Maybe. In his latest epistle from prison, Hovind has suddenly realized that the right-wing Christian position is unjust. It would be nice if he were undergoing a little actual consciousness-raising, but I expect it has more to do with his "me, me, me" attitude and the awful realization that he is the subject of his own old black-and-white beliefs.
At lunch last week, one of the inmates said, “If I could, I would bomb the Christian Coalition. They are the reason we are here.” I was shocked by his statement! I love the Christian Coalition, but I understand the man’s point. For years, Christians have pushed judges and legislators to be “tough on crime.” Most are thinking about violent crimes when pushing for this type legislation. However, only about three percent of those incarcerated in the United States are incarcerated for violent crimes. The unreasonable sentences people are given have come from judges who have never spent even one day locked up and who brag that they will give out sentences totaling “a million years” during their time on the bench.
So what should we do about non-violent crimes, like the ones Hovind committed?
There is also some distressing news.
DR. HOVIND - was just moved to a different federal facility.
He is now in solitary confinement for 23 1/2 hours per day, in a small cell. He sleeps (at this time) on the concrete floor. A guard has provided him with part of a "Good News for Modern Man" Bible. He has nothing else, as far as we know. There are conflicting reports from the new facility on whether or not he can receive visitors. He has had a very limited "approved visitors" list up until now. … Letters and postcards can be sent. No food; no hardbound books; no CDs or DVDs; do not put "Dr." in front of his name. All mail is opened and checked in front of guards.
Kent Hovind is a contemptible liar, a fraud who has made a life out of inculcating stupidity in his followers. I have no sympathy for the man or his cause, but this is excessive. There are other comments that this occurred because he violated some rules, and that it was for his own protection. I can guess what happened: he's an obnoxious, sanctimonious twerp who has been singing "I'm holier than thou" and has annoyed other inmates to the point where some want to shut him up.
Still, I don't think this is right. Locking people away from human contact like that is cruel, and what Hovind is is a con artist and tax cheat — hardly the kind of person who deserves that level of punishment (ah, but I'm a liberal softie…I don't think axe murderers should be tortured, either).
I don't know what to do about this. I'm sure, given the opportunity, Hovind is a career criminal who'd do the same thing all over again, and he certainly isn't showing remorse — he's rationalizing that he doesn't deserve to be punished at all for his non-violent crimes. But I also don't think locking him up in solitary, or leaving him at the mercy of tough guys who could beat him to a pulp, is appropriate either.
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The lockdown is actually standard operating procedure when an inmate is moved to a different facility. Typically they stay in lockdown for a couple of weeks until a bed frees up in the main facility. It sucks but that's what happens when you jail 3 million people.
It may not even be possible to confirm whether or not he is in solitary confinement and sleeping on the floor. I doubt he's in one of those supermax prisons for the most violent criminals. I also wouldn't put it past him to exaggerate his circumstances.
But if true. It's extreme.
"do not put "Dr." in front of his name"
Well I fail to see the problem with that one!
Please. If folks like this had their way, they'd stone the lot of us unbelievers to death. They've gladly awaited (and in glee, mind you!) the day where we'd all be sent to a pit of fire to burned and tortured for all time.
If Ken's warm enough, has a place to sleep, and gets food each day, I'm not having a real problem with it. That's probably better than a lot of folks end up after getting conned by these charlatans.
Given Hovind's propensity for prevarication, I'm extremely dubious about his claims of solitary confinement. If it's true, there are likely reasons for it which he's carefully kept hidden to maximize his martyrdom.
As for this:
At least he's not running low on toilet paper.
Putting someone in solitary 23 1/2 hours a day is inhumane.
On a lighter note, why do all the commenters on cseblogs feel the need to TELL Hovind that they are praying for him? Shouldn't the prayer be enough?
The criminal justice system in this country is a piece of shit. My theory is that everyone needs to spend a couple of months in the jail/prison system. This would effectively give the general population the motivation to create a system that does not simply toss human lives in the trash.
Given that people like Hovind are anxiously awaiting the Rapture and gleefully imagine the horrors the rest of us will endure for eternity, I find it difficult to dredge up a little sympathy for a criminal who is being treated like a criminal. As he said himself, it's his own fault that his community actively pushed for a system that treats criminals harshly. That they didn't make the distinction between violent and non-violent criminals is just another part of the problem. Even so, I doubt that Hovind now believes that the government should dedicate more resources to social programs that help rather than to prisons that punish. Maybe if he acted a little less Christian he'd become a little more human.
And then I followed the link:
"Having been here for nearly six months, I will forever be an advocate of closing most jails and prisons. What this type of punishment does to families and society is terrible. I believe that we as Christians are unwittingly funding and encouraging the very prisons that will house the Christians as the New World Order approaches!"
In other words, prisons are bad once you start filling them with Christians. Christians are meant to punish, not be punished.
Meh, all a matter of context. Having a week by myself, getting some piece and quiet to think and get some sleep, completely removed from the stress of everyday life... I dont care if I have to sleep on the floor, where can I sign up?
Im not feeling even a tiny bit sorry for him. Too many homeless and hungry people who have done nothing wrong for me to give a crap about Hovind.
I have no sympathy for the devil... whether he's called Hovind or Satan. I call Hovind in solitary "A Good Start", with plenty of room for Bin Laden, Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. I would pay good money to see them all shut into a 20' x 20' cell, and though I do not watch Reality TV, I would watch this show: "Cons For Christ (with Allah for Spice)"!
I agree with DaveX (comment #4). Please show no sympathy to these cretins - they don't deserve any.
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I'm content with where Hovind is.
I don't think we can equate him with just any person caught in a draconian penal system.
In my opinion, Hovind's real offense is something greater and more destructive that what he's imprisoned for. I think he is an aggressive predator on his fellow humans, and is completely lacking in conscience. With loud-mouthed hate, he has visibly enjoyed setting Americans against each other, on matters which should be easily resolvable.
He's a very definite threat to society. The sad fact is, there are plenty more like him walking around free, happily destroying public confidence in reason, science, education, and even freedom itself - and making money off it. Hovind's just one of the ones who got caught for something.
I don't know how you could legislate destroying public confidence into a crime, but the fact that it's not illegal does NOT make it benign behavior. Terrorists and mass murderers operate on the same predatory mentality - the blithe destruction of others for their own enrichment or amusement.
I agree that Hovind is somewhat the victim of a mean-spirited justice system that people like him, conservative Christians, helped create. But ... my compassion for him is very limited. If a man gets caught in a bear trap, it's a tragedy ... until you find out he's a bear trapper.
"Dr." Hovind earned this.
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PZ, where does this info come from? Honestly, it reads like an Onion-esque story titled 'Mixup at DOJ sends Creationist to Gitmo'. Just curious, because I don't trust Hovind more than I believe the penal system is broken.
PZ, where does this info come from? Honestly, it reads like an Onion-esque story titled 'Mixup at DOJ sends Creationist to Gitmo'. Just curious, because I don't trust Hovind more than I believe the penal system is broken.
Is it even true? Hovind lies constantly. It is like believing all the trash you read on yahoo. Some might be true, most is not.
If it is, he might have violated some prison rule or another. You have to remember, he is in the pokey for 58+ violations of federal laws. He has a history of antisocial behavior.
Don't they have work programs or educational opportunities in the pokey? These people will almost all be released back into society at some point. Maybe he could learn a real skill besides flim flamming his weak minded affinity group.
I know Hovind is a scammer, but the comments here are pretty mean-spirited. You don't have to think that he should be running wild and free to think that the prison system is inhumane and, at the least, shouldn't be applied to nonviolent offenders.
If the point is to prevent him from committing more crimes, put him on probation and order him not to bang for any more bucks. Confiscate his ministries and liquidate the assets. There's no reason to imprison him, as much as we might not like him. The state should have no interest in revenge.
I'm a bit confused about not writing "Dr." on his mail. Maybe his fellow inmates will think he's a physician and try to extort prescriptions from him?
I disagree. He should be behind bars. So should Rush Limbaugh.
Until sentencing laws are changed in this country the privileged and the "religious" should not get a pass.
They may strip all Dr's of their titles in prison. No special recognition allowed perhaps.
Especially for Doctorates in theology.
I'm not an expert in the "system," but something else to note: I'm pretty sure it's possible that (if the story's true) he's being deliberately picked on by one or more of the authorities. He might be in solitary just because they don't like him.
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I'll bet the moderator on this site has to wade through -- and delete -- fifty "ha-ha, serves the bastard right" comments for each prayerful one we see posted.
Excerpts from one of the comments (turn up volume, cue reverb on the mike):
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If they don't tell everyone about how much time they spend selflessly praying for others, how will everyone know what a pious, godly person they are?
It's about basic respect for human dignity. Deserving don't enter into it.
I agree that we need to know more before we can assess this. When the chain of information is this: reality --> Kent Hovind --> Kent Hovind fan --> blogs -- you have very little idea of what is actually going on.
Still, I think he was in a minimum security prison and has now been transfered to medium security, I wouldn't think this would happen randomly, but what do I know.
If they don't tell everyone about how much time they spend selflessly praying for others, how will everyone know what a pious, godly person they are?
It's about basic respect for human dignity. Deserving don't enter into it.
I'm not suggesting that Hovind is not a lier, cheat, and all around asswipe. However, to anyone here who thinks the system is fine has obviously never been in it or know anyone who has. Trust me, the judges and prosecutors could give two shits about the defendant or justice. This is impossible as long as justice and politics are walking hand in hand down the aisle of hypocrisy.
You know what I'm going to do? I'm writing a letter to the ACLU. Then he can take his 'American Communist Lawyer Association' riff and stow it in an orifice. Romans 12:20.
Pardon me. It was "Atheist Communist Lawyer Association".
Heh, well you always hear about these criminals who "find God" in prison. Might it work the other way? (I'm sure it can.) Maybe this is the first crack in Kevin's veneer. One can only hope.
Silent prayers present no opportunity for confirmation bias.
He isn't a real doctor. Under Florida law he cannot use the Dr. title.
As for food and the other stuff guess what a lot of prisons don't allow those things in because stuff often got smuggled in with the food, tapes, dvds can have different content then what they are supposed to be.
Most stores will not send stuff to prisons because of the rules they have about what is allowed and what is not.
You would be surprised at what people have tried to smuggle up their butt into prison or in their intenstines. Prison gives a lot of free time to see what can be turned into weapons to use against the other inmates as well as the guards.
Mythbusters showed how ingenious prisoners could be on several episodes. One they toured a prison and saw a lot of the confiscated weapons prisoners had made including a gun from plumbing parts. That's right the apporiate sized pipes as well as parts were turned into a gun to fire bullets.
"It's about basic respect for human dignity."
Respect should be a two-way street, Sophist...
That's what they invented exile for, I think. Don't hurt him, but send him off where he can't cause trouble. Unfortunately, the world is a much smaller place than it was when this kind of punishment was popular.
I don't get the part about sleeping on a concrete floor. Assuming this is true, it says volumes about the US prison system. If we can't build enough new cells fast enough to keep up with our draconian laws, can we at least furnish Hovind with a yoga mat?
Perhaps the most disturbing thing is how many of Hovind's supporters see him not as a felon serving his time, but as a martyr languishing in durance vile. Hovind, who is nothing if not imaginative, warns his flock like a modern-day Paul in Roman irons: "I believe that we as Christians are unwittingly funding and encouraging the very prisons that will house the Christians as the New World Order approaches!", and his supporters eat it up.
One wonders just how many nightstand Bibles have been hollowed out for handguns against the day the jackbooted agents of the New World Order come for the Faithful Remnant in the night...
Here's my two cents. It is highly unlikely that a tax cheat of Hovind's calibre would end up in a maximum security prison with violent offenders. It is very likely that he would end up doing some time by himself, regardless of where he lives. It is extremely likely that any hardship he experiences will be greatly exaggerated to the point of falsehood, because it serves the revisionist history that he used to justify swindling the government.
So, probably no tears need to be shed regarding his treatment. Ironically, I detect more real compassion for 'Dr. Dino' as a human being in this skeptic's corner than many Christians would ever give, much less credit to, non-believers.
This may be for his own good. Child rapists are put in solitary not only because of the crime itself, but what may happen if not in solitary.
However, it seems that Hovind has adapted to prison by creating a sermon that appeals to prisoners (the jail system sucks) while still entering in his own message. Devious lil bastard.
Also, anyone who thinks solitary is a "breeze" should try it for 2 days. Just 2. Go to a small room and lock yourself for 47 hours (2 days of 1/2 hour breaks).
Don't feel to bad for Hovind.I have seen many guys held in a holding cell for 10 days.Concrete to sleep on and no hot food.Their crime DUI.I have been dealing with Hovind for many years.He can tell all the lies he wants on his blog.This man is a pathological liar.This sanctimonious SOB is driving people nuts.You might think you are a peaceful person,but how would you like to be locked in the same room with this nut month after month.Being locked up with him violates the 8th amendment of the constitution.If I was locked up with this man they would either move me or I would kick his ass into next week.What a whinebag.Hell Capone was in Alcatraz for tax evasion. Quit crying Hovind.
Is that any excuse to sink to Hovind's level? Man up; take the high road. All of humanity benefits if we treat people with respect, even the ones who don't respect us back. I think there was some guy who said something to that effect once.
Um, ERV, if you shut Hovind, bin Laden, Robertson and Falwell into the same cell, it's not solitary any more.
(The fact that most of them regard most of the others as various shades of apostate, heretic, or unbeliever would just add to the fun.)
My father worked as a guard and later supervisor at a federal prison in Ohio and I'd like to reiterate comment #1 that it is standard procedure for a new inmate to be put in solitary confinement while he is being processed and until he is assigned a cell block. Depending on the prison that processing can take as long as a couple of months.
Of course there are lots of other reasons that prisoners are put into solitary (for rules violations or occasionally their own safety), but I wouldn't read much into this story other than the fact Kent is going through the standard procedure.
Most prisoners will tell you the worst part of their stay is during that processing time, and eventually with good behaviour, or at least not bad, he will be given so many privelages that will make it seem as if his punishment is not harsh enough.
Mark
Yes, it should be. And I can do my part to make it so by giving that respect to others. If they fail to reciprocate, well, that is their failing, which does not affect the duties I owe them.
I totally agree PZ. As much as we may not like Hovind, this kind of thing isnt the answer. Hovind is not violent and serving jail time wont help society out at all. It wont allow him to "pay back" anything he may owe. And honestly from an economic perspective his efforts led to jobs and trade, so its not like he was an unproductive leech.
I would much rather see Hovind pissing off scientists from the debate floor than protecting his behind from Bubba behind bars. Hes more valuable to society as a free man, odd as it may seem.
I don't understand deriving pleasure from another human's suffering. Nobody deserves solidary confinement. I'm shocked by some of these comments that see Good people and Evil people almost to the same degree as Christians do.
I wish I had the eloquence to be able to express myself more fully on this, but I'm just so shaken by this notion that athiests may be just as heartless as the religious nuts.
Man am I having a bad day.
@Sophist #21:
Because we are humans and we made the laws, we have some basic "rights". But I don't need to recognize any "dignity" just because Hovind is a human being. His actions throughout his life only get my utmost contempt. Sorry, I cannot sympathize with his situation.
@Aaron Kinney #38:
You sound like a deluded idiot. "debating scientists"? Are you out of your mind?
@Jen #39:
You miss the point. Not showing sympathy to Hovind's situation is not the same as deriving pleasure from his situation. They are not the same.
Hovind broke the law. He should be behind bars.
Should he be mistreated there? Absolutely not.
Is he? We don't know.
My chinchilla doesn't like to be in his tiny carrier cage, but maybe he should act better and encourage me to trust him out of it before he goes to the vet next time.
It's not like the guy is being tortured. He's spending some alone time. It's not inhumane, it's not permanent, and it's not a big deal.
Sophist--
I must be a bad dude, then, cause I turn mine off like water at a tap. Folks like Hovind will probably never see a drop of it, frankly. Besides, I feel like I missed something-- when did it become the "thing to do" to respect everyone? Doesn't that sort of miss the point?
To Jen (#38)
Lots of people deserve solitary confinement for lots of reasons. The two most common would be 1) they are too dangerous and violent for the general population of the prison and 2) the general population of the prison is too dangerous and violent for them.
I could easily see #2 applying to Hovind. For his conviction, he doesn't warrant solitary confinement as a punishment, but we don't know what he's done in prison. Maybe he's been making sweet love to his cellmates without saying grace. In any case, I don't feel sorry for him. IIRC, he had ample opportunity to avoid a prison sentence.
I read all the blog entries from his friends and supporters. Now I'm going to have a shower.
DaveX:
I have little sympathy for Hovind, but we should not treat him inhumanely. Not for the sake of his dignity - but for our own.
Perhaps just a little snigger... no, no I must resist the temptation.
'Besides, I feel like I missed something-- when did it become the "thing to do" to respect everyone?'
Sophist's original post read, 'It's about basic respect for human dignity.'
Golden Rule:
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Dirtbag Rule:
Do unto others before they do unto you.
It is not that we are taking pleasure at Hovinds physical suffering, rather it is that he is finally reaping what he has sown. That he is finally understanding that the unresonable sentences he and his fellow "self-proclaimed Christians" have promoted cause unreasonable suffering. I am disapointed that he has so little empathy that he couldn't figure this out without being put in the situation himself, and he probably won't remember it after he is back out.
He is not in solitary. By his own admission, he has discussions with God. I cannot fathom why he would even miss the company of mere mortals when he can chew the fat all he wants with the Great Almighty, but then there are many things about the way the man thinks that are beyond me.
I don't like the idea of him (or anyone, for that matter) having to sleep on a cold concrete floor though. I wonder if giving him a yoga mat (or even better, a muslim prayer rug!) would qualify as cruel and unusual punishment.
We don't know the facts of Hovind's situation, since he's a liar and the authorities aren't talking. Most of us have no idea about standard prison procedures, either. It seems ironic that the alleged situation of someone who richly deserves to be in prison may tickle some consciences about the conditions of the hundreds of thousands incarcerated for trivial offenses.
I'm an atheist, and I would send the man my favorite Bible.... What makes it my favorite Bible? It's the one I was reading out of when I realized it all just didn't make sense anymore (if it ever did).
I wonder when he'll get it through his thick head that maybe, just maybe, he's making up the God he believes in.
Why doesn't Hovind's mighty God just bust Hovind out of da joint?
God's omnipotent, right? A wall seems pretty trivial when compared with all the stuff God created.
Problem solved.
I just want to point out the somewhat ironic (is that the proper word, please tell me) situation Hovind finds himself in.
He wants us to feel that it is perhaps a little unjust to lock up non-violent offenders in prison, yet, he claims to worship a God that sends to burn for eternity people who: steal, fail to keep holy the Sabbath, disobey their parents, cheat on their spouses,get divorced, are gay, are not born in the right religion and merely covet the the property and spouses of others.
Ironic? Or some other word?
Irony is the right word! And I can enjoy that while still opposing draconian penal practices (a la human dignity - Sophist).
Aaron #38,
You say: " Hes more valuable to society as a free man, odd as it may seem."
I seriously question the value to society of a man who stole 100's of thousands of dollars from all of us. This isn't someone who skipped a tax return or got a little over-zealous in his write-offs. Kent Hovind is a thief who didn't want to pay his fair share of the taxes under the laws of the land. His best contribution society right now is to serve as an example of what can happen to those who think they are above the law and choose to steal from society.
I agree with Mark above. Hovind behind bars has value quantifiable in revenue dollars by discouraging other would-be tax cheats. Exactly how much I cannot say, but if we send a message that people can openly defy tax law without consequence, it stands to reason that at least some people will do so who would otherwise be discouraged.
I'm not sure how much value he has as a free man. If we really need one more buffoon to debate scientists, we could probably arrange that as part of his probation.
I'm not gloating. It's a terrible thing to take away anyone's freedom. Since Hovind seems unable to understand the social contract, a more appropriate remedy in my view would be expulsion from the community (exile as I stated earlier). This is impractical under existing law, but I honestly don't see what else you do with someone who clearly intends to benefit greatly from a community without giving back.
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Hovind being punished in the justice system, and the injustice of that justice system, are two completely different issues. If we're going to argue about injustice, how about we pick somebody who really doesn't deserve prison, a truly innocent person? Hovind is not that guy.
You're "shocked"? Jeez, you have a low shock threshold, dude. If Richard Dawkins was convicted and imprisoned for tax evasion, we'd witness a tidal wave of smirking and crowing that would drown us and our concerns for years ... and it would come from some of the foremost "spiritual leaders" in the nation.
Hovind doesn't offend me because I'm an atheist. The implication that that's the case is itself an injustice - an unfair whack at unbelievers. "You atheists are just as bad as Christians are!" Hovind offends me because he's a parasite who was doing real injury to real people - and to my society. However much I dislike the justice system, and the tax laws, I'm glad we all got to see that Hovind doesn't have the privilege to flout them, when I and everybody I know has to obey.
Do I derive pleasure from him being in prison? Well, I'm not slapping my knee in childlike glee, but I definitely do feel some satisfaction. He was breaking the law flagrantly and jocularly, and he got caught. Is fulfillment of my sense of justice some kind of forbidden pleasure? I don't think so.
I'll bet a lot of us know the system's messed up. But Hovind is the kind of person - a purveyor of deliberate lies and confusion - who helps KEEP it messed up. Does he deserve to be caught up in it? Given the fact that it DOES exist as it is, you bet he does. The very idea that he should get some kind of special treatment is offensive.
If this is what it takes to slap him awake, for him to begin to understand the justice system is messed up, that's yet another point in favor of him being in prison. If he comes out of prison and becomes an honest champion of improved laws and prisons, so much the better. (But I don't hope for it.)
Just FYI, ordering him not to preach, or to open new museums, would probably be an abrogation of his right to free speech, and that WOULD be an injustice. Confiscate his ministries? Do you think that would even be possible? You'd have Constitutional lawyers up your ass on the first day, and they'd be paid from the coffers of believers all over the world, screaming hordes claiming it as proof that we atheists were trying to make Christianity illegal.
I agree. BUT ... there are limits to the sentiment. When the people who don't respect you have the power to hurt you, that's something else. Gandhi or Rosa Parks wouldn't have lasted a day under Stalin.
Respect also has this other side, the side that says kids (for instance) have to pay for what they break in order to LEARN respect. Hovind broke a social contract that all the rest of us are required to observe - and then sneered at it. Too much forgiveness really is destructive - not just for the person forgiven, but for the society in which we all live. For himself, and for us, Hovind has to pay in the same legal system where he broke the laws.
To imply that he requires some sort of sudden special treatment is to fracture the very foundation of the compassion that stimulates the thought - it injures the sense of fairness and justice that underlies that compassion.
I wouldn't. First BECAUSE THERE IS NO DEBATE, except as it is endlessly manufactured by smug liars such as Hovind himself. Second because this supposed "debate floor" is a thousand miles away from the real issue here: Hovind is NOT behind bars for pissing off scientists. That was never a part of this. He's there for breaking the tax laws.
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A little more information, or misinformation, take your pick, has come out:
If he's lonely in there, toss Dembski and Behe in with him. Although, three cranks confined in one 3x8 room might be enough to start some kind of "woo critical mass".
Er, you do realise you're talking to the internet community...
(I actually do agree with you; just thought I'd point it out)
Nick:
That sounds like unmitigated paranoia. I can't imagine that a chaplain that was that much of a jobsworth would last very long in that role. (Then again, maybe I'm confusing military and prison chaplains?)
kim, that's truly an amazing observation, thanks
Let's be honest. Hovind isn't a "minister," he's a cult leader. And from Nick's latest, it seems once in prison, he started doing the only thing he knew how--brainwashing more followers.
I don't find Hovind a compelling personality in the least, but obviously enough do. Would letting Hovind recruit a gang of inmates convinced that he was a persecuted man-of-god constitute a legitimate threat to prison security? I dunno. Anyone know whether Manson was allowed to mingle in the general inmate population? Perhaps solitary isn't an uncommon remedy for such cult leaders.
"We ought to execute criminals for certain crimes. The prisons are overcrowded because a lot of them should have been executed. If everyone that should have been executed was executed it would do wonders for detouring [sic] crime and lowering the prison population. " - Kent Hovind
I'll limit comment on whether his solitary is justified or not. However - I wonder how much better prison facilities would be if everyone (especially the extremely wealthy) paid their taxes?
How sad all you people are!!
You say that we christians are harsh, take a good look at your comments. So christians get it wrong, so does the world, welcome to the sin nature of man. As followers of Christ we do our best to uphold Gods commandments, but you guys feed of the mistakes we make like a pack of piranahs. Yep Kent Hovind did wrong by the law, no doubt about that, and he's paying for that crime. I really don't think he needs to cop all the flak you guys dish out.
Oh, we christians don't relsih the fact that people will go to hell, if anything it drives us to preach the message of salvation through Jesus Christ.
#47
Sophist,
"when did it become the "thing to do" to respect everyone? Doesn't that sort of miss the point?"
Actually not quite, whether you respect him or not Hovind is still a person. So you still have to at least respect his rights as such. I for one have no respect for anyone who defends the current criminal justice system in this country.
Solitary confinement is not humane treatment. Hovind is human.
http://www.n55.dk/MANUALS/DISCUSSIONS/N55_TEXTS/AB_IDEOLOGIES.html
BTW slightly off topic. If you don't think things are F'd up in this country then read this.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/08/workman.execution/index.html
It is possible to deplore what he's done and yet still express sympathy at his situation.
As much as I hate people that prey on other people, I can't think this man deserves to be treated unfairly. Whatever his situation is, I hope he's being treated to the letter of the law, unless that law is inhumane.
While I certainly hope he can learn from the situation he's in, I don't think it's appropriate to mistreat him in order to teach him a lesson. It makes us no better than him to take pleasure in his discomfort.
I hope that what's been reported is exaggerated and mostly untrue.
The root of 'penitentiary' is 'penitence'. The institution, as originally defined, put all prisoners in solitary confinement with only the Bible to read.
The root of 'penitentiary' is 'penitence'. The institution, as originally defined, put all prisoners in solitary confinement with only the Bible to read.
Sounds like he was putting together his own prison gang, like this guy...
It's nice to see that Kent Hovind is getting back to the true roots of his religion. Jails are certainly unjust and un-Christian...the penalty for nearly every crime (like being an unruly child) should, clearly, be death.
A handful of lesser crimes, like rape, can be settled by paying a small fine...we don't need to kill everyone.
This Jesus character introduced much confusion into whether or not these laws should stand, stating that not a "jot or tittle" of the law would change and then contradicting several of them by words or actions. Christians are hardly to blame for their mistaken notion that incarceration was a valid option - but they can still be punished for this mistake.
The question now, is; how would Jesus punish them for their mistaken notions about incarceration? Kill them or forgive them?
-Matt
It's nice to see that Kent Hovind is getting back to the true roots of his religion. Jails are certainly unjust and un-Christian...the penalty for nearly every crime (like being an unruly child) should, clearly, be death.
A handful of lesser crimes, like rape, can be settled by paying a small fine...we don't need to kill everyone.
This Jesus character introduced much confusion into whether or not these laws should stand, stating that not a "jot or tittle" of the law would change and then contradicting several of them by words or actions. Christians are hardly to blame for their mistaken notion that incarceration was a valid option - but they can still be punished for this mistake.
The question now, is; how would Jesus punish them for their mistaken notions about incarceration? Kill them or forgive them?
-Matt
Kent annoys me for many reasons, but the biggest is the fact that the literal christian argument for the bible being the literal truth falls flat on it's face. While I am a fairly strong atheist, I will admit that my one weakness is that I would like for their to be a "cosmic justice". Where all major religions fall flat is when they become dogmatic, and say that what a simple animistic preist considered to be truth thousands of years ago will actually reflect reality. So, trying to get some conversation (I won't really say actual thought going) this is what I tried to post on the CSE blog.
It hasn't gone to an actual post yet, but if it doesn't, I present it here for the pharyngulites to give their critiques in order to hone it further:
I am afraid I have to agree with Fu Manchu on many points.
This statement is interesting: "No, we could bury ourselves with exhaustive volumes of people writing about what they happened to believe was evidence. 'Evidence' is not two hundred books all referring to the Bible. The Bible, on the other hand, is evidence; it's just not convincing or conclusive evidence. Legally speaking, it's hearsay from a series of absent witnesses."
Unfortunately, many people point to the bible as evidence, or even worse yet, referring to other tomes that refer to the bible as evidence. Fu rightly states that the bible is not convincing or conclusive evidence. It would be slightly better than hearsay if it had confirmation of at least a few details from a source that did not in general support the bible. Unfortunately for christian theologians, they have done little to actually bolster their claim other than refer to other believers.
Unfortunately, this lack of reference to spectacular claims outside of adherents to their own religions is nothing unique to chrisitanity. All major religions, from islam to judaism, to buddhism, to brahmanism all fail this test. There really isn't any proof outside of the writings of their own adherents that support their claims.
For christianity alone there were gnostics, jainists, ebionites, and marcionites and I am sure many other early groups that I forgot. The proto-orhtodox won out when it came time to declare the canon, but I am afraid that christianity was anything but orthodox in it's early centuries. The sad part is that the proto-orthodox spent their time destroying the claims of the other early christians rather than systematically refuting them.
That is what frustrates me so much about hovind and others like him. I can respect a theistic evolutionists opinion that somehow "god" influenced in undetectable ways the evolution of life. I cannot respect the shallow opinions of the DI who offer vacuous proofs of an "intelligent" designer. I am afraid that creationists who refer to bible verses to support their claim rest somewhere far below Earnhardt Jr. pontificating on global economics. The bible was never meant to be a science textbook. There may be one gem from it sociologically (the golden rule), but there is to much contradiction within it's pages to accept more than that one, and that one is from the NT.
But, here is where I come to what I consider the fundamentalists greatest failure. The bible has little but itself and writings of it's adherents to back up it's claims regarding the deity it is describing. Worse yet, fundamentalists will twists results from experiments in nature in order to make their results fit the literal words of the bible, confusing the allegory that it contains as a literal explanation of the universe. Scientists using the way that nature acts have tested and retested theory's of things such as gravity, physics, and evolution. The nature of science is to always test, so bad theory's inevitably fall by the wayside. It may take a while, but that is one of the pleasures of a true scientist, to show that another scientist who established a well tested theory was wrong in some way. So, given the assumption that the christian god created everything, and that the bible really doesn't contain details of how the universe works (other than a few obvious sociological laws), why to fundamentalists of every stripe, jew, muslim, and christian work against these theorys that have been so well tested? If these well established theory's were not how god intended the universe to work out, why does he allow it to continue to do so? Why hasn't there been some sort of intervention that can be recorded as going against god's normal rules? The rules of god's own universe state that if something didn't fit into the rules that it would stand out like a sore thumb. The flood hypothesis of AIG and hovind has long been answered. Even though the answer doesn't contain all the minute details, geology and paleontology work much better than the answer of a global flood, and are even more simplistic than the global flood for the intellectually honest. Why do the fundamentalists rail so hard against the rules of the universe that the scientists have discovered? As science stretches it reach, these rules are refined, and become better verified. Why rail against the rules of a universe that your god has set up? The era of the greatest discoveries in science was driven by men who wished to discover the rules that god set for his creation. Why do fundamentalists of every stripe spend so much time ignoring them in books written thousands of years ago by people who may have possibly been inspired, but had little chance of truly understanding the full reaches of that inspiration?
Christian,
How do you test evolution?
Could it be that those who have done research have been just as biased as the christian!! There is no such thing as unbiased science. Evolutionists are renown for fitting in their discoveries with the fossil record, even when the evidence is contrary.
As for all the other fields of science, they were mostly discovered by christians.
Did you know that athiesim is a religion? You have to believe that there is no God. While the Christian can't 100% prove the existence of God, the Athiest can't prove the non existence of God. The Athiests also quote form thousands of tomes that support their view, so really what your saying is quite hypocritical.
I'd love to dispute this statement, but I'm afraid it's time for my nightly Church of Nothing prayer meeting, where we offer up prayers to the nothingness out there and ask it to continue failing to intercede in the events of our lives.
Oh well, another time perhaps.
AllforChrist, you should be proud of yourself.
Your inane comments continue to reinforce the stereotype that all Christians are just a mob of bigots who believe that God's love means they are allowed to wallow in the despicable filth of their nigh-bottomless ignorance.
Bravo.
We used those bible pages to great effect. They're great for rolling refers.
We used those bible pages to great effect. They're great for rolling refers.
We used those bible pages to great effect. They're great for rolling refers.
Stanton,
Your comments have reinforced my belife in Christ. Apart from the name calling you have simply proven that your the one who is the bigot. Thank You for proving this!!
Bruce W,
Maybe I could come to your prayer meeting and actually add a great element to it. God!!!!
The funny thing about your comment is that you believe in nothing.
Ray,
I guess you can literally call that "Holy smoke". Maybe you should read your reefer papers before using them!!
Hovind is getting exactly what he deserves. This is what he wrote in "Chapter 3" of the 1995 seminar he used to give - most of which he's still purveying (probably word-for-word) today:
"The dentist said, Mr. Hovind, this kid has a cavity. I said, Yes sir, I know about that. Are you talking about the big one in his head or the one in his tooth?...I said, Its no problem. When he gives you the shot, your mouth will go numb so he can drill out the bad part and fill the hole with silver....Have you ever seen a kid freak out; I mean completely lose control in a dentists chair? He lost it. He was screaming and hollering and yelling. Well, the doctor called the nurse, and the nurse sat on him, the doctor sat on him, and I sat on him. We tried to hold him still, but we couldnt hold him still enough for that kind of operation....I said, Doc, let me take him outside and talk to him for a few minutes. We went out to the parking lot, got in the old Chevy van and sat in the back seat. I said, Son, listen carefully. You know that I love you. He said, I know daddy. I said, Now son, I told you to sit still. You did not sit still. What happens when you disobey daddy? He said, Sniff, sniff... I get a spanking? I said, Correct, bend over. Boy, did I give him a spanking, and it was a doozy. A few minutes later, smoke was rising off his hind end, tears were coming out of his eyes, and pearls were coming out of his nostrils -- the whole thing."
In my book that's child abuse.
Budikka