Yikes!

I was wondering how many hours you were planning to hold off posting on this disaster.

Poor buggers. When I read it on the local newspaper's website here. I was wondering if you would be anywhere near.

I was at a movie, and when I got out, called Dad to complain about Kevin McHale, and he told me this happened. I was nearly running to get home and get to the STrib and WCCO et. al. websites. It's been dominating the local news here in Boston, although they have no idea who Mayor Rybak is.

I'm waiting for the 11:00 news on Channel 4, when Ken Barlow comes on.

Best wishes to those in the Twin Cities. I hope the fatalities remain near the 6 currently being reported.

(This is also going to make the wretched traffic situation in the Twin Cities worse for a couple years.)

I miss home right now.
former Minneapolitan.

I live a mile from the bridge; my neighbors across the hall tell me that they saw the collapse from their windows (we're several floors up).

In case anyone misunderstands PZ's "boom," all authorities seem to agree that there is no evidence of terrorism whatsoever. The broad consensus seems to be that it's accidental structural failure.

Certainly odd. Not a seismically active area, no prior indications of problems, doesn't look like the bridge's foundations were undermined by the river, inspected three years ago..

I'm really wondering what it will turn out to be. Substandard materials, perhaps?

-jcr

Ugh ... @collin - i am going to throw out a opinion that perhaps its poor taste to throw up a disaster on a blog the moment it happens. The amount of time PZ waited I think was appropriate. Especially since CNN and other news sites are covering it by the minute (not to mention wikipedia).

I left work early today so I was not near the bridge when it happened and everyone I know is ok. Unfortunately the first confirmed reports of deaths are coming in and things don't look good ...

I was out at a movie myself and just got back to hear the news.

The bridge in question: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-35W_Bridge

We have a tax-phobic Republican governor who has caught lots of flak for underfunding the department of transportation; I've already seen him adamant at a press conference swearing up and down that a recent examination of the bridge showed that the bridge was fine until 2020.

I have zero expertise in this matter, but I wonder if the construction project going on on the bridge (all surface stuff--concrete work, "joint work," lighting stuff, etc.) overloaded it. 35W in Minneapolis has been one big construction zone all summer; until tonight, that fact was only a nuisance. Ouch.

The bridge must have been irreducibly complex...

I don't watch TV or listen to radio, so I know it's really news when both DailyKos and Pharyngula mention an item...

I was dropping someone at the Metrodome and there were emergency vehicles from all over area heading in. Crazy.

God obviously thought the best way to call home the dead was to collapse a bridge and screw traffic in the city for a year or more.

Just saw the news in my hotel lounge, with a colleague.

Made me thing of 9/11 - not re terrorists, just re people hurt, and possibly people I know (my colleague is from St Paul.. and is busy right now calling friends to make sure they're fine). I had a couple of colleagues die in the twin towers. I also had a friend who narrowly missed death in the huge Tsunami a couple of years ago...

Disasters now make me think about the people involved in a very personal way.

My thoughts go to everyone affected.

Oh, yeah. KG threw out the first pitch at Fenway tonight (fucking McHale)

We have a tax-phobic Republican governor who has caught lots of flak for underfunding the department of transportation; I've already seen him adamant at a press conference swearing up and down that a recent examination of the bridge showed that the bridge was fine until 2020.

It reminds me of the overpass collapse in Laval, Quebec. The inquiry in that disaster found it was built badly, and with several other overpasses throughout the province in need of urgent repair. It's not the same scale, but still...

I remember at high school career fair the civil engineering rep telling us how much of North America's infrastructure is in need of repair.

Oh well. You got to hope for the best.

I'm really wondering what it will turn out to be. Substandard materials, perhaps?

Or creationist engineers?

You know you were all thinking it...

The StarTribune has posted on its website the findings from the March 2001 University of Minnesota--Twin Cities study that found the bridge was in reasonably good condition. Here 'tis (PDF): http://tinyurl.com/2a6zyy

It's really good to see y'all are alright. I've admired your work here at Pharyngula and at the SecWeb (IIDB) for quite some time PZ. You're a valuable resource in encouraging rational thought and critical analysis for the greater community and for all of us godless wonders.

One of our friends has a daughter who lives in Minneapolis and we're very worried about her right now because she hasn't been able to reach her cell. We're giving her our best words of encouragement and keeping ourselves informed through various sources of information. I just happened to come across this thread while checking reports.

These sudden tragedies are very traumatic and I hope all of the emergency responders and volunteers take good care of themselves as they provide care and comfort to survivors.

Let us know if there is any way we can help out the locals through atheist and humanistic groups in your area.

Steve Schlicht

http://humanism.meetup.com/164/

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[filthy fucking scumbag, and typical goddamned despicable Christian, rushing to exploit a tragedy for his wretched beliefs. Philos is banned.]

Philos:

1. If you actually believe that whether or not a given idea is comforting has any bearing on whether or not it is true, then what the hell are your parents doing letting you use a computer unsupervised?
2. Berating atheists for "insensitivity" is beyond ironic, given that you and you alone, out of all the commenters here, see a tragedy like this as nothing more than an opportunity to push your message, and in fact see so little wrong with this disgusting, ghoulish, sociopathic viewpoint that you interpret your opponents' failure to adopt it as a sign of weakness. You and your kind sicken me.

As always in a senseless tragedy like this, my thoughts turn to the families. Be strong, people. I do shed a tear for you.

And now, let's throw science at this problem and find out what happened. We need to know to prevent other possible failures.

Coincidentally, we had a collapse near Sacramento yesterday. Not as bad, but that is one lucky FedEx guy.

One of our friends has a daughter who lives in Minneapolis and we're very worried about her right now because she hasn't been able to reach her cell.

The cell towers have been jammed with callers - it's a wonder my sister could get through to me. That's probably why. Please keep us informed though.

I saw the smoke while crossing the 3rd Avenue Bridge (I-35 runs right next to the 10th Avenue Bridge) and saw all the cop cars and firetrucks rushing to the scene. Only when I got home did I see the extent of the damage. This is a catastrophe.

This is an interesting example of newsworthiness.

There were probably the usual distribution of traffic injuries and fatalities elsewhere in the Twin Cities area - and they're just as dead or wounded. This is just a new and different way of dying in traffic so it gets a lot of attention. But why are people worrying about their friends and family? The daily per-person likelihood of dying on the road has hardly shifted by a measurable amount; but I bet nobody will call their friends tomorrow to frantically ask "ARE YOU OK?!! NO BRIDGE FELL DOWN BUT I WAS JUST WORRIED BECAUSE THE CHANCE YOU DIED ON THE ROAD IS BASICALLY THE SAME."

I'm not trying to be nasty or anything; this is a good example of how people don't do a good job with probability in the large-scale. What is it: "Luck is just probability taken personally"? Since people do such a bad job with probability it's not surprising that some of them would feel they had been specially singled out to be destroyed or saved in this accident.

Here's a prediction - someone will attribute their survival to miraculous intervention or good fortune. You know, as if Zod made the bridge collapse and kill a few people so he could illustrate what a merciful dude he is by saving a person's life.

This is just a new and different way of dying in traffic so it gets a lot of attention.

I don't think so. I think a major thoroughfare collapsing and 50 cars going into the river merits extra attention, for goodness sake.

There is a time and a place for some things, Marcus - and right now this is neither. Sometimes it's appropriate to do a good job in the small-scale. And I don't think 7-10 people (so far) die and 40 people get hurt (so far) everyday in the Twin Cities. If you're not trying to be nasty, try a little harder not to, please.

I'm not dead, yet. However, the bridge collapse had a side effect. My mother hasn't talked to me since April when she "found out" that I was an atheist. Today, she called franticly to make sure I was alright. I may have been on the bridge coming home from work, if I hadn't been at home sick. Should I be grateful for the sausage, egg, and cheese biscuit breakfast sandwich which made me ill?

marcus ranum -- you may be exactly and mathematically correct that a tragedy such as this one does not really change the normal road-death toll in an urban area... but you miss the point entirely.

We're people. that means that we're fundamentally tribal. and that means that when we see something happening - in a significant way - to members of our tribe we're going to be concerned.

any other response is essentially inhuman and heartless (at least as far as THIS tribe of humans is concerned).

Humans are emotional, Marcus, and "probability assessments" are most often the concerns of arm chair observers.

Certain moments involving unusual events reveal interest and personal reflection on mortality. In turn, empathy becomes heavily involved for those we may not know other than by our shared human experience.

As a criminal investigator specializing in violent crimes and often involved in tragic events I know firsthand that people internalize their perspective and reach out for commonality, care and comfort.

Over indulgence in emotionless critique may be your way of coping with this event as well, if you really think about it...and so I encourage you to examine how you would feel toward those you know and love personally and those you just observe in "news" stories.

These are real people, just as those involved in lesser recognized events you suggest, and none of them (in my view) should be objectified as "traffic injuries" no matter how much the press seems to promote that concept.

Just because this thread is about this particular event doesn't mean that people don't recognize other profoundly risky behavior that we all engage in on a daily basis, in any event.

I know that I simply discovered this forum while seeking knowledge which is a common personality trait regardless of the events that occur and then found a familiar "face" to share a moment of life.

Thanks for the insight regarding the towers, Kristine, it was a suggested possibility offered. During the aftermath of Katrina we certainly had no real way of getting phone service out either, however, texting was available within a day or so for some of my co-workers.

We haven't heard back from our friend as of yet tonight and she isn't answering either now, so I will have to post more tomorrow.

Take care everyone,

Steve

> I think a major thoroughfare collapsing and 50 cars
>going into the river merits extra attention, for
>goodness sake.

Of course it does!!!

>And I don't think 7-10 people (so far) die and 40
>people get hurt (so far) everyday in the Twin Cities.

Take the total population of the Twin Cities area and divide it by the number of deaths that happen on an average day. Then add 10 and do the division again. We're still talking lottery probabilities. Don't you find it interesting how people completely overreact? I realized that was what was happening when I thought (briefly) of calling my cousin - who lives in Mendota Hts - just on principle.

>If you're not trying to be nasty, try a little
>harder not to, please.

Let's try it the other way. If I'm ever trying to be nasty, you can rest assured that it will be unmistakable. Trust me.

>We're people. that means that we're fundamentally tribal.
>and that means that when we see something happening - in
>a significant way - to members of our tribe we're going
>to be concerned.

YES! THAT WAS EXACTLY MY POINT!!!

Because we're so wrapped up in our local perceptions and our small-scale understanding of probability, we look at this kind of thing and completely mis-estimate its importance. Can't you see how that same kind of mistake is the kind of mistake that leads people to leap to conclusions like: "I must be somehow important" or "this is divine will" or "we are the chosen tribe"?

I wasn't trying to be insensitive about this - it's a tragedy. For the people who died and got hurt and their families. For all of the other 1,000,000 people who live in the area, it's a miracle that they were saved by God. Allah be praised!

Some people's reactions to a disaster is to flap their arms and wring their hands; I engage my brain. You deal with it however suits you, OK?

Two of my closest friends who live in Minny just missed this by about ten minutes because they took an unplanned detour. Scary. When I talked to them, though, they told me that all of their friends and family in Chicago were calling to check on them. Nice, no?

If there's a bright side, it's that the construction going on had the road restricted to one lane in each direction, down from four each way, I believe. Could have been 4x worse.

Just went over that bridge this morning.

Kristine, PZ, even though I only know you virtually, I'm very relieved to see you posting. You're the only ones I know who might have been anywhere near it, and I'm glad you weren't.

I'm sorry for the people who lost loved ones in the collapse, and I hope that it doesn't get any worse than it already is known to be.

9 confirmed dead as of 12:15 central (from the STrib).

I know it's irrational, but don't really care. Mpls is still home to me, and my city is hurting tonight.

thanks for disemvoweling philos....he was pretty vile.

Marcus -- your missing the point...

We're all appalled at tragedy - small and large scale.

in a probabalistic sense, large scale really isn't that much larger in most cases... but that deoan;t mean we need to be totally insensitive and unfeeling.

this event and it's aftermath has absolutely nothing to do with god, and everything to do with people.

We *should* care.

It's appalling that we have been so generally desensitized to this kind of thing that we're less affected by the everyday smaller scale tragedies that we see on every news broadcast.

Please -- if you can't refrain from your insensitive comments - please at least wait a while before commenting again.

sorry: you're... doesn't ... probabilistic (oops - not thinking very well)

The scary thing is that I crossed that bridge almost everyday to get to work. On a typical Wednesday, I am usually trying to get across the river at about 6:00 pm.

(Granted, I prefer to avoid the traffic by taking the arched bridge that runs parallel to 35W.)

I wasn't there today because my car wouldn't start this morning. The battery needed to be replaced and it took the entire morning to get it fixed. I decided that it wasn't worth driving in to work for such a short day.

Sometimes taking a day off can save your life.

Uh, last I looked at the numbers, there were 7 confirmed dead, 61 injured and 20 missing (and, by this time, I have a hard time imagining how that could mean anything but 27 total dead).

You're obviously correct that 88 people out of a metro area of three million is something like "lottery odds," but:

(1) 88 represents a huge uptick in "the usual distribution of traffic injuries and fatalities" in the Cities, given that traffic fatalities in the metro area (see http://tinyurl.com/2jc2q9 ) average about 0.6 per day.

(2) Some of us use(d) that bridge 10-12 times a week (and our friends and relatives know it), which represents a rather large number of "lottery tickets" for us. If I hadn't worked a little late this evening, the grocery run I had planned would unquestionably have put me on that bridge, and it could possibly have been (with far better than lottery odds) at 6:09 P.M. Eek....

Underinvestment in infrastructure is a national problem. From the American Society of Civil Engineers,

http://www.asce.org/reportcard/2005/index.cfm

"ASCE estimates that $1.6 trillion is needed over a five-year period to bring the nation's infrastructure to a good condition. Establishing a long-term development and maintenance plan must become a national priority. But in the short term, small steps can be taken by the 110th Congress, as well as state legislatures and local communities, to improve our nation's failing infrastructure."

But you know, tax cuts for the rich and 12 billion per month for the war are more important to our glorious leaders.

So the Twins game went on and how did it start? With "a moment of prayer". Just what could they be praying about? What's done is done. They had better vote some money for infrastructure repair and renovation.

As to group disasters, Marcus has a point. Every time there is a plane crash, it gets extensive coverage. Yet air travel is one of the safest means. With about 40,000+ traffic deaths per year--100+ per day--you have the equivalent of a plane crash every two days. They only get a couple lines in the press or a couple seconds on the news.

"There wasn't any obvious cause, just boom, it fell apart" - then it must have been God, right? Clearly everyone on the bridge was a Godless sinner...

;)

(seriously, though - it's tragic...)

The daily per-person likelihood of dying on the road has hardly shifted by a measurable amount ...

The total US auto-related fatality rate is about 3000 per month. That's about 1 in 3,000,000 per day. Minneapolis-St. Paul is about 3 million people. So if your perspective is a day in twin cities, 10 people dead on the bridge is 10 times the daily auto-related fatality rate. That's a significant change. If you further narrow your perspective to those who use the bridge more than once a week, it's a much larger change. On the other hand, if you broaden your perspective to the whole US, it's a smaller change, but at 10% of the daily auto-related fatality rate, it is still significant. Note that many of those responding with concern know, or think they know, someone who lives near or in twin cities. I agree that in general most responses to news-reported tragedies are insane in proportion to actual risks. But I'm doubtful that this is a good example of that problem.

Tony: berating a security geek like Marcus for thinking like a security geek is... peculiar, to say the least. *Someone* has to think clearly when things go wrong: we can't all be going around thinking only of the local all the time. Fundamentally he's right: it's a small-scale disaster, even if it is still a disaster.

Fast-forward 500 years. In that timespan the population of the earth will die several times (um, not the same people). That pretty much every bridge will also suffer some degree of collapse or major structural failure over that sort of timespan, killing thousands, becomes less significant. Now divide it by 500 again. Why's it more significant now?

Excessive focus on the local is dangerous. If we really care about avoiding locally-dangerous things, the first thing we should do is ban childbirth...

I've really gone back and forth as to weather posting this was appropriate. But since the discussion seems to have moved beyond the specific to the meta, a little part of me that thinks the truth is important feels compelled-

Berating atheists for "insensitivity" is beyond ironic, given that you and you alone, out of all the commenters here, see a tragedy like this as nothing more than an opportunity to push your message

While from what I can piece together from the disemvowled post, what Philos was putting out was most likely the same vile crap D'sousa tried to float regarding the Virgina Tech murders, and admittedly worthy of the treatment it received, it should be noted that your assessment here is incorrect.

He was neither the first nor the only to attempt to hijack this tragedy into some flimsy claim of support for an ideological position. He was beaten to the punch in the game of co-opting the personal misery of others into empty, offensive debate points, by both (the as of yet un-disemvowled and unbanned) John Danley, in comment #10:

The bridge must have been irreducibly complex...

and Hexxanhammer, in post #12:

God obviously thought the best way to call home the dead was to collapse a bridge and screw traffic in the city for a year or more.

Others have followed suit.

I know its comforting to think only "goddamn typical despicable christians" are capable of such objectionable tactics, but it turns out that insensitivity and ghoulishness are non-denominational.

And obviously, that whole mote/log thing is still a problem, 2000 years after that guy claiming to be god's kid was nice enough to point it out.

Let us know if there is any way we can help out the locals through atheist and humanistic groups in your area.

Steve Schlicht

http://humanism.meetup.com/164/

I just wanted to say thank you for posting the link, and I admire your ability inject something helpful and constructive into the discussion. This is exactly the sort of thing all atheists should strive for, no matter how much it might chafe against our normal sense of rugged individualism. If only more of us could organize ourselves into positive demonstrations of our (non)beliefs, as opposed to merely being enchanted with our wonderful propensity for skepticism and deconstruction, we might actually make in-roads toward acceptance.

Hell, we might even get a nodding acceptance of the fact that it might just be possible that we could possibly, on the odd occasion, here and there, possess something approaching a morals, ethics, and empathy.

Probably not, but who knows? ;)

Cynically speaking, if the US wasn't quite so full of rapture-obsessed Christians, it might be politically possible to put enough investment into public infrastructure to make sure that this kind of thing doesn't happen.

As things stand, however, the christonuts would much rather divert public money into fanning the fires of the middle east in the hopes of bringing jeezus back rather than spending on such evil atheistic things as bridges and roads.

As things stand, however, the christonuts would much rather divert public money into fanning the fires of the middle east in the hopes of bringing jeezus back rather than spending on such evil atheistic things as bridges and roads.

Well, thats a bit simplistic.

Sure millennialism is important for some. But even if that doesn't play out, there's still that whole thing about achieving de-facto empire that makes achieving a stranglehold on the oil fields of the middle east so very appealing. Plus, there's that huge chip Viet Nam left on the national shoulder. It would really be great to get rid of that. And, we get to roll back all those pesky "reforms" that those pinko-commies got pushed through after the completely outrageous attacks against the Nixon administration.

See, its a multi-pronged approach...

(Jeff, McHale is the "embedded Celtic". It's a secret, though.)

Best wishes to the folk of Minneapolis. Kristine is right, it's a catastrophe. Heck, I thought it was a catstrophe when one woman was crushed by a ceiling tile in one of the new artery tunnels in Boston last year... Sure, sure, in the big picture it meant nothing (and the ceilings got fixed) but it's all relative. To her family, it was HUGE, and the implications were disturbing to people throughout the region.

I think we're allowed to care about people who are directly affected by events like this - even if we don't know them. I think we're allowed to worry about loved ones who might have been directly affected, regardless of the odds. When there's a tragedy like this, the odds rise above zero, and NOBODY IS EXEMPT.

Should I be grateful for the sausage, egg, and cheese biscuit breakfast sandwich which made me ill?

I don't know, but a friend of mine escaped being in the WTC when it got hit by a plane because the subway he was riding in was delayed due to construction and New Yorkers' habit of holding the doors and trying to cram the entire city into one subway car. I was grateful for both things that day. The randomness of it is scary--a few minor changes in the day and he'd be dead--but what can you do? No one and nothing is entirely safe.

Speaking of which, I seem to remember after the WTC attacks, Minnesotans sent aid to NYC to help those who were displaced or hurt by the attacks. Is there a need and mechanism to return the favor?

Rieux @ # 9, as a bridge engineer, I'm particuarly saddened to hear of this incident, & think of all the misery it's caused. You said, "I wonder if the construction project going on on the bridge (all surface stuff--concrete work, "joint work," lighting stuff, etc.) overloaded it."

I used to design to the AASHTO bridge code that was in use about the time this bridge was designed. There was a very simple model for traffic loading. However, the engineer involved with the repairs should have checked that loading from construction vehicles would not cause overstress, let alone failure. Was sufficient funding provided to carry this out? In competetive tendering situations - who knows? But I imagine that the State Highway Authority would have rules on this.

There can be many causes to a failure such as this. A forensic investigation will, perhaps, diagnose the cause or causes.

I am glad that one nut was disemvoweled but the ghoulishness was not restricted to only that guy in the comments. There is absolutely no question that this is a significant disaster and it is not at all comparable to background traffic accidents in Minneapolis. Like someone said, the death toll may reach up to the dozens when it's all over.

As if that isn't enough, Bridge disasters usually occur for obvious reasons like floating debris from floods, a ship or train crash (or a gasoline truck crash & fire like we had in Oakland in May), earthquakes, winds, overload etc. To have a regularly-inspected bridge just crash down into the river, completely out of the blue, with a lower than average load (half the lanes were closed for construction) is extremely shocking and probably indicates that multiple severe screwups happened somewhere along the line. Apparently the last time something like this happened in the U.S. was the Silver Bridge in 1967.

Speaking of which, I seem to remember after the WTC attacks, Minnesotans sent aid to NYC to help those who were displaced or hurt by the attacks. Is there a need and mechanism to return the favor?

The emergency services people on the TV were directing everyone to the American Red Cross Twin Cities Chapter website:
http://www.redcrosstc.org/

I was just over that bit of bridge 2 1/2 weeks ago during a visit to Minneapolis. Now if I was a religious type I would praise gawd for looking out for me...blah blah blah. I wonder how many people will say thier survival is a miracle or due to their guardian angel? This just shows how tenuous our life can be and how we are all at the mercy of plain old happenstance. Of course science will be used to determine the cause. There will be the head cases who ala Pat Robertson who will say that this is another sign of gawd's anger over abortion, homosexuality, etc.

Heya!

Just a quick word about communications during times of trouble. I know this is probably old news to many, and the problem concerning this particular incident has been solved already, but anyhow, for the benefit of the next time something like this happens:

If you need to contact someone using a cell phone, don't call! Instead, send an SMS (text message, or whatever it's called on that side of the Atlantic..) Even when the network is jammed with too many callers, an SMS (which uses up a significantly smaller amount of the data stream) has good chances of getting through, at least after a short(ish) delay. It may not be real time communication, but it's much better nothing. When disaster strikes it's also very important to avoid unnecessary load to the communications network, these things have never been built to withstand that kind of enormous amount of extra traffic and the public authorities and other aid workers need to be able to communicate without the added difficulty of dealing with a jammed phone network.

This is a lesson I have learned many times over, be it the aftermath of just some rock concert ("I'm right next to the gates, where are you..!?"*zillion doing an admirable job of killing all the cell phones in the area..) or the Tsunami a few years back.

Uriel:

You're right that those comments are rather tasteless and insensitive, but between their tone and, perhaps more importantly, their length, I interpreted them more as gallows humor rather than a serious attempt to use the disaster as ammunition the way philos was. The merits of this interpretation can, perhaps, be debated...

Given the unusual nature of the collapse, it's no surprise authority figures feel the need to quash terrorism rumors.

The only reason I'm ignoring that possibility as a scenario is that I can't imagine an intervention that could have caused the bridge to fail in that particular way.

Whatever the cause, something is extremely weird in MN.

John Roberts, this morning on CNN:

In addressing the fact that all children on the school bus survived:

"I guess somebody was looking over their shoulders."

Hey John: I guess nobody was looking over those who didn't survive. Eh?

A poster over at crooks&liars gave the following link on the state of America's bridges. All this more or less started with Reaganomics.

http://www.bts.gov/publications/state_transportation_statistics/state_t…

155,000 bridges, or 26% of American bridges are substandard.

Rethuglicans, free-marketers kill.

Breaking News!

The dumbass Archdiocese of St. Paul is going to hold a "Prayer Service". Listen up bishop, why did your god not prevent the bridge collapse in the first place?

A prayer has even less real effect than a fart.

Yow. Over 1/2 of bridges in DC, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island are substandard. That's impressive. Oddly enough, Minnesota had (at least as of 2005) a relatively low number of substandard bridges. Well, I suppose it has one fewer now.

Terrible terrible tragedy. I've been over that bridge on a number of occasions myself. That particular bridge seems to have been woefully under-reinforced, with the main span supported on steel feet at four points on narrow concrete pylons. There were reports that it was to undergo inspection this fall, but other reports suggested there were 18 maintenance workers on site at the time of the collapse...

An AP report related the tale of a family visiting from Houston Texas who were on it during the collapse. Their rented car landed atop another smaller car. Said the driver: "There were a bunch of people right around there helping everyone. Angels is what I call them."

Groan. Ok, if one insists. But the REAL kind. The kind that ACTUALLY exists and ACTUALLY helps. They are also called "people". They are quite wingless, but they DO help.

One wonders how the occupant(s) of the car they landed on fared (no reports)...and whether the good folks from Texas praise a god that arranges for their good fortune at having survived by landing on another car, ala, "There, but for the Grace of God, go I".

Those who perish never get a chance to brag about how God Personally Favors them.

Those who perish never get a chance to brag about how God Personally Favors them.

Then again, if we're all wrong and there is an afterlife, a heaven even, maybe those who perished are now in Valhalla giggling at the foolishness of the poor folks who think that survival is a sign of god's favor. I mean, if there is a fun afterlife, aren't those who get there first the ones who are best off?

Do you mean to pretend that bridges are built by any semblance of the free market? Telll us another one, bernarda... that was funny.

Are you particularly dense speedwell? The problem is that the free-marketers always demand less tax. Oh, I am sure that the liberedartians know exactly how to take care of the situation.

Until my wife took a new job this week in Saint Paul, she and I traveled over that bridge 2 to 3 times a day, often around the time of day the bridge collapsed. What can I say, it's just terrible. Hard to imagine this kind of destruction every day, like happens in Iraq.

Ouch that's bad.

This is from wcco.com's coverage:

At least 20 religious leaders said they were headed to the Holiday Inn Metrodome where families of victims met late Wednesday night.

Again, the religious prey upon the week, needy, distraught, etc. Maybe someday we'll see reports of secular government coming in with professional counselors and advisers instead of this type of crap. Le sigh.

Do you mean to pretend that bridges are built by any semblance of the free market? Telll us another one, bernarda... that was funny.

Yes, actually. Nearly every contract for public work built nowadays is given to the lowest bidder, which gives construction companies a very strong temptation to cut corners to minimize the bid price and maximize their profit.

There's a video of the collapse up on youtube now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2dK1H_HoTs

It looks the deck failed on the right side of the screen. But then again some of the other pictures show the piers sheared off and sitting at a funny angle. It will be interesting to see the forensic report on this one.

I believe that there was a period in the USA & Canada when competetive tendering on total design fee was used to select the bridge designer. It was previously the case that the Engineer's fee was a percentage of the construction cost, or an hourly rate.

Now competetive tendering on total design fee was really foolish. In at least some states, it was eventually banned. I'm no longer a bridge engineer, so I don't know the situation for bridge design nowadays, but it still happens in the UK for design of structures for buildings.

Okay, the client gets a cheap design, but is it a good design? Does it cost more to build, will the structure be as serviceable or aesthetic, & what about its durability, etc? As design is only a few percent of total cost, it's a crazy situation that doesn't serve clients well. And that's what the Office for Fair Trading in the UK demands. Crazy!

Dianne says, "I mean, if there is a fun afterlife, aren't those who get there first the ones who are best off?"

Why, then, isn't the whole of creation already there? Permanently? Why bother with the "existence' stuff at all, and put us fragile organisms through such tribulation...unless the Big Guy just likes to see suffering? People who lose their loved ones DO suffer horribly, you know. They can't help it, no matter how deluded they are with nonsense afterlife equivocations. What kind of an asshole, living or dead, would giggle over them?

UPDATE: Our good friend was finally able to get through to her daughter a little bit after midnight. Turns out she had received a message that cell phone service was shut down for calls for awhile due to the emergency. She routinely drives across the bridge and heard about the collapse before getting in her car to head home.

We are very relieved that she is safe and now our concentration has turned toward ways to help others in the area. I'm already scheduled for a blood donation tomorrow for a very ill co-worker/friend of mine, however, the Twin Cities Red Cross will be needing monetary assistance so we'll do what we can to help them out in that way.

It is my hope that an extensive forensic examination of the facts and circumstances will result in some in depth answers and provide ways to improve these much needed structures.

Take care everyone and thanks for being out there,

Steve

Religious counselors are heading to the area for those who choose their assistance.

The Twin Cities Red Cross already has secular mental health counselors there to care and provide comfort for those who are also in need.

http://www.redcrosstc.org/index.cfm

On the front lines of any disaster, basic human compassion is required and people in our society have an assortment of world views and perspectives that need to be handled on a case by case basis.

Regardless of whether or not I agree with the tenets and/or claims of someone's "beliefs", it is imperative that we actually engage our commonality as human beings at this time.

My .02 for this day.

Steve

Steve,

Glad to hear your friend's daughter is safe. Got an email from my sister this morning that all her friends are safe too (she's glad she was house sitting in the area last week instead of this).

Best wishes all.

bernarda says, "Oh, I am sure that the liberedartians know exactly how to take care of the situation."

Yeah, well, if the chronically paranoid conservative contingent in this country paid half as much attention to JUST the dilapidated state of this country's infrastructure as they do to the threat posed by terriers, they'd save many many more American lives.

I heard on NPR this morning that this was a simple arche bridge and the span was 450 feet. And normal daily traffic is 220,000 across it.

During rush hour there was single lane traffic, moving slowly while pavers are there sounds like a bad idea.

I was born in and lived in Minneapolis until 1981 when want to Oklahome for job related reasons. I now live in Europe. I just want to say my thoughts go to the familise of those who died and or are injured I hope the toll does not get to much higher in the days to come

I know they had finished one lane of resurfacing two or three weeks ago, and were about done on a second. I do remember 6 weeks ago, seeing work being done under the bridge deck. Who knows if any structure work was being done, or if something was nudged out of place. If you are looking south, and the lanes are labeled as so:
ABCD
Lanes B and D were being used, with A almost complete. Before lane D was resurfaced, traffic was concentrated in the center lanes. Perhaps the weight distribution had a role to play?

[filthy fucking scumbag, and typical goddamned despicable Christian, rushing to exploit a tragedy for his wretched beliefs. Philos is banned.]

You mean rushing to exploit a tragedy for one's wretched beliefs like this?

God obviously thought the best way to call home the dead was to collapse a bridge and screw traffic in the city for a year or more.

Posted by: Hexxenhammer | August 1, 2007 10:59 PM

The bridge must have been irreducibly complex...

Posted by: John Danley | August 1, 2007 10:56 PM

Actually, it was. I just read that a recent engineer's report found that the bridge was non-redundant. This means that if one part fails, the whole bridge fails.

We have a tax-phobic Republican governor who has caught lots of flak for underfunding the department of transportation

Posted by: Rieux | August 1, 2007 10:51 PM

We also have a Democrat dominated legislature. Where were they?

Cynically speaking, if the US wasn't quite so full of rapture-obsessed Christians, it might be politically possible to put enough investment into public infrastructure to make sure that this kind of thing doesn't happen.

As things stand, however, the christonuts would much rather divert public money into fanning the fires of the middle east in the hopes of bringing jeezus back rather than spending on such evil atheistic things as bridges and roads.
Posted by: BLOB[11] | August 2, 2007 03:57 AM

And here I thought I wouldn't ever see any sort of blame that was more stupid than what's been posted at DailyKos and Democrat Underground. I stand corrected.

Single car accidents are predictable in a way -- we know every time we get in a vehicle, we could be injured on the road. We see drivers behaving dangerously, and we watch for them and feel we have some control. Most of us do what we have to do to not injure ourselves or others, and feel that we would have the sense not to ride bumpers on the interstate and could have avoided the seven-car pileup reported on the news, that we could have controlled that situation. The horror comes from having no control over a situation, sensing how it would feel for a bridge to collapse, or a jet to crash, or for a gunman to attack your child's school -- knowing that there is no way to protect yourself and your family from those events and still live a normal life. When you find out there's an underlying problem that could bring it home, it's that much worse. I don't worry about terrorists in my small town, but shootings on the local university campus? -- sure. Collapsing bridges in the state of Alabama? You bet. The commenters who are saying they could have been there if they weren't sick or working late are probably concerned about narrowly avoiding a situation they couldn't control; they probably still drove their vehicles that day, knowing that they might get in an accident. Armchair analysis, no sources to quote.

Thank you, RavenT. Steve, I'm glad to hear the good news.

Naturally I wish other families dealing with other fatalities in unrelated events well, too. And I'm aware that at least 60,000 children in the world starve to death each day, etc.

"Context" is a series of concentric shells around oneself - for each one of us - and that's only natural. It's natural too to withdraw into a smaller one for a while, as long as it's only for a while - and as long as one doesn't mistake one's own small shell for "the big picture" and impose it upon others in different circumstances than oneself. Okay, I'm done.

This incident presented the familiar problem of how to respond to well-meaning religious folks. For example, I received this email from a colleague:

"I am so shocked and saddened by the terrible bridge collapse in Minneapolis. I pray that none of you were affected directly by this tragedy and that you, your families and friends are all safe.

"God love each and everyone in your wonderful towns! I will keep all of you in my prayers."

It would hardly do to answer this attempt at kindness with the response it deserves (how is God's love compatible with a bus full of terrified and injured children, say?). So I tried this, shifting the focus where it plainly belongs--on humans:

"Your kind thoughts are appreciated. In the face of such a senseless and random event, I took the most comfort from the number of brave people who selflessly risked their lives to save strangers. It can be easy to forget, with so much bad news about people coming at us every day, just how fundamentally decent, courageous, and empathetic many of us can be when the situation calls for it. It was quite moving.

Thanks again...for your kindness."

DSM must be this post's resident troll.

DSM:

We also have a Democrat dominated legislature. Where were they?

First, the DFL has only had control of both houses of the legislature since the '06 elections.

Second, in the short time since they took control, said DFL majority passed a big transportation-infrastructure funding bill this session. Governor Pawlenty vetoed it. An override attempt failed because not enough Republican legislatures were willing to cross the governor.

So that's where the Democratic legislature was--trying to fix the infrastructure problem and being shot down by the governor. Any other questions?

Typo: Republican legislators, not legislatures.

Footage of the collapse is online now:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1ab_1186054443&p=1

DSM must be this post's resident troll.

Posted by: Steve_C | August 2, 2007 11:51 AM

Seems the comments for this post are full of trolls. It's just that some are not accused of being trolls when they obviously are because they happen to agree with your beliefs.

Wow a troll that doesn't know what he is... lack of self awareness. Interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_blogging_terms#T
TROLL
A commenter whose sole purpose is to attack the views expressed on a blog and incite a flamewar, for example, a liberal going to a conservative blog, or vice versa. The word trolling means literally 'to fish', ie. when the troll fishes for a clashback from the blog writer and/or pro commenters. Many trolls will leave their remarks on multiple posts and continue to visit the blog, sparking spirited debate amongst the blog's regular readers. Trolls' verbosity can range from eloquent to crass, although most trolls probably fall into the latter category. Originally, trolling only meant the custom where someone was commenting just to get a flamewar going, by using exaggarated points of view not held by themselves.

Tony writes:
>Please -- if you can't refrain from your insensitive
>comments - please at least wait a while before
>commenting again.

Excuse me? I don't believe my comments were "insensitive" - they merely didn't live up to your expectations.

Insensitive would have been if I'd made some comment to the effect that "it's the lord's work" or some rubbish other than that it's a disaster and it's a good thing that the death toll was relatively small. Furthermore, my immediate reaction (like most of ours, I suspect!) was to think my my relatives in the area and the fact that I personally drove over that bridge only 2 months ago. In fact, my reaction was - "typical" - if I may say. But then I tried to look at the problem rationally and realized that the "typical" reaction reveals a great deal about how we think about random bad things.

The way we react to random bad things (they're more important if we have members of our extended tribe potentially involved, or they are within our extended personal territory) probably reveals a great deal about how primitive tribes contextualized random bad things as personal and therefore (possibly) the choice of diety. When I pointed this out, I wasn't trying to be "insensitive" for crying out loud! Every death and injury is 100% important to those who die and their immediate families - in fact, I could argue that it's "insensitive" that people are getting so upset over these small deaths and, well, I don't see anyone here crying over the hundreds who died in other traffic-related deaths, elsewhere, yesterday.

The point of my posting was that it's interesting how people take an accident like this personally, if it happens in an area where they have relatives or a personal connection. Several of you have even chosen to help argue my point by Emailing me offline with kind remarks to the effect that they hope I never have something happen to me and feel the need for help/support and don't get it. Sheesh! People, put your thinking caps on for just a second, will you?

Wow a troll that doesn't know what he is... lack of self awareness. Interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_blogging_terms#T
TROLL

The great WIKIPEDIA has spoken. May it ever be praised.

Please. That definition is so completely vague that anyone with a differing viewpoint could be called a troll. Of course, that's exactly what you want: the stifling of any and all opposing viewpoints. You prefer an echo chamber where you can all pat each other on the backs for how smart and witty you think you are. Hey, if that's what you want, fine by me, but at least be honest with yourselves about it.

The death toll, as is almost inevitable in such cases, is now expected to be as much as 30. (That many 'missing' reports, with many of those apparently due to drowning in submerged vehicles).

Terrible.

Meant to say that its typical in such catastrophies to see the death toll rising substantially from initial reports...

Okay doke, Marcus, shhhh, okay. ;-) Essentially rational argument, with which I don't disagree except for the timing and subject, over-argued to the point of emotionality, and thoroughly understood. You and I are cool. My offer of empathy if you were in similar circumstances was genuine. I did not mean to give you the impression of a "tit for tat," and I'm sorry you got that impression. Calm yourself, if you would appeal to people's rationality.

I wish to see this spectacular commenting at another time, on a more worthy subject, so that I can admire it. Now, peace.

So that's where the Democratic legislature was--trying to fix the infrastructure problem and being shot down by the governor. Any other questions?

Posted by: Rieux | August 2, 2007 11:56 AM

The Democrat legislature had no idea about the bridge:

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/010705.php

"State legislators expressed surprise at that news. Rep. Melissa Hortman (DFL-Brooklyn Park) noted that Minnesota's Department of Transportation (MnDOT) never mentioned that to the state legislature. If MnDOT knew of a poor rating on this bridge, they apparently never considered it a high enough priority to ask for special funding for repairs."

And who, pray tell, is in charge of MnDOT?

Here's a hint: he's not in the legislative branch.

Nick Coleman lays it out pretty well today, I think.

My thoughts and profound sympathies go out to all who have/are suffering in this tragedy.
In California bridges fail because of earthquakes. In Washington bridges fail because of wind and wave action. In other places because of impact.

Sometimes fire or overloading are determined to be directly responsible.
I would venture a guess that none of these are responsible here. Given the harsh Minnesota winters it could be just one too many molecules of steel had converted to iron oxide over time. And that this problem was not identified since rust can grow from just a pinhole in the paint, turning the steel underneath to a necrotic mass of weakened rust without showing external symptoms. Decubitis or bedsores in humans come to mind.
Inspections are supposed to look for this, but without redundancy built into the bridge system (as has been posited) catastrophic failure can occur prior to the identification of the problem. How many bridges across the US of similar design are now in a similar state?
The weaknesses in our national and state infrastructure have long been identified. Maintenance and repair have also as long been deferred. We have had other priorities.

Nothing will change until we quit trying to grow and maintain the American Imperium and instead maintain and repair the American Republic. I dislike injecting politics into this tragedy, but it cannot be avoided. Bridges that score as 'seriously deficient' need to be fixed. It takes political will to prioritize infrastructure maintenance. The neo-cons want to strangle government in a bathtub even though its government policies (and infrastructure) that made them rich in the first place. I am continually flabbergasted by their idiocy. Enough of my rant. I wish you all well, and my sympathies to all affected.

Ken

And who, pray tell, is in charge of MnDOT?

Here's a hint: he's not in the legislative branch.

Posted by: Rieux | August 2, 2007 12:57 PM

SHE is Lt. Gov. Carol Molnau, but I seriously doubt she will be to blame for any of this. People report to her and she reports to the governor. If people don't report to her, she has nothing to give to the governor.

On the front lines of any disaster, basic human compassion is required and people in our society have an assortment of world views and perspectives that need to be handled on a case by case basis.

Regardless of whether or not I agree with the tenets and/or claims of someone's "beliefs", it is imperative that we actually engage our commonality as human beings at this time.

Hear, hear. But some people seem to go out of their way to be nasty.

I just got an email from my folks that my brother in the twin cities is okay. I kinda figured, since he's only a few blocks from where he works, and his hours aren't 'normal' anyways, but it's good to know all the same. People aren't always routine.

Here's one for DSM:

*Ahem*

Suck my balls.

That is true, Nick.

Over the years I have found that the value of actually learning from our tendencies to appear abrupt, abrasive, emotionless and "harsh" or "angry" as atheists comes from recognizing times when we are truly *overly* observant/critical of the claims of the religious, while less so for those of like-mind who are expressing their humanity in works during these times of need.

Do some go out of their way to find keywords such as "prayers", "God", "Miracles", etc., while ignoring the abundance of secular responses and valiant efforts in the process?

I think that is a very common tendency of some atheists, myself included.

It does promote the *appearance* of a valid argument from theists to point at such responses in order to encourage others to believe that we are always this way, have nothing else to offer and are cynical, bitter misanthropes.

Of course, nothing is further from the truth...but, when we behave this way too much or too often, it *can* be counterproductive when theists "quote mine" our responses.

It may be that atheists are fully justified as well and need such expressions as a form of catharsis. Perhaps when we do become analytical of tragedy and mock other's coping mechanisms we are only reflecting much of our own emotional attachments due to those abuses we have received in our own lives from religious fundamentalists.

The important notion is to find a balance and to humanize everyone involved and not make them out to be "only" democrats, republicans, theists or atheists.

We're people and we should seek common ground on that foundation.

Hey, that's another .02, I can't afford too much more for today.

Be good, y'all.

Steve

Steve just summed it up.

Look at the tilt on the concrete pier!
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44035000/jpg/_44035558_aaron_beck…

A Jesus Junky partisan rant is rightfully disemvoweled and the commenter banned with the following comment.

... rushing to exploit a tragedy for his wretched beliefs.

Now peruse this partisan rant.

A poster over at crooks&liars gave the following link on the state of America's bridges. All this more or less started with Reaganomics. (link removed) Rethuglicans, free-marketers kill.

How is this different? Is there a fundamental difference between the rants other than the exploitation of tragedy in post #2 supports the prevailing political winds here?

All things considered, the responses posted here are a refreshing change from those typically found after a disaster. God God God. Pray. Jesus. God God. Pray Pray Jesus. Jesus pray God God. I am an aviation buff, and after the deaths at OshKosh and Dayton, I have had more than my fill of pious public declarations that one is beseeching the invisible sky daddy. Not quite sure what all they are beseeching him for. Please make the victims less dead? Thank you for not untimely killing more of us mortals?

Yes Steve, thanks. Human empathy for human misery; human admiration for human heroism--everything else on hold for now. The last thing I would wish for is liberal atheist unseemliness.

Well, #107, seeing as how Starve* & Borrow** Conservatism has strained our infrastructure to the breaking point*** over the past thirty years, yeah, it may be safe to lay the blame on them when our infrastructure falls apart and kills people.

*Starve the domestic arms of government so they can't make needed inspections, repairs, and replacements to our infrastructure.

**Borrow trillions from China to pay for more war toys.

***Infrastructure they willingly used to get rich rich rich, and then refused to take care of it for others.

A commenter whose sole purpose is to attack the views expressed on a blog and incite a flamewar, for example, a liberal going to a conservative blog, or vice versa.

It follows that if a person doesn't want to start a flamewar, they're not a troll. More importantly, if they have even one additional reason for posting besides starting a flamewar, they're not a troll either.

SHE is Lt. Gov. Carol Molnau, but I seriously doubt she will be to blame for any of this. People report to her and she reports to the governor. If people don't report to her, she has nothing to give to the governor.

Oh really? Which people report to her? Who selects them? Are they selected for competence, or are they selected for not putting any bad news where a reporter might see it (a management style that might ring a few bells at this particular point in history)?

If people don't report bad news to her (or anyone else) *because she tells them not to*, she is very much responsible. It'd be the Challenger all over again - the engineer at the bottom of the bureaucracy knows there's a problem, but his "negative attitude" can't be allowed to derail the political agendas (and careers) of the higher-ups. It's so much simpler to shoot the messenger and have faith that nothing will go wrong.

It is perhaps a little early to say that that *did* happen. It is definitely not too early to be concerned about the *possibility* that it happened, or that something similar is happening right now with respect to *other* crucial infrastructure that will kill people when it fails.

*Starve the domestic arms of government so they can't make needed inspections, repairs, and replacements to our infrastructure.

Ok, I will drop the question of why using a tragedy to make one belief rant is ok, but another is accepted and focus on this.

Can you back this up with any statistics? I just spent a bit of time digging up federal Department of Transportation budgets since the 1960s. A casual perusal did not lead to any D vs R patterns jumping out at me. D and R administrations and legislatures both had absolute dollar drops and gains. Both had large increases, although suprisingly, two of the largest came in the first couple years of Bush Jr.

Arguing more from personal observation now, and without a solid basis of research... I see our infrastructure issues as reflecting human personality more than political ideology. Humans are poor at planning for the future. If we were not, Aesop never would have written the fable about the ant and the grasshopper.

Is just plain hard to sell the spending of millions, no sorry, billions of dollars to avoid nebulous future problems. Especially when the spending is on something as dull as four lanes of asphalt or replacement sewer lines. Every politician knows a vote for spending money on unglamerous infrastructure is going to be viewed very critically come election time by the bulk of the electorate regardless of political affiliation. For every conservative I have heard griping about big government spending, I have heard a liberal griping about the government giving money to big business.

Flying cars. That's what we need. And wireless/pipeless power, water and sewer. Somebody call the engineers and tell them to get cracking.

Flying cars. That's what we need. And wireless/pipeless power, water and sewer. Somebody call the engineers and tell them to get cracking.

Here you go sir, your own personal pipeless/wireless sanitary facility.

http://www.bigrockcabin.com/BigRockPhotoGallery_files/images/13Campsite…

That will be $10,000... no checks please you have the face of a deadbeat. :p

Ok, back in this thread, blame was tossed to the Minnesota Republicans for not taking care of the infrastructure. Troll Boy made mention of Democrat-Farmer-Labor currently having control. A rebutal was made that the DFL have only controlled both houses since 2006.

So I did some digging for those who would prefer to toss out simplified partisan blame less than 24 hours after the collapse. Since this bridge was built back in 1967...

Republicans/conservatives have controlled the House 12 years. They have controlled the Senate 4 years. Tossing in all of Minnesota's independent/oddball governors (my you folks make some interesting choices) to the R side gives them 24 years of control. Until the current session, liberals last controlled both legislative branches last in 1999. Conservatives had both branches last back in 1971.

There. Random factoids that most likely mean nothing. But at least you can try to shovel blame with some basis in fact now.

Here you go sir, your own personal pipeless/wireless sanitary facility.

Genius!

Memories of an old Asimov (I think) short story about a future where computers did all our math. A couple generals are astounded to find a Pentagon janitor who can actually do math...in his head! They are all a twitter at the possibilities of humans who can do the jobs of machines with this new learning.

[/inflections][monotone]Sean you are indeed correct in suggesting that the comment moderation should be more even handed and that every post in an internet forum should come with a bibliography. I thank you for your careful attention to detail and think that surely this discussion would be in better condition if this blog did not have a clear bias that attracted people who agreed with its general political leanings. *drool*[/monotone][inflections]

Jesus. You make the Nightly Business Report look like a Wet T-Shirt contest. Why don't you go organize some paperclips?

I too am sorry for the losses.

The weaknesses in our national and state infrastructure have long been identified. Maintenance and repair have also as long been deferred. We have had other priorities.

To give a foreign perspective from a nation without tropical cyclones and large tornadoes (too far north) and earth quakes (too old plate; I doubt that we have historically experienced trembles at 3 or above on the Richter scale):

Apparently we have very few bridges with this box design because they are considered too flimsy for most purposes - not rigid and sturdy enough. (And after the accident was published, experts rushed in to claim that those odd bridges are of an improved design, whatever that means.)

That doesn't sound good for the US bridges, so I hope this changes. I hear the political will for changes is low due to the thankfully rare occurrences of failure, so remedying construction requirements for new bridges could be the simplest start.

Sean:

Memories of an old Asimov (I think) short story

Yes, The Feeling of Power, published at least in Robot Dreams (&copyright; 1986).

The twist is that the future breed of military recognizes that computers have limitations, so replacing intercontinental ballistic missile controls with men that can recalculate course changes would be an advantage over the enemy. Except for the man in the missile.

[Btw, one of Asimov's worst stories IMHO - too much suspension of disbelief, twice over.]

To give a foreign perspective from a nation without tropical cyclones and large tornadoes (too far north) and earth quakes (too old plate; I doubt that we have historically experienced trembles at 3 or above on the Richter scale)

Actually there's one of those every year, and the strongest known one was about 6. But who needs earthquakes, when you got mudslides? That picture of the bridge crash is reminiscent of the E6 road that collapsed in western Sweden last Christmas.

I was glad to see PZ check in with an "I'm ok".
I know he lives in Morris, not Minneapolis, but when I heard about the bridge, I did immediately think of PZ and a personal friend from my old Library School alma mater who is a recently transplanted Minnesotan.

I also was relieved to hear from an old High School buddy living in Washington DC on the late afternoon of 9/11, when I finally was able to get through to his cellular phone. He works as a congressional staffer, and does not go to the Pentagon on anything like a regular basis, but...just the same...it was good to hear his voice that day, back then.

I always get the willies going over the causeway bridge to Galveston Island (and the Kemah Bridge, for that matter) but luckily, it's recently been rebuilt/expanded. Still, they took out an emergency lane which had been a feature of the older bridge, a decision many people weren't happy with. The civil engineers all pooh-poohed public concerns, but I still don't like it.

Still, it's normally the quickest way onto the Island unless you want to go out of your way and fiddle with the Bolivar Ferry.

Could be the steel just failed, remember the Green Bank radio telescope fell down one day?
http://www.radarpages.co.uk/news/greenbank.htm

But my bet's on that concrete pier that looks tilted, from that one picture I'd guess first the earth moved and let the metal parts twist out of line.

I'd say now is the perfect time to talk about funding infrastructure, while it's in the forefront of public conversation. I feel for the families of the dead, but this could have been prevented.

As for evidence that Republicans care more about the rich's pocket linings than the health and safety of actual people, I should nudge you towards the transportation bill that Pawlenty vetoed recently, and Bush's $1.35 trillion tax cut for the richest of the rich.

Now peruse this partisan rant.

A poster over at crooks&liars gave the following link on the state of America's bridges. All this more or less started with Reaganomics. (link removed) Rethuglicans, free-marketers kill.

How is this different? Is there a fundamental difference between the rants other than the exploitation of tragedy in post #2 supports the prevailing political winds here?

There is a fundamental difference between the comments. Bernarda and others are attempting to make the case that certain policies and doctrines notably favored by certain political factions may well have resulted in a financial and administrative situation that allowed the bridge to deterioriate into the state where it collapsed, which might have been prevented altogether if the people (and, by extension, their elected representatives) understood the matter, got their priorities straight, and demanded action be taken accordingly. While Bernarda and others are (understandably) bitter and (rightly) angry at what they perceive as callous and stupid decisions from certain political figures that lead to a needless disaster, the intended purpose of highlighting what they argue to be the causes behind this is to encourage the voters and their representatives (as many as they can reach) to re-evaluate their priorities and take action to ensure that the sort of negligence which they believe allowed this disaster to happen will not be tolerated in the future. They are making an effort to ensure that the history behind this disaster will be recognized and remembered so that it hopefully will not be repeated.

Meanwhile, if Philos' comment had any point other than sneering at atheists and capitalizing on the emotional distress of many blog posters here, rubbing salt in their wounds out of either bile-venting spite or sheer psychopathic sadism, I've yet to see it.

(As an addendum, DSM may have motives similar to Philos',or he may just be a narcissistic overgrown child who thinks his perceived sense of insult is the "real" tragedy here. Either way, he's obnoxious and pathetic.)

From the shots I've seen of the underside of the bridge before the accident, the first impression I had is that the steel structure was surprisingly light. I know we overbuild here in California where we have seismic loads to worry about, but that looked to me like it would be in danger if a ship collided with it.

-jcr

Azkyroth,

Just to be clear, I wasn't questioning or attacking you- I quoted you mostly because it provided a convenient jumping off spot for the point I was trying to make. Its just an internet mannerism on my part, not an attempt to link you personally with anyone else's statements or to require you to defend them.

Not saying you took it that way. I've just made enough enemies on the interwebs for things I really did mean to want to avoid adding a whole new category of accidental opponents.

Nick probably addressed this better than I did- my only intent was to point out that objectionable statements had been made on all sides, and that perhaps a sense of détente was called for on the parts of both the warring camps.

Granted, it may have been nothing more than gallows humor- but by definition, gallows humor is, to use Nick's adjective, ghastly. Not a problem in and of itself.

But when that kind of humor is passed off as being representative of, or attributable to, the thinking of a class of people who haven't expressed anything similar to that opinion in in numbers resembling even a significant minority... well that becomes a problem. Especially in the face of real, tangible misery. Not just because it appeals to strawman arguments and baseless demonization, but because its divisive and inflammatory at a time when unity and empathy are whats called for.

In a situation where real people are experiencing real suffering over a real event- It behooves us all to put aside the arrows and slings of rhetoric and address the situation at hand without backbiting and recrimination.

Plus when one day- and it will come, if it hasn't- when the theists get around to co-opting yet one more of the common arguments of the opposing side and start throwing around the complaint that moderate atheists must, by necessity, be held accountable for "enabling" the actions of every nut job atheist, everywhere, and start pounding their furious little fists against the prefab, pressed wood of thier Ikea computer hutches while bellowing insistently "why aren't those so-called moderate atheists doing something about all these antagonistic extremists"-

Well, at least I can say I tried.

Sure, mostly what I accomplished was being called a Neval Chamberlain atheist and a Concern Troll for my efforts.

But I did try.

I feel sorry for the family in this report who lost someone close, but the comments show not very useful fantasy thinking,

"She's a great person. She's a person of great conviction, great integrity, great honesty and great faith in her God," he said. "We're just hoping and praying here."

What does "great faith in her God" have to do with being a good person? Once again, what use is "praying"? Why don't they ask where her god was at the time of the accident?

It seems there are some here who don't like my singling out Rethuglicans. But since the Reagan years they are the ones who have railed against "big government" and have chanted their mantra of lower taxes--generally for the rich.

The Dems are only indirectly responsible because of their lack of gonads to stand up to the Rethuglican scorched-earth strategy.

...but this could have been prevented.

As for evidence that Republicans care more about the rich's pocket linings than the health and safety of actual people, I should nudge you towards the transportation bill that Pawlenty vetoed recently

The bridge was listed as being structurally deficient. From what I have read, many bridges are classified as such, and it is not a classification that means this bridge needs to be replaced now or people will die. Did not the professionals who examined the bridge say it was not a concern until 2020?

Is anyone saying with a straight face that if only Pawlenty had not vetoed the gas tax, the bridge would have been shut down and in the process of being replaced right now?

At this point we have no idea why the bridge collapsed. Design issues? Faulty construction? Faulty materials? Unexpected corrosion from the newly installed automatic deicer sprayers (heh, could infrastructure spending be a contributing cause)? How about we wait and see what the investigation says before tarring tens of millions of Americans with blame?

and Bush's $1.35 trillion tax cut for the richest of the rich.

Yeah. That money did not go toward replacing the bridge. It also was not spent on automatic sprinklers for a house down the street that recently burned. I am not going to hold Republicans responsible for this. Nor am I going to pick a random piece of spending supported by Democrats and then blame them for not prioritizing home sprinklers.

There is currently no known causation or correlation between any spending/not spending/tax cuts/tax increases and this bridge collapsing.

Helpful hint Bernada.

Any grade school level insult, whether it be Rethuglicans or Democruds or Nancy Peelousy or Shrub or Libertardians, leaves a good portion of the audience with a less than favorable impression of the insulter, not the insultee.

You get mentally lumped into the same classification as those I run into in online games who primarily communicate with misspelled witticisms such as, "UR ghEy!!" Immature and awaiting emotional development.

sean worries about "Immature and awaiting emotional development."

No wonder, coming from someone who frequents online games. That is virtually the definition of immature and awaiting emotional development.

Frankly sean, I don't care where you lump me.

Ok. Let me try again.

I assume you type comments here, and on whatever other sites you haunt, for the same reason as (most of) the rest of us. Advocacy. You have an opinion and a desire to advance this opinion in a manner designed to convince others to share this opinion.

Out in meatspace, one would not speak at a public venue to advocate a position while unshaven and wearing tattered sweatpants. A slovenly appearance detracts from your message. Online, many believe that the use of childish taunts creates a similar detracting image.

MmmK? Just saying you will be a more effective communicator if you raise the level.

And your shot about gaming is just to cover up your fear that I would p0wnz0r uR gH3y @ZZ! *sigh* Some really do speak like that.

Torbjörn,

With reference to The Feeling of Power. Do you simply have a superior memory or superior googling skills?

I have lost track of the number of times I have tried to track down a dimly remember tale without much success. Thanks.

Today's Winona Daily had an article on the state of the 7 bridges across the Mississippi between Wabasha, MN and Prairie du Chien, WI. The bridge at Wabasha (78%), the new one at La Crosse (86%), and the I-90 bridge (67%) were the only ones above a 50% rating - the minimum for "sufficiently safe". Lansing, IA came in at 28%; the lowest but also the least used. Winona's rated a 49.8%. I have to drive over it tomorrow to do my volunteer thing at the wildlife refuge. I wonder if I can borrow a canoe?

windy:

Actually there's one of those every year, and the strongest known one was about 6.

I stand corrected. And I should have checked.

Hmm, the higher number would put some stress on large structures after all.

Sean:

It just so happened I had a superior book shelf. :-P

(It helps to have a good memory, of course - I wouldn't have expended time going through my Asimov anthologies blindly. But I also search fast. Every little bit helps in this business. :-)

There is currently no known causation or correlation between any spending/not spending/tax cuts/tax increases and this bridge collapsing

1) "Bridge collapse" is a subset of "structure collapse."
2) Structure collapse is known to be correlated with poor maintenance/inspection.
3) Poor maintenance/inspection is known to be a common result of an insufficient budget.
4) Where do you think the money that's spent on that budget comes from?

Posted too soon. My point is, it's a very reasonable working hypothesis, and a legitimate concern since even if it did not lead to this particular incident, it very well could have.

sean, are you 15 or are you just a 30 something that acts 15?

People are into on-line gaming because they are mostly devoid of any other interest, usually because of lack of social skills. They also create their own language, "I would p0wnz0r uR gH3y @ZZ! *sigh*" because they cannot express themselves in their maternal language, usually English in the U.S. and cannot function in the society that uses it.

They use meaningless phrases like "Online, many believe that the use of childish taunts creates a similar detracting image."

"Many" in this case just a subsitute for "I". Am I to suppose that your insider gibberish is not a "childish taunt"? Probably you should just stay in your fantasy world.

I too am sorry for the losses.

The weaknesses in our national and state infrastructure have long been identified. Maintenance and repair have also as long been deferred. We have had other priorities.

To give a foreign perspective from a nation without tropical cyclones and large tornadoes (too far north) and earth quakes (too old plate; I doubt that we have historically experienced trembles at 3 or above on the Richter scale):

Apparently we have very few bridges with this box design because they are considered too flimsy for most purposes - not rigid and sturdy enough. (And after the accident was published, experts rushed in to claim that those odd bridges are of an improved design, whatever that means.)

That doesn't sound good for the US bridges, so I hope this changes. I hear the political will for changes is low due to the thankfully rare occurrences of failure, so remedying construction requirements for new bridges could be the simplest start.

Sean:

Memories of an old Asimov (I think) short story

Yes, The Feeling of Power, published at least in Robot Dreams (&copyright; 1986).

The twist is that the future breed of military recognizes that computers have limitations, so replacing intercontinental ballistic missile controls with men that can recalculate course changes would be an advantage over the enemy. Except for the man in the missile.

[Btw, one of Asimov's worst stories IMHO - too much suspension of disbelief, twice over.]

windy:

Actually there's one of those every year, and the strongest known one was about 6.

I stand corrected. And I should have checked.

Hmm, the higher number would put some stress on large structures after all.

Sean:

It just so happened I had a superior book shelf. :-P

(It helps to have a good memory, of course - I wouldn't have expended time going through my Asimov anthologies blindly. But I also search fast. Every little bit helps in this business. :-)