The Bible's one true value

I love Eddie; and that suit is pretty fabulous. Much better than some of his other choices.

It is absurd!!! That's actually what I'm trying to show in my blog 'Blogging the NT'(http://bloggingthent.blogspot.com) ...

Don't forget the beginning of time.

hey, where'd the link go?

http://thegodofbiscuitsgospel.blogspot.com/2007/11/this-is-just-begging…

The bible is like a little kids explanation of things.

I do like Tobogganing, and Jam. Thanks god!

Thank God, who was James Mason, for Eddie Izzard.

Thank God, who was James Mason, for Eddie Izzard

As my link clearly shows, God is an intersection in Cambridge, MA.

Gotta love Eddie. Great James Mason voice btw.

Best God in a film?

Hands down; Ralph Richardson in 'Time Bandits'. Bumbling, twinkly, forgetful, a 'little slap-dash but heart in the right place' kind of fellow. Inspired.

"... the etch-a-sketch end of the world."

That line was priceless!

You gonna make me delurk for this one, aincha?

Nah, the Bible's other true value is that it allows all of you to feel so SUPERIOR. And what would you do without that? ;)

Daisy,

Maybe the problem is that you feel offended because you believe something that other people find ridiculous, something that is, on it's face, ridiculous.

Jeff, it's the elitism and constant stench of superiority that is offensive. I'm a lefty. If you're a right-winger, then it makes sense you think you have the right to diss people for whatever reason (religious belief or lack of it included), since you feel you are superior and it's therefore justified. Otherwise, I don't get it.

The content of the video doesn't offend me, I watch South Park, et al.

Margaret Thatchers Heart... "I'll put a stone in..." Too funny.

And Jeff, yeah, it may be ridiculous... but not nearly as ridiculous as obsessing over something I claim I don't believe in, as you do.

People Who Don't Want Their Beliefs Laughed at Shouldn't Have Such Funny Beliefs

-- thanks, GrrrlScientist. http://scienceblogs.com/grrlscientist/2008/01/top_fifty_atheist_tshirt_…

Just so much comedy potential.

Ricky Gervais enjoys it too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaEj3g5GOYA&feature=related

Daisy,

Since when is being a lefty a non-critical stance?

Oops, I mean thanks *TO* GrrlScientist. I was giving the credit, not impersonating.

Daisy, try to think about your own attitude toward children who get all excited about Santa or the tooth fairy; it's hard not to condescend when talking to them, isn't it?

"People Who Don't Want Their Beliefs Laughed at Shouldn't Have Such Funny Beliefs"

GrrlScientist, you mean like believing in spelling words all cutesy and hip and trendy like "Grrrl"? Good point. I'll make a point not to laugh, but usually I do.

Ian, what's wrong with Santa and the Tooth Fairy? (No, I don't condescend to children or anyone else.)

Jeff, when I say "lefty", I refer to class consciousness, one of those old-fashioned ideas I subscribe to. An interesting offshoot is the idea of "false consciousness" which I think probably interests you and others here? (or not?)

OMFG, Daisy is a Paul-bot!!! Hey, Daisy, after Paul loses the primary, draft him for an independent run! The right needs its Nader.

but not nearly as ridiculous as obsessing over something I claim I don't believe in, as you do.

Actually lets look:

1. religious people pushing laws, tax exampt status, taking science from students, relieving the poor of their money to fund mega churches and manshions, molesting alter boys, causing general harm in inumerous ways.

Is this reason for obsessing over something you don't believe in or is it obsessing over something that can cause real harm. It appears there is a difference.

Somebody doesn't know how to read. I voted strategically for Ron Paul. As stated previously, I'm a lefty.

Moses, I hope your "science" isn't like your reading comprehension.

Tim Minchin's ode to religion... (not safe for those offended by blasphemy)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2505562471952271259&q=tim+minc…

Jim, are you saying all religion inevitably leads to these things? Can you prove this hypothesize?

Because I think that is an emotional appeal, as groundless as saying "All atheists are immoral/amoral," blah blah blah...

Hi Daisy,

"Jeff, it's the elitism and constant stench of superiority that is offensive."

Hmm. No, that's different not elitist and group bonding humour not superiority. If you place those others labels on what you see here I think it tells us a little about how you think, Daisy.

Don't be so hard on yourself, we're not. Nobody here has a problem with your belief just the way it gets organised and shoved in our faces as if we're the sub-humans :)

Plus we're the minority here (for awhile) so you and your chip on each shoulder could do with feeling a little less persecuted cos that really does seem backwards.

Allan, I don't feel persecuted at all. Are you kidding? I live in SOUTH CAROLINA! I wouldn't mind yall winning a few, (or a LOT!), in this neck of the woods. I just don't think your superior attitude is the way to accomplish that.

I've just put up with Mike Huckabee, et al. babbling away that the elites would like to silence believers and all that populist stuff right out of WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH KANSAS. Then I come here and I see people, yes, bragging about how smart they are and how dumb the believers are. Just what he said. ugh.

I don't think that's the way to go about it, which is why I brought up the matter of false consciousness, and another possible approach.

OK so you're reacting against what you saw in the Republican nomination race. I understand and sympathise if you are a 'lefty'.

I still think you are projecting a little about the attitudes here but that's up to you. And if you want to criticise how various contributors here go about debating with religious believers then your viewpoint is welcome if it's backed-up by some rational thinking and evidence.

BTW I for one am still ignoring the hook of your false consciousness tag cos I really don't want to know, thanks.

Let's think about a class analysis, and draw an analogy from it.

There are two major classes in society, let's call them faith-heads and free-thinkers. The faith-heads are the dominant class, indeed the prominence of the belief in belief, the continual offense taken when the "common sense" of the existence of god is questioned or ridiculed, points to the hegemonic position that the ruling class's ideas enjoy. Indeed when we note that this "common sense" obscures the nature of reality and justify the maintenance of a system of oppression toward free-thinkers, indeed when we utilize one of the tools of the oppressed class, the tool of ridicule, well, people get very fussy indeed.

Finally, on a different note. This is not the only thing many of us do with our lives. The so-called "obsession" is one interest among many for a lot of us. It just so happens that this site has developed a public surrounding that issue in particular, and many of us who gather here like to talk about that. I do a lot of shit outside the virtual world, and it covers a lot of different fields of social and political action. Don't assume this is the only thing any of us do.

Daisy:

I've just put up with Mike Huckabee, et al. babbling away that the elites would like to silence believers and all that populist stuff right out of WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH KANSAS.

Xians self identify in the USA as 82% of the population. Much of the rest are other religions such as Jews, Hindus, etc.. That is hardly the mark of a downtrodden threatened minority. The elites don't want to silence believers, as they are useful puppets when it is time to get out the votes. All you have to do is chant Family Values, Abortion, Gays, and Evolution and they robotically vote for you. Huckabee is just lying and he undoubtedly knows it, being from Arkansas where he was elected in just this way.

As to the people here being elitists and laughing at the fundies. You need to think a little harder. Most of them are a downtrodden, despised and feared, minority, atheists (or agnostics) at 5-10% of the population. They are scared to death that if the Christofascists win and they are very close, owning Bush and the congress up until 2006, that they will either be even more persecuted, end up in a self destructing civilization, and/or end up fleeing the country as refugees.

It is not farfetched. The old USSR was sitting on the top of the world, threatening to bury capitalism and spreading communism across the globe. One day it just collapsed leaving the citizens, some of whom I know, in a state of shock and dead broke.

Allen, well thanks for understanding. Too many Republicans will do it to you. If you haven't read WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH KANSAS, check it out. One of it's themes is about the popular perception among poor/working class people that "the elites" are atheist and/or secular, and how the Republicans have successfully capitalized on that.

Jeff, your analysis/analogy may be the most amazing hyper-educated-upper-class-American-white-man statement I've heard all day, since Huckabee and company left town. Hope you don't mind if I quote you?

you were the one who brought up lefty false consciousness--I just brought out the Marx and Gramsci. You do know who they are, right?

Raven, I know all that, thanks. You didn't have to type all that.

Seriously though, I am probably one of only a few people here who has actually received *real threats* from fundies. I think it's possible they hate (people they regard as) heretics more than they hate you, but I won't argue the point.

Seriously though, I am probably one of only a few people here who has actually received *real threats* from fundies.

Bullshit. Answering machine and mail. I'm one of the things they really hate. A godless faggot. Knock off the crap.

What you want is, as usual, for atheists to shut up. Don't make any criticism, but particularly don't have fun with any criticism. Don't use ridicule or humor. Make nice with the people who want to fuck us over, who want people like me dead.

And failing that, because there might be some "nice people," don't point out what links them to the people who want me dead.

Um, I think so. Gramsci was a very short but handsome Italian dude who wrote letters from jail, and Karl Marx was the perpetually unemployed son of a clergyman whose wife mostly supported him, right?

(See--why do you have to be so condescending? That's what I'm talking about!)

Your analogy ignores the actual oppressed people of the world, you know, in places like Mauritius and Uganda...and well, I momentarily found it amazing. Gramsci, indeed.

As I said, may I quote you?

Ah, Daisy,

How trite. Could it really be Daisy Mae Scragg, after all these years? Al may have made you look good for many years, but by now Daisy, you must look as nasty as Mammy.

And yes, Daisy Mae, we DO enjoy feeling superior. If you are truly stupid enough to believe in that poorly plagarized piece of shit you call the bible, you deserve NOTHING but derision and contempt.

You have a very poor platform, there, Daisy Mae, coming from the inbreeding capital of America. Try not to draw too much attention to yourself. You're only making yourself look and sound dumber than your related parents. Try to rise, Daisy Mae, try to rise above the shit pit of your surroundings and learn, learn to read, read and research, research and finally, finally, realise that following the insane ravings of camel humping desert rats from 2000 years ago is just idiotic.

Elitist? Damn right. We have something to be elitist about, you shit kicking moron. Now get your inbred ass back to Dogpatch.

As I said, may I quote you?

Glad you enjoyed. I was laughing the entire time I wrote it. But there is something underneath it. Belief is special. Leave it alone. Shut up atheists. Again and again and again....

And I know about class and being poor. I can feel the boston winter through my walls. Fuck off.

Jeff, excuse me, you knock it off. You are educated, well off and work safely in a fucking IVORY TOWER. Are they coming after your job? No. Do they have the power to get you fired? No. Do they control the political climate and the city counsel, senate, congress, state and county government where you LIVE? No. Have they gotten you audited? Have they gotten you fired? Have they gotten you evicted? Have they slashed your tires? If not, STFU. I DO know what I am talking about, sir. I am talking about co-workers and my LIVELIHOOD. I am a WORKING CLASS PERSON and I can't just point and jeer at the fundies, they CONTROL a great deal of my families' resources. I have to work with them and live next to them. They are my BOSSES. Are they yours?

As for "I want the atheists to shut up"--oh cut the victimization narrative, Mr Spoiled College Professor. Want some cheese with that whine?

well off

You know shit.

I work part-time, year-to-year. I'm pretty goddamned vulnerable. I have zero job security. I had to borrow money to pay rent and eat for the first two weeks of this month. Knock of the leftier than thou.

Ohhh, Mr Logician, you just failed the Turing Test. I wondered when the southern stuff would start. Can't you do any better than that? Inbred? Wow, how original. That is the FIRST TIME I've ever heard any southern-inbreeding jokes in the whole ten years I've been online!

Jeff, answer my questions, each one separately. When did CHRISTIANS get you fired, again? Have you been audited, etc? I wasn't kidding about that... I gave real examples. Now you wanna laugh them off.

Make up your mind. Are you more oppressed than me or not? You said you were, now you say fuck off. Which is it? You seem confused.

And you, Daisy Mae, failed the truth test.

Feeling a bit insecure over your own stupidity? Have to snark at those who are obviously your betters? Poor, persecuted Daisy Mae, so put upon by the 'fundies' she has to hassle grad students in Minnesota.

You're just another jack-off troll, so full of shit you have to spew north to get enough breathing room. None of your pronouncements are true. They ring just off center enough to reveal you as just another moron trying to best your betters.

Feel a little put out by your elitist betters? You should, dumbass.

Are you more oppressed than me or not? You said you were,

Never said any such thing. Nice lie though.

"If you are truly stupid enough to believe in that poorly plagarized piece of shit you call the bible,"

It's spelled "plagiarized"... and I may be stupid, but I do know how to use spellcheck.

When I referred to the elitists, I referred to the EDUCATED people here. Obviously, not a 14-year-old who can't spell and still resorts to southern jokes. Exempt yourself, okay?

Why am I supposed to honor grad students in Minnesota, because they are all above-average? Huh? What are you talking about?

Is this what passes for "logicians" around here?

Hey Daisy,
More people might take your pleas for knocking off the victimization narratives seriously if you didn't just spout a whole bunch of bitching and moaning about how the fundies control your life. Lay off the caps key and kindly stop trolling for fights, because that's exactly what you're doing.

That gigantic chip on your shoulder is preventing you from contributing anything meaningful to this conversation. Do you have anything else to say beside ranting and railing at academia or spewing your paranoid persecution fantasies? Jeebus.

Jeff, so your analogy was not made in (pardon expression) good faith? What did you mean then, when you said atheists were oppressed?

It's not just the fundies, though, it's us atheists. Because we giggle and laugh and ridicule, we make the fundies point for them, we confirm their prejudices. So, because fundies are fools and assholes, we have to be nice so that maybe they won't be fools and assholes.

And who's laughing off. I'm saying that we've both had different experiences. I've been harrassed at work and on the streets for being gay. I've received death threats (as I mentioned). I also worked in the court system as a victim advocate for LGBT folks, and I've seen and experienced how said systems fuck with people. When I was living in Minnesota, I was never sure to watch my back because I was an open atheist or an open queer. I was laid off from jobs because of budget cuts. I've spent major sections of my work life as a secretary (not so privileged as a professor). You;re making all these assumptions, that aren't warranted. And you started it all by getting fussy with a bunch of atheists making fun of the bible....after that it became all this other stuff.

You don't know the work many of us do or have done. You know we're atheists who don't respect belief, find it ridiculous, and ridicule it. And that, apparently, is beyond the pale.

Side musing:
What is it about academia that brings the rabid froth to the mouths of people like Daisy, anyway? Full-time, I make significantly less than most of my students will right after they graduate, and less than over half of them do now while they're in school (we have lots of nontrads on my campus). People like MAJeff who adjunct make less money than people who work at McDonald's. I know high school teachers who still qualified for food stamps while employed full-time as teachers. Where on earth does the idea of a well-off academician come from?

Shigella, sure, wanted to talk about the Huckabee campaign. Came here to read the Texas thread, which was linked on a private list I am on. (I just commented on it about a half hour ago.) Several of the Huckabee people are active in our local school board, and they are trashing the joint even worse than it is already. (He got them all "stirred up" if you know what I mean.)

I liked the advice given, but I could never run for office, they'd have me for dinner! The candidate I am backing, Ted Christian (excuse name! I don't know if he is or not!), is really great though, and I have decided to redouble my efforts on his behalf.

Um, excuse me, but I only 'bitched and moaned' when Jeff said my reports of threats against me were bullshit. I assure you, they are not.

And Shigella, a chip on MY shoulder? What do you think of Logician's southern-baiting and inbred jokes? I take it that's all good fun for you, too?

Hey, Daisy Mae, stop trolling, you're make-up is cracking and you're disappointing your brother.

If you are truly as persecuted as you claim, which we all know is bullshit, give us some examples. And don't pull that "I'll be found out!" shit. If you won't give any examples, which we also know you can't, we'll know you're full of shit, (a foregone conclusion, but hey, since you're playing the pathetic inbred victim, we'll let you drown yourself in your own shit).

In case your trainer/handler hasn't noticed, this comment section was about Eddie Izzard, not about inbred hillbillies, so why not go back to making babies with your brother, eh?

culturally, we are. (and in some parts of the world, it does carry the death penalty). How would an open atheist do running for office in SC? For President? Faith is given a credence that nonfaith isn't. I drew a lose analogy--it's not necessarily based directly in material conditions, but many opportunity structures are closed to people who openly espouse nonbelief.

Um, excuse me, but I only 'bitched and moaned' when Jeff said my reports of threats against me were bullshit. I assure you, they are not.

I did not say they were bullshit. I said that I, too, had received them.

shit, i had the cops tracing it to a basement phone in the residence halls...but no one was ever associated with the phone. I know the terror. I wasn't discounting it but saying, you're not alone in that....that you seemed to assume none of the rest of us had ever experienced such a thing.

Carlie, just curious, who are "people like Daisy"? Is this just a polite way to call me inbred, or what?

I'm rabid? I guess you missed Logician, then?

(So, is he a regular? Is he the resident pit bull? Is that why everything he says is okay with all of you?)

They are not being addressed, Daisy Mae. You are. They speak for themselves as I speak for myself.

And Daisy Mae, you were just given a chance to prove your poor, poor case for your sad, sad, persecution.

We're not hearing anything, troll. Why not just admit who you are and get back to boffing your bro, troll?

Wow. Quite a bit of fun watching a mere Eddie Izzard clip go that far afield.

Daisy, I have yet to see anyone here acting "SUPERIOR," so please feel free to point them out to me. Yes, I do indeed see a lot of people pointing out stupidity, just like everywhere else in the world - if that's supposed to be your act of superiority, well, then, guilty as charged, along with 99.999% of the human population, and some of the robots. You've got your work cut out for you.

If you think that the respectful, let-me-help-you-see-the-flaws-in-the-logic approach is the proper way, you've missed a few thousand years of human history where this simply does not work. If the vast majority of humans could handle rationality, we wouldn't have any of those things we call stupid in the first place.

And yet, right here in the land of the smug & superior, you have people engaging you in honest discussion. I haven't seen anyone call you stupid. Or evil, heathen, satanist, misled, forsaken, or self-righteous, smug, superior, and all the others that you see should an atheist dare talk sense on a loving, kindly, we-are-all-brothers crisschin blog. 'Cause we persecute them so badly, doncha know.

So, what is the level of stupidity one has to reach before the political-correctness police will allow you to recognize it as stupid? Or are you going to argue that it serves some purpose to treat nonsense as sense? Because surely then the stupid will see for themselves how stupid they're being... wait...

And for someone who claims to have been threatened by a fundie for your views, you seem to find it horribly oppressive to be forced to read a few remarks on a blog. What, does someone have you strapped into some kind of Clockwork Orange blog-washing rig? Does your mouse-clicking finger have a boo-boo?

But hey, you've already demonstrated all I need to see, with your lovely, insightful, and respectful analysis of, "hyper-educated-upper-class-American-white-man." Thanks for your guidance on behavior! Always refreshing to see someone willing to drag us out of the muck we get ourselves into. Please, show us more light from the ways of the non-superior!

;-)

Jeff, in that case, my apologies.

If yall wanna read my Bob Jones University pieces, that is what brought out the attack dogs. On the St Stephen (Dec 26) thread--in the comments there is actually an argument that I had with the Calvinist whack-job who attempted to get me fired. It should scare YOU GUYS to death, even more than it did me. It's about how they intend to take over the government. They call it "theonomy"... some kind of goofy theory.

Logician, directing insults at people based on ethnicity or origin is called bigotry. In case you didn't know.

FTW, I keep my Christmas lights on, on my front porch all year long/And I know all the words to every Charlie Daniels song. :P

Holy shit, Daisy! Do you have a persecution complex, or what? Please tell me anything in my post that even insinuated that I was trying to slur your ethnicity, regional background, or family history.

It was somewhat of a circular reference - I was asking a question regarding people who have the mistaken belief that academics are financially well-off, and using you as example A since you had just brought it up. The implied descriptive finish to the sentence "...of people like Daisy" was "who make comments like that regarding how well-off academics are". I didn't think it was necessary to be so wordy, because it should have been apparent in context what I meant, but I guess I need to spell it out for you explicitly so that you don't get the wrong idea, because you're one of those people who see secret insults wherever you look.

in the comments there is actually an argument that I had with the Calvinist whack-job who attempted to get me fired.

hmm, isn't Dave Heddle a Calvinist?

[Cue the frothing rant now, which may have already begun]

Meanwhile, back on something even remotely resembling the original blog post, that is simply the best imitation of a giraffe I've ever seen.

Okay, I suspect it's the only imitation of a giraffe I've ever seen, but still...

Oooo, quoting a singing slut, now? Aren't we ever just the surprise?

Actually, no. Again, Daisy Mae, you had ANOTHER chance to SHOW us the EVIDENCE of your persecution (not simply obliquely hint at)and you instead quote a singer PROUD to be an ignorant bitch.

Get the hell out of here, you trolling liar.

Just Al, are you being funny?

"And yet, right here in the land of the smug & superior, you have people engaging you in honest discussion. I haven't seen anyone call you stupid."

I guess you don't count "shit-kicking moron," "jack-off troll," "try to rise above the shit pit of your surroundings," being called a liar and the injunction to take my inbred ass back to Dogpatch?

Are you reading the same thread I am?

Yea, that giraffe is cool. I've listened to Izzard for years but had never seen him in action. Adds a whole new dimension to his comedy, elitist or not.

Actually, Ricky Gervais was far more elitist in his critique. and quite funny as well.

Jeff, in that case, my apologies.

I want to accept it, but I'm hesitant. And I'll tell you why.

There are very many people here who have themselves escaped from the very traditions you're fighting. I didn't come from Southern Baptist, but from Christian Reformed (my sister--a Methodist minister--calls them Dutch Southern Baptists; all the rules but none of the emotions). So, a lot of us are coming from a position of having thrown off all the nonsense, and honestly, you need to understand how liberatory this shit can be (aside from, the very silly, very funny things we come up with based on these stories--even if they weren't blasphemous, you've got some people who are creative with language and just have fun...these things meld together).

You may feel out of place (I head this far too much) because the fundies aren't the type of christian you want to be, but we nasty atheists don't seem to want you either.

We all have and continue to work with religious people on a regular basis--in our work lives, in our political lives, in our volunteer lives, in our family lives. Many of us keep our mouths shut most of the time, politely smiling while thinking, "Oy, not again."

Then, when we get a space where we can, 1) say what we really think; 2) have fun with it, and when that space consistently gets invaded by people complaining about us doing it, we get fussy. Particularly when you make such assumptions about things. Yeah, I teach college and am working on a PhD. Economic conditions (housing costs, health care costs--particularly mental health and dental care, but even having to pay for a dislocated elbow out of pocket or emergency dental care to fill a hole in my tooth--twice in two years in the same tooth--loan debt, etc) are well known to me. When people start going off on my class politics...I've probably spent an equal amount of time as a secretary as a teacher. I've been evicted because the wiring in the illegal apartment I was living in (again, only rent i could afford) went haywire. Yeah, I teach and I speak like an academic. I'm living far from well. And that also drove me over the edge. You've got a lot of people here, from a lot of backgrounds. Some of us are academics. Some of use are not. We occupy a lot of socio-economic locations. But, again, we have to shut up about one of the reasons we come together in this particular discursive space.

I keep my Christmas lights on, on my front porch all year long

does it work?

does Santa bring you more presents?

if so, what are you wasting time here for? You should be writing a book about it. Likely would be a NYT bestseller!

Oooo, quoting a singing slut, now? Aren't we ever just the surprise?

A sexist pig, also! Aren't we ever just the surprise! Yes, I can readily see how ENLIGHTENED you are, all right!

I guess you'd probably fit in real well with the Bob Jones crowd--they call her a slut, too! Can't tell you apart without a scorecard! (Doesn't that embarrass you at all?)

Actually, no. Again, Daisy Mae, you had ANOTHER chance to SHOW us the EVIDENCE of your persecution (not simply obliquely hint at)and you instead quote a singer PROUD to be an ignorant bitch.

Get the hell out of here, you trolling liar.

Now come on, no matter how smart you are, you couldn't have read my whole St Stephen thread THAT FAST!

Carlie, and you really think I'm the frothing one here? Really?

The Bible is superior to 'The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy' because it has the word PANIC in large friendly letters sprinkled through the text.

"It ain't those parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand" - Mark Twain.

Ich, I was quoting what one of your comrades refers to as a "singing slut"... I'm learning all about how smart the atheists are, how enlightened, how morally superior, etc.

Seriously, is sexist language like that acceptable here? I see that bigoted language based on origin and ethnicity is. What else is allowed? Anything goes?

See, maybe that is what people are afraid of, Social Darwinism, not just Darwinism. This is what I heard the GOP saying all week.

You reveal your hillbillie-ness, Daisy Mae, reveling in the singing of a woman who enjoys calling herself trailer trash.
And you also reveal you're no atheist but just another mealy-mouthed troll looking to start fights and obfuscate the issue.
The issue here, troll, is that Izzard does an excellent job at pointing out the STUPIDITY of the scriptures. If you have a problem with people laughing about that, it's not because you're an "everyman" atheist like your troll profile tries to outline, but simply because you're just another lying xain piece of crap.

Anything goes?

yup.

you started it, now finish it.

your armor doesn't appear to be all that thin to me, though it is camouflaged a bit.

This is what I heard the GOP saying all week.

why are you even bothering to listen to them?

so you can hear what you expected to hear:
lies and more lies?

Jeff, absolutely true, no question, that an atheist could never be elected here, as Romney also didn't make a dent. I think it would be regarded as the same. (Well, should say, they simply couldn't be "out" as an atheist. I'm sure there have been a few we didn't know about.)

Carlie and Jeff, there are different types of elites. People who have a lot of money and property think they are superior for these reasons, while people who are good-looking or athletic think they are superior for THOSE reason. Etc. And people who are well educated believe THAT makes them superior. Education is the arena that children are exposed to first, and would be the reason that Huckabee & Co. would consider well-educated academics the "elite"--they appear to control the educational framework and curriculum. Whether they really do, as you point out, is a good question.

They have obviously convinced the Baptists, since a huge number (locally) homeschool or send their kids to the junior Bob Jones (or affiliated) schools.

Okay, I will leave, as asked. I can see I am just going to be ordered by Logician-the-bot to leave, until I do. Anyone who wants to continue the argument in (haha) good faith, (Carlie or Jeff?), my email is on my profile. We could argue and put it on blogs, or something interesting like that, if you like. :)

Logician, I never said I was an atheist, and most people here figured that out from the git-go. I called myself a HERETIC--maybe you should look it up?

Ichthyic--I "listen" to them because I cover politics and I am involved in politics. I'm about making change; that's what I do. I've been doing it all my life.

And tolerating vicious, sexist insults, does not speak well of any of you. But it does explain why there are so few women here, which I had wondered about before.

As Gidget used to say, Toodles.

they appear to control the educational framework and curriculum. Whether they really do, as you point out, is a good question.

do you personally think well educated people shouldn't control the educational framework?

I cover politics and I am involved in politics.

like i said, you camouflage your armor well.

don't forget, you tested our armor first:

Nah, the Bible's other true value is that it allows all of you to feel so SUPERIOR. And what would you do without that? ;)

run along, now, child.

go play soldier somewhere nice and warm.

Actually, Daisy Mae, I find I must apologize.

You are not a xian troll, I was wrong about that. After reading your blog, I find that no, you're not a xian, just a wasted old hippie who doesn't know WHAT the shit she believes: "On drugs, herbs, antidepressants, addiction, mothers and other things..."

Nothing to be proud of, in any case. For those of us smart enough NOT to burn ourselves out with drugs, yes, we DO find fundies funny, and drugged out feel-good nipple-rubbing herbalists even funnier. Like, wow, babe, did you REALLY see the WHOLE universe?

After 47 years of dealing with you idiots who thought doing drugs would give you an 'edge' and people stupid enough to believe in an invisible sky god I've lost any patience with handling you with anything but disgust.

Do you REALLY think quoting a nasty ole piece of trailer trash makes you BETTER than those who haven't burned their bodies out with drugs?

you really think I'm the frothing one here? Really?

Well, you are the one using the most all-caps.

Education is the arena that children are exposed to first

Actually, no. Using the examples you gave, children are acutely aware of who has more toys than them and how they rank in order of who's cute long before they hit school.

Ichthyic beat me - I certainly think that the people who are well-educated are the ones who should control the educational framework and curriculum, yes. I don't presume to tell my mechanic how to fix my car, I don't presume to tell my surgeon how to excise my tumor, and I don't presume to tell my child's teacher how best to handle a class of 20 9-year olds. And I'll thank you not to presume to tell me how to teach my college biology class.

Okay, I will leave, as asked.
You were not asked to leave. You were asked to make a cogent argument or keep quiet about it if you are unable to make a coherent statement. Don't go playing the besieged martyr; there are many different viewpoints expressed on this blog, and those who know how to make their case are engaged with respect.

But it does explain why there are so few women here, which I had wondered about before.
I would guess that part of that is an artifact of the fact that there are still fewer women than men in several fields of science, and part is that there are a lot of usernames that are gender-ambiguous. I personally have seen that when name-calling starts to get misogynistic here that it is usually smacked down pretty quickly. It may not be as gender-safe as some exquisitely sensitive sites, but it is pretty high up there with regard to not being sexist. Vicious insults, yes, that's par for the course here, and if you hang around awhile you'll see that no one is immune from them; it's standard operating procedure. Sexist insults, not so much.

I guess you don't count "shit-kicking moron," "jack-off troll," "try to rise above the shit pit of your surroundings," being called a liar and the injunction to take my inbred ass back to Dogpatch?

Are you reading the same thread I am?

Well, considering that roughly 18 posts were made while I typed mine, most of them yours, no, I'm not reading the same thread you are. But then again, you've done nothing in any of them to contradict the point I made in mine about your exemplary behavior. Um, this is you, right?

Jeff, excuse me, you knock it off. You are educated, well off and work safely in a fucking IVORY TOWER. Are they coming after your job? No. Do they have the power to get you fired? No. Do they control the political climate and the city counsel, senate, congress, state and county government where you LIVE? No. Have they gotten you audited? Have they gotten you fired? Have they gotten you evicted? Have they slashed your tires? If not, STFU. I DO know what I am talking about, sir. I am talking about co-workers and my LIVELIHOOD. I am a WORKING CLASS PERSON and I can't just point and jeer at the fundies, they CONTROL a great deal of my families' resources. I have to work with them and live next to them. They are my BOSSES. Are they yours?

As for "I want the atheists to shut up"--oh cut the victimization narrative, Mr Spoiled College Professor. Want some cheese with that whine?

I think I made a point in my post about how stupid something has to be to permit being called stupid. Was this supposed to be an example?

So, is that your only answer to mine? Or would you like to address how you came in here to show us all how to behave?

Oh, wait, I'm sorry - you said no such thing. You only wanted us not to behave that way. But it's okay for you, it seems. It sure is convincing to me.

Like I said, thanks for the input. But in the interests of saying something positive, I will admit that your posts are entertaining in the amount of hypocrisy and total lack of focus, more than most of the posters here. You have indeed separated yourself from the crowd!

At this point I'm not sure which is more entertaining.

The Eddie Izzard clip

or the comments and ensuing arguments.

And Carlie is quite right about the caustic comments, if you have thin skin or are easily offended, it is best to lurk and not make a target of yourself. Particularly when you enter the comments thread with what amounts to flipping the bird at strangers.

Wow...WTF? I clicked to watch Eddie do his humorous rambling and thought, lessee what the others thought. I was completely lost throughout this entire Daisy exchange. It kind of killed the Izzard buzz but the flame war was spectacular.

My condolences, MAJeff. Your grief is palpable. I wish you the best.

Oooff! That was spectacular, eh?
I too, just wanted to share my joy over good old Eddie, and instead run into a burnt out old hippie chick too frazzled to make a point even if she had a rapier in her claw. And to top it off, she's a Ron Paul supporter!

Keep up the fight, MaJeff. By the time I earned my second degree I was living in the back seat of a twenty year old car and eating out of garbage cans. I'd lost everything of worldly value in my pursuit but I didn't give up.
I eventually earned it all back but I still cringe when I see feet sticking out of a dumpster while the occupant seeks nutrition.

The Daisy Mae's of the world are plenty. And be thankful for it, who else would clean our toilets?

Somebody doesn't know how to read. I voted strategically for Ron Paul. As stated previously, I'm a lefty.

Moses, I hope your "science" isn't like your reading comprehension.

Posted by: Daisy | January 20, 2008 6:13 PM

Actually Daisy, I didn't read your blog very carefully at all. It was such a shit-fest of semi-incoherent thought presented in one of the most amateurish, clown-fest, what-not-to-do layouts I've seen in years that I just gave up and whinged it (that's a pun, there).

My bad. You're not a Paul-bot. You're a hack who has no sense of style or proportion and your website looks like it was composed when you were high on LSD.

Better? :)

Ichthyic beat me

well, you deserved it of course, but if you tell the cops I'll deny everything.

...now get in the kitchen and make me some pie!

:P

Are you sure you wouldn't like a nice biscuit instead, dear? It has a picture of MAJeff on it!

does it have frosting?

Darn, looks like it's too late for a light-hearted comment on biblical weirdness. I was taking a peek at Deuteronomy a couple of days ago. Now, D is by-and-large divided up sensibly - all of the dietary stuff is in one section, all of the family stuff is in another section, and so on. But for whatever reason, the law regarding men and women wearing one another's clothing (bad) is followed by a law outlining proper behavior when finding a bird's nest, complete with baby birds, on the ground (take the babies, leave the mother, and you might live longer). That law is followed by a law regarding the construction of battlements on your home, which is to be done so that people who fall off your roof don't splash blood on your walls.

So was that the miscellaneous section of the Book of D, or what? How much more random can you get? The bible's true weirdness has not yet been plumbed.

depends how much work i'm feeling like putting in the kitchen.

Daisy, lay off the drugs. Do society a favor.

MAJeff #30,
"There are two major classes in society, let's call them faith-heads and free-thinkers. The faith-heads are the dominant class, indeed the prominence of the belief in belief, the continual offense taken when the "common sense" of the existence of god is questioned or ridiculed, points to the hegemonic position that the ruling class's ideas enjoy. Indeed when we note that this "common sense" obscures the nature of reality and justify the maintenance of a system of oppression toward free-thinkers, indeed when we utilize one of the tools of the oppressed class, the tool of ridicule, well, people get very fussy indeed."

I think you are falling into the pitfall of oversimplification.

First, you forget the very crucial grey area. There are of course two opposing classes, as you call them faith heads and free thinkers.

Faith heads visit church regularly, consider religion as (very) important to their lives, and are easily offended by blasphemy. They consider that the sacred scriptures are the evidence which gives them right. If some elements of Science and knowledge contradict the scriptures, then these elements are wrong.
Depending on the studies, they seem to represent approx. 40%-45% of the US population.

Free thinkers, at the other opposite of the spectrum, include a mix of atheists, agnostics, humanists, even probably deists. They are without religion, and feel victimized by the intolerance of the faith heads. On the grounds of tolerance, they claim their right to ridicule religion. They consider that Science, knowledge and reason give them right. The scriptures have no value as far as evidence, apart from historical.
Depending on the studies, they seem to represent approx. 10%-15% of the US population.

This leaves us with a big 40%-50% grey area. They do not visit church regularly, have long questionned some of the core beliefs of religion but still see some value in religion. They are much less vocal about their beliefs or disbelief then the other two groups, but will react, in different ways to the attitudes of the most vocal elements. Some will be offended by blasphemy, some won't. They will call for tolerance, of belief or disbelief and will tend to react in an opposing ways to what they regard as intolerance. When the faith heads manifest themselves in their most odious ways such as the Phelps and Falwells they will be turned away from religion, but, when the free thinkers are viewed as elitists, they will defend religion.

You see, this is the problem :
- the free thinkers are entitled to claim their right to ridicule religion. Not only it is their right, but it also helps to grow their group. Indeed, some of the grey area will move to this group and will abandon religion alltogether.
- but this same attitude will also sway people to the other extreme, and help grow the group of faith heads.

The question is, of course wether the tool of ridicule will sway more people to reason, or faith.

It is still unclear to me; is the tool of ridicule the right tactical tool to solve the mess in which America has put inself into ?

BTW, sorry for my English, wish it were better...

negen, I think that ridicule is an effective tool, at least for young people. They often have peer pressure to go along with the prevailing perception. They may even be ridiculed if they don't believe in superstition. Showing them that their peers are the ridiculous ones is helpful.

Doubters who see the comparison of Jesus to Santa Claus or the Flying Spaghetti Monster probably usually get the message.

BTW, I don't know why you apologize for your English. Only the use of "heads" is a bit off. "Leaders" might be a better word.

Frankly, it has been along time since I have ever given a jesus freak a break.

It is still unclear to me; is the tool of ridicule the right tactical tool to solve the mess in which America has put inself into ?

This has been addressed several times here and elsewhere, although searching for the right threads might take awhile. My view is basically, yes. It's one of many tactical tools. Some people aren't comfortable with ridicule, and they don't need to be. They can be the friendly atheists who don't upset anyone. But someone NEEDS to be calling this crap what it is. At the least, it pushes the extreme edge farther, thereby pulling the middle along with it farther in the direction we want (shifting the frame, I think it's called? :) ) And some people in that gray area will be impacted by seeing people saying straight out that the emperor has no clothes, and in fact is being stupid by walking around naked. We've got to get religion out of this cultural area where it's only discussed in hushed and reverent terms, giving it some magical quality regardless of what's being said. Some of that grey middle might be offended at first, but the shock of having religion so simply denounced might make them actually THINK about it.

Bernarda,
"I think that ridicule is an effective tool, at least for young people."
fair enough, but how temporary is the effect ?

Don't forget that :
a) faith heads have more children than free thinkers
b) Children tend to believe, in majority, what their parents believe
c) when certain people become parents, what they used to consider "funny" changes to become "blasphemous"

Carlie,
"Some of that grey middle might be offended at first, but the shock of having religion so simply denounced might make them actually THINK about it."

nice to see that there are still optimists...

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not disputing the efficacy of ridicule. What I'm questioning, is wether it is the right time for this in America. Some prerequisites have not been met.
In Western Europe, Evolution has been tought as fact for at least 40 years. For example, in France, I Natural Sciences are tought to the 13 year old since as far as I can remember (I'm in my mid 40s), I was surprised to see that the Florida Education board is proposing it, only now.

Moreover, this is a battle (Science classes) that can be won. It has to be.
In this context, Ridicule can be a disruptive element. One that changes the nature of the debate. The faith heads love it ! As we, the free thinkers love it when Phelps and ex Falwells open their mouth.

BTW, love the sketch, and love it that PZ puts all these funny things on his blog...

negentropyeater:

You're trotting out this tired old chestnut yet again? Gee, let's rub each other's nipples and maybe we'll all play nice, eh?
Doesn't work. If you don't believe ME, check your history books. Start with, say, Galileo. Nice, polite discourse got HIM a long way, didn't it?
We need to change the culture here, NOW. The dominant culture needs to see religion as the stupid, crazy shit it is and people need to be laughed at in droves for their stupidity until it becomes the cultural norm to do so, as it is now the cultural norm to go "Oh, let's respect his faith."
It has to start NOW. Not when you 'think' it's a 'good time' but NOW. Huckabee has stated he wants to change the constitution of this country to favor the bible and NO ONE has asked him to get out of the race. NO citizen has stood up to this insane idiot and told him to go the hell home. Our culture needs to change. He SHOULD have been laughed off the stage and until he is, you, your children, all of us, are not safe from these filthy, obsessed morons.
Gee, wouldn't it be nice if we COULD talk to idiots nicely? Wouldn't it be nice that if we could just show them the evidence and they would go, "Gee, you know, that atheist fellow is such a nice guy, maybe all that evidence I've been denying just might be true! I think I'll just renounce the stupid shit I've been following for all my life and grow some brains!)
I've tried being polite for over 40 years! It hasn't worked! This country is only getting worse! After over 40 years of politeness, do you notice who is getting the attention? Hitchens, Harris, Dawkins, etc. Why? Because they are as disgusted as me and are fighting back. The time for REASON is ALWAYS NOW. Always.
If you honestly are naive enough to think you can calmly disucuss science and/or religion with these cretins, look up venomfangX on youtube. Watch all his videos and the replies and his replies. You will see that politeness has NO PLACE in this discussion, only ridicule and derision.

Listen, as an older, properly brought up, professional person I have to emphatically say that ridicule and derision and condescending superior attitudes have no place in civilized discussions.. NO place!!

Eeerrr .. well unless you are discussing beliefs of a fundie.

Fuck there are always exceptions to my rules - fuck!

Say there, negentropyeater,

I apologize for sounding off so harshly. Please understand that that diatribe was NOT a personal attack on you, but about the great frustration I feel over trying to reason with twits.

Guess I should change my brand of crabby flakes cereal.

Eddie Izzard shows us how to mock religious beliefs, the liberal men of Pharyngula show us their misogyny. Nothing new there then.

Logician...
I'm sorry but your foul mouthed arrogance contributes nothing constructive here. I think PZ should treat you as a troll, even if you are on our side.

Hey zzz

If you are going to make blanket accusations it might be nice if you would point out specific posts and explain why you have a problem with them.

If you can't be bothered to do that you are nothing but a troll.

I love me some Izzard, but I have to say this "Daisy" character is much more amusing. Let's recap some highlights!

1. "Allan, I don't feel persecuted at all. Are you kidding?"

cf...

"I am a WORKING CLASS PERSON and I can't just point and jeer at the fundies, they CONTROL a great deal of my families' resources. I have to work with them and live next to them. They are my BOSSES."

"Seriously though, I am probably one of only a few people here who has actually received *real threats* from fundies"

2. "Logician, directing insults at people based on ethnicity or origin is called bigotry."

cf...

"Jeff, your analysis/analogy may be the most amazing hyper-educated-upper-class-American-white-man statement I've heard all day"

3. "No, I don't condescend to children or anyone else."

cf...

"GrrlScientist, you mean like believing in spelling words all cutesy and hip and trendy like "Grrrl"? Good point. I'll make a point not to laugh, but usually I do."

"oh cut the victimization narrative, Mr Spoiled College Professor. Want some cheese with that whine?"

"Ohhh, Mr Logician, you just failed the Turing Test."

"When I referred to the elitists, I referred to the EDUCATED people here. Obviously, not a 14-year-old who can't spell and still resorts to southern jokes. Exempt yourself, okay?"

I often find that the funniest people are those who lack self-awareness. :-)

For pities sake, can't someone post a really funny stand-up routine without people arguing about the tactical advisability of using ridicule as a tool in political debate? It's funny!

When you only see culture as a political tool, you've become part of the problem. Whether a given cultural artefact is politically useful or not is a lousy basis for your aesthetic standards. Funny is its own reward.

We need more comedians and fewer commissars.

"Eddie Izzard shows us how to mock religious beliefs, the liberal men of Pharyngula show us their misogyny. Nothing new there then."
--

Hey zzz

If you are going to make blanket accusations it might be nice if you would point out specific posts and explain why you have a problem with them.

If you can't be bothered to do that you are nothing but a troll.
--

ok, how about these:

Daisy, you must look as nasty as Mammy.

Daisy Mae, coming from the inbreeding capital of America

Hey, Daisy Mae, stop trolling, you're make-up is cracking and you're disappointing your brother.

In case your trainer/handler hasn't noticed, this comment section was about Eddie Izzard, not about inbred hillbillies, so why not go back to making babies with your brother, eh?

Why not just admit who you are and get back to boffing your bro, troll?

quoting a singing slut, now

quote a singer PROUD to be an ignorant bitch.

You reveal your hillbillie-ness, Daisy Mae, reveling in the singing of a woman who enjoys calling herself trailer trash.

Like, wow, babe,

a nasty ole piece of trailer trash

The Daisy Mae's of the world are plenty. And be thankful for it, who else would clean our toilets?
--

I find these statements offensive, reactionary and sexist. This is not the way to show anyone we have it right, no matter who they are. Remember, they aren't the only people reading.

Logician,

VenomfangX doesn't realise that he is doing more harm to his tribe than good. He doesn't need to be ridiculed, because he is already so ridicule (his videos make me laugh so much...). Same with the Phelps, Falwells, Haggards, Craigs, Ratzingers etc... of this world.

"Adding to the ridicule of your adversary, makes YOU look ridicule. When letting him talk is just what you need."

The Dawkins et Al are efficent. No doubt. They are certainly getting a lot of attention, rallying and growing the troops of free thinkers.

But also, it seems to me (correct me if I am wrong) that within the Christian community in the USA, the pendulum is swinging back to the more moderate view, and that the fundamentalists are losing traction.
Now, and especially when Bush is away (next president will be a moderate Christian, either Mc Cain, Obama or Clinton), a lot of work has to be done to bridge the gap between the different communities, excluding the fundamentalists, who are, by definition intolerant.
Free thinkers can play a huge role in this, but not if they are perceived by the moderate Christians as intolerant and elitists.

I think this is the key issue we need to face, as free thinkers :
how do we revendicate our rights, without appearing intolerant nor elitists to the more moderate Christians.
We will appear intolerant and elitist to the fundamentalists whatever we say, but there is not the battle to be won.

Now is the time for this, and to put in the drawers statements such as "Religion is stupid, its batshit insane". Because that won't help to get the more moderate Christians on our side.

Look, the grey area I'm talking about in my earlier post (#91) are the moderate Christians. And they are a huge chunk of the population. Would you rather work with them, or against them, to reduce forever the lunacy of the fundamentalists ?
And no, working with them doesn't mean abandoning Science and reason, being a Christian apologist, it just means bridging gaps, having discussions, expressing opinions, and remaining polite and not considering oneself superior.
In otherwords, being "educated" (funny that in Spanish, being "polite" is the same word as being "educated" = Educado)...

Why didn't you call out that one poster?

Was it because that would not back up your blanket statement?

Hypocrite.

Dunc,
1. Yes, it's funny.
2. Comments come as they do. Noone obliges you to read all of them.
3. Culture is not ONLY a political tool, but it sometimes is. And a really efficient one. That's what is so beautiful about it, it has aesthetical and useful value.

Spurge,
?

"Eddie Izzard shows us how to mock religious beliefs, the liberal men of Pharyngula show us their misogyny. Nothing new there then."

Well, certainly not *all* the men of Pharyngula, since those quotes are all from one guy, but liberal men and misogyny are bosom buddies. 'Round here, though, misogyny generally gets slapped down pretty quickly.

negen, I disagree with you and agree with logician. One has been Mr. Nice Guy too long. Not me personally because for years I have told jesus freaks where to stuff their sky pilot.

As long as one gives even minimal acceptance to their superstition, people will take it as that, acceptance.

The jesus freaks never give a break to people of other religions, but especially non-believers. I don't believe in the idea of a "moderate" xian. What? How can one be moderately stupid or ignorant?

Politically, it is like the calls for "compromise" and "bi-partisanship" by some wimp Democrats. Those are the last thing we need now. Democrats need to take a stand and tell the Republicans to F-off, but don't hold your breath for it to happen. That is what the Rethugs have done to the Dems for years. Now it is payback time.

Democrat politicians largely don't have the courage of their convictions, in the rare cases they have any - convictions that is.

Negentropyeater:

Haven't been paying attention, have we? Do you think EVERY catholic was a rabid beast lusting to gut gays during the inquisition? Of course not. But the extremists RULED. BECAUSE the 'moderates' were chickenshits afraid to challenge the church.

As it is today. Any 'moderate' xians NOT ACTIVELY working to STOP their own extremists are as guilty of the crimes of killing doctors over misunderstood idiot book, so sorry, bible, passages as the extremists. After all they believe THE SAME THINGS. Where the hell do you think the extremists get their info? From the same book the 'moderates' read! Same with any 'moderate' muslims.

And maybe we need some brushing up on some science texts and an idiot book, sorry, bible or two. Truth+superstitious bullshit=bridge? It ain't gonna happen. They are irreconcilable. Try grease, try shoehorns, try superglue. They CANNOT coexist. They deny each other, by simple fact that one proves the other to be pure bullshit and the other will not allow for any truth whatsoever.

As long as we allow the cancer to fester, it WILL break out and eventually consume everything. 'Moderates' ALLOW extremists. As long as 'moderates' are allowed their stupid crazy shit, extremists WILL rise from their midst and strike out. Haven't you read ANY history?

'Moderates.' Good grief!

Whoever posted at 104 was someone else using zzz. Not me.

They did set some of the misogyny out there, and no, it was NOT slapped down. The opposite. It was left to stand as part of the pile on. Now there's a whole fresh new pile on developing against the few of us who point it out. All the men failing to condemn it are complicit.

Any 'moderate' xians NOT ACTIVELY working to STOP their own extremists are as guilty of the crimes of killing doctors over misunderstood idiot book, so sorry, bible, passages as the extremists.

I'm sure logician and his supporters will fail to see what is so hypocritical about this. Male logic seemingly only works on certain things, and barely at all even then.

"Male logic seemingly only works on certain things, and barely at all even then."

What exactly is male logic?

Didn't you just insult all males?

Hypocrite.

You're painting with an overly broad brush, there, zzz. Let's go over your examples:

Daisy, you must look as nasty as Mammy.
Racist more than sexist, but about as horrid a comment as I've seen here, and the poster should indeed be ashamed of himself.

Daisy Mae, coming from the inbreeding capital of America
Disparaging towards the south, but not at all sexist.

Hey, Daisy Mae, stop trolling, you're make-up is cracking and you're disappointing your brother.
A little sexist, maybe, but much more "southist" than sexist.

In case your trainer/handler hasn't noticed, this comment section was about Eddie Izzard, not about inbred hillbillies, so why not go back to making babies with your brother, eh?
Again, against the south, not women in particular.

Why not just admit who you are and get back to boffing your bro, troll?
Same.

quoting a singing slut, now
quote a singer PROUD to be an ignorant bitch.
Those two I'll give you. Slut and bitch are incredibly misogynist terms used in that way, and should have been slapped down.

You reveal your hillbillie-ness, Daisy Mae, reveling in the singing of a woman who enjoys calling herself trailer trash.
Like, wow, babe,a nasty ole piece of trailer trash
Nope. Trailer trash is an equal opportunity slur.

The Daisy Mae's of the world are plenty. And be thankful for it, who else would clean our toilets?
Class slur, not sexist slur.

So, just under half of your examples were actually sexist slurs, and as pointed out before, mostly came from one person. That doesn't make this a misogynist place. Especially since, if you notice the paucity of different posters, it looks like not a lot of people are paying attention to this thread.
But "male logic"? Seriously?

"All the men failing to condemn it are complicit."

That is a depressingly stupid statement, as well as being a false one.

So, zzz, are you complicit in absolutely every bad thing in the world you fail to condemn?

Okay, kiddies, some education.
Believe it or not, it's a real world out here, as you'll discover when you get out of school.
Check out Daisy's site at daisydeadair.blogspot.com. You will find some interesting things out: One, she hates your educated asses. Two, she's an old hippie (her words, you over sensitive politically correct weenies) who's so confused she really DOES think quoting Gretchen Wilson is really, like, so coooool. Three, she's proud of her 'plurality' of ideas, meaning she couldn't trace a thought with an etch-a-sketch. She deserves no respect for interrupting here and saying her usual class and education hating tripe. That's why she got her ignorant butt flamed.

As for her Gretchen Wilson quote: I realize you all have probably not heard of this 'singing slut' (her own words, pc weenies) and I'm happy for you about that. I've had the misfortune of being exposed to this trailer trash bitch (again, you over-sensitive pc weenies, Gretchen Wilson's OWN words about herself; life just isn't fair, is it? How can you save the world with pc speak when the very women themselves use those damned sexist terms? Oh, yeah, I remember, she's a victim and needs to be educated by: guess who? You who are so pc sensitive that you know better than her how she should speak about herself).

You will find when you get away from the safety of school that it's a nasty, hard world full of people who want to do you, take you and use you for all you're worth. And the very first people to do that are the lying, manipulative weenies who are doing it all in the name of political correctness.
The politically correct aren't interested in truth, only in control, which is WHY Daisy lipped off on this site. I have enjoyed this site for a long time and it irritates me when someone whose LIFE seems devoted to thwarting just the sort of thing this site represents slithers in and tries to screw things up.
If that's a problem for you to watch, then by all means stay in school. We don't need you in the real world.

Logician, take some meds and calm down. You're getting froth on the computer screen.

"PC", as you term it, is not about control, it's about not shitting on entire groups of people for no good reason, particularly when reinforcing negative stereotypes. The terms slut and bitch are in a state of reclamation; lots of women use them as proud terms, as it appears this singer may have been. However, they are still also used as slurs, promoting the idea that being sexually active or bossy are really bad traits for women to have, and therefore it's pretty dodgy for them to be used out of context and/or by people who may be suspected of using them in the traditional sense, and not at all a surprise when people interpret them that way.

No matter how benighted a person is, I tend to think that a little courtesy is not unreasonable, if for no other reason than it reflects well on you. I realize that there tends to be a fair bit of rough-and-tumble here, but seriously...

He's even got a Bronowski reference in there. Well done, Eddie.

"All the men failing to condemn it are complicit."

100% Agreed. If you don't speak out against bigotry, you are complict in supporting it.

"So, zzz, are you complicit in absolutely every bad thing in the world you fail to condemn?"

My goodness, what a stupid question. If you come face to face with it and fail to object, then of course you are complict. We're not talking about what you are not witness to, obviously.

Logician,

in absolute, you are right. But you are hoping for the impossible. Sometimes, to win in the the long term, you have to swallow your pride.
It's called pragmatism. You might hate it, despise it, feel frustrated by it, becuase you are just interested with the truth. I understand that, so do I.
You'll say, of but we've swallowed it for too long ! And I accept that.
But, I'm telling you what I believe, ie that it will be much easier for America to get rid of its nasty habit of inventing new religious fundamentalist lunacies
(such as and not limited to, Scientology, Latter Day Saints, Born Agains, TeleEvangelists, Megachurches, Godtubes, Intelligent Design, Creation Science, I mean you guys are sooo inventive, it just doesn't stop)
when there is first a move to moderation and tolerance, which seems to have been so absent of the political discourse in your country for the last 30 years or so.

Ah, politeness and education don't work, well that's what you think because I haven't seen much of it in the USA for the last 30 years. It's all about polarization, giving voice to the extremes, sensationalism, exceptionalism, reaction, counterreaction... And you're surprised it doesn't work !

All you are suggesting is just more of the same, and that is for sure a recipie for disaster.
The USA is a VERY large nation, with many different views, many different lobby groups pulling in all kinds of opposite directions. What has held it together, uptill now, is its constitution, its sense of unity, and only moderation, religious tolerance (all faiths and non faiths) will keep it together.

You don't want to see another civil war in this country do you ?

"All the men failing to condemn it are complicit."

100% Agreed. If you don't speak out against bigotry, you are complict in supporting it.

"So, zzz, are you complicit in absolutely every bad thing in the world you fail to condemn?"

My goodness, what a stupid question. If you come face to face with it and fail to object, then of course you are complict. We're not talking about what you are not witness to, obviously.

So, is grey black or white? Doesn't seem like you've left us much choice in the matter so you might as well tell us now.

G - your response is to vague to make a point. What is it that you think I'm deciding for you? Do you disagree that if you stand by and allow bigotted comments to pass without objection that your silence will be deemed as agreement?

Gee, I thought all the comments on this thread would be about the humor in the video. Ouch! Why would someone just jump in to be offended? There are plenty of other places to go with your nose out of joint.

I love those evil pilot fish, and "this is how a fish would walk, if he's English"

MaJeff, I have been reading your posts, and been to your blog, and I understand your reaction to Daisy. I'm an old guy, but my first job out of college was the "dumb mechanic" at Dy-Dee Diaper service in Coolidge Corner. (Long since replaced by condos)

Those people were very nice to me, and let me leave with almost no notice when the call came "Are you still interested in that substitute teaching job?"

32 years later, I'm still at it. You keep at it too.

Betty @ #124

I'm simply pointing out that silence does not always imply agreement with a particular point of view. On the internet, it may, since there's often very little in terms of real consequence that can happen to people who are more or less anonymous. In real life there are several times I can think of off-hand where silence is preferable to speaking up, even though you disagree -- especially in cases of drastic power imbalance.

But, since you think (for instance) prisoners are obliged to mouth off to their torturers -- or that if they don't mouth off, they agree with being tortured -- perhaps you'd tell me again: Is grey black, or is grey white?

Negentropyeater:

Perhaps my overheated rhetoric is causing the point to be missed.
I suggest reading Sam Harris' "End of Faith," as his ability to state what I'm trying to say is of course, far better, which is why he is world renown, and I'm world unkown. His book will help you to understand where extremists come from and why 'moderates' are not any better, in the long run.

A shorter piece can be read here:
"Faith is corrosive to the human mind. If someone genuinely believes that it is right to believe things without reason or evidence then they are open to every kind of dogma, whim, coercion, or dangerous infectious idea that's around. If someone is convinced that it is acceptable to base their beliefs on what is written in an ancient book, or what some teacher tells them they must believe, then they will have no true freedom of thought; they will be trapped by their faith into inconsistency and untruths because they are unable to throw out false ideas when evidence against them comes along."
('We of little faith', Sue Blackmore, Guardian Magazine)
No matter how large our country, no matter what epoch, reason is anathema to religion, PERIOD. There cannot now, nor ever, be any compromise between a person who believes in fairy tales and a person who uses evidence for their worldview.
It's time to stop pretending otherwise, and it's time to stop granting the special status of social acceptance to these neurotic fools.
I left the field of teaching because I could no longer tolerate people looking straight at evidence, deny it, and curse me in front of their children for teaching it. So no, education doesn't work, when they refuse to be taught! And yeah, I'm cranky about this, I've watched the field of science teaching go straight to shit because of these mush-headed morons and I'm damned sick and tired of it.
I also suggest you check out a few more American history books: political discourse in America has NEVER been civil, contrary to your opinion. Some of the politicians of our earlier era said things that wouldn't simply be considered politically incorrect, they would be considered duel-worthy. The impression that our political discourse has ever been civil all the time, or even the majority of the time, is erroneous.
And just for laughs, check out Annette Benning in "Mars Attacks". She's a perfect example of this too old brand of 'let's all just try to get along and believe what we want to, okay, sweety?" She nailed it right to the wall and is a joy to watch.

Logician,

... and I fundamentally disagree with Harris.

I agree with E.O.Wilson, there is no evidence whatsoever that we can turn all humans to start suddenly behaving as rational, non superstitious beings. None. On the contrary, we have more than 50,000 years of evolution behind ourselves where superstitious brain function was a naturally selected adaptive advantage. And now what, we have humans like you, and me, a small % in all who reject superstitious beliefs and use reason and knowledge to function. What % ? 5% ? Science is not even 300 year old and suddenly everybody is going to start reasoning from scientific evidence. Because we want it that way ? Bull****

We should thrive at reducing the epistemological differences between reason and faith, you cannot force people to suddenly become rational, this will be a slow process.

The more we oppose reason and faith, the more we turn people away from Science. This is an obvious fact. And this is what is happening in the USA (not in Western Europe, where there is much more cooperation between the two than you might think).

Harris, Hitchens and the like are just there to exacerbate differences, and they are not even scientists.

Please note, I see people like Dawkins and Dennett moving gradually in a different direction.

Look, when I was studying, 25 years ago, I was an activist. In France. I've participated in many debates of the types you are having now in the USA. I've seen what works, and doesn't work. Debating with fundies is a waste of time. Having constructive discussions with moderate Christians is what works.
As long as you refuse to understand that a fundie is not the same as a moderate, you are going to continue hiting a brick wall. And make matters worse.
Make sure that you have many debates with moderates. Show the example, cultivate it. You have everything to gain from it.
Make people see that non belief is a respectable position, that one can be a moral individual, that you respect other opinions, as long as the other opinion is itself respecting your own (hence moderate).
Don't try to prove that you are right, and the other one wrong, just try to shine a positive light on what it is to be a free thinker.
You've said it right, in America, the issue was never civil. Hence the result. Maybe it's time to start adopting a different technique, don't you think so ?
You keep saying, things haven't worked so far, so let's get more aggressive.
Well, that's a recipie for disaster my friend.

Wow, talk about one derailed thread.