In a field of nightmares, it takes a special person to elevate themselves to the position of the worst of the worst…and Huckabee is that special person.
Here's his special take on the purpose of his presidency…
I didn't get into politics because I thought government had a better answer. I got into politics because I knew government didn't have the real answers, that the real answers lie in accepting Jesus Christ into our lives…I hope we answer the alarm clock and take this nation back for Christ.
And here is his special rationalization for denying gays equal rights…
I don't think the issue's about being against gay marriage. It's about being for traditional marriage and articulating the reason that's important. You have to have a basic family structure. There's never been a civilization that has rewritten what marriage and family means and survived.
Actually, he's right. Every civilization redefines its social fabric over time, and no civilization has lasted forever.
I've also learned over my lifetime that the individual will always find that humanity can reach some new, lower depth. I thought Nixon was the worst president ever, until Reagan came along; I thought he was the worst, until W came along; and now I see to my dismay that yes, we could possibly have a president who is even worse than George W. Bush.
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so, Huckabee, what civilizations have KEPT the "traditional" family structure and still survived?
No...there is no possible way Huckabee could be as bad as Bush. He doesn't have the big Neo-con movement behind him. He would probably be ineffective.
We've redefined marriage up here in Canada, and it seems that we're doing quite well. Our dollar is stronger than yours, our economy is better than yours, though you do seem to have the edge in hockey prowess these days.
Granted, we do have psychos killing their daughters because of what they wear, but that doesn't have anything to do with relig...oh crap!
I'm confused. Are we an ideological descendent of Babylon, Athens, Rome, and Carthage, or are we an ideological descendent of some idealized anachronistic caricature of the Hebrew people?
Maybe Huckabee can teach us a bit about history, as well as science and ethics and all these other subjects he's clearly an expert on.
Fuck you Huckabee. Read a fucking anthro text on kinship, you lying, deceitful, ignorant, steaming pile of shit.
I'm signing off Pharyngula for the rest of the day, because today, for some reason, I'm so on edge about these assholes I'm about to walk outside my office an punch the nearest priest. And religious or not, the nearest priest probably doesn't deserve that.
I thought Nixon was the worst president ever, until Reagan came along; I thought he was the worst, until W came along; and now I see to my dismay that yes, we could possibly have a president who is even worse than George W. Bush.
Every once in a while I have to remind myself of when I was proud to be an American.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=USMGOy6ygDg
Maybe someday I will be proud again.
Has anybody else read the Huckabee article on the nytimes.com?
Oh...no...you all have jobs where you have to work?
oh well...either way. If this man becomes president I'm moving.
Huckabee sounds like Bush all over again. The light at the end of the tunnel was supposed to be that no matter what his administration has to end and somebody, anybody else will be president. I really don't think I can take it if someone just like Bush ends up being the next president.
To make matters worse, Hilary is the top democrat candidate and polls have indicated she would lose in an election next to all 5 top republican contenders. Including Huckabee.
In the interests of self preservation I think we need to all register as republicans so that we can vote in their primaries to make sure the republican candidate A) won't be Huckabee, and B) is one of the really unpopular choices so that then the democratic candidate would win the election.
If I had to rate the republican presidents from bad to worst I'd go Bush#1 > Ford > Reagan >> Nixon >>> Bush #2.
Are you kidding? This is GLORIOUS. If Huckabee wins this thing is over. Dems win in a landslide.
If This Goes On...
Chris- that's what I thought when they nominated the gibbering idiot Reagan...
Andrew Sullivan called Huckabee's current rise among the GOP candidates "Rove's Frankenstein moment."
http://normdoering.blogspot.com/2007/11/roves-frankenstein.html
It's not Huckabee, it's the Christianists who are pushing him to the top. There are worse out there than Huckabee that have wanted to be president -- Remember, Pat Robertson himself was once a Republican candidate.
Although I should add that I think Huckabee will just split with Romney, leaving Guiliani as the winner. He will be much harder to beat.
@5 and clapping
Brownian, OM's comment reads like a watered-down, cheap imitation of how I feel about Huckabee. Huckabee's comments are scarry, and his supporters scarrier.
Wow, poor Brownian (#5) is having a tense moment. Can't say as I blame him. Definitely agree about the anthro text.
However, Huckabee's not trying to teach kinship relationships. He's trying to coopt the whole concept of 'the family' for his demographic and paint the rest of us as 'anti-family.'
The response to this is simple: what is more destructive to family dynamics, and more harmful to kids generally, than divorce, especially the nasty, never-ending contentious kind? And yet the evangelical pews are FILLED to the rafters with people on their second, third etc. marriage! Where's the evangelical outrage over the skyrocketing divorce rate, including that of evangelicals?
Huckabillee for President!
Wellllll, people get the government that they deserve, or so it's said. (Readers of Pharyngula excepted.)
Religion and politics don't mix. Wasn't Jesus killed because of a religion's political agenda?
The Republican internecine war has begun, with the first strike being Huckabee's "question" : "Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?"
See http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20071211/huckabee-mormons/
Mutual Assured Destruction. Oh, this should be good.
Hey cheer up. After Huckabee gets through ruining the country, who will come after him? Given the current progression, someone even worse. You are looking into a bottomless well.
If Huckabee gets elected, I'm just going to give up on the USA. Toynbee said that 18 out of 22 civilizations fell from within. After trying to stop the 23rd, if it is inevitable, one might just as well make some popcorn and watch.
Spain redefined marriage. It's still there, much to the annoyance of people here in Portugal. Was there ever a USan election where so many candidates looked they might be the last president of the current republic? Huckabee going for theocracy, Guiliani for outright fascism, Dr. Paul trying to dismantle the state and being overthrown in a bloody coup....
The scariest part of all is that he's looking more and more like the future Republican nominee. Just look at the RCP averages and trends for Iowa:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/ia/iowa_republic…
And at the national level:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/republican_pr…
He's even leading at the national level by the Rasmussen poll.
Of course, one look at the other Republicans leads to one conclusion: The Democratic nominee better win the presidency or we are all doomed.
Why thanks, I feel ever so much more cheerful now. ;)
PZ,
Why do you keep doing that?
I just don't get it.
What are you trying to prove?
Can't you leave a dying parapalegic alone for just once?
Huckabee will never win. Acutally I don't think Romney or Gulliani could win either.
Of course I meant "paraplegic"
@8: Actually, some polls show Huckabee losing to the leading Democratic candidates, and losing handily. And yes, that includes losing to Hillary.
The likely source of Huckabee's understanding of Mormonism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy0d1HbItOo
Whether or not it reflects LDS beliefs is another thing--but it is kinda cool in a strange sci-fi sort of way. Compare and contrast with the Hubbard's creation myth.
So this guy basically said "F*ck the separation of church and state. If I get into the white house, I'm gonna teach all you godless secularists how to love jebus properly." It's a scary thought. Yes, it's unlikely that he'll be our next president but if that's the case, I'm packing up my sh*t the next day and getting the hell out of here.
I don't know if I accept this or not. There have been more than a few studies that show that children who grow up in 'intact' families where the parents don't get along have hard times perceiving and forming positive relationships later.
A long nasty divorce does no favors to anyone but the divorce itself may not be the problem.
That being said a loving home for children is of course the best fit.
What about this piece of flat-out insane pandering from that loon?
Huckabee: "I think we ought to be out there talking about ways to reduce energy consumption and waste. And we ought to declare that we will be free of energy consumption in this country within a decade, bold as that is."
Yes, you read that right -- free of energy consumption.
I guess that will solve the 'obesity crisis' along with all the others.
sigh.
no hugs for thugs,
Shirley Knott
free of energy consumption
Nope...we don't need to know anything about science, ladies and gentlemen. We can just trust the Bible as a text. It's the only book you need to read.
Free of energy consumption? Please just tell me that's like a typo or something, right? I mean, even a complete fuckwit like Huckabillie understands the term "consumption", right?
So, how hard is it to emigrate to Canada? I hear that Canadian ballet is the best.
Hick a bee.
I can't believe Huckabee, he is such a religious wackjob that it almost baffles the mind. I mean I don't really like any of the Republican candidates, and Mittler has shown himself to be a religious bigot and generally ignorant possibility, but Huckabee is just evil.
Having spent two years taking classes at a Seminary, I look at people like Huckabee, and ask myself, did they sleep through it all? Or did he just go to a really substandard seminary, without any actual history or critique?
Um... speaking as a representative for The Rest of the World (tm), could you perhaps refrain form electing a theocratic tyrant with access to all your nuclear weapons? We're rather worried about that, you see. Kthxbye.
Horrible - yes. "Worst of the worst" - not quite. Watching the Republicans debate, I'd have to give that title to Alan Keyes, who manages to invoke god more often than even Huckabee.
Huckabee is, however, infinitely more frightening given his current popularity. And he seems to have that same anti-intellectual charm that Bush used so well to win the votes of the ignorant.
Yup and gay people may tie the knot over here in the UK and our pound is very much higher than your dollar. Anecdote has it that it is only the Brits who are keeping the shops in New York afloat. Meanwhile back home in New Zealand which has a better, deeper set civil partnership system than here the government has such a large surplus it is using it to, gasp! pay for infrastructure without borrowing! it's enough to make an international banker feel faint (little wonder that the leader of the right is an international banker, after a palace coup, the madness must be stopped).
So I'm afraid the evidence says otherwise Mr Huckabee, you are plain wrong.
@26 Well in that case I feel better, last zogby poll summations I read on sunday suggested otherwise but things seem to have changed for the better since then. There is still no excuse for Huckabee heading to the top of the republican race though.
Well, let's consider his cabinet choices:
Secretary of State: Chuck Norris.
Secretary of the Treasury: Creflo Dollar.
Press Secretary: Rush Limbaugh.
Minister for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice: Ted Haggard.
Grand Poobah of All Things Scientifical: Kent Hovind.
The entertainment value of such a comical tragedy (like watching circus clowns get run over by a train) alone is almost worth the price of admission. Almost.
Ted D: "could you perhaps refrain form electing a theocratic tyrant"
Doing the best we can, I'm certainly not voting for him. I myself haven't found a way to talk sense into xian fundamentalists (who I'm pretty sure are the ones who would vote for him) but if you have any suggestions I'm all ears.
What about this piece of flat-out insane pandering from that loon?
Huckabee: "I think we ought to be out there talking about ways to reduce energy consumption and waste. And we ought to declare that we will be free of energy consumption in this country within a decade, bold as that is."
Source?
Yeah, that'd be scary if the poll (singular) wasn't from a laughably inept and inaccurate company with a long and ignoble history of getting it all wrong.
The original source for the Energy-Free Huckabee quote is the Sierra Club link tinyurled below.
http://tinyurl.com/33es3q
Kind of off topic, but can today (12-12) be considered "gross" day?
FrumiousBandersnark wrote:
You'll need some positions for David Barton the guy who flagrantly used fake "quotes" from our founding fathers in his attempt to rewrite history and for Tim LaHaye, writer of the Left Behind series.
http://normdoering.blogspot.com/2007/12/huckabee-and-christianists.html
Ya know what kills about the Repubs? If a Democratic political figure came out and said, "Heeeeey, let's all drive Prius's and from now on everybody will eat a vegan diet," with the exception of about 6 acupuncturists living on a communal farm in New Hampshire, we'd mostly all chuckle and wave them away. A Repub candidate says something equally out there, but in the opposite direction (ie, Eeeevolution is for monkeys, put AIDS patients in camps, or scary Mexicans are gonna blow us all up!!!), and they run him for Preznit? Cheers, guys, but, wow.
Answer... the alarm clock?
My senile grandmother used to do that.
I'm so on edge about these assholes I'm about to walk outside my office an punch the nearest priest.
Save the entrails!
Funny, I just wrote about Huckabee and his religious beliefs yesterday:
http://tinyfrog.wordpress.com/2007/12/11/huckabee-and-the-2008-election/
Karey, from all the way back at #8
Sometimes, you find out that the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train.
That's it. If Huckabee wins, I'm taking up fiddle lessons*, filling my yard with hungry lions and changing my name to Nero.
And, I swear, the first doughy-headed Christian who waddles by carping on about being persecuted will quickly be reminded that they fucking deserve the persecution for fucking up a really nice country in which to live.
*I know. The fiddle is historically inaccurate since Nero most likely played the lyre. However, I think I prefer the fiddle because there could be certain perks to carrying a violin case in a Christian Nation&trade
Now that Chucklebee has thrown down the gauntlet by firing a salvo at Romney's Mormonism, let's have a good old-fashioned debate about the idiosyncracies of his particular superstitions too.
Shirley Knott, et.al.
I think I know what Huckabee's getting onto when he talks about energy independence.
I think his big plan is to wrap lots of copper wire around Thomas Jefferson's coffin, stick it between two magnets, and just keep talking...
HP,
It's the 'last' priest. You have to be more patient. Now how one can be sure that it is indeed the last priest, I couldn't say.
I also have to wonder what happens if the last king is long gone when the moment finally comes. Perhaps I'm just too literal minded to understand philosophy.
Diderot was probably just letting out his frustration, at the time.
@54, cute, but he's NOT talking about 'energy independance'.
He's talking about ending energy consumption. And he means it, insofar as any baptist minister is capable of sincerity rather than mere sin.
To the best of my knowlege, that would amount to death, in every sense of the term.
Not that universal death is out of range for Rethuglican wackiness, but...
no hugs for thugs,
Shirley Knott
Here in the UK we now have what is in effect gay marriage, although in order to stop the religious going totally ape it the correct term is "civil partnership". People just call it gay marriage anyway.
We also allow gays to serve openly in the military, and the military have even taken to sending recruiters to gay rallies and advertising in media aimed at gays.
I cannot say I have noticed that society has is any less cohesive following all this. In fact the number of heterosexual marriages seems to be on the rise.
All of this leads me to conclude Huckerbee is a dickhead.
Huckabee sounds great; with statements not too dissimilar to those of Abraham Lincoln.
http://members.tripod.com/~greatamericanhistory/gr02004.htm
melior wrote:
Unfortunately, Mitt won't play that game because he'll know he'll get clobbered. What can he do? Ask Fhuckabee if he handles snakes and drinks poison like the New Testament says? Get Pluckabee to admit he believes in demons?
I wish. It would demonstrate that freedom of religion is really the freedom to be batshit crazy.
Clearly, the Lowest Common Denominator has not been reached yet with Bush. With Hucksterbee, we're going not only going to be staring at a gaping abyss, but we'll be neck deep within it. The loads of pure and utter horseshit that this asshead produces is beyond comparison. How much more of a theocracy do we need?
With this asshole in charge, we're not going to be much different then Saudi Arabia, or Iran. All of these fuckers carry their illogical, and stupid religious beliefs like a badge. One day, it will be a badge of shame, not acceptance.
Let's be reminded that had Al Gore chosen a better VP candidate then Lieberman, we wouldn't be in this rotten mess. He had to go ahead and choose a neo-conservative idiot who was going to take Saturdays off from policy work. Neither party is the party of rationality either. This rant can't end without some optimism so here goes. May all the candidates in both parties mysteriously suffer a neuro-degenerative brain disorder (worse then the one they already have)and drop off the face of politics. Neither of these badge wearing religious idiots deserves to be President. In place, perhaps a well known Squidophile may be selected on an interim basis. If he chooses to neglect that duty, I'm sure there's a certain also well known astrophile waiting to glamorize the spotlight.
Actually, the worst president in American History is the piece of filth, James Earl Carter, although Dubya is giving him a run for his money.
Hmmm ... I'd go for: Bush#1 > Nixon > Ford >> Reagan >>> Bush #2
At least we agree on the ends.
In a way, I was hoping that the GOP would nominate Huckabee, because that might increase Democrat participation in other races, and produce a larger majority in the Senate, and so on...
But thinking about it more, I recalled the Swift Boat incident, in which Republicans lied about the Democrat's candidate, and turned the 2004 race around.
I can see that happening again.
It would not be a good thing if the GOP nominates the biggest clown in the clownmobile, because that clown could be our next commander-in-chief. In that light, I guess I gotta hope the Republicans nominate, blech, someone else, because I just don't want any of 'em.
But Huckabee, least of all. Of the remaining GOP candidates, I think he's the worst.
My ancestors washed up on the shores of the future Massachusetts almost 400 years ago. In January 2004, my family picked up stakes and moved to Canada. Personally, I think we deserve some credit for sticking it out so long. In any case, we're now permanent residents. Next year we can apply for citizenship. Canada isn;t utopia but I can't tell you how great it feels to be in the Great White North. I've had Americans ask if it won't bother me to swear fealty to the Queen of England. I have to laugh -- that coming from citizens of a country run by GW Bush, Dick Cheney, and other assorted thugs, thieves, and scoundrels.
Way back at #18 Richard stated "Wellllll, people get the government that they deserve, or so it's said."
Made me immediately think of an Onion "American Voices" comment:
"I guess they say you get the government you deserve, but I don't remember knife-raping any retarded nuns."
CanadaGoose. I can trace my lineage back to the Mayflower and the native Americans and I'm thinkin' of heading up there too if Huckabee wins. Got room for some more?
ROTFL!
My night is saved. :-)
------------
Well, Lincoln's faith was a little more complex than Huckabee's or for that matter yours.
-- cited in chapter 14 of part 5 of Six Historic Americans by John Ramsburg
-- cited in What Great Men Think Of Religion by Ira Cardiff
-- in a letter to Judge J.S. Wakefield, after the death of Willie Lincoln
-- Lincoln's wife, Mary Todd Lincoln, in Toward The Mystery
-- this last one quoted in Henry O. Dormann, compiler, The Speaker's Book of Quotations, New York: Ballantine Books, 1987, p. 127
...and finally:
Do you think PZ made all these quotes up?
Looks like Lincoln was, at least privately, a deist (which makes it very easy for your source to paint him as a deeply religious man -- he probably was one).
---------------
We also wouldn't be in there if the ballots in Florida had been counted in a legal way...
Huckabillee for President!
I thought it was spelled Hickabillee
Hmmm. So Ross Nixon's comment, linking to a piece that tried to make a Huckabee out of Lincoln, was deleted. (It was number 58.) Still, our favorite troll isn't in the Dungeon, nor even On Notice. ~:-|
Just curious, which polls are showing Clinton losing to all 5 of the major GOP candidates, the polls I've seen show her beating them by a minimum of 3%, so including a margin of error, at worst, dead even.
Ross Nixon never fails to disappoint! I mean, he never fails to entertain!
(Uh but since when is Jimmy Carter the worst U.S. President in history?)
Actually, the worst president in American History is the piece of filth, James Earl Carter, although Dubya is giving him a run for his money.
To second Kseniya's comment, since when, and by what measure, is Carter the worst president in American History?
"So this guy basically said "F*ck the separation of church and state. If I get into the white house, I'm gonna teach all you godless secularists how to love jebus properly."
And the geldings and capons in Congress still won't have what it takes to impeach an obvious criminal. Just don't let 'em lie about getting a blowjob!
And for the record, I think Carter was the best president of the 20th century, if not the history of the republic. He was a religious nut, but did not impose his views on anyone else. He was a well educated, honorable man. The inflation of his tenure in office was the artifact of Nixon's shady dealings in 1972.
The country doesn't want an honorable man, they want to be told what they want to hear, praise Jebus!
Don't blame you. The rapture might come early and be televised.
You should be worried. The day Huckabee becomes president a lot of states will declare themselves nuclear free countries. And then start very quietly building nukes like mad just in case.
Might be worth stockpiling wine and popcorn. If the Christofascists destroy the country or the world, what else can we do?
In reply to #4, who asked if Huckabee could teach us anything about science.
I've discovered he is no expert in that area. He has been fooled by the AGW hoax.
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59176
Maybe Ron Paul would be a better choice? He certainly sounds like a climate realist to me.
Huckabee is batshit insane. Does he wake up in the morning to the sound of the alarm clock, pick it up and ask, "Jesus, is that you?" before trying to use the station dial to phone his relatives? I'm guessing he does.
Mwuahahahahahaha, the nickname is spreading like Aids in catholic oppressed Africa!
My work here is done.
Oh, this is rich. Thanks, Ross!
WingNutDaily reports:
Go, Mittwit! Cuz like yeah, it's so unfair how the USA has been the sole vanguard of AGW awareness, policy formulation and implementation!
Kyoto, Mitt. Kyoto.
Kyoto.
The cartoon linked to in #30 is essentially correct in the beliefs of the Mormons, according to the things I've heard living in Utah for 25 years. I married a Mormon, but we have not been pressured to divorce, however.
The sectarian conflicts are starting already.
Historically Xians have persecuted and massacred Mormons, regarding them as a heretical cult. The Mormons have evened the score by persecuting Xians and massacring them back. Business as usual.
Theocracies usually fail due to corruption and sectarian infighting. Those in power loot the treasury and persecute heretics, nobelievers, and anyone else they can think of. Then they start fighting among themselves.
This is just so Dark Ages. Whatever, the American Taliban will end up like the Afghani one. Sitting on a pile of rubble while everyone sincerely, devoutly wishes they were long gone to the afterlife.
And BTW, Huckabee might be right.
If this guy is to be believed, Huckabee could win.
You only need to watch a few minutes of this to get the idea, but it's worth watching at least half of it.
Dear fellow readers,
Might I gently suggest a deep breath for all of you? A presidential election is not the most important event in my life next year, and I hope not in yours, either.
The strident personal attacks, president-rating, religion-baiting comments cannot possibly be helpful to anyone. And repeating proven false talking points about the 2000 Florida presidential vote just make us sound uninformed.
Stay classy, men and women of science!
No matter the winner we will prosper and thrive. And STFU about moving to another country. It is undignified and beneath you.
So here's what I want to know.
Totally apart from the terrifying theocracy crap, which everyone else has been covering so effectively:
Why the f*** do people continue to run for government office who don't believe in government?
And why the triple-f*** do people keep voting for them?
When government is run by people who don't believe in the basic idea of government, it gets run completely ineptly and completely corruptly. (As opposed to when it's run by people who think government might actually be a good idea if it's done right. Then it gets run somewhat less ineptly and corruptly.)
I knew government didn't have the real answers, that the real answers lie in accepting Jesus Christ into our lives...I hope we answer the alarm clock and take this nation back for Christ.
The only "real answer" we need is how to stop this country from breeding fundie idiots like you, Mike.
He's like Bush with a few more brain cells. Very, very scary.
Uh but since when is Jimmy Carter the worst U.S. President in history?
He never met a dictator (including Ceaucescu, Kim Il Sung, Chavez, Castro, Noriega) whom he didn't like.
That's unfortunate.
Dr. kill, you say: "STFU about moving to another country. It is undignified and beneath you."
Why would I not show interest in moving to someplace where the populace, polititians and government better reflect my values? Who are you to tell me it's undignified to talk about that? I served in the Marines, I'm certainly not a US hater, so maybe what you should do is take your own advice and shut the fuck up instead of telling us we shouldn't express interest in living somewhere else. You come across as a complete ass.
Provide even a sketch of a reasonable argument that it didn't make an enormous difference who moved into the White House in January, 2001, and I might start to listen to you. Might.
Without a serious counter-religious movement in the US, we're going to help usher in the world's most populous theocracy. Neither of these faith-slinging presidential candidates are worthy of the presidency. Republican or Democrat, they are buried neck deep in their own excrement. The unfortunate part is the rest of us forcibly dragged down into the same pile of shit. As long as corporations and the military-industrial complex supports these insanely irrational individuals, we're all doomed to a fetid and stagnant future.
THE SOLUTION
First, any presidential candidate must pass a comprehensive High School equivalent science exam. Since a solid foundation is science helps to establish critical thinking skills and the development of policy through evidence based facts.
Second, abolish the salary of the President, as well as Congress and the Judiciary. House the members of Congress in a secure dorm-like environment (just the same for the Supreme Court, and I guess the president could continue to reside in the White House), with their basic daily needs met, but not much more. So the only financial insentive the President, Congress, and the Supreme Court receive is for basic daily expenses.
Third, establish a scientific council, whose purpose would be to help develop national policy factually and with a decent global perspective.
We Americans cannot continue to remain stagnant and allow these fucking religious morons to determine our national agenda. We must do all we can to allow for a wide seperation of chuch and state. No candidate should ever mention their religious beliefs. In fact, they can believe all they want at home, but when it comes to vital decisions, they should be able to demonstrate rational thought, a grounded understanding of the sciences, geography, national policy, and global culture and economy. Let's take this election out of the hands of fucking morons and put it in the hands of literate, rational folks.
It's hard to write cohesively when you're annoyed and on a rant. Please disregard the grammatical errors and half completed sentences (I know there's at least 2).
Sounds sketchy. I remember what went on back when I lived in college dorms. I also know that US Congressmen are a LOT less moral than college kids who are just out to have a good time.
And now you see why I wouldn't vote for Huckabee with a gun to my head. As trite as it may sound, I love my country too much to be a part of inflicting a blatant Theocrat on it.
Some Guy, perhaps you could tell us which US President hasn't had friendly relations with dictators.
The original source for the Energy-Free Huckabee quote is the Sierra Club link tinyurled below.
Apparently he meant "free of foreign oil", not "energy consumption". Naive and misspoken as those comments might have been, they weren't scary, unlike his other comments being discussed here.
He never met a dictator (including Ceaucescu, Kim Il Sung, Chavez, Castro, Noriega) whom he didn't like.
You're full of crap on several counts, not least of which is that Chavez isn't a dictator. His demonization is much like that of Allende and others who resisted the banana repubicization of South and Central America by U.S. corporations. Venezuela has lots and lots of oil, and using those proceeds to help the Venezuelan people is considered anathema in some quarters.
truth machine:
Chavez is still way more authoritarian than I personally am comfortable with. I was more or less okay with him up until he essentially gained the ability to rule by fiat, but the recent referendum put the kibosh on any further push in that direction, and he's evidently smart enough to know when he's been beat. So, no, not a dictator, but he does seem to give indications of wishing he was.
Man, your country is a trainwreck. Repulsive, but just ... can't ... look ... away. Come on, do something about this crap would you.
Canada Goose back when I had to swear allegiance to Lizzie and all her spawn to become a citizen (of NZ) rather than a subject (of UK of GB & NI) I had my fingers crossed. It is only words. I just hope I can get back home in time to vote for republicanism in the inevitable referendum. Looks like Oz will beat us to it now Howard is gone, so I suspect that will hurry things along.
Look at it this way, Lizzie's likely political descendants in Canada will be elected presidents. So think of it that you are swearing allegiance to what they and she represent, which is Canadian sovereignty whether or not an actual sovereign is involved.
So swear away.
True, but then again, so is Bush. Who has Chavez tortured lately? Who has he invaded based on bald-faced lies?
Chavez (like Castro before him) is a diversion from crimes closer to home. Don't fall for it. Pay some attention to the man behind the curtain.
Some Guy: If your idea of "like" is "didn't start a war with", then I think you'll find a lot of presidents who have "liked" dictators. By that measure, FDR "liked" Hitler, or why wait until Pearl Harbor to enter the war? It's a ridiculous standard.
Re Kseniya & dogmeatib
Scumbag antisemite James Earl Carters' incompetent handling of the Iranian situation in 1979 and 1980 has saddled his successors with the mess he left there.
I dunno about that: Huckabee, for all his whackjob "ideas," seems to be able to project a very affable, friendly demeanor, and for a large number of voters (and I don't just mean committed members of the Christian right, here), the fact that he's a former pastor will identify him as a "good person." Don't forget that he also has personal story of overcoming adversity (overweight) that will be appealing to many voters.
Huckabee actually scares me more than Giuliani -- who can't fail to look like a sleazy, corrupt serial adulterer, and whose NYC cred actually works against him in the South and in rural areas generally -- or Romney -- who, fairly or not, will be sunk by his kooky (as most 'murricans see it) religion.
It's hard to remember this now, after everything that's happened since, but in 2000 Dubya seemed like a really nice guy. He was always smiling and laughing, had a great relationship with the press (including those who were predisposed to dislike his politics), and just generally seemed like he'd be more fun to have a (nonalcoholic, of course) beer with than the (then) scowling, uptight Gore. Most people knew that Gore was smarter, and more articulate, and better qualified, but they liked Bush, and were therefore willing to ignore his ultraconservative ideas (aided, of course, by the fact that his campaign lied through its collective teeth about how conservative he really was). Teh intertoobz makes it harder to hide your true stripes now than it was in 2000, but still...
I'm worried that, particularly in a Huckabee-Hillary race, style might win over substance again. I only joked about moving to Canada (or NZ or Oz) after the 2004 election; if Huckabee (or any Republican, really... but especially Huckabee) wins in 2008, I might be compelled to really do it. I only hope they won't have banned immigration from the U.S. by then.
As for the nominations for a Mount Rushmore of Bad Presidents, I agree with Kseniya and others that there's no way Carter belongs on the list. He was unpopular in office largely because the country was in a dark place at the time (he wasn't wrong about "malaise") that was not really of his making. He was one of the smartest presidents we've ever had, and has been one of the most valuable ex-presidents ever, and I think his performance in office will be increasingly well regarded as we gain more historical perspective.
Reagan, OTOH, will, I think, tend to sink ever farther as historical perspective increases: His popularity was based on his undeniable personal charm; as he is increasingly evaluated by historians who didn't witness said charm first-hand, the truly epochal badness of his policies will emerge. Dubya may be the worst president ever (certainly the worst in my lifetime) in terms of day-to-day performance in office... but it's impossible to ignore the fact that it was the Reagan "revolution" that made something like Dubya possible.
Ford, BTW, was a cypher: He was a caretaker, and not (IMHO) impactful enough to qualify for the Big Four of badness. Special badness points for pardoning Nixon, of course, but still not Hall of Fame material.
Evidence that Jimmy Carter is a "scumbag":
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/10/11/nobel.citation/index.ht…
'nuff said.
I've had Americans ask if it won't bother me to swear fealty to the Queen of England.
The Queen of England is also technically Queen of Canada and is technically as much a Canadian as the Prime Minister, although not even many Canadians think of her that way. It's going to be interesting when the sceptre passes to Chuck, because I think most people feel he's a bit of a dolt.
Executive power in Canada is held by the Governor General, who is a political appointee. This is one of the weaknesses in our system of government.
However, it is a strength that religious fundamentalist politicos have to tone down their Jesus rhetoric if they want to get elected. Too much Jesus is a ticket to losing an election. Nobody cares about politicians having a little Jesus, as long as it's kept to themselves.
There is no peaceful solution to the increasing ignorance. We must revolt. "sit back and watch" - right like they are going to learn. These people are probably the lowest forms of human life. it is thew dark ages all over again indeed. The whole lot of them have yet to evolve mentally and intellectually. Revolution is the most effective way to make changes - it always has been. There are too many of them? - sure - but werent there too many British when we earned our own country centuries ago? lets take it back. This country was built on religious freedom - not religious oppression.
A second plausible solution is to instigate a war with most of Islam(or even more of - depending on how you look at it) - the beehive in the middle east is easy to stir up - a few strings pulled here and there and we could have just about every young christian nut heading over there for yet another crusade. Like killing two birds with 1 stone. The only problem arises is that people over there have a nasty habit of using "unconventional" warfare. Perhaps the UN can set up some guidelines and boundaries. No missiles/nukes etc. OF course we have seen how effective the UN is.. guidelines and boundaries or not - a war with iran or maybe a tussle with turkey - couldnt hurt. Most of our military will be quite occupied leaving our country wide-open for some change around here.
maybe people like mittler or fhuckabee could further anger the intellectual community here. let them seep into office. People - dont leave this country wait for the chance to strike. Xtian fundamentalism is an infection - all we have to do is let it fester in the whitehouse untill it pops like a huge pimple of ignorance - when it pops - bleed it out - bleed all of them out. Maybe the american people will grow a brain and see the stupidity of these political actors. Enough people will know better and we can pit the religious sects against eachother - they are stupid - it will be easy. let them kill eachother untill there are few enough of them to overtake them.
Sorry for multiple posts; I'm sorta' catching up on this thread:
IMHO, you couldn't be more wrong: The U.S. presidential election will be the most important event in all our lives (and I'm including those of you who don't live in the U.S.) next year. If you think otherwise, you just don't understand what's at stake... and this relates to those of us chattering nervously about emigrating, too.
I'm intensely proud of my country. While I'm aware there's a long litany of shameful things we have done (and shameful regimes we've befriended), I'm convinced that the U.S. has been good to its citizens and, as a nation, has been a net positive for the world at large, a force (on balance) for truth, peace, and social justice. Since WWII, we have been a military power essentially unchallenged in the world, and could have done pretty much whatever we wanted (as long as we didn't push first the Soviets and now the Chinese over the nuclear edge), and we've used that power, on the whole, with discretion and restraint. As recently as 2001, most of the so-called Free World considered us a valuable friend, and essentially the whole world was ready to spring to our defense when we were attacked.
Electing the wrong president (and reelecting him, to our everlasting shame) has shattered all that. By the time they leave office, the Bushies will have damaged this nation, both domestically and in international terms, in ways that will take decades to repair under the best imaginable scenarios. Electing a president who would continue (or even worsen) the Bush administration's failures rather than beginning to reverse them would be a devastating mistake, not only for ourselves but for the whole world: We are a global economic and military power, for better or for worse; if it's "for worse," everybody's in trouble.
As for grumbling about emigrating... For how many consecutive elections do my fellow citizens have to endorse a kind of government I'm decidedly not proud of before I conclude this is no longer the nation I once loved? I'm not at that point yet (witness that I'm typing this in Connecticut, and not in Montreal or Toronto or Auckland or Sydney), but it's getting easier and easier to imagine reaching that point. A Huckabee election might just seal the deal.
Good stuff, Bill.
Writing from Boston, I concur.
Citizenship is relational. It's about a relationship to a particular state. It's also about membership in that "imagined community" of the nation (as Anderson so wonderfully put it). Sometimes, there are relationships you want to sever. If my fellow citizens continue to send us down the wrong path--electing idiots, ignoring science, pursuing imperial wars--what's wrong with severing that relationship? I've ended personal relationships because people had the "hate the sin, love the sinner" attitude toward my being gay. You know, sometimes it makes sense to sever a relationship with a nation. Sometimes.
Well said Bill.
SLC is a nut job.
Let's not forget that 52 of the 55 founding fathers of this country were EVANGELIC CHRISTIANS!! They never meant to keep church out of government;they wanted the government to stay out of our churches. We have it all backwards. It is no wonder our country is starting to crumble upon itself. By looking at all of the postings, the only people that are speaking out are the people who represent the minority. Christians need to stand up and speak up! We are letting people with questionable morals to make the major decisions for us. Huckabee is right on. If everyone that posted their comments received Christ as their saviour, we would actually see things start to change for the better. So many of you are so defensive of your lifestyles that you act out in anger when you hear the truth. Huckabee is preaching the TRUTH! Hear it! Know it! Become a true Christian and seek a change in yourself and this world so you can really make a difference through the grace and leadership of God.
Another Nut Job.
Fucking hell.
I've said it before, PZ needs to do something about attracting a better quality of troll. The ones we generally see around here are just too lame to provide any amusement.
OMG! Lol! SRV, you are one seriously confused, misinformed, and sad little man (or woman). Wish I had time to flay the skin off your pathetic comment but I've got office hours in 45mn. Good luck with your whole god thing. Let me know how that works out.
SRV: Please hush, the grown-ups are trying to have a discussion here.
Joe Conason on Huckabee's record of freeing born again violent criminals
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20071212_the_mercy_of_mike_huckabee/
"[Huckabee's] record in granting clemency and pardons demonstrates the dangers of religious zealotry in power.
The most infamous case of Huckabee's misplaced mercy involves a rapist and murderer named Wayne Dumond, now deceased, who originally went to prison in Arkansas for raping a distant cousin of Bill Clinton's. ...
When Huckabee became governor, he supported and evidently engineered a parole for Dumond, winning applause from the Republican right--and indirectly causing the death of a young woman whom the former prisoner later raped and killed in Missouri. ...
Influenced by his fellow pastors, as well as by friends and relatives of inmates, Huckabee appears to have practiced what might be called "Christian cronyism."
The worst example of that syndrome ... concerned a killer named Glen Green, sentenced to prison for life after confessing to the savage rape and murder of a teenage girl. An Air Force sergeant, Green had bludgeoned the woman with nunchucks, violated her almost lifeless body, run over her with his car and dumped her in a bayou. A preacher friend of Huckabee's convinced him that the girl's murder had been an "accident" and that the convict had repented, come to Jesus and therefore should be freed.
... after the governor announced that Green would be released, a furious public eventually forced him to reverse his decision. Still, he insisted on releasing a number of murderers and other violent criminals despite protests from prosecutors."
----------------
Remember Karla Faye Tucker, the ax murder who repented and was born again in prison, resulting in Christian conservatives (and the inevitable celebrities) pleading for her not to be executed? GW Bush, in contrast to Huckabee, was unmoved:
Tucker Carlson, Talk, 1999.
"In the week before [Karla Faye Tucker's] execution, Bush says, Bianca Jagger and a number of other protesters came to Austin to demand clemency for Tucker. "Did you meet with any of them?" I ask.
Bush whips around and stares at me. "No, I didn't meet with any of them," he snaps, as though I've just asked the dumbest, most offensive question ever posed. "I didn't meet with Larry King either when he came down for it. I watched his interview with [Tucker], though. He asked her real difficult questions, like 'What would you say to Governor Bush?' "
"What was her answer?" I wonder.
"Please," Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, "don't kill me.""
John Carroll of the San Francisco Chronicle has a really good column on the GOP candidates (mostly Mitt and Mike)today.
Enjoy it here.
(Doesn't "Mitt and Mike" sound like the name of a really bad comic strip?)
MikeM: That was a wonderful column, and now that Molly is gone, I wish this guy could have national syndication. Except for the very end of it where he says that Hillary would crush any of those candidates. ARGH. DON'T say that. It must be easy to make those sorts of proclamations from San Francisco, but there's a whole 'nother country out there. I live in a state where I absolutely positively know that the people will vote in whoever has the R by his name, no matter how batshit crazy he is. It's a small state, but it's just one of a million tiny cuts.
SRV, mind mentioning which 3 founding fathers you think weren't EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS? I was going to respond to your whole post, but as I was reading it I blacked out and woke up with a nosebleed, so we'll take it one piece at at time.
Hey PZ,
Why don't you just come out and say that you are a liberal democrat and you do not want in office Republicans and especially conservative Christians. It's so obvious. I thought liberals want freedom of speech...I guess that freedom is limited and does not apply to conservative Christians.
"Why don't you just come out and say that you are a liberal democrat"
It says "liberal" right in the header. I don't think he's exactly ashamed of it.
"you do not want in office Republicans and especially conservative Christians. "
Well, they haven't had a very good track record in office lately.
"I thought liberals want freedom of speech"
Yes, and we're practicing our freedom of speech right here.
Are there any more elementary concepts you need cleared up?
Carter's the only one-term Democratic President for quite a few years back, is the thing, and the only one who actually got voted out of office in even longer. Republicans hear everyone else claiming Bush II is the worst President in American history, and they need to pretend that the Real Worst President is a Democrat, so Carter's really their only option. There's nothing else to it than that, at all.
Dr. Kill, you've lost your goddamned mind, and you've apparently spent the last six and a half years in a box on top of that. November 2008 will make or break American civilization, period. If we re-elect the authoritarians and religious nutjobs who run the country right now, America is OVER, if we aren't already. Just because you're not willing to pay attention doesn't mean it's not true.
Indeed. All possible ways of counting would have resulted in Gore winning, except the one that was actually used -- and that one is illegal in Florida. I'll try to dig up the ref later.
Lacking class, I can't see how...
Remember that Raygun had negotiated with Iran to delay the release of the hostages till he (the Gipper) had assume office.
I've never encountered the charge of antisemitism. Evidence, please.
The former didn't happen. The latter probably didn't happen either.
Scumbag antisemite James Earl Carters' incompetent handling of the Iranian situation in 1979 and 1980 has saddled his successors with the mess he left there.
Remember that Raygun had negotiated with Iran to delay the release of the hostages till he (the Gipper) had assume office.
Exactly, and not only that, it isn't as though Carter didn't make any effort. He can't be blamed for the Army he inherited. If Big Army had fucking left Special Operations alone after Vietnam, probably by the time they were needed, the D-Boys would have had some helicopters at their disposal that could have gotten the damn job done. Interesting that the creation of the 160th SOAR (Airborne), in part a direct reaction to the Iran incident, has resulted in exactly that (choppers that can get the job done by pilots trained to insert SOF) and now we seem to have little trouble getting around at night 20 feet off the sand.
You knew a anti-Fuckabee post would bring the fucktards.
... and Clinton is the only two-term Democratic President since Truman (unless you view Kennedy/Johnson as a single presidential entity).
It amuses me how conservatives cry and whine about the all-powerful "liberal bias" in media, and yet, by January of 2009, the GOP will have held the White House for 36 of 56 years since Eisenhower was elected at the dawn of the age of television dominance. That's a 64-36 split...
And it's involved a consistent decrease in the quality and ability of Republicans that get elected. Huckabee's just the newest depth. Don't count out Willard's ability to go lower.
And whoever mentioned the Iran hostage crisis, here's what Rudy's done with that.
The downward spiral continues.
Yeah. Blaming Carter for what's wrong with our relationship with Iran is... psychotic. I mean, it's not like Carter armed Iraq in its war against Iran, while trading arms for hostages with Iran at the same frikkin' time - and lying to the American people about it. Reagan gets credit for all of the above.
SRV,
Would those be the Founding Fathers who wrote this? "No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States" - (U.S. Constitution, 1787, Art. 6, Sec. 3).
Or include the one who wrote: "History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." - Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Baron von Humboldt, 1813.
Or ratified the treaty with the clause: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." - Treaty of Tripoli, which was signed during the term of George Washington and ratified by Congress during the term of John Adams.
Or knew: "The appropriation of funds of the United States for the use and support of religious societies, [is] contrary to the article of the Constitution which declares that 'Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment'." - James Madison, 1811.
Etc.
Okay, I'll bite by assuming that SRV isn't just having us on with a personal variant of PYGMIES & DWARVES.
The peculiar blend of ignorance, showy pietism and tribalism which goes under the modern rubric of "evangelical", at least as applied to American Protestantism, is largely a 19th-century creation. Consequently, the Founders could no more be "evangelical Christians" in the sense in which Christopaths use the word than they could have gotten drunk before opening the bottle.
SRV's Vocabulary Word of the Day is: anachronism. And, as my sainted mother always used to say, "look it up for yourself, you'll remember it better".
Re David Marjanović
See the attached link for evidence of slimeball James Earl Carters' antisemitism.
http://www.forward.com/blogs/campaign-confidential/emory-professor-resi…
Re Stevie_C
Associating me with an asshole like SRV is an insult of the first order. Mr. Stevie_C can stick his complaint where the sun don't shine.
Re SRV
The most important of the founding fathers were not believing Christians at all. These included Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, and Franklin. Mr. SRV is typical of the lying born-again pukeheads who get their information from liars like David Barton and J. P. Rushdoony.
Blaming Carter for Iran is bullshit.
And what evidence do you have for Carter being an anti-semite?
I guess wanting peace between Isreal and its neighbors makes him a real Nazi.
James Earl Carter, you get in the house this instant!
Re Stevie_C
Mr. Stevie_C should read the link attached to comment 134 which lays out the case. As for wanting a real peace between Israel and its' neighbors, Mr. James Earl Carters' idea of real peace is for the State of Israel to agree to go out of business. Obviously, that's also Mr. Stevie_Cs' idea of real peace.
I dearly hope Huckabee is the Republican candidate in 2008. A Giuliani or Romney loss allows conservatives to argue that they lost because they abandoned their core principles and ran a liberal flip-flopper. This is harder to do with Huckabee, not that they won't try.
I read it.
One Jew who worked at the Carter center has a problem with his book and all of sudden Carter is a nazi?
Get a grip.
Here's another take on shitface James Earl Carter. Now, of course, Mr. Stevie_C will bad mouth the author of this article since the Israel bashing radical left hates Alan Dershowitz (I would suggest reading Prof. Dershowitzs' review of Mr. Bill O'Reillys' latest book, which appeared in last Sundays' Washington Post Book Section, before labeling the former as a right winger).
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/1…
Shit, I got into pop-up hell during my search, and when you go elsewhere and back, what you write isn't normally saved in Internet Explorer...
Anyway. Here is an explanation of why Gore won in Florida in 2000, with links to the original sources.
Here is an explanation of the two Supreme Court rulings that stopped the vote counting and declared Captain Unelected the winner. Remember: it's not a coup if the Supreme Court does it.
Do you want information on 2004, too? You might like to start with how easy it is to steal an American election... (And that is called "First World". My ass.)
--------------
Well...
This is the closest that your source comes to mentioning evidence.
Your other source mentions that Carter is a personal friend of a quite moronic antisemite. Are you sure that Hanlon's Razor doesn't apply? As in: Carter is too naive to have found out what Sheikh Zayed has said? I also don't quite see what the connection to his presidency 20 years earlier is.
Your turn.
Wow SLC
An article that in no way showed that Carter was an antisemitie and an Op-Ed from an idiot.
I for one am convinced.
Re spurge
"and an Op-Ed from an idiot."
Mr. spurge doesn't have sufficient intelligence to carry Prof. Dershowitzs' briefcase. Both Mr. spurge and Mr. Stevie_C seem to be forgetting that the two sources mentioned are former friends and political supporters of c***sucker James Earl Carter who voted for him twice (as did I by the way). Clearly, f***face James Earl Carter prefers the friendship of Saudi oil princes who finance the Carter center and he is welcome to it.
Still waiting for SLC to offer up any actual proof of his claims (and if he wants to worship at the feet of Alan Dershowitz, torture apologist, he can go right ahead).
As for Huckabee: He's currently almost broke, but that may be changing. Haven't seen his $ numbers lately. He has this advantage over Rudy and Mitt, which is that the Fundies won't bolt if he heads up the ticket. He's also a vile man that stooped to free a rapist and killer, despite the pleas of the family members of the victims, just to piss off Bill Clinton -- and then lied about it when the guy raped and killed at least one other woman (the perp was about to go to trial for a second rape/murder when he died).
But Huckabee, if he's denied the nomination, will be denied it precisely because of the one decent thing he did as Arkansas governor, which was to raise taxes so the state didn't dry up and blow away.
Bigot? Fine! Religious nutball? OK! So slimy you'd free a guilty man just to piss off a political rival? Perfect!
Raise taxes, especially on the rich? RELEASE THE HOUNDS!
#82: The cartoon linked to in #30 is essentially correct in the beliefs of the Mormons, according to the things I've heard living in Utah for 25 years. I married a Mormon, but we have not been pressured to divorce, however.
Essentially, except in the many places where it twists the truth, adds erroneous details, or flat-out lies to try to make the LDS look bad. You may have been close to the LDS, but you obviously *weren't* LDS.
As one who WAS LDS for the first 3 decades of my life, I have to call that cartoon a slanderous pack of sneaky misrepresentations. You yourself admit that, contrary to what the video may state, you were never pressured to divorce. That's because it's NOT a doctrine of the church.
One easy example from the flick; that bit about 'god's two eldest sons, Jesus and his brother Lucifer'. I haven't read all LDS literature, but I've read the actual doctrine at least - Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, etc. Nowhere does it mention where Lucifer fell in the order of children. And if it did - what would it matter if Lucifer were 2nd or 463,252,837th? It certainly doesn't matter to the LDS!
Yes, according to LDS doctrine, Lucifer and Jesus were brothers - but then they believe that ALL of us are god's children. That makes ALL of us brothers and sisters - That's how the LDS address one another, in fact. 'Brother so-and-so', 'Sister thus-and-such'. Don't ALL christians believe that we're all god's children? Why is this even a point of contention??
The whole film is like that. Practically everything they described had at least one major lie or fabricated twist to it to make it seem strange or bad. I'm not going to go though it point by point, I'm sure you can find plenty of mormons who would be glad to though. I may no longer believe any of what they do, but I do know enough of what they believe to know a hatchet job when I see one.
I don't think it would be at all difficult to do a similar film about any other sect of Christianity, making them look just as bizarre and deluded by the time I was done. (They ARE all just as bizarre and deluded, but I'd prefer to let the truth speak for itself rather than make up straw men.)
Yes, the LDS have some bizarre doctrines and rituals, but they're not any stranger than any of the other weird doctrines that any of the other christian sects have come up with. 3 gods or one god, which is it? Transsubstantiation? God Cannibalism?! Being 'Saved by Grace', never again to worry about actually DOING what Jesus taught, but assured of their place in heaven? (I got that straight from the mouth of a Baptist minister!) Saint worship? Purity balls? Speaking in tongues? Snake handling? Paid clergy?
Face it. Every 'Christian' sect has taken some portion of the bible (Yes, the Mormons use the bible too!) to wild extremes. Rituals that surrounded you as you grew up will likely seem perfectly normal, and any rituals you didn't grow up with are likely to seem strange. I really don't see how the LDS teachings are any stranger or less 'christian' than those of the Protestants or Catholics. (Or Hindu, Jewish, or Muslim, for that matter, minus the 'christian' part.)
If you have to lie about the other team to try to make yours look more appealing, isn't that a whopping admission of FAIL right there?
I get so annoyed when I hear someone carping about mormons' 'magic underwear', 'baptising the dead', 'worshipping Joseph Smith', or that they're 'trying to work their way to heaven rather than just accepting Jesus' grace' (How the hell is that a BAD thing, anyway?? Do you have any idea how many times I've been told that it was 'too bad that Mormons were all going straight to hell because of that, though they were such nice, caring people otherwise'?!) None of those things are true.
Gah. I'm an atheist now and proud to be one, but I *hate* seeing lies printed about other people's beliefs. If you'll uncritically accept and disseminate lies about the other sects, what's to stop you from uncritically accepting all the lies about atheism? If you don't mind people lying about what the 'Mormons' believe, why should you mind if people lie about what atheists believe? (Or don't believe, as the case may be..)
Please. Stick to what you actually know! Don't pass along unsubstantiated rumors. Isn't that what the pro-science, pro-evidence, pro-reality side is supposed to be all about? Myself, I feel a lot better knowing I'm basing my denial of their beliefs on what they really believe and not someone else's straw-man interpretation of it.
My apologies for the long and barely-topical rant.
The Lesser of TWO Weevils!
Bill Dauphin:
2004 was enough for my cousin. After that election--specifically because of that election--she packed up her family and moved to NZ (not particularly easy for Americans to do from what I gathered; they seem to have standards there). I'm content in CT myself for the moment, but if Huckabee is elected (is that seriously possible?), I strongly suspect I will follow suit.
Weevils:
You put paid clergy next to snake handling in your list of crazy ideas? I grant you the world might be better off if their job didn't exist, but since it does, why is it crazy that they should be paid?
The details vary between denominations and congregations, but in broad terms, a Christian pastor does organizational work equivalent to the general manager of a decent-sized small business and creative work equivalent to a TV opinion "columnist" (i.e., writing and delivering a minimum of 1 and potentially 3 or 4 column-length talks each week). The relative handful of highly visible televangelist scumbag milliionaires notwithstanding, most pastors are hardworking people who get paid relatively very little (in some cases, little more than their room and board).
While I wish they'd chosen another line of work, I can't see why they shouldn't be compensated for the work they do.
Yeah, well, to be entirely truthful, there's an extra constraint on my ability to put my money where my mouth is: By the time of the election, my daughter will be deep into her first semester of college, hopefully at one of the several very fine schools she's applied to (Yale early action decisions are due today [crossed fingers]), and every last penny of my current income will be irrevocably committed. Therefore, I doubt I'll actually be able to emigrate, howevermuch I might want to. A Huckabee victory might well convince me that my country has abandoned me... but I doubt even that would be sufficient to convince me I should abandon my family.
Please Dog, don't let it come to that!
Just mentioning that this is a consistent thought. You are being saved rather than you saving yourself.
Why the f*** do people continue to run for government office who don't believe in government?
It's called "bleeding the beast" (if you're a Mormon) or "drowning it in the bathtub" (if you're Grover Norquist). The idea is to sabotage the parts of government that actually help people who aren't already filthy rich.
And why the triple-f*** do people keep voting for them?
Our corporate media, which was on the GOP's corporate-tax-cutting, regulation-slashing side even before Reagan rammed through the repeal of the Fairness Doctrine in 1987.
When government is run by people who don't believe in the basic idea of government, it gets run completely ineptly and completely corruptly. (As opposed to when it's run by people who think government might actually be a good idea if it's done right. Then it gets run somewhat less ineptly and corruptly.)
The push by what Atrios calls "Big Shitpile" to privatize Social Security is a case in point.
Social Security currently has overhead costs of less than one percent, and is being studied enviously by countries like the UK which bought into privatizing their pension plans and now have 14%-plus overhead costs (due to -- you guessed it! -- the fees charged by the private financial firms now handling the money), which cuts deeply into the money the pensioners get.
Plus, the whole idea that Social Security is going to run out of money unless it's privatized is bullshit. Assuming even less than average economic growth over the next few decades, Social Security never goes broke. Period.
But wait, there's more! The privatizers use super-gloomy economic predictions, equivalent to a Permanent Great Depression, to claim that Social Security will run out of money. However, when they're talking up the bodacious rates of return they claim for privatized pension funds, the rates they claim can happen only if the economy grows forever at 1998-peak-Clinton-boom levels forever.
So, not only do the privatizers argue for an impossible Permanent Recession/Depression.
And not only do they argue for an equally-impossible Permanent Boom.
They argue for both, at the same time.
Or as Al Franken likes to put it, "Republicans like to run by saying government is incompetent; then they get elected and prove it." The thing is, the proving it part is too often not the result of actual incompetence, but rather of contempt for government's proper mission.
For an amusing discussion of these issues... and in particular, the Social Security privatization smokescreen... see Franken's The Truth, With Jokes. I recommend the audiobook version; Franken's work is at its most penetrating in his own voice.
For an amusing discussion of these issues... and in particular, the Social Security privatization smokescreen... see Franken's The Truth, With Jokes. I recommend the audiobook version; Franken's work is at its most penetrating in his own voice
Ran into him several weeks ago. Literally. On the streets of Boston (same day as the World Series victory celebration). He was leaving a hotel, and I was walking to work, and by the time I realized who I'd just run into, he was in his car.
I keep missing opportunities for pictures. Almost got one with Fred Phelps, too, but he had stopped picketing our hotel by the time we went up to our rooms to get cameras.
Well, hot damn! But if you folks aren't making all kinds o' sense!
I gave his Senate campaign a very modest donation some time back, and thus got on their e-mail list. Periodically I get invited to "Cocktails with Al" fundraisers in NYC (i.e., only a couple hours from my home). So far, I haven't been able to attend, but if they keep having them, I'm determined to make it to one.
He's got to be more fun to drink with than Fred Phelps! ;^)
I think Mr. Huckabee is a good christian, but a good christian might not be good for the united states, since not everyone living here is christian.
He seems completely to moved by christ, and being so, ignores common sense. I'm not saying christ and common sense always are counter to each other, but when you read about Mr. Huckabee, it's clear that whole hearted belief in the bible can run counter to simple common sense.
#147 & 149 - My point exactly. (the order I put those concepts in was completely random, don't worry about what was next to what.)
Both of you apparently don't see those concepts as strange, whereas I certainly do, after being raised to believe otherwise.
Paid clergy? - The LDS manage to run all of their churches without a paid clergy. Once you start getting paid to push religion, corruption follows almost inevitably. If they can do it, why can't any of the others? Yes, to ME and likely to most of the LDS, a paid clergy is a strange thing, unsupported by scripture.
Being 'Saved by Grace'? - While the LDS AGREE that people are saved by the grace of Christ, they also expect there to be some effort involved in *following* His example and teachings. How else could you honestly say that you've accepted Him?
The line in the bible that I always see trumpeted by the born-agains about how we are all 'saved by grace' is immediately followed by a line that says that we may be saved by grace, but we are then JUDGED by our works. Like the average creationist quote-miner, that line is constantly omitted by the fundies - and then they teach that sects like the LDS, who keep the whole passage in mind and not just the desired line - are going straight to hell for it!
The idea that one can 'accept His Grace' in some fashion and then go shoot someone, and STILL be assured of salvation is ludicrous to me. It may make perfect sense to those raised in or around that sect. To me, this is how people wind up diving planes into buildings.
The point I was making, and which I feel has only been strengthened by your comments, is that the LDS are no stranger, more cultish, deluded, or less 'christian' than any of the other sects, it's all a matter of perspective. "One man's religion is another man's belly-laugh." (Heinlein I believe)
They are ALL ludicrous and deluded, but I'd far rather base my decision on their own documented claims and not a straw-man built by their detractors. Religion, ALL of it, fails on its own merits. We're no better than the creationists if we try to make our points the same way they do. We're supposed to be the ones who rely on documented evidence, not rumors and out-of-context strawmen.
That's the whole of my point. I just can't manage to make it in less than three pages of text. ^_^;
The Lesser of TWO Weevils!
J Myers: "if Huckabee is elected (is that seriously possible?)"
If Huckabee is nominated the GOP will surely lose the general. And Republicans know it.
'Huckacide,' Rich Lowry, National Review 12/1/4/07:
"The ghost of Howard Dean haunts the pundit class. ... After many false prophecies, Dean circa 2008 has finally arrived. He is former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee. ... (L)ike Dean, his nomination would represent an act of suicide by his party. ...
Social conservatism has to be part of the Republican message, but it can't be the message in its entirety. ...
Huckabee has declared that he doesn't believe in evolution. Even if there are many people in America who agree with him, his position would play into the image of Republicans as the anti-science party. This would tend to push away independents and upper-income Republicans. ...
Democrats have to be looking at Huckabee the way Republicans once regarded Dean -- as a shiny Christmas present that is too good to be true."
So, how exactly did Mike Huckabee's son David kill that dog, back in the day when he was a Boy Scout?
Like Jesus would have, or some other way?
truth machine:
Chavez is still way more authoritarian than I personally am comfortable with.
Non sequitur. Most heads of state are way more authoritarian than I personally am comfortable with; big deal. But Chavez's purported authoritarianism has been grossly exaggerated in the U.S. media and culture, with even Jay Leno referring to "dictator Hugo Chavez" in his jokes.
Scumbag antisemite James Earl Carter
The person who wrote that is clearly a nutjob.
SLC is a nut job.
Yes indeedy. Carter isn't even anti-Zionist (which is what nutjobs like SLC mean when they call him anti-semitic).
Hey PZ,
Why don't you just come out and say that you are a liberal democrat and you do not want in office Republicans and especially conservative Christians.
Uh, he has, repeatedly.
It's so obvious.
Gee, ya think?
I thought liberals want freedom of speech...I guess that freedom is limited and does not apply to conservative Christians.
Uh, not wanting Republicans and conservative Christians to run the country doesn't have anything to do with opposing freedom of speech. One of the reasons PZ and others don't you running the country is that you're so fucking stupid. (Of course, you aren't the only ones; there are always folks like SLC).
Democrats have to be looking at Huckabee the way Republicans once regarded Dean -- as a shiny Christmas present that is too good to be true.
The Republicans only pretended that anti-war centrist Dean was their dream -- they really wanted Kerry, and got him.
ROTFL!
My night is saved. :-)
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Well, Lincoln's faith was a little more complex than Huckabee's or for that matter yours.
-- cited in chapter 14 of part 5 of Six Historic Americans by John Ramsburg
-- cited in What Great Men Think Of Religion by Ira Cardiff
-- in a letter to Judge J.S. Wakefield, after the death of Willie Lincoln
-- Lincoln's wife, Mary Todd Lincoln, in Toward The Mystery
-- this last one quoted in Henry O. Dormann, compiler, The Speaker's Book of Quotations, New York: Ballantine Books, 1987, p. 127
...and finally:
Do you think PZ made all these quotes up?
Looks like Lincoln was, at least privately, a deist (which makes it very easy for your source to paint him as a deeply religious man -- he probably was one).
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We also wouldn't be in there if the ballots in Florida had been counted in a legal way...
Hmmm. So Ross Nixon's comment, linking to a piece that tried to make a Huckabee out of Lincoln, was deleted. (It was number 58.) Still, our favorite troll isn't in the Dungeon, nor even On Notice. ~:-|
Indeed. All possible ways of counting would have resulted in Gore winning, except the one that was actually used -- and that one is illegal in Florida. I'll try to dig up the ref later.
Lacking class, I can't see how...
Remember that Raygun had negotiated with Iran to delay the release of the hostages till he (the Gipper) had assume office.
I've never encountered the charge of antisemitism. Evidence, please.
The former didn't happen. The latter probably didn't happen either.
Shit, I got into pop-up hell during my search, and when you go elsewhere and back, what you write isn't normally saved in Internet Explorer...
Anyway. Here is an explanation of why Gore won in Florida in 2000, with links to the original sources.
Here is an explanation of the two Supreme Court rulings that stopped the vote counting and declared Captain Unelected the winner. Remember: it's not a coup if the Supreme Court does it.
Do you want information on 2004, too? You might like to start with how easy it is to steal an American election... (And that is called "First World". My ass.)
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Well...
This is the closest that your source comes to mentioning evidence.
Your other source mentions that Carter is a personal friend of a quite moronic antisemite. Are you sure that Hanlon's Razor doesn't apply? As in: Carter is too naive to have found out what Sheikh Zayed has said? I also don't quite see what the connection to his presidency 20 years earlier is.
Your turn.