A while back, I mentioned these hate-filled loons in Kansas who were harassing a hotel owner because he was flying a rainbow flag—Pandagon has an excellent summary of the contretemps—in short, he had the flag in memory of his son, the local paper talked up the association of the rainbow with gays, and boy howdy, all of a sudden he was getting boycotted and abused by the community. In the latest news, some Kansas bigot has cut down the flag.
I had a letter from the hotel owners forwarded to me.
Robin & I can't even begin to come up with words strong enough to convey our
appreciation for all of your support and well wishes. Especially to those of
you that have booked rooms and even just sent money to help pay our bills.
Your the best.We are getting so many emails every day that we barely have time to read
them let alone respond to each of them in a timely manner. So I thought I'd
send out this Big thanks to everyone and then do individuals as time
permits.First of all, reading your letters at the end of a long day makes it allot
easier getting up the next day. So a BIG thanks for that!!!As you know our rainbow flag was hung outside of our hotel because we dearly
miss our son. It signified to us that he is just over the rainbow and as
soon as we can we will all be together again. When my good neighbors told me
to take it down, I assure you there was no hesitation. It will not come
down. Last night, July 30, 2006 some "person" cut it down, well most of it
anyway. Robin & I want you all to know that as soon as we can get a
replacement here, the rainbow will proudly fly again.My son's Rainbow flag is gone, cut by the very closed minded bigots that we
sent him home to get away from. Our new Rainbow flag will serve a different
purpose, it will stand for the very thing that THEY (the schalooses) wanted
it to stand for. Gay Rights, Gay Pride, Human Rights, Equality of the Sexes,
Equality of the Races, Diversity, Unity, Peace, The International
Co-operative Alliance's, The Inca banner, The Flag of Cusco, Peru, The
Wizard of OZ, God's Gift to Mankind, and everything else that the
homophobic, bigoted, ignorant ... people of the world fear.Our new Rainbow flag will fly as a reminder to my son, never to back down to
prejudice and tyranny no matter the cost, because once you do it will never
stop. Money and business is one thing but peoples dignity is much more
important.Before we bought the Lakeway Hotel a gay couple looked at it and the same
good christians that want my son's rainbow flag down told the bank, 'if you
sell to those gays, we'll all pull our accounts.' They'll never be happy,
and their hunger for control will never subside. Never!!! They change
scripture to suit their purpose. They are spreading ignorance and bigotry
one child at a time. Not my son.Our new Rainbow flag will wave :
At our friends that never made it to their 30th birthdays, Jim, John, Jimmy,
and Richard.At the group I counseled in High School who I vowed I would never reveal
their names or what we talked about.To my 7th and 8th grade teacher who taught me that gay people are just
people, and who the kids that called him a fagot behind his back eventually
named as their favorite teacher of all.To the two retired teachers Ruth and Madge who still reside in this old
brick Hotel, playing jokes and helping me see, I don't know if they were
really a couple, but if they were, good for them.To the gay and lesbian people of Meade and elsewhere, hiding in closets and
garages, letting you know that someday you'll just be able to be you.To all of the people traveling on hwy 54 who are afraid to stop in these
hick towns because they don't think they'll be accepted or worse.To Shawn and all the other people in the world that had the terrifying and
heart wrenching task of telling their parents that they are Gay or Lesbian.To Shawn's dad, my good bud Robert, who although probably didn't want this
for his son, hugged him, loves him and is very proud of him. I wish all
parents were like him.But most importantly our new Rainbow flag will wave in the face of Hatred,
Bigotry, Ignorance and the people who embody these traits as a constant
reminder that they can't control everyone or every thing. That god loves
every one the same. And that hate is a much bigger sin, than 2 people loving
each other ever could be.George Washington once said that the thing that separates the American
People from all other people of the world is that we will die on our feet
before we will ever live on our knees.I think it's time that we get up off our knees and stand together for what's
right. Even if we are a bit squeamish about what the right thing is.We might not be able to fix stupid,
but it sure is fun taking it apart!!!!
;)A BIG Thanks Again to All
we'll remember you, long after you forget us
JR & Robin Knight
Lakeway Hotel - Bed and Breakfast Inn
115 N. Fowler, Meade, Kansas 67864
PO BOX 1029, Meade, Kansas 67864-1029
Toll-Free: 877-276-2700 - Phone: 620-873-2700
lakewayhotel.com - innkeeper@lakewayhotel.com
I left the contact information in because people might want to book rooms there the next time they travel through Kansas…perhaps on the way to visit the Cretaceous rocks of the Niobrara chalk formation? It just goes to show that even if Kansas is the butt of many jokes, there are good people there.
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Wonderful... a light shines in Kansas.
It's weird that these people (the Meadeans?) are so uptight about homosexuality - Meade is way out in the middle of butt-f**k nowhere.
If I'm ever in Kansas, I know where I'm staying. It does me good to see someone standing up for what is right.
Yeah, it's wrong for people to jump to conclusions about things like rainbow flags and, oh, I don't know... cross war memorials.
Very well written.
I am driving through KS later this month, but will sadly be no where near Meade.
Hmmm. Private property versus public property... notice the difference?
Putz.
Yeah all those poor poor persecuted Christians in this country.
Yeah, it's wrong for people to jump to conclusions about things like rainbow flags and, oh, I don't know... cross war memorials.
Jason, you did it again. Faced with another religious bigot, you quickly change the subject some wingnut-friendly irrelevancy. Don't be a stupid weasel: do you support the actions of the people who cut down that flag?
greg: It actually makes sense that they'd be that way being out in the middle of nowhere. The root of this sort of hatred is an intense orientalism, and that sort of thing only happens when one group is segregated from another.
People in major cities are less likely to be that sort of prejudice just because they meet and know people that are gay/atheist/black/whatever other thing the bigots hate, and they realise that they are just people too. Out in the middle of nowhere, they never have that opportunity, so they just come to their own conclusions about a group before ever meeting someone from that group.
It's all about fear, isn't it? When some bigot is ranting about a minority, try saying, I'm not afraid of black people, or I'm not afraid of gays, and watch the reaction.
Jason wrote:
What part of the concept of public and private property are you
having a problem with?
The Lakeway Hotel is private property.
The Mt. Soledad Easter Cross is on public property.
But at least help is on the way for Mt. Soledad from the party of small government and bathtub drowners-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Soledad#2006
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On July 19, 2006, House Report Bill 5683, [12] a Bill to transfer the Mount Soledad Cross to the federal government passed in the House of Representatives by a vote of 349-74 (Roll Call). Sen. Jeff Sessions, (R-Ala.) [13] introduced identical legislation in the Senate that would allow the federal government to take the Mt. Soledad property by eminent domain. President George W. Bush, on the day of the vote, issued a "Statement of Administration Policy" that "strongly" supported H.R. 5683. The Statement read, in part, "In the face of legal action threatening the continued existence of the current Memorial, the people of San Diego have clearly expressed their desire to keep the Mt. Soledad Veterans Memorial in its present form. Judicial activism should not stand in the way of the people, and the Administration commends Rep. Hunter for his efforts in introducing this bill."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Put all the plastic santa sleds and walmart nativity scenes you want
on your *own* lawn.
"Schalooses", huh? I like that.
I'm seriously annoyed because I want to go and stay there to show solidarity and put a few bucks in their pockets ... and I'm in England! Beautiful and heartfelt letter, anyway.
It's so good to see people still fighting for ideals. With the news lately I'd almost thought it had ceased.
And all those poor, poor persecuted homosexuals in this country, too. I'm so tired of seeing them lambasted in the mainstream media and ridiculed on the highest-rated and most critically-acclaimed entertainment shows. And all those anti-gay parades in San Francisco are simply beyond the pale.
Umm, isn't this entire Lakeway Hotel story evidence of the continuing persecution of homosexuals in this country?
Jason: Textbook Troll
He makes one asinine statement, gets throroughly spanked for it, and comes back with a second asinine statement.
Do you really want to compare the fictional victimization of Christians here in the US with the actual discrimination and hatred perpetuated against gays? When was the last time you heard about a Christian getting beaten to death because of his religion?
Interesting that Meade is not far--maybe 50 miles or so-- from the small town in the Oklahoma panhandle where an atheist was recently acquited on trumped up assault charges. I know well water out there is often brackish, but there may be something else in it as well. So many seem to drink the cool aid.
It's not about private property vs. public. It's about what people are falsely perceiving what something stands for. The people who attacked and vandalized this rainbow flag under the presumption that it represented "gay pride" are as wrong as the people who are attacking the Mount Soledad war memorial and the Pledge of Allegiance under the presumption that they represent state sponsorship of Christianity.
Of course, that being said, the presumption of the former - however false - has more basis in reality than the latter. That doesn't excuse the attacks or vandalism, but in this day and age, it's really hard to fault people for thinking that a rainbow flag represents "gay pride." Almost anyone else would've likely thought the same thing, too. Don't tell me that not a single one of you initially would've thought that had you seen the flag and would have continued thinking that without any indication otherwise.
No, it's not. It's an isolated incident that is in no way indicative of some vast (right-wing) conspiracy against homosexuals.
If only... In my experience, the bigots tend to breed in herds. No 'one child at a time' about it.
Okay, Jason, let's put aside "presumptions" for now. You mentioned, "The people who attacked and vandalized this rainbow flag under the presumption that it represented "gay pride" are as wrong as the people who are attacking the Mount Soledad war memorial and the Pledge of Allegiance under the presumption that they represent state sponsorship of Christianity." So according to you, both sides made false presumptions. I'm willing to work with that premise.
But I would argue that more important than our presumptions are the actions we carry out as a consequence of those presumptions.
Now let's see the actions of both sides.
Atheists: exercise freedom of speech, freedom from religion, freedom of petition.
Anti-gays: cut down a rainbow flag, commit hate crimes.
You may see this as an exaggeration, but there is no question that hate crimes against homosexuals are a reality, whereas hate crimes against Christians in this country are unheard of.
Hmmmm. Guess the marriage amendment wouldn't be indicative of a conspiracy against homosexuals.
Mary Stachowicz, Nov. 13, 2002. What? You didn't hear about that? Gosh, I wonder why...
And you have, what? Matthew Shepard back in 1998?
"No, it's not. It's an isolated incident that is in no way indicative of some vast (right-wing) conspiracy against homosexuals."
Denial is a protective mechanism, I'm sure.
Um... They're "unheard of" because they aren't being widely reported! Duh! (See: Mary Stachowicz.)
No, it wouldn't.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Stachowicz
She wasn't beaten JUST because of her religion. It wasn't some random hate crime.
She was a co-worker and he obviously had some serious issues.
But it's a farce to say she was killed BECAUSE she was a catholic.
When the denial protects the truth, you betcha! Are your fantasies of some vast conspiracy against homosexuals a protective mechanism, too?
It's about time we get some statistics.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004885.html
Crazy Chemist
I think -
was a homosexual reference.
Damn it, the jokes are never as funny when you have to explain them.
I'd be fine with cross memorials on public property, with ten commandments in the schools and displayed in the city capitals. Put baby Jesus on the courthouse lawn.
Just give me, an Atheist, the EQUAL RIGHT to display my own symbols, sayings, and figures.
While you're at it, let's give those equal rights to other Americans, like the Jewish, Wiccans, Islamic, Scientologists, Mormons, etc etc...
Without equal rights, it's just discrimination.
JR Knight didn't even try to get his Rainbow flag on public property - just on his own private property. And he's persecuted for that by his bigoted neighbors. It's as silly as persecuting someone for having Lawn Gnomes and Pink Flamingos on their lawn.
What would it be indicative of?
Let's see. Under the "religion" category, we see that anti-Christian hate crimes are about proportional to anti-atheist crimes, whereas anti-Islamic and anti-Jewish hate crimes are overrepresented by far.
Under the "race" category, we see that anti-black crimes and anti-Asian crimes are overrepresented.
Under the "sexual orientation" category, we have anti-homosexual crimes divided into three categories, totaling 1147 incidents, totaling 15% of all hate crimes.
Oh, my post at 12:36 was in reference to the link I gave above.
Mary Stachowicz, Nov. 13, 2002. What? You didn't hear about that? Gosh, I wonder why...
I have heard about that. She happened to be killed by a gay man. She wasn't killed because she was Christian. Try again.
(I am going on memory here. I'll look it up to be sure.)
I'd gladly stay at that hotel. Gays are human beings also. They have the same feelings, hopes and aspirations as those that are not gay. It is pathetic that some people feel the need to hate and demeen them. It speaks to their narrow minded, small view.
As a rightwing Christian, Jason is going to see persecution of Christians everywhere, and to dismiss/defend his own group's persecution of others whenever he sees it. Jason works entirely in terms of group think -- his group good, other, demonized groups bad. Asking him to apply consistent logical standards to this is asking far too much of him. I'm afraid he actually believes that Christians are at least as 'persecuted' as gays in this country, because his identity as a homophobic Christian demands that this be true. It's an article of faith. Whether it's supportable is entirely irrelevant. Show him evidence that he's wrong and he'll either run away, or change the subject with some snarl about gays or liberals. This part of his debating strategy never changes.
Mary Stachowicz (Stachowicz Wiki entry)
Yep. Killed by a Gay man.
And John Britton was killed by a Christian man.
Does either murder prove that Homosexuality or Christianity is immoral?
Of course, that being said, the presumption of the former - however false - has more basis in reality than the latter. That doesn't excuse the attacks or vandalism, but in this day and age, it's really hard to fault people for thinking that a rainbow flag represents "gay pride." Almost anyone else would've likely thought the same thing, too. Don't tell me that not a single one of you initially would've thought that had you seen the flag and would have continued thinking that without any indication otherwise.
Posted by: Jason
Actually, as the mother of young children, I wouldn't have given it a second thought. Rainbow decorations of all sorts are very popular, not to mention the associated of Kansas with The Wizard of Oz. And if I read the article correctly, NO ONE thought about it twice until the newpaper printed that article.
Now, lets hope THIS post goes through
Jason, anything involving the word "God" isn't a neutral phrase given that "God" is a western word and at this point in time bears connotations of Judeo-Christian adherence that are insurmountable.
If you were to ask almost anyone in this country about god, I doubt the first thing they think of would be Vishnu or Allah.
And now for today's Back in Black.
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2006/07/lewis_black_on_3.html
You have it. Be happy. Stop complaining.
Freethought Sign Returns to Wisconsin Capitol for Tenth Year
She happened to be killed by a gay man because of her Christian beliefs. YOU try again.
Teehee. Doesn't violate any form of the first amendment does it. Love it.
You stop complaining first.
Except, of course, for that fact that I didn't dismiss or defend this series of attacks and vandalism, did I, Georgieboy? Lie much? Why, yes, you do!
Jason, you must be angry that in America, Evangelical Christians are kept from holding political office, or becoming judges or serving in the military, marrying, or openly admitting their religion. I can't tell you how many parts of America there are where Christians are terrified of revealing themselves as such, for fear of falling prey to one of the thousands of acts of anti-Christian violence that plagues this country. I think it must be all those homosexuals in Congress and the White House who are surpressing Christianity so terribly.
You have my sympathies.
Okay, Jason, do you now admit that there is a lot of anti-gay sentiment in this country and that this bigotry is often the root of hate crimes?
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004885.html
She was killed because she got in an argument with a guy that was very unstable.
I'm sure it was a hate crime. He hated her guts when he killed her. But not because she
was a christian. She hated that he was gay. Whatever.
Still not a hate crime.
You're delusional.
Except, of course, for that fact that I didn't dismiss or defend this series of attacks and vandalism, did I, Georgieboy?
Actually, it appeared that way to me.
Perhaps you should write more carefully, and refrain from bringing in extraneous material.
Personally, while I wouldn't take Rainbow Brite as a sign of Gay Conspiracy, there is a particular type of rainbow flag or decal which I associate with support for gay rights (whether the flag owner themselves is gay or not.) If I saw the 6-color straight-bar flag
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_flag
in the US I would assume the owner was probably pro-gay-rights.
Jason, how about acknowledging the demonstrated fact that anti-gay U.S. hate crimes outnumber anti-Christian U.S. hate crimes by more than ten to one, and admitting that you were wrong to impy, as you clearly did, that there was little real oppression of gays in the US relative to oppression of Christians?
I'm sure idahogie and J would be willing to admit, in turn, that their comments along the lines of "unheard of" could be seen as an exaggeration of "very rare." I think that's reasonable, though I apologize to them if I presume too much.
Anyone who seriously puts forth an idea that there isn't a widespread anti-homosexual movement in the right-wing is just delusional, but it's not surprising.
So is this a gay on christian hate crime?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV3jD5dOos0&search=phelps
Ok, Jason. This womans death was a tragedy but by my reading of this she had gone to the man who killed her and basically confronted him about being gay. I would imagine this man perhaps felt insulted and being perhaps an unstable individual went into a murderous rage.
A tragedy on both accounts.
Now the question you should be asking is that if this lady hadn't been indoctrinated with such thoughts would she had said anything but 'Hello, how are you' to this fella and would she be dead today?
My guess she would be just fine and so would he. In effect 2 lives where destroyed because of religious bigotry towards a certain section of humanity. To call this a 'hate crime' is silly and stupid. He didn't seek her out because she was a Catholic, she sought him out because he was gay.
You can't express to bang on people forever and then when they have actions in response claim 'hate' crimes.
A couple peripheral comments:
J: Excellent find, thank you very much, but if I may point out, the anti-Christian hate crimes don't look proportional to the anti-atheist crimes as you'd suggested, they look about 8-9 times greater, roughly the same proportion as gay-to-Christian.
And in that vein--why are the anti-atheist crimes so low? Given the public status of atheists, I'd expect more. Is it merely numbers (many fewer atheists?)
I want to go to that restaurant and tip like a gay person (fabulously). I hope their business skyrockets as a result of these idiots putting them on the map.
Jason said: "She happened to be killed by a gay man because of her Christian beliefs. YOU try again."
Well, according to that Wikipedia article. She wasn't killed for her Christian beliefs, she was killed because she tried to press her beliefs on that man. If you read it, it said that
"After asking Gutierrez, "Why do you have sex with boys instead of girls?," and attempting to "share her faith in Jesus with him" (convert him to Christianity), he flew into a rage and killed her."
If she just mentioned that she was a Christian, I don't think she would've died. If someone started arguing with you to convert to, say, Islam, wouldn't you get angry if they kept persisting. And apparently, Mr. Gutierrez probably did have some mental problems and took it wayy too seriously.
Please get away from this one incident that Jason has a hard-on for. The evidence is vastly supportive of the fact that there is more anti-gay crime than anti-protestant crime.
And the chance that more anti-gay crimes go unreported is more than likely going to be much higher than anti-christian crime.
If anyone thinks Christians are oppressed in this country they are simply morons. We control all branches of the government and perhaps 70% of the populace in one form or another.
I am a Christian and I have had it with the dishonest losers who run around with there weak apologetics, crying oppression and forgetting what it's supposed to be about.
Jesus I'm sure would be offended by the blantant religiosity of this nation of Pharisees who feel the need to put crosses and tablets everywhere while getting fat and lazy on their riches.
What these whiny ass Christians are experiencing is not oppresion but a declining privelege which is fine. We are a pluralistic society and that allows you to believe what you want, pray in private like your supposed to.
And I think Uber has a very valid point, she wasn't killed for her religious beliefs but rather how she was using them. She was making another human feel bad. Did she deserve to be murdered? Of course not, but the reason she engaged this individual where for irrational reasons. It truly makes one sad.
1. There are many more atheists than claim the title. Many who sit in church are as such.
2. Most people don't see it as offensive in day to day life. I think you can disregard the polls on this to a degree.
why are the anti-atheist crimes so low? Given the public status of atheists, I'd expect more. Is it merely numbers (many fewer atheists
I'd assume that it's because you can't tell an atheist by just looking at them, or seeing who they associate with. Gays are more conspicuous.
the Pledge of Allegiance under the presumption that they represent state sponsorship of Christianity.
Why is the request to remove one phrase from the modern pledge, which was modified during the McCarthy era, as a **direct** promotion of the concept, "We're not godless communists!", "presumptive" of state sponsored Christianity? What the $###!# do you have to do to be recognized as a state sponsor of Christianity, start giving out Catholic communal wafers to preschoolers and forcing them to be baptised of something? Defacto support of a religion, to the virtual total exclusion of all other opinions, in which the vestments of that religion are zealously promoted, to the equal exclusion of any argument against them, is **still** state sponsorship, even if its snuck in the back door with some lame, nearly 100% of the time false, claim of, "But, its how things have always been."
"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward."
Parallel isn't another word for "false equivalency", Jason.
Hey, rrt, thanks much. You do not presume too much; I am willing to admit that there are anti-Christian hate crimes. But they are very rare. Ninety-five incidents of anti-Christian hate crimes for a country that is 80% Christian is quite rare indeed.
And you're right that anti-Christian crimes are not proportional to anti-atheist crimes; I was using outdated demographics taken from back when Christians did outnumber atheists in this country 9 to 1.
I have no idea why anti-atheist crimes are so rare. I'm going to guess that it's because there is no outward manifestation of atheism. I'm also going to assert a completely unfounded correlation: atheism correlates with higher education correlates with higher income correlates with less crime. But that's not based on evidence.
Not that there aren't widespread, obvious, organized, politically active, anti-gay movements out there to be discussed, but please remember that "widespread bias and discrimination" is not the same thing as "vast conspiracy."
I've always thought if it's just a "concept" and it doesn't really "mean" anything.. Change it to "One Nation Under Allah" because really that's just the same "concept" and that doesn "mean" anything either.
Jason, I thought that Christians got off on being persecuted, you know, the whole martyr thing. Why are you whining so much? Do you think that St. Peter whined while he was hanging upside down on his cross? Did Joan of Arc act like a baby about being burned alive? I realize that Christians in the US are going through much worse these days, the war on Christmas/Easter and evil Hollywood are out to destroy all of you after all, but can you please try to show some spine?
Sadly, there is a certain type of Evangelical who is just not happy unless they think they're horribly persecuted and the world is about to come to an end.
Coincidentally enough Shakespeare's Sister had a piece on a similar subject yesterday.
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2006/07/epidemic-of-hatred.html
I also have a question about the hate crimes listed against Christian demoninations. Who were the perpatrators? Growing up in a rural area I saw internecine hate between Christian demoninations. Without any other enemy to externalize they ate their own.
Jason said: "No, it's not. It's an isolated incident that is in no way indicative of some vast (right-wing) conspiracy against homosexuals."
Absolutely correct. 'Conspiracy' implies some sort of secrecy, of acting while trying to prevent others from knowing your involvement in those actions.
The right wing is pretty upfront with their anti-homosexual bigotry...
I personally know JR & Robin and am a better person for that. They have extended their home to my family during a time of need, without hesitation. We recently drove to see them in Kansas and they could not have been better hosts to us and opened up their hotel and hearts to us. To see them persecuted like this hurts me very much because they truly are among the best people on this earth.
Jason:
That's all you got out of that story? Seriously?
This is the world you live in, isn't it?
I hope they fly another rainbow flag.
Dan that was funny.
If Jason had enough sense to read further itno Mary Stachowicz's tragic murder, he'd know that her murderer, Nicholas Gutierrez, confessed to killing her because her accusations and questioning of his sexuality reminded him too much of arguments he had with his own mother.
I see that butthead Jason is here, stinking up the threads with multiple slashings with his air-rapier (you play with it like am air-guitar, and with the same effect.)
I repeat, having stooped low enough to read through another of his empty, would-be vicious posts to be sure it WAS him: this man is too stupid to be a troll, he's the ultimate maroon.
What Jason ignores, and what the people pimping the murder of Mary Stachowicz distort deliberately, is that hate crimes are attempts to intimidate a group of people of which the victims are members. You bet your ass that every gay man in Wyoming was more afraid of being "out" in public after Matthew Shepard was murdered. The killing of Mary Stachowicz, as awful as it is, gives no cause for for anyone (especially as huge and amorphous a group as "Christians") to fear they will be the next victim.
The people pimping the Stachowicz murder as a hate crime against Christians are actually standing the idea on its head: They are working to reinforce the idea that there are lots of Other out there - gays, 'secularists', Muslims - who are liable at any time to attack someone specifically for being a Christian.
Bleh, I've contributed to Jason's success as a troll. I'll killfile him now.
Mary Stachowicz was killed for shoving her (fundamentally anti-homosexual) religion onto Gutierrez. If there was any persecution involved in this case, it was her's, not his.
This story reminded me of "Al the Anti-Lies Bear". Originally, Al was a cute little teddy bear, released by "objectiveministries" on Aptril 25, 2000. See their brief announcement. Here's a picture of Al.
The problem is, you see, that Al was purple. This meant objectiveministies had a dilemma. As they put in their June 8 release:
Here's an image of the rainbow Al. This had me rolling on the floor when I first saw it.
By the way; if you've not seen this site before, have a look through the the rest of the site before you decide who they are and what they represent. Don't jump too quickly to conclusions.
Kudos to the Knights; an inspiring story. Thanks.
Since Jason has been making such a big fuss over here, I thought it might be nice to give Canadian Cynic's take on this miserable cretin, seeing how the two have been at loggerheads for some time:
http://canadiancynic.blogspot.com/2006/06/its-june-so-it-must-be-time-t…
Apparently, Jason had been trolling CC's blog for a while before his comments got filtered, so I guess he's moved on to spew his nonsense in PZ Myer's realm, migrating from blog to blog like a particularly annoying parasite. Despite the fact that "Mr." (and I use this term loosely, of course) Jason has his own blog, he feels it necessary to poison the atmosphere of finer, more accurate and informative blogs with his venom. Do us a favour, Weasel Boy, and run back into the corner like the spoiled little boy you are. Given the amount of suffering the Knight family has suffered, your pathetic attempts at mitigating the events surrounding the B&B in Kansas are both insulting and unwanted. Bugger off.
I just love the depths of denial here. It goes far, far beyond anything you've accused me of. "Bigotry against Christians? Hate crimes against Christians? Surely, you're kidding! Christians are the perpetrators of hate crimes - never the victims!" To that I say, I'm not kidding, and don't call me "Shirley."
I've agreed that the attack on this hotel's owners was wrong and that the vandalism of the flag was a crime. I agree that Matthew Shepard's murder was a hate crime. I agree that any and all hate crimes against anyone are wrong.
But you don't. Oh, no. Mary Stachowicz's murder wasn't a hate crime. Nope. Even if it was, it wasn't based upon her religion. Heck, no! And even if it was, she was "forcing her beliefs on the guy who killed her," so she was really just asking for it. Yep. It was her fault, not his. And while Matthew Shepard's murder alone made all gays fear for their lives ever since, well, Mary Stachowicz's murder gives nothing for Christians to fear. Nah. It wasn't any big deal. Just some dumb fundy sticking her nose where it doesn't belong and getting what she was asking for. Good riddance!
Quick, someone please hurry up and tell me I'm exaggerating and building straw man arguments. Ooo! Better yet, dig up some more old posts on Canadian Cynic's blog because you can't formulate any intelligent, rational arguments of your own (not that CC does it for you, of course).
Of course, you can just go with the old tried and true "YOU'RE A TROLL!!! A TROOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!" bit. That's always a winner around here.
"You're a troll."
"Oh, good argument!"
"Thank you."
"YOU'RE A FOOL!!! A FOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!"
would work quite nicely, too.
(you're welcome!)
Your not a troll your a mindless goofball who simply can't see the forest despite the trees.
Lets see:
1. Hotel owners minding own business bigots deface their private property. Ok, you get that one, sorta.
2. Matthew Sheperd minding his own damn business is attacked and killed, again by bigots. Ok, you get that one.
3. Mary Stachowicz going over and bothering an individual who was minding his own damn business. This you don't get.
She was murdered and what you are doing in trying to make this a hate crime is frankly insulting to her memory in that you are trying to use her for a false cause. If it wasn't for her irrational belief she would be alive today and the unstable man who killed her would also have his life to live. Now two lives are ruined. He didn't hate what she was he hated what she was doing to him and the pain she caused him. It made him angry and apparently murderous. You simply can't push unstable people. She made an error unfortunately based on an irrational prejudice with tragic results.
If you can't understand that whats the point of discussing anything with you. Saying people say good riddance when they see the difference is degrading to her memory and and family should smack you a good one for doing it.
"And even if it was, she was "forcing her beliefs on the guy who killed her," so she was really just asking for it."
Yes, because that's exactly what we implied.
Your calls of denialism are blatant projection.
And I'm sure it serves your biases to think we wish death upon people like her, but it really is utterly insulting. The words I have reserved for you would probably get me banned. But hey, I guess I can't hold your repugnance against you, knowing your belief system and what ends you have to go to to maintain it.
"George Washington once said that the thing that separates the American People from all other people of the world is that we will die on our feet before we will ever live on our knees."
I find it ironic that the hotel owners used an original example of the bigoted American exceptionalist mindset in an email that condemns bigotry.
Americans. High horse. Get the fuck off it.
Again, if that's what you got out of this story, you're even more divorced from reality than we all already thought.
Section 280003 of the 1994 Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act defines a hate crime as "a crime in which the defendant intentionally selects a victim, or in the case of a property crime, the property that is the object of the crime, because of the actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin, ethnicity, gender, disability, or sexual orientation of any person."
The Stachowicz case does not fit any part of this definition. Gutierrez did not select Stachowicz as a victim, she forced herself on him. Had she not done so, there is absolutely no reason to believe that he would have killed her anyway, for any reason. There is a direct and indisputable causal relationship leading from her actions -- not her beliefs -- to his. Did she deserve to die? Probably not. Was it a hate crime? No, by definition.
Frankly, Jason, for you to sit around in your underpants screeching about how victimized you are for being a member of the most privileged segment of society would be hilarious if it weren't so fucking insulting. You don't get to claim you're persecuted just because the sane part of society doesn't think your ancient tribal superstitions are as fabulous as you do.
Let's say it AGAIN ...
All religions are based on fear and superstition.
All religions kill, enslve and torture.
"George Washington once said that the thing that separates the American People from all other people of the world is that we will die on our feet before we will ever live on our knees."
I find it ironic that the hotel owners used an original example of the bigoted American exceptionalist mindset in an email that condemns bigotry.
I don't know if Washington ever said anything like that. FDR did say: "We, too, born to freedom, and believing in freedom, are willing to fight to maintain freedom. We, and all others who believe as deeply as we do, would rather die on our feet than live on our knees." But he was talking about everybody - not just Americans. But you're right. That quote that the hotel owners apparently invented from out of thin air does express a bigoted American exceptionalist mindset, and is blatantly fallacious. Ironic indeed.
Crap. I cannot fucking believe I'm about to agree with Jason on anything, but some of the comments do veer a little too close to comfort to blaming the victim. Nothing justifies the murder, no matter what she was saying to him. We don't know what happened in the interaction - if she was innocently talking, if she was hounding on him, if she ignored or didn't notice increasing signs of agitation in him, but the fact that she tried to "share her faith with him", even if she was belligerent about it, doesn't excuse his behavior. That said, it still isn't a hate crime. Doesn't fit the definition, you can't claim it as such, Jason.
Can we please get off of Jason's little sidetrack and back to how great this couple in Kansas is? Most inspiring thing I've read in a long time.
Carlie, of course the comments veer towards blaming Stachowicz. That's why Jason chose the Stachowicz case as his example, because it's such a fine line between denying that this was an anti-christian hate crime and bringing in Guttieriz' sexuality. It's a perfect bit of troll-bait. Applause to Jason for being such a clever little troll.
So, recognising that Jason has managed to distract us from the big lies in his comments, let us mourn Stachowicz and Guttierez for a moment... and then move on.
In the stats that j linked us to upthread, I notice that there is, in fact, no "Anti-Christian" category, there being "Anti-Catholic" and "anti-Protestant" instead. Perhaps it's just the fact that there was this thing called "the Troubles" going on on the island next door, but it is my belief that the reason that these two are given separate categories is because Catholics and Protestants are most likely to be hate-crime victims of each other's. Perhaps the situation is different in the US, but I doubt it. So, in fact, there are no anti-Christian hate-crimes listed, and lumping together anti-Protestant and anti-Catholic as anti-Christian would be a gross methodological error.
Whereas gay-bashing is so common, alas, that it's almost not worth reporting unless there's something queer about the case itself. Such as the killers pretending to be gay in order to attract a victim, then claiming the "gay panic" defence, as in the Shepard case. Excuse me while I emit droll laughter.
Jason-from-Earth2:
I love the implication that it's been 8 years since anyone in America was killed for being gay. True, not all of these newspaper articles are about anti-gay hate crimes (and that will undoubtedly remain true as Google's news feed updates, but I think it's fair proof that, even after Shepard, gays have still been attacked and killed for being gay.
Still, I guess it's far more dangerous being a Christian. People might be mean to you on the interweb.
Jason, just so I understand your responses:
J presents you with statistics putting the lie to your earlier statements and implications regarding gay vs. christian hate crimes, and you utterly ignore them, focus on one case, and have the gall to imply that Shepard was the only thing that has made gays fear for their lives. Reinforcing, I guess, the conservative/creationist obsession with anecdotes supporting their claims in the face of statistical evidence. Or did I miss your acknowledgement?
J acknowledges exaggeration and charitably corrects it, and rather than acknowledge his concession, you spit on it and portray him in an even more extreme light. Or did I miss your acknowledgement?
I offer you an opportunity to back down with some dignity and to bring some civility to the discussion, which I quite readily state is often lacking on my "side" as well. You ignore it in favor of greater mocking, misdirection, and deliberate misrepresentation. Pretty sure I didn't overlook you taking the high road here.
These are the actions of a person with honesty and character? Of a man who responsibly leads a family and sets the example for his children?
I would still like to see you address these issues, but given what your response or lack thereof to them has been so far, I'm not terribly hopeful. I suppose, if anything, I'll be mocked myself.
...ow!...killfile...where'e that fucking killfile...
"Applause to Jason for being such a clever little troll."
Eh, I wouldn't give him that much credit. Any hint of cleverness related to the subtleties of the argument of hate crimes and Christians was most likely accidental - the only case that he could pull out just happened to be one with those features.
Jason amuses me. He sees the Stachowicz murder as "Christian woman killed for her religion" rather than "Christian woman killed for her rude behavior by an unstable man with mommy issues". He sees the Mt. Soledad cross as "war memorial having nothing to do with religion" instead of "privately-funded religious icon erected on public land, which suddenly became a war memorial decades later".
Or in other words, "what I want to believe" versus "what really happened".
Your confused, no one is blaming the victim per se, I am just commenting on cause and effect. Of course she didn't deserve to be murdered for what she did. No one would say such a thing or believe it. That doesn't change the fact that if she hadn't been so motivated by irrational ideas she would be alive today.
The murderer is of course wrong for his actions, extremely wrong but one can see cause and effect in this case and it's certainly not a hate crime which makes it different from the other cases.
Hey Jason!
Do you believe, word for word, in the literal accuracy of the Bible, both Old and New Testaments?
George Cauldron, give up. I do believe it is hopeless.
I figure if it makes him irritated or makes him go away, it's worth it.
Also, it's valuable for people to realize that Mr. Virtuous Christian Wingnut refuses to answer such a basic question.
No matter how many normal, intelligent people you irritate and drive away in the process?
--And you have, what? Matthew Shepard back in 1998?--
I may be a bit behind in the flame war, but this statement reminded me of Scotty Joe Weaver . I live across the bay from there in Mobile, the murder and subsequent protest of the funeral sickened me. Why can't good news ever come out of Alabama? It was two years, but it just shows bigotry is still around.
Steven H.
With all due respect, GH, I completely agree with Carlie on this: "[S]ome of the comments do veer a little too close to comfort to blaming the victim."
Some... veer... too close. Some. I agree. Carlie is not confused. Neither am I. She has an opinion. I share it. There is no misunderstanding.
But there's no need to be defensive. Nobody's pointing any fingers, and your own comments are not under any particular scrutiny. Furthermore, I agree that the cause and effect relationship you describe supports the argument against the characterization of the murder as a hate crime.
Gutierrez did not kill her because she was a Christian, any more than he killed her because she was a woman, a Polish-American, or a Cubs fan. He killed her because he was dangerously disturbed and unstable, and because she unwittingly pushed one of his highly explosive buttons one too many times. One might as well argue that it was a hate crime committed against middle-aged women who talk too damn much. And one point that has been widely overlooked in this specific case: if it was indeed an anti-Christian hate crime, then surely it was Christian-on-Christian.
At worst, Ms. Stachowicz deserved to be told to go to hell and mind her own business. She may have been rude, overbearing, judgemental, whatever - it doesn't matter! A 51 year old woman was beaten, stabbed, and strangled by an able-bodied 19 year old man with whom she was having a conversation. Any implication that she "asked for it" or "got what she deserved" is less than humane. Let's not go there. It's just not right. And why give the Jasons any free ammo, eh?
I have to concur. I do not think the Stachowicz case is a hate crime, but her killer did have more than his fair share of hate. I don't care how abusive or persistent or obnoxious Stachowicz's proselytizing could have been -- it was not sufficient to warrant any kind of violence.
Caledonian complains: No matter how many normal, intelligent people you irritate and drive away in the process?
If people aren't already driven away by Jason's clueless trolling or MP's bloated sermonizing, I doubt that GC's short, to-the-point question is going to do it.
Ooh, I like this line.
Arkansas is a little too close to Kansas for comfort right now. (Not that AR are any better.) I will never understand why people have such a deep need to hate
Jason:
Liar. The gay man killed her because she was hounding him about his homosexuality.
Don't you know that it's a sin to lie?
Kudos to you for standing your ground!! If these narrow-minded people in that community ever went anywhere but Kansas they may realize that times are changing. there are much worse things to be frightened of than a gay person. the truth is most gay people would never hurt a fly because they are the most beautiful spirited and biggest hearted people you would ever meet. Maybe that preacher and the bigots should get out more and they would see that there are much worse things in this world like war, drugs and other closed-minded people such as themselves. My family is planning a trip to Meade State Park very soon to get away from the 'real' troubles that this world has. I do beleive that we'll stop in and have dinner at the Lakeway Hotel and put a lttle money into their fine establishment. And i hope they spend that money on another rainbow flag to help brighten up that town.