I get email

It's also sad that the many times a person might wish to hear a Bob Marley song but God sees fit to play the Talking Heads instead goes unnoticed and unmentioned.

I have a friend who told me that she believes in god because when she was a rebellious teenager she tried, she REALLY tried not not believe, but just couldn't. That's it. This same lady's father is a Lutheran minister. Nah, that couldn't possibly have anything to do with it...

Sad, indeed. On the other hand, stories like these provide some of the best insight into the nature of magical thinking and pareidolia available - traits that humans often are very prone to, and probably has provided some evolutionary advantages along the way.

I'm glad that it was a pleasant experience, but it sounds like your friend had a little break from reality.
Glad it wasn't a violent one

The two people I know who became very energetic religious types as adults also had borderline mental problems and were often manic with all the magical thinking that entails. Controlling radios and hearing voices sounds like the kind of stuff I used to hear from them before they went all out religo (one RC and the other Hare Krishna).

It's always striking to me how self-centered the faithful sound when they blather this kind of stuff.

he believes he could magically control which song comes up the radio, he hears voices

For a young male between 16-30 years of age, those can also be indicators of the onset of schizophrenia, too.

Finally -- an explanation for Pittsburgh drivers.

I've never gotten an answer from anyone trying to convert me as to why I should uncritically accept their conversion experience.

"So. . . these bizarre things happened to you, so I should just take your word for it? Uh, sorry, but would you like me to share my deconversion experience? I, too, once believed all sorts of magical things, but then one day I realized that the only thing that made a difference was the things that people actually do -- not prayers, not wishful thinking, not any sort of fantasy beliefs."

Random aside:

The Good News Translation is actually rather well-known for "sanitizing" certain passages. Sure, the King-James-Only folks will get up in arms over any other translation, but the GNT also makes some pretty drastic changes in order to coat the more bitter Biblical pills with aspartame. Most infamous is probably its rendition of Luke 14:26, which it turns around in order to make Jesus not sound like a fanatical cult leader.

He doesn't sound like a credulous moron so much as somebody in the early stages of a delusional mental illness that hadn't been diagnosed or treated, and now never will be, because irrational religious beliefs are exempt. Saw something similar when I went in to talk to the local Baptist minister, just for chuckles. Came out convinced that he was delusional, and had his crazy beliefs and distorted thought processes not happened to fit in with the dominant religion in his society, he would have been medicated and in an institution.

So, if I got this right, if I write a book wherein a character in the first half of the book predicts something that will happen in the second half of the same book ... it's all true?

Is Argument from God as a DJ a logical fallacy? Seems to me the break from reality started earlier than the post sushi entertainment if this person thought that a computer consultant delivers the mail.

Sushiboy here is also wrong about Isaiah 53. In reading the NT, one can hardly attribute passages like "No one would even look at him- we ignored him as if he were nothing," to Jesus, when Jesus and his teachings are shown to be quite popular in the Gospels. Also, it's inaccurate to attach "Like a lamb about to be slaughtered, like a sheep about to be sheared, he never said a word" to Jesus, as Jesus has quite a lot to say to Pontius Pilate upon his arrest. Also, Isaiah 53 says nothing about Jesus's betrayal or resurrection. Many scholars interpret the "suffering servant" of this passage, not as Jesus, but as the nation of Israel itself. Here's some good reading on the whole "prophecy" thing.

I hate shit like that. If God see fit to talk directly to this jerk-wad, then how come the vast majority of us are expected to be satisfied with second-hand accounts from douchebags handing out Chick tracts outside the goddamn Albert's Pancake House, huh?

Hear that God? You're omnipotent! The rest of us would love a little whisper in our ear, just like you did for this dope! C'mon, I'm not hard to find: I've got a blog, I'm on Facebook and MySpace, I've got a cell phone, my home number's in the phone book, I've got five working email addresses, for chrissake!

Fuck. Somebody hears God talking directly to him and has the fucking gall to tell the rest of us we gotta sift through some ancient tome to get the same message?

It was stories like these that led me to conclude as a young child that if God really did exist he was an arbitrary asshole who deserved neither worship nor fear.

Well at least he didn't wish for coldplay or something equally milktoast and subject the others around him with it.

Yesterday I was talking to some guy about cable news channels and I mentioned how they talk about Britney like it is a big news .. within seconds the TV (CNN) in the cafeteria we were in started talking about her ... therefore I believe in god ...

Rev. "BigDumbChimp": I suppose you meant to say milquetoast? You're not really helping the stereotypes of your own side ..

What Brownian said. It's a bizarre approach: I was converted because an omnipotent being spoke directly to me; you should believe because some book says some things. I've said before that I don't understand the psychology of proselytisers. They seem to have no grasp of how they come across to the very people they're trying to convert, which you think would be rather important in their chosen profession/hobby.

Eliza: Ditto.

Yep my bad, milquetoast. And my side? Which side would that be? Those who like Bob Marley more than coldplay?

There is medication available for people who experience things like this.

Blake Stacey -

"Softening" the translation like the Good News Bible does is only a bad thing if you're a rabid fundamentalist. It actually points to a humanizing and modernizing of Christianity which is a good thing overall - the more modern and human a religion becomes, the less sociopathic it is toward modern society. As it is, the idolators of the King James version of the Bible often hold beliefs that run counter to what makes a good modern human. People who are willing to open themselves up to new translations often are more willing to take the book as metaphor, allegory and as a record of the myths, legends, history and rules of an ancient Mid-Eastern society rather than the literal word of God that must be followed, even if it no longer makes sense to do so.

The foundations of modern humanism are in the Bible, after all - there's still some good stuff in there. It's just a question of separating the good lessons from the dangerous, and in figuring out that the lessons are good because they promote something worth keeping, and not because they come handed down from a cleaned-up Greek version of a Hebrew war god.

Sounds like the writer went into a sort of dissociative state, which is actually fairly common. He's probably moderately bright and skeptically normal in other areas, not crazy at all. Our culture reinforces these kinds of stories.

Despite the sense that this is all cosmically important, the perspective is personal, a narrative anyone can relate to in order to reinforce belief in a universe in which we really matter to it. They seldom understand charges of arrogance or gullibility. They feel like they've just been the exact opposite -- humble, and following reason where it lead.

It's also sad that the many times a person might wish to hear a Bob Marley song but God sees fit to play the Talking Heads instead goes unnoticed and unmentioned.

I, on the other hand, would be reasonably pleased to hear a Talking Heads song, so perhaps god was programming for me in such instances.

Frivolity aside, this guy sounds like he's undergoing a schizophrenic break. Not that I can diagnose from one email, not being Bill Frist, but if I knew this guy and he told me this story, I'd be seriously urging him to seek psychiatric advice. Those voices don't always stay pleasant.

You need a filter setup on your email that counts the number of "Lord"'s, "God"'s, and "Jesus"'s in your inbound email and any email that exceeds a set amount of them, have it automatically reply to it with a copy of "kissing Hank's ass".

http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php

Sorry folks, you're all wrong. the reason he felt the way he did is directly related to one thing. He's from Pittsburgh. You know what kinda toll all of that tainted water musta had on him? Oh, wait we do now.

Sounds like a case of rotten sushi to me.

Marcus Ranum:

It's always striking to me how self-centered the faithful sound when they blather this kind of stuff.

Do you mean like the woman who credits the almighty creator of the Universe and everything which exists with hooking her up on a Friday night? No, seriously:

I don't think we give God enough credit in our dating lives. We're like, "I'll do this, Lord, and then You just bless it." And God's like, "Hey, Kerri, I parted the Red Sea. I think I can find you a husband."

http://tinyurl.com/36bbeh

Self-centered doesn't begin to describe these people.

I wonder, if i convert to christianity, would my new magical powers prevent RAP music from playing?
It would be totally worth it.

Meanwhile, people suffer.

This god guy is really lethargic.

Dianne, I thought exactly the same thing. We see a number of problematic features in his email that lead me to wonder about psychosis of some sort.

First, individuals with schizophrenia have been shown to misperceive temporal sequencing. Thus, "I thought about a song and then it played" versus "the song played, and then I thought about it".

Second, auditory hallucinations are often experienced as whispers.

There are a few other things that that sounded suspicious as well [e.g., his writing style, his trance-like state] but I would have to know more about it to be sure if they're linked.

I have a friend who told me that she believes in god because when she was a rebellious teenager she tried, she REALLY tried not not believe, but just couldn't.

****************

I always wondered how someone tries "not to believe."

Maybe it was like that time I tried not collecting coins:

****************

HRRRGGGGGNNNHHHH face muscles straining Must... Not... Collect... Coins...

Crap. I've got two pennies in my pocket.

Guess I'm a coin collector for life.
****************

Hey, I really tried!

I can't help but laugh...

A lot of you are saying that this guy sounds schizophrenic. To me he just sounds like many of the people I grew up with. His letter reads like the sermons and testimonials I heard in church.

They are always looking for omens and personal messages from God. Remember Jesus in water stains? And tree stumps?

People: This is religion!

So, what happens when two Christians are listening to the same radio station but they're longing to hear two different songs?

Along those lines, why aren't Christians able to alter TV programming by wishing? It always seems to match what the TV guide says.

Wasn't the prediction in Isaiah shown to be made after the rebuilding (Due to some city names that didn't exist before it got destroyed but mentioned in that part of the bible)?

Or am I mixing it up with one of the other prophets?

More like dull minded morons. I couldn't read it beyond when he ordered his dinner at the sushi place. Maybe Jesus cares about the trivia of his life but I certainly don't.

Isn't that just a god spam message that bible thumpers are sending to millions of people?

-jcr

One question: how did he know it was God's voice when he only heard 'Good News'? Couldn't have been Zeus, Odin, Thor, greek Lucifer, etc.? I mean, to think automatically that it's a god's word is a bit insane. I'd look under the bridge. I bet some hobos found some bread slices and they were all saying "good news! ..." then, while he was walking away, "we hobos have dinner!"

I always think it's sad, funny and frustrating that they think hearing some voices. A car could have passed by and the driver could've said good news. I guess it doesn't matter, except for the fact that people are too lazy to seek out who said it instead of saying "God did it".

I worked with a guy who would at the drop of the hat relate the "Miracle of the Oreos:"

One day he had no more than 6-8 Oreos in his lunch when a co-worker asked him about Jesus. He then proceeded to share the good news and Oreos - the whole lunch hour and they never ran out of Oreos! The 6-8 Oreos fed two people for an hour!

Which was of course followed up with "How do you explain that Mr. Skeptic?"

And even if God were shown to exist, so flipping what? Why would I be obligated to accept his "authority"? By whose authority is God God? Nobody ever answers those questions. Everything that we know about abusive and dysfunctional relationships goes right out the window when we're talking about God. I think it's pathetic for people to get so excited about a pretend "authority" rather than get excited about their own lives and what they can accomplish.

How does one politely say (as I've been tempted to, but never have yet), "But I simply don't want to be anything like you"?

Please, PZ, post more of these letters. I need a good laugh.

My bad. I completely said that last part all wrong.

What I meant to say is people don't look for a natural, logical reason. They don't want to take it upon themselves to find out themselves. All they do is say, "God did it."

Anyone else think olanzapine when reading this? Shame an omniscient magic man can be cured by blocking serotonin receptors.

Oh, H. Herbert, that link just made my day.

Q: What mistakes did you make when you dated online?

A: My heart was totally in the wrong place. I didn't pray about it. I was never intentional or really thoughtful about online dating. The first time I logged into a dating site was at 2 a.m. after having run into my ex and his fiancée on my birthday. I'd look at the pictures first and skip the profiles if the guys weren't hot. I wanted an investment banker who looked like an Abercrombie model. But when it came time to pray, those guys thought I was a zealot.

Translation for non-theists:

Q: What mistakes did you make when you dated online?

A: I was a superficial retard. When I wisened up and started behaving like an adult with a fully-functioning brain, I had more success. Which I then attributed to God, for some reason.

Meanwhile, people suffer. That's going to be my new catch-phrase when talking to faith-heads. Thanks, Caucasian Jesus!

Along those lines, why aren't Christians able to alter TV programming by wishing? It always seems to match what the TV guide says.

Are you suggesting that the TV Guide makes prophesies that come true? This might be the new holy text we've been looking for.

Cyde Weys said:

Rev. "BigDumbChimp": I suppose you meant to say milquetoast? You're not really helping the stereotypes of your own side ..

From your blog:

Keep your eyes pealed.

Pot, kettle, etc.

Strange, I misread the email title at first as:

True Good News. God is real. Jesus is Lard.

It nearly made as much sense...

Good News. I've been drinking since noon.

I've asked God to show me any kind of sign he wishes. I've asked demons to possess me, for the sake of demonstrating, at the presumed expense of horrendous earthly suffering, the existence of satanic agents. I've stared into my bathroom mirror in candlelight at midnight and said "Bloody Mary" and "Biggie Smalls" and "Jerry Falwell" thirteen times apiece.... nothing has ever happened. If all these entities see it fit to ignore me, I can only return the favor.

This is God and I have the following message for you...

Dildos and Corn Muffins. Double-Snakity-Wibble-Wabble-Boo! Send me a dollar.

Who cares at #35:

I think you're correct: chapters 40-66 of Isaiah are commonly referred to as Second Isaiah, or Deutero-Isaiah, because most serious biblical theologians do not consider these passages to have the same author as Isaiah 1-39 (way too many differences in style and tone). The traditional date for Isaiah's authorship is 700 BCE, and that might even apply for the first 39 chapters, but most scholars place the writing of Second Isaiah at ca. 500 BCE, during or after Cyrus the Great's declaration to rebuild the Temple.

Ironically, I learned this in my religion class in Catholic high school.

Ah, the old prophecy argument. I heard that a lot in Bible studies back in my pre-atheist days. It's funny, too, how the same people dismiss the prophecies of, say, Nostradamus as being too vague to truly apply. Or that they're just retroactively fit to events and aren't TRUE prophecy. It's very frustrating that they don't realize the same arguments apply to biblical prophecy as well! And even more so, on account of it being written and edited by lots of people over many years.

It's scary that crap like that made sense to me at one time.

A) Isaiah 44 is written after the earlier chapters of Isaiah (I believe it's 1-40, and either 1 or 2 authors from then on though the second author split is up for debate). In fact, it's written after the temple and thus is simply reporting "The Temple was built." rather than "The Temple will be built." This is because in Hebrew there is perfect and imperfect tense. You can either be told that something is happening right now or it isn't happening right now. So if writing about the destruction of Tyre or something after the fact, it looks like a prediction when it's simply a description of what happened.

B) The Suffering Servant of Isaiah served as a template for writing the Gospel. It's no more a fulfilled Jewish prophecy than the Left Behind series would be the fulfilled Christian prophecy of Christian prophecy. The Gospels were made to fit the prophecies, they were written with that intent, and later edits simply added to that, such as the born of a virgin mistranslation and the of the line of David prophecy (which work together to make no sense at all).

Wait a minute...a Sushi place that plays both Japanese music and Bob Marley? Must've been quite the establishment. I'm going with #27 and suspecting food poisoning.

Is he sure the voice didn't say: "Good snooze"?

Heck, the whole thing might have been avoided by a good night's sleep.

Instead, we get someone committed to Jesus for life.

[sigh]

Self-centered doesn't begin to describe these people.

My favorite example is here. My jaw hit the floor when I first read this.

Wonderful.

My former in-laws were total religious fanatics. They used to claim that the Lord saved them good parking spots, right next to the door of the mall. I'm serious. Back in those days, I was too polite to ask why God was fooling around reserving parking for affluent Americans while people were starving in Africa and Asia.

Not too long ago, I met a Mormon computer geek and paid him to come over and do some work on my computer. He took the computer apart and then wouldn't put it back together until he finished evangelizing me. He told me a long, bizarre story about how he and another guy were spending the night guarding a Mormon church that was under construction in Baton Rouge. They were awakened by bright lights and unearthly sounds. They looked at the unfinished church and watched in awe as it filled with angels who were emitting bright lights. Then he said, "how could anyone NOT believe that?"

I couldn't give him my real answer because he had my computer in pieces. When he finally left, I thought, that is the last time I allow a god damned Mormon in my house.

Obviously, he misinterpreted his supernatural experience. It was Bob Marley speaking to him from beyond the grave.

Seriously, though...

A friend had a psychotic break three years ago when she was away at school. It came out of nowhere. I know her quite well and she was a bright, vivacious, capable person.

According to her she was sitting in class when suddenly a voice whispered inside her head to turn her head to the left to look out the window. She lost volition and could not resist the command to turn her head.

It was the voice of God.

Soon after, she had a terrifying experience with an Ouija board. Before long she was unable to function in college, so she moved back home with her parents. Other auditory hallucinations followed. For example, she went to visit her grandparents, and as she walked in, the voice of a certain well-known rock musician started whispering in her head that their house wasn't safe. (She now says she had been abused there as a child.)

This went on for well over a year before she admitted that maybe this was happening only in her head. But she admitted this on the same night she told me she was sure that she was the reincarnation of Marilyn Monroe.

Some of that may sound kinda funny, but I don't mean it to. I mourn for her. I mourn the loss of her sanity. I don't know who she is anymore, and neither does she. FWIW - She's quite religious now. Before all this started, she wasn't. Not at all.

This thread gets my vote for funniest Pharyngula thread ever. I've been chuckling and chortling, with occasional guffaw, throughout.

Thanks for the laughs, lads and ladies. :)

when I was 12 I thought I could manipulate the next day's weather by ordering beads a certain way on a pin...and I still didn't really believe in god then!

I don't think we give God enough credit in our dating lives. We're like, "I'll do this, Lord, and then You just bless it." And God's like, "Hey, Kerri, I parted the Red Sea. I think I can find you a husband."

"And it's not like I've got anything better to do with My time", God continued, feigning a yawn. "Refugees in Darfur and anencephalic babies are so yesterday!"

The foundations of modern humanism are in the Bible, after all - there's still some good stuff in there.

Yeah, I am particularly fond of the word "the."

Seriously, though - there's "good stuff" in the bible? If so, it's largely accidental. You mean the "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you?" and all that? Y'know, I don't think that the (very mortal) authors of the bible were the people who thought that one up.

Sounds like the writer went into a sort of dissociative state, which is actually fairly common.

Lots of street drugs will do this to you (as well as some prescription ones like dextramorpham) - like you said, it's a fairly common phenomenon. When I've talked to people who spend a lot of time tripping, I frequently get stories like sushiboy's - it's just that frequently they contextualize the disassociative experience with something like "Wow. I want to play dance dance revolution!" instead of "Wow. Teh Gohd is pwn3d me!"

Odd. Just the other day I was thinking that my local radio station was playing way too much Bob Marley.

I see his mistake. Auditory hallucinations do occur, and they can be really weird. The first time can be freaky, but once you understand them they're actually pretty cool.

I once had a coworker who came in to work with a face -- like they say -- like he'd just seen a ghost. Before his alarm had gone off, he woke up to the sound of his mother's voice -- the voice of his dead mother. He was really freaking out, wondering if he was being haunted.

I asked him if when he lived with his mother had she usually called up to him to wake him, and he got this really strange look on his face, wanting to know why. I explained about auditory hallucinations, and how people's minds can interpret them into a host of things, from gunshots to explosions to voices to car crashes. He'd had one near waking and his brain fell back on old habits, interpreting the impulse as his mother's voice. These hallucinations often happen near waking or when falling asleep, but they can happen at a quiet moment when part of the brain is going partly to sleep.

The CMU guy, despite his trust in computer science to solve problems, instead put his trust in make believe to explain an auditory hallucination and look where that nonsense took him. If he'd studied some physiology, he would have figured it out right quick.

That's the problem with religion and any other kind of magical thinking: it squanders resources on something that isn't there, distracting people from starting to deal with their problems. I'll bet he doesn't consult the sky fairy when he's trying to debug software.

My sister and I were driving in Connecticut and were talking about AC/DC. I asked her if she had ever heard the song "Big Balls". She hadn't but we were both laughing that it was the very next song that the radio station played. Maybe I should reconsider that this is a message from the big guy. I wonder what he could have been telling me by them playing that song though. ;^)

A little OT, I'm looking for some new car sounds. The usual:AM, FM, CD, MP3, XM RAdio. But now that I'm hearing that I can get God on the radio, do you know which makes offer God and is it a subscription service? Thanks in advance.

It is implied that ordinary driving requires paying attention to billboards and otherwise being distracted from the road. Geez. Jumping into a car while experiencing "an effect similar to tunnel vision"? this is tantamount to Driving Under the Influence.

I'd like to recommend to your letter-writer, and all and sundry, a book called "The Unauthorized Version", by Robin Lane Fox. While it's by no means the last word on biblical history, it gives a good broad treatment of the topic. Of relevance to the current discussion -

No part of our modern bible can be traced back further than 700BC, and that's being optimistic. We do have fragments of texts dating back to around the mid 600s, and over the course of history, we have different and conflicting versions of every single book. The reference to Cyrus in Isaiah can be readily explained by the fact that the version of Isaiah we use - along with a huge amount of the material in the first dozen books or so - was set down in its current form *after* 539BC, when the Persians released Israel from Babylonian captivity and the cult of Yahweh in Jerusalem was restored after a near 50-year hiatus.

Furthermore, we have clear evidence that there are two distinct books of Isaiah, written over a hundred years apart, which have been merged together into one.

In slightly more recent events, there's a clear effort by the gospellers to shoehorn the events of Jesus' life into various prophecies - the Nativity story being one of the more obvious examples. There are numerous contradictions regarding it both within the Bible and with external sources, and the whole thing is best read as various author's attempts to cobble together oft-quoted bits of messianic prophecy into a semi-coherent narrative.

The most remarkable thing about the history of the Bible, to me, is that nearly every significant advance in our knowledge of the subject is over a hundred years old itself! It seems as though initially there was at least some effort by theologians to grapple with the ramifications of what the historians had uncovered (the Unitarians took all this in stride, I'm sure), but nowadays it really seems as though the preferred state among religious "thinkers" is to simply be oblivious to the subject.

And on an absolutely unrelated note, I notice my postings are getting held more often - but not always... Is there a guide somewhere to what triggers that? I'd like to avoid that.

Cynics! I was convinced. And I just accepted Jesus into my life. All will be wonderful, while you folks are buying handbasket tickets.

I don't know how it will work out though. He ate the last sausage in the fridge - even though it was clearly marked "Sam's Sausage". And he hogs the duvet.

My conversion experience was pretty cool. Using integral calculus I worked out how to measure the amount of gasoline in a cylindrical tank resting on its side from the depth of the liquid and the tank inside dimensions. The solution proved our supplier had been cheating us. I've believed in calculus ever since.

Not really given to anecdotes, I am of the same era as PZ`s bell bottoms, the first time around! I have an old friend, an artist. He is by my estimation the most christian of christians...Even though he has seen the devil at the bottom of his bed, jesus in the local grave yard and he knows that Jimi Hendrix is/was the reincarnation of jesus christ. An intelligent man, he applied for and obtained a place on the theology (degree) course at the local university. He did two terms without problem until they discovered the state of his mental health. Unfortunately this happened on his 40th birthday, the theological students from his year were invited to his party. Approximately 8 of them came and stayed in a clump all night alchol and drug free. The man in question dressed as the female version of Bates in Psycho, Wig and knife included wandering around. A couple were dressed as jesus and mary and I cannot for the life of me remember any more.

How amusingly self-centred this fellow is. To think that the omniscient, omnipotent creator of the universe would be interested enough in his filthy little life to actually talk to him? Were such a stupendously powerful being to exist, it would surely be totally uninterested in us mere apes.

The feeling inspired by being talked to directly by such a being would inspire in me the feeling a spider has when you trap it under a glass. And here's this chap saying "oh goody, I've been chosen!" Before he knows it, there's a piece of card sliding in under the rim of the glass and he's in a whole world of shit.

Funny how when God/Jesus speaks to these people, he never reveals anything that the person in question couldn't possibly know and that would be truly revolutionary...like a cure for cancer, how to regenerate a kidney or how to build an interstellar propulsion system. In fact, the Big Guy rather resembles Ramtha, who in the immortal words of Carl Sagan, only offers "bland homilies."

I dunno. But you can takt the Sheri Shepeherd IQ test online:

http://thestubborncurmudgeon.blogspot.com

Willo the Wisp, You sound like a theist to me! You have the same self satisfied patronising tone.

This was a perfect description of a hypomanic episode/ borderline psychosis. I guess the guy can be glad he didn't do anything stupid. Most likely a week or two later he was feeling in the pits. I hope he gets help. This can actually be treated quite effectively these days, providing the patient (or someone around him) realizes he has a problem..

I hope this kid is reading this thread. OK, so if God, being all-knowing, was aware of not only my exact moment of conception but also that I would become an atheist in my later teenage years, (and more importantly, why), doesn't God owe me an explanation? I mean, it's not like I had a choice, if God already knew what my life would be like. He supposedly knows why I think the idea of him is a load of crap. I have no doubts a being capable of creating the universe could detect my intellectual integrity in this matter. Surely a being of such power could contrive some means of convincing me he's real. If my eternal soul depends on this crucial belief, and it pains God so much that I don't believe in him, he knows what to do. In fact, he could eradicate atheism in one fell swoop, if he really existed and the nonsense people like this kid believe in were actually true. Good luck, whoever you are. I hope you find your way back to reality someday.

Along those lines, why aren't Christians able to alter TV programming by wishing?

They are. Perhaps not by ONLY wishing, but they are altering tv programming.

"Oh no, we must not make the christians feel uneasy".

Wait, turning wine into water counts as a miracle too!?!

I do that all the time!

I doubt that he's reading this. Most of the email like that is, I suspect, from people who google "atheist", get a bunch of names, and fire off their carefully crafted screeds at the whole damned mob.

But is it better than the first?

I was listening to a tune on the radio, and I was thinking that I hoped the next tune would be a really good Mexican polka. Now, this was in Salt Lake City, and the station that would become an NPR affiliate when NPR was invented, so Mexican polka is not what most people would expect to hear.

But sure enough, the next tune up was a lively polka with great accordian playing. I jumped up and danced around a bit, and a Mexican guy came through the door and started dancing with me.

Of course, I was the disc jockey, and it was the Mexican Civic Center Hour. But if I understand it right, this person who sent you the e-mail, P.Z., says I'm God.

I'm flattered, of course. But I hope he gets help.

"When I was driving I felt as if I should go towards home"

Signs and Wonders! Humperdido!

Brownian, you should be a stand-up comedian for comment #14.

most people think . . . great god will come from the sky
take away everything. . . and make everybody feel high
but if you know what life is worth. . . you will look for yours on earth
so now you see the light
stand up for your right!

- Marley/Tosh

Couldn't have been that song, eh? :)

Speaking of stupidly trivial miracles, here's my all-time favourite, paraphrased:

As a child left a restaurant, he was given a yellow helium balloon. As children tend to do, he let it go, and it floated away into the sky. That night, the child prayed to God, asking for his balloon back.

In the morning, the child rushed downstairs and out into the garden. And behold! Up in the branches of a tree, in plain view, there was a flash of yellow. As the child drew closer, he could clearly see the restaraunt's name in bold, black letters across that yellow background. Truly, God is great! For He had moved Heaven and Earth to fulfil this child's humble wish, and return a simple balloon.

Burst.

Conclusion: there is a god, but he's a jerk. Which would explain a great deal, really.

Wishful thinking/woo/unverifid anecdote from Conservapedia's section on atheism, the section:
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There is a book by Richard H. Harvey, entitled "70 Years of Miracles." In it Harvey relates his experience in a Chemistry class at Allegheny College in Meadville, Pennsylvania in the 1920's.

According to Harvey, his professor Dr. Lee was a deist who for many years had spent time with each freshman class lecturing against prayer. After a couple of sessions discussing the power of natural laws and the lack of evidence that any god interferes with those laws, Lee would announce that he would drop a flask to the floor and challenged anyone to pray that the flask would remain whole.

Harvey then related that one year, a student finally found the courage to stand up and volunteer to pray. Lee dropped the flask and it rolled off his shoe to the floor without damage. The class cheered and Lee no longer delivered his annual lectures against prayer.
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They really do believe that they have special insight into this stuff. Yikes!

Why do the Christians like Comic Sans so much?

I wonder, if i convert to christianity, would my new magical powers prevent RAP music from playing?
It would be totally worth it.

But qedpro, that would mean the end of MC Hawking! Please, be careful what you wish for!

Poor guy missed the whole point. A Bob Marley song! Jah was calling him to convert to Rastfarianism!

Kristine said:

How does one politely say (as I've been tempted to, but never have yet), "But I simply don't want to be anything like you"?

How about: Pardon me, sir, but you can take your inestimable self and get the f*ck out of here...

The Red Sox won the world series... if anything has proven that miracles happen.

Not really.

Even though I'm a Red Sox fan from way back.

Did anyone else get the feeling that reading the email felt like watching a Twilight Zone episode?

According to Harvey, his professor Dr. Lee was a deist who for many years had spent time with each freshman class lecturing against prayer.

It seems appropriate that a story that christians use to prove the existence of god should be an urban legend.

http://www.snopes.com/religion/chalk.asp

But, since Harvey claims it as personal experience, one can only conclude that he is a liar. Well, think of that, a christian bearing false witness, what a surprise!

"It's always striking to me how self-centered the faithful sound when they blather this kind of stuff."

No surprise there. Religious belief is an inherently self-centered thing. It all just comes down to an inability to believe that you're not the center of the universe... that you are an insignificant part of the universe, mortal, and you don't get to choose the hows and whys of the universe's existence based solely on what makes you feel safe and happy.

Heh. 'Cargenie Mellon'...

Here's that letter elsewhere in a slightly different form:

http://www.xfree86.org/pipermail/forum/2005-April/004897.html

PZ, I wonder if this guy just cut-and-pasted some kind of Christian boilerplate email and pretended it was from his own personal experience?

Arrgh. First creationist engineers spring up to malign my field, now creationist programmers who can't even spell the name of a university I greatly appreciate.

Here's that letter elsewhere in a slightly different form:

http://www.xfree86.org/pipermail/forum/2005-April/004897.html

PZ, I wonder if this guy just cut-and-pasted some kind of Christian boilerplate email and pretended it was from his own personal experience?

wouldn't be the first time.

He's citing scripture (water to wine) from the Gospel of John? Everyone knows John just made it up as he went along.

The last time I was wishing the next tune would be U2, it wound up being Brittany Spears. Ergo, there is no god, but, quite possibly, there's a satan.

Car Genies Rule!

Keeps the fine Corinthian leather lookin' sweet.

oh yes.

the existence of boy bands in general confirms Satan's influence in the music industry.

I have first hand experience of that world... I was involved (built the servers, wrote some of the backend and front end programming) with the company that made the very first public website for NSYNC.

the people who recruit and prep boy bands (yes, they are constructions) for public consumption are most certainly highly ranked acolytes in Satan's arsenal.

I knew there was something not right about religion even as a very young boy, but only recently did I actually think through the belief in a supreme being. I sort of had a conversation with myself that began by asking the question "Between a man who controlled magic and magic itself, which would you consider to be more powerful?". Hhhmm... God created everything, correct? Let's go back to that moment. Here he is. God. He's been floating in a void for eternity. (let's skip for the moment the pesky detail of how long is eternity) Where to begin? You can't create something out of nothing, but wait, there's magic! He waves his hands and the universe of stars and planets appears. Wait a minute! You mean, God didn't actually think through "How Things Work"? He left it to the more powerful force of Magic to work that out? Then, what did Magic do to work out the details? I mean, the structure of matter and all those pesky details? And, if Magic did the actual work of Creation, then it wasn't God that worked it out was it? OK, let's ask Magic how he did it. What material did he start with? Hhhmm... you can't create something out of nothing. No wait! Wasn't that God's delimma? Out of all the stuff you read about religion, whether it comes from the believers or the disbelievers, nobody seems to point to the challenge of actually thinking out "The Beginning".

..oh, and the relevance to Brittney is that it she was promoted in her early career by the same folks.

evil, evil people.

No WAY.

Backstreet Boys are Satan's spawn NOT N*SYNC.

Dork.

Backstreet Boys are Satan's spawn NOT N*SYNC.

ROFLMAO.

If i thought you were serious (and believe me, there are plenty who are *gag*), I'd tell you...

both groups were put together and promoted by the same people in Florida.

shocker, huh?

those people still give me shudders when I think about the conversations I had with them, and that was over 7 years ago.

How does he know it wasn't Zeus who put on the Bob Marley song? I hear he's a big fan.

here's another shocker most bloggers find hard to grasp:

the first week we had the NSYNC website up, it AVERAGED 1 million hits PER DAY, and around 100K unique visitors.

needless to say, I was pretty damn proud that I built the servers to handle that traffic; and they had a 99% uptime for the next year, too, until our company folded.

people talk about traffic to places like pharyngula...

my guess would be that all the scienceblogs combined average about 50K unique visitors a MONTH (and that's likely being generous).

of course, the real sadness being that the NSYNC website typically would draw more traffic in an hour than all of scienceblogs combined would in a week.

*sigh*

and perhaps another "shocker"...

These boy bands are surrounded with lawyers in complete feeding frenzy mode, and getting money for actual services rendered is like pilot fish picking up the scraps after a tiger shark feeding frenzy.

not surprisingly, even though the site we built for them was tremendously successful, we hardly saw any money make it past the lawyers to us. which is one of the reasons we went belly up.

All right, what's one more comment? Let's pile on. I opened my copy of the Jewish Publications Society Tanakh, a modern translation from the original text, and the passages in the JPS translation differ quite significantly from the one in the email. I mean, I knew that Christian translations of Jewish texts were often quite skewed, but that's pretty bad. It's bad enough that they misrepresent science, but they also misrepresent what's supposed to be their own foundational text.

Besides, if the messianic prophecies were fulfilled, we'd be living in the messianic age right now, and we clearly are not. Or at least, i hope not.

Most of these comments are as comical as the email blogged about. Very entertaining,really.
It is also quite humorous that even self-named atheistic scientists use the Bible as a time line tool. Einstein was asking the question "how would I have made the universe if I was God' when he developed his 'theory for everything'. For me, the funniest thing of all is that most atheists have never read the Bible. How can you be against a God you know about through only the internet? The Bible is not just a book like 'Alice though the Looking Glass'. You have to know about authenticated history, symbolism, realism, God Speak, comparative scripture, parabolic language, past and present political turmoil, as well as the cultures and religions of many societies. If God was a question, we wouldn't be interested enough to ask. The law of God is written on human hearts. We all have the right to deny it.
I humbly request that you read The Book for yourselves.

God spoke to me once, but then the doctors put me on Clozaril and cut the conversation short.

The Bible is not just a book like 'Alice though the Looking Glass'.

you're right, it's more like a badly done compilation of a BUNCH of books like 'Alice through the Looking Glass'.

even containing repetitions of the same book, written by different authors, no less.

yeesh.

It's would be like if the "Lord of the Rings" contained not just fantasy stories by Tolkien, but fantasy stories from a bunch of different authors, often unrelated to one another, and even contained several different versions of "The Hobbit", written by different authors, thrown in for good measure.

Heh, people are spamming you with messages telling you to become Christian? All I get is spam telling me to give money to Nigerian "diplomats" or enter my personal financial details into unknown websites based in Russia or China! That "conversion story" reminds me of this, a Jesus Recruiter-meets-Nigerian Scammer which I've posted on message boards. I'd send it to you via email, PZ, but I'm sure your spam filters would block it.

By the way, the URL in the linked image-text kinda helps enhance the effect.

It is also quite humorous that even self-named atheistic scientists use the Bible as a time line tool.

I'm not going to flame you since either you're not very good at speaking English, or you're retarded. In either case, it isn't nice to make fun of you. Instead, I'm going to pretend I understood what you were gibbering about and give you a nice pat on the head.

If God was a question, we wouldn't be interested enough to ask

indeed we wouldn't. It's morons like yourself that FORCE us to listen to you tell us about him/it.

otherwise, you are completely correct, nobody would be interested.

doubtless you won't get what I mean, though.

All I get is spam telling me to give money to Nigerian "diplomats"

hmm.

all I get is spam telling me my penis is too small.

wanna trade?

:p

Tsk, tsk, bolingo...such assumptions. Many of the atheists here have read the bible -- and not just the parts you like. Many of us were brought up in a church, and have left it.

We also encourage people to actually read the bible. It's a great evangelical tool for atheism.

Adding to my previous post; The Old Testament was written 500 years before Christ in Hebrew and not changed until these new versions have recently been published. The King James Version is the most accurate of a complete Bible and still needs to be compared with the original Greek and Hebrew for minor translational errors. The NV's are loose interpretations of these scriptures that leave out and change passages that are key to understanding the Bible. Sadly, and finally the NV ignores the last scriptural law of the Bible. That is why so many are being misled at this time. The Bible speaks about how this strong delusion will overcome the Church as it is known in our society. The Church is actually the Temple, the Temple is the body. It is all quite real, not magic at all.

the Old Testament was written 500 years before Christ in Hebrew

really?

wow, such scholarship on your part.

ROFLMAO

It is all quite real, not magic at all.

nothing up my sleeve... presto!

tell me, do you send cards to Santa?

bolingo SO belongs in the religious trolling thread.

any chance we could move his posts there?

"Parabolic language"...hmmm. Is that like "exaggeration", or is it simply parabolic lying?

"God Speak' - is that like when you pretend to speak His Mind, or is it just the voices you hear in your head?

What makes you think we haven't read that book and other screeds? Conceit perhaps?

Tell us this: How come those voices in your head haven't yet corrected your many misconceptions? (Shhh...maybe its the devil).

Thanks all, for your ridicule of bolingo. After some of the other shit I've read to night, y'all have restored some of my belief in people.

The King James Version is the most accurate of a complete Bible and still needs to be compared with the original Greek and Hebrew for minor translational errors.

Oh, well that explains a thing or two. Could you help me find the minor translational error which has evidently corrupted the meaning of Deuteronomy 20:13-16? Or 21:18-23? Also, the entire book of Joshua has left me a little perplexed, so could you point out the minor tranlational error there that has led me to believe that Christianity is a genocidal death cult? Finally, I'd like a little clarification in how the meaning of 2 Kings 2:23-24 was lost in translation, since it seems to me that God has a bunch of children killed for making fun of some dude's bald head.

Thanks for your help!

bolingo writes:
It is also quite humorous that even self-named atheistic scientists use the Bible as a time line tool.

I'd never use it for something like that. Toilet paper, maybe, but only if I ran out of Charmin.

So, bolingo, you claim the Bible perfectly predicts the Bible will be misinterpreted and a strong delusion will overcome the Church, so we should therefore read the bible?

That's either incoherent or trollish.

I was going to put more revolting Bible verses up here, but I got tired of flipping through my Thompson Chain Reference, and started using Google instead. Check this shit out: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

What makes you think we haven't read that book and other screeds? Conceit perhaps?

no.

projection is what makes a "true believer" unable to process the idea that those who disagree with them might actually have perused the same sources of "wisdom" they have.

see it all the time.

denial and projection are the two things that maintain religion as a worldview.

but, you may ask, aren't denial and projection characteristics of a mind on the defensive?

yes, they are.

hence, you will not be able to convince a "true xian" via evidentiary argument.

you have to deprogram them first.

it's not an issue of logic, reason, or evidence. it really is a matter of deprogramming cult ideology utlizing standard psychology.

the reason we don't promote this idea is simply because religion as a cult phenomenon pretty much gets a "pass" in this country, so individuals suffering the worser aspects of it, like bolingo, never are encouraged to seek treatment by their peers, or even by most of the rest of society.

so, in case he's never heard it before, let me be the first:

bolingo, you have been brainwashed into a delusional cult. I recommend you seek treatment at your nearest health care professional.

Dustin: You talk way better english than me!

Ichthyic: I am sorry you felt FORCED to read my comment. I didn't feel forced to read yours. Maybe that was just in your head?

PZmeyers: You are right. I am only going by my unofficial surveys of Atheists I know and love, never claimed anything else.

I'd never use it for something like that. Toilet paper, maybe, but only if I ran out of Charmin.

Not even then (my ass deserves something soft, not crinkly and itchy).

It works nicely, though, under a table leg for making the old table my mom got from my granparents and gave to me sit evenly.

Actually, it was a hobo identifying- but mispronouncing, the hallucinatory herd of "Gnus" rampaging around his alcoholic fog. Now, the real miracle was Gwod healing Lions quarterback, Jon Kitna of a concussion over halftime this past Sunday.

I am sorry you felt FORCED to read my comment. I didn't feel forced to read yours. Maybe that was just in your head?

ah, thanks for giving everyone permission to completely ignore you.

that's what you really want, right? for everyone to ignore your message?

i mean, that's why you posted, right?

tell me:

do you feel it's your responsibility to report the "good news" wherever you go, as a good xian?

yeah, that's what I thought. ever thought WHY you think it necessary?

ever heard the term, "god-bothering, tub-thumper"?

as i said in the original comment:

"doubtless you won't get what I mean, though."

surprise, surprise.
you still don't.

but, you're doing your job, tub-thumper, otherwise we would all forget about your xian god, right?

keep thumpin' that tub.

Oh dear, conversion testimonials...

I wish I'd had a dollar for every pentecostalist Anglican upper-middle-class teenager/young adult I heard give their testimonial about how Jesus came into their heart. The only epiphany I ever had was the conviction that there was a God.

The more of these testimonials I listened to, the more points of similarity I was able to pick. That was one of the things which made me decide to leave that particular youth group - the feeling that they were only really performing for the others.

Anyone who comes out with a testimonial like this is in my mind either:

1) Pandering for approval to those they see as their elders (in the religious sense), OR

2) Psychotic with a religious overlay.

Quite frankly, I'm drifting towards a religious viewpoint in which God encapsulates truth and beauty. That sounds like a pretty reasonable God for a scientist to believe in; don't you think?

"So I left, and was walking back to work to check in and see if anyone needed anything... I felt compelled to go straight to my car and drive."

So rather than go back and help any co-workers who might actually need help, you go off on some god induced acid trip? You bastard.

That sounds like a pretty reasonable God for a scientist to believe in; don't you think?

well, if that's the best you can do...

:P

boloingo dribbled:

The King James Version is the most accurate of a complete Bible and still needs to be compared with the original Greek and Hebrew for minor translational errors.

Wrong, the KJV is probably the worst translation since it was based on untrustworthy sources. The KJV is based on a Greek new testament put together by a man called Erasmus in the 12th century. It is now considered to be one of the poorer Greek new testaments due to the many flaws in Erasmus' work.

I suggest you read 'Misquoting Jesus' by biblical scholar and textual critic Bart Ehrman though I'm sure you won't because it might damage your certainty.

I love how people refer to the "prophecies" of the Bible. The book was written over hundreds of years. It was edited, edited again, edited yet again, [repeat unlike the lab tech in the OJ trial]. For the library of Alexandria they created an "official" copy of the Torah (Old Testament) which left out parts. Then you get the New Testament, which was written by at least three authors, possibly far more, and the oldest gospel wasn't written until decades after the facts by someone who was almost certainly not there. These elements of the bible are yet again edited, yet again, compiled, and yet again major portions of the overall body of Christian writing are simply suppressed. The four gospels contradict themselves, but are somehow proof?

Then, this monstrosity of a compilation, already edited to reduce women's roles, already modified so that the "history" of Jesus matches the prophecies, already used to suppress other ideas regarding Christ's teachings, is edited again, and again, and again.

But we're supposed to blindly accept it as the indisputable word of God.

The primary difference between the Bible and the Book of Mormon is that we know there really was a con man by the name of Smith.

Quite frankly, I'm drifting towards a religious viewpoint in which God encapsulates truth and beauty. That sounds like a pretty reasonable God for a scientist to believe in; don't you think?

No, not really; you're assuming a relationship between truth and beauty that isn't supported by the available evidence.

Why is it that most religious trolls who come to these threads cannot spell P Z Myers properly? Is it something about his name that makes them afraid? Or is the juxtaposition of a consonant and a semi-vowel in the last name some kind of sign of the devil-spawn? Or is it perhaps indicative of the immediate response of any sane person to their stupid drivel, namely, "My arse!"?

Bolingo,

I hate to ask, but have you read the Bible? I mean, really read it. Word for word, using your own brain to figure out what it is saying? Because a lot of what it has to say is cruel and mean-spirited. And then there are parts that contradict other parts. Not to mention the parts that ae just plain contradicted by what we know to be scientific facts.

Yes, I know, there's a whole industry of biblical study devoted to smoothing away these problems, but that doesn't change the fact that if you read the Bible as it really is, it comes across as a bunch of mean-spirited stories, errors and distortions of the truth.

Most of us atheists, at least those of us that find ourselves in the Western world, have read the Bible; Either because we were raised by Christian parents, or because we wanted to fit in, or sometimes just out of morbid curiousity. But we read the Bible as it really is, without all of the filters that the Christian Churchs insist are necessary for a true understanding of the book. And we reject it. That's right, we actively reject what is written in that book.

Out of curiousity, have you read the Koran? Many of us here have equally read the texts of other religions. It opens the mind, and allows us to see certain patterns in God-Belief. We're quite into knowledge in these parts. You should try reading some other religious texts, and then re-read the Bible, all by yourself. It'll give you some new perspectives on what your own religious text is trying to say.

Peter 'dribbled:'

Wrong, the KJV is probably the worst translation since it was based on untrustworthy sources. The KJV is based on a Greek new testament put together by a man called Erasmus in the 12th century. It is now considered to be one of the poorer Greek new testaments due to the many flaws in Erasmus' work.

I suggest you read 'Misquoting Jesus' by biblical scholar and textual critic Bart Ehrman though I'm sure you won't because it might damage your certainty.

There are a few problems with your claim. First, Ehrman has some serious flaws with his arguments. Effectively the data isn't there to support his claims. This criticism has been made of his earlier works as well as Misquoting Jesus.

Second, I believe you are referring to Desiderius Erasmus (1466-1536) when you refer to "a man ... in the 12th century." Obviously, having been born in 1466, he would have a hard time translating the Bible in the 12th century, unless, of course, he ran into Mr. Peabody and his pet boy Sherman. Even so, your claim that his is considered one of the worst translations is quite false. His translation is not only the foundation for the King James Bible, it also was the foundation for Luther's translation into German, and the Geneva Bible (IE the foundation of Puritanism, etc.)

The funny thing is, the only reference I can find while searching for people who claim Erasmus' translation was poor, all refer back to the same book review by Doug Brown, who makes the exact same 12th century error that you do. Coincidence?

"Erasmus laid the egg that Luther hatched..."

Wow! I thought this was a'blog' not a'flog'. Such strong and personal attacks on someone who has a differing view! Reminds me of every other closed minded organization I have ever heard of that wants and tries to make the rest of the world go away.
I am new to blogging and I am not sorry to say I chose this forum to speak up for the faith that you have so unwittingly helped me to grow in.
I can not be your 'whipping post for the moment' blogger any more tonight, maybe tomorrow?
In the meantime, I love you all and wish you peace. Cause thats just the kind of mental patient I am. Now excuse me while I go outside to study the stars that aren't even there anymore. Wait a minute, something invisable just went by........

Addendum:

Not sure what happened to the italics from Peter's quote, but I most certainly am not recommending that you read "Misquoting Jesus." That was the end of his quote that, for some reason, the forum didn't include in the Italics:

I suggest you read 'Misquoting Jesus' by biblical scholar and textual critic Bart Ehrman though I'm sure you won't because it might damage your certainty.

Stupid lost Italics...[grumble]

Obviously, having been born in 1466, he would have a hard time translating the Bible in the 12th century, unless, of course, he ran into Mr. Peabody and his pet boy Sherman.

well, we are talking about the bible here, so anything goes.

Wow! I thought this was a'blog' not a'flog'.

"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition..."

LOL

how many times has some bible thumper gotten his proverbial ass kicked when they obviously were asking for it, then cried "I'm bein' repressed" as they ran out the door, crying?

If I had a nickel...

His translation is not only the foundation for the King James Bible, it also was the foundation for Luther's translation into German, and the Geneva Bible (IE the foundation of Puritanism, etc.)

you want to talk translation errors, go have gab at some Hebrew scholars.

they'll talk your damn ear off about how bad the KJV is as a translation of the "original hebrew", while they argue with themselves about the ten thousand damn different ideas as to what the "correct" Hebrew translation is.

give me a break.

the bible is no more "accurate" than would be any other oral/written cultural mythos and political ideology handed down over hundreds of years.

THAT'S the damn point, not whether someone who translated one version in one century did a good job or not.

Spaulding, comment # 80, and PZ, comment # 82:

"Wait, turning wine into water counts as a miracle too!?!

I do that all the time!"

"But is it better than the first?"

Another good Bible miracle gone South. I'm passing that on where it will percolate to churchgoers. Who will make themselves very unpopular when they start giggling in the middle of the sermon.
:D

Ichthyic,

If you look up to my comment #138, you'll find that we are quite in agreement. My point was simply to dispute the argument that the KJV is any more flawed than any of them. I couldn't leave a factually incorrect post about "a guy named Erasmus" out there when it implied that other versions of the Bible were any better than the KJV.

My point was simply to dispute the argument that the KJV is any more flawed than any of them.

I guess I've so often heard the argument that "the KJV is the most accurate translation of any ancient text on earth" from those asserting the authority of said book as a book of "truth", that I kneejerked into thinking I was seeing it yet again.

apologies.

I guess I've so often heard the argument that "the KJV is the most accurate translation of any ancient text on earth" from those asserting the authority of said book as a book of "truth", that I kneejerked into thinking I was seeing it yet again.

apologies.

No worries. In fact I think I may have misconstrued what Peter was trying to say myself. Still couldn't leave that historical gobbledygook out there. ;o)

I was working as a computer consultant for the Career Center. It was a pretty cool job. I'd write some software, modify hardware, or just do some light work such as deliver mail.

Maybe it's because I'm an IT-consultant, but somehow I find it doubtful that he was a "computer consultant", unless it's a glorified name for a computer administrator, who installs programs and hardware (and apparently some times delivers mail).

I have yet to meet anyone who both write software and modify hardware as a consultant (as a matter of fact, I've never meet any hardware modifying consultants at all). Yes, we some times install hardware, but that's hardly the same as modifying it.

Holy crap, PZ, you are getting more comments than Maddox gets hits on his website.

You are the official king of the internet!

PZ = King of Internet

Doesn't it feel good?

Please don't forget to put up cool squid pictures.

I do like them even more than the teasings of the religious.

If you can "call up" tunes in your head, can I put in a request for two operatic overtures?

Das Rheingold, and Die Zauberflöte?

Over to you big G!

No worries. In fact I think I may have misconstrued what Peter was trying to say myself. Still couldn't leave that historical gobbledygook out there. ;o)

You did indeed misconstrue. Thank you for the correction. I misread my sources for the date of Desiderius Erasmus Roterodamus' publication. Much of his source material was 12th century, not his publication which was in 1516.

BTW, I did get that date from the Doug Brown review. But the error was mine, not Brown's. Brown refers to material "collected from twelfth-century copies by Erasmus." Brown means that Erasmus collected material from the 12th century, not that he made the copies in the 12th century. Perhaps the sentence could have been better phrased.

I could have simply told bolingo that the accuracy of translation of a collection of ancient myths was beside the point, they are still myths. I chose instead to point out the particular problems of the KJV because it might be more likely to make a christian think. Call it framing, if you will.

Peter Holt: "Call it framing, if you will".

To quote Dr. Phil, how's that working for you?

hi dangerblond.

bolingo, if you truly are new to the internet, please accept a few words of advice kindly offered.

If you really want to engage atheists in discussion about religion, do not begin with the assumption that they don't know anything about it. That makes us mad. Because, you see, many atheists have studied the Bible a lot. Many have grown up in religious homes, and many have spent years being just as or more religious as you are now. Many know a lot more about the Bible than you do, because they haven't just read the passages their pastor told them to, but read the whole thing in detail, researched its history, etc. Did you ever learn about the Council of Nicea at church? Do you know why the Bible contains the books that it does? How about the Dead Sea Scrolls, which very much postdate your beloved KJV? Did you learn about them at church? Most churches are quite lacking in Biblical scholarship. So please don't assume that you know more about it than anyone else.

Please also don't assume that all a person needs to do is to read it and suddenly they will see the light. Not going to work, because again, most atheists who are passionate enough about it to comment on a blog post already have. Most evangelical witnessing takes as a main tenet the idea that anyone who isn't a Christian simply doesn't know enough about it. They haven't heard. Or they haven't heard it right. Strong atheists of the type you'll find here have, they've just found the evidence wanting. You've stumbled not just upon a den of atheists, but of scientifically minded atheists. Your own personal conversion story isn't very convincing. Your appeals to a book that is known to be rife with errors isn't very convincing. If you want to be heard, you have to provide actual evidence.

Finally, don't assume that people here are just mean and like to pick on Christians. There may be a fair amount of name-calling, but what people are really attacking is your lack of any support for your statements. Don't run away and cry oppression just because they make you back up what you say. There are Christians who post here regularly who are quite admired; watch for awhile and see how they operate.

I am new to blogging and I am not sorry to say I chose this forum to speak up for the faith that you have so unwittingly helped me to grow in.

Do you happen to know a guy named Nisbet?

I am new to blogging and I am not sorry to say I chose this forum to speak up for the faith that you have so unwittingly helped me to grow in.

So, because people might be nasty to you, you're going to believe in nothing even harder? Not a very bright one.

If a radio plays in a Sushi place, and there is no one around to wish for a song to play, is there music?

One of the things that really convinced me that religion was bunk was when a very close friend developed schizophrenia. Almost overnight he went from a pretty reasonable person to a hardcore Christian. It was an immensely sad thing to watch--his mind that worked normally before had become warped so quickly. And religion was one of his most vocal delusions.

I'm grateful to say he recovered fully, and is now a chemistry master's student and cheerful atheist!

Katie: "Recovered fully"? That is good news. I'm curious - is he taking any meds to support his recovery?

Bolingo said, "For me, the funniest thing of all is that most atheists have never read the Bible. How can you be against a God you know about through only the Internet? The Bible is not just a book like 'Alice though the Looking Glass'. You have to know about authenticated history, symbolism, realism, God Speak, comparative scripture, parabolic language, past and present political turmoil, as well as the cultures and religions of many societies."

I was born and raised a fundie. I went to Bible school and became a preacher. So, I've read the Bible a few times.

I've read over 100 books on just the kinds of topics you think I need to know to understand the scriptures. I am no longer a believer because this study has convinced me that the Bible is crap.

This change from believer to non-believer was painful and is not recommended for the faint of heart. It takes courage to challenge your world view. Most of us here know this. You seem to think we are lazy, thoughtless hedonists who don't want to believe in God because it would harsh our buzz. No, we tend to details. We don't take another's word but would rather know for ourselves.

Yes, those of us who challenged our old beliefs are courageous. It is much easier to believe in a pleasant afterlife and have all your beliefs spoon fed to you by trustworthy "Biblical scholars" but some of us would rather do the initial hard work of challenging this nonsense and reap the benefits of a life based on reason and reality.

A quote from Homer Simpson kind of sums up my thoughts on religion. "Oh, look at me! I'm making people happy! I'm the magical man - from Happyland! In a gum-drop house on Lollypop Lane! ... Oh, by the way, I was being sarcastic."

It is my belief that most of these wack-job "testimonials" are cooked up after the fact. Somehow, one becomes "born again" (in my experience with friends and family, usually due to desparation following some acute stress, either financial or relationship). Knowing how crazy the whole thing is for a rational person to swallow, they make up some tale of supernatural happenings to make it seem like they are being reasonable. "I know all this God/Christ stuff sounds absurd, but then God told me what was up and I had to believe!"

It's a strange way to try to get people off your back, but that's what I think it is, largely. That and to score points among other Christers.

We also encourage people to actually read the bible. It's a great evangelical tool for atheism

Well, really, the bible is a funny thing. Believers read it and it confirms their beliefs that god is all-powerful and really really loves them, etc etc etc. Atheists read it and think a) 'Yuk!' and b) 'WTF?'. Therefore one can only conclude that it is in fact a magical text that can rearrange the letters on the page according to the pre-existing notions of the reader, but in such a way that we all still think we're talking about the same words. Perhaps it's something to do with that pesky dude Satan and his minions.

Yeah...he's slowly reducing his dosage. I also simplified the diagnosis a bit...he had a related disorder to schizophrenia--it's a delusional disorder--but he was lucky enough to get one that has a reasonably high recovery rate.

Either way, he's been really stable for 2+ years :). There's some risk of relapse, but so far he's been really good.

You know...the biggest thing that we noticed when he started getting sick was his conviction he was right. There was no way to possibly convince him he was wrong, whether the topic was aliens monitoring our thoughts or Jesus returning. I grew up in a fundie church...and it reminded me so much of that.

Kausik Datta (#139), as another (unrelated) Myers, I can tell you that everyone misspells the name. I don't know why, either, since our spelling is 3-4 times more common than the version with two "e"s, and is shared by a few relatively famous people (Michael Myers, Richard Myers, Dee-Dee Myers) as well as a city in Florida (Fort Myers... which, it so happens, was recently misspelled in a Comedy Central commercial as "Meyers").

Katie...

the biggest thing that we noticed when he started getting sick was his conviction he was right. There was no way to possibly convince him he was wrong, whether the topic was aliens monitoring our thoughts or Jesus returning.

Ohhhhhh yeah, those well-defended delusions. I knew a guy whose claim was as follows: "The CIA is watching me. No, of course you can't see them! Of course the microphones and cameras are hidden! It's the CIA for godssake! They're not going to show themselves!"

In a word: Unfalsifiable.

Just the other day we touched on the "religious belief as delusional disorder" thing (stemming from Dawkins' TGD) and in the DSM, religious belief is specifically exempted, as are beliefs that are widely and generally held in the culture. It's telling that religous beliefs must be explicitly exempted from consideration when making a diagnosis. I wonder if this applies to claims about Thor or Zeus.

Sure, thunder is the sound of rapidly expanding air superheated by lightning. But it's Thor who's behind the lightning. Oh - well, yeah, lightning is a tremendous static discharge between a cloud and the ground, but it's Thor who's behind the ionization in the first place. No, of course you can't see Thor. Thor is a God. Duh!

Compare and contrast with "It was God who saved that one child on the bus from dying along with the other 33 who drowned when the bridge collapsed. Praise Him and His mercy!"

Just the other day we touched on the "religious belief as delusional disorder" thing (stemming from Dawkins' TGD) and in the DSM, religious belief is specifically exempted, as are beliefs that are widely and generally held in the culture. It's telling that religous beliefs must be explicitly exempted from consideration when making a diagnosis. I wonder if this applies to claims about Thor or Zeus.

This probably stems from the fact that psychiatry, psychology and parts of medicine (I'm thinking about the thread that became all about genital mutilation and how we neglect surgeries on intersexed infants whose clitoris may be deemed too large or penis too small) are normative fields. Often, the goal of treatment is the creation of "normal people."

"This probably stems from the fact that psychiatry, psychology and parts of medicine (I'm thinking about the thread that became all about genital mutilation and how we neglect surgeries on intersexed infants whose clitoris may be deemed too large or penis too small) are normative fields." - MAJeff

I'm not sure I can agree with that. When this friend of mine got sick, we were at a liberal arts university. So many people said that mental illness "is just another way of looking at the world" and that psychiatry is just a normative field.

You know what? You wouldn't think that if you saw a close friend get sick really quickly. When you see someone's whole personality change in a few weeks and how scared they get, you really have little patience for that opinion.

Things go wrong in the brain and body. Psychiatry and medicine can help fix those things. Never have I, in my conversations with my friend's psychiatrist, ever heard anything about making him "normal". What they were most concerned about was helping him function as well as he could, given his illness.

katie: both/and

I can see MAJeff's point. He's probably thinking of the bad old days (which may be the bad current days in some rural areas) where gays were subjected to psychiatric and psychological procedures to try to make them "normal," i.e., not gay. That was odious to say the least.

However, many people with real disorders have been helped by modern therapies, as Katie indicates. Psychotherapy has also helped many gay people come to terms with who they are, get over feelings of shame and low self-esteem, and lead proud, productive lives.

Sometimes it isn't helpful to filter everything through one lens.

again, both/and

I'm not arguing completely against these fields. I've been in therapy and taken anti-depressants to make it possible for me to get out of bed and function.

However, a lot of stuff is also very much based in normative judgments, as Kseniya mentioned with religion.

Jeff, yes - or, at least, the creation of adequately functional people. I can drink as many liver-and-strawberry frappes as I want and play my Insane Clown Posse and Britney Spears backwards mix tapes (simultaneously, of course) while hanging upside down in honor of the great goddess Inversia the Maloriented, and who's going to commit me if I show myself to be a functioning member of society who presents no danger to myself or to others? :-)

I know I'm revealing more about myself than I intended to here *cough* but... Well, you're right, of course. The point I was making about the implications of the definions of "delusion" in the DSM is that the normalcy of religious belief is wholly dependent on its ubiquity and is, apart from this exemption, delusional in psychological terms.

Consider the irony that many people whose beliefs benefit from (and maintain normalcy via) this exemption claim, based on those beliefs, that homosexuality is abnormal, despite the fact that the APA dropped Homosexuality from the DSM some 35 years ago and therefore considers homosexuality psychologically normal - and not by way of exemption based on mere ubiquity.

Oops, I'm lagging. #174 was in response to #169. I agree with Katie and Mme. Pomfrey's elaborations.

Good point madam.

It might even be a Canada/US health system difference thing. Up here in the Great White North, our mental health facilities are underfunded and overburdened. In my experience, the doctors are great people, but they don't have the time or funding to deal with people who aren't really sick. They aren't going to arbitrarily put someone into a hospital or prescribe medication that isn't really necessary. Hell, it's hard finding a hospital bed for someone who -is- really sick.

Normative type judgments, I would think, are more likely in issues that are not clear-cut illnesses. And honestly, I think the doctors up here really don't have the time for them.

#94:

The Snopes page indicates that Harvey got the story second hand himself. It's likely that he heard the story on campus and just accepted it uncritically.

My own alma mater has a number of local legends like a burning ghost that get passed down from one class to the next. Some people seem to take them seriously. I think others just think they're good yarns.

Normative type judgments, I would think, are more likely in issues that are not clear-cut illnesses. And honestly, I think the doctors up here really don't have the time for them.

Part of the issue, that both Kseniya and I pointed to, though, is how such normative judgments are embedded within the practices of these fields (in DSM definitions, for example), which will also include training.

I'm not blasting the fields, which someone will accuse me of, I'm sure, in the way that Scientologists will. But, I think it's also useful to analyze these fields as realms of social practice and to understant how judgments are made and institutionalized.

Why oh why do these people insist on using the bible as evidence?
Wait...I thought about listening to Chet Baker and what did ya know? I found a song in iTunes! "smirk"

How can you be against a God you know about through only the internet?
Come to think of it, I did run into Him on J-date . . . but seriously: a) we're not "against" the Christian God, any more than we're against any of the others, and any more than you are against Zeus or Thor. We just see no reason to believe in them, as you have no reason to believe in those two fine fellows. And while some of us may be very knowledgeable re: what your tradition and/or others says about God/s, and others less so, it boils down to that - we don't see any reason to believe in 'em, and similarly no reason to think that any group or text has such a reason hidden away. {Shrugs}

"It is also quite humorous that even self-named atheistic scientists use the Bible as a time line tool"
I'm guessing you mean the historic Western convention of using the BC/AD system, as in the "2007" heading this post. Of course, depending where you look, that may be replaced by BCE/CE, or alternately, BP (before present - archaeology, etc: rather frighteningly, the present is here defined as 1950) - or the related kya/mya/bya (thousand/million/billion years ago), for geology, paleontology, etc. Two things:

1) This is an rather annoyingly dumb argument - you do understand it's a social convention, not an affirmation of belief, right? Maybe the folks who insist on opposing trivial expressions of god-belief (god bless you!, etc.) do have a point . . .

2) It is also quite humorous that even self-named Christian commenters use Old Norse/Germanic paganism to demarcate the days of the week (ie, Tyr's day, Woden's day, etc.)! Ha ha ha - yeah, that is an annoyingly stupid point, isn't it?

On the other hand, it is telling that he spelled Carnegie Mellon wrong.

But, I think it's also useful to analyze these fields as realms of social practice and to understant how judgments are made and institutionalized.

True to an extent...it's also important to remember that not everything humans are involved with can automatically be categorized as a relative, subjective social construct. I understand that this subjectivist view is a backlash against many years of bestowing scientific fiat on flawed social/religious conventions, and it's immensely valuable to examine unacknowledged social influences on policymaking...but the pendulum can also swing too far in the opposite direction. I see too many of my colleagues in the humanities characterizing physical-science research, for example, as a "masculinist ism" and "just another way of knowing." (The fact that they don't understand jack about what that research consists of doesn't help matters.) Like the creationists, they'll compartmentalize, taking the cholesterol drugs with impunity while decrying the so-called "male-dominated scientist machine" that created them.

All that being said -- these folks have no political power and almost no visibility outside the English and/or cultural-studies departments, and the dominionist "neocon blackguards of Washington" (to memorably quote Richard Dawkins) are a far greater threat with their money and political influence. I notice these types because they tend to be rather vocal with their silliness at my university, but they're not likely to cause a cultural or economic downfall anytime soon. :-)

Yeah. "Car... genie... melon..." kinda says it all.

And Jeff, for Pyotr's sake, quit bashing... errr... what was it again?

Sorry, meant to quote that first paragraph above.

And Jeff, for Pyotr's sake, quit bashing... errr... what was it again?

Hell if I know.

Why do the Christians like Comic Sans so much?

It's part of PZ's new kook template.

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BTW, all that "I had to believe" stuff goes against Catholic dogma. Free will and all.

Whatever was going on in the conversion story-writer's head, what's interesting (and perhaps why this piece is being spammed around, if that's the case - google reveals it does seem to be associated with a specific individual) is that these kind of experiences are being specifically encouraged within many evangelical churches. Anthropologist Tanya Luhrmann's written about this - I'm in a hurry, so I'm just going to start quoting:
- from a review (pdf) of Metakinesis: How God Becomes Intimate in Contemporary U.S. Christianity (American Anthropogist 106.2004/3: 518-52) "But it is at least as important that the new U.S. religious practices put intense spiritual experience - above all, trance - at the heart of the relationship with God. The most interesting anthropological phenomenon in U.S. evangelical Christianity is precisely that it is not words alone that convert: Instead, congregants - even in ordinary middle class suburbs - learn to have out-of-the-ordinary experiences and to use them to develop a remarkably intimate, personal God. This God is not without majesty. But He has become a pal.

In these new and intensely experiential U.S. evangelisms, God becomes an intimate relationship - a buddy, a confidant, the ideal boyfriend. It is not mere words that make Him so but learnt techniques of identifying the presence of God through the body's responses - particularly in the absorbed state we call "trance" - and learned techniques that frame that responsiveness into the experience of close relationship.

. . . In identifying metakinetic states, congregants identify - and, thus, psychologically organize - bodily phenomena that seem new and distinctive to them, which they come to interpret in ways that are congruent with the group's understanding of evidence of God's real reality in their lives. They seem to be engaging a variety of bodily processes that are integrated in new ways and synthesized into a new understanding of their bodies and the world. Some of these processes can be called "dissociative," in which attentional focus is narrowed and manipulated to produce noticeable shifts in conscious awareness, so that individuals feel that they are floating or not in control of their bodies. Others involve sensory hallucinations, in which people see or hear things that observers do not. There are specific and dramatic mood elevations, in which individuals are self-consciously and noticeable happier for extended periods of time. As a result of these phenomena, congregants literally perceive the world differently and they attribute that difference to the presence of God."

Or, from an 2006 article on "Learning Religion At The Vineyard:
Prayer, Discernment And Participation In The Divine (pdf):
"The experience of participation arises through prayer, and in particular, through
two features of the way prayer is taught and learned.
First, people are encouraged to interpret God's presence in the everyday flow of
their own awareness and to seek in it evidence that they might be hearing a voice spokenby another being. Under the influence of this cultural encouragement, people look for movement in their peripheral vision, and interpret it as the flash of an imp. They shift their attention from the fan to the computer, and wonder whether perhaps they hear a distant angelic choir. . . .
. . . Second, congregants are encouraged to engage in specific practices that lead them to become absorbed in their own thoughts. This is a different kind of psychological phenomenon than the mere application of cognitive concepts to memory and experience. Practices which create greater absorption lead the subject to attend to internal phenomena and to disattend to external sensory stimulus. All of us go into light absorption states when we settle into a book and let the story carry us away. . . . as the absorption grows deeper, the person becomes more difficult to distract, and his sense of time and agency begins to shift. He lives within his imagination more, whether that be simple mindfulness or elaborate fantasy, and he feels that the experience happens to him, that he is a bystander to his own awareness, more himself than ever before, or perhaps absent, but in any case different . . ."

Now, we're not talking individual cases of mental aberration here: there's no reason to think the folks Lurhmann observed are any more or less sane than any other group of people participating in powerful ritual practices. One interesting question is why such practices have become popular: I think that sort of question may have a bit to do with why, when it comes to the recent ongoing debate about how science should deal with religion, most/all of the anthro and other social science folks involved seem to end upresponding rather differently from the PZ/Dawkins/etc. 'position'. Back to that article review: "What may be happening is that these congregants and others like them are using an ease with trancelike phenomena supported by our strange new absorbing media [TV, Internet, iPods, etc,] and using it to build an intensely intimate relationship with God to protect them against the isolation of modern social life [Putman's 'Bowling Alone' argument]. After all, the most striking consequence of these new religious practices is the closely held sense of a personal relationship with God, and this God is always there, always listening, always responsive, and always with you. And the experience of faith for these Christians is a process through which
the loneliest of conscious creatures comes to experience themselves as in a world awash with love."

Whether one seeks to end, marginalize, contain, restrain, accomodate, or simply understand religion, these sorts of questions are pretty important. One might note - if this interpretation is correct - that we're not currently offering much competition when it comes to meeting such needs, etc.

even containing repetitions of the same book, written by different authors, no less.

even containing repetitions of the same book, written by the same author, no less. Compare and contrast 2 Kings 19 with Isaiah 37.

Oh, and while you're at it, explain the last sentence of 2 Chronicles. (Hint: read the first three verses of Ezra.)

Why are all my comments going into moderation suddenly? Did I accidentally skip an offering to the squid gods or something?

I've found that if you have more than one link in a post, it tends to go to moderation.

other than that...

?

Makes me glad I DID rebel against religion as a teen... I've had that thinking about songs and they suddenly come on the radio and hearing voices bit too. Haven't heard them in a long time either... and look! I'm not the least bit religious!

I'm back. Just because you think you know me by the conversations you have had with Christians doesn't make it so. However, I do not distance myself from other Christians as long as they are not hurting anyone. FYI: I did not run away, it was almost 3 in the morning. I do not consider myself to be a born again Christian. I held my beliefs a good 20 years before anyone decided to name it that. I do not go to Church. It is dangerous for ANYONE to google a subject like the Bible and come up with random verses without subjecting it to an informed study, I can not take that seriously. I am in favor of a separation of Church and State, but would like to see a basic shared morality in the U.S. in my time. When I say basic I am not speaking of the state imposing specifics of sex, religion,etc. I am speaking of our basic rights as human beings seeking equality and quality of life. I am not a religious person and understand that past and present RELIGIOUS PRACTICES have led to murder. It is no better to be religious about atheism than any other belief system that requires the practice of dehumanizing our fellow companions on this planet. The Bible does not magically change wording, you have to be able to understand what is written with love. Among many other things, one must understand how God uses repetitions in certain numbers to complete passages. This should take nothing away from your intelligence. We are deeply misled if we think we know everything about everything, I certainly don't, I am certain you will agree with that statement. For that reason it would be futile for me to quote verses. It would be taken in the wrong context. I was simply stating a few facts about the Bible that appeared misunderstood by the previous blogger. I am not out to convert anyone. That is Gods' business. Consider the Bible and faith as evidence of things unseen. The dead sea scrolls are gnostic text, received by a denomination of the faith at the time and of course I have also read these books. Some of these passages are clearly in agreement with the Bible and the Bible does not forbid reading. I did not realize that suggested reading would be so offensive. There have been statements made that clearly show lack of complete study of the Bible. I took to heart the serious readings suggested and I won't be glossing over those studies.
I came upon this web site in a search to understand the iso-geno hyper-mathematics of anti gravity, a favorite of our editor, I believe. I had no idea I had fallen into an atheists site when I began on this blog. My understanding was that this was a site attempting to understand the unseen and unexplainable through scientific study and evidence.
I pray that we all seek understanding through differences we share. I humbly thank God for those differences.
I wanted to thank Carly for the information, and all who responded for their thoughts. Peace.

I'm back. Just because you think you know me by the conversations you have had with Christians doesn't make it so.

so says the one, True, Scottsman.

*yawn*

[bolingo writes a chunk of text expounding fairly standard liberal Christianity, with a faint whiff of numerology. Then:]

I came upon this web site in a search to understand the iso-geno hyper-mathematics of anti gravity

Wait. Whut?

My understanding was that this was a site attempting to understand the unseen and unexplainable through scientific study and evidence.

Madness? THIS... IS... SPART PHARYNGULAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

Owlmirror #194:
Maybe he's just trying to frame his message to his perceived audience?

It's a fashionable technique, I hear.

Why is Bolingo talking like a victorian dweeb?

Bolingo, this might be a news flash.

Most of us were raised christian and have read the bible. We're really familiar with the inconsistencies and hypocrisy. A major reason why we gave it up. It doesn't make alot of sense. It's mostly nonsense written by men.

Why is Bolingo talking like a victorian dweeb?

practice?

bull-lingo,

You say you aren't religious or a Christian yet you seem to hold the Bible in such high regard. You aren't in to converting anyone because that's God's job.

What did you convert to if you have no religion? Is it a homemade concoction of some kind?

It's kind of like you rejected a large part of religion yet couldn't bring yourself to reject it all. Sad, really.
You're so close. Just allow yourself to see the contradictions, lies and errors that the Bible is full of and you can begin to build a better life.

By the way, the Dead Sea Scrolls are not gnostic texts but the Nag Hammadi Library certainly is. The Dead Sea Scrolls were probably written by a Jewish sect called the Essenes.

Maybe your knowledge of the Bible isn't what you think it is. No matter, it's an interesting book but certainly not one of importance for your life.

bolingo is just trying to win the 500,000th comment contest. If he succeeds in thus besting all of us in this lion's den of atheism, that will prove that God exists.

Oh, damn, he's not providing an email address. And unfortunately, I'm not someone who can go on believing a proposition after it has been so obviously falsified.

Or, since I'm still learning and email addresses don't get posted after all, maybe that is it...

I really wish an ABBA marathon upon him.

I wish a Hagar Van Halen Marathon on him....

Meyers, I am getting tired of you trivializing the
POWER and MAJESTY of the LORD GOD! I have been a Pastor for many years and a Senior Pastor at Landover Baptist for eight and I can tell you that GOD speaks to me EVERY DAY and He uses different voices on different days. That's how I know it is GOD and not some government mind-control ray.

You may not be able to hear GOD yourself, but that proves nothing! You can't hear what whales say when submarines blast them with a million watts of sonar at point-blank range either, but that does not disprove the existence of submarines!

Son, Landover Baptist is waiting for you to open your wallet and find JESUS! Just click that PayPal button at the bottom of our site and GOD may let your loved ones live a little longer.

best regards
Pastor Al

Why do the Christians like Comic Sans so much?

It's part of PZ's new kook template.

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BTW, all that "I had to believe" stuff goes against Catholic dogma. Free will and all.