The reason for the season

NB The picture text is "[On] That Day" ...

Damn.

Profound. Deep. Sharp.

Our household loves this poster!

Not counting the tooth fairy, the easter bunny, etc. Perhaps these lies are a way of preparing us, as adults, for our politicians?

~ Another Minnesota athiest and skeptic.

Great poster! I have always wondered why almost all adults when completely insane and decided to lie to kids about Santa Claus. At least with religion, some of them believe it is true but adults know that Santa does not exist. Not only have adults decided to lie to their own children, they lie to other people's children as well. They also get angry if you decide to tell children the truth, because you're spoiling it for them. It must have been in the recent past that the Santa delusion was decided, because isn't Santa (in the red suit) a late 19th century invention?

Yep, that's what happened to me.

I think Lacie Cuskin of edthefuture.org will take issue with this picture.

I think that poster would have been better for the commons in Connecticut. ;o)

What's Dan Dennett doing wearing those clothes?

The US gets only part of the Santa story. In other countries, Santa has a companion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companions_of_Saint_Nicholas

Santa's sidekick often has a sack, and it's for carrying away bad children.

Since the parents decide if their kids are naughty or nice, Santa and his sidekick obviously perform a service for parents, rewarding good kids with gifts, and bagging bad kids to take them away. The unspoken point is that when a kid gets taken away in a sack, he will never again be seen alive.

Eventually, kids grow up to realize jolly Saint Nick and his terrorist partner aren't real. Yet they will turn around and put their own kids through the same years of terror.

The Germans have a word for it: kinderunfreundlichkeit ('unfriendliness toward children'), which is basically the joy of, and the practice of, being cruel to children.

In Haiti, the pair are called Tonton Noel and Tonton Macoute -- Uncle Christmas and Uncle Knapsack. The latter is so deeply feared by little children that when Francois Duvalier ('Papa Doc') made himself President For Life he created an irregular militia to protect his power, naming them Tonton Macoutes, giving them automatic amnesty for any crime they might commit, and letting them terrorize the people, hacking and hanging them.

Papa Doc was followed by his son, Jean-Claude ('Baby Doc'), the two ruling Haiti for 35 years. The Tonton Macoutes were with them throughout. That's how powerful the fear is of that knapsack.

Why would parents not just lie to their kids but lie cruelly? Because they are evil. Nothing justifies cruelty toward children.

Oh, by gosh, by golly
It's time for more religious folly
Myths and stories, faded glories,
All the things that they do

Oh by gosh, by Santa
It's time to stock up on Mylanta
Stomach churning, finally learning
They've been lying to you

Then comes realization
Shining bright and strong
The whole christian nation
Lying to you all along

Oh, by gosh by golly
It's time for more religious folly
Babe in manger, no more danger,
You're seein' what they do
As they whisper, "Merry Christmas" to you

I am proud to say I stopped believing in God before I stopped believing in Santa. The God story was far harder to believe, also Santa had to be real otherwise how did the presents get there? (I never considered my parents were lying to me.)

In the Netherlands, Nick's compaion is "Black Peter" who comes into town with St Nick on Dec 5th ....

C'mon 6EQUJ5, you're just not in the spirit of the season ... oh, wait, you are.

A sack? Naaah. Over here there's just a devil figure who carries a rod for beating naughty children, who additionally get a piece of coal instead of sweets from St Nicholas on December 6th.

off topic just a bit, but since this is the current post...

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Graphic/2007/12/09/1197177034_…

The Boston Globe's latest editorial cartoon--on the GOP candidates and atheists...

What G. Tingey said. In Austria (at least) he's called Krampus, but is also associated with December 5th (the day Mozart died in 1791, incidentally).

Santa Claus in the US is the result of a couple of similar immigrant holidays getting mashed together afaik. The clothing of Santa is loosely based on the Dutch depiction of Sinterklaas (or St. Nik(o)laas). The rest of Santa's depicition in the US was done by coca-cola.

Over here in .nl we celebrate Sinterklaas around december 5th, every year he arrives in a different small town by steamboat from Spain. After his arrival (which is broadcasted on national TV), kids put their shoes at the fireplace (or a central heating radiator nowadays) with food for the horse of Sinterklaas in the hope that one of the helpers of Sinterklaas will exchange the gift with a gift from Sinterklaas in return. The helpers of Sinterklaas are always black people who are supposed to create a sort of friendly chaos wherever they go. When I say black people here, the custom was of course white people with make-up although since our population has been changing you will find "real" black people among them from time to time as well.

Of course the thing with a white Sinterklaas having exclusively black helpers has lead to some silly accusations of racism but, after the fallout that followed an arrival of Sinterklaas accompanied with helpers in all colours of the rainbow I've not heard that much about it anymore.

In one way you guys in the US took the cheaper option of mashing everything together into one christmas holiday, over here we have Sinterklaas in the beginning of the month and christmas at the end of the month. There's a bit of competition between the holidays, but i doubt one of them will ever get forgotten as long as people can be gotten to buy presents twice in one month instead of just once.

In the end it's all bs of course, our ancestors celebrated the winter solstice for hundreds of generations before several religions apropiated the holiday. The first known was probably Horus who miraculously was born on Dec. 25th like all the other "saviors" that followed him.

I love it. I was having a discussion with a friend about the pros and cons of teaching children to believe in Santa. She was for it, said it would "teach them to believe in things." At first I was against, saying it teaches them that the things their elders tell them to believe turn out to be lies. Then I realized what I just said. Now I'm all for it.

I always figured that god was like Santa Claus. And then it turned out they were serious about the god thing.

Well of course Saint Nicolas's original claim to fame was resurrecting the dismembered corpses of students that had been butchered and put into barrels for sale as meat. That definitely chumps that Jesus guy rising from the dead after 7 days.

That's awesome.

Disillusionment about santa claus is a gateway experience to disbelief. In my case, it was extrapolating from "no santa claus" and "no tooth fairy" to "no god, either"

I don't understand, why are you questioning Santa Claus being real. Haven't any of you seen "Miracle on 34th St", the US Post Office delivers mail to Santa. How could they do that if Santa wasn't real. I bet all you unbelievers don't get Christmas presents. The Shame!

as an addendum:
the US Post Office doesn't deliver mail to Jesus

"the US Post Office doesn't deliver mail to Jesus"

That's 'cause he moved and left no forwarding address.

Count me in for one who ditched the god myth before the Santa one. Though it was probably the instant gratification with Santa's promised rewards over the nebulous eternity offered by the former.

"the US Post Office doesn't deliver mail to Jesus"

That's 'cause he moved and left no forwarding address.

The Post Office doesn't deliver mail addressed to Jesus.

I'm sure he still gets the weekly shopper.

I'm familiar with that Santa picture.

I used it to photoshop a FNC War on Christmas card, for a post in Dec. '05, with Mr. Five-in-the-noggin as Santa in John Gibson's "Miracle on 34th Street"

"the US Post Office doesn't deliver mail to Jesus"

Sure they do. He tries to play the whole "Lord and Savior" thing off by saying stuff like "Quit sending me so much mail, asshole, I'm an accountant." Oh, Jesus. :)

God and Santa Claus are comin' to town
One gives you toys and the other strikes you down
I'll leave cookies for Santa but not for God
'Cause he seems to think that I'm a human lightning rod.

(Can't remember the verses-- starts with a boy being told that there's a white-bearded powerful man Up There who knows everything you do and rewards good children, so of course he thinks this is Santa, to which the response is, "You're gonna burn in Hell for a million billion years!")

There are a lot of Christians who don't teach their kids about Santa, for this very reason. I told my kids that Santa was a fun story about a magical man. (On the other hand, I pretended that the car wouldn't run if their seat belts weren't buckled, going so far as to pull over and turn off the car if they climbed out of the car seat.)

The Post Office doesn't deliver letters to Jesus?

Hah! I'll bet if you pointed this out to GOP presidential candidates, one and all would fiercely vow to make sure that future Letters to Jesus get forwarded by the local post office to the nearest Christian church.

Huckabee/Giuliani/Romney/McCain (in chorus): When little Becky writes a letter to Jesus asking why her brother isn't coming home from the war, that little girl deserves an ANSWER!

What's this rubbish about lying to children?

- St Nicholas does exist. He is in heaven I presume. Someone else brings the presents for him since he died. Saying he lives at the North Pole is a lie though.

- Jesus does exist. He is in heaven.

It's interesting, because there are Christian parents who are against Santa Claus because they think that when children find out it will undermine their ability to believe in God. And there are atheists who are against Santa because they think it prepares and predisposes children to believe in God.

I suspect it works either way, depending on the child and what else goes on in their lives. Parents who forbid television sometimes end up with kids who have no interest in watching TV-- and sometimes end up with kids who become obsessed. It's always a bit of a crap shoot.

I do think that my attempt to "keep on believing" in Santa when I was at the age when I really knew better helps me understand a little bit how and why people can maintain faith in things which are patently untrue. There is a kind of "will to believe" which can be very powerful in shaping how you frame, interpret, and ignore things.

Everyone knows that Santa Claus is a demon that eviscerates children, Anya told us so. :)

Stolen shamelessly from Terry Pratchett, just coz I'm in the jolly Hogswatch mood.

"Wherever people are obtuse and absurd...and wherever they have, by even the most generous standards, the attention span of a small chicken in a hurricane and the investigative ability of a one-legged cockroach...and wherever people are inanely credulous, pathetically attached to the certainties of the nursery and, in general, have as much grasp of the realities of the physical universe as an oyster has of mountaineering...yes, Twyla, there is a Hogfather."

For Hogfather, substitute Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, Jesus, God, Heaven, etc...and it still works wonderfully.

that Jesus guy rising from the dead after 7 days.

On the third day -- so that the OT prophecy of "after three days" would be fulfilled.

I see that Sinterklaas has been mentioned, and the helpers in blackface, but not the phrase six to eight black men. So now it has.

We've always done the whole Santa Claus thing. It seemed like a fun fantasy that everyone did. Of course, the first time my son asked me point blank I told him the truth. Now, as a teenager he still throws it in my face that I once lied to him.

I'm glad he's my last child.

I don't remember when I figured out the Santa thing, but I kept up a pretend belief for quite some time. My parents were actually getting a bit worried about it until I had to confess that I was using the Santa thing to get a double load of presents. Of course, I always made sure to ask 'Santa' for the most expensive ones...

Not surprisingly, I became an atheist at a young age.

"kinderunfreundlichkeit"

I'm fascinated by the German language. While not the most beautiful of languages they have some of the best words. Schadenfreude. Kinderunfreundlichkeit. Even Gesundheit (which I find more preferable than "bless you").

Ausgezeichnet!

Oh hells yeah! I'm using this as my xmas ecard this year!!! Exxxxcellent!

I hope I'm not letting out too much about my childhood traumas, but I've been opposed to persuading children to believe in Santa all my adult life. Because I remember, vividly, how I felt when I found out: My mom had LIED to me, and she thought it was funny that I believed her. She thought I was cute to be so trusting and naive.

We live in a world of a million liars, all preying destructively on something of the best within us -- our ability to trust.

There should be one place in the world where trust never dies, where children can know they'll never be lied to, about anything, for any reason. That place should be home.

In my opinion, lying to your children is always very bad. Only in some extreme circumstance could it ever be justified, and then only after long and careful thought.

Down here we sometimes have Pancho Claus who drives a "troque" (Spanglish for "pickup truck" and wears mirrored sunglasses. There is also some menton of a Cajun Santa who has some French name I can't remember who travels in a skiff pulled by aligators.

I think Santa is an exellent vaccination against religion. Santa teaches critical thinking and helps children understand that sometimes the whole world can conspire to get one to believe that which upon further analysis is nonsense.

I can't remember the age where I stopped believing, suffice to say it was fairly early on in my childhood! It was the usual playground ritual of the older kids telling the younger kids that Santa doesn't exist (although, being British, he is Father Christmas). As I had never been brought up in religion I made no connections with God and I carried on the pretence for the sake of my younger brother who found out the truth in a similar fashion. I think my parents were relieved to find out that we no longer believed (poor innocent souls, carrying on for years longer than necessary!) as they actually went through the trouble of using different paper, handwriting, etc etc!

I still get presents from Father Christmas though, they are the ones that weren't on the list to the parents! I think they secretly enjoy it...

Marcus Ranum said:
Disillusionment about santa claus is a gateway experience to disbelief. In my case, it was extrapolating from "no santa claus" and "no tooth fairy" to "no god, either"

Same here, I was in kingergarten when it occured to me that all this Santa business didn't pass the sniff test, I confronted my mother and she told it was all pretend but not to ruin other people's fun.

The easter bunny, tooth fairy, et al didn't stand up to critical review either, and it wasn't long before I was thinking about all of that as I sat bored in church. I didn't deconvert for another 5 or so years, but the seed was planted.

Considering the apparent frequency with which this process happens, I might have to reconsider my stance on teaching kids to believe in these flimsy characters...

Here's something you all might find amusing. Consider it your Christmas gift from me.

http://hagia-sapentia.blogspot.com/2006/12/whether-santa-claus-exists.h…

(There are various versions of this floating around the net. This seems the best one.)

And this is rather disgusting: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/95286/easy_ways_to_keep_your_c…

(I say that as a Christian parent who never told his kids that Santa Claus was anything other than a nice game to play in honor of St. Nicholas.)

As far as I'm concerned, you run the biggest risk of having your kids hate you for the Santa thing if you're too *good* at it. I never found out all at once - just every year my mom and dad would get sloppier: failing to hide the *special* Santa wrapping paper, failing to disguise their handwriting well enough on tags, forgetting which of my presents had come from them and which had come from Santa... They've still never admitted that it was them outright - but we all transitioned nicely into the wink-wink-nudge-nudge we-all-know-its-well-intentioned-bullshit a long time ago. It's cozy. Now, if only I could get them to look at god that way...

I didn't grow up with Santa Claus, but I always put him on a par with the Jesus thing anyway, and with most things Biblical -- it was all a ripping good story. I see no reason why parents need to lie to their kids in the first place, they should just frame Santa and Jesus and all the rest as stories, the same as the stories they read to the kids at bedtime.

I remember, vividly, how I felt when I found out: My mom had LIED to me

The lying aspect of it is a big issue for me too.

I was in kingergarten when it occured to me that all this Santa business didn't pass the sniff test

I'm not sure what age you mean by that but I suspected straight away and, rather than (potentially pointlessly) confront the people whom I already suspected of being liars, I conducted my own investigation of the matter.

I was about 3 at the time but had never been very talented at sleeping. So I deliberately stayed awake and quiet: waiting. Having confirmed that the rather too noisy people who made the delivery were my parents and also having double-checked (shortly afterwards and even more stealthily) that the deposited stuff was indeed what they were claiming was Santa material, I then went to sleep. I didn't let on at the time, but I then knew for certain that I couldn't ever trust my parents fully because they were proven liars.

My mother told me, many years later when I explained that I had known all along, that they had assumed they would hear the noise of any of us opening the stuff if we had been awake. It never occurred to them that I had approximately no interest in the actual contents. I only cared about whether or not they were lying. Although she was upset at being thought a liar, she really did only have herself to blame. In everything else she was still much better than most of the other humans around.

I, similarly and right from the start, didn't believe in religion either. The really surprising thing, from my point of view, was finding out that this was an occasion when the adults genuinely did believe the rubbish themselves, and seriously expected me to do so too, and weren't simply lying as before. That's when I knew I was stuck on a planet on which I was greatly outnumbered by the liars, the gullible and the delusional.

The thing is though that there wasn't really a moment of suddenly becoming an atheist and a-santa-ist. I tested the claim because I already didn't believe it. So some proportion of atheists (and cynics and scientists) would seem to be born that way rather than made. Particular experiences may make a difference for some people and allow them to become atheists from a shakier start but, on the flip side, there may well be people whose grasp of reality is never going to be good enough for them not to be theists and pixie-ists and UFO-ists etc.

You know the funniest thing about this is that is exactly how I first started to question the validity of God. My uncle told me that there was no Santa Claus and no Easter Bunny, so it just stood to reason....

The sticking point for me was trying to figure out why the grownups would build all of those churches just to fool us kids. And then it dawned on me that they might be being fooled as well.

I was seven.

And I was never the same again.

A sack? Naaah. Over here there's just a devil figure who carries a rod for beating naughty children, who additionally get a piece of coal instead of sweets from St Nicholas on December 6th.

What G. Tingey said. In Austria (at least) he's called Krampus, but is also associated with December 5th (the day Mozart died in 1791, incidentally).

that Jesus guy rising from the dead after 7 days.

On the third day -- so that the OT prophecy of "after three days" would be fulfilled.