Too damn religious

In other important breaking news from New Zealand:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6385071.stm

Well. Talk about a concise summing-up.

I don`t think america is getting anywhere so long they do not understand that their problem is not religion but their lack of modern education as displayed by billions of other people around the world.

We all try to make sense of our world the best way we can, and with mathematical and linguistic deficiencies the resulting cause will be a deficiency in abstract and rational thinking, thus be indeed limited to fantasy stories and similar prose.

I think the future of the USA is more than doubtful, simply because in human history never has a group had the chance to devolve and prevail but also be so in conflict with itself. Everyone has a different opinion, different fantasies. There are people in the senate running around claiming 911 conspiracies of the world power elite to be fact - lacking all education in human psychology and neurology which our teenagers receive in their 7th class and onwards.

They even think (people in the senate!!!) that Europe is on its way to communism, which i can only laugh at - besides the fact that because we are culturally evolving it only makes sense to speak of an political or economical system in relation to a given time and place in history.

You americans have no educational restriction to who can be put into power in virtually any position - again that is mindblowing and explains why politics over the atlantic has become a financial struggle!

Just compare an 18 year old US teen with its "uhmmm...kinda...its like....its like...its like... sorta...." stuttering to an 18 year old japanese, south korean, EU citizen, chinese heck even many "former" developing nations catching up rapidly to the west and exceeding the US by far in terms of education.

The scientific community in the US is as top notch as anywhere else even in johannisberg or india, because to partake you have to be equal. But the scientific community does not represent any particular nation, in fact is global and in fact there is no dialog going on between the scientific community and the populace, an their language could not be further apart.

But above all Americans usually cannot even put themselves in perspective of a mutual effort of 6.5 billion people on this planet all being part of the same species, all having the same evolutionary history encoded within them, all having individual minds and individual personalities and realities.

That perspective would reveal Christianity or Islam or Buddhism for what they really are: mere blips on the radar of human history and you do not even have to know anything about evolution - the sheer visualization of 6.5 billion people in the 21st century buzzing and whizzing around 24/7 on this globe is certainly gonna leave you puzzled for a while.

It's a fine letter, but I take exception to the priest's opinion on the Israeli/Palestinian problem.

Well, come on, Narnia is in NZ, and it's a pretty religious region...near a city called 'Christchurch'...Seriously though, the US is unique for being the most Christian nation on Earth - other nations don't come close to its religiosity.

Sorry for the slight OT post but: More news from New Zealand:

New Zealand fishermen have caught what is expected to be a world-record-breaking colossal squid (450kg/990lb).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6385071.stm

Far Away: Sorry, Maybe I should read the other posts before posting...

Brian Tamaki, who is mentioned in the letter, is the leader of Destiny Church, a frightening fundamentalist movement spreading through NZ. I would call them, I think quite rightfully, a fascist movement. Their goal is, openly, to take control of NZ's "government gone evil" within the next five years and impose a restrictive theocratic regime.

I spent some time in NZ a couple years ago and had a conversation with a nice guy who had belonged to some nondenominational liberal Christian group. Destiny Church infiltrated his group and soon took over, splintering his church and sending over half of the congregation away when the tone of the sermons changed to rabidly anti-homosexual, anti-science, anti-government, far right gobbledygook. Apparently, that's been a fairly commonplace thing in NZ for the past several years.

Scary.

As for the squid news... 990 pounds? That's a lot of calamari!

It's a fine letter, but I take exception to the priest's opinion on the Israeli/Palestinian problem.

Why? I thought it was on the money. And endorsing Carter's and Clinton's approaches is a pretty moderate position, actually. In Israel itself the spectrum of openly debated public opinion actually extends considerably to the left of anything either of those gentlemen has ever said, surprising as that mught be to people in the US who are used to hearing bogus accusations of antisemitism hurled at anyone who so much as deviates from the Likud party line.

"There are people in the senate ... lacking all education in human psychology and neurology which our teenagers receive in their 7th class and onwards."

While America definitely has its problems, and we certainly have some stupid people in Congress, I would caution against blanket over-generalizations of European superiority.

On the topic of elected legislators, last month an alliance of fascist (real fascists, not just GOP fundies) parties formed within the European parliament.

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2157360.ece

These parties have seen their electoral performance rise in several countries in Europe in recent years, which is how they were able to form this bloc.

"Just compare an 18 year old US teen ... to an 18 year old japanese, south korean, EU citizen"

Europe's education system may be superior, but it also produces adults who tend to be more opposed to animal research, vaccination, and water fluoridation, which is often reflected in government policy.

British anti-animal research sentiment
http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/news/story/0,,2011500,00.html

German measles parties
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,419258,00.html

European water fluoridation policies
http://fluoridealert.org/govt-statements.htm

And why do highly educated and secular Europeans tolerate such restrictive abortion policies? (Note: I am pro-choice.)
http://baltimorechronicle.com/abortion_policies_europe.html

Wikipedia: Abortion law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_law

What's the problem with being opposed to water fluoridation?

I don`t think america is getting anywhere so long they do not understand that their problem is not religion but their lack of modern education as displayed by billions of other people around the world.

I'm not convinced these are two different problems. For all the rhetoric, I think the U.S. education system would be doing a pretty good job if it weren't for [a] religious conservatives making a concerted effort to drive "evil thoughts" (i.e., godless modernity, particularly in matters scientific and sexual) out of the public schools and [b] the closely related problem of political conservatives trying to starve the public schools to death.

This is just my opinion -- one day, maybe when I retire, I'll have a chance to do real research on this question -- but I think most of our vaunted problems with education are actually reflections of larger societal problems: poverty, class inequality, crime, drugs, urban decay.... In economically and culturally healthy communities (don't be cynical; there are some!), public schools actually do a very good job of preparing young people to be competent citizens.

As for minimum educational requirements for public office, do the European democracies really have any such rules? In the U.S., such a law could only pass constitutional muster once we've achieved sufficient social equality that an educational test would not result in de facto racial or gender bias (remember literacy tests for voters?). While that would be a Very Good Thing in itself, I still am not sure I'd support an educational test: Just as I favor universal access to the ballot box, I favor universal access to the ballot. I think....

Caledonian:

See the second diagram.
http://tinyurl.com/39c9u9

The second diagram doesn't mention it. I don't think the first one does either.

But, since the question wasn't responded to, I'll try it again: what's the problem with being opposed to water fluoridation?

(remember literacy tests for voters?)

Um, no. "Literacy test" was a euphemism. They weren't asked of white people, and black people somehow never passed, because they weren't actual literacy tests.

They'd never pass Constitutional muster regardless of how socially developed we are.

Caledonian:

In the second diagram "fluoridated water" appears is light blue letters.

I admit that in terms of public health policy, opposition to water fluoridation is not in the same league as opposition to animal research or vaccination.

Traditionally, opposition to water fluoridation in the United States is associated with the Birchers and other conspiracy theorists and, more recently, hardcore eco-activists. Is there controversy about fluoridation's benefits and potential risks? Sure. In the United States, does opposition to water fluoridation have a "tinfoil hat" aura? Yes.

Ah, so it does. Thank you, Colugo.

But regarding the "tinfoil hat aura": I don't care what connotations the subject has, I care what the arguments on the matter are. Positions are not invalidated by the idiocy of people who support them.

Caledonian:

I agree with you on the distinction between the validity of a position and its proponents. (Dr. Strangelove's "precious bodily fluids" line had a role in the "anti-fluoridation as right wing kook signifier" meme.) In the case of fluoridation, my consideration of the evidence leads me to conclude that such water treatment is both safe and beneficial.

I have to side with Caledonian on this one. I'd argue that although "flouridation as a government conspiracy" has tinfoil hat written all over it, reasonable objections to the flouridation of the public water supply do exist. (I freely admit to being inexpert on the subject, so please correct me if I'm wrong.)

I last lived in NZ about a year and a half ago; the Destiny Church was already popular then. Most of the followers seemed to be from a large, disenfranchised, mostly Maori, minority.

A lot of the popularity of the church was due to growing opposition to the Labour government's alleged "social engineering", mainly the civil unions (ie. gay marriage) legislation.

I suspect the controversial Foreshore and Seabed act, which was strongly opposed by many Maori (who saw it as breaching their customary rights over marine resources), also helped recruitment.

But really, Brian Tamaki is just your garden variety evangelical, a la Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, etc, although not quite as wealthy. Yet.

(remember literacy tests for voters?)

Um, no. "Literacy test" was a euphemism. They weren't asked of white people, and black people somehow never passed, because they weren't actual literacy tests.

Um, yeah. My point was that literacy tests were discriminatory. The courts have fairly consistently held that implicitly discriminatory practices -- as an educational test would be if applied in the absence of equal educational opportunity -- are just as unacceptable as explicitly discriminatory practices such as the so-called literacy tests.

Caledonian, I agree that "opposition to water fluoridation" sends up red flags because of its association with kooks, not because of absence of rational arguments against it.

Setting aside the "communist plot" fringe opposition, I believe most opponents are concerned about possible health threats from long-term exposure to a known toxin. Since studies haven't shown these threats to be significant, those who maintain the objection may be viewed as irrational.

My wife doesn't like it because she believes in freedom of choice in all medical issues, and feels that fluoridating the water supply is tantamount to dosing a patient without their consent.

Well, come on, Narnia is in NZ, and it's a pretty religious region...near a city called 'Christchurch'...

Hey! I'm from Christchurch! What are you insinuating about my city? All that religious colony stuff was years ago (despite the name, I wasn't even sure it was a specifically religious settlement until I heard it on the tourist information on a flight I was on).

Nah, seriously, it's comments like those in the letter to the NZ Herald that remind me why I love my country.

Christchurch was named after it's English equivalent in England.

English settlers tended to do that... Half of the East Coast of the US is the same.

Though also being from Christchurch NZ I can say that from my perspective Tamaki and his neo-nazi fundies are seen with some amusement.

We have a large alternative major religion population too with a lot of Hindi's (and other Indians), and an increasing population of African immigrants with Islamic faith.

Actually at the moment in NZ we are in the grip of a quasi-religious fervour - we bet the Ausssies 3-0 in the Chappell-Hadlee. We are suddenly a cricket nation, not xtian. (You North Americantypes probably don't get the significance of this).

I have to say I have a hard time conceiving of Tamaki as a threat to anyone but his own congregation. Its hard to explain to an American but religion has no voice in politics here (expect for some traditional Maori practices, but even then they have to argue they are cultural, not religious to get them accepted).

I can tell you the religion of perhaps 4 of our 121 MPs, candidates do not discuss their religion. In fact Don Brash (former leader of the opposition) lost his position in a great big scandal caused by him meeting with, and accpeting campaign assitance from, the Exclusive Bretheren. Even that much connection to organised religion can kill a career here.

Added to the fact that our right-wing parties tend to classical liberal rather than conservative ideas and the idea of the Destiny Party as a big problem is pretty unlikely. I prescribe a healthy dose of mockery.

That's a great letter. I'm going to file it away in my folder of great pieces of writing about this insane time we are going through.

I was in Wellington (NZ Capital) the day Destiny church marched through town all dressed in Black to protest the civil union bill.

They looked like Jack booted black shirts. That was probably a mistake on their part as they started to be taken as a serious threat to rational society at that point. Beforehand they might have just been regarded as a bit of a crazy right wing 'new style' (i.e. evangelical in NZ) church. Now they are completely locked out of the political process. Extreme religion is a political kiss of death in my little country as somebody mentioned above with regard to the exclusive bretheren. I'm so proud.

So Destiny have their own political party which polls absolutely nowhere near enough to get any electoral representation (9th most popular party- polled 0.62% of the vote 14210/2275629). NZ has 60 electorate seats and 60 seats based on party only votes. Destiny got 0.62 of the party votes and therefore no seats (need 5% to ensure seats under this system). The best they got in any electorate in NZ was 520 votes in the Maori only electorate of Tamaki Makaurau (2.6% of votes in that electorate). http://2005.electionresults.govt.nz/e9/html/e9_part4.html

I saw normal people calling them Nazis from the street side. Somebody's granny was even getting stuck into them. The few holocaust survivors still around were much less than impressed.

It isn't just Brian Tamaki and Destiny pushing for this madness - they've teamed up with a fairly mainstream Catholic group, who were last seen wringing their hands over the 'Bloody Mary' South Park episode. Those guys may be able to garner more support with the vaguely Christian segment of the general public.

I also saw the Destiny Church 'Nuremburg Rallies' at Parliament, and it disturbed the willies out of me. But judging from the $$$ 'Bishop'Tamaki is raking in, there's a horrible scandal just waiting to happen as soon as he's audited.

Ugh, I just followed the "Read your views" link at the top of that article. Depressing!

Just compare an 18 year old US teen with its "uhmmm...kinda...its like....its like...its like... sorta...." stuttering to an 18 year old japanese, south korean, EU citizen, chinese heck even many "former" developing nations catching up rapidly to the west and exceeding the US by far in terms of education.

Oh, man, tom, have you ever been outside the USA? Talking like that is... like... normal. It has nothing to do with education.

And I hate the term "cultural evolution". Evolution is something that happens to populations, not to individuals, and (as S. J. Gould kept pointing out) finding mutation and selection in culture is a bit difficult, too.

On fluoridation... over here the water is not fluoridated, but all toothpastes are. To get harmless black stains on your teeth you need to ingest totally ludicrous amounts of fluorides -- I've never seen the condition, I've only seen it on the side effects lists of preparates with extra fluorides (the stains "are removed by the daily brushing of the teeth"). The only thing that can AFAIK be said against fluoridating the drinking water is that it's a waste -- the water you bathe in and the water you flush your toilet with is drinking water after all.

The courts have fairly consistently held that implicitly discriminatory practices -- as an educational test would be if applied in the absence of equal educational opportunity -- are just as unacceptable as explicitly discriminatory practices such as the so-called literacy tests.

Which is utterly absurd. What's objectionable about literacy tests (aside from the idea that the state can deny anyone the right to vote by imposing an arbitrary test) is that they weren't applied to white people.

David Marjanović: Oh, man, tom, have you ever been outside the USA?

Interesting, I made the opposite assumption based on that little screed: that Tom had never been inside the USA, except possibly via satellite feed.

Census data shows NZ becoming increasingly godless - the percentage reporting "no religion" rose from 22% in 1991 to 35% in 2006.

http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2006/12/secular-country.html

That said, there's been a minority strand of very conservative christianity in this country for a long time. The opposition to civil unions reminded me of the opposition to homosexual law reform some 20 years ago. The Destiny people need to be opposed, but let's not credit them with more importance than they warrant.

Personally, I am only sure of the religious affiliations of two of our recent politicians. Both are atheists, Helen Clark (prime minister) and Don Brash (ex leader of the opposition). Further more we have at least one gay politician, Chris Carter, he's a cabinet minister and he recently married his partner in a civil union ceremony. Until recently we also had a transexual politician, Georgina Beyer. She recently left politics to become an actress. However, my feeling is that the most important even in NZ politics occured in 1999 with the disbanding of the McGillicuddy Serious Party. The only party I have ever really wanted to vote for, because it is the only one I'd actually like to go to. Since then every vote I've caste has been a protest vote.

By the way, Christchurch is really really flat. There are lots of nice bumpy places to live in NZ.

I miss the McGillicuddy Serious Party. They were great. Turning the Wellington motorway into a six lane goat track as part of their "Great Leap Backwards" Policy was my favourite. That and the leader putting himself in the stocks to have rotten vegetables thrown at him after failing to win the 99 election by polling less than 0.5% of the vote.

Interesting, I made the opposite assumption based on that little screed: that Tom had never been inside the USA, except possibly via satellite feed.

Me too, as he refers to "You Americans". On the other hand, I don't think he's British either, because of the ref to "EU citizens". I would have said South African because of the random reference to Johannesburg, except he can't spell it, which seems unlikely.

human psychology and neurology which our teenagers receive in their 7th class and onwards. Sounds good. Not the UK, for sure! Not so sure about the educational restrictions on who can be elecetd, though. tom, where are you from, please?

Just compare an 18 year old US teen with its "uhmmm...kinda...its like....its like...its like... sorta...." stuttering to an 18 year old japanese, south korean, EU citizen, chinese heck even many "former" developing nations catching up rapidly to the west and exceeding the US by far in terms of education.

Oh, man, tom, have you ever been outside the USA? Talking like that is... like... normal. It has nothing to do with education.

And I hate the term "cultural evolution". Evolution is something that happens to populations, not to individuals, and (as S. J. Gould kept pointing out) finding mutation and selection in culture is a bit difficult, too.

On fluoridation... over here the water is not fluoridated, but all toothpastes are. To get harmless black stains on your teeth you need to ingest totally ludicrous amounts of fluorides -- I've never seen the condition, I've only seen it on the side effects lists of preparates with extra fluorides (the stains "are removed by the daily brushing of the teeth"). The only thing that can AFAIK be said against fluoridating the drinking water is that it's a waste -- the water you bathe in and the water you flush your toilet with is drinking water after all.