Oh, crap, no…not another poll

Well, they should both technically be allowed...but I'm assuming this poll means "allowed" as-in "teachers are allowed to pray/read the 10 commandments at students" rather than "students are allowed to pray during their free time."

I automatically have an issue with this question. The ten commandments should not be allowed in schools. However, I have no issue with students praying. So while I answered "No" the results are automatically charged because then it makes it look as if the "evil secularists" want to take away children's ability to pray.

Down to 90 and change when I looked.

It's such an out-of-context poll, not obviously related to any story. And as GDwarf implies, it might give the impression that a "no" vote means that we're not willing to allow students to pray or to have little idols of the 10 commandments in their desks. Naturally I wasn't voting against those.

That issue is rather passe at this time in any case. SCOTUS isn't about to allow school-mandated prayers, which are pretty useless in any case. Much better to teach that God designed us or some such rot, and it's easier to play word games with origins teaching anyway.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7

Down to 90 and change when I looked.

It's such an out-of-context poll, not obviously related to any story. And as GDwarf implies, it might give the impression that a "no" vote means that we're not willing to allow students to pray or to have little idols of the 10 commandments in their desks. Naturally I wasn't voting against those.

That issue is rather passe at this time in any case. SCOTUS isn't about to allow school-mandated prayers, which are pretty useless in any case. Much better to teach that God designed us or some such rot, and it's easier to play word games with origins teaching anyway.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7

Down to 82.9% and dropping like a stone.

Echoing #1 and #2... the question is ridiculously vague and unframed... Should prayer and Ten Commandments be allowed in public schools... heck no... but the question goes out of its way not to specify. Parochial schools are based on a religious foundation, and the parents spending their own money to send their kids there know this already... so I have no problem with it there.

Dammit I hate polls... especially intentionally vague and misleading polls that don't bother to take the time to be properly contextualized.

Nonetheless... I think the intent of the poll is clear in this case... so "NO" it is for me.

21.5 % now :)

now 77% and dropping.

Boy oh boy. Between ever-so-important rallying for license plates and commandments, when do Christians have time to get the little things - like prayer to their sovereign Lord and Savior - done?

If they spent a little less time on the window dressing and a little more time keeping their own houses in order, we'd all be happier. All this is a subtle way of saying, "I wish they would shut the hell up."

Must be a little fight back from somewhere, back up to 78.1 % now. Come on folks, let's put this one to bed.

Down again -- more worrying is that we missed an earlier poll:

Do you support a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage?

Results were 78.8% YES, from 1827 respondents

Obviously a bunch of fucktards responding there. Maybe they were all upset about the association of KY & gay sex!

Dr. Meyers, you're a genius! I stayed on that page for a minute, hitting refresh every 15 seconds or so. The numbers are changing rapidly.

Not sure if I've ever written here, although I do enjoy reading the post.

If I were a conservative christian (I'm not - no worries) and got wind of what this site was attempting to do to skew poll results, odds are I would try to rally like minded folks to do the same to swing them in the other direction.

That got me thinking - there likely are a set of sites / forums where fundamentalist folks converse on issues. Here's my question - what are those sites - in particular what are the sites that have active user forums? No better way to win an argument then to throughly know your opponent's reasons and train of thought.

Thanks in advance for anyone who comes up with some answers.

FYI

You can submit multiple times! (Yes now less than 65%)

Echoing #1, #2, and #6 (and I apologize if I forgot anyone), I remember an incredibly stupid e-mail that was forwarded to me that listed things teachers are expected to do. At the end it said, "We have to do all that but you won't allow us to pray?"
I didn't bother telling the sender that no one's preventing teachers--or anyone else--from praying. It's forcing others to pray along with them that they're not allowed to do, and, honestly, if they're so insecure they have to have everyone line up with their beliefs, they shouldn't be teaching.

I got my 50 votes in!

Yes is now down to 62.6% from 64.2% when I started -- they don't seem to be keeping tabs on IP addresses...

back, submit
back, submit
back, submit...

back... to work...

Suggestion for their next poll.

Should everyone who suggests a poll be required to actually know what they are talking about?

Down to 64% as of a few moments ago.

It's fun to just keep the poll on your screen and hit the refresh about every 20 seconds and see how fast the numbers are changing. It's kind of humbling to think of the power PZ wields.

Lucky thing he uses his genius for goodness instead of evil.

I'd like to be there when they lay out polls of this sort, because I'd ask, "Which ten commandments?"

Some say that the second commandment, as it appears in scripture (or at least its popular English translations) specifically forbids the making of all images, regardless of subject. Some sects take this seriously, but most don't. Many don't even list it as a commandment.

F5

...is that wrong?

59.4-40.4 and changing rapidly. Living in Kentucky, I can tell you that this is "God's country" in every sense of the word. We are home to the Creation Museum, dontcha know. The results of this poll and the gay marriage poll don't surprise me one bit. However, not all of us have such archaic ways of thinking. Although, sometimes, I think a few of my friends and myself are the only ones who don't.

This question fails due to vagueness.

Part 1: Should prayer be allowed in school?
Answer: Yes, students, teachers, and staff should be allowed to exercise their freedom of religion and pray if they feel the urge. However, public employees and public funds may not be used to proselytize or teach prayer, or to force students to pray.

Part 2: Should the Ten Commandments be allowed in school?
Answer: Yes. As far as I'm concerned, the 10 commandments and the Bible should be taught in school, along with the other so-called holy books of other cultures, but only in a class of literature, history, or comparative religion.

If you want your children to attend a school where these things are taught as dogma, then private school is the place for you.

So even though under the right conditions, I would answer yes to both aspects of the question, the question is so vague that I am forced to say no.

I wish I could surreptitiously get hold of that questionaire and change it to read: "Should prayer and the ten commandents when they are delivered by the UFO's from the galaxy Dementia be allowed in public schools?" "If not, would you accept delivery by Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy?" We might as well be silly or nasty when it involves this insanity.

posting 30 now.. it`s all so pointless, but it is fun :)

What is the definition of allowed? They are both already "allowed". Students can pray (without disrupting others) anytime they want. Teachers can pray (without influencing students and co-workers) anytime they want. The Ten Commandments? Students: Keep a plaque in your locker, paste a copy in your folders, wear it on a t-shirt. Teachers: Keep a copy in your pocket, keep one in your personal folders. No one is ever going to take away your personal right to possess these things.

Those are "allowed". People are not allowed to: put a plaque in the lobby, lead a prayer over the intercom, post them in the classroom, stop the class for a moment of prayer.

In other words: Forcing them onto others is NOT allowed.

I hate intentionally charged questions. (Do you still beat your children? Yes or no, only)

Re: I didn't bother telling the sender that no one's preventing teachers--or anyone else--from praying.

Unless they use non-Government-Approved sacraments to do so.

Echoing #1, #2, and #6 (and I apologize if I forgot anyone), I remember an incredibly stupid e-mail that was forwarded to me that listed things teachers are expected to do. At the end it said, "We have to do all that but you won't allow us to pray?"
I didn't bother telling the sender that no one's preventing teachers--or anyone else--from praying. It's forcing others to pray along with them that they're not allowed to do, and, honestly, if they're so insecure they have to have everyone line up with their beliefs, they shouldn't be teaching.

Since they're so busy, you'd think teachers would be glad they don't have to waste class time forcing their students to talk to invisible friends.

Lucky thing he uses his genius for goodness instead of evil.

Bwahahahaha! You're all in training. Wait until a certain Tuesday in November when I tell everyone to go out to another poll and how to vote…and everyone writes in "PZ Myers" for World Tyrant King!

Of course I think not only should prayers be allowed, students should be encouraged to face Mecca and pray the requisite number of times per day.

Or do you suppose that's not what they meant?

The poll just reflects the simple minded nature and lack of understanding of the real issue here. The mouth breathing, soundbite fed, knuckledragging masses think (and I use that word very loosely) that by not allowing teachers to preach their particular flavor of religion in class, that we evil, baby eating secularists are trying to stop any and all mention of gawd, or the lard, or the IPU, or even that carb-loaded-upstart FSM in a classroom, and even keep them from praying before their test on how to balance a checkbook.

The worst part is that there are some school administrators who believe what BillO and other rightwing demogogues tell them and actually try to stop kids from praying, bringing their bible to school, or whatever. This, of course, feeds into the idea that it's our fault somehow, that they've been lying douchbags all this time and are creating their own problems.

Sorry for the rant (not really!).

Cheers.

Maybe not entirely pointless though... People see different views, it cannot be all bad...

PZ: Why would you want to be king of "World Tyrants"? And isn't that an hereditary post? I thought the elected position was "President for Life: World Tyrants, Inc"

Thank you! Despite having the damn Creation Museum down the street, we really aren't that dumb. It was down to 53%.

One of the surprising things for bible literalists is that the 10 commandments they WANT to put up everywhere were actually broken and a new set released by god'n'moses.

They had a great new surrealist line like 'You shalt not boil a goat in it's mother's milk'

Pity that the so-called literalists can't even follow the bible, as C'est ne pas un pipe is a damn better idea than the genocide and child abuse that the old fashioned version has.

Oh, just standard issue supervillain megalomania. We don't ask why, we just strive to dominate.

And the 'nays' have it!

50.2% - 49.6%

Yay, Team!

49.8% Yes
50.0% No

The forces of reason pull ahead!

Egad. Prayer and the Ten Commandments currently are allowed in public schools. (And ought to be.)

But that's not what they meant by the question, so I voted No.

We should have a email list for this kind of fun... i`m sure someone could organise a simple script for that.

Refresh, refresh, refresh! 51.2!

Yes - 48.4%
No - 51.4%
Undecided - 0.2%

Phayngulated

The No votes are slightly ahead, but yeah, it's a crappy poll. Should prayer be allowed in school, I think it's worthless, but sure. Should teacher-led or mandatory prayer ba allowed - absolutely not. Should the 10 commandments, whichever of the three (or maybe more) versions that is, only in the sense of religious history (as in, Judaism and Christianity claim to follow these 10c, which they claim to have originated...even if no evidence for these claims exist). Should they be given a hallowed spot in schools - absolutely not.

52.1% NO.

"Should prayer and the Ten Commandments be allowed in schools?"

They could have asked instead "Should we throw out the constitution and make America a theocracy?" Apparently that's what a few million Americans want.

If you look at the polls on this news page, they appear to capitalize on hot-button topics. That said, I am a little disappointed in PZ's comment about Kentuckians and their need for "image" help. This thread, even more so than that poll, conjures up unfortunate stereotypes of Kentuckians as barefoot, bucktooth hillbillies with no worldly sense. I don't think the pre-Pharayngula results of this poll would shift much had it been sponsored by regional news stations in Oregon, Virginia, or Michigan. The God-fearing are everywhere and stupidity respects no boundaries.

So can we PLEASE stop harping on Kentuckians (and I'll throw in West Virginians for good measure)? They are beautiful states with respectable academic communities and yes, educational and economic challenges. If we spent as much time brainstorming solutions as we do in biting condemnation based on unsubstantiated prejudice, I think we might have solved all these problems by now.

PZ, I'd like to request that whenever you post about an onilne poll you include its current results at the time of your post, just as you did on this one. I like to see how the results change as your readers click on through to register their legion opinions.

Looks like they've already taken down the poll.

Yep, they replaced the poll just as I was submitting my "No". The new poll is "With gas so high, should employers consider letting employees work 4 days a work week to help with the expense of driving to and from work?"

"Looks like they've already taken down the poll."

No, I just checked. The poll is still there. No - 57.9%.

Charles Sane, how is simply voting in an open poll "skewing" it? Unless, of course, the poll was designed to elicit responses only from people supporting one side of the question.

I checked again, and now I see the poll has been replaced. I wonder why. Perhaps they didn't like the results.

I just voted, the poll was there at 1:20 central time
yes 41%
No 58%

Hmm. I wonder if Kentuckians would agree to teach the Koran, Torah, Mul Mantra, etc. as well?

Hmm... Yup, the poll is gone. 12:27 Mountain time.

Yep - I just went there to vote and now it's something about whether or not employers should let employees go to 4-day work weeks to save on gas.

They know they've been PZ-spanked, I bet...

PZ

Why stop at just the world? There's a whole wide universe out there for you to dominate. Of course, there are a few other nominees for the post, but I think you stand a good chance on an on-line poll.

What's that smell? Oh yeah, Victory.

Bwahahahaha! You're all in training. Wait until a certain Tuesday in November when I tell everyone to go out to another poll and how to vote...and everyone writes in "PZ Myers" for World Tyrant King!

PZ, do you ever feel just a little bit like Willard?

Blah blah commandments blah blah blah.

Prayer in school? Sure.

I love to hear someone say "We need prayer in (or back in) school." I reply, "There is nothing that prevents a student or teacher from praying in school. But that's not what you want. You just want everybody to pray to your god."

I have yet to hear a sound argument refuting that. The responses generally are non-sequitur replies degenerating into "good-old days", "christian nation", "poor, persecuted majority", "god is on our money" and other bullshit.

Ten Commandments posted in schools? OK, but only on Sundays, (Saturdays for yeshivas). - Oh, but that's so wrong!

Boooooo they took down the poll before I could get to it. As a Kentuckian I can assure you, we're not all that dumb!!! There are several bastions of academia and culture in the state, but there are some incredible dismal regions where 'reedin ain't impoortent'.

Yes, the poll has been replaced.

I have to agree with most people that prayer should be allowed in schools because you can't stop people from praying silently to themselves, nor should you try. However, we should not permit public displays of prayer, either by teachers or by students, because they are disruptive to the educational process. If you want to fold your hands and pray silently, be my guest. You want to stand on your desk and rant? Go to hell.

The same goes for the Ten Commandments. They are a part of history and if taught that way, I have no problem with it. If taught that these are the rules for living, handed down by God, screw off.

Oh, and final poll numbers on the prayer/Ten Commandments thing:

Yes: 41.1%
No: 58.7%
Undecided: 0.2%

Did anyone else notice the link to Focus on the Family? Obviously this is a totally non-biased media outlet running this poll.

Oh, and final poll numbers on the prayer/Ten Commandments thing:

Yes: 41.1%
No: 58.7%
Undecided: 0.2%

We come, we vote, they pull the poll.

Seriously though, what is the point? They put a poll out on the web for anyone and everyone to vote, it generates traffic, which I would presume is a good thing and then they take it down because it doesn't reflect their predetermined outcome.

How childish. It reminds me of the kid on the playground that takes his ball and goes home when he doesn't win.

My guess is they do polls like this to bump the site's click rate, and perhaps to grab some IP addresses.

Allow prayer on breaks, and they better not be led by teachers. I don't care. But not at the start of class. Children should learn to not waste their time talking to themselves when they should be doing maths, even if it's just for a minute.

There are a lot of archived polls on that site. I think it just filled up its alloted time and got recycled.

Some devoted Pharyngulite should go back through the Pharyngula archives and ferret out all the polls and collect the results together. These religion polls usually get aced by unbelievers but then just vanish. It would be worthwhile to do an article on them, with the surprising results, to show what people REALLY think about such subjects.

It's not as if you can stop people from praying... No, prayer shouldn't be forbidden, so long as it's done privately and silently. When I was in grade school in the 80's/early 90's, we had a "moment of silence". There was no more said about it, no explanations, just about a minute of quiet time for whatever.

I distinctly remember one of my girlfriends having to leave the damn room though every time the pledge of allegiance was said, as her family was Islamic and didn't want her being saying a pledge that included a god she didn't believe in. Everybody whispered about her and her brother, called their parents unamerican, and stared when she left the room. Kids do that kind of mean stuff, always have, always will.

I have no problem with prayer in schools, so long as it's not required, part of the curriculum, talked about or otherwise made into an attention-grabbing issue. Kids should never be singled out or made the object of gossip because of their personal beliefs or those of their families. They should work harder on ensuring that freedom.

Poll results:
Yes - 41.0%
No - 58.7%
Undecided - 0.2%
Total Responses - 2005

I keep missing these polls until they have been pulled, how about a special place just for us poll junkies?

thank you kindly

A "moment of silence" should not be allowed in public schools because everyone knows what it's suppose to be for, talking to an invisible supernatural friend. There should never be any compromise with Christian extremists who want to throw out the constitution.

For the same reason the pledge of allegiance should not be allowed as long it has "under magic man" in it.

PZ, I'd like to request that whenever you post about an onilne poll you include its current results at the time of your post, just as you did on this one. I like to see how the results change as your readers click on through to register their legion opinions.

Nice idea, but as a blogger, I have to say that this is the sort of thing that will make this sort of posting less desirable. One does not always have the time.

What I suggest is this: Whoever gets to that poll first, please record where it is at. Don't ask PZ to do it. He's doing enough with just posting it.

And, no, this is not PZ pretending to be someone else. Well, maybe, but you can't prove it.

BobC, I disagree. I'm as atheisty as an atheist can get, but I'm ok with a moment of silence when someone has died, etc. Fact is, MOST kids in the average school are not going to be praying during that moment. They going to be sneering at their friend, or just impatiently waiting for the moment to be over, or being glad to have a moment not to have to think about math or whatever.

It's perfectly fine to have a moment to "pay your respects" to whoever died, or "quietly contemplate" or what have you. What the hell.

For a death of a student, which occurs in the average school about once every 100 years, I'm OK with one moment of silence, even though it's an unnecessary waste of time. When it's a daily event, it's nothing more than sucking up to Christian extremists who want to throw out the First Amendment.

BobC, I disagree. I'm as atheisty as an atheist can get, but I'm ok with a moment of silence when someone has died, etc.

The moment of silence I believe he is referring to is not the one for when someone dies. There is/was a suggestion to just have a moment of silence at the beginning of every day for students to use to pray... or not.

I didn't read all the comments, so maybe this has been covered previously. However, just to get my $0.02 in:

I don't have a problem with public schools "allowing" the 10 commandments and prayer, although I suppose a great deal hinges on what is meant by "allow."

First, I think courses in comparative religion would be one step in reducing the amount of Christian-dumb in our education system. Polemics aside, it's still a topic of relevant cultural and educational interest. Of course, these classes would have to be religiously-neutral, and present the ten commandments in contrast to the rules and regs of other religions, so that students could see that their particular religion really isn't anything all that new or unique (or morally superior, or literally true, etc).

Second, prayer is not now, nor has it ever been, illegal or outlawed in public schools. There are rules governing if and when a school employee can lead or participate in such events, but it is not illegal for anyone to pray as a matter of personal and private choice. I do have a problem with polls that are so poorly-worded and inadequately-constructed as to be pointless (at best) and divisive (at worst).

It's just that Christians will try every sneaky way possible to get prayer and religion into schools.

BobC #76:

My high school is fairly average, as far as I can tell. I've been teaching there for 8 years and there have been 1, 2, or 3 students die each year. Mostly traffic accidents, but two shot and one suicide. We're getting pretty good at moments of silence.

# 72

how about a special place just for us poll junkies?

Hold on, I 'll have to consult my Dante's Guide....

it seems to be somewhere between the third and fourth levels

Re: Mark in #78

Unfortunately, we all know that "comparative religion" classes would never be allowed to fly in public schools, not by atheists and secularists, but by Christians. They don't want comparative religions, they want Christianity. Comparative religions will look at the religion as myth, they demand that it's taught as fact.

It's like friends of mine who had a kid in a public school that allowed the class valedictorian to lead a prayer at graduation, up until their kid, an avowed atheist, was class valedictorian. Amazingly, they rescinded the rule that year.

Christians only support it so long as it's THEIR religion that gets pushed.

Ah, July 7 - the day PZ Myers went from ordinary villainy to cartoonish super-villainy.

Re: Cephus in #82

We had classes in comparative religion at my high school. Of course, that was in the way-way-back of 1987 (my bones, they are a-creakin'). The teacher was a no-nonsense type who didn't take any fundie cr*p, insisting that you could make whatever argument you wanted, but you had to argue logically and with proof. I never took her class, but the word on campus was that she was one of the hardest and best teachers in the faculty. So I think it can be done, and it ought to be done, and we uppity, baby-eating atheists and secular humanists (TM) ought to be the ones pushing for it.

No, it would never fly. You're right. But it would put them on the defensive, for once, and it would knock a lot of wind out of the sails of these so-called "academic freedom" bills. I think a lot of the dangers of religious nationalism will be mitigated once their rabid, bigoted insanity is brought out in the light for everyone to see, without all the spin-doctoring (or framing, which I know is a four-letter word here) and pretentious double-talk. You can only put so much gold paint on a turd before the stink catches up with you.

Then again, I'm still something of an idealist. I still think that people won't eat their own feces if given a choice.

My feces are delicious, back off Mark.

The palatability of one's waste
Is strictly a matter of personal taste
Though if you try another's
You're probably bound to get maced.

(Sorry. I'm at work. It just came to me in the midst of revising a workflow).

I really hate my home state sometimes. Mostly whenever I think about science or politics. It's sad too because we have a top notch research facility at UK and... well we have a democratic party, but it's a little too good ol' boy to get anything worthwhile done.

It's not there anymore. :-(

My Kung Fu school used to have a moment of silence, for "meditation". But the Christians complained, cuz it was blasphemy of some such. So I started calling it "concentration", and the complaints stopped. Of course, I always used my secret ninja mind reading powers to make sure no one was secretly doing "prayer".
Even though some of the methods came straight from the early christian ascetics.

Perhaps these pollsters are much like modern American conservatives who routinely deny, ignore, or declare nonexistent findings that run counter to their worldview.

Amusing - - - the poll was up until somebody discovered it wasn't reflecting the "correct" bias, then it was pulled - but too late, the 'damage' had been done.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

@89:

Of course it is blasphemy, they're actually using their brain to do something OTHER than suck the cock of their deity.

Here's a poll for you, and I've been watching it over the past few days go from %80 skeptic to now %49 skeptic, only ~1700 votes though.

Tonight Australians will be asked to pack their brains away and tune in to "The One" *spooky hands*

Seven of 'Australia's top psychics' will be put through a number of tests to determine who is 'The One' in a 'Idol' like talent show...

The rest of the blurb, and the poll are on the website
here: http://au.tv.yahoo.com/b/the-one/

Am I getting old and grumpy, or are people getting stupider?

Uh, yes, 92% of Kentuckians are that dumb.

These always brighten my day.. I don't know why, but viewing the results is always so uniquely satisfying.