If you've recently had lunch, don't go to this opinion piece from a fanatical sports fan at Iowa State University. It will turn your stomach. It's a tirade against Hector Avalos, of course, who is apparently the man who runs ISU (it's amazing how holding an opinion contrary to the majority suddenly elevates you to a controlling power). It's an appalling demonstration of ignorance and idiocy by some born again fool named Steve Deace.
This isn't about the separation of church and state, and this isn't about tolerance. This is about one thing and one thing only—the separation of Christ and state.
Jesus Christ is unique among all other figures in history, and that's why over two millennia later a boy born in a barn is still making folks like Mr. Avalos nervous. He asserted absolutes, and said that if you weren't for him you were against him. He leaves no middle ground about who he is, and doesn't provide you the escape hatch of a good moral teacher. That's because billions of people across the globe worship him every day as the embodiment of the only true God. A good moral teacher doesn't lie about who he is.
OK. He's not unique; he doesn't make us nervous; we're against him; and since he lied about who he is, we should conclude that he is not a good moral teacher.
Mr Deace could splutter indignantly now, if only he'd heard my opinion while he was writing that tripe. Since he didn't, he carries on, unfortunately.
Other religions, like Islam, bastardize him. Other religions dismiss him. Other religions try to downplay him by including him in a pantheon of other gods. But nobody — and I do mean nobody — ignores him.
He's the greatest phenomena that ever crossed the horizon of this world. He's the centerpiece of western civilization. He's unique…he's unparalleled…he's unprecedented. For folks like Mr. Avalos, try as the might they can't get him out of their minds, and they can't outlive him nor can they live without him.
What Mr. Avalos, and others like him, really fear is that Coach Chizik's plan for a team chaplain may inspire a generation of young men wearing the Cyclone uniform to reconsider their eternal destiny, which will cause them to reconsider how to live their temporal lives on this planet. If they do that they may not vote the way folks like Mr. Avalos prefer, nor will they likely live the way folks like Mr. Avalos do. And when you're of the mindset of a Mr. Avalos and are convinced that this life is all there is, you will fight to the grave for it.
No, that's not what we fear, and that's not why we care about this unquestioning and fervent belief in superstition. It's because it turns people like Steve Deace into demented morons. Thanks, Mr Deace, for reminding me why I despise religion!
Maybe he should take one of Dr Avalos's religious studies courses and learn that what Deace considers an absolute truth is actually a collection of self-serving lies that have turned him into a ranting godbot.
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I thought Mel Gibson is the centerpiece of western civilizaion. What gives?
How else do you expect Deace to play the victim card if he doesn't have anybody in power keepin' him down!
Reading between the lines here ...
If they do that they may not vote the way folks like Mr. Avalos prefer (instead, they will vote the way we prefer), nor will they likely live the way folks like Mr. Avalos do (instead, they will live the way we do).
It's amazing how these folks can't see or won't acknowledge the wider world around them. It's always black or white; good or evil.
Guy sounds like a pro-wrestling manager.
I've got one that would make his head spin-- get rid of the whole athletic program, and focus on using brains for more than something to put a football helmet on!
I love the term Ranting Godbot.
I must use it more.
Homoeroticism of sport + homoeroticism of the love of Jesus = some kind of super-homoeroticism?
"Heck, they've even convinced an entire generation of Americans that the words "separation of church and state" are actually written in the Constitution. They're not, but the Constitution does end with the words, "...in the year of our Lord."
Well thats me convinced.
OK, this guy is clearly a numbskull but its amazing the firepower that the Discovery Institute still has in its promotion of one of its own, Guillermo Gonzales and its disparagement of Hector Avalos. On their recent podcast they
had both Sam Brownback and Newt Gingrich calling for Gonzales to be given tenure.
I thought all that 'I love Jesus' stuff was a bit gay. Then I noticed the website is headlined by a big 'purple-pride' banner.
I think it's great that Deace and this Jesus guy are lovers. And I thought that sports-writers were homophobic.
OK. He's not unique; he doesn't make us nervous; we're against him; and since he lied about who he is, we should conclude that he is not a good moral teacher.
I'm not sure I'd blame him for the lies, there is some evidence that his basic message was "be nice to each other" and that his "followers" turned him in to the "son of God," etc. etc.
Photo - Steve Deace
"....are convinced that this life is all there is...."
This common, inane, sentiment always stupifies me when I hear it.
It's a pure display of arrogance. It announces that in their estimation of ALL things, that Nature itself is CLEARLY insufficient to provide humanity full meaning.
Wow.
"And when you're of the mindset of a Mr. Avalos and are convinced that this life is all there is, you will fight to the grave for it."
I believe this is the only true statement in that screed. I am making the best of my life, the only life I get, and I will fight against the demented God-botherers who are trying to force their idiotic beliefs on me and everyone else. I refuse to waste my life dreaming about the supposed rewards of some bizarre fantasy afterlife.
Chiming in from Ames, Iowa...home of Iowa State University.
Just a couple of things before this liberal, NPR-loving atheist catches the next CyRide bus home...Mr. Deace is on our local far right wingnut Clear Channel station (which I don't listen to). Here's a few links for your perusal:
Iowa Underground: CityView's Best of Des Moines
Iowa Underground: Steve Deace/WHO is horrible
Deace's page at WHO
The drive time show on WHO used to be pretty reasonable, now they have this jerk. I listened to his show once, and then tuned back to our local NPR station. Read the comments on the first two links.
BTW, I decided to listen in again, and he's interviewing Sam Brownback. They're doing the "Christian America" thing, with how the separation of church and state are PURE EVIL, etc.
Bastardize Him? Bastardize Him? I'm a bastard and Jesus, you're no bastard. What? Your mother wasn't married to your father? Jesus welcome to the Deuteronomy club, where no Bastard shall be allowed into an associaton of the Lord. Hope you like cool jazz, cos that's what's going to be playing in my circle of hell.
When are the religious going to wake up to the fact that there is no evidence that guys like this are any more moral than the rest of us? I've never known any born-agains to actually become nicer, kinder, more considerate, more conscientous, more selfless, more truthful, or more anything (besides obnoxious) than they were before they were born again. This doesn't necessarily mean that none are, but there certainly doesn't seem to be any correlation.
Oh, unless you count teetotalling and gay-bashing as morality.
I'm confused. Is Dr. Avalos hitting on his students?
Or are roosters trying to convert hens to some militant rooster ideology?
Hope you like cool jazz, cos that's what's going to be playing in my circle of hell.
...and when you tire of cool jazz, come on over the endless bad sci-fi marathon I'll be running.
You are sadly misinformed. The Hostess Twinkie is the centerpiece of western civilization.
I am convinced that there is, hard wired into the ape-brains of many within our species, an overwhelming compulsion to fawn over and curry favor from some dominate alpha male. It seems to completely override their ability to think straight.
Roosterfarianism.
Why would an atheist, and an activist one at that, want to teach in the religious studies department? For the same reason a rooster wants into the hen house.
I'm confused. Is Dr. Avalos hitting on his students?
Or are roosters trying to convert hens to some militant rooster ideology?
I think there was some discussion over the preoccupation with sex the creobots seem to have on another thread.
evidently, it's so bad they tend to even mess up their own lame-ass metaphors.
If I'm not mistaken, I think the author meant to invoke the "fox in the henhouse" metaphor, but ended up providing another data point to support the "preoccupied with sex" hypothesis.
I don't normally like to attack people for the way they look, etc., etc., but that photo of Steve Deace scared me more than any sermon from my Catholic upbringing ever did.
If Brandon (#3) is right and those of his ilk pine for a time when we all act and think like them, then somebody please stop this monster before he destroys us all!
Sure. Now, can you show me where the word trinity appears in your Bible?
Anyone who can swallow the premise that college football has anything more than a peripheral connection to universities or academics, should have no difficulty believing in virgin birth.
'Student-athletes' or the six-day creation: which is the more outrageous myth?
You are sadly misinformed. The Hostess Twinkie is the centerpiece of western civilization.
Isn't Mel merely a subset of that? I've always viewed him as rather twinkie-like.
Very good QrazyQat, or maybe
Zoroosterianism?
Peter, you remind me of the definition of a gentleman: someone who can play jazz guitar, but doesn't.
Why would an atheist, and an activist one at that, want to teach in the religious studies department?
I dunno. Why would a non-felon want to teach criminology?
I found this on a web forum:
What a guy.
I don't know if I should laugh or cry when a "ranting godbot" goes off on how special the Jeebus was. As if stating the first century equivalent of "don't piss in other people's cheerios" is some major insight.
They remind me of small children who've just 'discovered' that it's wrong to hit people and have to repeat to everyone within earshot until their next big moral 'discovery'.
This quotation has interesting implications: "What Mr. Avalos, and others like him, really fear is that Coach Chizik's plan for a team chaplain may inspire a generation young men wearing the Cyclone uniform to reconsider their eternal destiny, which will cause them to reconsider how to live their temporal lives on this planet."
If the efforts of the chaplain did have this effect--one which Deace seems to feel would be a desirable one--doesn't that suggest that the good offices of the university would have indeed been used to prosyletize?
Aw, c'mon... the ties between sport and underplayed homoeroticism is as old a theme as there is. The greeks, anyone?
Jesus Christ: Dark Lord of the Sith. Who knew?
RE the "Purple Pride" thing: the article got reprinted at a Kansas State site. The original article is at Cyclone Nation, a site founded and published by Steve Deace, moron and bigot.
Cyclone Nations Forum - for those who care enough to register in order to tell Deace what a moron and bigot he is.
Just to add to #10's point, and to highlight the fact that even a good message can be misrepresented, I should note that Deace (and so many other fundies) have gotten at least one of Jesus' messages completely screwed up. To whit...
"Jesus Christ is unique among all other figures in history, and that's why over two millennia later a boy born in a barn is still making folks like Mr. Avalos nervous. He asserted absolutes, and said that if you weren't for him you were against him. "
As I recall (and it has been a while), the story this quote comes from (Don't recall the book, line, or passage (as I said, been a while) involves an incident where some disciples noticed a few "magicians" casting out demons by invoking Jesus' name. When they asked if they shouldn't thump the magicians to put an end to it, Jesus responded by saying "he who is not my enemy is my friend" or "he who is not against me is with me" (again, been a while). How this got turned 180 is a bit of a mystery to me, but unfortunately isn't surprizing.
O.k., they got it turned by quoting Jesus in a different passage (Luke and Mark, Apparently) where he says "he who is not with me is against me." After I posted, I did a quick Google and found the quotes. I even found a site trying to reconcile the two statements.
This is the point where I scratch my head, mutter something about feeling like an idiot, and apologize for posting without doing a little background reading.
Sorry,
Russ
Gimme a D...
Gimme an E...
Gimme a M...
Gimme an E...
Gimme a N...
Gimme a T...
Gimme an E...
Gimme a D...
Whaddas it spell?
DEMENTED!
That photo (#11) isn't really of Steve Deace... it's a "funny caption" contest photo. It does tell us, though, what at least one person thinks of Steve Deace.
The caption that made me LOL was the second runner-up: "Oh my God, he's wearing those boots with THAT belt?"
That Deace guy is a moron. Of course atheists care about Jesus, or rather they care about all the wingnuts running around trying to force fascist-style laws on everybody in the name of Jesus. It's hard not to.
My take on this moron's screed about Dr. Avalos being in the Religious studies department is that an atheist should be fired for his beliefs (in Deace's view) being in conflict with his chosen profession. Would that mean then that all devout Christians should be fired from biology, paleontology, geology, anthropology, physics, and astrophysics departments? If they truly believe what the Bible teaches, then how could they possibly work in those areas?
Of course if one were to suggest that to him, it would be "anti-Christian" bigotry and discrimination.
Well, really I think Deace's problem is that he doesn't understand what religious studies is. You don't have to believe in something to describe or write about it. But then, Deace seems to have trouble understanding a lot of stuff, like the fact that starting a petition does not equal running the university.
Not to flood the forum, my two cents' worth is at http://stmarnock.multiply.com/journal/item/23. Thanks for keeping me posted on the latest unsanity.
I hope this smear campaign helps sell Avalos's books. I know it motivated me to buy two of them (the second will be arriving soon, or so the Internet tells me). Fighting Words (2005) was good. I recommend it to everybody, and I hope to post a review of it soon; my only real complaint is that the book, or at least the printing I got, was not thoroughly proofread.
In other news, I got my first creationist troll today (in response to this post). I junked the comment, actually, because as much as I appreciate free discourse, drivel is not the same as content.
Technically he is right, the words separation of church and state do not appear. But the idea does and those words are mentioned by one of the people who actually wrote the thing, Jefferson. I've pointed out all along that the agenda of the wingnut godbots is to overthrow the US government and set up a theocracy. Also been called an alarmist exagerating for effect. But, if you ask clowns like Deace and Brownback and Dembski if that is what they want, they say, Yes, sure.
I'm glad it wasn't just me doing a double-take at his comments about an atheist taking religious studies classes. I took a couple of religious studies classes in college and found them fascinating.
What does this brickbrain think happens in a religious studies class? Does he think it's a prayer meeting? After roll call everybody breaks out his hymnal? The classes I took offered secular, rational, scientific analysis of the origins and history of the Judeo-Christian religion. There was no proselytizing. The unspoken assumption - as I understood it, anyway - was that the miraculous elements and divine interventions depicted in the Bible were to be approached the same way we approach the same depictions in The Iliad or The Epic of Gilgamesh. And we spent a lot of time looking at the non-Biblical origins of Old Testament mythology.
I can't think of anything that would undermine a fundamentalist interpretation of scripture more effectively than a good religious studies class. At least, that was my experience.
I'm a bit confused by this bit in the article, re: Gene Chizik,
Is Chizik being compared to vomit? Avalos to a dog? I don't get it.
MikeG
Deace is so wrapped up in his own efforts at self-aggrandizement that he probably didn't even know that ISU had a football team until the team chaplain thing happened. He's not a sports fan in any meaningful sense.
And as a Texas fan, I'm greatly disappointed in Coach Chizik (who was recently the defensive coordinator here in Austin), as well. Who does he think he is, Fisher DeBerry?
Here's the explanation for the Fisher DeBerry reference, for those of you not athletically informed:
I heard that the top of the list for team chaplain is none other than P. Z. Myers. Something about getting the word from on high, "and Morris is much higher than anything in Iowa, according to my map."
Are you still opposed, P.Z.? Don't you want to be position to tell the team to "win one for the kracken?"
raven wrote:
Technically he is right, the words separation of church and state do not appear. But the idea does and those words are mentioned by one of the people who actually wrote the thing, Jefferson.
As long as you're being technical, Jefferson was not "one of the people who actually wrote the thing". He wasn't even in the country when the thing was written.
I hope the god-intoxicated players on the ISU team are pointing up at the sky when they score. That's always fun to watch.
Look, honey, another idiot is giving credit to Mr. invisible sky god!
@Max
That's a very good point. I went to a Catholic high school, and they required us to take a "World Religions" course (I do live in the D.C. area, so I suppose it's a bit more liberal than most places). At that point I knew something was up with Christianity, but I didn't really know anything about other religions. It really was a great class. Gives you perspective.
"try as the might they can't get him out of their minds, and they can't outlive him nor can they live without him."
Well, I sure don't think about him much. I'm confused about the part where I can't outlive him...I mean he was dead before I was born. Oh yeah, on the last part, seems easy enough to live without him too. You say you can't live without somebody who's been dead for 2k years? Man, that's not a good sign.
Lost to UConn 37-20, Started blog, perhaps turned to Jesus for help.
All in 2002. Coincidence?
Steve Deace: "Jesus Christ is unique among all other figures in history, and that's why over two millennia later a boy born in a barn is still making folks like Mr. Avalos nervous. He asserted absolutes, and said that if you weren't for him you were against him. He leaves no middle ground about who he is, and doesn't provide you the escape hatch of a good moral teacher. That's because billions of people across the globe worship him every day as the embodiment of the only true God. A good moral teacher doesn't lie about who he is."
As I recall Jesus did *not* assert the absolutes that Steve embraces, but asserted absolutes that *Steve* is in violation of.
Steve is just *vainly* trying to substitute his desires for those of Jesus (real or fictional is irrelevant).
Ugh, I forgot how loathsome Deace is. He used to be on Des Moines' only sports talk radio show and often went off on extreme right wing politics and Jesus babbling during his afternoon show. What's sad is that he really has great sports knowledge, but he suffers from the Jesus virus, which turns you into a blithering idiot. Thankfully, he's been moved down the hall to the same channel that hosts Rush and Dr. Laura and the sports talk has returned to sports. Well, except for when Jim Rome is on.
Did anyone else's mother ever say: "Were you brought up in a barn?"
===============================================
Did he leave out any cliché/bromide/existential inanity?
"He's the greatest phenomena that ever crossed the horizon of this world."
Must be, since he's plural. As for myself, I'm only a phenomenon.
Whoa man, Steve Deace plays for team Jesus Christ! We should listen to him. After all, nobody who puts on an effusive display of enthusiasm about homoerotic ball tossing to prove he's very manly and straight could have anything less than an erudite understanding of philosophy and the humanities. Avalos must really hate America and God, and those nice straight men who shower together, dress up in tights, and slap each other on the ass.
DeBerry sometimes does car commercials that are aired on the radio stations here in Colorado Springs. They make me wish I was deaf, and would probably make me go deaf if I listened to them enough.
Same here. For my part, I'm going to pick them up just based on the posts he's written here. Ahh, we should OM him next time the election is up if he continues to post here.
Are you still opposed, P.Z.? Don't you want to be position to tell the team to "win one for the kracken?"
somehow, I don't think the kraken works as a carrot.
more likely, it would be used as a stick:
"Win this one or I'll feed you TO the Kraken!"
but then, he probably would do that at the end of the season anyway.
Krakens gotta eat too, after all.
Raven and Tomh; We're talking about the non-establishment clause of the first amendment here and that's Madison's baby more than anybody's. And you can find the idea of separation of church and state all over his writings. When Congress, during Madison's presidency, established an official congressional chaplain, Madison opposed it, feeling that it violated the non-establishment clause.
These founding father cats weren't Christians. The most the religionists can hope for is that maybe they were Deists.
Not that Louis wrote:
A bunch of stuff.
I don't know what you're talking about, but what I responded to was someone saying that Jefferson was one of those who wrote the Constitution. He wasn't.
I have never really thought that the "spit" war over the religious beliefs of the Framers was all that important, nor is it really all that interesting. They managed to create a secular document and a set of amendments which were ratified by enough states to become the "Supreme Law of the Land."
They could have all been Celtic Pagans or "Musselman" for all it matters.
I ignore him. I'm just that awesome.
(Also, shouldn't "Him" be capitalized? I mean, if we're going all-out fundie monster mode here...)
And for those listeners in need of a physical as well as a spiritual role model, Deace's 1040 WHO web page offers:
"You've heard me talk about the program that's helping me lose weight and get healthier. You can find out more about this program at Preventive Health Sciences web site"
Among the services provided by "Preventive Health Sciences" (see, Deace isn't *totally* anti-science...) is Spinal Disc Decompression which also appears to reduce compression in the wallets of the gullible by relieving them of excess cash.
You may call it "ignorance and idiocy" I call it targeted marketing.
CalGeorge:
Nope. The Big XII North hasn't been fun to watch in at least five years, with or without the sky-pointing. And they're going to get absolutely reamed four weeks in a row this fall (@ Nebraska, @ Texas Tech, vs. Texas, vs. Oklahoma).
Martin,
I'm not sure what academic credentials Brownback might have (I'm betting they're pretty thin) but Gingrich has about the academic credibility of a can of spam. This is a man with a PhD in American History I once heard publicly (and badly) misquote the U.S. Constitution. I've long been of the opinion (being an historian myself) that they should revoke his PhD (but Tulane still hasn't admitted they made a mistake with that, so I'm afraid my hope is vain.) Not exactly the man Guillermo Gonzales should want advocating for him.
Makes me wonder, why is the a battle for the souls of the football players? Are they part of a bigger plot? Will how the team accepts the great sky man have an affect on the rest of us. Damn, I thought it was just football. Or perhaps if the team becomes a force for Christ, the rest of ISU will follow. And where will this leave Avalos. No wonder he is so scared of the chaplain.
TomH wrote: "I don't know what you're talking about..."
Well, you knew enough to know Jefferson wasn't the man who drafted the Bill of Rights. Are you saying you have no idea what Madison's views were?
Right, Louis2, which makes David Barton's fabricated Madison "quotes" all the more contemptible. Anyone with even a casual understanding of Madison would look upon those dominionist statements (which Barton attributed to Madison) with profound skepticism.
Barton, whose book The Myth of Separation is a vertiable fountain of disinformation, was hired by the RNC in 2004 to stump for Bush. He spent a year courting the evangelical vote, racking up 300 speaking engagements at RNC-sponsored lunches for local evangelical pastors across the USA. Now why do you suppose Barton and the RNC would do that, given that churches risk losing their tax-exempt status if they endorse political candidates?
The hypocrisy of this strategy, coming especially from those who would espouse the "one-directional wall of separation" interpretation of the establishment clause, is astonishing.
Kseniya wrote:
Well, you knew enough to know Jefferson wasn't the man who drafted the Bill of Rights. Are you saying you have no idea what Madison's views were?
I'm saying none of it had anything to do with my post, which simply corrected a mis-statement of fact. Jefferson was not one of those who wrote the Constitution.
Icthyic, I'm bringing the complete works of Brit sci fi author Peter Hamilton to the marathon. By the time we're done with them ('space operas') eternity will be over.
What is it with these retards and the term "militant atheist"?
I don't see atheists marching around in uniforms, carrying guns, or planting bombs. Oddly, we read about religious nuts doing it every day. So tell me again who is militant.
Religion has enjoyed such a long run where nobody would challenge them, that I don't think they know what to do when someone speaks out against them.
I've think that the more reactionary a person is when their position is threatened, the less sure they are of it. Perhaps, deep down, many of these drones are filled with doubts, but they're too afraid to admit it.
OEJ
"But living out your Christian faith has a tendency to attract folks like Hector Avalos in this world, like a dog returns to its own vomit."
I like how he equates Christian faith with Dog Vomit!
Sounds about right.
"Jesus Christ is unique among all other figures in history"
Isn't everyone unique among all other figures in history?
#40 is correct--that picture is from the wacky caption contest in Cityview magazine. In real life Deace bears a striking facial resemblance to the silent movie star Fatty Arbuckle.
And he's an insufferable git.
Deace's philosophy could be summed up as: "Jesus uber alles."
The guy is a total moronic clueless Deace-bag. Everyone knows Jesus Christ is a Notre Dame Fan! GO IRISH!
Funny, I can say the same thing of that idiot Bush. Of course, goose-steppers like Deace probably admire him for that.
Hey, I'm feeling left out here. I got tenure this year, I'm a moderately outspoken atheist on my campus, and no one has written any letters like that about me!! What gives? How can I rise to the level of uber-lord of undead evil, or whatever it is?
I guess if we had an ID-creationist here who was denied tenure at the same time, then there might be more of an uproar.
#74:
Reminds me of that scene in Happy Gilmore: "You eat pieces of shit for breakfast?!"
Ah as a Colorado Buffaloes fan I am designed to hate ISU (see design can be intelligent). But as this yutz does his muckety-muck about the US being a "xtian nation" I cannot help but recall the Treaty of Tripoli
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
The standard response to the "the constitution doesn't say 'separation of church and state' anywhere" whinge is to point out that it doesn't contain the literal phrases "separation of powers" and "checks and balances" either. But, like "separation of church and state," those terms are convenient shorthand to refer to concepts which are enshrined in the constitution.
WHO-TV in Des Moines interviewed me yesterday concerning the chaplain situation at Iowa State University. The TV station later juxtaposed an interview with Steve Deace to counter mine on their website.
For the Steve Deace interview, see:
http://www.whotv.com/Global/category.asp?C=90994&nav=menu100_5_1
My complete unedited interview is available at:
http://www.whotv.com/Global/category.asp?C=90994&nav=menu100_5_1
You can judge the difference for yourselves.
I note he also gets the role of Jesus in Islam wrong, too, but what else is new?
And the bit about how certain phrases do not appear literally in the constitution - of course they put it that way. Think of how they treat the bible - as a bunch of sound bites and catchphrases to be taken "literally".
Max Udargo: Hence, people like Daniel Dennett have called for increased scientific study of religion.
Chris Hyland: Of course. If they were identical, they'd be one. Mind you, Jesus might not be a historical figure at all, but that's another story.