So why do we care about the Vatican's position on science, anyway?

They've had a chief exorcist for about a millenia and a half. This is news to you?

I think we should care about the Vatican's position on science, as many people the world over take them as the primary authority on everything (for right or wrong... though I know which I lean towards, especially with this new pope)

Yes they are essentialy a bunch of quakes, but they still have a surprising amount of sway, so we should be happy and encouraging when they get something right, and we should speak out when they do something stupid.

The opposite argument is that such encouragement grants them legitimacy. I tend to agree with the gist of this posting, that the Vatican's views on science can only be accidentally rational, and that the core attitude any rational person should take toward the Vatican is that it is the organizational head of an insane and fanciful ideology. Encouraging the Vatican to accept evolution is like encouraging Scientologists to accept Ohm's law.

You know, someone here once pointed out that, when you treat Nazis as otherworldly bogeymen (and I'm sure this goes for Maoists, Stalin, and every other genocidal movement that you can think of), you're in very real danger of allowing them to repeat history.

It wasn't even the Nazis, so much, as the millions of Germans who stood idly by and allowed that to take place. It wasn't the devil, it was complacency and nationalism.

Anyway, I suppose the Catholic church must have been "possessed by the Devil" when it threw its support in behind the fascists.

I think it's surprising that they STILL have one.

Boo! I got the devil in me! Help me Jesus! Help me!

Blaaargh a blehhh chivas regal allah oh momma mia!

Do they have flying monkeys? I like flying monkeys!

Perhaps people in the US don't need to care (catholics are a minority anyway), but I do. I've enjoyed the fun of American culture wars, and all the ID-debunking in SBlogs, etc, while having the comfort of coming from a country (Chile) and living in another (France) where ID is no issue at all. But if B16 joins the DI, it spells doom. In Chile the catholic church is still very powerful; divorce exists legally only since a couple of years, and abortion is a word better avoided by anyone who hopes to run for any office. If the bishops start talking against evolution, too many people will listen. It may be fun, of course, having to join the fight, buy that FSM t-shirt and all... But it would be much better if IDiocy remains a local and not global menace.

Heh, sorry. I spoke too soon. Harry Potter's magic is the signature of the devil, so this is proof that both Hitler and Stalin were possessed by the devil: (Warning: Extra Stupid)

http://www.comics.aha.ru/rus/stalin/

Thanks for the link, PZ. What I thought was pretty funny was Amorth's claim that all Nazis were possessed by Satan.

Umm, would that include the Pope as well?

He was, after all, a Nazi.

What an excellent day for an exorcism! Has our President scheduled an appointment, perchance?

Well, a few demonic possessions would certainly help explain the current Administration! Cheney even looks the part....

Yeah, Condi is my fault. I was trying to prove to one of my friends that Grimoires didn't actually work, and the best way to do that is to attempt to summon a demon.

Sadly, I was proven wrong. After she appeared from the chasm of fire and brimstone that appeared in my basement floor, she ate my guinea pig, spun her head around a few times, and then ran up the stairs and out of the house spouting something in an ancient and vile eldritch tongue. I think it was something about aluminum tubes and uranium enrichment, but my understanding of the language of the Old Ones is a little shabby.

So, sorry about that.

Heh, and you thought the ID folks had a big tent.

Ha,if Condi Rice is a demon, what does that make Ann Coulter?

A Chupacabra.

Pardon me.
A Chupacabra with a heroin addiction.

Where is Condi anyway? Is she hiding while the old guys try out some new scare tactics on us before the election?
If the Devil exists, then condoms must be Devil Balloons! Which actually might be a good marketing name for them...

You know I'm glad to see this in a way for all the good the Catholic church does as an answer to religion questions about evolution they need not get a free pass on the rest of the lunacy the spew.

For while the fundies rightfully take the heat in the USA it should be noted the catholics are no less nutty just nutty in different ways.

I think the biggest point here is that when kooks say something rational, it's not really relevant because they're still kooks. I just can't buy into the position that an invisible evil spirit is always on my tail, so I better accept another invisible spirit into my heart so I don't roast for an eternity.

A demented fwit is a demented fwit, always.

The pope is a pious asshole with the mind of a child who wears a funny elaborate costume because he thinks it somehow enhances his super-powers. Bridled with arrogance labeled as righteousness, his reality incorporates imaginary actors, invisible places, and fabricated human conditions. He is the head of an institution which has killed millions for the causes of bigotry, conquest, and ignorance; an institution where kindness and charity is granted for the opportunity to inculcate. He, his institution, and those that bestow upon it any measure of decency are the heirs, accomplices, and curators of human misery, conflict, and suffering. Behold the christian legacy.

MikeM:

I think the biggest point here is that when kooks say something rational, it's not really relevant because they're still kooks.

Exactly. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, but I wouldn't trust one anyhow.

This is kind of horrifying but at the same time I'm kind of impressed that someone would have the audacity to draw a paycheck for a job like that.

The pope is a pious asshole with the mind of a child who wears a funny elaborate costume . . .

It's called a "dress," Alex. (Or at least in English, it is.) Say it with me: The Pope wears a dress. Just like Barbara Bush or the Queen Mum.
* * *
Actually, as priests' gigs go, being an exorcist sounds like fun: lots of travel, no parochial duties and you get to make stuff up as you go along. And I bet some of the posesseds' families are big tippers.

To answer the thread title's question, we care because of purely political considerations. Having this farcical politico Pope deciding to back ID would allow it just a bit more time to fuck things up here in the States a bit longer. ID is essentially dead, but the blessing, however phrased, of the CC would keep it on life support, starving to death, for at least some time. Better it should die now and we should look for signs of the next, even weaker, strain of creationism to appear.
The Pope himself would risk nothing in backing ID, since the sheep who accept his authority over such matters could never be affected by the most blantent proof of his error, nor would the more reasonable members of the Church be likely to abandon their "faith" (I just can no longer allow that word, in this usage, to remain without quotes) if the current pompous, politically-minded fool named Pope were proven wrong, even insincere, in the most public and embarrassing fashion.

Molly,

K,....here goes:

The pope wears a dress (that looks like a funny costume).

Sorry Molly. I guess I just didn't have it in me.

With apologies to Emo Philips:

I'm sure that Ann Coulter has weekly lessons with Satan on how to be more evil. I just don't know how much she charges him.

Speaking of Emo, he was here in town (Minneapolis) last week, and said, "Now we have intelligent design and evolution. I have some advice: If you are ever confronted with two competing scientific theories [sic], select the one that doesn't involve a magic spell."

"One of the key requirements for an exorcism is to be present in front of the possessed person and that person also has to be consenting and willing."

Now I know why those darn exorcisms never work!

Alex, you and I are peons compared to the Pope. We buy off the rack. He has a dressmaker (or whatever he calls it). He could be swishing around in the finest bespoke suits. Instead, he chose to go for something . . . comfy.

*head spins*

*projectile vomits*

Help me Jesus!

Show me where the Church has definitively declared Harry Potter as evil.

Not some random bishop. A declaration from one of its congregations.

Ok Molly,
You got a grin out of me with that post....DOH!
But that hat....it looks just so ridiculous!

Ok, sooo the Crusaders and various other atrocities of the church...also the devil?

What a bastard that guy is.

Ok Molly,
You got a grin out of me with that post....DOH!
But that hat....it looks just so ridiculous!

hehe.

Apparently the Pope blew an exorcism in 2000.

http://www.cathnews.com/news/009/46.html

How christians feel about Harry Potter. I guess he offers a competing fantasy.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/11/15/taiwan.hpotter/

http://www.crossroad.to/text/articles/Harry&Witchcraft.htm

http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/RINVol5No1/Harry%20Potter.htm

Steve_C:

Apparently the Pope blew an exorcism in 2000.

Hey, go easy on the guy -- more than a few Cardinals have blown altar boys.

The appalling part, of course, is in the final sentence of that article: "...adding that the girl has been possessed since she was 12." This suggests to me a desperately mentally ill young woman who's been relegated to unimaginable suffering by a culture of unforgivable stupidity.

She's a WITCH!!! Let's see if she floats!!

Oh look, they have an exorcism prayer (it comes with a warning: to be said by a priest only. So don't try this at home!):

[Some preliminary b.s.]

Most cunning serpent, you shall no more dare to deceive the human race, persecute the Church, torment God's elect and sift them as wheat. + The Most High God commands you, + He with whom, in your great insolence, you still claim to be equal. "God who wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (I Tim. 2,4). God the Father commands you. + God the Son commands you. + God the Holy Ghost commands you. + Christ, God's Word made flesh, commands you; + He who to save our race outdone through your envy, "humbled Himself, becoming obedient even unto death" (Phil.2,8); He who...

[yada yada yada]

+ The glorious Mother of God, the Virgin Mary, commands you; [Now that's more like it!] + she who by her humility and from the first moment of her Immaculate Conception crushed your proud head. The faith of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and of the other Apostles commands you. [not impressed] + The blood of the Martyrs and the pious intercession of all the Saints command you. + [eh, so what...]

Thus, cursed dragon, and you, diabolical legions, we adjure you by the living God, + by the true God, + by the holy God, + by the God "who...

[yada yada yada]

Begone, Satan, inventor and master of all deceit, enemy of man's salvation. Give place to Christ in Whom you have found none of your works; give place to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church acquired by Christ at the price of His Blood. Stoop beneath the all-powerful Hand of God; tremble and flee when we invoke the Holy and terrible Name of Jesus, [fat fucking chance!] this Name which causes hell to tremble, this Name to which the Virtues, Powers and Dominations of heaven are humbly submissive, this Name which the Cherubim and Seraphim praise unceasingly repeating: Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord, the God of Hosts.

[etc.]

Maybe if they asked a little more nicely it would work better. If I were inhabiting someone, I would feel pretty darned insulted.

On that subject, I invite you people to read the Bible -- it states that Jesus Christ had driven out numerous demons, thus making him an exorcist:

Matthew 4:24, 7:21-23, 8:16, 8:28-34, 9:32-34, 10:1, 10:8, 11:18, 12:22-28, 15:21-28, 17:14-21
Mark 1:32-24, 1:39, 3:14-15, 3:22, 5:2-20, 6:12, 7:24-30, 9:38-40, 16:9, 16:17-18
Luke 4:33-35, 4:40-41, 7:33, 8:1-3, 8:26-39, 9:1-2, 9:42, 9:49-50, 10:17, 11:14-20, 13:32
John 7:16-20, 8:48-54, 10:14-21 (here, JC is accused of being possessed by demons)

He also used what may be called salivary therapy:

Mark 7:32-35, Mark 8:22-25, John 9:1-7

She's a WITCH!!! Let's see if she floats!!

And if she do... ARRRHH! We got us a fine boat, me lad! To the The Sea Witch!

I think many in vatican think this ID thing is a great idea, a bit like "lets help ID and ID will help us". Seems like an opportunity to gain momentum and give the church benefits right away now, huh? GRAB IT!!
Truth is, it may help ID; but the inevitable outcome for the church will prove it to be the most stupid move in quite a long time. They may even have to take it back.
Its pretty silly to place yourself at odds with the knowledge coming from the field of biology. While ID will certainly appreciate the support, the church will alienate itself from mainstream biology, in favor of minority of "theroetical parias" (to put it gently) with no line of research to show for all their mumbo-jumbo.
They are many catholic universities in the world where evoutionary research is done. It will produce unavoidable problems. They will also lose any claim to moderation. They will lose the silent sympathy of the moderates, both catholics and atheists, who believe poeple can accept both catholicism and mainstream science. They will have qualified for extremism. You now, there are lots of good scientists out there, who are catholics. They will not be able to say anything for the church on this one. They will become genuinely sad. They will rightly feel embarrassed in front of their atheist colleagues Believe me, the church WILL lose, bigtime.

Thye may fail to ealize that most science loving people find science cool on its own self, not as in mixed with boring and obviously biased churchy talk. All they will be doing is preaching to the choir, not latching onto science's popularity at all.

What are they going to do? They will repeat "gods intent is the only rational thing", which, being apllicable to all, not only evolution, does not bother me even though I don't buy it. They will of course caricaturize any alternative as some random blind foolish "nothingness". But will they condemn common descent? Will they declare the ape-men "aberrations"? . Cause that is what Id is. Plain creationism. If they don't, I don't think I care that much, really.
Anyway, whatever they say, if they intend to keep their "forgiveness" style (probably not as popular now as it was, though) they may even throw in a couple of kind words for us the evilutionists. And if they are smarter, they will inclue some strings attached, so they can take it back when people lose interest and get bored of religion again...
But then who knows...just how alienated has the church become, not to realize how important science has been to western society? It impossible in the long run.. and, once again, the catholic church will forced to do what it has to do, like it or not: It will compromise.

Hoody? What the hell was that? I mean, just, what the hell, man?

Addressing PZ's original question, I think whether the Vatican's opinion--which is what it is, not some learned analysis--matters depends on where. In the US, the average Catholic probably doesn't care. Europeans will, of course, ignore the Pope. And in Africa, Latin America and the poorer reaches of Asia where Catholicism is on the rise, I doubt the believers will care; living conditions make issues like ID and evolution rather unimportant. Of course, the DI will crow since some of their stalwarts, like Behe, are Catholic. But many of their supporters who are fundamentalists will cringe; they view the Pope and the Vatican with great suspicion.

"He also used what may be called salivary therapy:
Mark 7:32-35, Mark 8:22-25, John 9:1-7
Posted by: Loren Petrich"

Does that mean Jeebus drools on people to evacuate the demons? Holy Spit!

The whole concept of demonic possesion seems purely like a way to exonerate very real human evil. "Oh, the Nazis weren't really bad guys, the devil made them do it!" Bullshit. Don't give them a pass. They really were that bad, and it's vital for us to remember how easily normal people can become monsters, so we don't do the same.

"Truth is, it may help ID; but the inevitable outcome for the church will prove it to be the most stupid move in quite a long time. They may even have to take it back.
Its pretty silly to place yourself at odds with the knowledge coming from the field of biology."
You mean exorcism is not at odds with modern biology?

Nah, it's quite amenable to modern biology. Just the other day I had a cacodemon strapped to the dissection table. It's really hard to breed those little bastards in captivity, so the best way of getting them is to yank them out of a possessed person.

Well, I guess this lets Darwin off the hook.

Jeebus...

They don't believe in ghosts. Ghosts don't exist.

Demonic possesion though, is real.

Aye, they be possessed.

Doesn't this just scream for a reality show?

Doesn't this just scream for a reality show?

On Byrne and Eno's My Life in the Bush of Ghosts" (released in 1979) there's a recording of a local-access TV exorcist doing his thing. He'd have the possessed people touch his hand on the screen while they spoke to him over the phone, and he'd cast out their demons then and there.

It's track 5, "The Jezebel Spirit." Great rhythm track.

Hmmm...I wonder if Gabriele Amorth was 1 of those newbies they hired at the Vatican on the 1st release of the Exorcist in the 70's.
In nomine, domine, vobiscus selius celius, feely me bonny belly...
I'd always understood that the RC, way back in the 15th (16th) CE, released a document stating that the accused had to be examined physically & mentally, before the final prognosis.
RDG:
"Does that mean Jeebus drools on people to evacuate the demons? Holy Spit!"
Actually, if memory serves, ole mr. mythical spit between 2 fingers, said "Ephphatha", & healed the deafmute.

Fascinating, as there's no mention of demonic possession in the OT. They believed that a person was possessed by a dead person.

How convenient to make such a statement after so long a time. I mean, first they were in league with the devil. Then they waited to see who would win the war. And now after decades they start brushing their feathers. What was the story again about giving little pinky fingers to the bad boy?

My attitude about this sort of thing (as a secular catholic academic humanist -- better get situated) is this. It's hard to understand the historical consciousness of the sort of people who are involved with the Church at a high level.

They sit around in a weird sovereign pre-modern 'nation' with no female citizens, whose official language is Latin; a little nation located inside a city that is metonymic for pre-Christian Europe.... In other words, these guys are working in a time frame not quite geologic, but almost. I mean, you guys laugh about their obtuseness and outdatedness, but these guys have been around, doing the same thing, since shit..., like a millenium and change before Francis fucking Bacon and his ilk came around, let alone Darwin. For all we know, the attitude in the Vatican about secularism, Darwin and scientific cosmology might be this: ignore it and it will go away. And you know what? On the kind of time scale they're thinking on, they could be right. They have ridden out some pretty wild times. The fall of Rome, the division of the empire, plagues, famines, heresies, the Reformation, the thirty years war, Napoleon's campaigns in Italy, liberalism, Marxism, the formation of an Italian nation state around them, a pair of world wars, the cold war: through all of this, they have kept on chugging. You think a little evolutionary theory or people talking about how the devil doesn't exist is going to throw them off their game?

- If you do not believe that it is possible for demons to exist, then how is it that HITLER and STALIN can exist??

"In the past Father Amorth has also spoken out against the Harry Potter books, claiming that reading the novels of the teen wizard open children's minds to dabbling with the occult and black magic."

I think they forgot that "Judge not, that ye be not judged. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" (From the christian black book.)

"The demons came out from the man, and entered into the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake, and were drowned." (Ibid.)

Nope, nothing occult or magic here. When pigs fly.

Oh, yeah. The Vatican says Hitler was possesed. So then, the Reichskonkordat of 1933 means they were in league with demons?!? Ratpoison and his cronies must have memory problems, or think people are stupid. Hang on, a bloke in a frock and Prada shoes who says a virgin had a baby....yup, stupid it is.

Torbjörn: at least Hitler and Stalin weren't PYGMIES or DWARVES (except perhaps in the moral sense...).

nv
well argued, but as regards ID they are currently (and in my view strangely) not ignoring it. Taking sides in that dispute seems to me a lose/lose situation for the vatican.

I mean it was only a few years ago that they apologised (sort of) about Galileo. They don't have to pick a fight with science, so I can't understand why they are doing it.

It could kill them in Europe (where they are losing influence rapidly) or end up in a schism, they would end up being strictly a third world sect.

On the other hand, if they come out and say the Pope is wrong on this (which is possible) he loses face and authority. This pope has no political common sense.

PZ, you should enjoy
http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/08/summer_institut_1.html
where Sir Toejam once again lies about your views.

The church is crticized for not opposing Hitler, but around here if you try, as a Christian, to present your views on an issue you are told to shut up and stay out of politics...separation of church and state, you know.

As usual, with the fundamentalist atheshit fanatic it "heads I win, tails you lose".

I.E. a double standard.

I say, atheists should keep their own metaphysical views out of politics.

(By the way, that is some REAL IMPRESSIVE scientific research PZ Myers has been doing.

Yer sireee!!!!!!!!!!)

They have a chief exorcist?

Start with the Pope. Work your way down.

Why would anyone want to belong to an organization
that got Galileo wrong? How about being stupid.

Am not impressed with their made up bad guy.

Satan is boring. Now Q from Star Trek. THAT'S someone
to worry about.

Or the Borg. "Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."

Oh yeah? I don't think so.

So, let's see. Kansas has two more posts to prove it isn't a troll. [begins cleaning his gun].

I hp tht s nt thrt, Gf, bt I m tkng th lbry f rprtng t t th srvc prvdr, tc.

I hope that is not a threat, Gof, but I am taking the libery of reporting it to the service provider, etc.

There we go with the literalism again. Please see this post for the troll/gun reference

Side note, although the last post showed a sense of literalism, I guess Kansas gets 2 more posts before the comment assault begins (look, no REAL GUNS).

This clown has posted as Follower of Cocky Bastare, Emanuel Goldstein, Kansas Citizens for REAL Science, Cocky Bastard, Blair, Goldstein, Goldsteins ally, Student of History, Jim, Agent of Goldstein, and several other aliases. He is a known troll who has been banned at KCFS and PT.

You have permission to take him out on sight.

He's on my list as deserving of disemvoweling.

The church is crticized for not opposing Hitler, but around here if you try, as a Christian, to present your views on an issue you are told to shut up and stay out of politics...separation of church and state, you know.

Could you give examples of someone presenting their views on an issue here and being told to shut up? As a long time reader I have seen plenty of counter arguments to opinions, often backed up with scientific research, but I don't recall anyone being told to keep their opinions to themselves -- instead, they are often asked to defend their position using ration/logic.

Great, the I follow the new commenting guidelines, and it turns out to be against a known troll...

Well, they fired their astronomist, in keeping with the rest of their strange beliefs maybe they should relace him with an astrologer.
I have heard that the year the movie the exorcist came out, there was a huge increase in the number of possession cases. Strange that these demons are so suseptible to our movies.

It's hard to understand the historical consciousness of the sort of people who are involved with the Church at a high level.

So they sit in the Vatican and pretend nothing has changed or will ever change because the Church and its doctrines have been around for a long time and will outlast all the fads like biology and the theory of evolution.

If they are so unconcerned about the present, maybe they should stop making their dumb pronouncements about stem cells and realize that gays have been around a lot longer than the church and don't want to be discriminated against.

Hell, the universe has been around a lot longer than the Catholic church. It could care less what the dweebs in the Vatican think about it.

t hv lrtd th srvc prvdrs bt th gn rfrncs.

m hpng ts ll jst jk.

Oh no! Not the service providers!!!11!.

What is it with these guys and metaphor?

And sock puppets? Have they never heard of IP addresses? This shit ain't exactly hard to monitor.

Sr thy hv, Jckff, bt wht d w cr.

W sr s hll n't gnn s r wn cmptrs!

Hhhhhh!!!!!!!

Jckff

Dude called me jackoff, like that really offends me. 8^D

Hy, PRFSSR MYRS, s y r cmmntng vr t KCFS nd tht FTK rlly clld y dwn, y wmp!

Dd y gt bt p n schl lt whn y wr kd?

Please stop bothering us. We're busy counting our money.

Hy, PRFSSR MYRS, s y r cmmntng vr t KCFS nd tht FTK rlly clld y dwn, y wmp!

Dd y gt bt p n schl lt whn y wr kd?

Did you get beat up in school a lot when you were a kid?

Something tells me Kansas boy here needs to be on the disemvowelling list.

Well, that's progress of a sort.

Now if you can just deconsonate the trolls as well, you'd be on to something.

There's still one in the middle of the thread by 'Kansas Citizen for REAL Science' that needs its vowels ripped out.

Since they're all the same person does this mean 'Emanuel Goldstein' gets the treatment now, too? Cool!

This guy is definitely a 30 year old in his parent's apartment, pissed that his religion won't let him look up the porn he so desperately desires. It would be funny if he wasn't trolling respectable blogs. Dude, you should go troll at some fundie's blog, since they're the asshats who are repressing your palm love.

I wouldn't be calling anyone a wimp if you cry to the ISPs at the sight of a gun.

From the article:

"Of course you can pray for someone from a distance but in this case it would not have any effect.

Funny, I have a book that says,

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

(Matt. 19:26, repeated in Mark 10:27). But maybe Amorth hasn't read it.

The Vatican has a guy who actually believes in magic and demons. Pardon me while my head go all 'splodey.

Exactly. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, but I wouldn't trust one anyhow.

But doesn't that mean that a clock that only loses a second per day is only right every 118 years?

I wouldn't be calling anyone a wimp if you cry to the ISPs at the sight of a gun.

Not the sight of a gun, but the mention of a metaphorical gun on a website. I have no idea how one would literally shoot somebody on a website...

PZ Myers:

This clown has posted as Follower of Cocky Bastare, Emanuel Goldstein, Kansas Citizens for REAL Science, Cocky Bastard, Blair, Goldstein, Goldsteins ally, Student of History, Jim, Agent of Goldstein, and several other aliases. He is a known troll who has been banned at KCFS and PT.

You have permission to take him out on sight.

He's on my list as deserving of disemvoweling.

PZ, just what does it take for you to pull out IP blocking? I mean, if the guy starts issuing credible threats, or shooting out people's real-world windows, you can just call the police/FBI. But if what you're describing doesn't warrant a total ban, what would?

Whoops, I muffed the blockquote. The first two lines after the give quote, also belong to PZ. My response starts with his initials.

Actually not only the Vatican has an official chief exorcist as a new exorcism ritual was published some years ago.

And in the words of Cardinal Jorge Medina Estevez, then Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, we atheists are all possessed by the devil as we all show «a vehement aversion to God, Our Lady, the saints, the cross and sacred images», a sure sign of demoniac possession :-)

Besides «The existence of the devil isn't an opinion, something to take or leave as you wish, belief in Satan is a tenet of Catholic faith.»

so the Vatican has been sponsoring several exorcism courses in the Athenaeum Pontificium Regina Apostolorum, a private so called University, supported by Regnum Christi and Legion of christ, two orders founded by the pedophile mexican priest Maciel Degollado, recently pardoned by B16.

Both JPII and B16 encouraged exorcists. B16 last September, at the end of the eighth meeting of Italian exorcists held in Collevalenza, told them «to continue in their important ministry at the service of the Church»; Gabriele Amorth told La Stampa, an Italian newspaper, that JPII himself has carried out three exorcisms. Amorth said: "He carried out these exorcisms because he wanted to give a powerful example. He wanted to give the message that we must once again start exorcising those who are possessed by demons...»

WOW. We have complete whackjobs in the White House. Not that we didn't already know that.

Rove exorcises ex-Hillary office, book says
BY GLENN THRUSH
Newsday Staff Correspondent

September 7, 2006

WASHINGTON -- Karl Rove says he's not The Exorcist.

Rove, the Bush political shaman Democrats love to demonize, enlisted a trio of clergymen to exorcize Hillary Rodham Clinton's left-wing spirit when he moved into her West Wing office in 2001, according to an unflattering new biography.

"I talked to Karl; he said it's not true and, beyond that, he will have no comment," White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said.

Clinton smiled and shook her head in disbelief yesterday when asked about the tale, which appears in "The Architect: Karl Rove and the Master Plan for Absolute Power," by James Moore and Wayne Slater.

"I'm speechless," she finally said, heading toward a Senate elevator.

Later, Clinton spokesman Philippe Reines quipped, "If the story is true ... they sure did exorcize any lingering competence right out of the building."

Deal Hudson, a former Fordham University professor Rove enlisted to woo Catholic voters, told the authors that he witnessed the exorcism, which he described as "an actual liturgical ceremony."

He did not return a message seeking comment.

The Pope himself would risk nothing in backing ID

Bullshit. At least 99 % of Europe's catholics would have simply quit. You can't really have believed the Pope would have risked that.