So Heath Ledger, the young actor, is dead of unknown causes. I don't know much about him, I did not have any kind of personal interaction with him so I don't need to know much about him — I liked some of his movies, he was young, it's tragic to see a life ended so early.
Those demented ghouls at Westboro Baptist Church have a different point of view, though.
It's just a lunatic ranting his hate, but that last paragraph is fascinating.
Heath Ledger is now in Hell, and has begun serving his eternal sentence there — beside which, nothing else about Heath Ledger is relevant or consequential.
That epitomizes the problem, I think. There is a kind of sliding scale of belief: most of us value our lives to some degree, and consider how we spend our three score and ten to be important; then there are people who attach some degree of importance on an afterlife they've imagined, and consider this hypothetical eternity to be a matter of concern. Atheists have the scale pegged way over to the left and see this little slice of time we have as all we have, and therefore the only thing we have to make work. Most religious people have the dial turned up a little to the right — they are clearly operationally secular, spending most of their time on work and family, and socking away a little Sunday prayer time for an anticipated and wholly delusional Heaven. We can all live with that.
But then there are these wackos like Fred Phelps who have the dial turned so far to the right that they place a higher priority in their fantasies about what they'll be doing after they're dead over what they're doing with their life right now. That's where religion becomes a great evil, where it destroys lives and compels people to commit acts that are materially insane, but make great logical sense to people infected with the idea that there is an eternity of consequence for trivial transgressions against a shared belief.
This is why we have to strike right at the root of religious belief. It's an unfounded expectation of a magic post-mortem resuscitation in a new universe with different rules that has the potential to completely change the equation about how we live our lives in this brief span — and not for the better, as proponents pretend — and to those of us who care about our lives, our world, and our legacy rather than our imagined ghost-existence, that matters.
P.S. Note the inconsistency in Phelps' position, too. If what Heath Ledger did in his life is such a tiny, irrelevant fragment of god's great plan for his existence, why is his role in a movie Fred Phelps didn't like so important that it dictates an eternity of pain?
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Of course, the late Heath Ledger wasn't a homosexual, he simply played a homosexual character in a movie. But that's enough, I guess. So far, I haven't found the Biblical verse that condemns playing a character in a movie.
Hah! I just e-mailed a link to PZ because I couldn't find a thread to attach it to... then the very next time I check here, here it is. I suppose I should've had more patience!
"Thou shalt not portray herders of sheep that lay with each other, nor wayfinders of gold, for such is an abomination in the sight of the Lord's most righteous followers, who are only pleased by the warrior of roads showing torture and degradation of His Most Holy Son." Medved 12: 36-38
Remind me to show up at Phelp's funeral to protest his reprehensible, vile life.
Sickening.
He's just further ensuring that I will be there at Mr. Phelps funeral to defecate on his tombstone.
If the fate of one's eternal soul depends on which characters one has played in movies, what'll happen when Anthony Hopkins dies? He's been St Paul, CS Lewis, Adolf Hitler and Hannibal Lecter.
I understand that his body is being sent to Australia for burial. Will the whole church go? Can they be persuaded to stay? What a vile group.
Gawd. Sounds like hate speech to me, the irony of which brings a smile and a tear. Let us not waste time thinking of how many times our precious saviour spoke of love and kept company with whores and sinners. Let's just drag out some good ol' fashion' Leviticus-style hate! The hypocrisy is like a ton of bricks.
What's worse, these things inspire such a deep anger and hatred in *me*. I can't stand the injustice of these people being protected by free speech and assembly laws to demonstrate unambiguous bigotry and hatred in the faces of the mourning. Love your neighbor as yourself, unless your neighbor is not like you. Wait, is that how it goes?
I just find this completely sickening. This makes even less sense to me than when they picket the funerals of service men and women because the army allows homosexuals in its ranks.
I also think that it is worth noting that the bible doesn't say anything about women lying with other women. But then I guess that is because God is a guy and like most of us hot blooded men has no problems with lesbians.
Mr. Phelps may win yet another moron of the month award.
Where will this funeral be?
Ledger died in New York, he worked in Hollywood, California, but he's from Australia.
If it's California, I suspect the governor, who is also a member of the film community, might have something to say about the presence of the Phelps clan.
Last time I saw pics of Fred Phelps and that daughter of his ... Whew! Hate leaves its mark. In every sense of the word, these are some seriously ugly people.
...
This is kinda weird: Streaming video from outside the funeral chapel in New York where Heath Ledger's body is supposedly located. The story says a viewing will take place sometime today. People are setting up cameras and there's a line gathering.
http://www.tmz.com/2008/01/24/tmz-is-live-at-frank-e-campbell-funeral-c…
I'll go way out on a limb with this one.
People who can't tell the difference between real life and stories in an ancient book also can't tell the difference between real life and a recent film.
Seriously though let us not forget that although Phelps is a nutjob it is the belief system that allows people
1. the concept of a place of eternal torture
2. the twisted mindset to think this is justice
3. the acceptance of a blantantly immoral concept
It is a demeaning and reprehensible belief that makes people not love God but rather be afraid not to love him.
Ahhh...just showing those Christian "virtues" of love and forgiveness again.
And what about this a-hole?
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/01/23/gibson-mocks-ledger/
I think it's time to protest the sponsors of that show.
PZ, you're right. It is the premise of 'pie in the sky somewhere' that is used to 'justify' all sorts of injustice and viciousness in this vale of tears.
But I don't really believe that's what motivates the leadership that makes these sorts of arguments. They aren't looking to heaven when they push their personal hells on the rest of us. Rather, they are looking to reign in their personal hell right now, rather than to serve in heaven. It's about power, whether we're talking about a patriarchy that wants to keep women subservient, or a pathological case like Phelps, who lives to bully those around him into lockstep agreement, or else.
Heath Ledger wasn't even gay as far as I can tell. He is divorced with a kid among other things. I doubt whoever played Luke Skywalker in Star Wars was really a Jedi either. And whoever plays Henry VIII in Shakespeare isn't really the king of England either. Fictional movies are well, fictional. OTOH, no one expects thought from Westboro Baptists.
Heath probably died of an accidental drug overdose of prescription sleeping pills. He was known to have severe insomnia and to be taking sedatives.
Westboro Baptist is officially broke. While they rarely violate criminal laws, their activities can fall under civil torts, such as torture, mental cruelty, harrassment, slander, libel, and so on. IIRC, someone sued them for disrupting a funeral and had a multimillion dollar judgement against them. As usual collecting is another matter. But you can be sure there are liens against any tangible property Westboro and Phelps owns.
Well, now that this is out of the way, maybe Fred and his inbreds can get back to hating our men and women in uniform.
Phelps obviously doesn't realise this, but Ledger didn't really stick his lad into Jake Gyllenhaal. But you'd think that God, being omniscient and all, would have known this and let Ledger stay out of hell.
Oh, these morons! Why can't anybody do something against them??
Where is Heath Ledger's funeral people have asked?
It will be held in Perth, Western Australia, a city I had the priveledge to live for a while. Perth is the most isolated (state) capital city in the world (and a wonderfull place I might add).
I really can't see Fredo going through with his promise, unless he's got some Aussie goons we don't know about. However, if gets the gall to fly halfway around the world to behave like an idiot, I swear I'll do my own Freedom Gaurd imitation and block him from getting within 50km of the casket.
But let's not forget: While it's big news when these yokels show up to protest, they rarely do! When Interstate 35W fell in Minnesota, they got a lot of ink for calling Minnesota the "land of Sodom" and announcing they'd be picketing funerals of the victims. They never bothered to show up. Seems like they just leverage big news for their own perverse gain.
I had the, er, experience of interviewing Phelps when he came to FW to protest a production of the Laramie Project. Let me tell you, he is creeeepy. Very tall and thin, and although his eyes don't glow red, they are small, beady and intense. It almost looks like they do.
His daughter is the WBC lawyer, and she's a treat to talk too, let me tell you...
@Markus (#19):
Because they are free to be utter, dreadful, hideous morons and hate-mongers.
All the Phelps-oids offend me deeply. Fortunately for both them and me (and quite unlike a seemingly rather large contingent of Muslims all over the world) offense is not sufficient to silence.
Let them continue to demonstrate so clearly what it is to be so deeply religious. But also let's don't let anyone get away with the "true Scotsman" argument to distance themselves from the Phelps clan. It's the same bible after all.
Who wants to wager that when the elder Phelps does finally peg out his funeral will be held in secret well away from public property that the throngs of folks we all know are saving up for the trip out to protest the little fecker's funeral won't have the opportunity.
Bullies of all strips are the "dish it out but can't take it" types.
If Heath is going to be buried in Australia, and these guys have the follow-through they say they do, it would be wonderful if Australia had some convenient anti hate speech laws they could be arrested under.
Seriously, Australia, take one for the team and lock the mouth-breathing scum away.
My only hope is that when they do come out to picket Batman will swoop down out of nowhere and rock some fundie ass.
To be fair to Phelps, that's not inconsistant if you're a biblical literalist. Handing out enormous punishments for trivial transgressions sure sounds like the biblical God to me. Just goes to show Phelps reads his Bible.
rabbit @9,
they picket the funerals of service men and women because the army allows homosexuals in its ranks
It doesn't, actually, if it's the US army you're talking about.
Not knowingly, anyway. As I understand the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy, you can be gay and a soldier so long as you refrain from all gay sex and are absolutely, 100% closeted. If for any reason they learn that you're gay, out you go. DADT was a "liberalisation" only in the sense that the military no longer actively tries to discover which of its personnel are gay, the better to eject them. (Officially, that is; I've read that some commanders still try to ferret out gays who are in compliance with DADT. OTOH, I've also read that some others will tacitly tolerate soldiers they know to be gay because they don't want to lose a valued troop.)
I don't think Phelps disrupts soldiers' funerals to protest DADT. At least, that would be only one very small point in his overall complaint. SFAIK he disparages dead soldiers because he thinks their deaths in Iraq are divine punishment of the entire American nation for not hating fags sufficiently.
BTW, most armies I know of don't think homosexuality makes one ineligible to serve. But the US military shouldn't feel too bad. I'm sure its policy is at least as enlightened as that of, say, the army of Mugabe's Zimbabwe.
"Ledger wasn't even gay" comments miss the point. To Phelps' twisted mind, it makes no difference whether a gay is real or fictional. Any sympathetic portrayal of a gay man is grounds for enternal damnation.
OTOH, perhaps I give Phelps too much credit, with a mind that hateful he probably can't tell the difference between fiction and reality.
Phelps' death is the only reason that I wish Hell were real. The look on old Phred's face when he realizes where he would get to spend eternity after death would be priceless.
SeanH wrote (#26):
But you forget the point: Heath Ledger isn't gay, he only played gay in a movie. Apparently Phelps cannot tell fact from fiction!
- pwe
I don't think there should be protests when Phelps finally kicks the bucket...
I think there should be a massive party in his hometown... preferrably with as many gay/bi/trannys as possible. Rather than a moment of silence, there should be a massive kiss-in followed by 6 hours of non-stop thumping dance music.
How long do you think it will be before Phelps comes out of the closet? We've been waiting.
Steve_C @ #31
Someone should re-route the San Francisco pride parade through Kansas that year...
When we atheists bring up the fact that religion provides a free pass to spout bigotry and hate-filled ideology, the moderately religious (or what I like to call functional atheists) are quick to claim that bigotry would exist even without religion. However, they fail to realize that, working on the theory that the bible contains important, truthful revelations, the WBC cannot be considered a group of bigots but rather crusaders for righteousness. There is no difference between a moderate going to church and the WBC hating "fags." God supposedly orders both; we know it's bullshit, but anyone praying at night is barred from commenting on the stupidity.
In a sense, Phelps and his band of Fredheads are an easy target. They just say what most evangelicals and fundamentalists believe. Billy Graham, Rick Warren, William Dembski, Mike Huckabee all believe exactly the same thing--God tortures unbelievers for infinity.
While they may not show the perverse lack of human decency of Fred & Co. at funerals, they believe that. e.g., most Holocausts victims went from a bad situation to an infinitely worse situation when they died in the gas chambers. They may hem and haw about it, but it is part of their core beliefs.
What is odd though, is that even though their dogma about original sin suggests otherwise, they can't believe God would actually send children to hell (which for them is post-zygotic development through some ill-defined age of accountability)--God can't possibly be that mean! So they make some very strange loopholes, such as for ancients who never would know anything about Jesus or hell--then they say things like, well, um, it's for God to decide (mutter, mutter) based on how they lived (which is also antithetical to their dogma).
Of course FreddyP is a horse of a different color. He may well believe that God will fry us all--and our little dogs too! Just one odd thing about Phelps, who is a super-duper-ultra-Calvinist. Since the game was over it before it began (predestination), why should he give a rat's ass about what is happening to anyone else? The deal is done. It does make his behavior even more evil and infantile in that he seems to be saying: "Nyah nyah nyah--God loves me, he hates you."
Hey, it's not just that. It's the all evils of America, which includes gay marriage ( which isn't so evil and demented after all), or abortion, or voting Democrat, or not kow-towing to their religious beliefs.
If moderates like the Westboro Baptists think like this then goodness what the extremists are thinking.
I cried when my mum called me after having seen Brokeback Mountain : she said, I loved this movie, now I understand better the way you feel.
Phelps hated the idea that so many people reacted the way my mother did.
Phelps needs to be put in a psychiatric penitenciary before it's too late, ie before his interpretation of Leviticus finally convinces him that "they should be put to death".
It's not just the fundamentalists or conservative Christians. It's virtually the entire religion with the moderates and "liberals" just tending to avoid the question or invent fantastical explanations why the plain-on-its-face teachings are contrary to the wishy-washiness they express. You touched on this further down in your post regarding children, but I've seen it (at times) across the spectrum for all sorts of unbelievers.
What I see as the difference I see between the right and the left is the expression of glee from the right/conservatives about the suffering those who don't follow their exact brand of Christianity will receive for all of eternity. Whereas the Left/Liberals in Christianity seem to be a bit more put out by it and will, at times, invent all kinds of fantasy stories about their religion to escape it's painful truth.
Kind of makes the Jesus is the only way a little less tenable doesn't it?
nothing else about Heath Ledger is relevant or consequential.
Oh, maybe to Heath it's relevant and consequential. Doesn't mean a goddamed thing to me. Now, if Heath came back and told us about it, now, that would be something!
As much as I despise Phelps and everything he stands for, I think all he and his little cult want is attention. And the attention they're paid, the more they win.
I don't think they're winning any converts with their antics - and we detractors are just giving ourselves ulcers worrying about it.
We'd all be better off if everyone could just take the old internet adage to heart: "don't feed the trolls".
On Heath Ledger: he had so much potential and his true talent was only beginning to be tapped. After a schlocky start, seemingly doomed to teenage-heart-throb-dom, he really started taking on some demanding roles (Brokeback, most notably) in the last few years. It's sad to think what he might have done with another fifty.
@ #25--freaking hilarious image. Someone should flash animate that.
Like Andy, I also met the guy in person once; took photos and watched him get interviewed by a local TV reporter in a closed room. I think he was mostly trying to hit on the reporter.
He kept referring to being old, that he'll pass soon and be with God, and wanting his children to take up his mantle. He spoke in a confident but sweet voice, and it would've been sweet had his mantle not been what it is. He does look like a scarecrow, though.
Honestly, though, isn't anyone else kind of burnt out on Phelps? I mean, this is a fairly obvious grab for attention, as was protesting troop funerals. It's like hating gays wasn't the same controversy it used to, so he had to take it up a notch--and that's what I see here, too.
I'd like to say it enrages me, but it doesn't. If anything, I think it helps the gay community a little--hopefully some of the disgust leveled toward Phelps might bleed by proxy over to other, less vitriolic, anti-gay preachers.
Not that I approve even in the slightest what he says, or when he disrupts a funeral. I think I've just been desensitized; it doesn't piss me off enough that I wish to defecate on things, remove others' free speech rights, or exclaim things like "can't somebody do something?!"
He's crazy, his whole family is crazy, and the best thing to do, since they're not gathering followers as far as I've seen, is to ignore them, and let them pass into obscurity after their spokesidiot dies.
PS--I don't think it matters to Phelps and Co. that Ledger isn't actually gay--he performed gay acts (even if it was only kissing another man), and, in their eyes, promoted homosexuality by starring in a sympathetic movie.
Patrick--
Beat me to it on the attention thing.
Speaking of which, check out what happens when you cuss out Jesus at a roast.
I think that last line does more to indicate the WBC's failure not only at their professed faith but also basic humanity than they realize.
I didn't personally know Heath Ledger, never met him, and enjoyed his movies. I knew he got picked on a bit after Brokeback came out, and I was REALLY looking forward to his depiction of the Joker. In the way that some celebrity news is unavoidable, I somehow picked up that he'd been divorced and had a very young daughter. I didn't even know he'd passed until I was at dinner that night and my server told me. I was just shocked, possibly because I possess that most elusive quality of humanity, empathy for others, even to the point where I have nothing in common with them and do not know them personally.
The poor man at some point realized he'd be a better and happier person if he made his living pretending to be someone else, and I think that's laudable. Not everyone can do that or has the courage to follow a dream. The fact that he wasn't behaving like a jerkoff celebrity further made him seem like a basically good person, and I read that he had frequent visits with his daughter and behaved like a proud and doting father.
I think it's quite sad that Phelps and his merry band of assholes had to go out of their way to undermine another person's attempts to be decent because he acted gay in a FILM.
I'm with whoever said they wished they could believe there really was a hell, if only to know that Fred Phelps and the WBC were headed there.
Moses,
"Whereas the Left/Liberals in Christianity seem to be a bit more put out by it and will, at times, invent all kinds of fantasy stories about their religion to escape it's painful truth."
What a vile, despicable, righteous piece of S**T !
Sorry if I lose my temper, but as an activist member of the Gay community for the last 25 years, I would rather have people bend their religion and do the right thing,
then you going on about trying to prove to them that the only way to accept homosexuality is to abandon their religion alltogether.
Because I know what the result of this can be. It cost me a broken leg and two months reeducation.
These words of this Phelps hatemonger are so filled will pain and anger its heartbreaking. What must it be like to be inside his mind or within earshot of the hate that spills out of him? It is truly mind-boggling to me that people like Phelps find so much wrong with the world and the best thing they can come up with to make it better is to protest the funeral of an actor that was once in a movie that portrayed, so called, evil. I'm at a loss.
Why can't they pool their collective, we'll call it energy and help themselves and others. Work to help people around them, food & clothing drives, building low income housing and community center for kids, neighborhood cleanups and beautification projects. But I guess that doesn't give them as much satisfaction as thinking about gay people. Hmmm.
Uber said: Kind of makes the Jesus is the only way a little less tenable doesn't it?
Ah, they are crafty about this sort of thing. They'll say that God changes the rules over time (dispensationalism, as an extreme form of this thinking), sorta like to mix things up and keep things interesting. Different strokes for different folks.
As a odd example of this sort of belief system, Tim LaHaye's (CEO of Rapture Inc.) most recent "novel" has any child born in the post-apocalyptic millennial era instantly die and go to hell at age 100 (kind of an extended adolescence) if they have not acknowledged Jesus (who is now king of Terra) as Messiah.
If they would only spend this kind of mental effort figuring out how to feed the poor and care for the sick. As if!
pwe @#30
David's right about that a couple of comments up. Phelps and his ilk believe acceptance or tolerance of homosexuality is sinful in and of itself. Just appearing in a film that promotes acceptance and moves society even a little toward greater tolerance makes him a sinner in their minds.
This is, of course, sickening and outrageous, but the Westboro Baptist Church are only really interested in publicity. They want you to publicise them, PZ, by reproducing their hate on your blog. Don't rise to the bait; don't do their work for them.
Actually, Phelps would seem to understand the nature of eternity (as defined by their Christian faith) better than most Christians I know of. After all, when you look at our lives from the perspective of eternity, how much of relevance and consequence can we do in a life that's come and gone in the equivalent of less than a nanosecond?
If Christians really had the conviction of their beliefs, the *only* thing that would matter to them would be whether a person was destined for heaven or hell. So Phelps has right, for once, and exposes how warped a Christian's perspective on life (on Earth) would be if more Christians understood the logical consequences of their irrational faith.
These people are human filth! I find absolutely nothing redeeming in the interpretation of Old Testament dogma that they espouse as revealed truth!
I'm often told by Christians that these SCUMBAGS do not represent 'true Christianity' or what it means to be a 'Christ follower'. Really? If you really mean what you say then you'd better damned well start shouting it from the roof tops! These monsters read the same Bible you do and yet they come up with vitriolic and intolerant views such as what's pictured above?
If you truly are a 'Christ followers' then it is incumbent upon you, the Body of Christ, to be in the fore front denouncing filth like this as loudly, vocally and vehemently as you can. Otherwise, people like me will continue to see all 'Christ Followers' as a monolith of intolerance and supporters of repugnant morality.
I don't advocate the demise of anyone. But these people are SLIME not worthy of the oxygen they breathe. I can say with out fear the the world would be far better off without them.
All that said, I can't help but think that many of these purported 'Christ followers' secretly in their hearts concur whole-heartedly with the judgment of these evil bastards at Westboro Baptist Church. What other conclusion can I draw? Where is the outrage? Where is the solidarity with the loved ones of the people whose funerals these assholes have picketed at? I think, secretly, many 'Christ followers' admire the gall of Phelps and his ghoulish brood. If that's the case then YOU are even beneath him in my eyes. While Phelps and his in-bred ilk wear their hate and conviction on their polyester sleeves YOU hide yours and inwardly revel in your own self-righteousness! Who is has the monopoly on moral repugnance?
You wonder why people like myself want no part of your twisted little religion? SHIT like this this is an example!
Look at that turns out I had plenty of words! Here's a few more..
FUCK YOU PHELPS AND YOUR WHOLE IN-BRED TROGLODYTE FAMILY!!
R.
Whether or not Ledger was gay is beside the point; that the evidence strongly suggests he was not simply adds a layer of irony to the whole thing. I doubt very much that the people of the WBC confused the film with reality and concluded that Ledger himself was gay. Clearly the objection is to his involvement with the film, his sympathetic portrayal of a homosexual human being, and how these actions add up to promotion of the so-called Homosexual Agenda.
That, apparently, is the problem: it's a damnable sin> to promote the idea that homosexuality is a benign aspect of humanity, that gays have as much right to live and love with the consenting adult of their choice as do heterosexuals, that hate and phobic thinking projected towards gays contribute negatively to the overall state of the human condition.
If that's the case, then I, my family, and many of our friends are doomed to an eternity of suffering for our support of our gay friends and family members and our open support of marriage equality here in Massachusetts. Whether or not any of us are gay (or not) doesn't (and shouldn't) matter. It doesn't to the WBC, though for all the wrong reasons.
Well, Phelps and his cult of freaks are insane. If only they would allow us to ignore them! I pity them and their wretched existence, and if I was the praying kind, I'd pray that they be granted quick release from the life of hate in which they have been entombed.
Phelps' death is the only reason that I wish Hell were real. The look on old Phred's face when he realizes where he would get to spend eternity after death would be priceless.
Especially when he meets Strom, Jesse, and Ronnie.
I'm throwing a party the day Jesse Helms dies.
Steve Price, a radio shock jock here in Australia, interviewed a member of the Westboro Baptists today about the death of Heath and, well, the result is hilarious. To give a taste of the chat, when he asks if she has visited Australia she says "I wouldn't dare set a foot in your filthy country. You'd send me straight to jail". In the words of Steve Price she is a stupid bitter twisted person.
Steve Price is a dill and I usually wouldn't give him the time of day but this little 6 minute interview is pure gold.
Interview here...
http://www.mytalk.com.au/aspx/pages/mediaplayer.aspx?t=audio&w=6207
Q: How can you tell if your god is a man-made god?
A: He hates the same people you do.
What a horribly hate filled think for a "church" to do.
Here is just another example of the complete and entrenched
insanity of religion, intruding into all phases of human
manner. As I have in several comments to these blogs, I
will not relent in denouncing my hatred of religion and
all who force their deranged ideas on others as a matter
of course.There are several among us who deign to dismiss
my methods as uncivil and demeaning to the atheist and
rational cause. We cannnot kowtow to these insane morons
in any way except to remind them that they are a pox on
civilization and rational thought and behavior. I say we
should unleash a floodgate of vituperation and plain old
retaliatory nastiness on these deranged cretins and have
them get their god to do all that they are currently
doing without human intervention. Give no quarter to these
rabid morons. How long do we have to be complacent with
this insane bullshit? Smash them all, and let their god
sort them out.
Why can't they pool their collective, we'll call it energy and help themselves and others.
In their twisted minds, they are. Calling one damned is far better than allowing them to remain damned. That's the mindset (and I've heard it from LOTS of homohaters).
Not saying I like it or think they have any social use or value--but they're consistent.
To follow up on Kseniya's comment, what worries me most about the WBC is not this kind of ridiculous picketing and these declarations;
On the contrary, it helps our cause (I'm a gay activist and a free thinker).
No, what worries me is what are they going to do next, when they realise that it doesn't work...
Afterall, there is another version of Leviticus that calls for a bit more action wrt to men who lie in bed with other men, "they should be put to death" it says.
God knows what he's going to tell Phelps next time they have a conversation.
Heath Ledger had a special kind of charisma that came through exceptionally well in "A Knight's Tale". A few years ago, HBO was running it all the time and it was so much fun I'd just leave it on and watch it all over again. You could tell that Ledger was a smart, energetic and independent guy. Those same qualities, that led him to tackle controversial roles, are exactly those qualities that religious mongers--of which Phelps is only a more extreme example--hate and want to kill.
Well, I found Fred Jr most engaging in this interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZPsTM-4qgg&eurl
Irresistible
See, you guys have it all wrong. Phelps is a master of irony, and he's on our side. He's made it his life work to show the hatred and bigotry inherent in the Bible by living it out as a demonstration to the world. His ultimate goal is to cause people to turn away from Xianity to atheism, and he's damned successful. Really, folks, he's a modern day Socrates fighting the good fight, and we should all thank him.
;)
Naw, the whole gay hating thing is getting boring, been there done that. They will probably go after people who eat pork, shellfish, or eels. Eels are bad because they don't have scales (supposedly). Deadly sins there.
I expect them to hang around the docks condemming shell fishers to hell and calling them "fags". For 10 minutes until someone pushes them off the docks.
Ric: Wow. You've really opened my eyes here today. Bless you. :-)
With a bowl of water hemlock tea, or by felling a hemlock tree on him?
All of you people who are saying "Don't give them the attention," I don't think you're right, and here's why I don't think you're right. I am pretty sure that they operate much like the rest of the radical right in the US. Here's David Neiwert on why "don't give them publicity" is a bad idea:
(emphasis mine)
Trolls mostly do their thing to "fuck shit up," as we like to say in the pungent idiom of my formative punk-rock years, which is why talking about recipes makes them go away. I don't think that's the correct analogy, since I'm pretty sure that Phelps and his ilk have at least one thing in common with the Minutemen, the Christian Identity people, the neo-Nazis, and the rest of that crew: They really, genuinely believe the crap they're spouting. Letting them continue to spout it unmolested will either lead to anti-gay hate crimes or else give them an opportunity to try to mainstream their bullshit.
Negentropyeater, that story about your mum is really sweet. No offense intended, but it did make me want to give you a hug. :)
These people would picket the grave of a cat if you told them it was gay.
BTW, did anyone catch the diary on Kos the other day when a Kossack encountered a WBC picket line in KS and countered them with punk rock to the satisfaction of other drivers? Good stuff.
Phelps was a figure the GLBT community had to deal with for years with few comments from straight people. It was not until the Phelps clan started cheerleading for the murderers of Matthew Shepard that straight people knew who they were. Even then, it was the friends of Shepard who came up with the giant angels to block out the Phelps when the cameras were on. The cops were not going to keep them away.
The Phelps clan were protesting at the funerals of gay men for years before the Shepard murder. It was not until the Phelps moved on to protesting the funeral of military personal that law makers starting moving against them. Forgive me if I do not express shock over the actions of these people. All I can say is this, welcome to my world.
Oh, Moses, just for the record, Fred Phelps was a registered Democrat for many years.
None of which changes the fact that these would then be different lines independent of Jesus belief.
Longsmith wrote: I understand that his body is being sent to Australia for burial. Will the whole church go? Can they be persuaded to stay? What a vile group.
Aw, don't wish this mess on Australia. Even if you're still fuming that they sent us Rupert Murdoch, we trumped them by loaning them Hutton Gibson.
As for the Westboro-trained ignoramus who "wouldn't set foot" in Australia: If I lived there, I'd be relieved to hear that.
Now that's just all kinds of bullshit.
I've been protested by the Phelpses of Wichita. Twice, but neither time very interesting. The first was on the night of May 16, 2004, when marriage equality finally came into being in MA. There were, oh, 10,000 (according to some reports) people on the front lawn of Cambridge City Hall having a big ol' party, and a couple Phelpses were across the street with their signs being ignored. They left fairly early.
The other time was when i was attending the NGLTF Creating Change conference in Dallas (1994?) The Phelpsies were protesting the hotel/conference space. A group of us was coming back from dinner and saw Freddie and the Gang, and went to our rooms as quickly as possible. Alas, by the time we'd returned from the 24th floor with our cameras, the Phelpses were gone. No picture with Santa :(
Has anyone come in and said the ubiquitous "But... but... Fred Phelps and clan aren't real Christians" yet?
Those folks are my favorites.
Jesus, dude, you're acting like a total-in-denial-over-reacting-douche-bag because I put a pin in your rationalization, so stop it. I don't care whether you like it or not, even the "liberal" Christians have a huge fucking blind-spot to their conduct as they do their best to change their religion from:
That's a god-damn rationalization of the first water in order to get around the hateful aspects of THE BIBLE, the cornerstone of their religion. The bible is, on its face, a bronze-age hate-fest. One which I reject entirely including its fucking homophobia, misogyny and other inherent bullshit all of which says you, among many (the whole list in Leviticus, etc.), are a fucking piece of shit to be killed because you are what you are.
Like I've said many times, I don't believe in that biblical crap. But I also see (as a former priest-in-training BTW) what a load of rationalized codswallop moderate-to-liberal Christianity has become. And while think Christianity becoming more liberal and tolerant is a good thing, I think it's better to just admit there is no Santa and that your ever more complex rationalizations of how presents get under the tree is a waste of time.
And that belief in reality sure as hell doesn't make me "a vile, despicable, righteous piece of S**T !" What it does make me is a grown up. Because, unlike the four-year-old you're acting like, I know how the presents get under the tree and I don't need to make up stories about Santa.
Also, thank you for pointing out just how over-reactive and intolerant even liberal Christians can be of those who disagree with Christianity and it's foibles. You're acting just like a fucking stereotype of everything PZ says about "liberal" Christians and Christianity.
I find it highly amusing that the zip code for Westboro Baptist Church starts with "666". They are clearly tools of Satan put on earth to make it incredibly difficult for "normal" believers to get any kind of respect. Well, more incredibly difficult.
MAJeff, I have a question. When there are a bunch of Phelps types around, I stand up very straight, smile as cheerfully as I can, wave and say 'hello'. They are looking for confrontation and I refuse to play into their martyr complex by yelling at them. (As much as I dearly want to.) Do you employ the same type of tactics.
Also, I heard that the Phelps clan got a lot of their money from lawsuits. Sometimes at some of their appearances, some angry person would attack them. There are many lawyers in that family, they sue those they provoke.
Why is it that these twisted, maniacal assholes can use Leviticus to "condemn" homosexuality when it means so little to them that they themselves don't even follow it?
I have to back up Moses on his latest rant. Here is a link to what Bill Clinton's pastoral counsellor has to say about the "dangers" of Darwin. How is it different from D James Kennedy?
http://richarddawkins.net/articleComments,2172,The-real-danger-in-Darwi…
Well, we were going to go stand next to them to get pictures. Other than that, I just ignore 'em.
C'mon, it was a party of 10,000 people having the time of their lives (I've never been in a happier crowd). why let those assholes fuck it up. Ignore 'em and keep on partying! I figure that being a flambouyant, promiscuous, proud, revolting, homo--or at least proclaiming I am--in their vacinity, and having fun while doing it, is far more enjoyable.
Then it's time for cocktails.
I think they should go after the garment industry next. One, there are a LOT of gays in fashion. Two, they're frequently mixing fibers:
Kill two birds with one stone. (Tim Gunn, woch out! Teh Kristians iz cuming 4 u!!!) Plus, the nativist/milita-leaning ones could get rid of the mexicans... It's a hate-fest win-win-win...
As several people have pointed out, Brokeback Mountain was just a movie. Ledger was also the Joker in the new Batman movie but that doesn't mean that he's in fact an evil clown. That part is reserved for Phelps himself.
I've got a little change to that statement:
A two year old girl lost her father, nothing else about Heath Ledger is relevant or consequential.
I liked his movies, I think he was a talented actor but the impact of his loss on film pales in comparison to the impact of his loss will have on his daughter.
Janine said:
"I have to back up Moses on his latest rant. Here is a link to what Bill Clinton's pastoral counsellor has to say about the "dangers" of Darwin. How is it different from D James K
ennedy?"
This is what pisses me off about the likes of Nisbett, Moody and Brayton. They want us "new" atheists to be nice to the "moderate" theists in order to better fight the fundies. What they fail to do is tell us who these "moderate" theists are. Just when a theist seems to hold moderate, liberal, tolerant views they will come out and say something insane like this chap, or like the Bishop of Carlisle who last summer said the heavy flooding many parts of the UK suffered were a punishment from god for polluting the planet.
There is a problem with trying to be nice the to moderates. They either turn out not to be moderates or they are simply not to be found.
Fred Phelps can be psychoanalyzed from the other side of the world: closeted homosexual acting out against his repressed desires.
Normally, I'd say "too bad for him" and let it be but this guy has indoctrinated an entire clan.
When he dies, I plan on picketing his funeral.
Some commenters here have denounced "the whole Phelps family" with great venom, but it should be noted for the record that a dozen or so of Grandpa Fred's progeny are healthy, sane individuals who have severed all ties with the cult side of the clan and are trying to lead ordinary, non-bigoted lives.
According to their estranged patriarch, they will spend eternity with Heath Ledger and most of America.
Perhaps Australia will choose to keep him out...
You maybe be denied entry if
you fail the character test because:
you have a substantial criminal recordr
you either have, or have had, an association with an individual, group or organisation suspected of having been, or being, involved in criminal conduct
having regard to your past and present criminal / general conduct, you are found not to be of good character
there is a significant risk that you would engage in criminal conduct in Australia, harass,molest, intimidate or stalk another person in Australia, vilify a segment of the Australian community, or incite discord in the Australian community or in a segment of that community or represent a danger to the Australian community or a segment of that community.
MAJeff @55:
You must not have heard MC Hawking's Why Won't Jesse Helms Just Hurry Up and Die?
Moses @75,
thank you for pointing out just how over-reactive and intolerant even liberal Christians can be of those who disagree with Christianity and it's foibles
I don't think Negentropyeater is a Christian, whether liberal or otherwise.
According to the Bishop of Carlisle the UK's toleration of homosexuality was the cause of the floods, Matt. Not that different from the Phelps, hey? And from the good bishop, this gem:
All that from the good old tolerant C. of E.
"There is a view that both oral and anal sexual practice is liable to allow entry to spirits."
Excellent. Maya rulers would use alcoholic enemas to get in the right frame of mind. Oh, thooooose spirits. Nevermind.
"According to the Bishop of Carlisle the UK's toleration of homosexuality was the cause of the floods, Matt. Not that different from the Phelps, hey? And from the good bishop, this gem:
"There is a view that both oral and anal sexual practice is liable to allow entry to spirits."
All that from the good old tolerant C. of E."
The C of E, and the Anglican communion as a whole, is really having a serious internal debate at the moment. On one side you have those who I think you probably can call "moderate". The present ABC would seem to be in that camp. When Archbishop of Wales he knowingly ordained gay clergy for example and appointed an "out" gay man (complete with partner) as a Bishop. The man later withdrew because of the controversy his appointment caused. This branch of the C of E almost seems to have moved away from belief in a divine being to a type of religion where what matters is trying to find a way to live your life. I know that on many issues, Dawkins (and myself) would find ourselves in agreement with this branch of the church (eradicating poverty, free access to education and healthcare etc). There is also an evangelical branch that condems homosexuality etc. These are not people who could be called moderates.
Who would have thought that God has His priorities such that He will spend infinitely more effort torturing this one man for all eternity (an infinite amount of effort) than He has spent in creating the finite universe (a finite amount of effort).
A deity with those priorities is not worthy of my respect.
#6: Don't forget Nixon!
Makes me wish I were gay just so I could piss him off more. On the other hand, that could present problems for my wife and I...
After hearing of Mr. Ledger's untimely death, I was reflecting on his work, and what I knew of the man. I remembered this story about the filming of "Brokeback Mountain":
When They were filming the climactic scene at the Twist ranch with Jack's parents, they started out filming all of Ennis' angles first, typically getting the main actor's work done while he is still fresh.
After he was done, they called a break and Heath went outside the house to compose himself (it was a very emotional scene).
The actors playing Jack's parents got ready to film their closeups with a stand-in for Ennis, as that is how it is usually done. If the star isn't needed in the shot, they generally leave.
They were very surprised and impressed when Heath came back in and sat down with them and did the scenes over again so their performances were just that little bit more real and authentic. The "star" never does that, and they both commented on Heath's humility and generosity. He wanted everyone's work to be the best it could be.
I'm a 47 year old gay man. I don't have a lot of heroes. But Heath Ledger was a hero to me.
About Fred Phelps and his gang of sociopaths, the less said, the better.
"This is what pisses me off about the likes of Nisbett, Moody and Brayton. They want us "new" atheists to be nice to the "moderate" theists in order to better fight the fundies."
Can't seem to avoid running into Penfold's whining about Brayton today. I can't speak for Brayton, but I think the key point you are leaving out is that we should be nice to moderate theists to fight the fundies *concerning evolution and science education*. You know there are plenty of theists who also believe in evolution; the fact that they might also believe in such imaginary things as heaven and hell has zero overlap with the evidence or ideas supporting evolution.
You really don't know any theists you would label 'moderate'? I know tons, and very few extremists. What are your categorizations then; all theists are extreme? I don't know if you're American, but do you really want the 200 million plus theists to follow your suggestion and not be 'nice' to you?
"Just when a theist seems to hold moderate, liberal, tolerant views they will come out and say something insane"
"There is a problem with trying to be nice the to moderates."
I see. So you criticize theists for being intolerant and then urge intolerance towards them. Ever owned an irony meter?
Ignore him and he will go away.
You're absolutely right, it doesn't matter if Heath Ledger was gay or not, or if the character he played was real or not. These are people who can't tell the difference between reality and imaginary friends to begin with, do you think they'll bother to make a distinction between the real man and the fantasy character he played?
Phelps and his spawn are idiots no matter how you look at them.
Christian extremist logic amuses me. Let's see if I follow.
1. Every human being who has ever lived born was sinful and deserving of an eternity of the worst torments imaginable. Seems kinda extreme to me, but okay.
2. If you say, "Jesus save me," just ONCE (preferably right before you have a heart attack, get executed, or have your plane crash into the ocean -- at least if you read Jack Chick,that is), then you immediately get a Get Out of Hell Free card and all is forgiven. Whew. Thanks, Jesus dude.
So let's follow that logic out, and ask a few questions.
Does this mean that a two month-old fetus goes to hell if a woman miscarries? Life begins at conception, after all. Them's the rules.
Blah, blah, blah, yes, all the folks who lived before Jesus or never had a chance, due to time or geography, to get the message.
If the only thing that matters is playing the Get Out of Hell Free card and we're otherwise lost no matter what else we do, then who cares if we live a life of sin before the bell rings? Do we get judged by our misdeeds, as a lot of tracts, etc. would have it, or is it only the yes/no question that counts? In other words, who's fault is it really? Mine for getting some overtime on Sunday? Or was just being the result of my mom's getting frisky with my dad some night when Johnny Carson was in repeats enough to make me fry until the bird who pecks on the iron mountain once a year finally wears it down? (I assume everyone's familiar with that notion of eternity. Mine is the time my now ex-wife made me come with her to a Sting concert.
Likewise, if we play our card early in the game, then do we get a free ride the rest of the way? The usual way that fundie stories works this out is either you die just after you get the word, in which case you don't have a chance to lust after your neighbor's wife or say, "Jesus fuck me bareback," OR you're so transformed by the internal squeegee guy that you stay pure in thought and deed from there on out. Again, if just being born is enough to get the Eternity in the Lake O' Fire treatment, then breaking the commandments again shouldn't count against you.
I think I go try to post a lightly edited version of these questions over at Ray Comfort's site. Maybe he can straighten me out? (Straighten, get it? Haw haw!)
Christian extremist logic amuses me. Let's see if I follow.
1. Every human being who has ever lived born was sinful and deserving of an eternity of the worst torments imaginable. Seems kinda extreme to me, but okay.
2. If you say, "Jesus save me," just ONCE (preferably right before you have a heart attack, get executed, or have your plane crash into the ocean -- at least if you read Jack Chick,that is), then you immediately get a Get Out of Hell Free card and all is forgiven. Whew. Thanks, Jesus dude.
So let's follow that logic out, and ask a few questions.
Does this mean that a two month-old fetus goes to hell if a woman miscarries? Life begins at conception, after all. Them's the rules.
Blah, blah, blah, yes, all the folks who lived before Jesus or never had a chance, due to time or geography, to get the message.
If the only thing that matters is playing the Get Out of Hell Free card and we're otherwise lost no matter what else we do, then who cares if we live a life of sin before the bell rings? Do we get judged by our misdeeds, as a lot of tracts, etc. would have it, or is it only the yes/no question that counts? In other words, who's fault is it really? Mine for getting some overtime on Sunday? Or was just being the result of my mom's getting frisky with my dad some night when Johnny Carson was in repeats enough to make me fry until the bird who pecks on the iron mountain once a year finally wears it down? (I assume everyone's familiar with that notion of eternity. Mine is the time my now ex-wife made me come with her to a Sting concert.
Likewise, if we play our card early in the game, then do we get a free ride the rest of the way? The usual way that fundie stories works this out is either you die just after you get the word, in which case you don't have a chance to lust after your neighbor's wife or say, "Jesus fuck me bareback," OR you're so transformed by the internal squeegee guy that you stay pure in thought and deed from there on out. Again, if just being born is enough to get the Eternity in the Lake O' Fire treatment, then breaking the commandments again shouldn't count against you.
I think I go try to post a lightly edited version of these questions over at Ray Comfort's site. Maybe he can straighten me out? (Straighten, get it? Haw haw!)
Sorry about the double post, folks.
Really, why do they stay in Topeka when the zip code is 66604?
Someone is clearly trying to tell us something.
Oh, the hate speech, the hate speech...right here! Is your speech protected? Why? It's so hate ridden! This list of hatred is common to the "egg-shell" Atheists who shatter so easily. Tolerance? no way! Indict all who don't share your beliefs as one huge body of hate-criminals, and drench them with HATE!
Folks, the Phelpses will not cause the demise of anyone but themselves. You on the other hand are poisoning your own thoughts with unnecessary hate. Chill, people.
Stan Stephens said:
Oh, the hate speech, the hate speech... right here!
[citation needed]
BlueIndependent -
I read that diary! It was fantastic...here's a link if anyone else wants to check it out.
"Can't seem to avoid running into Penfold's whining about Brayton today. I can't speak for Brayton, but I think the key point you are leaving out is that we should be nice to moderate theists to fight the fundies *concerning evolution and science education*. You know there are plenty of theists who also believe in evolution; the fact that they might also believe in such imaginary things as heaven and hell has zero overlap with the evidence or ideas supporting evolution."
No, I understand that point very well. The mistake you, Brayton, Mooney and Nisbett make is that you think it is the only game in town. I live in the UK where the teaching of creationism is not a big issue. There is very little public support for it, and no political support at all. What is much more of an issue are things such as stem cell research, therapeutic cloning and the rights of gays to marry. As you may have noticed the theist moderates who support all of those are thin on the ground both here and in the US. So you have a choice. Do you cozy up to the theists, be nice and not mention things like the right for a women to have an abortion being important or because they happen to support your position on the teaching of creationism/ID. Brayton says Dawkins will make it harder to make allies with theists who support the teaching of evolution because he calls them deluded for believing in something for which there is no evidence. Yet Brayton will happily insult those same theists , in far harsher and much less civil terms (Brayton really is not a civil person). Why should said the said theists overlook what Brayton has to say about their beliefs and take such offence at what Dawkins has to say ?
Of course the simple fact is that Dawkins does NOT put of "moderate" theists, or certainly not all. To give an example a year or so ago there was a debate in the UK when a state funded school seemed to want to teach creationism. Dawkins joined with a number of scientists and religious leaders in signing a letter to The Times stating their profound opposition to such a move. Although this was before "The God Delusion" was published Dawkins' views on religion were well known in the UK, especially to his co-signatories. He remains on good terms with a number of religious leaders some of whom whilst making it clear they do not agree with him, have welcomed the debate.
If you are only concerned about science education and are willing to sacrifice medical research that will save many lives, or sacrifice the rights of gays to marry, adopt and have equality with their married heterosexual peers then go ahead. I will not be fighting alongside you for you are the enemy, not an ally.
You guys need to lay off the Phelps family and leave their freedom of religion alone!
"You guys need to lay off the Phelps family and leave their freedom of religion alone"
Why ?
Yeah, why? They sure don't seem to feel the need to lay off anyone else and leave their freedom of religion alone, why should they be special?
This reminds me of a great concept introduced (to me, anyway) in His Dark Materials: Preemptive Absolution. It's up there with Plausible Deniability on the list of human rationalizations for evil-doing.
"leave their freedom of religion alone!"
I didn't even touch it.
Is Sebastian R.'s blog a joke? Or is it real? I can't tell anymore...
Amanda,
I had a look at his blog as well and I do not know if he is being serious or not. Maybe there should be an icon that can be put beside blogs that are parodies, much like there is an icon that can be used when blogging about peer reviewed research. I would suggest that creationist/ID bloggers use an icon of a very small penis attached to someone's head, but I cannot see them agreeing to use that.
Willy, I'm a huge MC Hawking fan.
I would have a golden shower orgy on Helms' grave if I were into that sort of thing.
#109
Because you're infringing on the Phelps' liberties, that's why!
Matt -
What a great idea! Would the penis be circumsized or uncircumsized? What would the icon look like for parody blogs?
"Can't seem to avoid running into Penfold's whining about Brayton today. I can't speak for Brayton, but I think the key point you are leaving out is that we should be nice to moderate theists to fight the fundies *concerning evolution and science education*. You know there are plenty of theists who also believe in evolution; the fact that they might also believe in such imaginary things as heaven and hell has zero overlap with the evidence or ideas supporting evolution."
No, I understand that point very well. The mistake you, Brayton, Mooney and Nisbett make is that you think it is the only game in town. I live in the UK where the teaching of creationism is not a big issue. There is very little public support for it, and no political support at all. What is much more of an issue are things such as stem cell research, therapeutic cloning and the rights of gays to marry. As you may have noticed the theist moderates who support all of those are thin on the ground both here and in the US. So you have a choice. Do you cozy up to the theists, be nice and not mention things like the right for a women to have an abortion being important or because they happen to support your position on the teaching of creationism/ID. Brayton says Dawkins will make it harder to make allies with theists who support the teaching of evolution because he calls them deluded for believing in something for which there is no evidence. Yet Brayton will happily insult those same theists , in far harsher and much less civil terms (Brayton really is not a civil person). Why should said the said theists overlook what Brayton has to say about their beliefs and take such offence at what Dawkins has to say ?
Of course the simple fact is that Dawkins does NOT put of "moderate" theists, or certainly not all. To give an example a year or so ago there was a debate in the UK when a state funded school seemed to want to teach creationism. Dawkins joined with a number of scientists and religious leaders in signing a letter to The Times stating their profound opposition to such a move. Although this was before "The God Delusion" was published Dawkins' views on religion were well known in the UK, especially to his co-signatories. He remains on good terms with a number of religious leaders some of whom whilst making it clear they do not agree with him, have welcomed the debate.
If you are only concerned about science education and are willing to sacrifice medical research that will save many lives, or sacrifice the rights of gays to marry, adopt and have equality with their married heterosexual peers then go ahead. I will not be fighting alongside you for you are the enemy, not an ally.
I hereby deem Fred Phelps the king (or queen, as it were) of all closest homosexuals!
I'm mean come on.. COOOME ONNN...
:P
"Because you're infringing on the Phelps' liberties, that's why!"
How ?
"How?"
Because the Pilgrims came over on the Mayflower to worship freely, that's why!
Wow...do you know what infringement means?
Tragic no matter what his age...
"Because the Pilgrims came over on the Mayflower to worship freely, that's why!"
Ah, I see you mistake. You seem to think that people who exercise their rights have the right to do so with being criticised for so doing. You are mistaken in thinking that. Looking at your blog I can see being mistaken is not something new for you, so I am sure you are used to it by now.
c'mon, be more creative than that. That's not even good parody trolling.
I wish there was an edit function for comments!
I of course mean "Without", not "With.
Oh yeah? Then why are there PYGMIES + DWARVES?
You can't tell if Sebastian's blog is a parody?
http://theweepingdeity.blogspot.com/2008/01/idiocy-of-gravity.html
Strewth.
"c'mon, be more creative than that. That's not even good parody trolling."
It ain't even good old obnoxious trolling. I sometimes look at posts and wonder if they are trolling or if the writer really is that thick. In this case I think he really might be that thick. All troll would surely try harder to appear an idiot.
The note on the side of the blog is probably a good indicator as well.
"Everything on this blog is copyrighted by Sebastian. Information from other sources is copyright of its respective owner. Please do not republish any content from this website without express written consent from Sebastian. Also, this blog is a parody. Please do not take it seriously. All rights reserved."
Need to step up your parody trolling game, Sebastian.
Here's your smoking gun:
Sebastian, please don't sue me for publishing your blog's legal content.
Don,
The problem with dealing with creationists is that your parody meter soon breaks. There is no position that is too absurd that a creationist will not at some taken have taken it. I know from experience. I used to be part of a chat room that dealt with the creationism/ID issue. If things were quiet I would sometimes pose as a creationist and come out with most stupid arguments I could think off. I soon gave up when I was directed towards website with real creationisms making the very argument I was. I am not sure if that means I would make a good or a bad creationist.
Re: ""You guys need to lay off the Phelps family and leave their freedom of religion alone."
Can we expect to see a "LEAVE FREDDY ALONE!!!" video on YouTube?
Moses,
"Like I've said many times, I don't believe in that biblical crap. But I also see (as a former priest-in-training BTW) what a load of rationalized codswallop moderate-to-liberal Christianity has become. And while think Christianity becoming more liberal and tolerant is a good thing, I think it's better to just admit there is no Santa and that your ever more complex rationalizations of how presents get under the tree is a waste of time."
So, YOU THINK Christianity becoming more liberal and tolerant is a good thing, but on the way, why not shake these god soaked heads a bit more and get them to drop it alltogether.
First, you seem to completely ignore the practicality of your suggestion, and second, completely ignore the counter reaction that it may cause.
" You're acting just like a fucking stereotype of everything PZ says about "liberal" Christians and Christianity."
First, I'm not a Christian, but someone who understands how difficult it may be for many to abandon some superstitions.
And yes, I have zero tolerance for intolerance (I know there is a contradiction). And as a homosexual, and a free thinker, I'd rather deal with people who respect me and are tolerant of the way I think, but in exchange, respect them and be tolerant of the way they think.
When one lumps moderate tolerant Christians together with fundamentalists into one big category of "deluded people", that speaks of intolerance.
I'd rather have 60% of the American population defending us, and the importance of respect and tolerance, than 90% against us, and trying to convince them that their superstitions are mere delusions.
Because when there is respect and tolerance, you have already gone the first step towards people opening up their minds. And after one or two generation, you will benefit from a similar situation as we have here in Western Europe.
All you're suggesting is more of the same polarizing discourse that has so evidently failed in the USA for the last 40 years.
It's so obvious it hurts.
[Captain Kirk]Kyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyle!!!![/Captain Kirk]
That's supposed to say "Science is a parody" but I'm typo-prone.
Is it not the point of parody to be funny ?
In which case I think Sebastian has not correctly described his blog.
Yes, TrueBob, I preceded you!
Odd, though, looking at Sebastian's blog, I think he may have been molested by a weatherman.
At least everyone is leaving Britney alone! Showing, of course, that among atheists at least the quality of mercy is not strained, and it falleth down like a gentle rain from heaven on the just and unjust alike. Unstrained.
My favorite morning radio show, The Adam Carolla Show, had some wonderful rants on Shirley Phelps, who is a recurring guest on the show whenever a protest of hers pops up.
The segment with the Shirley interview is [a href="http://podcast.971freefm.com/klsx1/872158.mp3"]here.[/a]
And the segment where Adam rants about atheism is [a href="http://podcast.971freefm.com/klsx1/872167.mp3"]here.[/a]
He hits a lot of high points, but unfortunately when he runs out of steam he slips back into kowtowing to the moderates a bit. Still, it's pretty remarkable to hear a person who reaches millions of people across the country and the world every morning proclaiming his atheism from the mountaintops.
Parody doesn't have to funny; it's just anything you do that imitates in order to mock, ridicule OR poke fun its original meaning.
I think that "Sebastian" is just attempting to show how the posts on that blog aren't that much sillier than posts on actual blogs. There's a reference to Uncommon Descent near the bottom.
I could be wrong, though.
Too many typos!
"to be funny"
"fun at its original"
"When one lumps moderate tolerant Christians together with fundamentalists into one big category of "deluded people", that speaks of intolerance."
The problem is that these moderate tolerant Christians are in short supply.
Let's look at the the biggest Christian groups shall we ?
Catholics: Well the Catholic position on homosexuality is very clear. Individual Catholics may oppose that position but as long as they continue to call themselves a Catholic they give support to a bigoted organisation.
Anglicans: The position here is less clear. There is no central authority for Anglicans. The Archbishop of Canterbury is head of the Church of England but only has a role as a spiritual advisor to other Anglican Communions. The Archbishop probable can be called moderate and tolerant, as could the Episopalean leadership in the US. Both have significant internal dissent and considerable external dissent especially amongst the African Anglican Communions. However the idea that Dawkins scares of these moderate Anglicans is false. He is on good personal terms with many, co-operates over opposition to the teaching of creationism/ID, and a number of leading Anglicans have welcomes his robust contribution to the debate.
Methodists: Again split like the Anglicans.
Baptists: Some are moderate but many hold fundamentalist beliefs.
So when we look at who these moderate Christians are we find that 1) there are not that many and 2) those that are moderate are not put of by Dawkins anyway.
@Sebastian(irony meter spinning outta control)
So,Phelp's liberties should not be infringed, while
the rest of us should have none ? wtf ?
btw,dude,stop hogging valuable server space and
bandwidth by killing your blog.I'm dreaming that anyone
other than you takes any interest in your blog.
astrolieber, you're preaching to the birds. he's about as serious as an ID theory.
Phelps and his Ilk are the only honest christians. If the old tesiclemnt and the new testiclemnt are the Real One True Word, then this life on earth means absolutely nothing, other than our job to praise Jebus and spread his word. All these middle of the road Sunday morning only prayerheads need to get busy, or its off to hell for sure. Either that, or realize that its all just a fantasy. I feel the same about Agnostics. Poop, or get off the pot. The evidence is in, people should start making up their minds, and living according to their adopted philosophy.
I did hear Reverend Phelps taken down in public one day.
In 1999 in Vancouver they were broadcasting an American radio comedy duo. I can't remember their names, but they were intermittently funny, so I sometimes listened. One day they advertised that they were going to interview the infamous Fred Phelps. I waited until Fred came on the line.
They asked a couple of questions and Fred started preaching his "hate the fags" line, droning on most lasciviously (I mean, it was sick -- you could hear how *much* he was enjoying saying these disgusting things) for a few minutes. Then one of the guys interrupted him and said, "Reverend Phelps, don't you think that your obssession with gays and gay behaviour masks some gay proclivities of your own."
(Wonderful, dead silence for several seconds. Finally that raving asshole had been shut up, and on live radio).
The comic continued, "After all, they've done studies which have shown that those who are most against homosexuality have a greater liklihood of having those desires themselves --" (Fred hangs up).
It was great.
If Fred Phelps is an example of those who make it to Heaven, I'm pretty sure I don't want to go there.
I plan to spend the first few years of my death decomposing. Actually, that's not true. Hopefully, my family will follow my wishes and cremate me. Rapid oxidation at a high temperature solves a lot of land-use issues.
Yeah, attacking Heath Ledger and his family at this time helps ensure that, eventually, Fred Phelps will get the funeral he deserves. I'm not sure he understands just how many people don't like him (practically everyone, as it turns out).
That hat Phelps wears sure is pretty Brokeback. Methinks the cowpoke doth protest too much:
http://stribs.blogspot.com/2008/01/when-homophobes-attack.html
All of a sudden, I had this little feeling that one day we just might find out that Fred Phelps has been playing bottom (or top, who knows?) with Ted Haggard for many, many years. Or maybe Jim Guckert/Jeff Gannon.
It also just occurred to me that Phelps and his ugly crew might just get the (extremely negative) attention they deserve; after all, soldiers' funerals aren't usually covered widely in the national media. Ledger's, however, will be. This could get really interesting.
Now, now. We gave you a free pass on Auvinen, after all.
I suspect that some of the more conservative Christians have mixed feelings on Phelps. On the one hand, he makes Christianity look bad. On the other hand, he makes almost every other Christian look like a thoughtful "moderate" who is careful to avoid extremes. He shifts the Overton Window so far over Dawkins can't hardly tug it back at all.
Atheist attacks against the theology of genuinely moderate, reasonable, tolerant Christians are a compliment to them. It's an admission that we're on the same side, and oh so close. After all, scientists usually care more about disputing respected colleagues than wasting their time with crackpots.
Whenaever Fred Phelps is trotted out, you KNOW in the next breath there will be condemnation of liberal-to-moderate Christians, who allegedly believe all the same things but don't have the guts to say so.
I wish Fred would come to San Francisco. Come on, there's lots of gays over here! I sincerely hope he does come one day, because he will probably be raped and all the world will rejoice.
This is so over the top that at first I thought it was from Landover Baptist.
"If you are only concerned about science education and are willing to sacrifice medical research that will save many lives, or sacrifice the rights of gays to marry, adopt and have equality with their married heterosexual peers then go ahead. I will not be fighting alongside you for you are the enemy, not an ally."
You can spare me the tough-guy rhetoric a la George W. I don't see how you've at all made the case that these different issues are all inextricably linked, and that support for one weakens one's ability to fight against the others, or that there's any sacrifice of anything. This massive guilt by association you've projected onto theists is absurd if you are consistent about it in the other areas of your life; do you treat as enemies all people who happen to disagree with you on those subjects? There are theists who do not have a problem with gay marriage; should they be shunned because they believe in God just like those other people who believe in God and do have a problem with it? Are they somehow tacitly endorsing a position that they're in direct opposition to? Absurd.
"So you have a choice. Do you cozy up to the theists, be nice and not mention things like the right for a women to have an abortion being important or because they happen to support your position on the teaching of creationism/ID."
No, there are many choices. If your priority is the integrity of science education then of course you'd be stupid to alienate theists; what a great weapon in the fight than to show that evolution does not equal atheism for example. It absolutely does not mean that you can't then fight them on gay marriage. By allying with a theist who agrees with us on evolution in the interest of science education, you've done absolutely nothing to support their differing position on abortion, gay marriage, stem cell research, any more than they have supported your atheism.
If you're so worked up about abortion that all pro-lifers are enemies period, not just on this subject, than have at it. But don't pretend it's the best strategy to achieve other unrelated goals for people who don't share your enthusiasm for that issue.
"Yet Brayton will happily insult those same theists , in far harsher and much less civil terms (Brayton really is not a civil person)."
Did you really type that with a straight face? On PZ Myers blog? I think you mean he's not civil to some people that you agree with (or with you, I don't know). I doubt you care how civil he or PZ is to the ID clowns for instance. Lack of 'civility' doesn't phase me at all and I like it in the right context, but I'm not the one complaining about it. How should we treat these people who you disagree with on these issues and are the enemies? Not nice but civil?
Let me offer a method for dealing with these morons that is simple, effective, 100% legal and very likely to give them fatal heart attacks. Share and enjoy!
On the other hand, you got a free pass on Cho. So perhaps we should instead compare Phelps to one of those militant God-hating atheist misanthrope preachers, like Dawkins. He's so evil, he's even exhorting his followers to picket his own funeral.
Wow wow. These crazies are what frighten me the most in this world.
What a tragic loss.
Might be nice if they went to Oz to protest. They don't seem to realize that country doesn't have exactly the same constitution guaranteeing freedom of speech. It'd be nice to see them holding off a nice fat lawsuit while doing some Aussie prison time... Not worth it to put the Ledger family through that, but if they do, I hope they get their asses kicked, Australian-style.
Surely these crazed psychopaths arent considering leaving there precious 'USA' to protest in Australia?
I can say without doubt if they rock up to a funerel here and are unwanted they will be removed.
wow. I'm glad to hear someone say that. I thought I was the only "apologist" here. I thought everyone here wanted all religious people to immediately declare that they were wrong all along...
However, I would like to know what happened to tolerance and why so many supposedly religious people are so intolerant? What ever happened to "judge not, lest you be judged"? Jesus preached tolerance of our enemies and of criminals - you know: "Ye have heard that it hath been said, thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy; but I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you..." and "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone".
Why was tolerance of your fellow man the first thing to be thrown out when organized religion was established?
Jesus didn't say, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone - unless the guy's a fag." Heath Ledger wasn't even gay, he just played a gay guy in a movie, but I guess that's beyond the faculty of some church-goers...
The problem is that most "religious" people aren't that bad. Uninformed, but not bad. Maybe if we didn't spend all of our money on the military, we wouldn't have so many delusional people out there. We can only change the views of the coming generations through a better educational system. Things will definately not change by attacking religious people's views directly. In fact, it will only create a backlash. Only tolerance and education will change things - and I mean tolerance, but not to the point that we give up our secular society to appease them, because that would create intolerance toward those who do not share the same religious views.
We should also have laws to prevent churches from becoming Big Businesses - or at least make them pay taxes.
OK, maybe I'm not that tolerant, because I'd really like to see children who are home-schooled be forced to go to public school if they are not meeting certain national requirements in Reading, Math and Science.
That's my rant. I'm sure no one will read it anyway...
You dont have the right to judge Heath Ledger's soul is now in hell (WBC). First and foremost, you are not GOD for you to comment that way. The best thing that you can do is to offer a prayer for his soul so that he may be rest in PEACE. And one more thing, you dont have also the right to picket his funeral.
Scott, Sastra, Bart, Matt, ...
Scott, you are not the only "apologist" here, but I refuse that term which has been invented by some particular brand of free thinkers who seem to despise so much Christianity and everything related to it.
No, the appropriate term is simply "tolerant".
I am not apoligizing for tolerant moderate Christians, but am tolerant of their beliefs, as long as they are tolerant and respectfull of my non belief and my homosexuality. How can one expect tolerance and respect if one makes statements that moderates are just as deluded as extremists and fundamentalists ?
Matt, you say : "So when we look at who these moderate Christians are we find that 1) there are not that many and 2) those that are moderate are not put of by Dawkins anyway."
And Sastra adds : "Atheist attacks against the theology of genuinely moderate, reasonable, tolerant Christians are a compliment to them. It's an admission that we're on the same side, and oh so close. After all, scientists usually care more about disputing respected colleagues than wasting their time with crackpots."
Matt, if there were so few moderate Christians, how are Clinton or Obama, themselves moderate Christians, who have made clear that they are pro gay rights, pro choice, and pro science, ever going to be elected ?
Second, I'd like to see some evidence that a) moderate Christians are not put off by Dawkins et Al or b) as Sastra suggests, they are receiving these attacks as a compliment ?
Until I see the evidence, I will remain very skeptical of these claims.
Don't misunderstand me, I am not suggesting, and never had, that Dawkins et Al shouldn't be doing what they are doing.
I like PZ's blog very much, the discussions that he stimulates, and the thoughtfulness of many of the commenters.
All, I am suggesting is that if this becomes the one and only voice of free thinkers that is being heard in the media, that is the idea that moderate Christians are dishonest because they pick and choose, statements like Bart Mitchell's that "Phelps and his Ilk are the only honest christians.", we're on for a rough ride, a confrontational one.
I think America needs more Atheists like Jean Paul Sartre, people who may voice their non belief but also express their skepticism about their own convictions.
Doubt, Tolerance and Moderation are the values that need to be raised in the American consciousness, and these don't usually do too well when cultures become so polarized, as it has been the case in the USA over the last 40 years.
God doesn't hate
It's simple
Tell that to everyone who isn't a descendent of Noah.
If they do picket his funeral, with all the press that will likely be there, the publicity will show the world what a bunch of hateful, hypocritical assholes Westboro people really are.
True, wheatdogg, but in my experience the WBC people are already viewed as hateful, twisted wrecks by everyone who's aware of them. Nothing will change them; global exposure will have no effect beyond giving people like us the satisfaction of knowing the WBC has made itself into an object of ridicule and contempt around the world. More to the point, I doubt there's a prevalent, erroneously positive view of the WBC in Australia that needs to be, ah, corrected. ;-)
Still, I agree with the opinion that ignoring implies condoning. Some things need to be actively addressed; sometimes we do have to stand up and object, if only to make it clear to anyone listening or watching that This Is Not Ok.
For the record, I've read it, and it's not bad...
You are mistaken about agnosticism. It is the position of "I don't know, and you don't know either -- you just believe".
Well, then it's time to take a stand about Not Being Sure! :-p
Phelps and his jackals came to Chicago to protest the gay pride parade a few years ago. On TV, they looked larger than life. In person they were a small visibly scared group, surrounded by cops, being shouted down or literally ignored by the thousands of gay and staight people attending the parade. Sums it all up really. They're entirely insignificant but because what they do is so offensive to anyone with a heart, the underserved attention they receive is monumental. On the day Phelps kicks it, I hope it's a day like any other in Kansas. No celebrations. Just some tumbleweeds blowing down the street. And a sun rising and setting not for him or anyone else. No distinction. Nothing.
#6 - Clever. Thats going to be a hard funeral to picket.
#9 - I'm not sure if you actually wanted an answer, but God has no gender. Gay is gay, lesbians are still gay...so groups like these hate ALL gay people. Its just as vile to them.
Its ironic. They're breaking every single commandment there is.
Their zip code starts with 666??!! Maybe there is a god after all.
That's what happens when people turn themselves over to religious dogma, the fundamentalist variety in particular. Their minds and rational faculties simply shut down. People become defined in very narrow terms and the world is divided into sharp categories of good and evil with no in between. Of course they are in the good category, and most everybody else is in the bad.
I think that the most important thing about Heath Ledger was pointed out by Annie Proulx (who wrote the original story); she said "Heath Ledger is just almost really beyond description as far as I'm concerned. He got inside the story more deeply than I did. All that thinking about the character of Ennis that was so hard for me to get, Ledger just was there. He did indeed move inside the skin of the character, not just in the shirt but inside the person. It was remarkable."
Apart from being a good actor, this is about empathy. The ability of someone to imagine themselves into another person's life.
Self evidently, Phelps has no capacity for empathy at all.
Heaven and hell are what we make of our lives on earth. At least Heath Ledger didn't live his life in hell, as Phelps does.
I'd just like to assure all that a) Phelps and his lot are perfectly welcome to protest here (Australia) if they wish and b) should they choose to do so, they will likely spend a few years behind bars for their efforts.
However, just yesterday, Shirley Phelps-Roper was on public radio (being interviewed by some hosts here) and she firmly declared she "would not set foot in (our) filthy country!" which quite honestly, we're fine with too.
Heath Ledger agreed to try to take the message of accepting the sin of Homosexuality as "COOL" to mislead young people in our Country.
Homosexuality kills. It always has. It always will.
Wow. That's rather cold and virtually indistinguishable from the Nazi mentality.
The following points suggest a weakness to the presented argument:
(1) One cannot presume to understand god's mind unless one is actually god
(2) Matthew 7:2-"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you".
(3) Presumably the movie involved two actors.
(4) The current evidence suggests that Ledger's death may have been self-induced and not a consequence of a vengeful god event such as a lightning bolt, locust, or oxygen.
(5) "the greatest trick the Devil ever played, was to convince us that he didn't exist". Keyser Sose, The Usual Suspects
Wow. God with a lowercase "g" (implying that he's not really God). That's rather cold and virtually indistinguishable from the Nazi mentality.
#180
God rarely uses lightning bolts & such to destroy countries.
Sometimes their actions carry an automatic downward spiral.
Sometimes he allows adversary nations/groups to defeat "once favored" countries.
The latter will probably be "Our" fate, IMO.
@180:
Indeed. The hypothesis I'm working with is:
1. God = good
2. god = bad (i.e., the devil; similar to Kyser Sose in the movie The Usual Suspects)
Based on the yin-yang concept.
@182:
Well god might. But God might be something like Jimmie Hendrix, "When the power of love, overcomes the love of power, then the world shall know peace."
#183
"LeftField" called-- they want their position back!
just kidding, kinda
#184
Haha; Yeah. It was so far left I actually ran into myself. :) (Definitely a Dennis Miller moment). Here's some more...
I figure the only way the obvious contradictions in the Bible would make sense are:
(1) If god has bipolar disorder
(2) It was a co-authored joint venture (god & satan, Pre Big Bang)
(3) Something got lost in the translation between what God said and the several thousand years that past before the invention of language, paper, and writing. (Oh that darned Tree of Knowledge).
Reference
Jesus, G., & Satan, B. (Pre Big Bang). Bible (NIV ed.): Creation Publication Services.
I cannot believe how un-christian all of you are.
This has to be one of the most sick posts I've ever read.
I thought religion is to be good - not to prosecute.
I thought GOD was kind? I thought GOD does not punish?
And you can't understand the whole Terrorist mentality?
THIS makes you no better than them.
You are now on level playing field of the terrorists.
Good for you Christians!
The mortality rate of heterosexuals is pretty high, too.
Not even very small countries?
"To be fair to Phelps, that's not inconsistant if you're a biblical literalist. Handing out enormous punishments for trivial transgressions sure sounds like the biblical God to me. Just goes to show Phelps reads his Bible.".....
I disagree with the notion that Phelps reads his bible.
Excerpt from the third part of the sermon on the mount:
"Judge not, that you may not be judged. For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye? Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. Give not that which is holy to dogs; neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turning upon you, they tear you."
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them."
"Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity."
As a Christian (of the Lutheran variety), I believe that God is love, not hate -- that God is capable of a love far greater than we mere mortals can surmise -- and that REAL hell is the absence of God.
Does this now mean that any one who's ever played Hitler in a move a vicious anti-semite?
Dude, these morons don't represent religious belief; they represent religious insanity. People like that can twist any school of thought (or blatant lack therof), be it social, political, philosophical, whatever, and make it serve their own fruitcake agenda. Lumping everyone who has spiritual beliefs in with them is like throwing a wrecked and burned Chevette that's been at the bottom of a lake for 20 years in a garage with a vintage Rolls Royce. Yeah, they're both cars, but geeeeezzzzz . . . . .
Find out how many of these guys are doing what they do because they feel faith in the Divine requires them to oppose Phelps:
http://www.patriotguard.org/
Have an easy day,
Snooze
Has anyone noticed how fred phelps looks like Darth Sidious?
He also looks like the cultist leader "Sean" from the Xbox360 game "Dead Rising"
I never knew this fucktard and his cult of lawers even existed (I'm Australian) until I heard how he plans to disrupt Heath Ledgers funeral here in Perth City, Western Australia.
I now know WHY the phelp whelps are THE most hated family in America...if indeed the world.
Gods blood! I'd rather be friends with that lunatic Bin Laden than fred phelps...and I dont even like mr Laden.
Look up stuff on youtube about fred phelps and his cult....so many people take the piss out of him....one guy sent him a personal message calling fred a 'shit eater'...someone else pretended to be god in a parody video.....and someone else made a vid 'westboro confession'....Hillarious!
fred phelps IS the devil....no doubt about it...the old cunt freaks me out! and if he does come to Perth to harrass Heaths family, I'll hunt him down and use my kick-boxing skills and my martial arts staves to crack his fucking skull!
Peace to all of you!
Laters!
Well, Tim... You haven't read your bible.
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
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HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
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HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
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HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
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HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
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HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
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HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
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HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
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HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL
And you will know they are christians by their love.....
Really, why do they stay in Topeka when the zip code is 66604?
Someone is clearly trying to tell us something.
For the record, I've read it, and it's not bad...
You are mistaken about agnosticism. It is the position of "I don't know, and you don't know either -- you just believe".
HEATH LEDGER IS BURNING IN HELL????
What are you trying to do, writing so much times this phase??
It's not revolution 9 from the beatles to do that.
What an empty mind to wrote that, unbeliable... where is the love of god on that church??
Are all a few fucking bitch children who shit is thought that those are thick of shit to say who goes to the hell and who not?
HEATH LEDGER WAS NOT HOMOSEXUAL, ONLY IT WAS PLAYING A HOMOSEXUAL'S ROLE.
I am more than sure of that the esta in the hell if not that is in the sky. And that all of you damned mother fuckers do not have the balls to come and to say it to me in the face. shit male prostitutes die!
HEATHCLIFF ANDREW LEDGER REST IN PEACE in spite of all these mother fuckers.
I am always going to love you.
And if some idiot has something that to say to me, this is my mail.
tripagus95@hotmail.com
I wish Them the worst thing for shit that there are, for not valuing one of the biggest actors that we could have. JACKASSES !
Um. Augustina.
I think you might want to consider some professional help.
Do you have any problem with me ?
Fist: My name is AGUSTINA, no AUGUSTINA
Second: You don't even know me to say that I need to consider some professional help.
Third: Screw you
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger ♥ always in my hearth
Agustina...
English is obviously not your first language. So freaking out on this board because you fail to understand what's being discussed is kind of dumb.
Most who frequent this board don't think Heath is in hell. Because most of us don't believe in a heaven or hell. The topic of this board was crazy christians attacking heath because of their hate and ignorance.
And then you pop in almost a year after the original post screaming like a lunatic fan.
You might want to move along and stop embarassing yourself.
Whatever your name is, you have what appears to be an unhealthy obsession with a dead celebrity.
I stress the unhealthy part.
And no I would not screw you. You seem to have too many screws loose as it is.
los dos se la comeeeeeeeeeeeen iguuaal =)
poe i guess?