Last chance

Wait a minute... These people invent a law supposedly for protecting teachers and enabling them to present all 'scientific' views on evolution. Will this then allow them also to teach creationist views in the classroom? Do creationist views fall under 'scientific views' then? Would this at all work in practice? I am just asking...

Just emailed:
Satanists for academic freedom

Dear Mr Villalobos,
the Florida Satanists would highly appreciate if you would vote today in favor of
the academic freedom bill.
All viewpoints deserve to be taught to our children, including Intelligent Design.
Intelligent Design is the notion that the world may have been designed by Satan.
As Satanists we are enthusiastic that this idea can finally be taught in school.
Thanks

"...full range of views on biological and chemical evolution" is code for 'intelligent design', which is code for 'creationism'.

Luckily, my state senator is on the committee, so I sent him the following:

Senator Saunders,

Please vote against SB 2692. Among other undesirable portions, this is the most objectionable:

52 (6) Public school students in the state's K-12 school

53 system shall be evaluated based upon their understanding of

54 course materials through normal testing procedures. However,

55 students shall not be penalized for subscribing to a particular

56 position or view regarding biological or chemical evolution.

To teach children a subject, yet not hold them accountable for what they have learned, is irresponsible education and a waste of our tax dollars. This bill is retaliation for the recent inclusion of biological evolution in Florida science education standards. Retaliation by those who were never properly educated in the mechanics of evolution and therefore do not understand it. Please do not allow another generation of Florida students to be shrouded in ignorance simply because of the religious beliefs of a small minority.

The overwhelming evidence for evolution as the basis for the diverse speciation of life on this planet is such that any new evidence discovered will either uphold its tenets or slightly modify the rules as we now know them to be. There are currently no other scientifically valid explanations with nearly the degree of evidence that biological evolution has, and to legislate otherwise denigrates the hard work and research that thousands of scientists around the world have devoted their lives to.

I sent my comments in, even though I'm not from there. It's just plain embarrassing.

I support the bill.

I'm gonna make a fortune selling GODDIDIT
stamp and ink-pad sets to the students!
Also for good measure:

ALLAHDIDIT
THEFSMDIDIT
CTHULUDIDIT

etc.
(I'm sure someone beat me to it...)

*sigh* I just found out Arizona is working on it's own "Religious Freedom Act". At least ours does not have any language on it about evolution. This is still a bad bill.

http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/48leg/2r/bills/h…

Awww, heck.

Let them have their ruling. "Big Science" is just going to let it's "Global Warming" weapon loose and flood them all ten feet under anyway.

It is Florida we're talking about, right?

It's not just Florida. The "academic freedom" language used in the document (a product of the Discovery institute. I think) is spreading all over the place. For example, a similar bill has been introduced in Missouri. See the National Center for Science Education's website for more information: http://www.natcenscied.org/

Here is my email to the committee:

Dear Sirs and Madam,

As a concerned Florida resident, I would plead with you to vote against SB2672, which seems to allow (albeit vaguely) for creationism ("Intelligent Design") to be taught alongside evolutionary biology in our public schools' science classes. If this is the case, would it not also require teachers to give equal weight to such things as astrology, the geocentric universe, a flat earth, werewolves, leprechauns, and Peter Pan? I mean, we are talking about "the full range of scientific views," after all, and if that range includes creationism -- a completely unscientific, irrational theory without a shred of supporting evidence -- then it must also include any other rubbish we can think up. If the bill passes, I would like to volunteer my time to preach -- er, sorry, teach -- the theory that life is bound by the Force, the agents of which are tiny entities that live in our blood called Midichlorians, and that it flows through us all, guiding us, but also obeying our commands. Those especially in tune with the Force may become Jedi, protectors of peace in the galaxy. I have several teaching aids as well: action figures, novels, video games, trading cards, Pez dispensers... There really is a wealth of material regarding this scientific and completely valid theory!

Not only is this just as scientifically valid as the theory of creationism, but it's much cooler and I think kids would respond to it more positively. Let's get these kids excited about learning!

Sincerely,

Ryan Cole

Here's the link where you can get the senators' email addresses ...
http://www.flsenate.gov/cgi-bin/View_Page.pl?Tab=committees&Submenu=1&F…

There is a recent change to the bill which requires the students to be responsible for the material presented. So, "God did it" will no longer be an acceptable answer - thank dog! BUT it is still vague on what scientific material is.

IMO - letters should focus on what "Peer Reviewed" actually is - THANKS!!

Ah yes, the bringing out of the "Wedge" by the antievo
front.....just in time for another presidential campaign
season-

I often wonder what it feels like to have a head filled only
with manipulative PR campaign strategies--is there
any space left in their heads for their own
childhood memories?

The bill passed the committee on a partisan 6-3 vote.
http://www.flascience.org/wp/?p=533

If I were a student in Florida, I'm not sure whether I'd like this bill or not. On one hand, it allows teachers to teach dreck and students to get away with answering with BS instead of facts. On the other hand, Biology just got much easier. Don't know the answer to a question? Claim your religion states that the FSM did it. Easy A! Plus if your teacher decides to dock you points for these types of answers, I think you can sue the school for horrible emotional damage stemming from religious discrimination (ok, maybe you can only make your state a laughingstock that has to grant A's for the FSM).

Mercurious wrote- "*sigh* I just found out Arizona is working on it's own "Religious Freedom Act". At least ours does not have any language on it about evolution. This is still a bad bill."

I'm an Arizona resident, and I read through the bill. The "Students Religious Freedom Act". I can't see anything in it that isn't already covered by the First Amendment.
Unless I'm reading it incorrectly, the bill seems to say that a student answering "Goddidit" on a test will still get them a failing grade. So what's the point of this bill? Hmmm.

Rick R wrote- "So what's the point of this bill? Hmmm."

I'll answer my own question: NOTHING. There is no point besides giving fundies a "feel good" warm fuzzy moment c/o their representatives.

Well, it happened:

Florida Senate committee OKs teaching of alternative theories to evolution
By Linda Kleindienst | Sun-Sentinel.com
1:09 PM EDT, April 8, 2008
Article tools
E-mail Share
Digg Del.icio.us Facebook Fark Google Newsvine Reddit Yahoo Print Reprints Post comment Text size: TALLAHASSEE - Florida teachers could present alternative theories to evolution including religion-based creationism and intelligent design without fear of retribution under a measure that passed a key Senate committee on Tuesday.

The "Evolution Academic Freedom Act" was approved by the Senate Judiciary Committee in a 6-3 vote. It next goes to the full Senate for consideration, although no date has yet been set.

Casting votes against the bill were Democratic Sens. Ted Deutch of Boca Raton, Steve Geller of Cooper City and Jeremy Ring of Parkland. The committee's six Republicans voted in favor of the measure.

Sen. Ronda Storms, R-Valrico, said she filed the bill after hearing cases of students and teachers who felt "muzzled" and unable to discuss alternate theories in the classroom. She said teachers have suffered retribution from school authorities, and students have been the target of "denigrating comments" from other teachers.

Related links
State Legislature: All you need to know from Tallahassee
While the measure does not allow a teacher to promote a specific religious doctrine, "you can hold to your own religious views without being attacked for it," she said.

Among the bill's supporters is Senate Majority Leader Dan Webster, R- Winter Garden, who said the measure allows teachers to point out flaws in the theory of evolution.

"Are we or are we not going to have academic freedom?" asked Webster, who appeared at the committee only to vote for the bill.

But opponents raised concerns about keeping separation of church and state.

"I believe the purpose of this bill is to let people bring their religious beliefs into school," said Geller, the Senate's Democratic leader. "We need to keep the wall."

The House version of the bill has yet to be heard, but it has only been assigned to one committee and still has time to come up before lawmakers adjourn on May 2.

The legislation was filed after the state Board of Education, by a one-vote margin, in February approved changes to the state science standards that now specifically require the teaching of evolution.

www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-0408evolutionbill,0,54…

They never have explained why "academic freedom" matters with respect to chemical and biological evolution, but not elsewhere. But then again, they wouldn't dare tell the truth.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7

I wonder how they feel about this down in Casadega...

I happen to believe that GOD touches certain family line with the wisdom to lead, that GOD sets up royal families to rule the people. To deny a king the GOD given right to rule is a slap in the face of GOD. It also gives the children the wrong idea on how you treat authority. Therefor, I refuse to read about The English Revolution, The American Revolution, The French Revolution and the fall of The House Of Hapsburg , The House Of Romanov and The House Of Hohenzollern. Such thoughts disturbs my religious beliefs.

If I were still in high school, I would seize the opportunity to demonstrate how ridiculous this is. I'd posit all sorts of filthy, inane responses on my bio tests without fear of it affecting my grade. Any FL HS students reading? Be creative with your alternative theories! Make them regret it!

I went to high school in Florida for a few months. I only wish this had happened then. MrSquid, I had the exact same thought. I'd answer every test question with something ridiculous, and I'd look back on my F in that class with more pride than I would any A I ever got.

It sickens me all the more to know that my dad and step-mom, who believe the earth is 6,000 years old and that evolution is a conspiracy among satanists and homosexuals to kill religion and bring forth Armageddon, will be teaching my little brother and sister this same nonsense, and they'll be told in school that it's perfectly valid.

The SCOTUS is gonna have to kill this sucker if the schools are forced to decide which "alternative explanations" qualify as valid alternatives to the real answers.

And you know they will be. How can this not happen? The moment some kid gets slapped down for submitting some aspect of a Pastafarian or Zoroastrian creation myth in place of a legitimate scientific, reality-based explanation, while his Creationist classmates get away with using pieces of Genesis, is the moment when this whole charade becomes manifestly unconsitutional and must then be shot down like a rabid... err... fruit bat.

I'm kind of at a loss on what conservatives want to do at this point (Republicans voted for, Democrats against, and if parties don't exactly tell us who's conservative and who's not, they're a pretty good indication).

They seem to be seriously wounded politically, especially at the national scale.

So what are they doing about it? They seem to be putting a considerable amount of their efforts into proving that they're a nest of stupidity and lies. Of course they're not all on board the "academic freedom bills" and Expelled, yet the more intellectual ones are mostly ignoring these colossal displays of pig-ignorance and attempts to spread their own stupidity, while the active members are pushing these.

I wouldn't want to heap praise on Buckley or anything like that (some of his proposals, like tattoing AIDS victims, sounded totally medieval), but it does seem that he was able to start a movement suggesting that a person could be intelligent and conservative.

His successors are either paralyzed in letting the stupid set the agenda, or are actively promoting the equations conservative=stupid, religious=stupid.

Such intellectual suicide might make many liberals happy, but I happen to think that an intelligent conservatism, and an intelligent leftism (like that has been politically viable on a national scale in the last 50 years), are all to the good in political discourse. But conservatism seems to be doing what liberalism could never do, show that really existing conservatism is so much ineffectual elitism and grossly stupid campaigns against science and intelligent thought.

If others celebrate, fine. I would prefer that engaging intelligence exists across the political spectrum, however, and the right seems to have given up on intelligent conservatism altogether (hint, conservatives, this would mean actually protesting right-wing idiocy and anti-intellectualism--not just a bad review of Expelled in National Review several weeks after it opens, which I do expect). As their political fortunes fall, they seem intent on their own total destruction as an intellectual force, and I don't suppose there's much chance that they can be saved from themselves.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7

Wow, looks like "Expelled the Movie" has already had an impact...lol...Prohibits students from being penalized for subscribing to a particular position on evolution

Is the young man who made up his theories in a "filthy, inane" manner in order to "punish his fellow classmates who can now openly question evolution in school? Whether you agree with a creationist or not, they do have a right to question evolution in the classroom.

Well it will be interesting to see what exactly, "other positions" towards evolution the teachers at that school will be presenting and how many special interest groups will try to influence that teacher to teach what they want. I believe this clause which prohibits students from being penalized for subscribing to a particular position on evolutionis a good idea especially what is happening already with some student who opposes creationism.

Although, I believe it's way better for creationism to be taught in the private schools which paid special interest groups can't touch, I find no problem with students standing up for creationism in the taxpayer funded schools.

Rick R. Here is one take on possible outcome of this bill in AZ.

http://arizona.typepad.com/blog/religion/index.html

There was also an anti-bullying and student discrimination clause that was struck down on it. I read it over and it seems on the surface pretty straight forward, but I can see many subtle possible abuses. Do some searching around and see some of the comments. I also sent an email to the ACLU asking their take on it.

What's the word on the sister bill in the house?

Thank His Noodly Appendage, we homeschool in Florida. I don't have to worry about some fundie teacher telling my son evolutionary biology is "only a theory". FWIW, I did email my objections to the bill. Just because we don't use the public school system doesn't mean we aren't concerned about the separation of church and state.

Floridamom,

Good job with your homeschooling, there is so much more freedom with schooling your kids in the private sector. Friends of mine some years ago, didn't have a teaching degree so they were kinda of hesitate of homeschooling but didn't want their kids being taught evolution and sex education from a worldly point of view. But when they tried it, their kids were testing 2-3 years ahead of the public schools. One of their kids graduated, testing at a 12th grade level at the age of 13. Government schools are in a spiral downturn producing horrible results compared to the rest of the world and not neutral at times when it comes to religion.

So who will be picking up the tab when it gets to court? I'm guessing school districts again?

Michael said:

Whether you agree with a creationist or not, they do have a right to question evolution in the classroom.

So will you have a problem if the same group of students, in their
physics class, start to question general and special relativity
as well?

Or are you just going to go back to talking about evolution again
as though you never heard the question?

I suspect you won't stop these kind of predatory debate tactics
until you are *personally* affected by the consequences of
such opportunism.

"She said teachers have suffered retribution from school authorities, and students have been the target of "denigrating comments" from other teachers."

I fail to see the problem here. When someone says something ridiculous, is it not our right - nay, responsibility - to offer ridicule?

If a student wants to offer a SCIENTIFIC alternative to the ToE, I say let him do so. BUT, the alternative must be more than simply 'goddidit'. It must contain research (or links to such), and clearly defined lines of reasoning, things we have seen TONS of in creationist papers appearing in ALL of the major Scientific journals over the last few years - oops, my bad...

So who will be picking up the tab when it gets to court? I'm guessing school districts again?

IMO, the Florida state legislature should cover it.

*

Michael is apparently unfamiliar with the aphorism, "The plural of anecdote isn't 'data'." I've got stories about the dark side of homeschooling that'll make you wish that "government" schools were mandatory, but I'm not going to pretend that these stories are definitive or that they mean anything more (or less) than what they demonstrate: that some parents use homeschooling as a means to keep their children as ignorant as they are themselves.

Well, Michael's a one-note commenter with a weak grasp of logic and a distain for facts:

Government schools are in a spiral downturn producing horrible results compared to the rest of the world and not neutral at times when it comes to religion.

Horrible? Define "horrible". Define "the rest of the world." Are our students testing below students from, say, Norway? In some subjects, yes. How about Somalia? (Does Somalia even have schools?)

Michael spews oops, sorry, we're on a "spew moratorium" for a few weeks - spouts whatever hyperbolic claims he feels will support his opinions, but backing them up with facts doesn't seem to appear on his list of priorities. Are American students the best-performing group in the world? No, but they're no worse than average in any subject when compared to students from other industrialized nations, and somewhat above average overall.

Feh. That doesn't evaluate to "horrible", no matter how you try to spin it.

It is true that public schools aren't at all times entirely neutral on the subject of religion. How could they be, in what it still a predominantly Christian culture? Every school is closed on December 25th, and many are closed - or let out early - on Good Friday.

By the way, they are "public schools", not "government schools". The phrase "government schools" is for people who say things like "Democrat party." Of course, Michael, you are one of those people, so hey - knock yourself out.

Our schools will only get progressively worse if people like you get your way. Your anti-public-education agenda is obvious, and you bring nothing to the table that's of any use to any of the issues being examined here. Sorry, but hey - unlike you, I wouldn't lie about something as important as this.

From the Sun-Sentinel:

Sen. Ronda Storms, R-Valrico, said she filed the bill after hearing cases of students and teachers who felt "muzzled" and unable to discuss alternate theories in the classroom.

Can anyone tell me which alternate theories Sen. Storms is referring to here? I know, not a fair question, there are no alternate scientific theories. I'd actually have a modicum of respect for her if she just came out and admitted she wants creationism taught in Florida public school science classes.

Take up my battle cry, brothers and sisters:

Teach the accuracy!

Michael at 28
"schools are in a spiral downturn producing horrible results compared to the rest of the world and not neutral at times when it comes to religion."

Schools are in a spiral downturn because the republican administration (which you probably voted for) has decreased their funding to a deplorable level.

Couldn't some of the harm be undone if the opposing bill

1) defined science

2) placed guidelines which all opinions must adhere to in order for a theory to be presented. i.e., scientific evidence, veracity, timeliness, etc.

I'm sure there is are many people here who would are able to provide the wording and submit it as a suggestion to the committee.

#36 Kay,

I agree with you, and I'd gladly volunteer to help. If this bill isn't really pro-creationism, then a rigorous definition should be no problem, right?

If high schools start teaching pseudoscience we may have to beef up the science requirements on college admissions tests. If the students are penalized with low scores for their poor preparation (as they should be) the parents may see how they are handicapping their own kids and work to reverse this trend.

me @36

Sorry for the bad editing!

Should say...

Couldn't some of the harm be undone if the opposing bill:

1) defined science

2) placed guidelines to which all opinions must adhere in order for a theory to be presented. i.e., scientific evidence, veracity, timeliness, etc.

I'm sure there are many people here who are able to provide the wording and submit it as a suggestion to the committee.

http://www.startribune.com/local/17406054.html?page=1&c=y

Just wondered what the group felt about this story of a Muslim Charter School in Inver Grove Heights MN? Sounds like it's a publicly funded religious school...

Well, that went well, didn't it? And now it goes to full Senate vote. How sad it will be, if the bill does pass, a Florida child's best science education will come from a trip to Epcot Center.

Schools are in a spiral downturn because the republican administration (which you probably voted for) has decreased their funding to a deplorable level.

Are you blaming Bush for the woes of public education? lol What did he do besides being a "republican?" During the Clinton administration it wasn't very good either. The world was testing much further ahead with less money than the United States. Clinton introduced the "global village" for education and promoted the "look say or known also the whole word method" in reading which originally was used for deaf people. It created many dis-functional readers. You wonder why "hooked of phonies" got so popular during the 90's? lol

It created many dis-functional[sic] readers.

case in point.

You're not exactly qualified to comment on the literacy of others...

What bush did was something called NCLB, or Negation, Creation, Litigation and Bastardization.

Sorry, Ich, was talking to Michael

I'm actually starting to get quite scared of the rise of religious fundamentalism in the US now - more so than in the far east. It's going to be used to excuse a LOT of bad things in the future I fear. Please do something!

Sorry, Ich, was talking to Michael

No worries; was clear to me.

#46: "Please do something!"

I would like to suggest constant ridicule of all religious beliefs. A relentless attack on their idiotic beliefs including the Resurrection and of course magical creation. Pro-science people should visit Christian blogs and attack them. Also, Christians should be attacked in the blogs of public newspapers. The religious extremists are totally out of control in America and I'm quite sick of it. It's time to stop being respectful. The Christian war against science education must be stopped, no matter what it takes to put an end to it.

May I suggest something here. I am looking across from Europe and constantly wondering why you US citizens fail to notice the obvious factor in all this creationism nonsense.
That factor is that it is not a question of science versus religion.
It is a question of sectarian protestant creationism versus everything else.
The US has a problem with large numbers of evangelicals in its population but at the same time it also has even larger numbers from other religions that do not subscribe to the Flintstones version of history - or the idea that they are personally destined for an eternal fiery torture chamber no matter what they do in their life if they don't convert to fundamental protestantism.
Make it plain that creationism is anti-catholic, anti-jewish, anti- episcopalian and anti-unitarian.
Get rid of the false dichotomy that allows it to exist -
Call it 'protestant creationism' whenever you speak of it.
Remember the famous willingness of US citizens to 'fair play' or hear 'both sides of the story' is a disadvantage if you pretends there are just two sides.
If you make it plain that there are 100 or 1000 sides then it becomes obvious that you have to put a limit or a quality control mechanism in place to decide which side to teach.
The reason creationism never got off the ground in Europe in the past 150 years is that it is basically the religious belief of one particular protestant subgroup and we all recognize it as such. Its not the religious viewpoint of most religions in Europe and its very advocacy is seen as an attack on these religions.
Think of it this way, there are at most 15% of Americans who are non religious (and probably less than that).
On the other hand the fundamentalist proportion of the US population is about 34% (27% evangelical and 7% historical Black churches) compared to 44% of the population who are mainline Protestant or Catholic.
You don't need to get the Catholics or mainline protestants on your side.
You just need to get them to realize that the fundamentalists are not on their side.
Its only by turning this into a religion versus religion battle that you have a chance to succeed in the medium term.

#28 Michael
We don't homeschool because we think "government schools are in a downward spiral". We do it because we feel it's the best fit for our son and for our family's lifestyle.

If he was in school however, I'd want him to be taught evolution and sex education. My comment about being glad we homeschool was anti-creationist and anti-religious, not anti-public school.

FM: Yeah, Michael's kind of one-issue, if it's not about how horrible the public education system is, he twists it until it is.

I assume he went through the public school system in order to develop such an antipathy to it, and so it's typical that he hasn't realised that he's the best evidence for his own position

Sigmund: Now that's a frame I can live with.

Michael wants to eviscerate public education so that only the people who can afford private schools will have educated children. The rest will sink down to Michael's level. The only thing that matters to him is his own personal experience; he'll distort the truth and promote falsehood to promote his "vision". Notice how he completely ignored my comments about the USA's academic standing amongst its peer nations, and instead went in for a little Clinton-bashing? Sweet! He's so consistent!

The problem, such as it is, cannot be ascribed to a single Administration, nor indeed solely to the actions of the federal government. A little bit of focused observation, coupled with the application of a little bit of pattern-recognition, reveals the shocking, I say shocking, fact that GOP leadership (at any and every level) tends to promote budget cut that negatively impact public education and human services, whereas Democratic leadership (at any and every level) tends to support funding of those institutions. Funding has an impact of the ability of those institutions to provide the services they're intended to provide.

File under: "No shit, Sherlock!"

The school budget in my hometown is highly dependent on the town budget. It's a local issue subject to local politics, but state and federal funding issues also play a part in the overall picture of public-education financial health.

The problem isn't so much how the USA does relative to the rest of the world, but rather the ever-widening gap between the good and the bad. Michael would like to euthanize the bad and privatize the good, a destructive approach that is at best short-sighted, at worst immoral.

Sigmund@49

What you suggest is correct however you have the argument in reverse. The scientific community is reacting to an attack on science by the creationists. The creationists are seeking to infiltrate science and our education system because by it's very nature science negates the creation fairy tale.

I don't think anyone of us wants to have to fight this ridiculous battle--especially when the argument is ludicrous. We would all prefer that the creationists go back to their caves and leave us alone. Unfortunately, they have pulled out all the stops. It is now a necessity that we defend the integrity of science, our schools and our country.

Believe me we completely understand the argument.

Can anyone tell me which alternate theories Sen. Storms is referring to here? I know, not a fair question, there are no alternate scientific theories. I'd actually have a modicum of respect for her if she just came out and admitted she wants creationism taught in Florida public school science classes.

No, believe me, as a resident of her district; there is no way someone on this board could have any respect for this human. It makes my brain-ghost hurt even admitting that we're the same species.

James F @37

That would be great. Maybe we can get PZ to put whatever you come up with out there for suggestions. Would you be willing to write something?

#55

Kay,

I sent a draft to the Florida Citizens for Science last night. There's going to be a big meeting on the 14th of scientists, educators, and attorneys, but in the meantime let me see what FCfS thinks, and I'll run that idea past them. Thanks!

It makes my brain-ghost hurt even admitting that we're the same species.

Now that was funny!   XD

lol, it's even funnier admitting you came from the same rock that somehow became alive later on...lol

My, what a funny strawman you've erected! What a funny idea! It's almost as funny as the notion that a magic man somehow made us from dust or clay, like so many animated mudpies or Gumbys. The universe is just some god's claymation epic!

"LOL"

Chapter 58, in which Michael is revealed as not only wingnut, but a creationist wingnut.

Michael, you've officially crossed the border into Дураград.

James F. @56

You Rock!