtained May’s death certificate, which says that she suffered a blunt force injury during a “neck manipulation by [a] chiropractor.” That injury tore an artery in her neck and cut off blood flow to her brain, which led to the stroke that killed her.
Several of you e-mailed me news reports of the coroner’s finding (as well as other stories referencing the TMZ story). To be honest, I had forgotten about this story, not having heard anything about it since I blogged about it in February, and I was surprised at how this update came seemingly out of the blue. I would have loved to see the actual autopsy report, rather than a snippet of it quoted by TMZ and other magazines, but I take what I can get.
Before this story, I have to admit that I didn’t know who Katie May was, but I did learn that she was known as the “Queen of Snapchat,” for her posting of photos of herself in which she was scantily clad. Indeed, between Instagram and Snapchat, she had quite the social media empire going. At the time of her death, she was only 34 years old and left behind a seven year old daughter. It was a horrible, tragic tale. May was young and building a business, and her death was completely unnecessary, making it even more depressing to contemplate.
Here’s what happened. Late last January, May was doing a photo shoot. It’s unclear exactly how it happened, but somehow it did happen. May fell—hard—and hit her neck or head on something. Afterward, she complained of neck pain that was intense enough that she apparently went to the emergency room to be checked out. Actually, stories differ here, with what her family said, namely that she never sought medical care. Be that as it may, we do know that May went to a chiropractor for a neck adjustment, as she Tweeted soon afterward:
Pinched a nerve in my neck on a Photoshoot and got adjusted this morning. It really hurts! Any home remedy suggestions loves? XOXO
— Katie May (@Ms_katiemay) January 29, 2016
Two days later, May responded to a fan who asked how her neck was feeling:
Thanks love! It still hurts, going back to chiropractor tomorrow xoxoxo https://t.co/xTw080sjrK
— Katie May (@Ms_katiemay) February 1, 2016
So May went to her chiropractor on February 1. That evening, she collapsed and was rushed to the hospital. It was a Monday. By Thursday evening, she was removed from life support, and died a few hours later.
If you read my previous post on the Katie May, you might remember that I spent a lot of verbiage in my own inimitable fashion going over a couple of questions. First, was it a stroke from chiropractic manipulation that killed Katie May? Second, what is the evidence base covering chiropractic manipulation and stroke? As part of the second discussion, I pointed out that, while the evidence base supporting chiropractic manipulation as a cause of strokes due to occlusion of the vertebral or basilar arteries is pretty convincing, the evidence that chiropractic manipulation can cause carotid artery injury is much less convincing.
It’s also less plausible, too, given that there is a clear physical mechanism for injury to the vertebral arteries. To help you see why, I thought it would be worthwhile to post this picture again, laying out the anatomy of the vertebrobasilar system. Basically, two very important arteries that supply blood to the brain pass through the two highest vertebrae, the atlas (C1, so named because it was thought to support the head the way the mythical Atlas held up the earth) and the axis (C2). Importantly for understanding how chiropractic could cause vertebrobasilar strokes, the vertebral arteries are tethered to the spine and make a big loop around the atlas before entering the skull and merging to form the basilar artery (click to embiggen):
It’s not difficult to see how a rapid rotation of the head could potentially stretch the basilar arteries. Generally, chiropractors describe this as “high velocity, low amplitude” (HVLA), which it is, but, given the constraints of vertebral artery anatomy, high amplitude is not required to cause injury. With HVLA, it is quite possible to tear the intima (the lining of the artery consisting of vascular endothelial cells). Intimal tears become “sticky” for platelets, leading them to lodge there and start to form a clot. This is the same reason atherosclerotic plaques can lead to strokes when they are in the carotid artery and can cause myocardial infarctions (death of heart muscle; a.k.a., a heart attack) when in the coronary arteries. The “rough” area of the plaque is thrombogenic; i.e., has a tendency to attract platelets and cause clots. When a clot forms in such an injured area of intima, regardless of where the artery is, one of three things can happen. It can resolve completely, which is what usually happens; it can resolve but leave a narrowed segment of the artery as it resolves; or it can break off and flow further downstream, there to lodge where the artery narrows and block blood flow. When that happens in the brain, it’s called a stroke.
Now, take a look at chiropractic neck manipulation:
And here’s another example:
And still more:
You get the idea. If you cringe when you hear the pop during the violent twist given to the neck, you’re not alone. So do I. It is that “high velocity, low amplitude” (HVLA) twist that can injure the intima of the artery, setting up the condition for a stroke. What surprises me is that the risk isn’t much higher than what studies show. The human body is more resilient than one would imagine, and, absent pre-existing atherosclerotic disease, the risk remains low. On the other hand, given that there is no benefit from HVLA chiropractic neck manipulation, the risk-benefit ratio is basically infinity, because the potential benefit is zero. Also, the risk might be small, but, as Katie May shows us, the the consequences of that risk can be catastrophic.
Another aspect I discussed was whether Katie May’s stroke could have been due to the trauma she suffered at her photo shoot a day or two before her first chiropractic manipulation. Now that we know, assuming that TMZ is accurately relaying the results of the coroner’s report, that May had a tear in her left vertebral artery, it’s almost certain that the chiropractor accidentally killed her through neck manipulation. That is what the coroner concluded, that this injury to her vertebral artery occurred during chiropractic neck manipulation.
In the end, there is no longer any reasonable doubt. Katie May’s death was unnecessary and due to her subjecting herself to the quackery that is chiropractic.
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The same old story, another unnecessary death.
Medical examiners' autopsy reports are generally considered to be a matter of public record. You should be able to get a copy of the report upon request, but, of course, I do not know the details of the law in every state.
Sad to hear about it, but unfortunately it's not exactly surprising. Neck injuries are already dangerous, intentionally pulling and twisting without real understanding of the underlying tissues or potential damage already present is just... ugh. But then again these aren't real doctors so expecting them to keep the same level of professionalism is just as insane.
Also, I think you accidentally left out the picture at the start of your explanation, Orac.
"What surprises me is that the risk isn’t much higher than what studies show."
While I don't doubt that stroke due to chiropractic manipulation damaging neck arteries is highly uncommon, one suspects it is underreported especially in the elderly, who have more risk factors which are suspected instead of the manipulations they may have had over a period of time.
As Orac notes, this devastating complication of neck cracking is indefensible given the lack of evidence for clinical benefit.*
*chiros like to cite a study claiming that neck cracking lowers blood pressure, without mentioning that it was a small, short-term pilot study employing a specialized technique not in general use by chiros.
science judge, jury and executioner. who are you, really? An AMA board member Pharma-science pimp?
I can't watch that stupidly dangerous neck-wrenching that chiroquackters do. There is so much in the neck (besides those arteries) that can be damaged by the arrogant stupidity of chiros.
Chris@5: I'm with you on that. A few years ago Orac had a short post which included a video of chiropractic being practiced on a duck. I commented at the time that the duck wasn't faring much better than Daffy did at the hands of Hugo the Abominable Snowman. The important difference being that when it happens to a cartoon duck it can be considered Amusing Injuries. When it happens to a living creature, let alone a human ... I'll just say that the concept is so sick, if I had that practitioner's address I'd send him a get well card.
Out of curiosity, I attended equine chiropractic lectures at our state veterinary conference 3 wks ago...
In complete seriousness the presenter explained that Palmer practiced thousands of adjustments on CHICKENS, since if he messed it up, at least someone could have the "patient" for dinner! (nervous laughter all around)
Now I have known clients who swear by chiro for their horses (hence my interest), but obviously it would be much more difficult for human to inflict trauma on equine spine using only bare hands (which is all that this lecturer endorsed).
Unfortunately there are idiots out there striking horses w/levers & mallets!
Sincere question: are there situations in which chiropractic adjustment does have demonstrated benefits? E.g., could they in any circumstances help, say, back issues? I keep hearing conflicting things on this.
@Quackattack : if Orac really was all this, don't you think he would have been much more directly accusing in his earlier article about this case ?
When I posted my comment, D.B.'S comment wasn't yet visible. Thank you.
A number of years ago our local paper did a story on one of the local chiropractors who travelled to Haiti to do a charity clinic. He proudly stated that he did over 50 neck manipulations the first night, even though there was not enough time to evaluate the recipients of his "care" first. Utter incompetence exemplified.
@Dorit: there have been some studies showing that chiros can have a positive effect on occurances of short-term, acute back pain. On the other hand, the effects aren't any different than those obtained by a good, certified PT or licensed massage therapist. Probably the only benefit I see is my insurance will pay for the chiro or PT visits, not the LMT.
Giving props to the PTs, I know they always institute a home exercise program for the patient. I haven't ever gone to a chiro so I don't know if they do the same.
My friends who go to chiros swear by their regular adjustments but look at me blankly when I ask if they have a home program. So my guess is the chiros like to keep the suckers patients coming in rather than teaching them to prevent future problems.
Of course they do. A few years ago, Clay Jones wrote an article at SBM about "chiropractic practice building" describing how they do that. A friend of mine found it sufficiently illuminating to stop seeing a chiro and go to a PT.
Orac wrote a perfectly reasonable post on a risky chiropractic maneuver that appears to have cost this young woman her life. Now comes Quackattack, reaching deep into his or her bag of oratorical skills, to cry "Pharma Puppet!" Let's review Quackattacks brilliant riposte:
"science judge, jury and executioner. who are you, really? An AMA board member Pharma-science pimp?"
Note how Quackattack deftly dissected Orac's argument and constructed a brilliant defense of cervical HVLA maneuvers in particular and chiropractic in general.
I stand in awe. Oh wait. That isn't awe, it's pig manure.
My doctor recommended a chiro after I had terrible neck pain after being rear ended. My insurance paid for it, so I went and I did fell better enough to continue when I went to California, and later when I moved to North Carolina.
But getting an adjustment always made me nervous, and the NC chiros (I saw several) scared me to death. My California chiro, it may surprise you to read, never pushed other woo on me. He merely suggested diet and exercise to lose weight and improve muscle tone.
My NC chiro was full on woo. Charts showing how manipulation affected this nerve, affecting this organ system and I knew it was all bogus. Then the display stands selling very expensive vitamins and other stuff I never bought. He was rough, and he terrified me.
I dropped chiro like a hot brick. Never again.
"science judge, jury and executioner. who are you, really?"
I'm thinking of changing my username to Cunning Old Fury.
A Chiropractor next door to my favorite coffee shop also "adjusts" dogs. I've watched him come out front to treat dogs that people bring, primarily tapping on their back with s rubber mallet. The owners swear their old or arthritic animals feel better, or have more mobility.
I’m thinking of changing my username to Cunning Old Fury.
They prefer to be called "kindly ones".
Eric @7 -- I'm sure I'm not the first to point out that practicing chiropractic on a duck adds a whole new dimension to the term "quackery".
The author stated: "it’s almost certain that the chiropractor accidentally killed her through neck manipulation."
This is a pretty serious allegation. Is there any way a blood clot could have been initiated by the fall only to dislodge a few days later? In a way completely unrelated to the chiropractor?
I don't know much about the clotting process, except that fibrin and Vitamins A, K, and C are involved.
I pop my neck all the time for relief of neck pain. Swear by it. But the way I do it is pretty benign. I simply put the back of my head under a table and my arms above it similar to the way a cop might tell you to put your hands behind your head. I relax my neck and push with my arms above the table and my head below. My neck pops. That is when the disk's are compressed. After a while of doing this it doesn't pop anymore because my neck never get's a chance to become compressed and I don't have any of the pain associated with the compression. So while I don't agree with chiropracs claims of curing disease, I suspect the relief they give patient's is real at least when it comes to back and neck pain. Because what they do probably decompresses joints in a round about way similar to what I do. So for someone who doesn't know how to do this, and the extraordinary claims of curing disease as an added benefit. It probably seems like a great deal.
Haha this article is so bias it's hilarious. Youre a 1,000 times more likely to die going to a hospital than a chiropractor. The 3rd leading cause of death in the US is medical errors by MDs. http://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2139
Your chances of a stroke from a chiropractor is less than .00000008%. There's plenty of studies on this. Use any scientific journal. Studies show that patients who have died from a stroke after an adjustment had pre existing conditions. There are plenty of benefits for neck adjustments and published journal articles show it that as well. Instead of reading this guys poor article, here is a published journal article on the risks.http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0161475408003473
Here's another profession article since the author was too lazy to do anyou research on his/her own.
1 out of 25 chiropractors in a 50 year span of practicing will have a patient with a preexisting fall or condition that sets then up to have a stroke. The average chiropractor gives 80 adjustments a day. 240 days of work a year gives 19,200 adjustments a year leave you at 960,000 adjustments in ONE chiropractors lifetime. Katie May was roughly 1 out of 24 million people who got adjusted. Read the published articles I posted.
There still might be more to the mystery. Katie May might have had an underlying disorder of her arteries which predisposed her to dissection. One I am familiar with is Fibromuscular Dysplasia (FMD), which affects mainly women of all ages. It can be found in any arterial bed and commonly in the carotids and vertebrals. Those diagnosed with it are to avoid chiropractic manipulations, roller coasters, yoga, etc., anything that causes stress and torquing of those affected arteries. Unfortunately, the diagnosis comes after a medical crisis - stroke, coronary dissection, etc. and in some cases during autopsy if the coroner is familiar with the manifestations of the disease. It would be interesting to note whether the autopsy report described tortuosity, beading (dilation and stenosis), S-curve of those arteries. Very sad story, but hopefully more information with surface.
Katie S @ #22 -- Yes, the medical examiner's report was specific about the cause being directly related to the chiropractic manipulation, albeit an accidental cause of death, for what that's worth.
Vertebral artery tears/strokes is a very uncommon type of stroke. When it does occur it is usually related to a minor injury or awkward movement. Examples include; putting your head back at a beauty salon to have your hair washed, turning your head while driving to see what’s behind you, or even possibly a chiropractic adjustment. When this occurs it usually leads to unilateral neck pain. This pain will often bring a patient to a doctor’s office (Primary care or Chiropractic). Over the next few days, after the initial trauma to the artery, a clot develops then breaks (embolism) away causing an acute tear in the artery and the stroke (in the brain). In this case, it is far more likely that she suffered the vertebral artery injury during her fall. She then went to the Chiropractor for treatment and the stroke is unrelated to the treatment itself. Likely, she would’ve had the same result if she went to a primary care physician and did not see a Chiropractor at all. Very few doctors would order vertebral artery ultrasound to have diagnosed it. Even fewer doctors would be able to get the test actually performed before the stroke occurred. The medical examiner will not be able to support his/her position in court. The case will probably never go to trial (nor should it.)
Chiropractic care is very safe, many studies prove this.Medicine is the 3rd leading cause of death in the US, studies prove this. its interesting to see the medical bigotry and outdated dogma being presented as fact. Ive been in practice for 17 years. Ive given thousands of neck adjustments. http://www.cureus.com/articles/4155-systematic-review-and-meta-analysis…
nearly 700 deaths a day — about 9.5 percent of all deaths annually in the United States.
Makary said he and co-author Michael Daniel, also from Johns Hopkins, conducted the analysis to shed more light on a problem that many hospitals and health-care facilities try to avoid talking about.
Although all providers extol patient safety and highlight the various safety committees and protocols they have in place, few provide the public with specifics on actual cases of harm due to mistakes. Moreover, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention doesn’t require reporting of errors in the data it collects about deaths through billing codes, making it hard to see what’s going on at the national level.
[Does your surgeon have enough practice to operate on you?]
The CDC should update its vital statistics reporting requirements so that physicians must report whether there was any error that led to a preventable death, Makary said.
“We all know how common it is,” he said. “We also know how infrequently it’s openly discussed.”
Kenneth Sands, who directs health-care quality at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, an affiliate of Harvard Medical School, said that the surprising thing about medical errors is the limited change that has taken place since the IOM report came out. Only hospital-acquired infections have shown improvement. “The overall numbers haven’t changed, and that’s discouraging and alarming,” he said.
[A doctor removed the wrong ovary, and other nightmare tales from California licensing records]
Sands, who was not involved in the study published in the BMJ, formerly known as the British Medical Journal, said that one of the main barriers is the tremendous diversity and complexity in the way health care is delivered.
May 2016cover Consumer Reports recently investigated California licensing records and found that many doctors who were still practicing were on probation for serious violations of patient safety.
“There has just been a higher degree of tolerance for variability in practice than you would see in other industries,” he explained. When passengers get on a plane, there’s a standard way attendants move around, talk to them and prepare them for flight, Sands said, yet such standardization isn’t seen at hospitals. That makes it tricky to figure out where errors are occurring and how to fix them. The government should work with institutions to try to find ways improve on this situation, he said.
Firstly, an injury happens when a doctor doesn't do a proper history, exam and x-rays. Unfortunately, not everyone does that and I personally would not see one of those doctors. Even so, injury is extremely rare.
That being said, not one of those videos is showing a chiropractor that is adjusting properly and it is an embarrassment to the profession that those guys are posting these videos.
And what did you say earlier about us being inferior PT's? Ha! I find it interesting that PT's in every state are trying to get it passed that they are allowed to do manipulations to the spine. Why, if adjustments don't do anything, would they want to do that? Interesting. Well you want a bad adjustment go to one of those guys who do a weekend class and get a certificate then try to go and adjust. PT's are glorified personal trainers and you can get any stupid exercise they give you by going to YouTube. Give me a break.
To say chiropractic is quackery and pseudoscience is ignorance. You have obviously not seen the research of every disease imaginable being eliminated or reduced drastically because of SPECIFIC chiropractic adjustments. I won't go into the endless list. Literally endless. Traditional acupuncturist manipulate the spine and spinal manipulation can be dated back to the ancient Egyptians.
Not because chiropractic heals a certain ailment but because balance is restored to the body and the body itself does the healing. It's real simple.
So asthma and other things you mentioned in the previous post IS related to the spine because everything is related to the spine. That is where the central nervous system is which is the lifeline of the body, the communication line of body. If the central nervous system can't relay nerve impulses from the brain to the organs and then back to the brain at 100% then it can't be optimal and any number of things can develop. Again, real simple concept.
If all the miraculous healing that have been reported were not true why would this profession be as large as it is and around since 1895? Why does Nike hire a chiropractor and send him to the olympics to take care of all the athletes it sponsors?
Why does every professional sports team have a chiropractor?
Why are you so mad? Because you chose the wrong profession?
Find a Gonstead practitioner and find out what chiropractic really is.
Lastly, you want to talk about what is harmful? Why don't we talk about how many people die every year from medicine. 20,000 from prescription drugs every year. 20,000!!! However, is that the TOTAL number of deaths caused by conventional medicine is an astounding 783,936 per year. Wake up people!!! Don't be distracted by all the medical bull they are shoving down your throat!
I'll take my great diet and a chiropractic adjustment any day.
Philip @ 27
You are hypothesizing that she tore her vertebral artery in the fall. If this was the case, do you think it was a good idea for the chiro to be adjusting her neck?
Are neck adjustments conta-indicated in the case of neck pain or headache after a traumatic injury?
Without details of the autopsy findings, we are not in a position to question the findings of the medical examiner.
The number of cases of stroke from vertebral artery tear temporally linked to chiropractic manipulation continues to grow. While you will not find anyone here who will overstate the strength of anecdotal evidence, I think you have to concede that it is at least PLAUSIBLE that chiropractic high velocity neck manipulation could cause a vertebral artery tear. Your post indicates that you, like the bulk of the chiropractic community, prefers to dismiss these cases as coincidence, rather that face up to the POSSIBILITY that neck manipulation, every once in a while, is killing otherwise healthy young individuals. Unfortunately, every single DC I've spoken to about this issue is in complete denial mode.
Until chiropractic acknowledges this possibility and seriously attempts to answer the question as to the safety and effectiveness of its practices, then expect the medical community to continue to view your chose profession with a degree of disdain.
A couple of decades ago, the allergist community faced up the the fact that allergy shots had the disturbing tendency to, every once in a rare while, cause a fatal allergic reaction. The profession set about addressing the problem head on by collecting data on these events, understanding the risk factors, developing guidelines, and setting contraindications for administering allergy shots. Every year, members of the professional societies are surveyed regarding shot reactions , both within their own clinics, but also regarding any within their community. These efforts have resulted in a dramatic decline in the number of fatalities.
I should point out that, unlike neck manipulation, the benefits of allergy shots are well established and have been proven in numerous well controlled trials.
If you chose to defend your professional practices, then don't do it by pretending that nothing could possibly be wrong. Establish a registry of cases, actively solicit reports, and above all, you desperately need to establish through rigorous clinical trials that: a) what you are doing has benefit and b) establishes and quantifies the risk .
Marc Rogers @28: You echo a point made earlier, that people die in hospitals, but people almost never die at the chiropractor.
May I suggest that this is at least in part because when you're in a car accident, the ambulance takes you to a hospital, not a chriopractor? Yes, there is risk to medical procedures, but that is because there is also known benefits. For example: all surgery has risks that include death. But many surgeries are also life-saving.
Chiro has risks, as described above, but how many lives has it saved?
Medicine must do better, but be honest, in an emergency, you're still going to call 911.
Wow, how is it that we are completely ignoring the fact that prior to the adjustment, she fell * hard * and hit her head/neck?? Gee, wonder if that kind of blunt trauma might have ultimately caused her death...??
You should read my first post about Katie May, which goes into this question much more deeply.
You guys know each other?
Is this your "applied kinesiology" joint, Sean?
Please list the chiropractors who are part of the regular-season medical team for every Major League Baseball franchise.
There is a reason that no university will associate with a chiropractic school. They have gotten where they are by having good political lobbyists and not by science.
People who work in neuro know that there are many many cases of this which are not correctly attributed to the chiropractor because the stroke doesn't happen immediately, it's usually delayed.
Earlier comment... " She then went to the Chiropractor for treatment and the stroke is unrelated to the treatment itself. Likely, she would’ve had the same result if she went to a primary care physician and did not see a Chiropractor at all. "
Thanks for answering my question. Now do you think that ORAC would have written two articles on that event?
This is an exceedingly rare event, and when something like this happens tho a vaccinated child, it is called an "anecdote" and brushed aside.
I sense double standards. For a website posing a representative of science, I would expect to see some statistics to impress upon us the idea that chiropractic-induced stroke might be something worth our consideration.
What is the chance of a fatal complication as a result of being prescribed opiates for this; and what is the relative risk ratio when compared to chiropractic manipulation?
"This is an exceedingly rare event, and when something like this happens tho a vaccinated child, it is called an “anecdote” and brushed aside."
A key difference is that in chiropractic-induced strokes, there is an established mechanism for stroke occurring in the setting of cervical artery damage, as well evidence of a forceful maneuver having occurred in the absence of any other explanation for such trauma. In many cases of "vaccine injury" there is no logical mechanism and no good association (temporal or otherwise) with vaccination.
Exceedingly rare serious complications due to vaccination occur secondary to a medically valuable and evidence-based intervention. Exceedingly rare* and devastating complications due to chiropractic neck-cracking are secondary to a procedure without demonstrated value. I hope you can see the difference.
*the evidence we have suggests that stroke due to chiropractic manipulation is "rare"; how "exceedingly rare" it is depends on recognition and reporting.
What seems to missing in this discussion seems to be the fact that there is now very high level of evidence that chiropractic manipulation doesn’t cause strokes. The most thorough study on the subject (a systemic review & meta-analysis) published earlier this year found that there is no evidence that chiropractic causes strokes https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4794386/.
More really strong evidence that there is no link between chiropractic & stroke was published last year when researchers analysed the data from over a million patient records & found that people were no more likely to suffer a stroke after seeing a chiropractor than after seeing a medical practitioner. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25596875
What we do know is that when the vertebral artery starts to rupture from other causes, this often causes neck pain & headaches etc. This prompts the patient to seek care from a health practitioner, often a chiropractor. The rupture will then progressively evolve over a period of several days before resulting in a stroke – not as a result of the practitioner’s interventions. An example of this was recently published in BMJ. In this case report a patient presented to hospital emergency department & was dismissed with a diagnosis of migraine. A few days later she presented to a chiropractor who made the correct diagnosis of vertebral artery rupture in evolution, quite probably saving the patient’s life. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25596875
In the tragic case of Katy May the blame on the chiropractor seems all stem from one trashy gossip magazine reporting of the coroner’s findings that the stroke was caused by the manipulation. The coroner’s report needs to be publically released before anyone jumps to conclusions. I would suggest that a more probable explanation is that Katie’s stroke was initially caused by the significant trauma that she suffered when she fell hard & hit her head hard during the photo shoot. She hurt herself badly enough to go the emergency room before consulting the chiropractor. The chiropractor was probably in the wrong place at the wrong time with a patient who was undergoing an evolving vertebral artery rupture.
Actually, I'd hardly call that second study high level evidence, given its retrospective nature and design. As for the meta-analysis, in actuality, the meta-analysis did find a weak association between chiropractic neck manipulation and stroke and then spent the entire discussion trying to explain it away—unconvincingly, in my assessment.
As Orac pointed out, even if the risk of injury or death from that sort of manipulation is low, it's not worth the risk because there is no benefit.
For those of you who like those odds, how about a bet? We each put up $100, and then get a computer to generate a random number between 1 and 50,000. If the random number is 8749, you give me $100. If it's any other number, we each keep our money.
You only have one change in 50,000 of losing, so how about it?
every disease imaginable being eliminated or reduced drastically because of SPECIFIC chiropractic adjustments
One seldom sees such commitment to a grift.
Why does every professional sports team have a chiropractor?
NZ chiropractors spend a lot of time whinging about the All Blacks' focus on winning games, and their refusal to have anything to with the scam.
#35-36 why yes Narad, that is my practice. Why? You need help with something?
You want me to list the 27 teams that have a chiropractor on staff? You want me to tell you the players I've personally seen?
Do some research
Who gives a damn what some athletes believe?
As we saw at the Olympics, there are athletes who believe in cupping.
Many professional athletes pray to a god to win and thank that god if they do well.
Several years ago, an NHL hockey team used to sit under a pyramid before games to "channel the energy of the universe" or some such twaddle.
There are athletes who have "lucky socks" or some other ritual they must perform before games or they believe they won't perform well.
Indeed we do. Around here, people who make claims of fact are told to put up evidence supporting those claims. So name those teams.
every disease imaginable being eliminated or reduced drastically because of SPECIFIC chiropractic adjustments
This is true in the preventative sense that for any given disease there is a "SPECIFIC chiropractic adjustment" that will prevent you from contracting or developing it.
Katie May, for instance, as a result of the specific chiropractic adjustment she received, will never develop cancer, or beri-beri, or epizootic sniggers. Or anything else.
You want me to list the 27 teams that have a chiropractor on staff?
Indeed we do
We would like a lot more than that, in that our informant told us initially (with his bare face hanging out) that "every professional sports team [has] a chiropractor". 27 teams? He can identify the staff chiropractor for every professional sports team in the world, or he can shut the feck up.
In response to Orac’s comments at #41.... I’m pleased to see that you concede that the highest level of evidence available the subject of chiropractic neck manipulation causing stroke shows only weak association. (ie. The Church et al meta-analysis https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4794386/). However, with respect, I’d suggest that you should question whether you are allowing your personal beliefs cloud your judgement when you dismiss the Church et all conclusion that there is ‘no convincing evidence’ that chiropractic manipulation causes cervical artery rupture as the authors trying to explain away any association at all. Church & all of his five co-authors are neurosurgeons. For what exact reason would you suggest that the authors purposefully try to skew their conclusions?
As for the Whedon study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25596875, you dismiss this because it was a retrospective study. Well it’s kinda hard to do a prospective study with 1,157,475 subjects! The study more than makes up for its retrospective nature by its vast volume of data analysis. You also criticise its design. This study is straight forward statistics. They analysed huge numbers of patient records & found that slightly fewer people had vertebrobasillar strokes following a visit to a chiropractor than following a visit to a general medical practitioner. The beauty of this sort of study is that it is just numbers. It is not open to bias in interpretation of results or being skewed by experimental methodology. What exactly is it that you object to in its design?
Now back to the Katie May tragedy. I’m interested to see that you make no response to my suggestion that it is more probable that Katie’s vertebrobasillar stroke was caused by hitting her head hard when she fell than the chiropractic treatment. Now we’ve established that, at best, there is only a weak association between chiropractic manipulation & vertebrobasillar strokes, while there is a clear & indisputable association between blunt head trauma & these strokes. So how can it possibly be logical to dismiss the fall to be the cause of the tragedy & be certain that the chiro did it?
I had a cervical chiropractic adjustment in 2012 that has left me with chronic pain and limited range of motion. Immediately after, felt really ill, bp 190/100. Called chiropractor and he said no available appointments to deal with issue but he would pray for me!!!! No more chiro for me. Despite what news saying. I think this stuff happens more often than reported. Cervical adjustments are just bad!!!
"...there is now very high level of evidence that chiropractic manipulation doesn’t cause strokes."
"I’m interested to see that you make no response to my suggestion that it is more probable that Katie’s vertebrobasillar stroke was caused by hitting her head hard when she fell than the chiropractic treatment."
I'm interested to see your conclusion that when a patient comes in with a history of minor cervical trauma, it's appropriate and harmless to perform forcible chiropractic neck wrenching.
Given that you've just conceded that your assertion that "every professional sports team [has] a chiropractor" is false,* I think my work is done here.
* There are 30 MLB franchises.
Narad, I'm glad your done because you have had nothing to offer to this conversation. I know there are 30 teams. 27 of them have chiropractors on staff. Ok, you got me. Is that the stuff you really want to split hairs on? I think my point is made.
Bottom line for all the closed minded negative trolls on here is that chiropractic isn't going anywhere. So continue to waste your time trying to discredit it. I'll continue to grow my practice and serve my community, this nation and the world.
I don't know why I bothered reading this hacks blog anyway. What a waste of time.
I'd be interested if you could provide links to the research on the specific chiropractic adjustments that would cure the following diseases:
- Large B-Cell lymphoma
- Type 1 diabetes
- Type 2 diabetes
I don’t know why I bothered reading this hacks blog anyway. What a waste of time.
And the portions are so small!
(said no-one about an Orac post, ever).
There are 30 franchises. These comprise over 100 professional teams.
That you're full of demonstrably preposterous shіt? Don't think before writing? Have transcended "straight" chiropractic in terms of fraudulence in action?
Yes, this point has been made very well.
^ Hey, who's the chiropractor for the Albuquerque Isotopes? The Lansing Lugnuts? I can't wait.
Yup, just like "applied kinesiology" and Roger McGuinn.
The Isotopes' front office staff and roster don't list any medical personnel, so it's hard to say.
But the Colorado Rockies do have directors for medical operations, physical performance, and a "psychical performance coach".
Nimrod, again nothing
O'Brien, there is no specific adjustment for those diseases. There is no diabeties bone or rabies bone and obviously you have named some things here that require medical attention. Type 2 diabeties though, can be prevented and often times reversed by eating properly. Don't ask stupid questions. However, can the body better deal with disease if the nervous system is functioning properly? By all means.
Chiropractic doesn't cure anything. It restores balance to the body and gives that person the ability to heal naturally.
Why would I list every single chiropractor associated with a pro sports team..? Look it up for crying out loud! It's not like it's hard to find. Start with your home town dum dums
And as for the douche talking about the All Blacks, I went to chiropractic college with 2!!! All Blacks and took the pitch with them!! So STFU!! Haha!
One final and a thing, cupping and all that other bullshit you saw during the olympics is not chiropractic.
"To say chiropractic is quackery and pseudoscience is ignorance. You have obviously not seen the research of every disease imaginable being eliminated or reduced drastically because of SPECIFIC chiropractic adjustments. I won’t go into the endless list. Literally endless."
Sean is right. Chiros are "growing their practices" right and left, while leaving behind the simpleminded idea that spinal manipulation is only good to a limited extent for musculoskeletal complaints.
I'm starting to see the marriage of chiropractic and functional medicine (think "Bride of Frankenstein"), exemplified by chiros who are members of the International Association of Neurometabolic Professionals, which legitimizes the care of such disorders as type II diabetes and "Female Hormones" (never knew that one was a disease, but live and learn):
Here's another one, who has eschewed false modesty with a becoming section on his website "What Makes Me Unique And Effective" (among his successes is treating ADHD):
The possibilities for making money through a combination of chiropractic and functional medicine are endless; I mean, literally endless.
Just make sure that in your ads, you call yourself "Doctor" a lot, and only mention the part about being a chiropractor in a line on the bottom in small print.
Namard, again you offer nothing
Why would I start the exhaustive list of chiropractictors associated with professional teams. It's not like it is a secret! My goodness look it up, start with your home town
There is no diabeties bone or rabies bone chiropractic simply restores balance to the body so it has he opportunity to heal itself. Specific adjustments to a spine that is out of alignment allow that to happen if in case, that is what is causing interference to optimal health.
Some things obviously need medical attention but type 2 can be prevented and often times reversed through diet.
Many of you are confusing what chiropractic is. Definitely not cupping or some of that other garbage you saw during the olympics.
Lastly to the Kiwi. I went to chiropractic college with 2 All Blacks and played rugby with both as well.
I'm sorry, are you claiming that chiropractic can treat rabies?
My point was that athletes are not the brightest bulbs in the marquee and believe in all kinds of nonsense, from superstitions to cupping to, well, chiropractic.
Just because they're athletes doesn't mean they know or understand anything about science. That was my point in mentioning the cupping.
One famous hockey goalie does commercials for that homeopathic duck liver cold stuff. He swears it works.
Some teams MIGHT have a chiropractor available to humour their players who subscribe to the religion, but ALL teams have doctors, physiotherapists and medically-educated trainers behind the bench and in the dressing rooms.
I am very familiar with three professional teams here in my home town (I work in the media), know several players and former players, and have never heard either the teams nor the players mention chiro. They certainly don't pay one on staff: if players want to go on their own, that's their choice.
No Dorit. Come on man.
In my experience Woo, many athletes are extremely bright and very in tune with their bodies.
That's not how it works here. You made a claim, so you stump up the proof for your claim.
Start here Julian....
Then do your own research if you so concerned
Sean: "In my experience...many athletes are extremely bright and very in tune with their bodies."
In my experience, athletes tend to be credulous about their health, as demonstrated by their affinity for dubious supplements,, titanium necklaces and various other woo. They turn to chiropractors and other fringe practitioners, as in the case of ex-Cleveland Browns quarterback Bernie Kosar, who was "cured" of chronic traumatic encephalopathy by a Dr. Rick Sponaugle, using a mystery IV drip and supplements (the "cure" apparently didn't last long):
Note that chiros have also found it lucrative to treat symptoms of brain injury:
"Where some doctors use potions, others rely on far-out machines. Ted Carrick, who calls himself a chiropractic neurologist, gained attention a couple years ago when NHL star Sidney Crosby credited him for helping him recover from a series of devastating concussions. Among the treatments Carrick used: strapping Crosby into a space-camp looking gyroscopic chair and spinning him, upside-down, around and around and around. Carrick says the wait to enter his clinics in Dallas, Texas, and Marietta, Georgia, can stretch to a year. When patients do finally get in, he charges them $1,000 per day. Most stay one to two weeks. Insurance companies do not pick up the tab."
You should look into that, Sean. After a few years of that kind of practice, you could afford a villa that would put Mercola's to shame.
I have a strong sense that that's a typo.
*does own research*
I find it curious that the only person who refers to Joshua Akin as the Cubs' "team chiropractor" is Joshua Akin. There is a news item describing him this way for the Bears, doing soft tissue work on... Jay Cutler.
The only things you've demonstrated with this routine are that (1) you're not overly concerned with accuracy when it comes to making wild assertions and (2) some professional sports teams have a chiro in the Rolodex if somebody wants one.
What you have most certainly not demonstrated is that they are "straight" chiros, which moots your entire performance.
Repeat after me:
There is a news item describing him this way for the Bears, doing soft tissue work on… Jay Cutler.
Jay Cutler? Jay "we don't vaccinate" Cutler? Married to Kristin "I feed my babies dangerous home-made formula" Cavalleri?
That Jay Cutler?
Funny no records about ER visit. Meds can cause strokes? Falls to head can cause strokes? Did the fucking ER work up the head injury? Did they miss something? Thats my guess. Bleed on brain? Im guessing easier to blame chiro then medical malpractice. Common things occur commonly. Dont be influenced by a bunch of wolves people. Ill testify in court about real medical records, autopsy reports, chiro records, actual scientific double blind studies, etc. Not a tweet supposedly from TMZ, Forbes article, post on Facebook, etc. Lawyers from big time hospitals can crush a small business owner. I call bullshit you all unless all evidence is present!
If Cutler has been a regular customer of a chiropractor, that's very likely where he got his anti-vaccine ideas. Most chiros are notorious for dissuading their customers from vaccination.
No doubt Sean, as a chiro, sees nothing wrong with Cutler's (and his industry's) anti-vax stance.
Heh, I forgot about all that. I don't actually have any interest in football, but I have friends who do, so the first thing that occurred to me was complaints about his long-standing suckitude.
Can you provide any examples of your work as an expert witness? Remember where the money is; talent is always welcome.
That strikes me as a leap.
^ Make of this what you will, but it doesn't seem to be in the same, ah, ballpark as Sean's "applied kinesiology" joint (which apparently also offers nonspecific cosmetic improvements).
^^ He does seem to have gotten a haircut.
Good boy Narad, good boy. Haha.
Sean, a question, please.
IRT D. D. Palmer, chiropractor number one, about patient alpha, who was treated for deafness. Do you think Palmer's story is plausible? Can chiropractic treat deafness?
If he removed pressure from a nerve going to the ear that was causing it not to function properly, then yes.
Things like that happen because again, Palmer had no intention of fixing the guys deafness in one ear. He was trying to relieve him of pain. But removal of interference to an otherwise normal nervous system allowed it to function properly again.
Palmer thought he had found the "cure" for deafness. It wasn't a cure at all. It was just a pinched nerve where he happened to manipulate the spine.
When I was in school I was seeing a patient for lower back pain. About 2 weeks into it says to me, "you know, I've had athletes foot for over a year. I have never been able to get rid of it. It's now gone." I had no idea the guy had athletes foot and did I then find a cure for athletes foot? No! But something was working right again and his body finally was able correct the problem.
People come to us for certain things, head aches, allergies, digestion issues, but chiropractic doesn't treat those things. We just work with the body, do our best to restore balance and a lot of the times, the symptoms, wherever they may be, go away.
That's true chiropractic. It's not cupping, it's not ART, not supplements not even applied kinesiology which our friend Narad likes to keep poking fun at. It's simply adjusting the spine but in a very specific way and giving the body the ability to heal itself by taking pressure of the nervous system. It works really well and that's why the ancients looked to the spine, that's why Edison said look to the spine, that's why the profession itself has been around as long as it has.
So would it be fair to say that you believe that there is a nerve, any nerve, that goes from the ear to the brain that impacts hearing, that travels via the spine, or any path that can be manipulated with gentle pressure as Palmer stated?
Johhny, nobody really knows what he adjusted. Would it be nice to know? Yes. Does it really matter? Not really. What matters is he facilitated a study to appreciate the bodies ability to heal on its own.
I wish I knew. Something to do with the cervical plexus? Anything can cause anything and is why it is important not to get so focused on symptoms but balance of the entire body.
Good night boys and girls. Lots of patients tomorrow. I wish you all the best. Even you Narad...
Sean you stated "Why does every professional sports team have a chiropractor?"
The Warriors do not have any chiropractors on their medical team. They do have a PT though or glorified personal trainers (what you call them). Will you also be exaggerating anything else to make it sound like EVERY body is jumping on the chiropractick bandwagon?
So the set of "every disease imaginable" is a subset of "every disease" and, presumably, only includes those which might reasonably be treated or prevented by spinal manipulation and improvements in posture. Things like back ache could lead to reduced activity and slumping, which leads to poor wind and weight gain, which leads to any of a number of chronic diseases?
Sean: "Anything can cause anything".
Well, obviously if you believe that, chiropractic is an appropriate treatment for anything.
Although a few chiros still talk about fixing deafness with spinal manipulation, the concept remains nonsensical and the case reports unconvincing.
Yes, it really does matter. The anatomy and physiology related to hearing doesn't leave the inside of the skull. But, hey, I could use a laugh - tell us how you think hearing works, and how the spine is involved.
So do you seriously believe that if two people stub their toe, then walk with a limp, and 'throw their spine out of alignment', that one could develop deafness, and the other bleeding gums?
Only a chiropractor would say that symptoms aren't important.
Check out NUCCA -- chiro adjustments without twisting or jerking. Got rid of my lifelong migraines and trigeminal neuralgia -- also known as tic doulereau.
“Anything can cause anything” implies that "anything can fix anything", which reminds me of Dirk Gently.
Your bill for my time on your case is in the mail.
It's far beyond the scope of this blog
I'm just wondering why katie decided to go to a chiropractor instead of a normal GP? Her pain was not chronic but acute in nature. She injured her head when she fell in that photo shoot. She suffered from a WHIPLASH (known as a cervical extension injury by doctors) injury that extended all the way down to her neck.
Many years ago, at 21 years of age, I fell off a high balance beam. I hit my head so hard when it made contact with the ground. I was afraid for myself because it was one hell of a knock - much worse than katie's, I can assure you. I decided to go home after that. There were no symptoms in those few hours, went to bed and fall asleep.
But by the following the day I woke up with one massive headache, felt nauseas, had a fever, had a swollen neck and a sore throat so bad I could barely talk. I knew that serious head injuries can cause a detachment of a retina so I knew I had to see a doctor once symptoms began. felt like I was dieing.
My sister called the ambulance. When I arrived at the hospital the doctor ordered an xray. All structures within my head and neck was showed to still be intact. I was diagnosed as having whiplash. He gave me strong painkillers and I was sent home.
The chiropractor was highly negligent. He is responsible for he death. Period. The force he applied to her neck must have been severe enough for an artery to rupture. The coroner knew he was to blame, hence the results of her autopsy.
It is not far beyond the scope of this blog, at all. It is simple, really. The coroner's autopsy report confirms the chiropractor killed Kate May. End-of-story.
P.S Orac, you are BRILLIANT. You never experienced a whiplash injury but you get it. You are a genius.
Starting in 2009 Dr. Bill Moreau has been the director of the U.S. Olympic Committee’s (USOC) Sports Medicine Clinics. He's a chiropractor. I wouldn't say he's average, but to think the Olympic Committee would hire a chiropractor to oversee their entire program just because they're easily duped is quite dumb. The reason that professional and Olympic teams are brought up is because it's a high stakes game that only cares about results.
I'm not sure that's accurate -- that's definitely how it's *perceived*, but to say they only care about results implies they need to know the results before they'll accept something. And that is definitely not true. When the stakes are that high, you will certainly accept anything with proven results, but you'll also throw the dice on anything that *might* get results, provided it's not too risky. Most alternative medicine treatments offer very few risks (other than missed diagnoses), and with the payout being possible victory or even world records, that looks like an extremely good bet.
This is also why professional athletes are famous for superstition, and holding to rituals. It's not because they're stupid. It's because the payoff is so great that they'll take what would otherwise seem pointless, because what if one of the things they try actually does work? Worse, what if one of the things their *competitor* tries actually does work?
I used to think that all chiropractors were quack scam artist. But my time reading RI has convinced me that this is not true. I now believe that there are two types of chiropractors.
There are those that, as near as I can tell, include Moreau, that are physical therapist with delusions of grandeur. This type seems to not do much damage, and may even helpful to some.
Then there are the other types, who believe that chiropractic can cure deafness, and indeed any and all other ailments. I think these are some evil, ignorant sumbitches, who should be run out of town.
You can probably guess which category I would assign to someone who makes a statement like "Anything can cause anything...".
I see your point but what I'm saying is that to reach that level of athlete you presumably have proven some sort of value. They didn't just take a chance on Dr. Moreau based on fear that the Russians might have a voodoo doctor to give them a placebo provided boost. They made him the head of their entire physical medicine program. He presumably knows his stuff, not just in chiropractic, but in patient care specifically regarding athletes. Make no mistake, he is one of the best within the chiropractic profession in the specialty of sports medicine and I don't think every chiropractor has ascended to his level of knowledge of the human body and it's nuanced treatment protocols.
Hey John boy. Here ya loud and clear dum dum. There's studies that show adjustments have improved hearing. I tried to post the links a couple times but it got kicked off. Hmm. Those studies are upper cervical but misalignment in the lower spine can in turn cause problems in the upper spine because it's all connected you douche. And if the upper cervical spine is off than it can then affect the inner ear because of the occipital bone being misaligned which can change every other cranial bone then cranial nerves.
The bleeding gums comment you posted is asinine which is why trying to have a conversation with a troll moron like yourself typically goes no where. Your to dumb to get out of your own way. I personally have improved patients hearing with upper cervical adjustments as well as sight and any other sensory function you would like Fill the blank with.
Talk about DD, big f'ing deal. Let's talk about all the people killed since 1895 medical vs chiropractic, and see really, who's causing harm.
So I don't give 2 craps what you believe about chiropractic or what 2 sides there are and which you subscribe to. Just like the author of this blog who has said in a previous post, to paraphrase, well I guess if it was this kind of chiropractor I would say it's okay. Well gosh thanks so much that you believe it helps with low back pain. Gee, I just don't know what we put profession would do if you didn't. Thank you thank you! Are kiddin me?
Go do something with your life and try to honestly help some people. Seriously. Get a clue and get a life.
Btw, someone mentioned the Warriors earlier. The Golden State Warriors? They've had a chiropractor for years. So did Jordan, so did Gretzky, so did Joe Montana, Usan Bolt, so did Elliot Smith, so does Labron James, so does........
Let's see: the foot bone is connected to the shin bone which is connected to thigh bone which is connected to the hip bone which is connected to the back bone. It all makes sense now, oh my.
It's called a kinetic chain Bly. Glad your catching on
I love this. Not a single person on this feed understands what neuronal summation is. Nor what the chiropractic adjustment actually does but believe it to be quackery. A chiropractic adjustment activates mechanoreceptors in the joint space that sends a signal to the cortex,(neuronal summation of other neurons- which is how the hearing impairment was effected) causing an increase in the pontomedullary reticular formation which causes a decrease in the Intermediolateral nucleus which will increase action of the vagus nerve causing an increase in parasympathetic function. In short, an adjustment can affect your autonomic function on every level. A vertebral artery dissection from an accident then seen by a chiropractor doesn't mean that a chiropractor killed her. The chiropractic adjustment is 90 percent lateral bending with only slight rotation of the joint within the natural joint physiological space. To declare a chiropractic adjustment caused her death after she took a fall at work (which no one can bring light to the severity) and not making her coroners report public knowledge is asinine and lacks any scientific methodology.
Sean since you are a little dense. That is a line from a song and I was being sarcastic.
Bly! Ohhhhhhhhh, that's a song? Golly! Your so funny!
Sean @98, If adjusting the spin can correct hearing problems, then by logical inference, shouldn't damage to the spin cause hearing loss? That should be easy to test, just look at a wide swath of people who have had major damage to their spines and see if they have hearing problems that started with their injury.
However, if we find that there is not an increased incidence of hearing loss with spinal injury, then we would have to say that the two things are unrelated, would we not?
And so witty!!
Sean are you another of fendleworths lost socks?
Justa, adjustments only help hearing loss if a misaligned vertebrae is what's causing it it!! Otherwise it won't do squat for their hearing! What's with you people?
Bly, Are you another skid mark in my underwear?
Sean @106: That's what I'm asking. Clearly it would be unethical to go around damaging people's vertebrae in order to see if that causes hearing loss. But if you have a population of people who have damaged vertebrae, then it should be much easier to see how many of them developed hearing loss at the time of the injury to their vertebrae.
But if none of the people who suffered damage to their vertebrae have any hearing loss (from the time of the injury) then clearly there is no association between hearing loss and vertebrae damage, and therefore adjusting the vertebrae can not fix it.
Justa, Why don't you do that study then fill us in
Sean; no, no, no. That's not how this works. It is *your* assertion that vertebrae damage causes hearing loss. Therefore it is *your* job to provide evidence.
Particularly since the basic science says that there is no prior plausibility.
Or you could change your story and the amazing hearing recovery could be because the manipulation was so violent that the object in the man's ear was dislodged, restoring his hearing.
Justa, no one has ever said that THE reason, for ALL hearing loss is a misaligned vertebrae. Ever. I have given you a crude example, which I understand for your pocket protector wearing army is not good enough, above. I have also tried to post a link to two different studies that have shown improvement to hearing from upper cervical adjustments. For some reason it didn't take. Google it, what can say.
Everything else your saying doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
And being it that I have no interest in trying to prove what I know to be true to a bunch of dum dums,
If your hung up on it go do the study. I'm not researcher, I'm a practitioner that gets results
IF your theories are true....why can't chiropractors do a study showing that adjustments increase parasympathetic tone...you should be able to reduce heart rate, BP etc with a simple adjustment
This would be a very easy study. If i give some atropine we see this work immediately... lets see adjustments do it.
Then again, I would love to see evidence of that subluxations and misaligned vertebrae exist and that adjustments correct it. Before and after imaging?
These studies should be so easy to do, but chiros do not want to do it because they know it is all crap
You have done a truly admirable job of putting forth your hypothesis:
All diseases can be cured by chiropractic, except those which cannot.
Now can you tell us how to distinguish between the two?*
Please post a link to the best, single peer-reviewed study which supports your conclusion. Thanks in advance!!
*My working hypothesis is that this decision is based on a quick calculation by the "practitioner" involving the patient's GQ (gullibility quotient) and DI (disposable income.)
No, but you did say that it was sometimes the case, and that your art can be used to help in these cases.
Hence JustaTech reasonable demand that before you pretend that you fixed a problem, you should show that there is a problem in the first place.
Chiro: "A chiropractic adjustment activates mechanoreceptors in the joint space that sends a signal to the cortex,(neuronal summation of other neurons- which is how the hearing impairment was effected) causing an increase in the pontomedullary reticular formation which causes a decrease in the Intermediolateral nucleus which will increase action of the vagus nerve causing an increase in parasympathetic function."
I love this.
Throw around some anatomic terms, make invisible connections using misunderstood dots, and hey presto! Parasympathetic function is activated! (gotta be for their benefit, just get the neurons revved up and whatever ails the patient will be fixed).
I think someone was hastily going back to his original class notes from Palmer.
If this was just a chiro delusion it wouldn't be so bad, but patients are being harmed, either from direct trauma, or far more commonly from neglect of conditions that could be alleviated or cured by evidence-based treatment by qualified health professionals.
@ Dangerous Bacon
A subsection of technobabble. Mr Spock did it better.
As I am no neurologist, upon reading Chiro I was split between "you really need to learn to speak to laypeople" and "this has to be a Poe".
Y'know, for someone who might as well have pictures of a unicorn and a rainbow on his Web site, Sean seems to be running awfully short on psychological, ah, function, balance, and flow.
Go adjust yourself.
Yeah, but this guy does it better.
^ Heh. "Proud Member of the College of Applied Kinesiology."
“A chiropractic adjustment activates mechanoreceptors in the joint space that sends a signal to the cortex,(neuronal summation of other neurons- which is how the hearing impairment was effected) causing an increase in the pontomedullary reticular formation which causes a decrease in the Intermediolateral nucleus which will increase action of the vagus nerve causing an increase in parasympathetic function.”
You can make a magical incantation by stringing together random CNS-anatomy terms... but it's still a magical incantation.
a decrease in the Intermediolateral nucleus which will increase action of the vagus nerve
I was not previously aware that the Underpants Gnomes had branched out into neurology.
Your crap David.
Not that this has anything to do with chiropractic, but in your comments, I have counted at least 4 places where "you're" is misspelled "your".
Come to think of it, if you are as careless with neck adjustments as with spelling, you might want to check that your insurance is up to date.
It figures that Sean would eventually dredge up that study about chiro neck cracking and blood pressure (I predicted it in post #4). Chiros love that one, as it helps allow them to pretend to be internal medicine doctors.
Again, it was a short-term (8 week) study in a small group of patients, using a specialized technique not performed by chiros in general, and to my knowledge has never been replicated or gone into regular use as a treatment for hypertension.
I think you'd have to be nuts to allow a chiro to regularly crack on your C-1 vertebra in an attempt to control high blood pressure. But some people are drawn to adventure.
TBruce, thanks nerd. There's probably more misspellings than than that I typically do this from my phone. Who gives a rats.
Hey Bacon, that treatment is performed only by chiropractors and in that particular adjustment there is no cracking or noise or cavitation what so ever. Your so dumb you don't even know what your arguing about.
I'm out you chumps do nothing but grasp for straws. YOU'RE bitter because patients are leaving your killing ways in droves.
"I typically do this from my phone."
While driving and eating a chili dog, apparently.
"you chumps do nothing but grasp for straws"
Grasp _at_ straws, you mean. :)
This is a serious issue for patients that have neck pain and choosing to watch and wait is not an answer. This is an interesting systematic review and meta-analysis article written by a group of neurosurgeons about this specific topic of chiropractic adjusting of the cervical spine and stroke incidence: “There is no convincing evidence to support a causal link, and unfounded belief in causation may have dire consequences.”
Church EW, Sieg EP, Zalatimo O, et al. (February 16, 2016) Systematic Review and Meta-analysis of Chiropractic Care and Cervical Artery Dissection: No Evidence for Causation. Cureus 8(2): e498.
The main issue is that a patient with a stroke in progress will have head and neck pain and this may send them to their family physician, chiropractor, or physical therapist.
Cassidy JD, Boyle E, Cote P, He Y, Hogg-Johnson S, Silver FL. Risk of vertebrobasilar stroke and chiropractic care: results of a population-based case-control and case-crossover study. Spine (Phila Pa 1976) 2008;33(4 Suppl):S176–83.
Recognizing this stroke in progress is the issue, chiropractic treatment does not seem to be a causative factor, but more coincidental. The responsibility of all health practitioners is to try to assess the patient for a possibility of stroke, though at times there may not be any other signs other than head and neck pain.
Murphy DR. Current understanding of the relationship between cervical manipulation and stroke: what does it mean for the chiropractic profession? Chiropractic & Osteopathy. 2010;18:22.
Amazing the ignorance in these comments and this blog post. I'll just forward the scientific links and you "Quack" maniacs can read (and hopefully comprehend) the science...this is "ScienceBlog" right? You have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to manipulation and risk. Pulling a few YouTube videos hardly makes you an expert on manipulation. But those who think they are so smart, sensationalize the very infrequent cases of this event. You hater "geniuses" may want to look at #5 below. A systematic review...and I'm sure you know what those are, right? Do you understand the word "causation"? What about the word "strain"? Maybe reading the studies on manipulation and arterial strain will help you understand that it's not the manipulation. It's the physician (both MD and DC according to the science - again, see #4 below) that may miss the early warning signs of arterial dissection, and provide an intervention, AND according to the science, it doesn't matter which type the patient goes to because the risk of having a stroke afterwards STATISTICALLY IS THE SAME!!!
The comparative risks of death from surgery, opioids, and NSAIDS are all higher than the risk of death from manipulation. AND, anytime a patient dies from any healthcare intervention, it's tragic. AND, I'm sure you are all smart enough to understand that more people die each year, by a LONG shot, from medical errors than they do a chiropractic adjustment. The number of deaths from a chiropractic intervention are so low, THEY DON'T EVEN KEEP TRACK OF IT...But medical errors? The third leading cause of death in the US. So take your "quack" "not real doctor" comments and ...well, you know...
1) Supporting evidence needed. The cites you gave didn't support your claims. The first two cites were studies each done on six cadavers. In fact, they may be referencing the same study. The sample size is way too small. Link 4 appears to suggest arterial dissection IS a risk of chiropractic.
2) People who undergo surgery, and take opioids and NSAIDS are already not in the best of health. You have to compare the risks of medical interventions against the harm of doing nothing.
This bulldust claim again? Seriously?
"This is a serious issue for patients that have neck pain and choosing to watch and wait is not an answer."
Yep...wade on in and start neck cracking, because that's your hammer and by god, everyone is a nail.
"I’m sure you are all smart enough to understand that more people die each year, by a LONG shot, from medical errors than they do a chiropractic adjustment."
We're also smart enough to recognize that deaths from medical errors associated with providing evidence-based care are tragic - but deaths due to quackery are not only tragic, but inexcusable.
"The number of deaths from a chiropractic intervention are so low, THEY DON’T EVEN KEEP TRACK OF IT"
Since chiros aren't keeping track of these deaths (and in fact, many do their best to obscure them), how do we know that the number is "so low"?
"It was the patient's fault, their arteries were already dissecting from turning their heads too rapidly" is not a useful response from chiros and their apologists.
I'm also dubious in the extreme that "dire consequences" will flow from getting chiros to stop doing neck cracking.
Got to love this article and so many of these comments. What a bunch of whackjobs. Obviously, the model was seriously injured in her fall, which is why she went to the ER. The ER cleared her, because if her neck wasn't broken, they didn't care. She went to her chiropractor for the relief that the ER didn't give her, and the chiro, like the ER, missed she was ALREADY HAVING A STROKE!
There are hundreds of articles on the efficacy of chiropractic, so much so that all the freakin PT's all want to do EXACTLY what chiropractors do, adjust the spine.
This website is nothing but a quackjob who cares nothing about science OR helping people.
Rock Climber, so you dispute the coroner's finding that the stroke was the result of vertebral artery dissection at the chiropractor's office? After all, you seem to be claiming a different cause of death.
Jay, when you compare the death rate due to NSAIDs to the death rate due to HVLA neck manipulations, you are ignoring two crucial pieces of data that lend context to the statistics. 1) Far more people are taking NSAIDs than are getting HVLA manipuluations; a better question is not the absolute numbers of people dying after either intervention, but the percentage. 2) Risk is not the only thing to consider with a medical intervention; benefit is also a factor. NSAIDs have a lot more evidence supporting their benefits. The risk/benefit ratio is important, and with no solid evidence showing neck manipulations to provide relief superior to placebo, the risk/benefit ratio is effectively infinite even for small risks.
"The ER cleared her, because if her neck wasn’t broken, they didn’t care. She went to her chiropractor for the relief that the ER didn’t give her, and the chiro, like the ER, missed she was ALREADY HAVING A STROKE!"
Apart from the delusional belief that the ER "didn't care", emergency physicians seeing a patient in the setting of acute trauma and neck pain would at a minimum perform an appropriate neurologic exam (something chiros are not trained to properly do). "ALREADY HAVING A STROKE", no matter how loud you shout, is not documented.
Her ER doc(s) knew enough not to crack the neck of a person who was having acute neck pain (or any patient for that matter). Too many chiros are not similarly equipped with common sense.
Chiropractic supporters I have a question:
How does missing the warning signs that your patient is having a stroke an endorsement of chiropractic care?
It seems to me that someone who is considered a health care provider should be able to recognize a health emergency.
Dangerous Beacon, you are on point.
I'm suspecting CHIRO has injured a few patients.
I experienced a head/neck injury, but it didn't cause my neck artery to tear.
Do you read with COMPREHENSION, Chiro?????
She didn't die while she had the injury, she didn't die at the ER, she died when she went back to Chiropractor. Simple enough.
I am a chiropractor without the HVLA fetish. I never drank the koolaid, and I don't find a compelling reason to do such adjustments. As rare as such catastrophies are, the risk/reward consideration doesn't warrant it, in my opinion. I think most people don't appreciate that the standard of chiropractic care does entail this rare catastrophic outcome.
Craig - IRT post 101, where we were given an "explanation" of how chiropractic could cure deafness, do you find that explanation plausible? Can deafness be caused by a 'misaligned' spine, and is it plausible that chiropractic treatment can cure deafness? (Not all cases, obviously, but is there any reason to think chiropractic would ever be effective?)
This is another media scare tactic spurred on by the medical doctors. Whats funny is that people never hear that the 4th leading cause of death is properly prescribed medications by doctors in hospitals. JAMA. 2000 Jul 26;284(4):483-5
According to the Institute of Medicine,
there are 225,000 deaths each year due to iatrogenic causes:
• 12,000 deaths/year from unnecessary surgery
• 7,000 deaths/year from medication errors in hospitals
• 20,000 deaths/year from other errors in hospitals
• 80,000 deaths/year from nosocomial infections in hospitals
• 106,000 deaths/year from Non-Error, adverse effects of medications
One person coincidentally dies of a stroke in association with being adjusted. Did you know that you are just as likely to have a stroke visiting your M.D.as you are a Chiropractor?
-Cassidy JD et al. Risk of vertebrobasilar stroke and chiropractic care: results of a population based case-control and case-crossover study. Spine 2008 Feb 15;33(4 Suppl):S176-83
“No significant association between VBA stroke and chiropractic visits. We conclude that manipulation is an unlikely cause of VBA stroke.” Kosloff TM, Elto D, Tao J, Bannister WM. Chiropractic care and the risk of vertebrobasilar stroke: results of a case–control study in U.S. commercial and Medicare Advantage populations. Chiropractic & Manual Therapies (2015) 23:19
Activities cited in literature preceding VAD:
▪ Ceiling painting
▪ Nose blowing
▪ Oral contraceptive use
▪ Sexual activity
▪ Receiving anesthesia
▪ Use of resuscitation activities
▪ Receiving a shampoo
▪ Dental work
▪ Star gazing/watching aircrafts
Many walk into office in process of dissection resulting in the symptoms they have come to seek treatment for (headaches, neck pain).
VBA stroke is an extremely rare event. One in a million manipulations of the neck. To put it into perspective: Stroke chiropractic may happen once in the whole career of one in ten chiropractors. (many of the strokes following an adjustments were not even from Chiropractor's, they were from those untrained in how to give a proper adjustment: A blind masseuse
An Indian barber, wife, kung fu practitioner, Self manipulation, Medical Doctor, Osteopathic Doctor, Physical therapist,
In comparison medicine's own research shows that a patient dies after medical treatment every year at the hands of one in five medical doctors. Every year!
I personally think that it's telling that the chiropractic fraternity are very quick to point the finger of blame on other causes rather than be professionally and ethically responsible and actually start an adverse event register and actually review the cases. The number of medical errors causing death is irrelevant in these cases - it's chiropractic management that is being scrutinised.
I work in the patient safety field, investigating and analysing adverse events. One of the things I would have to ask if I was conducting a root cause analysis on Ms May's case would be "if the fall could quite possibly have resulted in the vertebral artery injury, why did you go ahead with the neck manipulation? Not once, but twice? What are the professional standards regarding acute pain onset post injury mechanism and chiropractic management? At what point do you refer to other, more appropriate health care professionals?"
Of course, having had some interaction with some members of the chiro industry here in Australia, the claim is always 'we don't need to do anything like this because chiro is 100% safe and can cure what ails you".
They just don't get it.
No doubt that it is the chiropractor or any doctors responsibility to look for signs of stroke..but they don't always manifest in the FAST acronym especially at onset..She had a bad fall in a photo shoot and actually went to an MD first and they never said she was having a stroke..then she went to the chiropractor as many do for neck pain and she died later..not on his table. Besides if this accusation were true that CMT caused strokes then thousands would be reporting this and the profession would be in trouble. I reported those figures because no one makes any deal of the harm that conventional medicine brings but as soon as a chiropractor or anyone for that matter in alternative medicine is involved it's...automatically quackery and harmful but that is simply not the case. And if you actually talked to any chiropractor in depth..we are never taught hat Chiropractic heals everything..in fact it is not for the specific treatment of anything other than to remove interference in the nervous system and with that comes healing of numerous problems.
We will refer to an ER as soon as someone presents with a stoke to answer one of your questions
We have to look at this case an evaluate it like any other situation in medicine. I question the skill knowledge of the chiropractor more than chiropractic medicine. Many people go to a chiropractor and get relieve and benefits they have not been able to get from other forms of medicine. I also wonder if this woman was given aftercare instructions and did not follow through. Finally was is the ratio of deaths by chiropractic care in comparison to deaths due to prescription drugs per year?
Jackasses who correlate Chiropractic adjustments with strokes have not read the research. Don't be fooled by these morons and their "science" blog.....this is a shill-blog for the pharma companies, nothing more but idiot propaganda for idiots. Katie May dies from damage to her Carotid artery: Read my blog for the truth:
I expect more clowns when the Volkswagen is this late, not just a feeble display.
Oh, I just bet the clown wants us to say "yes!" to meningitis and SSPE!
Well, I am certainly disappointed in the non-resonant tone and unfriendly vibrations emanating from Dr. Trebing, not at all what I expected from visiting his website:
I am intrigued by his blog post about how "many" hockey players suffer carotid artery damage and go on the injured list, carefully watched until their arteries heal.* Strangely, the sports media are silent about such injuries (all you get is some mumbo-jumbo about "upper body injury"). No doubt Big Pharma and its stooges like Dr. Oz are keeping these problems secret. :(
*hopefully diagnosis is prompt, as some NHL franchises have team chiropractors and you wouldn't want a routine neck cracking going astray. :(
Oh, I just bet the clown wants us to say “yes!” to meningitis and SSPE!
Shingles. Don't forget shingles.
Shay: "Shingles. Don’t forget shingles."
We could fill a page or two with bad disease outcomes that have been prevented by vaccines.
Ugh.....I have a raging case of Shingles right now.
I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemies.
I don't know much about The Truth (TM), but I sure did find some good entertainment at Dr. Trebing's blog.
With a domain name of saynotovaccines, you'd expect a lot of anti-vax pseudoscience, and you wouldn't be disappointed. However, the chiropractor Dr. William Trebing also seems to be an ordained holy man in The Church of Christ Consciousness, and you can read about them at https://saynotovaccines.org/category/the-church-of-christ-consciousness…
What does The Church of Christ Consciousness do? They will, for a nominal donation "provide a personlized raised seal document which verifies your membership with our religious order, and the tenets of our church which prohibit toxic ( thats all ! ) vaccinations."
Recommended donation for documentation:
Single person: $61
Husband and wife: $82
Family with children: $105
But The Church of Christ Consciousness is more than just a document store. They have, count 'em, 53 Tenets, which are to religion as Chopra is to physics.
Number 7 is the tenant that serves to prohibit vaccines. It says, in part -
However, the Rev. Dr. William P. Trebing, DC, is here to lend The Lord a hand. On his chiropractic web site, I see that he can help almost anyone, including children and infants. Right away, I feel about him the same as Penn Jillette does toward DCs who treat kids. But that don't mean I can't learn something from his site.
For example, on this page http://www.spinalresonance.com/info/ear-infections/ , I read -
My Google-Fu is weak. I can't find the names or descriptions of these nerves anywhere. Can someone help a brother out and post a link? And how is the ear regulated? I thought they just sat there and did what they do.
Clearly there are some gaps in my education.
Mom and dad both came down with Shingles. DO NOT WANT!
I'm scheduled to see my doctor (a real doctor, a medical doctor) tomorrow, and will get my shingles shot, and, I think, a new TDaP (or whatever name it goes by now) (every 5 years, right?).
Still 10 for me,* and I'm going to be first in line for a VZV vaccination in a few months. IIRC, only one Tdap is recommended in adulthood – unless you're having children, in which case you can have one every time you're pregnant. The rest are Td.
* Colonoscopies, on the other hand....
keep searching for health in pill bottle or a vile and youlll always get more than you bargained for. The people I know that get meningitis/shingles/flu all had the vaccine...medical doctors are not any more real than a chiropractor...last I checked the harm from the medical doctors is one of the leading casues of death in the US. Also we have one of the highest rates of infant mortality in the world!! We spend $$$$$$more on health care and still are one of the sickest countries...vaccines are another pseudoscience brainwashing technique implemented on the ironic "well baby" visit..what a joke
Oh, wow, Hunter! You thoroughly blew us away with that grammatically incorrect punctuation filled flurry of nonsense. That was hilarious.
Your so welcome Chris, and I'm so grateful for your informative reply. Next time it will be in APA format
It surprises many to learn that some of the nerves that control, regulate and monitor the ear begin in the brain stem, continue down the spinal cord and exit out from between the bones of the spinal column.
A chiropractic fraudster has invented his own pre-Galenic occult anatomy? Tell me it isn't so!
I am kind of puzzled that the illustrious inventor of the Trebig Method should come here and present himself in a posture of lordosis, as if hoping to advertise his sale-of-indulgences scam.
But The Church of Christ Consciousness is more than just a document store.
Now I am wondering... is it really a scam when what you sell is purportedly a tool for someone else who wants to ignore the law -- that is, when your victims are would-be scammers themselves?
Johnny, the vestibulocochlear nerve is the eighth cranial (it's all in your head) nerve.
These words do not mean what you apparently think they do.
^ Should've been just boldface.
Today in Calgary, the trial of a woman whose 7 year old son died of meningitis because she ""did not believe in conventional medicine".
The the use of "drugs, vaccines and other injections", specifically the contents of "pill bottle or a vile [sic]" containing oral or parenteral penicillin almost certainly would have saved him. But no, he got oil of oregano, dandelion tea and a short trip down the hill from the Children's Hospital to the medical examiner's building.
CBC report of trial so far
I didn't make it to the trial today. The testimony I'd really like to hear is that from the medical examiner and, assuming it happens, from the mother being grilled about how she came to reject real medicine.
It is always sad to hear about a death in anyone's family..but it is astounding to hear the accusations. First off the meningitis vaccine is far from perfect...one of my good friends got the vaccine and sure enough got spinal meningitis and nearly died. It is so frustrating to see the hypocritical targeting of families who do not vaccinate, but as long as you follow mainstream recommendations you'll be okay, unless of course you then get accused for shaken baby syndrome but that's another story. What about the mandatory vaccinations in the military and their measles outbreaks within? What about the measles outbreak at disney land..most of them were vaccinated! Same thing with Pertussis..many of the children getting it have acellular pertussis hence (TDaP, Tetanus Diptheria, acellular Pertussis)
the mandatory vaccinations in the military and their measles outbreaks within
And of course because they're the military they HUSH UP the outbreaks so no-one knows about them! Wake up sheeple!
There really should be some minimum bar for a Trollery license.
Hunter: "First off the meningitis vaccine is far from perfect"
The child died from a Strep A infection, something that would have cured with antibiotics. Expecting anything in this life to be perfect is the Nirvana Fallacy.
"What about the measles outbreak at disney land..most of them were vaccinated!"
Really? From http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6406a5.htm?s_cid=mm6406a5_w
Just a little math hint: 67% is more than half... so that means the vaccinated were a smaller percentage than those not vaccinated. Also, you have to look at the relative rates. Over 80% of the population is vaccinated on schedule, so out of the tens of thousands of people who go to Disneyland, very few of those got sick. But of the remaining 20%, many were protected because there was a wall of immune by vaccine people, so did not get sick. But the unlucky greater number of non-vaccinated got measles, and there were several news reports of entire "vaccine choice" families getting measles:
Also twelve babies were sickened because of the decisions by another family that chose to not vaccinate. Anyone responsible for letting those kids get sick, with a much higher chance of getting SSPE later, should be ashamed.
Here is an idea, before you make arguments by blatant assertion, actually back them up with real data. You can start by providing the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the diseases.
Narad: "There really should be some minimum bar for a Trollery license."
This one actually thinks he is clever! It's hilarious.
unless of course you then get accused for shaken baby syndrome but that’s another story
Tell us more of this Origin Story. Tell us more of the friend, or close family member, who was falsely accused of hospitalising an infant when it was really the fault of those meddling vaccines. See if you can bring feminazis and Mens Rights into it for extra points
By the way, Hunter, several diseases cause meningitis, including the bacterial infection that causes strep throat. So there is no "one meningitis" vaccine.
Next time it will be in APA format
These words do not mean what you apparently think they do.
Perhaps this is Hunter's way of promising citations in the future.
Chris, first off anti-biotics do not cure anything. In any situation it is only the body that can cure. I agree that the mother should have been more proactive, but it was my impression that the case being made earlier was that the boy died from meningitis because he didn't get the vaccine, which is BS.
You want me to cite from the drug peddlers at the CDC..why would they say anything negative about their precious drugs? But anyway here you go,,
The CDC says that 12% of the measles cases associated with Disneyland were vaccinated, some of them with at least two doses of MMR vaccine, which according to the CDC if you have two doses you have 97% percent "immunity" against it. (CDC. US Multi-state Measles Outbreak, December 2014 – January 2015. CDC Health Advisory Jan. 23, 2015.)
In some of the outbreaks of 2014 nearly 20 percent of the people in California had been vaccinated.
(CDC. Notes from the Field: Measles, California, January 1 – April 18, 2014. MMWR April 25, 2014; 63(16): 362-363.)
There are numerous other examples of outbreaks happening among the vaccinated. Here is an example of a person despite receiving two MMR doses was demonstrated to be capable of transmitting the disease to other individuals.. "Rosen JB, Rota JS, et al. Outbreak of measles among persons with pride evidence of immunity, New York City, 2011. Clin Infect Dis 2014 May; 58(9): 1205-10"
-Scientists know that people who are vaccinated agains measles can still get the disease. However, They originally believed that only unvaccinated people can spread measles to others. This paper provides evidence that a fully vaccinated person can spread measles to another fully vaccinated person. I would argue that the widespread measles vaccination reduced public exposure to the measles virus reducing opportunities to boost immunity among vaccinated people, which may contribute to waning antibody levels, loss of population immunity to measles, and an increased ability of vaccinated persons to transmit the disease.
Here is an outbreak that raises important questions concerning the relative contributions of vaccine failure verses failure to vaccinate. Measles vaccination rates were high when the outbreak occurred: 97% of children had received 1 dose by 28 months and 90% had received 2 doses. Rates were even higher by the time children had entered school. The index patient was vaccinated in childhood. During outbreak 21 infants contracted the measles and 4 were hospitalized with no further complications. In a school outbreak where the vaccination status was known, 49% of the measles cases were in children who had received 2 doses of the measles vaccine. Also passive surveillance significantly under-reported the number of measles case that occurred in fully vaccinated people. "De Serres G, Markowski F, et al. Largest measles epidemic in North America in a decade-Quebec, Canada, 2011: contribution of susceptibility, serendipity, and super spreading events. Journal of Infections Disease 2013 Mar. 15: 207(6): 990-98"
Theses next three sources suggest a loss of immunity after MMR and viral shedding, could spread disease and prevent herd immunity. The first paperer describes a loss of immunity to measles, mumps and rubella that occurs with the elapse of time after MMR vaccination, permitting subclinical (asymptomatic) infections that could spread the three diseases to other people. "Trier H, Ronne T. Duration of immunity and occurrence of secondary vaccine failure following vaccination against measles, mumps and rubella. Ugeskr Laeger 1992 Jul 13; 154(29): 2008-13. [Danish]
In this next case presented, the vaccine virus was isolated in the throat, showing that subcutaneous injection of an attenuated measles strain can result in respiratory excretion of the virus. Fevers induced by measles vaccination are related to the replication and shedding of the live vaccine virus. "Morfin F, Beguin A, et al. Detection of measles vaccine in the throat of a vaccinated child. Vaccine 2002 Feb 22; 20(11-12): 1541-43"
The measles vaccine virus is excreted in the urine and throat and only molecular genotyping can distinguish between wild-type and vaccine-related disease. "Kai B, Genera-Margan I, et al. Spotlight on measles 2010: excretion of vaccine strain measles virus in urine and pharyngeal secretions of a child with vaccine associated febrile rash illness, Croatia, March 2010. Euro Surveill 2010 Sep 2: 15 (35)"
Chris you have to be joking..a wall of immunity?? If that wall is so great why was there an outbreak? If vaccines work so incredibly well why do the vaccinated get sick? Your argument makes no sense..measles is NOT this incredibly deadly disease you speak of..If herd immunity as you speak of worked and the CDC was correct about measles being eradicated from the US in 2000 none of this would have happened...but it did. What is ridiculous is that the CDC says all the credit to this eradication is due to the vaccine..
I wont minimize the risk of the measles because it has the potential to be very deadly-just not normally in well-nourished populations in the 21st century. In the1800s, measles epidemics occurred about every two years in the United States and England. During these epidemics, when suboptimal sanitation and nutrition were the norm, some hospitals overflowed with children with measles and up to 20 percent died from pneumonia and other complications.
However, by the 1960s, deaths from measles had dropped to extremely low numbers in both England and the United States. In England, the percent decline from its peak level reached an astonishing 99.96 percent by the time the live attenuated measles virus vaccine was introduced in 1968. When the first inactivated (killed) measles vaccine was licensed in 1963, the measles death rate in some states like Massachusetts had reached zero. During this year, the whole of New England had only five deaths attributed to measles. So how much effect did the vaccine really have in the first place? We can ask the same questions for the plague or scarlet fever...there were no vaccines.
Keeping things in perspective. These were deaths BEFORE the launch of measles vaccines in the 1960s, when deaths from asthma were 56 times greater, motor vehicle accidents 323 times greater, other accidents 612 times greater, and heart disease 9,560 times greater. Why such a disproportionate emphasis on measles deaths?
Even a casual review of the relevant literature will reveal that preventing measles mortality is not primarily related to vaccination but to nutritional status. Child mortality due to measles is 200 to 400 times greater in malnourished children in less developed countries than those in developed ones. It is crystal clear that as nutrition improves and vitamin A and D levels are optimized, the complications and deaths from measles radically diminish. This is even on the CDC website as a prescribed treatment.
Furthermore, experiencing measles infection in childhood itself may confer health benefits and even survival advantage in protecting against autoimmune conditions and chronic inflammation, including cancer, which means it may be a means through which our immune system is primed and gains self-tolerance.12 Experiencing and recovering from naturally –acquired measles may actually be, as our not so distant ancestors once commonly acknowledged, a good thing, because it confers much longer lasting superior immunity and is protective against infection that leads to complications later in life, when measles can be much more serious.
"Kubota Y, Iso H, et al. Association of measles and mumps with cardiovascular disease: the Japan Collaborative Cohort (JACC) study. Atherosclerosis 2015 Jun 18; 241(2): 682-86"
Hunter: "If vaccines work so incredibly well why do the vaccinated get sick?"
Because with two MMR vaccines it is effective for 97% of the population, that still leaves 3% that are vulnerable. In a large number of people, like the capacity of a sports stadium of over 40,000, that 3% can be a substantial number of vulnerable people.
You really should stop believing in the Nirvana Fallacy.
"Why such a disproportionate emphasis on measles deaths?"
Well, because they are easily preventable. Also, only the anti-vax folks care disproportionately about measles deaths. They seem to downplay the number of those who required very expensive hospital care (over one in ten measles cases), and the permanent disabilities from measles.
"Experiencing and recovering from naturally –acquired measles may actually be, as our not so distant ancestors once commonly acknowledged, a good thing, because it confers much longer lasting superior immunity and is protective against infection that leads to complications later in life, when measles can be much more serious."
Except for the one in a thousand who get encephalitis, and the reduction of immunity after measles that lasts for years and causes injury by other diseases:
And SSPE happens more often than previously thought:
Again, if you are claiming allowing children to get sick with measles is healthy, you need to actually come put with the PubMed Indexed studies by qualified reputable researchers that shows the present American MMR vaccine causes more harm than measles, mumps and rubella.
By the way, the Japanese study was a questionnaire survey that required the memory of the grown adults to remember their childhood diseases. It is pretty much on par with the survey study that Orac wrote about today. Good timing in posting that silly study as "proof" that surviving measles is "good."
By the way, Hunter, before there were measles vaccine almost every child in the USA got measles by the time they were fifteen years old. Lots of that was unrecorded, and the official mortality and morbidity charts in the first half of the 20th century are severely under counted:
The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review
Now provide those PubMed indexed studies by qualified reputable researchers that the MMR vaccine that has been used in the USA since 1978 causes more harm than measles mumps and rubella.
Also, come up with the economic studies that show allowing each child in the USA to get measles "naturally", and then with a good portion requiring hospital care (usually for pneumonia) is cheaper than giving them two MMR doses. Make sure that economic study is on part with An economic analysis of the current universal 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccination program in the United States.
Yes that is well-known information. The reference you cited further proves the point that measles complications are found usually in immune suppressed individuals, developing countries, malnutrition, Vitamin A deficiency etc.. regardless of the over or under reporting the trend is the same the mortality rates decreased drastically before the vaccine came out and was used. Everything I cited was reputable, it seems that you just cannot accept the facts.
Sure the data shows that the morbidity declined with vaccine introduction, but is that good? Is codling the immune system the way to go? Evidence that I cited early suggest the contrary..."Kubota Y, Iso H, et al. Association of measles and mumps with cardiovascular disease: the Japan Collaborative Cohort (JACC) study. Atherosclerosis 2015 Jun 18; 241(2): 682-86"
Even on the CDC website it says to treat the measles with large dose of vitamin A..with proper nutrition many of these diseases can be prevented or easliy dealt with. "Barclay Aj, Foster A, Sommer A. Vitamin A supplements and mortality related to measles: a randomized clinical trial. BMJ 1987 Jan 31; 294: 294-96"
"WHO/UNICEF/IV AGG Task Force. Vitamin A Supplements-A Guide to Their Use in the Treatment and Prevention of Vitamin A Deficiency and Xerophthalmia (second edition). Geneva: WHO, 1997:8"
"D'Souza RM, D'Souza R. Vitamin A for the treatment of children with measles-A systematic review. J Trop Pediatr 2002 Dec; 48(6): 323-27"
"Coutsoudis A Broughton M, et al. Vitamin A supplementation reduces measles morbitiy in you African children: a randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind trial. AM J of Clin Nutr 1991 Nov; 54(5): 890-95"
The list keeps going..
Avg. cost of Vitamin A is around $10/bottle of 100 capsules
That good old MMR vaccine is $100 per dose at Walgreens..
Vaccines are 10x more expensive..
If you search the MedAlerts database, you can see that there were 98 deaths following MMR or MMRV vaccinations reported to VAERS that occurred between 2003 and 2015. Plus, there have been 694 reports of MMR or MMRV vaccinations causing disability in that time frame. It has been estimated that less than 10 percent of vaccine adverse events are ever reported to VAERS. http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.85.12.1706?view=l…;
Speaking of under-reporting...
Considering the fact that there were 98 measles vaccine-related deaths and 694 measles vaccine-related disabilities reported to VAERS in the past 12 years, if only 10 percent of vaccine-related deaths and disabilities are being reported to the government, then the actual number of measles vaccine-related deaths and disabilities that have occurred since 2003 could have been as many as 980 deaths and 6,940 disabilities.
I think that pretty much takes care of Hunter's utility as a chew toy.
is the little puppy Narad just cutting his teeth?
"... the boy died ..." because his mother was influenced by stupid, ignorant, dangerous people who say stupid, ignorant, dangerous things like "anti-biotics [sic] do not cure anything".
I agree oregano was not the best choice. Knowing the basic mode of action in anti-biotics will help you understand my statement. The body ultimately holds the healing factor..the anti-biotic removes or kills the interference (the bacteria) so the body can repair itself
"Avg. cost of Vitamin A is around $10/bottle of 100 capsules
That good old MMR vaccine is $100 per dose at Walgreens..
Vaccines are 10x more expensive.."
And water is free. Neither water nor vitamin A prevent measles, so what's your point?
I just posted evidence that suggests vitamin A does..
No, you actually didn't - you posted information that suggested that Vitamin A might play a role in preventing the most serious side-effects of measles, but does "fuck-all" for actually preventing an infection in the first place.
And of course modern medical science could begin to prevent kids of dying from the complications of these diseases - like secondary infections and pneumonia, which was exceedingly common in cases of measles, mumps, the Flu, etc - so we would expect that mortality rates would drop - of course, I'm also sure that you aren't suggesting that just because the widespread use of Iron Lungs prevented kids from dying of Polio, that it would be preferable than preventing the disease in the first place?
Hunter, I asked for PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that the present MMR vaccine causes more harm than measles, mumps and rubella. I also asked for an economic study that shows treating measles is more cost effective than preventing it with two MMR vaccines.
You produced stuff from VAERS, which is not a PubMed study by a reputable qualified researchers. It is a bunch of unsupported reports, many times they include things like car crashes and drowning.
Vitamin A treatment is useless for measles pneumonia and encephalitis. Both articles were about children who do not have enough Vitamin A in their diet, and one was especially specific to undernourished children in Africa. So how does that relate to modern American children? And where is the economic analysis by someone who knows that they are doing?
And you repeated the Japanese study that used a questionnaire survey! Here is an idea, read the article posted on this blog this morning.
Do you have some kind of profound reading comprehension disorder? By the way, the words written in blue text are links to other webpages. Click on them and do some actual reading.
Hunter: "I just posted evidence that suggests vitamin A does.."
No, you did not. None of those papers suggest Vitamin A prevents measles, they only suggest that survival is better but not guaranteed... in children who have a Vitamin A deficiency. Perhaps you should have someone help you read.
It has been estimated that less than 10 percent of vaccine adverse events are ever reported to VAERS.
Hunter might want to actually read the Rosenthal & Chen paper he Mercola cites, rather than regurgitate Mercola's barefaced lies about it.
Considering the fact that there were 98 measles vaccine-related deaths and 694 measles vaccine-related disabilities reported to VAERS in the past 12 years, if only 10 percent of vaccine-related deaths and disabilities are being reported to the government, then the actual number of measles vaccine-related deaths and disabilities that have occurred since 2003 could have been as many as 980 deaths and 6,940 disabilities.
Copy-paste verbatim plagiarism from Mercola? Really dude?
But, herr doktor bimler, that actually requires Hunter to read with comprehension and actually think. It may be too much to ask of him.
You don't say. Where's The Healing Factor* stored "held"? What are its topology and geometry? How big is The Factor?
* If only <blink> tags still worked.
Narad: "What are its topology and geometry?"
How about its eigenvalues and corresponding eigenvectors?
The word "antibiotic" does not contain a hyphen.
Putting in superfluous hyphens is a dis-ease.
Where’s The Healing Factor* “held”?
It's in the blood, or so I hear from Renfield.
Hunter: first off anti-biotics do not cure anything.
Yeah? Tell that to my long-gone strep throat. If you mean that they don't cure EVERYTHING, neither do vaccines, but they work against the things they've been developed to work against. As far as nutrition goes, I dare you to find ten middle-class kids who have any real vitamin deficiencies at all. Also, you need to find some real information- I'm a total layman, but even I know that measles isn't transmitted through urine.
You had to go and bring up colonoscopies. Doctor said today I have to ride the python again.
So far I haven't developed Autism from the shingles shot, or any other side effect. It seemed to sting a bit more than other shots, but, hey, I'm tough enough to take it.
Oh, yeah, sure, I can read all about that. I just can't find anything on the "nerves that control, regulate and monitor the ear [and] begin in the brain stem, continue down the spinal cord and exit out from between the bones of the spinal column" that the Rev. Dr. William P. Trebing mentioned on his web page.
I'm starting to think that he might be wrong.
I just posted evidence speculation that suggests vitamin A does.
I can tell some people are getting there feelings hurt in the comments section of a blog:( Chris I'm sorry but you can't be pleased..your asking for specific PubMed indexed studies, which if they existed then you would have found them, as it seems you can only comprehend and believe things from PubMed. Personal attacks only prove you have no where else to go in your argument...Eigenvectors/Eigenvalues? I get that your trying to sound smart but please explain further what you are asking.
Look Chris a pubmed study, you will be so happy!!!
herr doktor bimler, my apologies I was in a hurry, i should have re-worded the article. And I did read it, I think you need to re-read it
Shay- sorry i misread what you said earlier..yes they show they didn't not prevent, rather treat
Dangerous bacon-it seems you have dis-ease with my hyphens
Politicalguineapig-"hey long gone strep throat the antibiotics didn't cure you"..is that good? Okay ill find 'em. Ya its not unless you drink it haha ..btw thats not what the study was saying. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20822734
Vitamin therapy is not just for those that are deficient
I was a skeptic re seeing a chiropractor. Mine is excellent and is has much education in natural medicine, nutrition and has been practicing for 30 years. When I feel sore from moving improperly or lifting something the wrong way there have been times I literally could not walk from the pain and my MD suggests narcotics. Instead I went to him and I was pain freee 100% after an adjustment. I don't think chiros are quacks like any other medical person you have to find a competent one.
I suggest you go see one when your in severe pain get an adjustment THEN provide your opinion. Basically dude sick wrote the article your lack of education and common sense is showing. RIP Katie May, horrible misfortune maybe not a good chiro, maybe pre existing condition and the adjustment was poorly done.
@ doug #161
Did you see the background I dug up on the Lovett case? it's in the 'Rare win for science' thread.
Hunter: Do you even know what strep IS? Streptococal bacteria, so, yeah, anti-biotics DID cure me. Sometimes Mother Nature needs a helping hand, ya know.
*Sigh* One, measles is almost always airborne. Two, who would even drink urine, never mind that of a diseased person? I almost think the dingleberry who would do that deserves measles. (Also, urine's not good for you.)
And finally, no. Body's a self-regulating system; if a person doesn't have a deficiency, the excess simply gets excreted, and there's very little benefit. Seriously, dude, this is middle-school stuff. It's really very funny that you're a grown-up dude (or pretending to be one), who's pretending to be smart, and you apparently never managed to attend a single class in school. Maybe you should call one of your parents and have them read those articles you've been posting to you.Better yet, go back to Mercola or whatever gathering-of-the-dim you came from.
herr doktor bimler, my apologies I was in a hurry, i should have re-worded the article.
Or perhaps you should have found a better way of amusing yourself than serving as a human centipede for Mercola's mendacity.
"I was a skeptic re seeing a chiropractor"/homeopath/naturopath/iridologist/reiki/therapeutic touch practitioner.
No, you weren't. You went looking for woo and found it.
Hunter: "Look Chris a pubmed study, you will be so happy!"
Posting the same stupid questionnaire survey study from Japan a third time after I told you the first time it was silly is just plain stupid.
Again that Vitamin A study does not show it prevents measles, and it is another study from Africa done.
Especially since it does not show how the present American MMR vaccine causes more harm than measles, mumps and rubella. Some advice: go to your local community college and take a "Basic Adult Reading" class.
I love all this Chiro hate going on. It's funny that people are so quick to dislike treatments such as chiropractic but are more than happy to trust GP's prescribing medication that also hasn't had correct testing procedures or even fixed results. Plus the ignorant trust you put into medicine and surgery that claim many more lives a year than chiropractic could ever. Also I have to say this is by far one of the most scientific, researched and brilliant pieces of factual writings I have ever had the pleasures of reading.
Totally agree with Cameron #24!
YES THE CHIROPRACTOR DID KILL KATIE MAY!!! My friend in NC was conned and defrauded by a chiropractor after going in for a checkup for very minor whiplash. Chiro created a whole story to do a neck manipulation and severely injured my friend! NC Chiro board stand by the scumbag Chiro to protect board. Friend suffers from nerve damage now and is struggling to survive!! Justice is needed for all the victims! Stay away from these chiropractor before they kill you!
The same thing happened to my husband several years ago. He had a headache and got a treatment from a chiropractic and he tore his artery too. He suffered a stroke 3 days after treatment. Fortunately he survived and recovered from his stroke. He also said after his treatment his knock really hurt. Something should be done. They should tell patients the risks of having treatment.
The truth is no matter who the doctor ( MD, DO, DC) is or what school they came from, a proper exam after a trauma was needed to asses her diagnosis. The chiro failed to exam and diagnose properly and so his treatment failed tragically his patient. There are risks with any treatment, just as their are benifits. Chiropratic has was way less risk versus any other profession by far and excellent benefits. The doctor delivering the treatment needs to be smart enough to make an extremely educated decision on when or when not to use certain chiropractic techniques. This is based on a full medical history, vitals, and the rest of the components of an exam. It's uneducated to blame a profession, just blame the doctor that makes the mistake. He just made a very bad judgement call.
In reply to #147 where the idiot says there is no mention of Hockey players with carotid artery injuries in the media......took me about 3 seconds to find these; perhaps you are using the Chinese internet?
Really anyone who takes this "psuedo-science" blog seriously needs to cut their dose of Xanex in half. Nothing they report here has any truth whatsoever.
No good science here, obviously the vertebral damage occurred during the fall to the neck not by the chiropractor. Clearly the author has a personal issue that should most likely be aired on a more appropriate forum.
@#206 Dr Trebing.
Why are people here talking about carotid artery trauma anyway?
The injury which killed Katie May was chiropractic manipulation causing damage to the vertebral artery.
Looks like Orac just got linked to on the Chiros Against The World blog.