Great Christina explains why there's nothing with atheists being angry. We've got cause.
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My blood pressure just went up considerably.
@$&^@$*&^@$&^!! You left out the damn 'wrong with'!! *(&*(^^*#^$&^@*&^
What?
that was a great piece.
It's really hard for me to guess at just how angry I would be if the country I lived in prevented me from marrying whoever i choose to. Hell, it makes me angry enough that the country I live in makes it illegal for other people to marry who they choose to.
saved it for future reference.
there's nothing with atheists being angry
uh, you mean there's nothing wrong with atheists being angry, right?
Brilliant.
Reading that article just made me excessivley angry. I was already pissed of by a friend blogging about how much of an annoying militant athiest Dawkins is (and me, by extension, as every claim she leveled against him could be applied to myself) without having ever read his books. I was more sad then angry then I read this post and now I'm fuming XD
Yes, and it's 'Greta Christina', though she'll likely accept the compliment.
I'm more of a continuously irritated atheist, myself.
That is a great blog entry. My only minor complaint was the lack of sources cited in a couple areas. (Like the quote from GHWB, for example). Assuming all of it was true, though, hell yeah - atheists have the right to be pissed - because most of what she brings up are fundamental, basic rights issues. I'm not an atheist (oh boy... here it comes...) but I was pissed. I also liked the "cosmic shopping list" observations. That actually made me laugh.
Oh - Jerry Falwell is a flipping tool. People like him (as well as many of the other religious atrocities Greta mentions - children being molested by priests, etc) provide easy fodder for atheists - or anyone who is not on the far far right.
My biggest concern is the fact that I do strongly believe there are more moderate people in this country than religious-righties - and that they're either too intimidated (by people on the fringes) or simply too damn lazy to enter into the fray and work together with people on the basis of commonalities (like the fact we're all humans - duh) to address a lot of the problems Greta pointed out. Instead, people are too angry - and to Greta's point, anger can distort your message and put people off who might otherwise be allies in the fight.
It is easy to be an angry atheist; there are so many things to be angry about.
A few years ago I had to go to the local casualty department after an accident that left me with a badly cut hand. The reception nurse took the usual details - name, address, family doctor, etc. Then she asked: "What religion are you?".
I told her I had no religion, and she replied, "I'll just put C of E".
I protested that I am not a member of the Church of England or any other church and I do not believe in any god.
"Too late now," she said, "I've already written it down".
Unfortunately I was in too much pain as I was watching my blood seep out through the large towel wrapped around my hand to be able to argue too much.
So there you have it. Possibly the worst insult an atheist could have: being labeled as a Christian on my permanent medical record. At least my recovery was thanks to the doctor's skill with a needle and thread rather than any prayers.
Now, don't get me started about school teachers...
What? They record your religion on a medical record in the USA?
I mean, I could* understand "Jehovah's Witness" vs "not" being recorded, but... please.
* If in a sufficiently cynic mood...
What she said. Perfect. That's it.
David, I assume England, not US, since I don't imagine the Church of England has a lot of churches in the US.
Yes, I am in England. That's the place where schools are obliged to give religious instruction of "a broadly Christian nature."
Like I said - don't get me started on school teachers...
Great list.
Stupid, stupid, stupid people.
Respecting religion is respecting stupidity.
NEVER!
Oopsie.
Still surprises me, of course...
Aren't the Episcopalians the same as the Church of England? Isn't the name the only difference?
Hospitals in the US do the same thing. Here in Orlando Florida your two choices for hospitals are both private. The larger of the two (Florida Hospital) is owned and operated by Seven Day Advetists. When entering the ER you are asked what religion you are. When this happened to me I was scared they'd let me die on the table had I told the truth. The hallways are lined with bible quotes and picture of jesus too.
Nothing gets me angry like a sanctimonious asswipe telling me that I shouldn't be so angry, especially when I wasn't acting angry in the sense we usually mean it. And it just adds to their whole smug piety that they're probably the least qualified people in the world to comment on my mental state, since the religious people of the world are the child-molesting, gay-beating, war-mongering, bomb-toting, fatwa-spouting antithesis of "well-adjusted". To them I usually reply, "I wasn't angry, but you're making me angry now."
And they shouldn't make me angry. They won't like me when I'm angry. Smug make Dustin smash.
Concerning #8, truthilicious, Bush 41 did indeed say that. I already disliked him for his part in the Reagan administration and the first Iraq War. For me, that was a fat rotted cherry plopped on top of a melted shit flavored sundae.
It's so nice to know I am not alone in my absolute rage at pretty much everything happening around me.
#16:
Yes, Episcopal = Anglican = C of E, but (a) it's not called C of E in the U.S. (except by expatriate British nurses, perhaps?), and (b) is there anywhere in the U.S. where this would be considered the default religion?
"I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
GEORGE H.W. BUSH, news conference, Aug. 27, 1987
This is a well-known and often-cited bit of idiocy blabbed by GHWB.
http://www.notable-quotes.com/b/bush_george_h_w.html
RE: 8 and 19, My understanding was Bush SENIOR got the words "atheist" and "anarchist" confused, but since he had some brains (relativly speaking), I suppose he really meant what he said.
Humph! I have met some anarchists who believed in some sort of deities. (Tolstoy was a christian anarchist, check out 'The Kingdom Of God Is Within You'.) And it seems most of the people here support some form of government. If that was confusion, it is born of bias. Adds to my dislike of all things 'Bush'.
The full quote, with context, make it very clear that he is talking about atheists:
Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists?
Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me.
Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?
Ladies and gentlemen, the former leader of the Free World!
Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.
That is just so warm and fuzzy. A "leader" who is implying that certain people are not entitled to full human rights; "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens..." Nothing to get angry over.
What a stupid post. Not one mention of things in the Muslim world. In fact when the Muslim world gets a mention she is feeling bad for a Muslim girl. Maybe that Muslim girl would have done well to ditch her own delusions and fantasies and been able to give that teacher a real reply.
Not a word about honor killing (over 5,000 a year) in the Mid East or about the general status of women there as chattel. 9/11 gets one line. Not a mention of any one of the Mullahs, Clerics, or imams who issue insane fatwas, execute gays, execute dissidents, and execute and arrest women for uncovering their wrists. But George Bush, Falwell, Haggard, and the pope all get done over thouroughly.
Typical blinkered feminist cant. If you want to increase the respect people have for atheists then try to cultivate a real ethical consciousness and not just use it as a prism through which to focus your own cultural self loathing.
#22:
Bush SENIOR is GHWB; no one said anything about junior--why the emphasis?
No; as #24 demonstrates, it was explicitly about atheists.
Atheist: No, I don't know that the Bushes should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. They should be charged as enemy combatants and detained indefinitely.
Tulse - thanks for digging that up (#24). I appreciate it.
:)
BillC:
I believe the reasons that Muslims aren't often mentioned in these rants is that they're such an easy target.* They're the reason that everyone in America is angry. This post was about why atheists are angry, and it has everything to do with the hold that Christianity has on our culture and government, one that Islam does not have.
I'm sure if you were to comment at her actual blog, you could have her explain her post, although I don't know how keen she will be to entertain you after seeing her heartfelt grievances about not being able to marry her life partner being denounced as "typical feminist cant".
* And if you really need to stroke your Muslim hatred so badly, there are plenty of other blogs that specialize in that.
I feel obligated to point out that this quote (and the incident itself) is controversial, and under dispute among what could be called "the atheist community" (ie atheists who belong to organizations). There is no direct backup documentation, Bush Sr. will neither confirm or deny, and Rob Sherman himself is not always considered a reliable source.
I've read the critiques on its legitimacy (all from atheists), and I'm now agnostic on it. I don't use it anymore.
But Greta Christina's essay was excellent -- and if she reads these comments Bill_C I'm sure she's already banging her head against something for forgetting to mention specific Muslim atrocities against reason and women -- which no doubt piss her off enormously and on a regular basis. After all, she did warn us that she'd forgotten important stuff.
I have duly copied my post.
"And if you really need to stroke your Muslim hatred so badly, there are plenty of other blogs that specialize in that."
That is truly bizarre. What I said about Muslims was pretty normal compared to what passes in the comments section of this blog about Christians. They deserve mockery and contempt but why would you ever try to dismiss me as "stroking my Muslim hatred" when Muslims are BY ORDERS WORSE than anything here. You attempt to dismiss me as pathetically nursing a hatred (against people who merit it far more frequently and normally) but the groupthink hate sessions against Christians here constitute intelligent, legitimate discussion?!!!
You problem is that you suffer from a form of latent racism. You apparently think that Muslims can't help it but we should know better. They are easier targets? How the hell can you have an easier target than Ted Haggard or Falwell? It has nothing to do with easier targets. It has everything to do with the fact that Greta Christina is a selfish, insular, cloistered, dogmatic, ideological hack.
5,000 (known) honor killings a year. With laws that protect the murderers and no shortage of appluading crowds. Maybe that was one of the important things she forgot to mention but I guess pointing out the hypocrisy of a smarmy red-neck preacher getting blown by a gigalo while snorting meth took precedence.
Bill C., this reminds me of the complaint "How can you be so concerned about X when conditions are so bad in Y?" As if X is not worthy of discussion as long as there is something EVEN WORSE going on. What right do I have to be upset over my pending bankruptcy when there are people living on $2/day in the world! How can we be concerned about Iraq with what's going on in Darfur? What right do you have to complaint about having the flu and secondary pneumonia and two weeks in the hospital when there is someone dying of cancer in the same building?? How can you complain as a US citizen about US Christians and their affect on US atheists when there are MUSLIMS to take on??
Bill C, right now the Christian fuckheads (which one can only assume you identify with due to your pathetic foot stomping and whining about how unfair it is) are in charge of this country so THEY are the ones doing the most on a daily basis to piss off atheists. As soon as the Muslims are in charge, I'm sure that all of the atheists who have been spared the sword will be angry at THEM. And then beheaded. For what it's worth, I detest all religions pretty much equally and find them containing an equal bullshit factor, on the whole. Your is just the stupidity that's closest to home.
--Wolfie, at home fighting off pneumonia so not feeling favorably disposed toward Trolls-4-Jeezus at the moment
Bill C. wrote
I agree. But I don't think that means Greta Christina is "selfish, insular, or cloistered." She was on a rant, wrote quickly, and went for what affected her personally.
Most atheists are also very angry at people who think that Christian fundamentalists are horrible, but give a free pass to people from other religions who do things that are worse, but oh no, we have to respect their cultures and not impose our Western values on them. At least, I get very, very, VERY angry at that. I bet Greta C. does too. And Ayaan Hirsi Ali. And Ophelia Benson. And Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens. And a bunch of the rest of us. We are enraged.
Can't we all just get together and agree to be angry?
Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.
Hello dear and lovely Bill C. Guess what, I also dislike Muslim theocracies. In fact, I know I would have been locked up or murdered if I lived in one of those places. But I am fortunate enough to not been born there. Just because life is not a living hell for people like me does here in the west does not mean I cannot get angry with people who think I should be treated as less than human by those who dislike queers and atheists.
Also, how dare you accuse some feminist atheists of having a soft spot for Islam. You are tossing out accusations. Here is one for you. I remember reading plenty about the Taliban and their murderous treatment of women (and humanity in general) from feminist sources. Where were the conservative voices against that antihuman theocracy.
Yes, Bill C. You made me angry.
"A man without religion is like a fish without a bicycle."
(...which is apparently the original formulation of the "fish/bicycle" trope. Cthulhu bless you, Google!)
"At least, I get very, very, VERY angry at that. I bet Greta C. does too. "
Oh, but you have to say it every time you post something about religion on the internet, or else petulant little dipsticks like Bill will think you're soft on Wahabism. And if you're a woman, they'll call you a feminist.
Oh? And what are over-used platitudes without their original context?
Also, for the sake of Bill C, this was one of the most infuriating things I have read in the last year. I sure as hell will be very angry if this crept into the US.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,474629,00.html
C'mon Billy
come to me
you know I'm waiting
I love you endlessly
c'mon Billy
you're the only one
don't you think it's time now
you met your only son
I remember
lover's play
the corn was golden
we lay in it for days
I remember
the things you said
my little Billy
come to your lover's bed
Come home
is my plea
your home now
is here with me
come home
to your son
tommorrow might never come
Come on Billy
you look good to me
how many nights now
your child inside of...
don't forget me
I had your son
damn thing went crazy
but I swear you're the only one
Come alone, Billy, now come to me
come alone, Billy, now come to me
come alone, Billy, now come to me
come alone, Billy, now come to me
come alone, Billy, now come to me
come alone, Billy, now come to me
come alone, Billy, now come to me
come alone, and come to me
Hey Billy, this was a more entertaining non sequitur.
I don't know how anyone would get the impression I am religious. I will chalk it up to an aversion to nuance in the brain of 35 who seems to think that anyone who thinks Islam is a bigger problem must be a fundie Christian.
But I am sorry to disabuse you of the illusion that Christian fundamentalism is as big a problem as Islam. The Christian fundies conduct themselves within the boundaries of civil law. They are peaceful and even the most fanatical (minus the reconstructionists) don't advocate the return of policies which are common practice in the Muslim world.
Yes atheist feminists do have a soft spot for Islam because they are almost invariably Marxists who have a soft spot for anyone who has been victimized by colonialism and will patronize their stupidity. The soft spot isn't explicitly mentioned but it the length and format of her post make it seem like it is an attempt at an exhaustive list, and 9/11 gets one line and the barbaric practices of the Middle East get no mention. I find it odd that people of her ideological persuasion are more interested in highlighting the plight of the Palestinians who treat their women like animals than in maybe trying to dispell the phantasmagorical inanity that motivates them to bomb and murder inhabitants of a secular society were women are equals with men.
Much less the Christians do not control America, and it is indicative of the simple minded groupthink that #35 has to so vehemently say so. (fuckheads?... really) They have more power in this country than they do in any other Western State, and in that region of that country where they are most powerful all they can accomplish is a tepid non-sectarian disclaimer about Darmin in high-schools. Which was subsequently removed. Spare me the hysteria. Its almost Christian.
Science without religion is lame.
Science with religion is...religion.
Tell that to Dr Barnett Slepian. Tell that to the staff of the New Woman All Women clinic. (Heck, tell that to the congregation of "Dr" Kent Hovind.)
You know, I have always agreed with the later part of that quote (and I notice that like most theists you can't seem the $@#$@$ provide who it came from, the way we would...), but the first parts is a) not supported by any evidence at all and b) can only be judged in the modern era, when we know far more than he did, as a statement like, "Man, since its not part of the way I think things should work, its so lame!". It certainly makes no sense at this point to claim that it means a damn thing in the original implication.
But, lets talk about that implication. The implication is that science without religion can't what? Help people, act in the best interest of the world, act morally? Sorry, but that's bull. The people that built the bomb didn't **intend** to build one, they where looking for a new way to produce power, then some **good Christians** in the government, and to a lesser extent among the scientific community, went, "Hmm. Couldn't you also make it go boom?" Same trend for everything else. It wasn't atheists that decided TNT would be real useful blowing "people" up, when the original creator of the chemical wanted it to be used strictly for clearing hills or other things that **didn't** kill people. Half the shit people have come up with that later got used in war was some fool saying, "This weapon is so powerful no one would ever use it!", followed by some theist coming along and proclaiming, "God wants me to use this!" Science **with** religion is lame, in *all* connotations of that word, since you don't go around blowing people up with your new "power generation technique", or the like, unless the asshole in charge is thinking of an entirely different sort of power and actually believes **they** deserve to win for some reason (which last I checked is universally always, "Because god is on my side and *gave* me this means to do it."
Heck, even with things like animal rights you get the same BS. I am willing to bet the labs that abused animals where not run by pure securalists who considered all animals equal, but by those that considered humans Biblically superior to all other life, and thus allowed to do anything they want. You now get sort of the reverse in most cases. The labs for the most part respect the animals, within the limits possible given their research, but its the religiously (and yes, something like PETA qualifies due to its dogmatic assertions of truth, adherence to illogical bullshit and refusal to see any other perspective) motivated nut cases that are charging around showing 50-60 year old photos of labs that no longer exist that are ranting about how bad things are and how all the animals need to go free. Neither view point helps anyone. But neither one of them was/is based on a rational perception of the world, but purely on dogma and superstition about mankind's place in that world, and therefor what **imaginary** dominion we have and/or sins we are/have committed apply to the situation.
Science with religion is basically nothing more than a sycophant self serving mess, which caters not to the truth, but to ignoring all evidence against ones vision, in an insane attempt to force the world to work they way you want it to. The world however is a lot bigger than your demented wishes about how it **should** work, and people tend to die when the two come into direct conflict. But, you know, that's always somehow someone else's fault, right?
Bill C. wrote:
Yes, some atheist (and non-atheist) feminists do that (I've read and met them) but many, probably most, do not -- and argue against those who do. Heatedly.
So the problem is there, but you're definitely over-generalizing. And although I've only been reading her blog for a short time, I seriously doubt that Greta Christina falls into that postmodernist multi-culturalist sinkhole. Putting her there to make a valid point will only undercut the point and shift the focus to the part that isn't right.
Quote:unless you can point to the text to which these "fundamentalist" atheists literally and strictly adhere without question, then please shut the hell up about us being fundamentalist.
Well, I guess there IS a text that we stick to fundamentally.
1. Define the question
2. Gather information and resources (observe)
3. Form hypothesis
4. Perform experiment and collect data
5. Analyze data
6. Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis
7. Publish results
8. Retest (frequently done by other scientists)
Can't we all just get together and agree to be angry?
What Sastra said.
And geez, Bill C. We got one wheel to grind one axe at a time, 'round here. Wait yer turn, dude.
Seriously. Merely because the poster happened to focus on the particular zealots who tend to make her life miserable more directly doesn't mean you can assume she suffers from 'cultural self loathing'.
Me, I'll hold a banner for the enlightenment any day of the week. Ask me what I think of 'respect their culture', I'll answer: no, these things have priority: human rights, the equality of women, the primacy of reason. Your culture learns to respect and nurture those, it's earned respect, and we wouldn't even be having this conversation...
But if I'd have written a post raving about what pisses me off, personally, in this world, I think I'd probably most likely have written it with roughly that balance, too... Mebbe a bit more mention of Moslem stupidities, but there's probably a bit more of that immediately in my life blighting it than there is in hers.
Oh. And your comment is stupid. You didn't say word one about Hindutva. Or the misery of the caste system... Peter Popoff and his ilk are still hawking 'miracle water' on late-night TGV, you didn't say a thing about any of that! What? You're for that sort of thing, huh?
Also, I have several other axes I must command you to grind forthwith: my neighbour keeps running over my roses. And those damned kids won't get off my lawn. Why haven't you commented on these issues? Huh? Huh? What are ya? Soft on trespassing? Answer me, ya wussy crime 'n Hindu extremism 'n televangelist coddling self-absorbed rose murdering scum!
Not only was it not an exhaustive list, if you had paid attention I believe she explicitly stated it was only ~1/100th of the things that made her angry.
Yep. Here it is:
To make this more concrete, I think it highly likely that Greta is personally far more in danger from anti-gay Christian fundies in the US than she is from anti-feminist Muslims in the Sudan. So I think she has every right to be especially pissed at the former.
Anthropologist on women and Islamic customs:
http://www.asiasource.org/news/special_reports/lila.cfm
"...burqas as symbolic "mobile homes" that free women to move about in public"
"It is not clear whether and in what ways women have made gains ... are because of or despite the establishment of a so-called Islamic Republic."
"Among the most difficult things for American feminists to accept is that these futures might involve women in developing within a different religious tradition, or traditions that don't have as their primary ideal something called "freedom.""
That's a good last word on Bill C.'s point.
I predict the next troll will rehash the "How dare you compare the atheist movement to the civil rights movement?" line. Let's ignore it, shall we?
Awesome post by Greta "Great" Christina. It's good to see all of this summed up and commented on in one place. Definitely a page to forward around.
There is no direct backup documentation, Bush Sr. will neither confirm or deny, and Rob Sherman himself is not always considered a reliable source.
hmm, I recently saw a review of this (maybe on this very blog?), which linked to posts of reproduced letters sent between the then current administration and the group originally involved in which the sentiment was reaffirmed.
seemed pretty clear to me, and it shouldn't be too hard to relocate.
I'm sure the American Atheist site has something on it, but here is the first review I ran into:
http://bennyhills.fortunecity.com/hardy/203/nonbeliever/page50.html
Bill C states:
"You problem is that you suffer from a form of latent racism."
Ummm, you know Bill, the topic you chose was Muslim wrongs vs Xion wrongs. Correct? So how does that relate to race? Don't christianity and islam both have many followers from different races? Or are you just an idiot and don't actually know what racism is?
Bill C, that does not answer why it is, before September 11, 2001, with the exception of the blowing up of the buddhist statues, most of the news I got about the Taliban were from feminist organizations. And what about the people I know who are horrified by the influence of Islam on western culture.
"I predict the next troll will rehash the "How dare you compare the atheist movement to the civil rights movement?" line. Let's ignore it, shall we?"
Check the comments on her page (if you want to angry the blood up further anyway), they run the troll gamut pretty well.
....more discussion of the Bush Sr. commentary on atheists:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=George_H.W._Bush_and_the_Ath…
Quoth Bill C: "The Christian fundies conduct themselves within the boundaries of civil law. They are peaceful..."
Yes, I'm sure that's what the widow of the doctor murdered by a Christian pastor thinks. I'm also fairly certain that using the Constitution as a giant piece of antique toilet paper is perfectly within the boundaries of civil law as well.
That said: What is it to any of us if Greta Christina or Marvin the Martian wishes to rant about what makes them angry? Even if I disagree with everything she says, that neither invalidates her anger nor gives me (or anyone) any moral high ground to take regarding what constitutes "real" injustice.
Dahan,
Don't be obstuse. Islam developed and spread among people of different races and has been traditionally associated with the ethnic group known as Arab. I am sure you had no idea that that was what I meant.
And I'd love to see how devoted she is to science and reason if evolutionary psychology tells her anything that conflicts with her feminism. The cognitive dissonance will be palpable.
And yes she may be in more danger from Christians here than Muslims in Sudan but Ayaan Hirsi Ali found out the costs of sticking up for women in Holland. Holland is the West. It is largely the same culture and the same values. It can happen here as easily.
Once more, it is alright because it is a peaceful hate for people like me. Hey, be reasonable. Respect why I believe you should be treated as being less than human. And be grateful we have not imprisoned nor executed you.
The largest muslim country is Indonesia. How many Arabs there. And Bill C, it seems you really dislike feminists. Yes! I am calling you on that.
hmm, doesn't BillC seem just a bit more of an extreme version of donaldbain?
coincidence?
Bill C,
So you then apparently believe that we atheists think that Arabs are an inferior race and therefore can't be held accountable to the same standards that intelligent Caucasian folk can. I'm sorry if I came across as "obtuse" it's just that this is such a bazaar, far-fetched and, may I add, idiotic idea that I didn't quite get it at first. It doesn't help that you seem to have a problem communicating. Thanks though. Now I know that you do indeed know what racism is, it's just that you're dumb as a rock. Well, that's settled then. On to other things.
Bill C. is simply lying. The Xian fundie death cults have produced quite a few terrorists and murders. The owner of this blog, PZ occasionally publishes the death threats he gets from a clown named Michael Korn who has also threatened to eliminate the entire biology department at UC Boulder. He is now on the run with an arrest warrant out on him.
The death toll from the MD death squad contingent of these Xian terrorists is 7 dead, 17 attempted murders, and close to 200 wounded, some seriously. That isn't even factoring in that guy with the Arabic sounding name,...Oh yeah, Tim McVeigh who bombed the federal building in Oklahoma.
Factor in the occasional gay and nonwhite that gets killed because of these guys, the Xian identity racist mob. A dead body here, a dead body there, it all adds up.
The fundie death cult terrorists are a lot more of a menace than the Arab terrorists. They are here whereas the Arabs are over there.
I'm just wondering what feminism has to do with anything in the first place.
Rey Fox, Bill C had this to say in #28; "Typical blinkered feminist cant." There she was giving reasons for people to dismiss atheism. Because, as we all know, all feminist are all the same.
Bill C never touched on why I got my news about the Taliban from feminist groups. Oh! Wait! Could it be because feminists are all socialists who are more concerned about oppressed non-westerners? (#44 Yes atheist feminists do have a soft spot for Islam because they are almost invariably Marxists who have a soft spot for anyone who has been victimized by colonialism and will patronize their stupidity.) The last I checked, RAWA was a socialist group.
Oh, they are an Afghan group.
Ichthyic:
Thanks for the links re the Bush quote. There's obviously plenty there to get angry about, but it's still not certain what, exactly, was said at the time. The smoking gun "related correspondence" still only talks about "alleged" remarks. I've read elsewhere that the story and its details changed several times before its present form.
I'm not calling shennanigans, though -- just saying it's still a firm "maybe" for me. I no longer use it. But if nothing else, the quote seems to have been accepted by some mainstream media, and judging by other things Bush Sr. said, he could have said it.
raven wrote:
And, as Bill C. will quickly point out, there are a lot more Muslims who endorse the murder of infidels than Christians -- as well as the murder of each other for what we consider minor infractions, if that. "Mainstream" Muslims will hold positions and views that only the extreme fringes of Christian fundamentalists hold in the U.S.
As both Harris and Hitchens emphasize, extremist fundamentalism is bad, but extremist Islamic fundamentalism is more prevalent -- and both advocates and commits violence more often. I count what is done overseas and in other countries. And I don't count on it staying overseas and in other countries.
And I'd like to point out to Bill C. that Ayaan Hirsi Ali (blessed be her name) considers herself a feminist.
Here is a good example of the Bill C.s mythical law abiding peaceful Xian death cultists. The people quoted BTW, are the leaders of these cults. Old post, recopied.
While the ignorance, lie, violence, and murder cultists are waiting for their theocratic hell on earth, they have a few hobbies. One is publishing lists of people they would like to kill. Another is killing them. The record is Rushdooney. By one reckoning, he would end up killing 99% of the US population. And this was one of their main theologians and leaders.
How to identify fundie xian cultists. It is easy. They lie constantly. They are very, very good at hating. Dumb. They and their leaders frequently publish lists of groups they want to kill. They occasionally kill them.
Pat Robertson: wikipedia
Hugo Chávez" I don't know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it. It's a whole lot cheaper than starting a war, and I don't think any oil shipments will stop.
We will find you, we will try you, and we will execute you. I mean every word of it.
[Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue, at the Aug 8, 1995 U.S. Taxpayers Alliance Banquet in Washington DC, talking about doctors who perform abortions and volunteer escorts My note. Terry's sympathizers have, in fact, murdered more than a few health care workers.
"Pastor Jerry Gibson spoke at Doug Whites New Day Covenant Church in Boulder.
He said that every true Christian should be ready and willing to take up arms to kill the enemies of Christian society.
bcseweb.org Rushdooney:
Our list may not be perfect but it seems to cover those "crimes" against the family that are inferred by Rushdoony's statement to Moyers. The real frightening side of it is the interpretation of heresy, apostasy and idolatry. Rushdoony's position seems to suggest that he would have anyone killed who disagreed with his religious opinions. That represents all but a tiny minority of people. Add to that death penalties for what is quite legal, blasphemy, not getting on with parents and working on a Sunday means that it the fantasy ideal world of Rushdoony and his pals, there will be an awful lot of mass murderers and amongst a tiny population.
We have done figures for the UK which suggest that around 99% of the population would end up dead and the remainder would have each, on average, killed 500 fellow citizens.
Chalcedon foundation bsceweb.org. Stoning disobedient children to death.Contempt for Parental Authority: Those who consider death as a horrible punishment here must realise that in such a case as
....cut for length
Rev. William Einwechter, "Modern Issues in Biblical Perspective: Stoning Disobedient Children", The Chalcedon Report, January 1999
When The Hate Comes From 'Churches'
ASHLAND, Ore. - A recent spate of crimes points up a growing connection between hateful actions and organizations calling themselves churches.
Two brothers from northern California reportedly linked to such a group were charged this week with the killing of two gay men near Redding. Benjamin Matthew Williams and James Tyler Williams also are suspects in the firebombing of three synagogues in the Sacramento area last month.
According to personal acquaintances as well as law enforcement officials, the Williams brothers were involved in Christian Identity, a religion that holds Jews and nonwhites to be subhuman and is closely tied to the Aryan Nations white-supremacist group based in northern Idaho.
Meanwhile, officials are investigating the links between Benjamin Smith and the World Church of the Creator. Over Independence Day weekend in Illinois and Indiana, Smith shot Asians, Jews, and an African-American (killing two and injuring nine) before killing himself.
Fundie cultists frequently publish lists of groups they plan to or would like to kill. From above quotes, we have MDs, "enemies of christian society" (whoever they are), heresy etc., disobedient children but only by stoning, gays, Jews, nonwhites, the topic of this thread-scientists and others.
If the truth is ugly, way it goes. By their words, ye shall know them, The Book.
To make things worse, they occasionally do murder people.
Sastra, don't say that. Now Bill C will have accuse Ayaan Hirsi Ali of being a Marxist (Despite the fact she works for AEI.)to stay consistent with his pronouncements.
Just want to point out, while in my current situation, fundy christians are a greater threat to my existence, I am very concerned about second and third generation muslims in the US starting to get militant here much like in The Netherlands, Germany and England.
Oh I know he said it. I'm just joining you in calling him out.
World Church Of The Creator was forced by a court to change its name (now Creativity Movement) because a Christian group had prior claim to the name Church of the Creator. Unlike British Israelism/Christian Identity, Creativity is not a Christian sect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Church_of_the_Creator
SPLC: "But in truth, Creativity can be summed up in a single sentence: Whites are the creators of civilization, and all others are its destroyers. Creativity reviles Christianity as a Jewish plot and is essentially atheistic, seeing God as a phantom "super-spook.""
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=571
In my view, any woman who exercises her right to work, vote and go shopping without a male escort is a feminist. Some are just afraid of the word, just like a lot of atheists refuse to call themselves atheist. Most of these women have absolutely no idea what the alternative is based just on American history. They fully enjoy their freedoms -- even if it's the freedom to decide whether to stay single or marry and submit to a man's authority. (I'm not sure how "free" those women corraled in north Arizona are, but they are the only possible exception that springs to mind.) Sorry, a bit off topic, but this is a subject that makes me nuts.
I'm angry that I pay property taxes on my real estate and !!!(&!$(!(*#&!!^! woo-centers (which are basically just businesses) don't pay ANY! THAT REALLY PISSES ME OFF!!!
Religion without science is - religion that has managed to survive.
Science is the foaming cleanser that wipes away the brain-tainting scum that is religion.
-- Howard Beale, Network
Posted over there and got the usual preaching from some guy named Brad, who thinks I can't be happy without the big G-meister.
And BillC ... wow. I'm a feminist, and I despise the Muslim treatment of women. Have long before 9/11. But unlike the bedwetters, I don't in the least think we're in imminent danger of being taken over by Islam. So I'll concentrate on what we DO face in the U.S., thank you very much ... like the Christians who'd love to erase the separation of church and state, persecute gays, and continue to demonize atheists as Anne Coulter does in "Godless."
Assuming that Greta--or any feminist--loves the Muslim culture is an anti-feminist piece of arrogance and gross generalization. Maybe we're just not as SKEERED of it as you are.
I'm figuring you've had a few problems with women in your life. Fortunately, I've had the same wonderful husband for 21 years. And he's proud to call himself a feminist, too ... because he actually LIKES women.
And he's the very best guy I've ever known.
Rey, I was assuming you got what he said earlier. It was more for the benefit of those who are skimming. That is because I do a lot of skimming of a lot of threads.
Hey Sue! Glad you can join us!
Oh dear. Could it be Bill C is being drowned out by a bunch of harpies?
Somehow I don't think any of those people wonder why atheists are angry at them. They already have a pretty good idea why; they just don't give a fuck. So not much point telling them.
Also not much point in telling Christians who are wondering why atheists are angry with them why we're angry with someone else. That would seem to be missing the point somewhat.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali has spoken out against honor killings, physical abuse, burkas, and the general status of women in Islam. That's not feminism, its common sense.
And to whoever said I don't know what racism is: Leftists (all feminists are leftists), have a soft spot for anyone who is poor and not white. They will excuse their behavior in an attempt to salvage the nobility of ny culture that they believe is not white and western. It fits their narrative o victim hood.
--Stanley Spadowski, UHF
Gee Bill, how long have you hated women? I pity any woman who gets or got stuck with you. The misogynist from hell.
Hey Bill, a secret for you. Women are human beings. No fooling. Roughly half of all new MDs and lawyers in the country are female. The next president might be named Hilary.
Your only hope is to flee to a hardcore fundamentalist Moslem country where women are considered slightly more valuable than livestock. On a good day. You will fit right in.
Or you could try getting your mental illness treated here. Schizophrenia or I miss my mark, the incredible generalized hostility gives it away. The pills work well for most of you.
Hi, all. Greta Christina here. I just wanted to directly answer the question of "Why didn't I address Muslim atrocities in my 'Atheists and Anger' post?"
Short answer: (a) I was trying to focus on things that I had some personal experience with. I wasn't writing quickly -- the piece actually took me a week to write -- but I was writing emotionally, and the Christian theocracy is what I have a lot more personal experience with... and thus a lot more personal anger about.
(b) I was trying to keep it... well, not short, obviously, but less than novel-length.
But if I were writing the piece all over again now, I probably would include more references to non-Christian religious atrocities. Because I am angry about those things. I am angry about burkas, and clitoridectomies, and women being executed for adultery, and karma/ reincarnation being used as a justification for the caste system, and the destruction of the ancient Buddha statues in Afghanistan by the Taliban. They just didn't happen to be in the 1% of things that anger me about religion that made it into my post.
That is all. Except that Ingrid insists that I point out that my name actually anagrams to "Great Christian."
Oh, dear sweet and lovely Bill C. You pitched a little fit when one person called you a fundy christian. (Please note, I did not call you such a thing.) You did not like having a blanket statement covering you. Yet you are mote then willing to cover others with a similar type of blanket.
Just so you know Ayaan Hirsi Ali IS a feminist.
http://www.digitalnpq.org/archive/2006_winter/hirsi_ali.html
Oh! And guess what! I do not buy into the idea that just because a people has been oppressed that does not mean the become morally superior to those that oppressed them. Too many revolutions have shown this idea to be mistaken. I do not buy into Third Worldism. Also, too many cultures, eastern and western, have been based on oppression, period. I have no desire to live in most of them.
Bill C, I would suggest you met some women. But, if in real life, you are half as off putting as your posts show you to be, I doubt most women would want to deal with you.
But I will give you two suggestions. First, have some idea of what other people actually believe. Second, not all people who disagree with you are your enemy.
Some ex-Muslim freethinkers
Necla Kelek
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/12/01/news/profile3.php
Wafa Sultan
http://tinyurl.com/3xdfyh
Ibn Warraq
http://tinyurl.com/2qs7nr
I am not sure I ever said anything about women that was derogatory. I simply said that feminists were leftists. I do not know of any school of libertarian feminism (although I think female equality can only be achieved in an economically liberal society) but I said derogatory things about feminism because it adopts an ideology imbued with Marxism to the end of identifying with the oppressed. This is why they excuse Islamic horrors against women, because Muslims come traditionally from ethnic groups which have been oppressed.
"Gee Bill, how long have you hated women? I pity any woman who gets or got stuck with you. The misogynist from hell.
Hey Bill, a secret for you. Women are human beings. No fooling. Roughly half of all new MDs and lawyers in the country are female. The next president might be named Hilary."
I don't know where you get all that from.
Leftists (all feminists are leftists), have a soft spot for anyone who is poor and not white.
I wish this was my experience!!!!!
Bill C's "concern" for Muslim women and disdain for feminism is a contradiction with a long and interesting history, here's a quotation:
During the 18th and 19th centuries, when European powers colonized much of the Muslim world, the need to free veiled Muslim women from oppression was often cited as a justification for colonialist actions. But, as anthropologist Dawn Chatty has pointed out, the colonists themselves were rarely proponents of women's liberation back home. In one example, Chatty notes that a staunch British colonialist who promoted the "liberation" of Egyptian women was, back home, a member of the Men's League for Opposing Women's Suffrage.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/nation-world/infocus/mideast/isla…
Bill's not too bright.
Maybe he found his way here from Powerline.
Who knew that gender equality and fairness meant marxism?
That's right... anything left of Nixon is marxist.
"I don't know where you get all that from."
Just your constant unprovoked attacks on straw feminists. On a thread that's, uh, not about feminism. Or Marxism, for that matter.
Yes and I am of course bound by the contradictions of a 19th century colonialist.
Bill_C, I think it's pretty obvious that you have a specific ax to grind about Islam. That's all well and good. Islam hasn't generally treated women very well. Most Western religion hasn't treated women well. But to insist that any argument against religion (and in this case, just explaining why someone who is an atheist is upset) include all crimes that all religions are guilty of would certainly not fit in a blog post.
Furthermore, to insist that Islam is so much more dangerous than Christianity, Hinduism and all the other religions of the world because of its current bogeyman status in the US ignores the essential problems and the arguments leveled against religion as a whole.
And, to be honest, anyone who levels criticism against a position stated to be against religion as being "feminist cant" with little to back that charge up seems obviously full of "cant".
You haven't made a very good and thorough argument.
phat
Perhaps if you were to respond to the numerous personal statements and citations showing that the majority of self-identified feminists do no such thing?
Also, you may find the following instructive:
Your repeated frothy-mouthed strawman attacks on "feminists" and your completely-irrelevant-to-the-conversation-but-pattern-matchingly-suggestive reference to evolutionary psychology would be good places to start.
Aww Bill C. Sad and silly Bill C. You are incapable of answering anything. You have your talking points and you are sticking with them. I point out where you are mistaken and you repeat yourself instead of answering my point. Is Ayaan Hirsi Ali a marxist? You claim all feminist thought is leftist and adopts marxist idealogy. Is Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who works for the American Enterprise Institute, a marxist?
Seeing that you cannot or will not answer this, you should be left alone to babble to the wind. You cannot communicate, you dictate.
Bye-bye silly Billy.
What? They record your religion on a medical record in the USA?
I mean, I could* understand "Jehovah's Witness" vs "not" being recorded, but... please.
* If in a sufficiently cynic mood...
Oopsie.
Still surprises me, of course...
Aren't the Episcopalians the same as the Church of England? Isn't the name the only difference?