It may be our next trouble spot. They have a creationist majority on the school board, and they're saying stuff like this:
Despite the Pennsylvania case, some school board members want both intelligent design and evolution taught in Polk schools. They say they have received numerous e-mails and phone calls in support of intelligent design.
"My tendency would be to have both sides shared with students since neither side can be proven," Tim Harris said.
Tim Harris, you're a moron. You need to recognize this fact soon, so that your self-confident ignorance doesn't lead your school district into a catastrophic law suit that will make you a poster boy for the taxation and education problems that will ensue. Look at Alan Bonsell. That could be you.
"Those who are unaware of history are doomed to repeat it" is really true here. I say this as a friend and fan of public schools—thinking that you are serving a pious community by trying to sneak religion into your schools is a formula for disaster.
Sensible residents of Polk County: I have a suggestion. You should get together and buy each board member a copy of Humes' Monkey Girl, and tell them to read it…and that they'll be tested on it. If your school board members are functional illiterates, make them watch the PBS documentary on Judgment Day. The clear message of the trial is how the hubris of certain school board members led the whole district into folly and financial ruin. Another message is that the people they think are their friends, the fellows of the Discovery Institute, will abandon them at the first hint of trouble, and that those who stay you might wish had left, since in the case of the Dover trial it was Behe and Minnich who helped kill the case.
And to people everywhere: if you can, run for your local school board. These small groups of people have tremendous influence on American education, and yet you will find the most remarkably stupid people seated on them, people who campaign on a platform of destroying public education. You will receive no glory and no fame and the power you exercise will not be appreciated by the students it benefits, but we need hundreds of thousands of smart people to take those seats and steer education in a rational direction. If you don't, there are a million Tim Harrises waiting in line to run it into the ground.
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From the point of view of Polk county, this could be a disaster in the making. From the point of view of science, though, another successful court case will be just one more slice of legal precedent on the side of reason, and another fat nail in the coffin of ID. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the organisation to nip this in the bud turns out to be the DI. Unless, of course, they are completely bereft of any kind of strategic insight. Which is certainly a possibility.
Perhaps these individuals on the Polk County school board who are advocating for ID/Creationism must be thinking that they will find an activist judge who will ignore Kitzmiller v. Dover and give them a favorable legal ruling. There are, unfortunately, way too many committed true believers who are simply spoiling for a fight and a test case that they can take all the way to the SCOTUS (where they feel that they have a chance to win).
OT, but the Governor of Alabama or Georgia or somewhere in the buybull belt has been praying for rain.
His fucking god oughta get its aim straight, cos it's been pissing down over here in England for days now!
Bwahahaha, the clown's been praying for rain. Shouldn't he be doing a rain dance as well? (except it ain't so funny for the drought victims).
There should be some form of intellectual standard for any who want to get onto a school board.
Oh, for crying out loud... Every time I think there might be hope for humanity yet, someone goes and does something like this.
But there are bright spots. Like this song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAP0fUVhtkw
Which I only just heard, but am prepared to declare one of the great musical masterpieces of our time. The title will tell you something: "If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out".
#2 Engr
"There are, unfortunately, way too many committed true believers who are simply spoiling for a fight and a test case that they can take all the way to the SCOTUS (where they feel that they have a chance to win)."
Yes, I'm not big into law, but I heard something about a loop hole in the Edwards v. Aguillard case that ID proponents might be looking to take advantage of; if they can take a case that far. However, it seems like that maybe wishful thinking, too. Plus, I think social conservatives have seriously misjudged the thinking of the conservative elements on SCOTUS. At best, they might get a dissent from the likes of Alito and Scalia, but I can't see either of them voting ID into the science class. Rightwingers they might be, but pandering lapdogs... not so much, IMHO. Anyway, such a move by the ID crowd would require careful orchestrating and a good handling of publicity. They haven't proved terribly adept at on that score. Problem with ID is that, as we've seen, its most vociferous proponents are YECs who are simply not adroit enough to hide that fact.
I think if they push for another case, they're going to get turned over even worse than last time. Hopefully, I'm not succumbing to wishful thinking.
Thanks for posting this, PZ. Since the news article states that the school board is getting e-mails from ID supporters, we need to flood these folks with e-mails from science supporters to counter the misinformation.
Also note how Margaret Lofton states quite clearly: "If (evolution) is taught, I would want to balance it with the fact that we may live in a universe created by a supreme being as well." Game over, Lofton. You just sank your case before it's even begun.
Or Matthew Chapman's "40 Days and 40 Nights". I just finished it and came away with a heightened disgust for the "self-confident ignorance" of the religious. Lying for Jesus is the motto of all these blowhards.
That the great^n-grandson of Charles Darwin is reporting on an ID vs Evolution trial gives it an interesting twist.
TedD, that was very funny. We oughta send it to the goofy gubernatorial gonzo.
My mother-in-law lives in Polk County, FL, and judging from what I know of her, this does not surprise me at all. She subscribes to the "Answers in Genesis" magazine, for instance. She doesn't know shit from Shinola about anything, making her the natural constituent of the Polk County School Board.
If Polk County is like Dixie County Fl, they might pull this off.
They have the Ten Commandments displayed on the front steps of the Dixie County courthouse and not one person in the county has challenged it.
If Polk County introduces ID into the public Classrooms, and nobody challenges it, it could stand.
I had read that Dixie County is infested with guns and churches and there is an obvious intimidation factor going on there.
As a former resident of Florida, and one that lived very close to Polk County (Hillsborough County, to be precise), a few observations.
I got my undergraduate degree in Florida not that long ago. Detailed teaching about evolution at the university level was put off until at least the junior year. Before that, the curriculum centered around anatomy and high-level ecology. Even in a biodiversity course, evolution was not explicitly cited as an organizing principle. The course was mainly about memorizing distinguishing traits of various phyla and classes without tying it all together.
Polk County is largely rural and heavily dominated by fundamentalist religion. Remember, not all of Florida is Miami. In fact, much of it is still very much "old south." I won't go into detail about that. On the other hand, it's worth noting that the kind of thinking that feeds fundamentalist zeal can also be connected to the exceptionally high infant mortality rates in the state and the general lack of access to education and health care that benights much of America's nethermost realm.
Much of Florida, Polk County included, exists in a bubble that appears to have stopped time within somewhere in the early 1930's. The arrogance you see in the statements of the Polk County school board Creationists extends to every aspect of life. There's an intensity to the insular thinking down there that isn't seen in most places with solid connections to the rest of the world. Look at a map sometime and see where the nearest airport is to places like Winterhaven and Lakeland.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see this wind up in court. Like few other places I've ever been, rural Floridian fundies are more convinced that God is on their side and lives among them. The possibility of losing their case will never enter their minds, and even if they lose, they're very likely to go ahead and do whatever they want in the first place. I know personally at least one person who was ordered never to mention the word "evolution" as a substitute teacher in a relatively major Florida city that's home to two large universities.
My money is on Polk County as the next Dover, and I would bet on the reactions in communities there getting much, much uglier than anything that took place around the Kitzmiller case.
@dale:
What you've heard is true. Very few people want to challenge religious authority in Dixie County, or in most of Florida, for precisely those reasons. The few that want to are often subject to blatant intimidation tactics. I've always thought that members of Florida Citizens for Science are particularly brave folks for precisely these reasons, especially people like Wes Ellsbury who truly stick their necks out.
"If Polk County is like Dixie County Fl, they might pull this off."
Well, it is a very rural county like Dixie County.
I haven't been to the Florida Citizens for Science site in a while. I guess it's time as a good citizen to check in. I encourage other Floridians to do the same.
There should be some form of intellectual standard for any who want to get onto a school board.
Jon,
That is a very fair observation, and in most circumstances there are people who run for office on local school boards who are working professionals in fields that require college degrees and, in some cases, professional licensure. School boards have to manage finances and budgets; thus it would make perfect sense that some of its elected members are accountants or financial planners. School boards also have to manage its infrastructure needs, and having elected members who are urban planners or engineers make sense.
The problem is that most college degrees require very little science education, and I am often amazed at just how fundamentalist-driven religious beliefs can turn otherwise intelligent people into complete idiots with regards to science education in general and the theory of evolution in particular. Some of these folks can be reasoned with and constructively redirected if approached by knowledgeable professionals and scientists, but others (unfortunately) see public education as a tool for evangelizing, and can never be reasoned with. Those types can only be marginalized by intense public scrutiny.
One part of the solution as I see it is for the States to have intellectually and academically sound educational standards, and for these same States to have State education commissioners that are fully empowered to not just demand, but enforce, local school boards from interfering with the implementation of those standards. All that the local school boards should be managing are its local education budgets and maintaining its infrastructure assets. However, I do agree with PZ in that this requires constant vigilance on the parts of parents to watch who we elect to the school boards, attend school board meetings, examine exactly what our children are being taught, and meet and get to know our children's teachers.
And, in the case of Tammy Kitzmiller, have the courage to not allow religious fundamentalists to push us around and trample on our First Amendment protections.
Criminy. Isn't the overwhelming body of case law enough? Should we even have to worry about these weasels?
Sounds like another court case. The Dover case cost the school district $2 million. Half was waived by the plaintiffs, probably because the school district would have ended up bankrupt.
These fundie clowns don't care about the law or the students or the schools. They just like to annoy people. The idea must be, "we are dishonest, lying criminals out to bankrupt the school system. Therefore god exists."
Great logic, makes perfect sense. And they wonder why there is a backlash against the cults.
This genius will probably show up and clench the case for ID.
((snort)) I can tell PZ has never been to Polk county.
They won't have ANY trouble teaching ID in Polk, or most of central Florida. I wouldn't be surprised to see the same in Hillsborough County, where they have an ultraconservative school board and county legislature (both of whom tried to ban libraries from having books with homosexual characters ... not only SCHOOL libraries, but PUBLIC libraries as well)
I'm afraid after teaching for a year in a Florida School, I have very little doubt that religion and faith are, in many places, more highly valued than education, science and truth.
Even Georgia... if it hadn't been Cobb County, if it had been DeKalb county, for instance, there would have been no uproar over the textbook stickers. Unfortunately there are a lot of hotbeds of fundamentalist lunacy, especially in the south.
"(both of whom tried to ban libraries from having books with homosexual characters ... not only SCHOOL libraries, but PUBLIC libraries as well)"
Dorid, my little sister was the librarian who set off the recent Hillsborough County fiasco. She made a display of young adult literature for gay pride week not knowing that her innocuous display would rile the close-minded and bring in the crazy politicos. I was really proud of her as she weathered the media storm.
Dorid:
I hadn't thought about ol' Rhonda Storms in awhile! The sister of a good friend of mine was at the eye of that particular Storms storm, having been the one who put up a display of books with homosexual elements in the public library in the first place. After a few years split between Tampa and Tallahassee, I can only think of one place I was happier to leave than Florida. It really is a scary place for a non-native who needed to be involved with the local community to any extent. That's not to say that there aren't intelligent, educated, good people there... but they're outnumbered by fundamentalist troglodytes in much of the state, in my experience.
Hello Diego! Speak of the devil! ;)
Teach the controversy idea: America's founders were largely opposed to the Christian establishment, and their ideas led to a non-Christian government. Notice that the Senate is named after the Pagan Roman body, and that in fact all parts of government are named from Roman or Greek precedents, not Biblical precedents.
Students generally take a lot more social studies than biology -- I'm sure Tim Harris, with his penchant for teaching "both sides," will agree.
Next up: Both sides of the sex question, "abstinence only" or "training every Friday night." Harris will approve.
[Check to see whether satire mode is on]
Having spent a little time on the forum of the newspaper that ran the original story I'd like to suggest that a few of you exercise your fingers and contribute as you can to the debate there. Some of the comments made by earlier posters on this thread with experience of the area do not paint an overly pessimistic picture IMHO.
How do you teach "intelligent design" anyway? What content is there to teach? "Such-and-such is too complex to have evolved, therefore goddidit. Thus endeth the lesson."
It is ironic to me that those who preach the ten commandments so loudly are such incessant liars that it is hard to tell whether they are serious or just posturing.
Exactly. ID can be "taught" in less than ten minutes. It's kind of like a fast-food drive-thru --and about as healthy. You won't fund anything of substance or intellectual value coming from it.
Oops.. That should be find not fund.
The people who bring these ideas up, and the board members who go along with it, should have to sign a binding contract that they will indeminify the district against the inevitable legal costs. The contract should include a clause preventing the signers from using bankrupcy to get out of paying.
Oh hi, back at ya', Mike! How funny it is that we posted at just about the same time.
ID creationism will become the light grenade of the 21st century. They just keep picking it up, and won't learn from other's mistakes.
ID creationism will become the light grenade of the 21st century. They just keep picking it up, and won't learn from other's mistakes.
As a Brit working in Florida, one thing you notice in small town America is how much priority religion has. The main thing I notice is how much of it involves just 'talking the talk' ie it's enough to just say 'I'm a Christian' and accepting that what the bible says must be accurate and that's it - they then assume a place in some kind of glorious afterlife is reserved for them, but they can still behave however they want.
As one of my friends over here pointed out, it's amazing that in the 21st century there are still people who believe the earth is 6000 years old and that a story involving talking snakes, women being created from a man's rib and people living to 900 years old is considered plausible, yet evolution is not.
Rob: They probably find the caricature of evolution implausible, since usually they haven't been shown the actual evidence since even evolutionists find creationist mangling of history and evidence - psuedoscience - implausible...
Talking snakes and forbidden fruit and cherubic angels and and sticks turned to snakes, signs in the heavens etc are plausible compared to such straw-men,..
@AlanW (#24),
I've done so; I wrote a comment advancing the teaching of the creation myth from the Rg Veda when the story first came about that one commissioner (I forget her name at the moment).
I doubt it changed anyone's mind, though.
I've been interested in possibly getting on the school board for quite a while, as I'm sure other lurkers have. Does anyone know how I would go about doing that? Where do you find the job description? How do you run? When are elections?
He should just take up cricket. That works pretty well.
Bob
OK, you can teach intelligent design in biology, but I want numerology taught in math class and astrology taught in physics class. I mean, if we're going to be forcing archaic myths on children and doing everything in our power to prevent them from getting an education, I want it taken to the max. Because that's how America acts best: unilaterally.
ID has no phenomenon.
No study was done, no discovery was made, that indicates the presence of an "Intelligent Designer".
No coded messages in our DNA, No billion-year-old alien spaceships, and certainly no religion that has made better-than-chance truth claims.
An idea you personally like does not a scientific theory make.
Scarier: is this how they think modern science has gotten to this point? Do they believe we just happen to like evolution, or enough people thought the periodic table was "neat", or that we preferred the germ theory to the "evil spirits" theory?
Science is not about the ideas we think are right, it's about the ideas that are left after rigorous and repeated testing, testing that ID failed when it was "creationism", failed again when it was "creation science", and is failing today, all for lack of phenomenon.
I spent a few days in Bartow, the county seat of Polk County, in 1995, and was amused to see, lined up with the rest of the newspaper vending boxes in front of the post office, the newspapers of the national NAAWP (David Duke's bunch) and the local KKK. The same boxes were present in front of the courthouse, but someone had helpfully turned them around to face the wall.
Can any current Polk County residents tell us if these are still there?
Does the ACLU have any leverage for filing a lawsuit if ID is introduced in the classroom, and no parent complains? Because that could happen down there. I know that area, although I lived further south in the more cosmopolitan International Zone.
Maybe some good news here... a quick Google on state science education standards shows that the Florida Board of Education has a revision coming up, and if it stays in current form it will mandate teaching evolution. There is a 60 day comment period, so any Floridians here might want to participate:
http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/news/2007/FL/972_evolution_in_the_flor…
Does anyone know what legal force those standards have? If not ACLU, would the state of Florida be able to prevent Polk county from adopting ID in the classroom, if these new standards go into effect in January?
DSKS wrote: ... they might get a dissent from the likes of Alito and Scalia, but I can't see either of them voting ID into the science class.
That's a rather sanguine view. Scalia wrote the dissent in Edwards and that could easily be the basis for the next Court decision on evolution. It could come down to a very shaky swing vote by Kennedy. For a detailed analysis of the situation see "Evolution and the Holy Ghost of Scopes: Can Science Lose the Next Round?" by Stephen J. Newman, Professor, New York Law School.
http://org.law.rutgers.edu/publications/law-religion/articles/Newman.pdf
#39 Failes said,
"No study was done, no discovery was made, that indicates the presence of an "Intelligent Designer".."
Absolutely true. Although, for me, the jury is still out on whether a Comedian Designer is responsible for all this. For instance, Hooded Seals try to psyche each other out by inflating their nasal lining.
I think that must contravene some law of irreducible absurdity.
If we consider that Douglas Adams really was the Messiah, I think there might be some legs in this design gig after all.
"If we consider that Douglas Adams really was the Messiah, I think there might be some legs in this design gig after all. "
It would certainly explain the widespread earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, and falling of temples on the day he died.
Here's my letter
Mr Harris.
While I do not live in Polk County ,I am a Volusia County resident, I believe that any attempt to make ID a part of science curriculum is a big mistake. As stated in Kitzmiller v Dover, ID is not science and could never be considered science. The star witness for the Discovery Institute and DI , Mike Behe when pressured, stated that the definition that the DI and ID use for science is so vague that astrology fit into the science category. The DI backed out of testifying in Kitzmiller v Dover that they left smoke trails in their wake. The suit also wound up costing Dover School board $2 million. I implore you to reconsider ID as a science class. religion? Yes. Philosophy? Yes. But not in any way shape or form science.
Respectfully,
#43 Tomh
Thanks, that link looks like an interesting analysis. It's actually provoked me to give more than a cursory look over Scalia's dissent in that case (opinions make hard reading). It was the nature of that dissent that I think suggests that we shouldn't rely too heavily on the Establishment Clause in attacking ID. The Dover case, relied heavily on the evidence of religious motive, which, through inconsistent witness testimony and documented evidence, was clearly demonstrated. The next go round, if the ID argument evolves, might not be so straight forward. The DI's Wedge Strategy makes it clear that avoiding opposition on the basis of the 1st Amendment is one of their key aims (regardless of how incompetent they have been in implementing it). In Scalia's dissent in Edwards, as I interpreted it, he focuses mainly on the problem of whether it was legitimate to rule on motive alone. I'm interested to read Stephen Newman's take on that. Either way, the weakness in the Establishment Clause strategy is the argument that it refers to neutrality on religious issues; that area is where conservative judges become threatening.
But that isn't the only case to be made against ID, of course. I think an emphasise on the importance of maintaining the current definition of science, and making it clear that it would require a completely new definition to justify the integration of ID into the curriculum, is crucial. Obviously, this issue cropped up in the Kitzmiller trial, and Behe kindly provided the prosecution with a gift regarding his views of astrology.
If we press on this particular issue, the question is whether the likes of a curmudgeonly conservative like Scalia has the stomach to completely overturn the scientific paradigm. Perhaps. They might vacillate on whether ID is a 1st Amendment issue, but surely they can't decide that alchemy should be taught next to chemistry? Then I'm a glass half-full kinda guy, and I've been dead wrong in my optimism before ("GW? Elected twice? Naaaa!").
"It would certainly explain the widespread earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, and falling of temples on the day he died.
Hey, I'm still waiting for the honey bees to deliver their final message to mankind,
"So long, and thanks for all the pollen!"
The email addresses for the anti-science majority of the Polk County school board are available from the Florida Citizens for Science web site (http://www.flascience.org/wp/):
Tim Harris: Tim.Harris@polk-fl.net
Margaret Lofton: Margaret.Lofton@polk-fl.net
Hazel Sellers: Hazel.Sellers@polk-fl.net
Kay Fields: Kay.Fields@polk-fl.net
I sent them each a copy of the Kitzmiller ruling, since it's clear they haven't read it.
The situation in Texas is if anything worse; Don McLeroy a member of the Texas State Board of Education, is trying to get ID instead of evolution taught in Texas schools.
Please help.
The situation in Texas is if anything worse; Don McLeroy a member of the Texas State Board of Education, is trying to get ID instead of evolution taught in Texas schools.
Please help.
Does Texas Citizens for Science - or its equivalent - have a 501(c)3 designation? Can it accept donations online?
Do you have email addresses for the Texans who need polite, positive correction?
"I've been interested in possibly getting on the school board for quite a while, as I'm sure other lurkers have. Does anyone know how I would go about doing that? Where do you find the job description? How do you run? When are elections?"
Check the county government listings in the phone book or the county government web site, under "Election Board" or "Board of Election Supervisors" or some similar title.
The local headquarters of your favorite political party could probably also offer lots of advice.
The comments here about fundamentalism in parts of Florida are accurate. In fact, the sheriff of Jacksonville is an active member of an organization whose express intent is evangalism in the workplace (as covered in the local Progressive paper, the Folio Weekly recently).
You really don't want to take on the Christian establishment in parts of this state.
As one of my friends over here pointed out, it's amazing that in the 21st century there are still people who believe the earth is 6000 years old and that a story involving talking snakes, women being created from a man's rib and people living to 900 years old is considered plausible, yet evolution is not
Rob, that ain't nothin'! Let me tell you about all the adventures and scrapes Jesus got into down South America way, and all about his evil brother Lucifer, yes you heard right Lucifer is Jesus' brother! Scary, huh! Anyway, all this got written down on golden plates in an incomprehensible, never before seen language, and a special angel was detailed to bring it to earth, and his name was Macaroni, and his brother is the Flying Spaghetti Monster! It was Macaroni, wasn't it? Or was it Marconi?
Correction to #52 -- IIRC, that's the St. Johns County Sheriff, not the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office sheriff. My mistake.
I guess I'm lucky that I live in an urban area with a large school district. We don't get religious nuts on our school board. Instead, we just get good ol' fashioned corrupt politicians who steal from our children, and who are basically unassailable as elements of machine politics. They spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to get jobs that pay a pittance - and attempt with a straight face to tell us that they're there for the good of the schools.
God Bless America!
DSKS: Hey, I'm still waiting for the honey bees to deliver their final message to mankind,
"So long, and thanks for all the pollen!"
What I found funniest is the recent hypothesis that CCD is due to Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus, which was imported from Australia. What was funny was that I hypothesized that Bush was the incarnation of evil in the world, responsible for all suffering, but not to the extent that he would kill the bees. But IAPV has become prevalent because the current administration, in their Libertarian wisdom, lifted regulations banning the importation of non-North American bees into the US.
Yup, you got it. GWB killed the bees!
Idea: Is there some enterprising long-form writer out there who might consider doing an article on the Polk County school board? Interview all the players. Extensive interviews. Be sure to use a tape recorder. Get them to explain why they feel ID needs to be taught. And be sure to get it all on tape before the DI gets to them and tells them not to mention creationism or god.
If all the emails with links to Kitzmiller v Dover don't convince them to stop this nonsense, maybe the school district's lawyers will pull the plug when they hear what would be presented in court as evidence of the board members' religious intent.
Nicholas @ #36: To find out how to run for local school board, check with the County Clerk's office. I work in municipal govt in Canada, but the procedures should be much the same. The County Clerk is required to have available all of the information you will need: when the election is; when nominations close; how to seek nomination; advice on campaigning (wht is prohibitted by law); what papers to sign and when; what you may not do on voting day; and much much more.
Good luck!
By an amusing coincidence, I'm reading Monkey Girl now. I've just finished part 1, which could be summarized as:
Bonsell, Buckingham: we want creationism in biology class.
Teachers, Members of the public: Dude, don't do that. Aside from being horribly wrong on any number of levels, it'll also get the school district sued.
Bonsell, Buckingham: Oh, pshaw!
Religious people usually don't apply critical thinking to their favorite myths. Nor do they believe the truth or applicability of most of their Holy Script. That's obvious. Hence, reason and facts are unacceptable to them, and rarely influence them in a positive way. In any case, the European Parliament puts Creationism/Intelligent Design in its rightful place.
See the text here: http://tinyurl.com/2ee79j