Grounded in unreality

Does this mean I'm about to finally get real grown-up answers to my longtanding questions of "What is a 'free radical?'" and "How do 'free radicals' harm the body?" -- questions I've repeated in vain so frequently for so long that I've begun mentally adding "the everloving fuck" between the first and second words of each?

Oh, and as for the flow of electrons improving human health...this guy is a fool. All this trouble he's going to, when he could easily get all the health benefits he could want by blow-drying his hair in the shower. :P

That's intensely stupid.
How does this get past anyone's BS detector?
I wonder if I donate $1000 to Benny Hill's Gulf Stream I
can get a free box of electrons to stand in?
What if I just put my tongue on the negative terminal of
a 9V battery?

Azkyroth, while their effects may be exaggerated, free radicals are not woo. No less than the National Cancer Institute says they may be bad for you.

I bet Clint Ober is one of those jackasses who espouses the health benefits of drinking "oxygenated" water aka H2O2.

Man, all those barefoot people, thousands of years ago, living into their 120's. That and the ringworm. Gotta love that ringworm.
It's a wonder we were able to execute anyone in the electric chair, what with all of those electrons "healthing people up".

So the grounded stick figure gets a puppy and the insulated one doesn't?

Dude, I'm sold. I want a puppy!

Is that a tree or a mushroom cloud?

Azkyroth: try this. Short answer: they react with stuff, and turn it into stuff it's not meant to be.

Also: I always go barefoot, and I certainly seem a lot happier than all those grumpy old Mr. Shoeses you see out on the street.

I hope Benny Hill's Gulf Stream plays "Yakety Sax." Both during takeoff AND landing!

(afterthought: you meant Benny Hinn).

Used to, people really did need to be up against the bare earth in order to restore their energy everyday.

Then they invented beds. And coffee.

And that's only about 7.5 times what a typical 3' x 5' conductive floor mat (the thick, springy anti-fatigue kind) used in industry for ESD control will cost you.

I'm reminded of the unsung genius who first realized that he could buy alligator clips in bulk for maybe a nickel apiece, stick some feathers or beads on them and resell them for several bucks as roachclips.

Free radicals aren't woo. It's a standard chemical term that refers to an atom or molecule with an unpaired electron and no charge. Those upaired electrons are really reactive, and they tend to react in chain reactions, so a few go a very long way. That's why they can harm the body. There are several processes in nature that are involve free radicals - combustion is one. One of the more notorious reactions is the chloro/flourocarbon reaction in the upper atmosphere that destroys the ozone. I think any decent freshman chemistry book should have information about free radicals.

afterthougt, that's Benny Hinn. He's the
egregious conman with the religious accent.
Don't forget the rest of the mantra, "Barefoot and pregnant." Let your tootsies come into contact with Mother Earth and guess what? Ringworm will be the least of your worries.

It ain't nice to fool Mother Nature.

shards of glass in the foot hurt too, just more in a "bleeding profusely and hopping about" way.

agum,

Yes, I did, but I knew what I was typing. I just think calling him Benny Hill is more fun. I just see Benny chasing that naked(?) woman during the ending credits and it makes me smile at the contrast to the money-grubbing nutjob and his fleeced followers.

For some reason, this reminded me of Chelsea Quinn Yarbro's vampires, who wear shoes lined with their native earth so they can travel more easily.

Of course, she's gone off the deep end, too.

Of course you don't need a $350 pad to supply free electrons. Just plug yourself into the wall. Or play golf in a thunderstorm. Or walk on a rug while petting the cat with nylon socks on - but don't touch the doorknob, or you'll lose all those electrons.

Nick Tarleton:

Yeah, the problem is, no matter how much current I apply, I can't get any of their proponents to give me much detail beyond "They're bad for you."

Kadin:

Thanks. I'll take a look.

Hey, cells produce free radicals all the time as byproducts of essential chemical reactions, and also by intent: lysosomes and peroxisomes, for instance, are little hotbeds of free radical chemistry.

The idea that touching the earth and letting mysterious electrons rise up and enter you will interfere with that chemistry is what's absurd.

Oh, and for $350, those electrons don't sound very free to me. Sound pretty damn expensive, as a matter of fact.

What Dee? You want 1.60217646 × 10-19 coulombs each
for free?

Dee:

This is the sort of thing I meant when I referred to a "real grown-up answer." Thank you.

That must be why hippies live so long.

My favorite line: "Second, we invite you to think back to how well you feel when you are in your garden with your hands in the dirt or when you are on the beach with your bare feet contacting the earth. Trust your feelings."

Because those feelings can be attributed to nothing else...like, oh, I don't know, time off?

My personal favorite part of the site is its "Terms of Use." The following excerpts from the Terms of Use are expressly forbidden by the Terms of Use.

"By viewing the contents of this website you agree to this condition of viewing and you acknowledge that any unauthorized use is unlawful and may subject you to civil or criminal penalties."

"Unless expressly authorized by website, no one may hyperlink this site, or portions thereof, (including, but not limited to, logotypes, trademarks, branding or copyrighted material) to theirs for any reason. Further, you are not allowed to reference the url (website address) of this website in any commercial or non-commercial media without express permission, nor are you allowed to 'frame' the site."

"Viewer, visitor, member, subscriber or customer agrees that the applicable law to be applied shall, in all cases, be that of the state of Utah."

And of course the penalty for any breach of the Terms of Use is civil/criminal liability and "liquidated damages in the amount of U.S.$100,000."

Wow. Just wow.

Azkyroth, a free radical is a molecule or ion with one or more unpaired electrons. We're surrounded by them, as for example, ordinary oxygen, O2, is one of 'em. Or alternately, a free radical is a political radical who isn't married.

I knew a guy who ate basically only junk-food claiming that the preservatives would neutralize all of his free-radicals.
He was an odd bird, but women seemed to like him. Not sure if it had anything to do with free-radicals.

There are several processes in nature that are involve free radicals - combustion is one.

Ribonucleotide reductase, the enzyme that converts ribonucleotides to deoxyribonucleotides, contains a stable free radical. Wouldn't want to lose that one. :-)

I wonder if those terms of use are enforceable.

If they prove to be, I'm going to kill whoever it was at T-Shirt Hell (probably not work-safe) who decided to stop carrying their "tearing this paper signifies your consent to perform oral sex on the giver" wrapping paper...

Have you heard of the wonderful health benefits of drinking hexagonal water?

I wish I was joking.

The brochure looked very slick, as I recall; no weird color schemes or childish cartoons. Lots of testimonials, too. "Oh, yes, drinking hexagonal water from this purifier made me feel so good". And so on, and on.

Looking at the web page, I see they have a cross at the bottom of the page. "A Worldwide Ministry Through Pure Water". Are you convinced of its wonderfulness yet? No? Why do you hate pure water and Jesus?

Wait a minute. I thought free radicals were a political splinter group. We just can't have 'em running around loose - they're a bunch of pinko commies!

... earth's antioxidizing flow of free electrons ...

Dammit, I've been paying for my electrons all this time, and you tell me that the Earth is giving them away for free? Sheesh.

You mean I'm a criminal now for linking to that page? Uh-oh.

Be careful though. A stiff enough charge of those free electrons, and you'll end up with more free radicals than you can shake a stick at.

"Mr. Paws" there reminds me of something...
I do volunteer work at a wolf sanctuary, and I can say with confidence that none of our wolves wear shoes or sleep in beds. Does that prevent them from developing arthritis, diabetes, bone cancer, leukemia and a raft of other diseases? Well, no (though I hasten to clarify that not every wolf gets all, or even any, of these diseases; it's just that they have occurred in our wolves). And it's not that we're mishandling them. It's just that wolves in captivity get to be way older than they do in the wild. In the wild, it's almost unheard of for a wolf to reach the age of ten; in captivity, it's almost standard.

Who's blog is this? Orac does squid:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/12/your_friday_dose_of_woo_demon…

So PZ does woo. No fighting over the wacko stuff guys.
What I want to know is do all those free electrons zap the demonic squids on the way through.

Woo, wooooo!!!

The earth's infinite supply of free electrons will neutralize free radicals in your body and will thus help to stave off disease and aging. YOUR BODY WAS DESIGNED TO BE IN CONTACT WITH THE EARTH FOR MANY HOURS PER DAY.

spoken like someone who buries himself alive every day for an hour, at least.

I could have told him right off that oxygen deprivation causes brain damage.

...and charged him only 29.95 for that bit of information.

heck, I might have even thrown in a free set of ginsu steak knives, in the hopes he would put them to good use in giving himself a frontal lobotomy.

Act now, for an extra $200 you can get the mat neutrino proofed! But wait, there's more-a neutrino-proof umbrella too!

YOUR BODY WAS DESIGNED TO BE IN CONTACT WITH THE EARTH FOR MANY HOURS PER DAY.

Wait, so earth is the human body's natural element now? I've been getting conflicting reports. There's only one way to settle this: have Clint Ober, Elaine Morgan, that guy in the fireworks suit and a token Breatharian in a four-way fight. With knives.

I'd think a Van de Graaff generator would be a lot quicker way of collecting some of those healthy electrons.

Now look. You can save a bunch of bucks here. Do this:

Gitcha a 5 gallon pail made of metal. Gitcha a fishin' pole and some bait. Gitcher ass on down to the crik. Take off your shoes. Upend bucket at water's edge. Sit down. Put your bare feet in the water, in full contact with the crikbed. Put bait on hook. Put hook in water. Spend the better part of the day doing this. When yer ready, git up. Put fish (if any) in pail. Put shoes on. Go home. Feel better? Heh, thought so.
Total cost: nothin' if you got the pail, the pole and the bait. If you have to buy all that stuff $25 or so will git 'er done. Total savings, at least $325! If you got fish, you save the cost of grub to boot. Total satisfaction, priceless.
Grounding pad my ass. Sheesh.

Remember, "Time spent fishing is not deducted from your life."

We forget the lesson of the demise of Antaeus at our peril!

Antaeus

What really gets me about guys like Clint Ober is that even though he's claiming to have founded a whole new branch of science, he's also claiming to have patented it! I assume this means that no one else is allowed to do research into this fascinating area, even though it has the potential to improve the lives of billions?

This is typical of the charlatan, and is why I nearly go off the deep end when my own mother refuses to discount (for example) the possibility that John Edward talks to dead people, while at the same time not registering what a totally selfish asshole this makes him if in fact he can.

Things that mediums could talk to dead people about:
- finding missing children
- solving murders
- what happens in the afterlife (have you met Jesus?)
- cooperating in controlled scientific experiments to advance human knowledge into a whole new area.

Things that mediums actually talk to dead people about:
- a fond memory that happened ages ago
- nicknames in college
- favourite colors and other utterly pointless trivia

Whoops, I seem to have drifted a little-- sorry I just despise John Edward with a passion because vulnerable idiots feel compelled to defend him as a wonderful man.

One free radical that's essential for us: nitric oxide (NO*). It's an incredible signaling molecule regulating everything from vasodilation (blood vessel dilation - it's the mechanism of action for both blood pressure drugs and viagra), to controlling inflammation, killing invaders, and neural signalling. Don't wanna get rid of that little helper with those magical electrons from the ground!

That's the other small nugget of reality in the forest of woo - an electron would indeed convert a free radical to a more inert species with paired electrons, but how that would happen through your bare feet is utterly incomprehensible.

Works even better if you lash a 20-ft lightning rod to your head.

For folks who like this stuff, Ben Goldacre and James Randi unearth an unending stream of hokum and flimflam.

http://www.badscience.net/
http://www.randi.org/

Hot Shit! This will help me pay my tuition bills next semester. Step right up folks, step right up. For only $40 a head, you too can gain all of the healthful benefits of free electrons! Now, just sign here, here, aaaand here. Good. Now just put this butter knife into that wall socket.

They think they're radical. But they're not so radical. In fact, they're just fanatical.

But people, didn't you read the site? There's no downside! Even if your $349.95 earthing pad doesn't help you, there's absolutely no loss to you! Thus it's logical!

..oh, wait. There's a blatant flaw there, isn't there?

They think they're radical. But they're not so radical. In fact, they're just fanatical.

I wonder how many people get that reference.

Best. Live band. Ever.

I guess all those people in Africa suffering from HIV, TB, hunger, etc, just aren't walking on the right sort of ground. Send them this earthing pad quick!

But can this interact with my copper bracelet or the magnets in my shoes? I wouldn't want to overdose or anything...

And then there's the dinner party acquaintance of mine who got everyone's attention by describing how she had paid $3000 for a blanket containing rare-earth magnets. She got a more restful sleep, she said. I forget how much she paid for another such for her dog.

Woo. Very profitable woo.

Priests have a better scam. You have to die to prove they didn't deliver the product. No one has ever come back to complain, after all.

I'm relieved he's patented this wonderful new science. I wouldn't want this kind of dangerous technology falling into the wrong hands. I wonder where I can read the patent number? And while I'm on the subject - are physics, chemistry and biology real sciences if they're not patented?

This whole business of free radicals sounds like some pinko plot to destabilize the current world radical market. I urge all patriotic Americans to buy only home-grown radicals. They are grown on battery farms under properly controlled conditions and you will be charged a fair price for them. Circuit City have some good deals, I believe. But not Walmart. The radicals there are all revolting Chinese imports and you should resist the impulse to buy them. In fact, if you look closely at the label, you'll see they're actually called 'ladicals'.

To further this policy a new reality TV show is planned. Young tennis players who also aspire to be pop singers will compete against each other for the chance to start a professional career. Working title is The Steffi Van Der Graaf Generation. Further details can be found in the show's brochure called An Ode To An Electron.

"Whoops, I seem to have drifted a little-- sorry I just despise John Edward with a passion because vulnerable idiots feel compelled to defend him as a wonderful man."

You should like this Guardian column then.

Ithika: Sheesh, if only you'd do a little background research you could easily find the patent number: 6,683,779. There's a link right there on the web site.

I guess this is the final, positive (er, accidental pun) proof that this is not snake oil, since the US Patent Office wouldn't have approved of something fake, now would they?

If being in contact with the ground was so good why don't we see more corpses walking?

TS: Can it be that we finally have a scientific explanation for the resurrection of Jesus? :P

And while I'm at it, this certainly suggests an interesting cure for erectile dysfunction. I'm having some difficulty getting over the probable worsening of yeast infections, though...

Barefeet! I can't wait till all Americans have calloused, chimp-like feet.

Well duh, just get yourself some ESD heelstraps.
http://www.high-techconversions.com/productsESD.htm

Keeps you grounded even with shoes on.

Long long ago, I spent several years studying free radicals by electron paramagnetic resonance, and boy, those little beggars were hard to find. Now I realize my mistake: The spectrometer was grounded and I should have suspended it including the three ton electromagnet from the lab ceiling with nylon cords! We live and learn!

Damn it, PZ, this could have made an excellent Your Friday Dose of Woo....

Oh, well, there's lots more woo out there that I haven't dealt with yet. Plenty for everyone, unfortunately.

Free radicals ARE dangerous - just ask Fox News, any Bush Administration offical, or your average Neocon. What we need are more *imprisoned* radicals!

Well, everyone's already done a pretty good job on this one, but there's a key blatant stupidity that I don't think has been clearly addressed: since when is a ground potential a source of electrons? The whole freakin' point of earthing is to provide a more-or-less infinite electron sink.

Unless I've gotten badly confused by conventional current... again. ;)

From the site:

The U.S. Postal Bicycling team has been having its team members use an earthing bed pad such as the one shown here to connect to the earth during the time allotted for sleeping, both during the periods of training and during races.

No wonder postal rates keep going up. The USPS is falling for this bullshi'ite -- it's like the CIA's psychic experiments all over again.

What is it with the US Fed and its endemic inability, from the executive down, to learn from history?

Dunc wrote, "Unless I've gotten badly confused by conventional current... again. ;)"

Well....

It turns out that electrons flow from the negative potential to the positive potential. So if the potential of your feet is more positive than the earth it is touching, electrons will flow onto your feet. Conversely, if your feet are more negatively charged than ground, electons will flow from your feet.

Ground is just a large, convenient, and relatively stable source or sink. Within a local area of course. Put a meter into the earth with the probes 50 meters apart and you might see a minor voltage difference. From my work on automobiles, I've seen as much as a 1.5 volt difference in ground from one end of the vehicle to the other.

What flows from positive to negative are what we call 'holes'. The math of hole-flow is similar, but not quite identical, to electron flow mainly due to the difference in relativistic effects in the flow of a lack of a particle. (I think contemplating hole-flow is why many electrical engineers are bald.)

Mind, in the case of barefoot energy flow, it may be far more appropriate to think about the flow of holes. Apparently his brains are escaping through them.

Stupid? Actually, it's quite an intelligently offered product.

There are many millions in the world who "choose" of their own free will to accept dubious claims that are ungrounded in reality - because they "feel good".

They want to spend their money on silly things. They derive benefits from that purchase that are greater then the money they spend - otherwise they would not choose to spend it. Why should any enterprising web-savvy entrepreneur deprive them of that right?

I can't imagine why any of the many bright scientific types here expect that the website owner actually believes that standing on his $350 mat will make anyone healthier or live longer than otherwise.

From the quality of the sales materials and copy - I'd see this person is quite intelligent - and I'd also predict that his bank account is fatter than mine.

I for one object to the unsubstantiated medical claims that prey on people in real pain looking for miracles. Like paying a Bishop of old to "cure" your leprous daughter by "tithing".

Unfortunately for me, the same morality that led me away from christendom also makes me squick at stealing money from the stupid.

Logic Damn My Compassionate Morality!

It's basically Bokonism without the disclaimer.

"All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies."

I wonder if Vonnegut is getting royalties from these folks.

Considering we've had 4 weeks of below 0c temperatures, including 10 consecutive days where it never rose above -22c, I believe the tradeoff between wearing heavy insulated boots far outweighs the benefits of going barefoot in 2 feet of snow.

Between this and "Layers of Light" (http://www.2lolii.com/index.asp), how can anyone go wrong?

Fusion Formulas™are products that when combined M-Power the Physical Body and Consciousness to heightened levels of Wellness. Fusion Formulas™ combine the Four Forces of Nature, as described by Classical Physics, with that of Quantum Physics to include Consciousness, with the intent of harnessing energy to maintain our " Primary Energy Field " which is in sympathetic resonance with Truth and Peace within. The products are formulated to work from the inside- out and outside-in of the body.

James Bond, in Thunderball, gets sent to a vegetarian/Kellogg Sanotarium-style spa. In the movie, he tells Moneypenny--"I'm to destroy all free radicals." "Isn't that going too far?"

In the novel,Bond and maybe all the double-oughts (and M, too) go on the vegetarian, alcohol-free, exercise-intensive program. They're healthy as they can get, and absolutely miserable until they go back to heavy drinking and smoking and flesh-eating.

Then everything's jake again.

You all make my day! luv it.

free radicals x stupid people + $350 earthing pad = free-market capitalism

There are many millions in the world who "choose" of their own free will to accept dubious claims that are ungrounded in reality - because they "feel good".

They want to spend their money on silly things. They derive benefits from that purchase that are greater then the money they spend - otherwise they would not choose to spend it. Why should any enterprising web-savvy entrepreneur deprive them of that right?

For many of the same reasons I don't go around "donating" handguns to small children, I suppose.

Do you really not see an ethical problem with defrauding people of money?

Even if this wasn't total woo, couldn't you get the same "benefits" for free by standing around in your yard (or a box of potting soil)? It's a scam^2!

It's unbelievable. I sure couldn't believe it.

If you doubt this is possible, how is it there are PYGMIES + DWARFS?!

(Sorry. Had to be said.)

The utter studidity of the the objections to this concept is appallingly short-sighted, yet not surprising. While the product may be total crap, the concept is extremely valid. First, we are absolutely electrical beings. Modern medicine tries to deny it, while hypocritically using that same electrical field to maintain an ill-conceived medical paradigm (How do you think EKGs, EMGs, PET scans, CAT scans, MRIs, etc, etc work? And what about synaptic junctions between afferent and efferent neurons - a major reason you are capable of formulating your objections in the first place?). For those of you who don't know any better, electricity is all about electrons. We evolved, you got it, sleeping on the ground. And it's all about evolution - don't draw conclusions based on the miniscule time frame of your existence. None of us alive have been here any longer than the time period in which we've been bastardizing our physiology with poorly conveived technological advances. I'm a technology buff, but don't bury my head in the sand concerning its effects. Just like you can't eat large amounts of processed sugar (a result of modern food technology), as we know from the epidemic proportions of type 2 diabites and obesity, you can't disconnect yourself from the electrical field you evolved in and replace it with a totally different field (the world of 60 HZ AC instead of the 8 HZ Earth frequency). Just as the pancreas coudn't adapt in a timely manner to a rapid change in man's sugar intake, the body couldn't and can't adapt to a rapid change in electrical field without dire consequences (and no, a small daily exposure to the right frequency coupled with 90% exposure to the wrong frequency doesn't cut it. You can't run your gasoline engine on diesel 90% of the time and not expect catostropic results). In the words Joseph Campbell, the acclaimed author of 'The Power of Myth', "There is nothing more disturbing than reaching the top of the ladder, only to find that it is leaning against the wrong wall". Western medicine is in just that situation, but is slowly coming out of it as consumers demand a more humanistic approach.

As far as the web site, it's obviously an amatuer job (I'm a software designer), but it pegs the mentality of the common American Joe to the tee. Stupid and brainwashed. The web site author knew, like giant Wall Street advertising firms, that facts don't sell. Simplistic emotional appeal sells (Wow! I'd be a real badass in that car!). After all, the US populace is so stupid that it buys lung cancer producing cigarettes and cirhosis producing liquor b/c a beautiful woman with 36Ds hanging out is slowly killing herself with a guy who has bulging pecs.

BTW, if you are still grappling with what a free-radical is and how it affects you, you're in no way competent to even comment on this subject. Perform your due-diligence, study physiology/evolutionary biology/twentieth century technology vs economics/advertising psychology/the history of brainwashing and indoctrination of western medical providers based on political and economic decisions (not your health), and your ready to make an informed decision on the concept presented on the web site.

One more thing, inflammation is widely accepted in conventional medical circles today as being the major underlying component of a VAST majority of all chronic disease, and that free-radicals are the ultimate culprit. Controlling inflammation is the key. That is not new to this site by any stretch of the imagination.

Michael - Research RN, ICU RN, Medical software designer, former charge RN of several psych and addiction units