Inside Higher Ed is reporting on a new sociological study that shows a greater frequency of rejection of religion by young people who don't attend college. We college professors aren't responsible!
Percent of Young Adults Reporting Religious Declines, by Level of Education
| Educational Attainment | Decline in Attending Services | Decline in Importance of Religion | Disaffiliation From Religion |
| Didn’t attend college | 76.2% | 23.7% | 20.3% |
| Attended, but earned no degree | 71.5% | 16.3% | 14.6% |
| Earned associate degree | 60.3% | 15.1% | 14.4% |
| Earned at least a bachelor’s degree | 59.2% | 15.0% | 15.0% |
This isn't really that surprising — there are a couple of facts of life about college. The universities are infested with clubs and organizations that push religion on our students, with relatively little representation by skeptic/atheist groups—we have religious events going on all the time, which are well advertised and by all appearances, well-funded. And the classrooms are definitely not places where we push back.
Regnerus said that what the study suggests — and his personal experience confirms — is that while there are plenty of non-religious professors around, they aren’t trying to discourage any students from practicing their faith. “Of course there are some who are hostile to religion. But they don’t teach that. They teach their discipline,” Regnerus said. The attitude, he added, is: “Whatever I think about evangelicals, when I go to teach quantum physics, I teach quantum physics.”
While I may have a reputation as a ferocious atheist on the web, it just doesn't show up in my classes. I have a hard enough time squeezing in all the key biology material without tossing in stuff about godlessness that won't show up on the tests. Besides, you just know that the god-blather on an exam would just make them easier. For example,
Extension of a tip link in a hair cell opens K+ channels that lead to
a. hyperpolarization of the membrane.
b. depolarization of the membrane.
c. calcium influx.
d. activation of voltage-gated K+ channels.
e. none of the above: Jesus regulates your ion channels.
I think the students would all just know that (e) wasn't among the right answers.
There was another odd correlation. Well, maybe not so odd.
Those who don't have sex before marriage are also those who don't experience as much of a drop in religious connection. Those who have smoked pot experience more of a drop. Those who increase alcohol consumption during their young adulthood experience more of a drop in religious connection.
We college professors don't contribute much to the wild parties and the deflowering of virgins, I'm afraid, and those apparently contribute to the abandonment of religion. It does suggest exciting new recruiting strategies for atheists, though!
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As someone in the attended but earned no degree (man I'm lazy and should fix that) I can attest that it was my own freedom from outside influence that brought me around to being an atheist.
We college professors don't contribute much to the wild parties and the deflowering of virgins
You... don't ? B-but... I was really looking forward to those famed Dionysic academic orgies, where the professor is the phallic focal point of the freshmen girls. One career path less to choose from, then...
"We college professors don't contribute much to the wild parties and the deflowering of virgins"
That was not true when I was a student.
Other studies show that the better educated you are the less religious you are. This means that among the better educated there are less religious people to enjoy that decline.
Conversely among the less educated there are more religious people who can enjoy such decline aided by alcohol and virgity loss or whatever.
lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Unclosed italics tag on the loose...
The table headings are looking a little hinky, too....
Mechanical depolarization! B! I think.
PZ, have you ever taken a philosophy class? The philosophy professors at my university, save the one Christian one, regularly takes their senior and star students top bars for drunken debauchery. Hell, the Christian one takes his students to wine tastings. I disagree that not all professors deflower the virgins and yadda yadda.
But I do agree that science classes tend to not be a good forum for religious discussion due to the science being significantly more important than religion. Philosophy classes are, and so are classical studies classes as I'm find out this summer. Greek mythology kicks ass.
if those stats count places such as Liberty University as providing "college" education, then no wonder.
Your italics stop... here.
Well, I guess not.
nice try though
We're all leaning dangerously to the right!
To #6
If K+ channels open, then K+ ions would flow out of the cell to "try" to reach K+'s Nernst potential, ~-70 to -80 mV, so the membrane would be hyperpolarized, so the correct answer would be 'A'. That is if I remember my neuroscience correctly. Did I get it right?
This fits with my experience that it's now mainly the conservative sheep who go to college.
It's like everything's a quote! Ahh!
Maybe the "attended, no degree" people just can't stand institutions. I believe my son falls in this category.
Damn it, I had my concentration gradient backwards.
Alternatively, perhaps the non-religious face greater discrimination in high school, and are thus disinclined to continue to college.
Rosie,
Did you mean conservative sheep like Dawkins and PZ?
Jesus regulates my ion channels.
Or, perhaps, the "spiritual but not really religious" and "Christmas, Easter, weddings and funerals" demographics of religious believers don't find their Laodicean faith challenged by what they learn.
Wow, I fit into all of those categories... dropped out of college, did immoral things like drink and have sex before marriage, and even worse... and have stayed away from religion since elementary school!
Sorry, entgegen, you got it wrong. Hair cells are immersed in a special high K+ extracellular fluid so that opening the K+ channels on the apical surface actually depolarizes the cell.
Another hint: my multiple choice questions can have more than one right answer. Or none.
Attended college for a year before sticking out on my own (man that was long ago). Prior to hitting University of Minnesota at the bright age of 17 I already had mentorships, AP classes, independent study classes, and ran my own consulting business. When I arrived I couldn't believe how everyone was trying to indoctrinate everyone else into something. I eventually just didn't show up for final exams for that year and I haven't looked back.
I knew as soon as I was out of the house my attendence of services was going to plummet precipitously before finding a limit at zero, but it took several years of steadfastly not going to church to go from 'religious institutions blow' to 'religion is false'. Oh well.
Italiexo!
It's time for you all to abandon your atheist ways.
I present visual evidence of a supreme deity (FSM)
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap060822.html
;)
Those who don't have sex before marriage are also those who don't experience as much of a drop in religious connection. Those who have smoked pot experience more of a drop. Those who increase alcohol consumption during their young adulthood experience more of a drop in religious connection.
all this does is suggest that Timothy Leary was right!
seriously, though, increasing levels of drug consumption suggest increasing levels of disaffection, which could also explain less interest in participation in "group" activities (heh, other than drinking, anyway).
I wonder if the pollees would also be found to be less interested in participating on other activities considered to be "social" in nature? joining clubs, playing sports, something along those lines.
"Those who have smoked pot experience more of a drop. Those who increase alcohol consumption during their young adulthood experience more of a drop in religious connection."
This confuses me. I don't see how someone can be religious without massive amounts of drugs.
As George Carlin said "I think it's a massive, collective, psychotic chemical flashback for all the drugs smoked, swallowed, shot, and obsorbed rectally by all Americans from 1960 to 1990. Thirty years of street drugs will get you some fucking angels, my friend!"
I was over at "evolutionnews" where they said you were looking for altruism... but I couldn't post my answer to his question (which seems odd), so here it is:
I bet that if I confined the material body that nourishes the brain of Michael Egnor to a wooden plank and caused said brain to pitch rearward from it's recombent position to a GPS vector coinciding with that of a quantity of H2O contained in a metal tub, I could alter his sense of altruism plenty. I'd put money on the ability of this experiment to change Mr Egnor's idea's on altrusim within one short hour, to the extent that he would gladly exclaim that the mission of his employers is to destroy the minds of young children, and not, as they would have it, to educate. Moreover, I doubt there is much Mr Egnor would not sacrifice to stop the continued vectoring of his brain with water.
And that is how matter, and it's specific location in space, can alter ideas.
PZ wrote:
And the guys getting out of college probably aren't getting fundy Christianity, but a more liberal, obfuscated version of humanistic Christianity.
Could this represent an increasing rejection of fundamentalism?
"The table headings are looking a little hinky, too...."
I noticed that on IE6, but not on IE7.
Haven't noticed any odd italicization on either browser.
Don't hate me because I don't use FireFox.
Looks more like Jerry Garcia to me.
-- CV
PZ:
So you're looking for 4 bit answers as opposed to two bit answers.
This confuses me. I don't see how someone can be religious without massive amounts of drugs.
on the contrary, the religion effectively acts AS the drug.
as the old saying goes...
opiate of the masses, etc., etc.
the funny thing about those numbers is they don't indicate belief, just "importance" "attendance" and "affiliation"... I'm sure there's some mushiness in the answers with people mixing up meanings, but i can picture quite a number of reasons why intelligent, educated people would waste a perfectly good sunday in some craptastic church. Networking and social connection, "keeping up appearances", "for the children" (and the connected "because my parents did it"), etc
dennett had a point about the belief in belief being a good thing as a motivator for religious fealty, and i think that can definitely apply here. people go to the rain dance not because they think it'll make rain, but because that's what proper folks do, even if it's ridiculous and boring and full of mumbo jumbo. you can imagine some ancient greek wearily showing up for the special Athena gala or whatever, his formal toga's itchy, the wife won't quit yapping about the neighbor's noisy kids...oy. Smile, there's the Joneses!
I don't think those hard-drinking stoner getting-their-freaks-on folks are atheists at all, but just victims of cognitive dissonance. They went to churches that told them that those things wind them up on the outs with God, and possibly land them on that highway to hell, and so they give up. We're not talking about a level of sophisticated rejection of theology here; we're talking about wounded and possibly scared people, more of religion's tragic mistakes. This is a natural field to educate about the absurdity of religion--the devil and hell and the sinfulness of many pleasures--because they will see this as a comforting release rather than a threat. They probably believe in a god and this has demoralized them, because they are not like the smug, sanctimonious, self-satisfied believers who claim the tight affiliation with faith. Educated and thoughtful atheists will have the sophistication to bring a liberating message to these wretches. You don't have to cower from some imaginary god because you've made him unhappy; you don't have to feel embarrassed or ashamed of your humanity. Stand tall and live, for your own sake. And go back to school. You'll make more money and score better weed.
Ah ha! I didn't have it backwards!
Count it!
Well, the obvious explanation for these statistics is: those who graduated were far less religious to begin with. The survey only measures the extent to which you have lost religious belief while at college age. If you're already an atheist, there isn't much faith to lose. If you don't go to church, your church attendance isn't likely to drop much. OK, just pointing out the obvious here, haven't read all the comments so I might just be repeating stuff.
I don't think those hard-drinking stoner getting-their-freaks-on folks are atheists at all, but just victims of cognitive dissonance.
I'll have you know that some of my best friends are hard-drinking stoners, and while I certainly wouldn't say they have a intricate theological critique of the church and faith, most of them can muster "religion is just dumb." or, for the I'm-spiritual-not-religious types. "organized religion is kinda dumb."
Also, I'd imagine that drinking and doing drugs often would cut into church going time on Sunday morning.
We college professors don't contribute much to the wild parties and the deflowering of virgins, I'm afraid, and those apparently contribute to the abandonment of religion. It does suggest exciting new recruiting strategies for atheists, though!
If I score with some first-year religioso girl after getting her drunk and high, and the next day she decides she'd rather not bother going to church, I don't think I'd actually want to continue using that as a "recruiting strategy". Fun, in moderation, but I don't see that as a stable strategy.
Rather, if a woman decides she'd rather spend Saturday evening drinking wine with me, and Sunday morning sleeping in until Sunday afternoon in my bed, I'd be much more interested in discussing Philosophy (and other subjects) with her. And getting her to recommend the experience to her friends.
jtdub - OK, but did you have it right for the right reason? You're home free if you're just expected to hand in the exam, but what if PZ decides to ask for a justification? ;-)
PZ, we all knew you were evil, but having the possibility of multiple or no correct answers in a multiple choice exam question proves it conclusively.
Vin Diesel, in the movie Pitch Black, has a line he delivers to something like a black Muslim Imam after the Imam asks, "why don't you believe in God?" (or something like that) Diesel's character says something like: "but I do believe in God. I just hate the #$*! bastard."
Coathangrrr: Daniel Tosh, comedian, has a sweet line about the I'm-not-religious-I'm-spiritual thing. "I'm not honest but you're interesting!"
Speaking to college and religon: I recently spent some time with my daughter while she was walking around placing notices (for an Ecology Club) on her university's bulletin boards. What I found funny about it was that there were almost as many notices for Bible studies as there were for anything else. I recon that there must be a whole lot of ways to interpret the Bible.
My problem was that I thought that I had to choose my major, and I thought that whatever I choose would fix my whole life on a single track based on a beer-soaked hungover decision that I was probably going to make based on whether or not I could get a class schedule which let me out early on Fridays so I could go to East Grand Forks for Dollar Pitcher days with the buds at the Spud Bar. So, I took a year off.....
Stupidest thing I ever did. And I have done some stupid things. Just get the damned degree, kids, and then when you are 35 and decide that you want to do something different you don't have to go through so much extra.
The Sociology Dept. at my school was what did in my religion. Those atheists explained how the societal institution of religion is a tool of enforcing morals that favor the government at the expense of the individual.
I was an atheist long before entering college, although I attended church weekly through high school. And in college, though an atheist, I sang bass in the nearby Episcopal church choir, and, when home, sang bass soloist in the choir of my mother's church (I've always like classical liturgical music like Bach, Handel, Mozart or Buxtehude). The fun thing was the rector of my mother's parish and I became good friends and he and I used to go at it over religion, faith, reason, and belief with his knowing full well that I was an atheist. The conversations were most civil.
Now the question arises how did I become an atheist if my mother was a regular church goer. The answer lies in my dad, who was an atheist from his early teens, after experiencing a childhood in the baptist church. But unlike my mother, who tried to convince me of the need for belief especially after me father died when I was 14, he never sought to proselytize me at all. His view, as has been mine, was let your children find their own way. The upshot is that both my sister and I were atheists by the time our father died. And our children have all become atheists too, even though we rarely spoke of religion, good or bad, and took them to assorted churches while they were growing up, if for no other reason than to expose them to one of many American institution.
As a blue collar guy, I can tell you there are a lot of us who are non-believers or agnostics, and a lot of deist types. We just have learned not to make noise about religion, although it's been the source of a lot of pretty good jokes.
A lot of my fellow blue collar boomers, Vietnam vets especially, tended to be more skeptical of religion than a lot of the degreed types I've worked for and with. Of course, they were engineers, who I think are more conservative as a group anyway. I remember Flip Wilson's character, Reverend Leroy of the "Church of What's Happenin' Now" with great fondness.
Griff
Does the paper report how many college-bound students lost their religion before reaching college? It may be that with regard to atheism, college is less a mechanism that causes change than it is a filter.
At my university there is at least one Christian organization with a booth on the concourse every day, they host a lot of events with highly advertised free food and other draws. The Baptist church has been highly efficient at recruiting foreign students, they do all kinds of special programs for them and every Asian student (not Asian-American, to clarify, but foreign students)I have met attends that church.
I suspect many people may now be non-religious before going to college. All teens were pretty non-religious when I was growing up...I'm appalled at those who went back to it. I feel like I thought my way to atheism prior to college...and the message just got stronger. I imagine that my peers who became religious later, never really thought their way to atheism...they just rejected it out of rebellion, and then went back for some unfathomable reason.
I know religious groups love-bomb the lonely in an effort to recruit, but I don't think colleges in general lead to people becoming more religious. I suspect that the internet makes more people less religious even before they go to college and college may help the process--because everything about education shows that humans in all cultures make up stories that members believe on faith. Greek Mythology was the clincher for me. How can you see people making up religions all through history, and not wonder if your own is similarly made up?
articlett wrote:
Me too. Then a few years ago I got into an online debate with a Christian and I tried to use that line of evidence: "what about all these other religions, now dead, that came before? See how the idea of an afterlife evolved?" The Christian thought those mythologies and old religions actually did glimpse some partial truth. After I explained Mithraism and said it was older than Christianity they admitted that if there were no Christianity they would have been Mithrain.
They think they can intuit truth. They think they can feel when something is right and earlier people got it partly right.
Push them further and they'll admit that Christianity as they know probably isn't 100 percent right. That's why more liberal Christians can reject all the more vile stuff in the Bible. They "intuit" (and only partially reason it) that it's not right.
They think they can intuit truth.
that is so true.
er, pardon the pun.
However, it really does explain many of their rationalizations.
how many times have we all heard the canard:
evolution just doesn't make sense!
Design makes sense to them like a flat earth to someone who's never seen a globe.
Right!
Silicon microchips just don't make sense! Look at them, sitting there, all black and flat and motionless with no internal or external moving parts! Clearly they cannot possibly work!
In fact, I refuse to beli
Exactly what I proposed in a comment elsewhere! We must keep the ball rolling... or maybe balls, if deflowering virgins is what it takes. I have done my fair share before, but as they always jest on these things I could stand up for a good cause.
Oh, and wild parties sounds good too.
The Psychology courses were the most instrumental in my rejection of faith. It became clear that a lot of my spiritual experience was merely the result of my inherent cognitive biases. And the experiments by Milgram and Zimbardo made me realize that there are nasty consequences to blind obedience.
I think it also helped that my roommate was a Bio/AnthSci double major with an interest in evolution. And that my labmate (whom I had a crush on) was an atheist.
Isn't it quite possible that the correlation is in the other direction ?
Ie. Those who have more of a drop in religion connection are more likely to have sex before marriage.
Those who keep their religion are less likely to increase alcohol consumption ?
Nothing helps you experience the good life like getting rid of religion..
Another hint: my multiple choice questions can have more than one right answer. Or none.
Thank you, for showing that I'm not the only one who does this. Reliably, the one major complaint I always, always get about my classes is that I have multiple answer questions. None of them seem to have the math skillz to understand that it helps them by almost guaranteeing them partial credit if they have any clue, rather than putting all their bets on an all or nothing single answer (unless that particular question does happen to only have one right answer, which I don't do often). But questions that might have NO correct answers? I bow to the true evil of a multiple choice construction, and will now use that to threaten them with when they complain about mine. ("Oh yeah? Well I could have questions with no correct answers...bwahahahaha!")
Another hint: my multiple choice questions can have more than one right answer. Or none.-PZ
Man, you ARE an evil professor. I used to like multiple choice questions; some answers were obviously wrong, leaving at most two to choose from. You, like, expect your students to study and learn stuff? Dayum. BTW, no correct answer? Brilliant.
(I wish you had taught at my school.)
My herp professor used multiple choice questions for which one had to determine which answer(s) was/were the most inaccurate. It sure made one sit up and pay attention as the next question could require which answer(s) was/were the most accurate.
Ichthyic wrote:
Yes. And with liberal Christians it's easy to see that they're not "intuiting" truth so much as comfort.
If that were the only problem with accepting evolution it would be possible to educate them - to show how evolution does make sense and here's the evidence - the same way we educate almost everyone about the Earth being spherical and orbiting the sun. Indeed, some Christians do accept evolution.
People like Michael Egnor have much deeper problems than intuiting comfort and calling it truth. They've locked onto some vision of God and how he works which they can't shake.
However, I bet Michael Egnor and the rest of the DI would agree about older religions getting it half right.
I hope you present an option E, "God Did/Does It", for all your questions. Just to see if someone goes for it.
Exactly what I proposed in a comment elsewhere! We must keep the ball rolling... or maybe balls, if deflowering virgins is what it takes. I have done my fair share before, but as they always jest on these things I could stand up for a good cause.
Oh, and wild parties sounds good too.