This is probably a serious site. Probably. It could be satire, but the line between satire and Christianity is razor thin. Read Christian dating tips, and judge for yourself.
First rule of Christian dating: it's pretty much like going to church. Boring, chaste, and offering nothing but faint hopes. No intimacy is allowed, not even a kiss.
Choose to not kiss - At least until you are engaged to be married. Okay, this can be extremely difficult, but if you can follow this one dating tip then most of the others will happen naturally. Even kissing once you are engaged can be very dangerous. It's better to not kiss at all until your wedding day! Before you laugh and click to another page with thoughts that we must be insane, consider these points on kissing.
There are only two other dating tips: go on group dates, and treat each other with respect. The last one is fine (although their advice there is to ask yourself "what would Jesus do?", which is simply another lust-killer.) Basically, they're saying the way to court someone for a sexual relationship is to avoid all physical contact with the person.
That wedding day is going to be some fun, isn't it? They won't know how to kiss, they won't know how to have sex, and they're going to expect paradise when all they're going to get is clumsy fumbling and awkward embarrassment.
But why, you might ask, should Christians avoid kissing?
A kiss begins to sexually stimulate a man instantly.
Well, yes. That's the point, and it's a good thing. Notice the subtle bias, though: women are passive, there's no consideration about whether maybe she could also be sexually aroused. Maybe that's saying something about Christian men.
If you aren't kissing then you won't become tempted to take things to a more intimate level. You'll be protecting yourself and the purity of your date.
Protecting yourself from intimacy … how revealing. But it gets funnier:
If a Christian man is kissing his date and it gives him an erection (often just the possibility of a kiss can do this), is God or his date being honored?
God cares about the vasocongestive state of your pelvic floor! I don't recall anything in the Bible that says anything about god's preferences for your subtle physiological condition.
As for the date…yeah, baby, you're being honored.
Is this healthy for the man to get sexually aroused time after time without sexual release? When men become sexually aroused a large amount of blood flows to the genitals. If ejaculation does not occur; the build up of blood can become painful. That just can't be a good thing for anyone! Ouch! :O)
Come on, blue balls? That's the oldest excuse in the book. Yes, arousal can be painful if there is no release, but it does no harm. This is usually used as an excuse for release, not a rationalization for fearing even to begin to find some sexual interest in your partner.
A kiss will surely break down your barriers and leave you in a position that could ultimately devastate your relationship with your date and separate you from a close walk with God. Self-control seems to be the better option.
What's wrong with breaking down barriers between two people? Isn't that the whole point of dating? And if a mere kiss will devastate a relationship and alienate you from god, what about all that sex after the wedding day? If god gets pissed off at skin contact between two people, what magic happens at a wedding ceremony to suddenly change his opinion? He's a fickle weirdo, that god.
Just think how magical that first kiss will be if it is saved for your wedding day!
If that's true, think how magical it would be to kiss someone every day!
Look, it's very simple: intimacy, kissing, and sex are either fun and rewarding and important element of a relationship, or they aren't. It doesn't change because some sanctimonious old gomer in funny clothes flips a switch on your wedding day. The choice to pursue a physical relationship is a choice to be made by two people, and insisting that the mediation of a third (especially if it's some celibate geezer, or ignorant virgin like the author of that Christian dating article) does not help — it's just creepy.
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I wonder how this praying together is supposed to work if a christian goes on a date with ...say a budhist, or a muslim, or darwin forbid, an atheist. That might be just a touch awkward. These christians are a bunch of sad, sexually repressed, pathetic individuals.
First rule of Christian dating: it's pretty much like going to church. Boring, chaste, and offering nothing but faint hopes.
Church is less fun since the priests stopped playing "hide the crozier" with the flock, huh?
This made me laugh out loud.
This instantly reminded me of this old Onion article.
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39100
That's par for the course with Christians, and with abstinence-only education. Women never want sex - it's all the man being pushy, begging or pressuring her, and she does it because she goes along with it for purely emotional reasons. Naturally women don't enjoy sex, you pervert.
Anyway, this comment will probably be marked as spam since I'm including a link, but I just have to throw this in:
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39100
From the article: You can never go wrong with prayer.
Well, unless it prevents you from doing something that might actually help.
Looks like a 'genuine' site to me. But like so many things these days, so absurd as to be difficult to distinguish from satire.
Kudos to the author! He has convinced me to hold back praying to God until the very instant before my death.
Think how magical that first prayer will be!
What would Jesus do? I think it involves getting her to annoint you with oils and wash your feet, but I'm not sure which comes first.
Dammit, beaten by less than a minute on the Onion article.
"yeah, baby, you're being honored."
This message brought to you by Big Pimp PZ!
Kissing, hell! I want to know what they're planning on doing about this disgusting habit of shaking of hands when a couple first meets. It's the devil's grip, I tells ya. One quick pump and you're headed down that slippery slope to hell.
Come on, kids, keep a minimum of 2 arm's length apart UNTIL you're married. Think how good that first handshake will be on your wedding night.
Its what Jesus would do.
Growing up Catholic, no one prepared me for wanting to do all those nasty things. I assumed there must be something wrong with me. Girls were supposed to be the brakes stopping the boys' passion.
The First Silliest Notion Ever Devised: That the act of copulation is somehow "wrong," without the imprimatur of some Deity or other.
Are these people trying to raise ANOTHER generation of sexual neurotics?
Forget about whether jebus cares what you do with your tongue. This is a way to encourage young people to marry in the church. Likewise, don't teach kids about condoms and they are likely to get knocked up and be forced to 'do the honorable thing.'
Coming from rural Kansas, I knew more than one couple who got married very young so god wouldn't cry when they did the nasty. This of course doesn't lead to the happiest or most psychologically stable marriages (witness divorce rates among fundies), but it does make a lot of little Christian babies.
Similarly, but more fun, the Amish tradition of Rumpspringa, which looks like an Amish anomaly of permissiveness subtly encourages kids to stay in the church. They are thrown into the 'English' world at 16 with no education on sex and told they can do whatever they want. Naturally lots of them end up in a family way and have to return to the church community where they have a support network.
HA! Two dating tips are "pray" and "pray in groups". That is hilarious. You have to be kidding me.
What's the point of brushing you're teeth if you're not going to kiss?
Or cleaning your vehicle if you're not going to use the back seat?
I take offence when I kiss a guy and he *doesn't* get an erection. It is a matter of personal pride, you see.
I noticed the article also mentioned that even praying together was dangerous as it leads to intimacy. Hey, I would have been more religious if I'd have known that prayer=sex! Dammit.
"I certainly hope the Lord will now bless us with a child after this wonderful night," Linda said. "If not, we may be forced to repeat this beautiful experience."
Classic.
Wanderer @ #14 said:
"Are these people trying to raise ANOTHER generation of sexual neurotics?"
This is a feature, not a bug.
Also, wanted to point out dcwp's excellent, if subtle, pun:
"witness divorce rates among fundies"
Was that intentional? If so, well done :)
Dammit, Gingerbaker! You made me spew coffee all over my new laptop. :-(
LOL, I read this as "goon group dates".
I used to work with a guy that was so devoutly religious (need you ask who he voted for?) that he did exactly as these tips suggest, and didn't kiss his wife until their wedding day. I'm guessing he's one of about a thousand human beings that ever did things this way. Of course, there's always the possibility he was keeping up appearances...
This isn't new. I know several people who didn't kiss before marriage or whose kids aren't kissing. In college I went on one date with a Seventh Day Adventist chick who wouldn't hold hands before marriage. One date.
Hey, if there is too much buildup due to all that arousal, there are always wet dreams for release. I mean, God gave them to boys for a reason, right?
When I was in college, I did a summer research stint with a group of others. My roommate, part of the program, was a fundy whack-job from a bible school in Oklahoma. I mean really whacked - he made no pretense. For example, for him, evolution/creation was not about science, but about religion. He would never support ID, even, because all that mattered was God's word of the bible (and evolution was "The Big Lie" that Paul (maybe John in the Apocalypse) predicted would be foisted upon mankind by Satan. Totally whacked. However, he was also engaged. Sort of scary, I thought.
OK, so they guy kept a journal. Wondering what seedy ideas were lurking behind the veil, I, of course, had to read it when he was out :) Sorry, nothing seedy, just lots of "I had a good talk with God today." But I did read about when he got engaged. He was pretty excited, but related the story. I don't remember all the details, but it was something like, "I asked her to marry me, and she said yes. Then I asked if I could kiss her, and she said yes. So I kissed her...for the first time."
Hey, _I_ thought it was funny. So did all the other folks that were in our group that I told.
OK, I'm not real proud that I read his journal, but then again, I don't feel too guilty about it. The guy was a putz.
I have talked to the folks who ran the program, and they said they never realized he was such a fundy whacko. Had they done so, they of course never would have accepted him in a scientific research program. He had no future in science.
Just to make this longer, another great incident. As part of our program, we had weekly seminars from scientists in the department. One guy gave a talk about evolution, and, in particular, how evolution is a manifestation of the 2nd law, being a manner for distributing energy throughout the system. Of course, that didn't go over well. So this fundy guy writes him a letter telling him that he is going to hell, etc. The guy write back and rips the kid a new one, albeit eloquently, basically saying, "We're scientists, and we go where the evidence leads." Major smack down. If it were me, I would have just laughed at him (we did that a lot, anyway).
I wouldn't ask what Jesus would do. Like most cult leaders, I suspect Jesus was in it for the chicks. Jesus would do it for sure.
I have posted this remembrance on a few blogs. January 9th is the 100th anniversary of Simone de Beauvoir.
For the newer generations, she wrote probably the first contemporary feminist manifesto, "The Second Sex", way back in 1949.
I doubt that many jesus freaks have read it. If they would, they would be less clueless.
Marcus @2:
Church is less fun since the priests stopped playing "hide the crozier"
They've stopped?
"you can pound my tom tom"
http://www.adultswim.com/video/index.html
" for your subtle physiological condition."
Hey, you don't have to rub it in that it's a subtle condition. I tried the pumps, they didn't work...
sorry, I am such a spas.
http://www.adultswim.com/video/?episodeID=8a25c39215fa78a40115fc742fe00…
Nice one but you should wait until after death. Then it would be even more magical (ie impossible without god-bothering magic).
And what would DJ Jesus do? Here's the answer:
http://www.adultswim.com/video/?episodeID=8a25c39215d7c8da0115d85ef0db0…
If you doubt that this site is real, then check the Christian Joke of the Day. Ugh... totally devoid of humor. This is no parody.
Blue balls? Good one. The UK version is Lover's balls. Big gregs in northern vernacular.
Oh to be able to hack that site and do a little creative editing.
When you pray with someone of the opposite sex that you care about you begin to build a level of intimacy that can often lead to trouble.
Priceless ... just priceless.
There's another line that has promise ...
Include another couple
Remember, even Jesus got nailed three times without being married!
Re comment 1 - no dating outside the church. It's a rule - "be ye not unequally yoked together" In a really open church, they may mean "don't date someone who's not Christian," but in many denominations they are even more restrictive and mean you shouldn't date someone who is a different flavor of Christianity - after all, the other person might want to bring up the kids in that other religion, which'll doom them to h*ll.
Re comment 24 - Heh! I was Seventh Day Adventist, and got dumped-not-that-we-were-dating by a Mormon guy who freaked out after the fact about us holding hands while walking somewhere. He started avoiding me, so I went to hunt him down to tell him he really didn't have to hide - he said he was afraid of where the whole hand-holding thing might lead . . . .
But I once had an SDA pastor who felt that it was appropriate to tell 5th and 6th graders (in a religion class) that he and his wife always prayed for guidance before having sex. Even in 5th grade, my immediate reaction was "you *still* haven't figured out how to do it?" (By the way, just to up the ick factor, his daughter was in that class.)
I don't know how many of you grew up free of religion madness but in my case I am frequently reminded how deeply I regret all those years gone, feeling ashamed, asking for forgiveness to a god and repressing myself just for a damn delusion.
I grew up as a christian, pastors in my family, etc. That text isn't really that surprising for me, never read something like that but it is frequently said, directly or indirectly.
One of the things that amazes me is how really, really deeply the indoctrination goes into our brain. I am 36 and now for several years an atheist not because anyone 'preached' me about it but just as result of a natural process of thinking. Well, sometimes even now for example, I have to fight with myself about thoughts of self humiliation, feeling bad if pride surfaces, etc.
It takes effort to get freedom back, that is one of the reasons I am really concern about children receiving the religions dogmas. That is exactly why I liked The Golden Compass, not because of its qualities as a film but as a starting point, a starting point for asking about organizations telling other people what to think, how to act, etc.
The movie worked for my daughter (5), she began asking me about the Magisterium, and that allows a conversation where they can learn, where they can, by themselves build their own intellectual weapons to overcome the religion impositions and 'brain washing', which at least in our continent a vast majority will suffer.
(Sorry for any English error, not my language)
Damn, that whole site is just one big FSTDT wet dream.
Check out the parenting tips, over 1/2 of them involve counseling your child (including teens) on how to avoid interacting with members of the opposite sex in anything other than a completely platonic way.
Damn...that site's a great source for...well, see for yourself:
http://www.christian-life-advisor.com/bibleman-video-game-adventure.html
It fits pretty well with what I'm familiar with, so if it's satire it's so close to the edge it's pretty much over it.
I also had a friend who didn't kiss his girlfriend until the wedding day, and they dated for a couple of years before they got married. In fact, he had never kissed anyone before. The look on his face after the fact was priceless.
Back when I was in high school, my fundie aunt gave us a subscription to "The Sword of the Lord", a charming little fire and brimstone newspaper. I'd read it just to see what these folks had to say.
They had one whole issue on dating. No kissing, no hand holding, no dancing. Even roller skating was iffy because it was so much like dancing. Their dating solution -- go to the mall and witness for god.
dcwp @15,
I'm no expert on these things, but I think Rumspringa of the sort you describe -- sending Amish adolescents out into "the world" to experience a bit of the ungodly life before they commit themselves to horse-drawn buggies -- is something of an urban (or perhaps rural) legend. My impression is that, for most of the Amish, it's a much simpler matter of just not taking youthful "transgressions" very seriously, on the grounds that teenagers will be teeenagers and only a fool would think he could successfully rein them in. (If true, that's a surprisingly humane attitude for an otherwise extraordinarily conservative sect.)
Bwahaha...
What we're suggesting is that you don't pray together alone as a couple too early in your relationship. Prayer is so very important in any relationship so please don't misunderstand this point. When you pray with someone of the opposite sex that you care about you begin to build a level of intimacy that can often lead to trouble.
Yeah, because you might make prayer-babies. And we all know where that leads!
I've just thought of a slogan (with apologies to Madalyn Murray-O'Hair): "Prayer is the new petting!"
Not that the women enjoy that at all:
A kiss begins to sexually stimulate a man instantly... If a Christian man is kissing his date and it gives him an erection (often just the possibility of a kiss can do this), is God or his date being honored?... Is this healthy for the man to get sexually aroused time after time without sexual release?
Just like Islam--no thought of the woman's enjoyment.
Hilarious!
I wholly support this no-kissing-before-marriage mentality, thanks to a confession of sorts from one of my friends from high-school after she'd gotten married. She had been raised in church, and taught that kissing before being engaged or engaging in intercourse before marriage was bad. She simply took the non-forbidden path of performing blow-jobs on her boyfriends (one of which I, sadly, was not). Anything that causes this behavior is a sentiment I endorse.
"Include another couple - You will find that physical issues are much less distracting if you plan most of your ... situations to include other couples. ...."
Did anyone read this the way I did?I am so going to hell....
and @39
I grew up in an atheistic house and have memories of my mum telling me two things, "There's nothing like a good f**k." At the time I thought she was talking about cursing, as I got older I saw the other meaning of that statement. The other thing she used to say was, "How do you know the man is any good unless you try him out first?". I was completely grossed out by this (as 14yo's often are by their parents) but now see the wisdom of her words!
Naturally our godless household was full of... erm... love, discipline and parents who are deeply devoted to one another. Such a bad example for the kids.
WWJD? Mary Magdalene. Duh.
I had a preacher friend (back when I was not godless) who confided to me that he and his wife always had awesome sex (his wording) after prayer. That do not pray together without others makes good sense if you are trying to avoid having sex.
Just the POSSIBILITY of a kiss can lead to an erection INSTANTLY? Ah, to be young again!
maxi @ 49,
reminds me of the granddad from Little Miss Sunshine. Sound advice.
I looked uncannily like Little Miss Sunshine too. My best friend watched the film and thought of me instantly. Pudgy, over-sized glasses, plaits... Thank you puberty!
Who
Would
Jesus
Do
but could you dance?
True Bob: If you've ever had the pleasure of watching a child's dance recital you will know there is always a chubby, tutu-clad child. That was me. Alas my mother is passionately against beauty pageants so I never got to test out my skills!
I've also heard these arguments presented in context where they were most certainly not intended as a joke, and where these claims would actually be considered a bit liberal. I attended a small religious school for my undergraduate education, and I remember a class in which the psychology professor, describing the evils of temptation, discussed how holding hands with his wife could give him an erection. Fortunately that wasn't on the test.
I remember seeing a study a few years ago (maybe this one: http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html ) which discussed the inverse relationship between religiosity and teen pregnancy. One problem I think is that to Christian teens, using any kind of birth control is equivalent to "planning to sin." (For those who weren't raised Christian, I should clarify that this is a Bad Thing.) Pair that with the fact that two mutually attracted teens, left alone, will sooner or later remove their clothing, and the result follows like clockwork.
Dating? How quaint.
Yes, arousal can be painful if there is no release, but it does no harm. This is usually used as an excuse for release,
When I was a youngster and not yet ready to, er, provide my date with release or obtain same from him, we would occasionally say to each other, "Excuse me, got to go to the bathroom" and obtain release without risking pregnancy or taking things somewhere neither of us was comfortable with yet. What's wrong with these Christian types that they can't do the same? Do Christians not believe in indoor plumbing or something?
LOL! For some reason I'm just reminded of the old joke: "Can we have sex in bed?",
"Certainly",
"In the kitchen?",
"Of course - it is blessed by the Lord"",
"Standing up?",
"Absolutely not!",
"Why!!",
"It might lead to dancing."
45: Islam has, in fact, a requirement that men consider the pleasure of their wives; the fact that individuals do not always follow that dictat is another thing entirely.
Three things are counted as inadequacies in a man. Firstly, meeting someone he would like to get to know, and taking leave of him before learning his name and his family. Secondly, rebuffing the generosity that another shows to him. And thirdly, going to his wife and having intercourse with her before talking to her and gaining her intimacy, satisfying his need from her before she has satisfied her need from him. (Daylami)
Don't mistake the practices for the tenets. Fundies of any sort tend to phenomenally repressed.
I've no doubt whatsoever that this isn't a satire - try reading some of the fundie sites, especially those of the home-schooling sort. You'd think Satan was on every street corner trying to get the young to - dare I say it? - kiss!
I remember when the sister of a friend of mine got pregnant at 12, much to her confusion - she had been told that kissing caused babies and she'd never kissed the guy...
Is it bad that my mind went some where totaly unholy when they said go on group "dates"?
@Hypatia #54:
Your comment gives a whole new meaning to "What Would Jesus Do." Apple Pie? The neighbor's goat? A hole in the wall? Oh, yeah..the possibilities are endless.
"What would Jesus do"?
Tell the guy to sleep with her. Then when the guys make the girl pregnant. When she has the baby kill the baby in punishment for breaking God's law by doing what God told him to do. That Biblical reasoning.
http://www.thebricktestament.com/king_david/god_kills_70000_israelites/…
Hell, the hole in his hands might add some interesting possibilities.
I actually think they've got good points, but they don't go far enough - we should also tell people about the evils of kissing or (gasp!) sex after marriage. That depravity has to stop! :)
I find it very hard to take seriously any Christian dating tips that don't describe the use of dental dams in rimming. That's just good sense.
Mrs Tilton @44 wrote: "...but I think Rumspringa of the sort you describe[...] is something of an urban (or perhaps rural) legend."
It's real. Check out the 2002 documentary "Devil's Playground." Good writeup about this on NPR's website.
Because it would be enjoyable.
According to Reverend Lovejoy, Christians are, technically speaking, not allowed to use toilets.
I stopped reading at tip #4 -- "Wear deodorant"
apparently dating is training for learning how to beg.
oh wait christians already know how to do that. beg for forgiveness for being born, beg for forgiveness for not being perfect, the next step is to learn how to beg for sex.
Q. Why do girls like Jesus so much?
A. *spreads out arms* He was hung like this!
*ba-dum-CHING!*
Ha! Now that I've actually gotten around to reading it - I notice that it doesn't appear to explicitly condemn sex. I can only presume, then, that it is perfectly permissible to have sex - even in groups, the more the merrier - so long as there's no kissing, and you remember to pray first, and you don't pray together.
(Ironically, I also noticed one of their Google-Ads was "Dating after Divorce". Guess Google knows they're setting their kids up for a fall, too.)
"what would Jesus do"
Umm.. Hang out with hookers?
-jcr
On Rumspringa, there is some independent confirmation on its reality:
Amish Outlaws
advice there is to ask yourself "what would Jesus do?
We don't have to ask ourselves, we know what Jesus is reported to have done. He hung around with a bunch of men and maybe a female prostitute or two.
/sarcasm
How do people stay sane after such a bizarre upbringing? Or do they?
A lot of the kids must just ignore it. The teen pregnancy rate in fundie states is noticeably above the national average.
I attended a small religious school for my undergraduate education, and I remember a class in which the psychology professor, describing the evils of temptation, discussed how holding hands with his wife could give him an erection.
This illustrates why it's so absurd to think that you can protect people from "temptation" by avoiding things that trigger arousal. The sexual drive doesn't go away, so you merely end up changing what it takes to trigger it.
p.s. Is it weird that I find this whole discussion kind of erotic? Sheesh, being raised on that religious repression crap has sure given me some bizarre fetishes....
Sheesh, being raised on that religious repression crap has sure given me some bizarre fetishes....
And the rest of us are quite envious of you for it. If there's one good thing about repression, it's that it makes one more sensitive.
I suspect it also helps with art. Basically, you can't break rules like the second law of thermodynamics in art, so its best to have someone else making up arbitrary rules for you to break to show creativity.
I'M SHOCKED AND OFFENDED!!!
When I went on the xtian site, I was very surprised to see a sponsored ad for a UK dating service (probably country-targetted advertising from an ad agency). The graphic for the ad shows a semi-naked woman laying against the chest of her male lover. On clicking the ad it takes me to the dating site - the main graphic showing (not surprisingly) two people kissing.
I'll bet they have no idea that UK readers are being served this ad. LOL!!
Why is the Christian God such a complete fuckup. I mean, if you buy their bullshit, he created us, but with a nature completely opposite to what he wants. He created us with desires opposite what our actions should be? Is God a retard or a fucking asshole?
"How do people stay sane after such a bizarre upbringing? Or do they?"
They cope, but often in strange ways. I attended a well-known Christian college that had strict rules governing dating. The dean of students had some very specific suggestions at freshman orientation concerning how to deal with sexual desires: (1) sublimate them through exercise, (2) if need be, masturbate! But in the end, some students did what came naturally, and it did involve more than handholding and kissing.
However the testosterone-addled brain of the 18-20 year male could lead to some bizarre behavior. Guys exercising in the nude in the floor lounge, a group "underwear tear," --all of which seemed a little odd given the likelihood that the majority had a strong heterosexual orientation (and there were gay students on campus, not that the institution knew it). I also think it contributed to other weird non-sexual behavior like mixing AND heating cleaning chemicals in the floor kitchenette--nearly requiring the evacuation of the building due to toxic fumes. Or they could act like turbo-charged bowerbirds when there was an open house when women could visit (chaperoned by RAs) the men's dorm--I saw construction projects rivaling the Rose Bowl floats!
In the end, there was probably no lasting damage. I know a lot of decent people who have been happily married for years--and some of them have been divorced and remarried just like everyone else. Humans are adaptable in that they can find ways to be cope and even be happy (think, e.g., about arranged marriages) in the face of cultural dictates.
There once was a sweet sixteen fundi
Who'd go on group dates every Sunday,
But like a big dope
She gave in to the grope
And prayed she weren't pregnant each Monday.
Just the POSSIBILITY of a kiss can lead to an erection INSTANTLY?
Hell, at that age I think the only requirement is a strong breeze.
These people are, in fact, insane.
They also say, a bit further down the page that "it is great to be married to your best friend". I'm going to call Steve right now and propose. I wonder if it'll matter that we both have penises.
Incidentally, some of their dating tips (dress nicely, comb your hair, brush your teeth...) are things that some people really need to consider.
"If a Christian man is kissing his date and it gives him an erection (often just the possibility of a kiss can do this), is God or his date being honored?"
Haven't these folks ever heard of the "Gallant reflex"?
Most women I know consider an erection to be the highest compliment a man can offer.
Seriously, if we can just get these fundies to admit that sex is dirty ANYTIME, including after marriage, we can be rid of them in just a few short years. IIRC, there was a radical ofshoot of the Quakers, known as the Shakers. These folks believed in ONLY immacualte conception, and that sex was inherently sinful.
Haven't seen any Shakers lately, have you??
It's not supposed to work. A Christian thinking of dating a non-Christian might as well just ask God for a one-way ticket to Hell and be done with it. For that matter, I suspect that for the type of Christian this advice is addressed to, dating a Catholic is out of bounds.
ugg... these people make my teeth hurt. They just have to suck EVERY LAST BIT of joy out of life to feel worth something don't they.
If good Christians are supposed to avoid leading their dates into temptation, I would think that shabby, ill-fitting clothes, messy hair, and bad breath would go a long way toward that. Why are daters supposed to try and look attractive? Isn't that sending mixed signals?
Most women you know don't seem to know men very well, since most men I know can get aroused at practically anything in a skirt.
Sadly, the website PZ refers to here is not satire (although it wouldn't take much to turn it into one. I think it's quite self-satirizing.)
This Landover article, however, is satire.
OK, I did my glib jokey little "dental dam/rimming" riff, but I have a real answer to the questions some have been posing, and my joke was only partly a joke. As a former fundamentalist Christian, I can tell you exactly what this sort of advice does to young people: it turns them into Clintonesque little Pharisees. In most cases, the biological urges will out, one way or the other. A recent Savage Love column pointed out that the emphasis on "abstinence only" sex ed has helped promote anal sex among teens. The technique is simple, and oh-so-human: define sex as vaginal, pound ass (or have ass pounded), and claim ongoing virginity. Or if, say, masturbation is pronounced off-limits, well, you don't spank then. Is it your fault that sometimes when you're just washing really thoroughly, things happen beyond your control? The truth--about everything, including oneself--is the first, largest, and most lamantable casualty of fundamentalism. It's easy (and as Homer would add, fun) to make fun of kids who would take any of this seriously, but keep in mind that they are very much victims of adults who, not satisfied with threatening hell in the life to come, set up little outposts of hell in the here and now.
Being raised in a Christian environment (and being given, reading, and ascribing to "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"... gawd, what an awful book I see that to be now), it was a huge surprise for me when a girl actually wanted me to grope her. What? Girls like that? But I thought they only did sexual things because they had to in order to get guys to love them? At least that's what they taught me in my abstinence only class in 5th grade...
Hey folks; medium/long-time reader, first-time poster [and fellow godless liberal]. Alas, my first post is going to be a completely anal nit-pick [ew, that sounds really gross.]
Anyway, at Seargenat Zimm, #87:
The Immaculate Conception does NOT refer to the sexless conception of Jesus or anyone else. It actually refers to the notion that Mary herself was conceived without original sin to be an appropriate vessel for god's bastard son. But she was indeed the result of fucking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_conception
Speaking of virgins, now that I've popped my posting cherry here, perhaps y'all see more of me. If not, keep up the good work folks! Only blog I read!
"If a Christian man is kissing his date and it gives him an erection (often just the possibility of a kiss can do this), is God or his date being honored?"
Is this a multiple choice question?
Yes?
Then the answer is (B) the date is the one being honored. God never gave me a woody.
What is this 'dating' of which you speak?
In England (at least in my day) you hung out with a bunch of people and somehow ended up having sex with one of them, after which you were an 'item'.
ImmortalityLTD -- you owe me a new keyboard. This one got coffee snorted all over it.
"These christians are a bunch of sad, sexually repressed, pathetic individuals."
This may be true in many cases--but a lack of religious upbringing or orientation does not ncessarily result in ethical or adaptive behavior in the sexual realm.
Sergeant Zim, are you by any chance an Irken Invader?
Greg @92,
A recent Savage Love column pointed out that the emphasis on "abstinence only" sex ed has helped promote anal sex among teens.
Interesting. This has long been the case in a number of Mediterranean cultures, whether Roman Catholic or Muslim, that put a high premium on (technical) virginity at marriage. I wonder do the American fundamentalists know they're unwittingly aping a custom of papists and islamofascists (and which of those two would upset them more).
I knew a woman once who graduated from one of those fundamentalist Xian colleges, a large, well known and academically not a total diploma mill one. A renegade.
One of their main purposes is to provide a place for members of the church to meet and get married to each other. In other words, endogamy. It worked a lot of the time but by senior year, there were always a bunch left single for one reason or another.
FWIW, she (one of the leftovers) said by senior year, just about all the single girls were ready to explode with sexual frustration. Except for the ones that said to hell with it and went berserk.
Somehow, this just doesn't seem to be a recipe for either happiness or mental health.
Ergo, following the evidence leads to hell.
No wonder they're trying to protect us from materialism!
Why aren't the hyperchristians trying to shut down all those police investigation shows on the teevee?
I only had 3 inviolable rules for dating:
1. Don't date crazy women.
2. Don't date religious women.
3. Don't date any woman over age 20 who lives alone with more than 1 cat (this is really a special instance of the first rule) because you will always be 2nd place to the cats.
Yeah, it cut down my dating pool, but it served me well and I did find my dream girl :)
Come on, we all know the reason why dating can be bad news. Because "woman" is the Devil's Gateway; The Doorway To Hell.
http://www.engrish.com/
With the spider's web, all I could think of was the Marianne Faithfull song, "Why D'Ya Do It".
cause she had cobwebs up her fanny
and I believe in giving to the poor
Somehow, I doubt christian dater will be playing this song.
"If a Christian man is kissing his date and it gives him an erection (often just the possibility of a kiss can do this), is God or his date being honored?"
I would say someone is being honored.
If you listen to fundy Christian talk radio you will hear fathers talking about taking their teen aged daughters on regular 'date nights'. The purpose, according to them, is to show their daughters how they should expect men to treat them. Funny, I have never heard any of them advocate that mothers should take their teen aged sons out on regular 'date nights'.
If you really want to get creeped out Google 'purity balls'. You can see pictures of fathers taking their daughters to what are, essentially, proms.
Evolving Squid: So an under-20 girl who lives alone with two cats is okay?
And since I sorta know a girl who has plans to become covered by your Rule 3, I'll play devil's advocate for a moment. She's had problems with her one cat bolting out the front door at any opportunity. A single cat with only one busy person for company can get bored, restless, and possibly destructive.
Three cats is probably where you should draw the line. ;)
OK, if you're a student at a fundy college and you're on the football team, what is the punishment for dancing in the end zone? I mean, besides the 15 yards assessed on the ensuing kickoff....
The other result of this sorry state of affairs is that fundamentalist Christians then end up getting married at frighteningly young ages, because their hormones won't let them think about anything other than sex, but sex isn't allowed outside of marriage, so they mistake the overwhelming need for nookie for True Love(tm) and get hitched so they can just do it already. Most of my fundie friends from college got married the minute they graduated, at age 21 or so. The only ones who didn't had either gotten married sometime during school (because they couldn't even wait that long) or hadn't found anyone yet.
@82:
No actually the story is that god created Adam and Eve, and left them alone in a room for far too long while he went to answer the phone, or some other cosmic thing. Next thing you know, god comes back and eve has flirted with a snake and gotten soul herpes on Adam.
Thus, we are bad because of satan, not because of god. Although, one could say it was still god, because he made us (again, taking the common Christian creation story as truth) exceedingly gullible and absent-minded (Eve with the snake-apple thing minutes after being told not to, and Adam for his part). The lynchpin of that whole story is how god, knowing the existence of Satan his fallen son, apparently thought it was fine to leave us alone in the room with him while he went to run space errands.
What you're left with is god as cosmic parent making the poor decision to leave humanity alone in the room with the water running, and then blaming someone else when crap happens. Wasn't it Hitchens that referred to god as history's most deliquent parent?
>Do Christians not believe in indoor plumbing or something?
No, fundamentalist Christians just don't believe in masturbation either so excusing yourself to "take care of business" is pointless, they're just not allowed.
These people are really just sad and pathetic losers who can't think for themselves and are terrified of their own bodies.
My Moronmon coworker likes to talk about how much she enjoys kissing (when she has someone to kiss, that is), but often leaves out the fact that she doesn't kiss open-mouthed. One day, at an office party, she was complaining about a former boyfriend of hers that preferred playing video games to 'making out' with her. My confusion must have overcome my discretion, because I blurted out to everyone in the room, "No wonder! What's the point if you're not even going to French?!"
I'd feel bad about that if she weren't always telling us things such as "My doctor called me a liar, because he couldn't believe that there were people that don't drink, smoke, or have sex in this day and age," just to remind us that she's above that sort of debauchery.
At least she's kind enough to always wear sleeves that are elbow-length or longer so we don't have to see her magic underweartemple garment.
Evolving Squid, your rules 1 and 2 aren't exactly redundant, but surely there's a great deal of overlap?
Also, not really relevant to this story, but to the "jebus, I wish I thought that were a satire" reaction, I note this story. Ouch!
I don't understand the kissing and engaged part. Engagement is the last time you have to really mull your decision and decide if your walking the aisle. Many if not the majority of engagements never make it to the marriage.
Seems these goofs are walking a fine line.
Choose to not kiss -- At least until you are engaged to be married. Okay, this can be extremely difficult
Nah, it's easy: only date hookers. (The article warns about kissing and intimacy, but doesn't say you can't have sex.)
Hell, when I was in eighth grade, just getting called up to the blackboard to work an algebra problem could give me a woody. And it's not like I particularly enjoyed algebra.
Culture dictates that tranisitons between say, child and adult, between unwed "pure", and married sexual being are sharp black and white, and are marked by rites rituals and ceremonies. It's the dyadic principle. God after all "Invented marriage" (!) Once you're married, once the conceptual switch has been flipped, a couple can indulge in sexual gymnastics...
And the whole point is keeping yourself "spiritually pure", which to an atheist is of course an alien concept...material satisfaction means next to nothing to these theists, you know...
I'm disappointed in you people! Over 115 comments and no Roy Zimmerman link?!?
"Abstain with Me"
Tip #1: Pray - Before you even leave home to meet your date you need to spend time on your knees...
*This*, I assume, is why you're not supposed to pray together *with* your date.
(Fer chrissake, it's just too easy.)
What I want to know is what "fleshly" means? Do they mean fleshy? Or why not just say "of the flesh", this appears to be some attempt to appear biblical in a King James sort of way. If you are following all these guidelines you will need something to distract yourself, why not think about grammar.
did you notice one of the ads on the page was for seeking millionaires.com? beautiful women can always join free? that doesn't sound like an ad you'd find on a real christian dating site.
#106: Purity balls! Ugh, I had a different mental picture.
How can they reject the medieval Christian wisdom that women are more carnal than men? Must be the "other ways of knowing".
Bill, not really Ouch! No (functioning) brain, no pain. He would have been blissed out. Besides the article states he put a tournique on prior to the amputation. Leave one of those long enough and it won't hurt a bit, until you let the tournique off...
Back in 3rd year undergrad physiology they had us put blood pressure cuffs on one arm pumped up tight and left. The sensation of shaking your cold, insensate left hand with your right is really, really weird. Who needs drugs when reality is that interesting? I can still feel it 22 years later.
Hell, when I was in eighth grade, just getting called up to the blackboard to work an algebra problem could give me a woody. And it's not like I particularly enjoyed algebra.
I have some friends who were high school sweethearts and are still married 4 decades later. She first took an interest in him for that very reason (although he really did enjoy algebra).
From the wiki on Purity Balls:
Now, I've never been involved in any animal breeding, but isn't a father pledging to "cover" his daughter somewhat horrifyingly ironic in this context?
I'm jus' sayin'...
While I don't want to blame all my problems on my youth group, I can vividly remember when I was about 14 or 15 being told that one should not consider dating someone unless you had a long term plan to marry them (along with all the other guff about being wary of kissing etc...). The youth leaders would have been no older than their early twenties when they were telling us this.
I was an earnest and attentive student, in all areas, and this teaching must have had a big impact on me, because I still find myself, despite myself, thinking along these lines. I was very guilty about having sexual fantasies, and never dreamed of asking girls out in high school because I was always thinking about the future. Since then, this feeling has eroded but left an echo of instinctive puritanism, despite my present beliefs, and I am to a certain extent paralysed by a mixture of shyness and an atavistic sense that any relationship that will not lead to long term commitment should be avoided.
This sort of teaching is toxic. On the one hand, I think that many Christian youth in the long run end up ignoring it, seeing themselves and their relationships as different or special, and making out/having sex before marriage anyway (and not using contraception, thus causing myriad problems). Which is a wretched, albeit understandable, hypocrisy that I always found deeply distasteful.
On the other hand, in one way or another, I think that the dissonance between some youth groups' teachings about sex and actual experience/observations leads to a great deal of loss of faith (certainly, I know a few people for whom this was the case). This is by no means a bad thing, but it can have an emotional and behavioural cost.
Ha! That deserves a rimshot.
From a recent Dan Savage column:
Regarding the "No Dancing" rule, when my sister was in third grade, she took ballet classes, as many young girls do. At the end of each semester, the class put on a recital. She'd done this ever since she was in kindergarten and was pretty talented for her age. Well, that year we moved to southern Georgia and joined the local mega-baptist church (my mother is a pretty strong fundie). The pastor gave some totally wack-a-doodle sermon on the evils of board games (too much like gambling) and dancing (leads to sin), and my mother asked him about my sister's ballet recital. Well, according to the pastor, that was right out since it is so lascivious (leotards and all). My mother, who does have some sense, was flabbergasted. "But she's in third grade! She doesn't even have any idea what lascivious means!". "Oh no," replied the pastor, "Her dancing may inspire lust in the men in the audience".
So, there ya go. The Baptist Church. Always looking out for the kiddie-diddlers.
You think the Dating Tips are bad? Check out the parental control section, with this telling tidbit:
"Parental controls are not just for kids!
If you are a wife then you'll also be happy to know Safe Eyes Parental Control Filtering Solution also provide a great way for you to help protect your husband from pornography. Simply set the password and the password reminder without your husband having access to the filtering software control panel. He'll thank you over and over."
Yeah, I bet he will.
Well, I do spend a lot of time with my head bowed....between my girlfriend's legs (Bah-dum-Ching!)
That certainly helped me along the path to atheism. I can remember thinking that if I was ever lucky enough to be with a girl who wanted to fool around with me, god could go screw himself.
In animal husbandry, it's called "back-breeding" and it's generally only used to fix newly developed traits, like the ears in the "Scottish Fold" cat. You don't want to do it in in a fixed population, like Hereford cattle.
As for the second point ,yes, the whole "your daughter is your property" is a bit creepy and does have incestuous over-tones. Which drags us right back to the reality of our culture wars.
Like it, or not, when you hear fundamentalist, conservative Christians say they want to promote "moral family values," what they're really talking about is a return to slavery-by-gender. They'll deny it. They'll lie about it. But it's what they want and what they've conditioned their women to want.
Frankly, I'd rather have my daughter be like Skatje than Sarah Schlissel who wrote:
Sure, Skatje got quote-minded by an asshole because she engaged in a theoretical exercise regarding the legislating 'abnormal' sexual behavior. But, damn, least she has a brain and an opinion and can make an argument for herself. And if she did lead with her right and leave herself exposed to said asshole, well, lesson learned. Lead with your left or fight southpaw... :)
MAN, talk about a bizarre hypothetical! Is contortionist masturbation technique really so popular among fundie christians that it needs to be addressed directly?
pretty sure no-one else has made that joke yet...
You know that the site is not a parody when rather than just "Honoring Christ", you are instructed to interfere with other's lives:
Wait, I thought they were against gay couples?
"a lawful change of ownership"
I have no words to express the horror I feel at that mind-set.
-jcr
I really don't want to delve that much into my own history, but yeah. All that stuff the fundies teach about not being physical, yet not dating someone unless you think they might be a marriage prospect, all of the associated guilt no matter what you do and don't do, just because you can't help but think about it, etc. etc. etc., really does mess people up. Badly. Really badly. For a very, very long time.
I am suddenly reminded of a conversation I had some twenty years ago, during my baptist youth group days. During one of the many discussions on relationships, one of the leaders of the group said that if we wouldn't feel comfortable doing something in front of Jesus (because he is always with us), then maybe we shouldn't be doing it. My immediate response was that even outside of dating there are a lot of things I wouldn't want an audience for, such as taking a dump. I was given an immensely dirty look and ignored the rest of the evening...
Can't call "Poe" on that one: it's got too much detail for just a joke, and it seems that James Dobson's "Focus on the Family" mag had an article just like that.
(the link is to an old Freethought Today mag) because Dobson's site doesn't seem to have it in their archives.
And he promises a second coming!
And he promises a second coming!
But it takes three days for him to get up again.
I went to an all-girls Opus Dei school for 6 yrs (grades 7-12), and I got basically the same kind of training. We had yearly "chastity speakers" (that's what they were really called), always women of course, come in to tell us about the evils of kissing. Not holding hands, though. And about how we should only go on group dates, only date someone seriously whom we thought we could marry. And no fooling around at ALL, because the poor boy might be forced to turn to masturbation if we let him become aroused, and then his sin would be partly our fault too. And did you know that boys expend their sexual energy (including the urge to masturbate) through sports? We found that out too. Ah, the good old days.
So presumably it would be appropriate for husband-to-be to propose to father, "I can't afford the monthly payments. How about a three-year lease?"
Clarification: sorry, I should have said in my previous post -- holding hands was just about the only physical contact you were allowed to have with a boy (non-sinfully, that is). But still, we were warned about the dangers of "going steady" and going on non-group dates until we were old enough to start sizing up the boy as a marriage prospect. And how we would be branded as easy and as sluts if we gave into a boy's lust. No mention of the fact that we girls might experience lust too, or even *gasp* want to masturbate.
So presumably it would be appropriate for husband-to-be to propose to father, "I can't afford the monthly payments. How about a three-year lease?"
And what's the return policy?
Not to mention the trade-in policy.
Maybe that's why tackle football is so popular...
If marrying a woman who thinks that way is a "legal change of ownership" than it's a total rip-off even if you don't pay a cent for a dowry. (This is true regardless of the origins of that mindset).
:-o
:-o
At last, something that lets me close my jaws again. The joints started to hurt.
What, have you never had an arm or leg "fall asleep"? Don't you move at night, or do you have some kind of special anastomosing blood vessels or something?
"Brideprice", actually. If the man or his family pays to the woman's family, it's called "brideprice"; "dowry" is when the woman's family pays money or goods into the man's family.
(You see what way too many anthropology classes gets you; I'm never going to get those neurons back for useful things...)
:-o
No.
Careful, David; your face is going to freeze that way. :)
I have a possible use for a man whose face froze "that way." (Heh heh heh...)
#38 and 39:
I nearly choked to death on my cookie.
I hope you're happy.
I meant #139 and 140!
"Just think how magical that first kiss will be if it is saved for your wedding day!"
But what if he/she is a terrible kisser? That would suck if you found out on your wedding day!
But what if he/she is a terrible kisser? That would suck if you found out on your wedding day!
how would you know it was bad? You might just assume people were making a big fuss over nothing.
A little more. I'm reminded of a friend who divorced within the past few years. She never once had an orgasm with her husband, and sort of thought there was something wrong with her; she didn't enjoy or want sex.
She has had a boyfriend for a while now. the first time she had an orgasm, she called me up and was, like, "Oh. My. God. I get it now!"
We used to spend our anniversaries at a wonderful rural bed and breakfast. The innkeepers were progressive folks, so that when one of their daughters asked her father to give her away at her wedding, he resisted, telling her that he couldn't give her away as he didn't own her. But she was insistent, so he told her he would do it, provided that he received a brideprice of two goats. Sure enough, two goats were delivered at the wedding reception, and went on to lead long and happy lives at the B&B. Years later, I noticed they were gone, and never quite had the nerve to ask if they had become a main course.
WWJD?
He'd hit it and quit it, for sure!
once again I am very glad that the church I grew up in was liberal and had no overt sex or dating "rules" - if anything it was about respect - for yourself and your partner.
And that went for teens as well as adults.
Only time I ever had a youth group leader talk to me about sex was when he overheard me talking to some girlfriends about the guy I lost my cherry to...he gently cautioned me to make sure I used protection and to look out for number one...
Hell - youth group retreats were known to be booze-and-sex fests...
Of course, any male bridegroom that can put up with these rules is secretly as gay as a Disney cow, or else he wouldn't put up with these rules.
When I was in high school I told my girlfriend one day that I thought it would be cool to save yourself for marriage, not for any religious reason at all, I think I was just hypothosizing out loud (and possibly trying to seem a little more "sensitive" than I was, since I wanted desperately to have sex with any girl who would let me), and since she was younger than me I respected that she wanted to wait a bit longer.
Two weeks later we're in my station wagon doing everything this side of "it" we could think of when she pauses, looks at me, and says "I'm glad you said it's okay to wait before sex, because even though I kind of want to wait, I'm soooooo horny right now..."
At that point my testicles climbed up my spine and strangled my brain.
"It's great being married to your best friend!"
I thought the goal was a constitutional amendment barring that...
"# Is this healthy for the man to get sexually aroused time after time without sexual release? When men become sexually aroused a large amount of blood flows to the genitals. If ejaculation does not occur; the build up of blood can become painful. That just can't be a good thing for anyone! Ouch! :O)"
See a doctor if you have an erection lasting longer than 4 hours. Oh wait, that's something different....
What I'd be interested to hear is how "being married to your best friend" fits with their view of women as subordinate to men. How can you have a genuine friendship in that kind of situation?
When you completely occlude like that you get a much deeper level than just 'falling asleep' from having lain on something.
If ejaculation does not occur; the build up of blood can become painful. That just can't be a good thing for anyone! Ouch! :O)
That they think that anything short of premature ejaculation is bad for the man explains a lot.
I have to thank this kind of thinking and my old Baptist church for the KINKIEST sex I've ever had.
Ah. The good ol' days!
"HA! Two dating tips are "pray" and "pray in groups". That is hilarious. You have to be kidding me."
Heck, I've prayed before dates. Although probably not for what this site would want you to pray for.
Re: #161
Funniest comment ever
Scott
I want to know what they're planning on doing about this disgusting habit of shaking of hands when a couple first meets
That is golden advice.
Clueless culture-shocked nerd over here. I don't get it. Please explain.
And what is "number one"?
Hard to imagine. I get that quite often. (And yes, it is funny to take your completely insensitive hand out from, say, under your chest using the other hand. The minutes-long electric tingling when the blood comes back, on the other hand... but even then it's funny to feel muscles contract in random order depending on which muscles and which nerves get their blood supply back...)
*Looks around anxiously, as if he was checking for potential danger* Although I'm not religious, I do want to save my first kiss ánd first sex for my first real love (read: first real love, not marrage) because I feel like it's more then just fun. But heej, I'm just a hopeless romantic ;)
"When you completely occlude like that you get a much deeper level than just 'falling asleep' from having lain on something."
"Hard to imagine."
I freely admit I've never tried the blood pressure cuff experiment, but I agree that it's hard to imagine it being more effective than some of the things I managed to do in my sleep in the past. Your description ("shaking a cold and insensate hand") really struck a chord, reminding me of what it's like to wake in the middle of the night with my left arm so cold, numb, and asleep that I'd have to move it very carefully out of the problematic position with my right hand (being completely unable to move my left arm on its own), irrationally terrified that I'd somehow twist my arm the wrong way and cause serious damage. That level of numbness is genuinely frightening because I felt like I could have broken a finger, or even an arm, and not felt a thing. I suppose could imagine the insensate arm feeling colder than it does at those times (I mean, I guess it always could), but I can't imagine it any more insensate.
Of course, the worst was waking up to find I had made both arms fall completely asleep. Trying to wriggle both arms down from raised above my head to a more circulation-friendly position, while unable to move either arm on its own, and afraid to accidentally roll over a finger or twist a joint or tear a muscle and break myself... a very surreal experience. I recall managing to sit up in bed, and then sitting frozen for about 5 minutes, afraid of losing my balance and rolling one way or the other (see aforesaid finger-breaking fear), until finally the pins and needles came.
But like I said, I've never tried it with the cuffs. Not sure I'd want to - those pins and needles can be a bitch.
(It's a tough job, but someone's gotta do it.)
David, I believe the single-entendre regarding a mouth frozen in the shape of an "O" is about its suitability as an orifice for... well, you know. A cigar.
"Number one" is ones self. "Looking out for number one" means taking care of ones self. The expression tends to be used in the context of good advice (as above) or as a justification for, or a description of, selfish behavior.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfKFV1J7O4s
(He Slept On His Arms Last Night)
It's also something else in colloquial English (which was the basis for my lame double entendre in #170).
Uh... ohhhh... LOL... Nice! I totally missed that! :-D
Did anyone else notice that one of the links at the bottom was "Homeschoolers Top 500". Poor kids, they can't even get away from bullshit like this when they're at school, because it's AT HOME. Not that many of them probably know any better than "Goddidit" anyway, if they are reading that site.
Carlie, #109- that might help explain the hight divorce rate in areas with lots of fundamentalists.
These things are important to know because, you know, you wouldn't want to end up upside-down, would you?
I wasn't aware that this explanation was controversial.
It's also not a coincidence that the divorces all hit in the early 30s. They spend their 20s getting married, playing house, having a couple of kids, and then one day wake up, look around, and go "huh?"
I don't understand the kissing and engaged part. Engagement is the last time you have to really mull your decision and decide if your walking the aisle. Many if not the majority of engagements never make it to the marriage.
I think that's a throwback to the days when betrothal vows were very nearly as binding as marriage vows. You could get betrothed quickly, but it could be a long time before a clergyman came around the circuit to marry you. So betrothals really meant something, and it wasn't that big a deal if you slipped.
One more of those areas where the really fundamentalist haven't kept up.
My mother was raised in the catholic church.
(thanks be to the FSM that I wasn't)
She told me once about "Catholic Dating Equipment"
According to her, the nuns told the young ladies
to take a dime and a phone book along on a date.
The phone book to sit on instead of some boy's lap, and the dime to put between your knees.
If the dime hit the floor, pick it up and use it and the phone book to call a cab.
What's wrong with arranged marriages? The practice is still common in much of Asia, and it's really not a bad thing. Love CAN be taught, you know, and arranged marriages will ensure that the woman is taken care of financial. Just think of how many marriages end because of financial problems.
People with viewpoints like the ones Expat is always so eager to showcase are the best argument against "cultural relativism" I've ever encountered.
People with viewpoints like the ones Expat is always so eager to showcase are the best argument against "cultural relativism" I've ever encountered.
Posted by: Azkyroth | January 12, 2008 11:54 PM
What does cultural relativism have to do with financial security? And what culture is more relative to another culture other than its own?
"Cultural relativism" is a somewhat misleading description of a variation of moral relativism, the belief that the morality of actions is determined by the standards, attitudes, and beliefs of the culture in which they occur, and that therefore it is wrong to make moral judgements about attitudes and traditions common in other cultures.
The existence of cartoonishly backward people who argue that arranged marriages are desirable because they "provide financial security for the woman" - in other words, who apparently don't have enough imagination or enlightenment to consider the possibility of financial security (along with independence and personal pride) being best provided by women, say, getting a job, and therefore argue that a social system that treats women as property is the best course - is a convenient rebuttal to idiots who argue that the destructive attitudes of other cultures should never be challenged or derided.
moral relativism, the belief that the morality of actions is determined by the standards, attitudes, and beliefs of the culture in which they occur, and that therefore it is wrong to make moral judgements about attitudes and traditions common in other cultures.
That's not what moral relativism is:
People with viewpoints like the ones Expat is always so eager to showcase are the best argument against "cultural relativism" I've ever encountered.
Although he referred to it being common in Asia, he didn't really offer a cultural relativistic argument; he thinks "it's really not a bad thing", for his own (troglodytic) reasons.
Poor choice of phrasing, sorry. What I was attempting to communicate was a succinct description of the variant of "moral relativism" people are, in my experience, usually referring to when they speak pejoratively of "cultural relativism". The amount of traction this doctrine has in the relevant communities, if nonzero (which the fact that some Westerners defend so-called 'female circumcision' on the grounds of cultural differences and traditions should be sufficient to establish), is otherwise irrelevant to my argument - it doesn't matter whether Expat's troglodytic tendencies are a rebuttal to the beliefs of 10 people or ten percent of a field.
Right, but the fact that the version of "cultural relativism" I cited (representative or otherwise) requires that its adherents refrain from passing judgement on the aforementioned troglodytic reasoning is a persuasive argument against that doctrine as a real-world approach to situations. (This was admittedly somewhat hyperbolic, since there are plenty of cultures which condone even more destructive and appalling practices, but...)
"Cultural relativism" is a somewhat misleading description of a variation of moral relativism, the belief that the morality of actions is determined by the standards, attitudes, and beliefs of the culture in which they occur, and that therefore it is wrong to make moral judgements about attitudes and traditions common in other cultures.
I just realized that you were probably describing cultural relativism, not moral relativism; my apologies. (But your statement was ambiguous.)
P.S. Reading it again, my interpretation was highly implausible. I think I'll go get some sleep.
I've heard it suggested that the combination of marriage and no-sexual-contact-before-it drives up the divorce rate since it encourages getting involved in nonsexually compatible relationships.
Mrs Tilton: I saw a movie about it in a sociology of religion class, so it seems to be more or less correct. There was a bit about a young Amish-raised guy who wanted to fly an airplane before deciding on whether to join the community for good.
Stanton: I've wondered whether that's a reference to the passage in the OT somewhere where the Israelites are told not to defecate in the camp because the lord walks amongst them there.
Sergeant Zim: I did see some in Maine around 20 years ago. Dunno if the Shakers are now extinct - those did look pretty old with not any youth in sight.
Quite a few, actually. Even have a couple pairs, but we keep them put away; ceramics on the table and three-year-olds don't mix.
Three cats is probably where you should draw the line. ;)
I had to draw the line at 1, technically, since I am quite violently allergic to the little beasts :) Of course, that means cats LOVE me, and drop whatever they are doing to seek me out.
If a website talked about the disadvantages of smoking would this be called for comment. Smoking is a pleasurable activity but it has its downside.
Sex outside of marriage may be pleasurable but it has its downside.
Communicable diseases.
An emotional commitment to somebody you may not really like.
An unintended pregnancy.
A lack of trust that you can commit to a person, or person can commit to you for the rest of their life.
These consequences are quite factual, easily proven.
The other consequence important to people who believe in God is that sexual immorality generally makes a belief in God evaporate. No problem if you're not interested in eternal salvation, but the connection between sexual immorality and loss of belief also a demonstratable fact.
The other consequence important to people who believe in God is that sexual immorality generally makes a belief in God evaporate.
So, fucking other men made me an atheist? Whatever, I'm grateful for both.
Sex inside of marriage may be pleasurable but it has its downside.
Having to be fucking married!
Is it? Please demonstrate.
Isn't this the very definition of question-begging?
Rocket Science, looks like you'll need a remedial lesson in logic before you can talk about 'easily proving' anything.
And as a matter of taste, it's generally considered tacky to post using a nom d'écran proclaiming your intellectual virtues, especially when you're a fucking retard.
"No problem if you're not interested in eternal salvation, but the connection between sexual immorality and loss of belief also a demonstratable fact."
Rocket Scientist
Please provide the demonstration of this "fact".
Please provide the demonstration of this "fact".
I'd like some evidence of this "eternal salvation" bullshit. You got nothing.
I found the posting funny. And the author is right. It is biased. Men are the actors. Waiting to kiss seems a bit much. I went to college in the deep south bible belt.
And I knew many a "secondary" virgin. Afterall, we are human and though abstinence may be favored by God, it ain't natural. That's why I think so many fundamental Christian kids get married so soon. They're anxious.
Moreover, I get the satire and I find most of the comments witty and clever. But as a Christian and a Scientist, I like to remind everyone (my Christian lay friends and my spiritually neutral science friends) that science and exercising spirituality aren't mutuallly exclusive. I don't make fun of atheiest scientists and I don't let my Christian friends make unchecked assumptions about scientists' beliefs about God. I dated a guy who assumed I was atheist because I was a biologist. That bothered me.
I think asexual dating is silly too, I just wish some of the comments hadn't resorted to insulting others spiritual positions.
I just wish some of the comments hadn't resorted to insulting others spiritual positions.
and if the position was scientology?
what then?
the patently ridiculous is worthy of insult, and we do a disservice NOT to do so.
I just wish some of the comments hadn't resorted to insulting others spiritual positions.
Your "spiritual position" is stupid and that's a fact.
Having to be fucking married!
fucking... married.
hmm. that sounds like a good description of exactly the kind of marriage you are talking about.
"I married for love"
"I married for money"
"really? i married for fucking"
I'm fucking married.
or maybe fucking-married?
so, a whole set of different classes of marriage:
love-marriage
money-marriage
fucking-marriage
child-marriage (married for the kids' sake)
could have combinations and subsets...
tax-shelter-marriage (subset of money-marriage?)
money/fucking-marriage
?
best comedian to flesh this out into a routine:
George Carlin
I read the article and the comments with some amusement. I'm an Orthdox Jew, and my marriage was a based on a no-touch before hand relationship.
The assumption that one has to practice sex before marriage to make it companionable and interesting and fun is risible. There is a (hopefully) lifetime to practice and have fun, to come to understand each others needs and desires.
Those of us who marry without engaging in physical relationships first, base our marriage on life goals, intellectual and emotional compatablity, and religious drives. We were friends first, lovers was the next step.
I do understand the Christian attitude towards sex is different from the Jewish one,(making a huge generalization). Sexual joy between the couple is to be lauded. Pleasing ones wife is an obligation on the part of the husband.
But sexual gratification isn't the most important part of a marriage. It is a huge part, but it comes from truly understanding one's spouse, their needs, their desires, what they feel and think about.
We are partners; we respect each other intellectually, morally and sexually.
Its a goodlife.
The assumption that one has to practice sex before marriage to make it companionable and interesting and fun is risible.
It's your ridiculous strawman that is risible. No one here (or probably anywhere) has assumed or claimed that it isn't possible to have a companionable, interesting and fun marriage without having had sex beforehand.
Then why post at all? The advice wasn't for everyone, but for Christians. Just as advice given to Jews on Jewish websites for proper behavior while dating is meant for Jews and not for anyone else.
The Onions humours piece certainly seems to imply that such a relationship will lead to a boring, sexually frustrated marriage.
Comments such as these:
Your "spiritual position" is stupid and that's a fact.
and this one
As well as this comment:
Basically, they're saying the way to court someone for a sexual relationship is to avoid all physical contact with the person.
That wedding day is going to be some fun, isn't it? They won't know how to kiss, they won't know how to have sex, and they're going to expect paradise when all they're going to get is clumsy fumbling and awkward embarrassment.
Do you really think those who are religious don't have knowledge? Of course the first few times are may be fumbling...the first time for anything is likely to be fumbling. But most of the couples know that, and don't expect fireworks, but expect to work together. And there is a lot of fun in the learning experience. Why does it have to go smoothly to have it be fun and enjoyable?
Comments such as these:
Boring, chaste, and offering nothing but faint hopes. No intimacy is allowed, not even a kiss.
within the blog post indicate that without sexual contact of some sort dating is dull. I didn't find my dates with my husband dull, and I can tell you that none of the young people I know who are in a relationship with another have described their dates as boring, and from many conversations with those who have passed that stage and are now married, dating was anything but boring.
Obviously those who believe in G-d do belive G-d cares.
Don't belive in G-d well of course one thinks it silly to believe that G-d cares.
Perhaps the original post had no purpose then making fun of those who are religious and give an outlet to those who like to laugh at other people for their practices.
I suppose I missed the point.
Do you think that these "Christian dating tips" types want young people to have knowledge about sex?
Don't belive in G-d well of course one thinks it silly to believe that G-d cares.
Perhaps the original post had no purpose then making fun of those who are religious and give an outlet to those who like to laugh at other people for their practices.
I suppose I missed the point.
Nope, you got the point. Your religion is ridiculous.
Hey folks; medium/long-time reader, first-time poster [and fellow godless liberal]. Alas, my first post is going to be a completely anal nit-pick [ew, that sounds really gross.]
Anyway, at Seargenat Zimm, #87:
The Immaculate Conception does NOT refer to the sexless conception of Jesus or anyone else. It actually refers to the notion that Mary herself was conceived without original sin to be an appropriate vessel for god's bastard son. But she was indeed the result of fucking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_conception
Speaking of virgins, now that I've popped my posting cherry here, perhaps y'all see more of me. If not, keep up the good work folks! Only blog I read!
:-o
:-o
At last, something that lets me close my jaws again. The joints started to hurt.
What, have you never had an arm or leg "fall asleep"? Don't you move at night, or do you have some kind of special anastomosing blood vessels or something?
:-o
No.
Clueless culture-shocked nerd over here. I don't get it. Please explain.
And what is "number one"?
Hard to imagine. I get that quite often. (And yes, it is funny to take your completely insensitive hand out from, say, under your chest using the other hand. The minutes-long electric tingling when the blood comes back, on the other hand... but even then it's funny to feel muscles contract in random order depending on which muscles and which nerves get their blood supply back...)