The picture says it all, doesn't it?
Well, maybe not everything. There's lots that could be said, but personally, I find it hard to get much beyond shocked silence.
Can we please take our country back from the christianists soon?
- Log in to post comments
More like this
Oh, no. I spent a long day traveling, getting my daughter to the airport in Minneapolis so she could fly off to Phoenix for 10 weeks of research (she has arrived, and seems a bit shocked to be in a desert), and then I drove all the way back. I sit down to see what has happened in the world, and…
I'm a little late to this tea party, since Jason Rosenhouse and Larry Moran have already trampled on the biscuits and kicked over the teakettle, but I have to register my disagreement with this
polite and sincere article by Jake Young. It's got several elements that bug me badly.
First of all, don'…
Following up from yesterday's post about how knowledge about the biological basis for X doesn't tell us whether X is to be valued or pathologized, I need to put a few more points (including some questions) on the table.
First, in the comments thread to the Feministing post that prompted my post, a…
This week, we finally get to the elder Free-Ride offspring's part of last-week's bath-night conversation about energy. Here's the audio of the discussion, complete with splashing bathwater and odd squawks from my computer.
For those who prefer words on the screen, the transcript is below.
Dr.…
Oh, how I wish the cross was going to burn at night in order to be visible from a greater distance.
Ugh. Just ... ugh.
She really does look like she's brandishing that cross like a bludgeon. But Christianity is a religion of peace, of course!
http://rockstarramblings.blogspot.com/2006/07/doggerel-22-persecution.html">They're not done being persecuted, yet.
What is it with me and html today?
What a pleasant 4th of July image.
The symbol of a religion: an icon of torture and prolonged and degrading death. Here in Old England we have a very funny and wildly obscene comedian called Roy Chubby Brown. Up here in the North of Old England we have shebeens attached to Catholic Churches called Clubs, we also have burglars. For some reason a local Catholic Church Club (known to the local police as the 3Cs) invited him as an act for the evening. The day before Mr Brown guested, the club was burgled (again), small change and a few packets of fags (cigarettes) were half-inched. Brown came on stage, saw the life-sized crucified Christ that hung on the far wall of the Club and said: 'I see you got the fucker that burgled the place.' He was bottled and glassed off the stage without another word spoke.
"Give us your tired, your hungry, your poor ... Christians. Those wishing to convert before entry, please form a line to the right. All others need not apply. Have a safe trip back, and may Jesus have mercy on your souls."
Yup, exactly what Emma Lazarus had in mind.
What's is that statue of liberty wear and what's on its face? Is that a burka or sorts?
Gee, I wonder how soon we can expect the Senate to debate a new Amendment to protect the Statue of Liberty from desecration? Because, as this example shows, surely she needs it as much as the flag does.
When can we expect it? Um, . . ., never, I bet.
Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson were notable scientists, not notable Christians. It was not the prayers of the faithful which made America prosperous and powerful, or which won WWII or put a man on the Moon and robots on Mars - it was science. And America was not built on Christian values, but the ideas and values of classical Greeks and Romans - a bunch of pagans, not a few of whom were unrepentant homos.
Everyone who believes in the traditional values upon which this country was built should be appalled by these revisionists who are determined to destroy the American way of life.
So, is that a birka she's wearing?
Er ... not only did Castaa beat me to it, but I misspelled it, too. Sorry, it's been a rough day.
I think they got the position of the cross wrong...
http://static.flickr.com/67/181023853_c2aabe5c67.jpg?v=0
I was sure that was a photoshop job until the reality sank in. But perhaps because I come from the same place as lunartalks, I can see it as a bit of crappy kitsch rather than as something truly offensive. There's some wonderfully cult-like drawings of the statue on the church's website, here and here. I note that "Apostle" Alton R Williams is a follower of Kenneth Hagin, originator of the "Prospeity Gospel".
(By the way, I've got a post on the second item you draw attention to)
She's not wearing anything special. She's still under construction.
I have no words.
Well...that's just downright disturbing.
"Oh, how I wish the cross was going to burn at night in order to be visible from a greater distance."
A few well placed molotov cocktails and it would do just that, Jake.
There was a piece in our local paper (Austin American-Statesman) yesterday all about evangelical religious fervor and the coming of The End. It seems that some are looking forward to it and are doing all they can to speed it along. The President of Iran thinks that the Islamic version (not sure what to call it) could happen within two years. Since it involves the utter destruction of Israel and they are pursuing nuclear power, methinks there might be something afoot there...
These people are nuts...and scare the crap out of me.
Your huddled masses yearning to be brainwashed,
The wretched refuse of our failing education system,
Send these, the clueless, flummoxed, and lost to me,
I lift my cross beside the golden door!
Lunartalks, that is hilarious, reminds me of another story I heard. An atheist woman who restored old paintings, meticulously made sure her young son was not exposed to religion. Eventually she took him to France where she was restoring a chapel. The kid, who had never been in a church before, walked inside, saw the painting of Jesus on the cross and exclaimed: "What the F**k happened to that guy?"
I just hunted down their webpage and sent them this:
"Thank you for taking the time to bastardize the Statue of Liberty. I can now spend the entire 4th of July weeping for this country."
...and if you want to do the same:
http://www.worldovercomers.org/index.htm
Awww man! I'm tryin' to freakin' eat here!
uuhhhgghh..
Very sorry for triple posting, but while looking through their site, I found this wonderful little tidbit in their FAQs about the statue:
COULD THE CHURCH HAVE USED THE MONEY FOR THE POOR (EXAMPLE: FOOD, CLOTHING, AND HOUSING FOR THE LESS FORTUNATE)?
A) Of course it could have been used for those endeavors. We chose to do this...
And then they go on to explain how the spent so much money on other things...1/2 of which went to religious organizations.
On a positive note, we now know who the intelligent designer is:
"Apostle Alton R. Williams, conceiver and intellectual designer of the statue..."
From http://www.understandingforlife.org/store_items_view.asp?itemid=17169
"In God We Trust" on the coins . . .
"under God" inserted into the Pledge of Allegience . . .
a cross attached to the Statue of Liberty . . .
Not unlike a dog running from tree to tree, marking each of them as his own, hmmm?
On behalf of the (City) of Memphis, I humbly apologize for this rampant bit of stupidity. Not all of us here are that crazy, ignoring Elvis (who still lives, of course)
If you have not barfed yet, prepare, for here's the explanation for the tear:
"THE TEAR represents Lady Liberation's despair over America's rapid decline from its Judeo-Christian values. She weeps for our nation's self-destruction as the protective hand of God is removed. Yet, she realizes that there is still hope for America if we return to God through Jesus Christ."
Got all that? I thought that the tear was something else, something having to do with that worldovercomers name.
OMG. And Xtians have the cheek to claim they're persecuted!?
One really has to wonder what goes on in the minds of the people who invested their time and money on this thing. Will it cause the faithful to become more spiritually developed? Will it encourage others to adopt their beliefs? Is it even an aesthetic enhancement of the landscape? More likely it simply gives them something real to worship, considering that their invisible guy in the sky doesn't seem to be too sociable.
On the other hand, it'll probably encourage creativity in pranksters and graffiti artists.
OMG. And Xtians have the cheek to claim they're persecuted!?
No, when they do it, it's just preemptive self-defense. See, if they don't keep the kikes, homos, and atheists down, then all us damned infidels would do _FAR_WORSE_ to them. It would be funny if the whackjobs didn't actually believe it.
There's also this one from Ohio. I've actually seen it from I-75. Zarquon forbid that they'd have taken the immense sum of money this must have cost and donated it to a homeless shelter or a hospital instead.
http://www.roadsideamerica.com/attract/OHMONjesus.html
...
...
I've been saying for some time that the dominionist christians are not really Americans. And this is another data point in that argument.
They have a king who rules them, not elected officials who serve them. They believe in obedience to an ancient set of commandments, rather than the protection of an evolving roster of innate freedoms.
And now some of them have eclipsed an enduring symbol of freedom and inclusion and turned it into a cheap propaganda tool for their little sect.
Man, this is bad.
I'm eager to see if any ONE of the congressional whores pushing the flag-burning amendment has a comment about this.
...
...
Except the O'Hairs were killed by David Waters, a fellow atheist and office manager of their American Atheists organization. Unfortunately, he was a rather fucked up guy -- fucked up people exist with and without religion. But it doesn't really make a very interesting persecution story -- it's more like the recent case where a priest was convicted of killing a nun.
OMG. And Xtians have the cheek to claim they're persecuted!?
Her daughter Robin Murray O'Hair was murdered too. I used to chat with her back when I was a moderator on Compuserve's Collectibles Forum, around 1990 or so. She was a regular there. She was an incredibly nice person.
There's also this one from Ohio. I've actually seen it from I-75. Zarquon forbid that they'd have taken the immense sum of money this must have cost and donated it to a homeless shelter or a hospital instead.
http://www.roadsideamerica.com/attract/OHMONjesus.html
I like how that Jesus has a cross. Not a big one like he's supposed to have been cricified on, but a litle one, like a possession he carried around with him.
Stupid bastard should have known that would give people ideas...
As someone from outside the States, this kind of stuff just plain scares me. There *might* be examples of this kind of stuff in the EU (obviously in the Vatican, which is like a christian theme park as far as I'm concerned), but not on this physical scale ... I hope things like this are 'isolated' incidents, and not real common, as in that case I'd have a problem coming over on visits even.
On a lighter note tho, if the christians *must* have statues, please use this one instead. I find it friendly enough at least ;)
When you check the pages relevant to the statue on the website of the church that is building this thing, (click on my URL) it is very hard to tell whether this is a real site or a clever spoof.
If its a spoof it is really hillarious.
If it real, ditto.
It reminds me of a spoof site I once came across where they had a campaign for redoing the American Flag with a big "UNDER GOD" at the top.
I've often wondered about this thought. Does that mean God deliberately protects the US but not the rest of his creation.
Doesn't seem plausible except for people who see the enemy in very box of foreign cereal.
Does it ever bother these folks that the US is quite literally getting better in most social indicators?
I think a better argument could be made that he is extending his hand than removing it.
I like how that Jesus has a cross. Not a big one like he's supposed to have been cricified on, but a litle one, like a possession he carried around with him.
No, the big cross used to crucify that Jesus is in Groom, Texas.
It's actually kind of impressive - big, empty Panhandle Nowhere with a giant cross sticking up into the middle of it. But I still like the leaning water tower better.
Since when was it yours to begin with?
So one church makes this ridiculous replica and suddenly it's a vast conspiracy that all Christians want it like that. Ha! More broad-brushing from PZ, as usual.
Really, though. You people need to bone up on your knowledge of the Founding Fathers and what they said about Liberty. Even your beloved father of church-state separation completely disagreed with the idea that liberty stemmed from secular, earthly powers.
I have seen the Antiliberty. "She shall speak pompous words against Freedom, and shall intend to change times and law." "This is the Antiliberty, she who denies Liberty and the Freedom from oppression."
Jason,
You truly are without a clue.
Doesn't it ever bother you how often you use this idea:
It's always one church this or one church that but when you patch it all together the picture starts to come a little more clear. It's like playing those games when you turn over a card or something and each time reveal a piece of the picture.
So I ask after awhile don't you get tired of using this screech to put out, what appears to be countless, numbers of these stupid peoples fires?
And what does this have to do with anything? Surely your not putting the deist and theistic rationalist views of the founders up as proof of God giving us the thought of liberty are you?
Lady Liberation?
It's like they wanted to make her sound like Lady Liberty's evil alternate-universe double.
Did they see an angry left-wing comic and think to themselves, "Hey, this guy is on to something!" Are they planning on putting a hunting rifle in Lady Liberty's other hand? Satire truly is dead.
You must be speaking of this LA Times article that I discovered on some religious blog last week. (They reprinted it in full.) I think Clyde Lott is suffering from psychosis, a collective psychosis no less, and his red heifer idea is the kind of bizarre sacrificial cruelty that turned a little 5-year old me into a lifelong atheist. But it's people like Ted Haggard who really concern me as his New Life Church is over 10K strong. He talks to Bush, too, and they exhort their members to vote, at least in the New Life Church way. His comment about using technology is more of his "globalization [being] merely a vehicle for the spread of Christianity." Oh, and "free-market economics is a "truth." It's always a truth when you're standing atop a huge mega-church. Jeff Sharlet wrote an interesting and thorough piece last year on Haggard's church in Harper's that's worth reading.
It's too bad we can't send Ahmadinejad and Haggard with to do battle with eachother somewhere else; can you blame Hawkings for promoting space travel with these psychos running around?
That was off topic, but that picture of Liberty above just makes me want to disgorge my late dinner.
Uh-huh. Sure. It's all a vast conspiracy, right? Sorry, but this is the same garbage you and people like you have been trying to hawk for decades. It has yet to come true. Don't hold your breath because it never will.
Don't you get tired of caterwauling about some great "christianist" plan to take over the world everytime some minor little stunt like this happens? Don't you get tired of being wrong all the time?
Plenty. You all like to quote certain things by certain historical figures as "proof" that America was founded as a secular nation, but you ignore every quote by the same people or others that proves otherwise. Why is that?
Typical tactic by secularists: recast the founders as deists, infidels and "theistic rationalists" (well, they were theistic and rational, but not the way you portray them). Whether you do this out of dishonesty or just plain ignorance, I don't know. Either way, your wrong. The founders were quite religious and did not what a sterile, secularized country where religious beliefs were kept behind locked doors.
No, not as proof that God gave us liberty, but that they wholeheartedly believed that God gave us liberty, and our rights and freedoms that the Constitution prevents the government from infringing upon.
Well Jason I see you cam back to spout more jibberish:
People like me? You mean American Baptist? what am I trying to hawk other than I see alot of stupidity being perpetuated in religions name and you coming on here defending each and every piece of it by saying things like 'paint with a broad brush' without realizing that is exactly what it takes given the seemingly endless swathe of stupitity being produced these days.
I never said that and neither did anyone else. But what do you think that statue means to portray?
Some of the founders where religious some where not. How did I portray them other than accurately? The only dishonest person in this discussion is one who thinks the founders where a bunch of bible thumpers. Even those that where likely wouldn't recognize our modern version. And an honest man should admit the theistic rationalist and deistic positions of many of the key players.
All thoughts of men. Even if they did think God did what you say it wouldn't prove it didn't come from men.
"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."
-Abraham Lincoln, American president (1809-1865)
"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."
and, more famously,
"Lighthouses are more helpful then churches."
-Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, bigotry, and persecution."
"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people."
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
-James Madison, American president and political theorist (1751-1836)
"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."
-John Adams, U.S. President, Founding Father of the United States
"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."
"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
-Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat
And just for shits and giggle how is it that folks like you always miss the plain language when it was said 'The USA was not in any sense founded on the Christian religion' does it just not sink in or what?
I love this bit from their site:
The Two Tablets of Stone
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
(Old Testament)
THE TABLETS OF STONE represents the Ten Commandments and the importance of God's laws in society to establish morality and values. Scripture says that if we reject God's laws, then He will reject us.
To which I say - Exodus 20:2-5 (i.e. the first and second of those Commandments)...
You are probably not going to like this woman Episcopalian Bishop Katherine Schori who is in the news.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/02/AR20060…
"Trained as a scientist as well as a theologian, she entered the priesthood relatively late in life, 12 years ago, after an initial career as an oceanographer specializing in octopuses and squids. Her husband is a retired professor of theoretical mathematics, and they have a daughter serving in the Air Force."
"At the time, she was taking a graduate course in the philosophy of science and "reading Heisenberg and Bohr and Einstein and the great physicists who talk about mystery," she recalled. "Both things were, I think, a great nudge to send me off looking for spiritual answers."
In her study of marine invertebrates, she said, she saw "the great wonder and variety of creation." And when federal research funds began to dry up in the 1980s, three members of her congregation in Corvallis, Ore., suggested she become a priest."
She has moved on shall we say.
"To those who accuse her of heresy for referring to a female Jesus, she responds with a typically learned disquisition on medieval mystics and saints who used similar language, including Julian of Norwich and St. Teresa of Avila. "I was trying to say that the work of the cross was in some ways like giving birth to a new creation," she said. "That is straight-down-the-middle orthodox theology.""
Wow, this and Quicksand/Touchdown Jesus seem to be everywhere today! Here's some satire that may be of interest to people here:
http://blog.fritzliess.com/archives/2006/07/72foot_monument.php
Jason wrote:
Drop the mask of piety- we see through it, Comrade Wolf.
You and others like you are the modern-day followers of
"Pope" Alexander VI and Cesare Borgia- political manipulators
and HIJACKERS of the Christianity of Soren Kierkegaard.
You are a servant of of the False Aslan and a member of a
predatory cult feasting on the fears of otherwise good
christians.
Have a happy July 4th and don't forget your poisoned
switchblade while getting ready for whatever "freedom"
festival thing you will no doubt be attending today....
I've only just noticed that "Judeo-Christian" is paraphyletic; there's another religion in that clade. I wonder why it's excluded?
Happy Independence Day, all. Your country was a great idea - hope it gets back on track.
Sean Foley--
I know that cross! I recall driving across the Texas panhandle some ten years ago and thinking, "JESUS that's a big cross." After driving a couple more miles, I decided to take a picture of it, so I took the next offramp (which had an overpass), stopped, and took the snapshot. Even from miles away, the cross is quite visible in my picture. For me, it was an "Everything's bigger in Texas" moment. (Most recently confirmed by a friend's recounting of her visit to a porn superstore in Amarillo.)
Britons tire of cruel, vulgar US: poll
How perceptive of them.
Jormungandr: Amazing that they draw attention to the (limited) useful things that some churches do and they fail to because of their ... sculpture, shall we say.
It seems, to me, like an admission. If you have to change it to make it Christian then you have to admit it never was Christian in the first place. In that way, it might be a good thing.
How snotty, simplistic, condescending, and small-minded of you. Now shall we list the overwhelming impressions that Americans have of the British and their leaders, due in no small part to an endless parade of obnoxious sneering twits like yourself who can't resist turning an examination of fringe extremists into a cheap excuse to air his ignorant bigotries about an entire country?
Perhaps it's because with time the implications of this statue have become more clear -- or perhaps because I've had a lot more to drink since I last posted -- but this has now got me upset.
To place in her hand a cross, they removed the torch representing liberty. Removing from her arm a tablet upon which is written the date of our independence, they now place the laws of their preferred servitude. As they pressed onto her head their new spiked crown, did it make my lady liberty bleed? Did they reforge her chains?
Our symbol of welcome to all and hope to the world, now exclusive and only hope for the very few... I know alcohol is a depressant but that can't be the only thing at work.
Bah. I'm off to watch people blow shit up.
The picture of the cross in Texas looks just like one that's in Illinois. Maybe they're a chain restaurant on the inside?
http://www.thecross-photo.com/The_Cross_in_Effingham_Illinois.htm
Well, it's not just Britain. There have been a few polls done about this (here, here, here) and the results haven't been outstanding. Instances like the one above don't help your cause either.
Jason says:
"The founders were quite religious and did not what a sterile, secularized country where religious beliefs were kept behind locked doors."
That isn't what the documents says. The main document mentions religion once: "but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." ( http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#A4Sec1 )
The first amendment says:
"Amendment I - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
That is all it has to say on religion. It is purposefully separating religions free from a secular state. That is a secularised country with religious freedom under the common definition.
Ichneumon says:
"an endless parade of obnoxious sneering twits like yourself who can't resist turning an examination of fringe extremists into a cheap excuse to air his ignorant bigotries about an entire country"
It seems you missed the point that it was a nationwide poll. "77 percent of respondents disagreed with the statement that the US is "a beacon of hope for the world"." "83 percent of those questioned said that the United States doesn't care what the rest of the world thinks." So whatever you argue US has a PR problem.
My own view:
- "vulgar".
Vulgarity is a relative concept. Today I watched an episode of America's Funniest Home Videos with some drooling children and exposed asses. That isn't funny, that is vulgar, for me.
- "an incompetent president whose Iraq policy is failing".
Well, duh! (And what is it the US polls says on Bush?)
"a nationwide poll" Sorry, my bad, they didn't say. But the point that it was a poll remains.
"a secularised country" Sorry, my bad agai. Secularised state, of course.
Whadda ya eggspec from a group of people who haven't had an original idea in over 2000 years? Sumpin original?
I sure hope it isn't contagious. Whatever it is those folks have caught.
The torch was removed on purpose. It would be a conflict for the light of liberty to continue. Xians don't want liberty they want to be told what to do. Why do you think they subborn their lives to fairy tales and myths? Because they refuse to open their eyes to reality.
Caught the burglar, and Popeye priceless.
Man, I am just...so...tired of being outraged and disappointed by the religious bigotry of subhuman America. All I can say is that I am preparing for the civil war that will invariably come when these intolerant freaks get enough power.
When they come to take my hindu neighbor to their camps, I will stand and fight even though I am not Hindu...
Jason wrote: "Don't you get tired of caterwauling about some great "christianist" plan to take over the world".
See Matt 28:18-20.
Evangelical Christian am I.
Allow me to clarify: world domination is a defining characteristic of xtianity. While I support the spiritual idea therein, I detest the tendancy toward theocracy.
Government needs to be separate from religion.
"Can we please take our country back from the christianists soon?"
NO
You are going to have to either fight, or flee, and I'm not sure that Britain will be safe, either.
My bet is that Gliead will come in 2016, but it could be sooner ......
"The President of Iran thinks that the Islamic version (not sure what to call it) could happen within two years. Since it involves the utter destruction of Israel and they are pursuing nuclear power, methinks there might be something afoot there..."
Don't forget N. Korea - a REALLY scary theocratic state ....
However, the one place the Iraninas won't nuke is Jerusalem, and you cvab=n bet you boots, and everything else as well, that if attacked in this fashion, the one thing the Israelis WILL do is wipe Mecca off the face of the planet.
Every cloud has a silver lining?
The "reworking" of the statue is gross and signifies the gall of religious right, but it doesn't piss me off nearly as much as the second story. It falls in the same realm as flag desecration. It can anger you to your core but It's still a free speach expression.
The second story is just horrible and unfortunately I fear it is a more common circumstance than we know.
I say, I'm not sure what you're on about. As for American impressions of British leaders, perhaps you could produce some poll results revealing how many of my fellow Americans can name a current British leader other than Tony Blair.
Geez, what's the big deal? It's not like they're degrading a national monument. New York doesn't have any of those.
First we should find out how many can even name Tony Blair.