I'm afraid the odious Oklahoma legislator, Sally Kern, has opened her mouth again. She has declared herself a "cultural warrior for Judeo-Christian values. I despise the term "Judeo-Christian" — it's so fake, and such a transparent attempt to tie morality to religion. So what are these "Judeo-Christian" values?
"I am not saying everyone has to be Christian; this is not a homogenous nation," Kern said. "What you have to be is someone who believes in a Judeo-Christian ethic, in other words, in knowing there's a right and wrong.
That's it? Knowing that some things are bad to do and others are good is all there is? Pagans, heathens, wiccans, atheists, Muslims, and animists all know that; dogs seem to feel guilt, and we could even argue that jellyfish are able to see the world in these kinds of binary terms. So why pretend Jews and Christians invented it?
Oh…because she has to have an absolutist rational for parochial fundagelical American bigotry.
"Not all lifestyles are equal; not all religions are equal," she said. "Was I saying all people are not equal? Heavens no; we were all created equal."
Kern repeated her opposition to gay marriage and homosexuality, though the lawmaker said she supports people's individual rights.
Pssst, Oklahomans: Vote for Ron Marlett this fall. Anyone but Bughouse Sally, please.
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Right and wrong? No problem. This is wrong
See, easy.
Damn - chimps know Right from Wrong.
But then that's the headspace we're dealing with here...
CD
So, two people of the same gender having consentual sex is a greater threat than someone walking into a shopping mall strapped with explosives? If that's "Judeo-Christian" ethics, then I'll gladly pass.
And it's not just goodness and virtue that they claim to have invented.
They also claim birth and death and marriage, just because they've set up rituals around these things. It's all been going on for millions of years before religion, but they think it belongs to them now.
If those fundies succeed in getting intolerance enshrined, they're going to be amazed at how fast it can turn and be aimed at them. It's like watching an idiot with matches and fireworks.
If those fundies succeed in getting intolerance enshrined, they're going to be amazed at how fast it can turn and be aimed at them
IF???????
her words display everything utterly wrong with a parochial religious view.
what a condescending, patronising, silly fucking witch.
its funny how her words simultaneously eliminate her from getting votes because 1)what she says is indefensible and
2)shows she is quite, quite stupid.
Oh, fiddlesticks. Not this "Judeo-Christian ethic" bullshit again; we're already getting a lot of that back here in Dutchland politics. Someone needs to tell the people going off about it that to the extent that it is ethical, it is not uniquely Christian; and to the extent that it is Christian, it is fairly fucking reprehensible.
Religious people are always blathering about equality, when what they really mean, unknowingly, is they want commonality. They crave validation for their incomprehensible world view because they can't support it with anything else but other people's beliefs. If enough people believe it, then it must be right.
Judeo Christian ethics; that's two mistakes in three words, Judaism and Christianity are two separate religions, and neither of them know a damn thing about ethics.
Yes, because no ethnic group on the planet other than 2 out of the 3 Abrahamic religions managed to develop any sort of significant moral or ethical framework within their cultures.
And where exactly in the bible do either Moses or Jesus praise democracy?
Fucking idiot.
OT
On "All Things Considered" on National Public Radio this afternoon there will be a story on Camp Inquiry, the summer camp for agnostic and atheistic children. I expect it--and the feedback, especially--to be interesting.
Judeo Christian is code for anti-gay and anti-abortion, the two obsessions of morons like Ms Kern. The code language is so silly, but millions believe it. Religion succeeds on the notion that if enough people believe it, it must be true.
Only an ignorant christian (or should I say Judeo-Christian) can contradict heself so obtusely and get away with it (with most people, anyway).
I was talking to a friend of mine (a christian) about raising children and about my views on religion (I'm an athiest) and she said something that floored me. She said that she was raised as a christian so that she would grow up having values and grow up to be a good person. I couldn't believe that someone could be so arrogant to believe that just because they are christian they have morals and anyone else doesn't. The ignorance of some people astounds me.
The important thing to remember is when people like this say "morality" they mean "sex".
They don't think its immoral for a company to pay its workers less than a living wage. Back in the era of Jim Crow they didn't think it was immoral for blacks to be brutally oppressed. They don't think its immoral that Bush's war has killed a truly horrifying number of Iraqis.
Morality, the way they use the word, means nothing but obedience to their sexual taboos.
There is, of course, such a thing as absolute morality, and it shows that Ms. Kern and her ilk are immoral.
Ugh, this is why I plan on moving from Oklahoma ASAP. At least the governor here vetoed the stupid "teachers can't mark answers wrong because it may offend a religion" law, or also known as the "how can we sneak in Intelligent Design" law.
Is anti-Semitism a Judeo-Christian value?
"because she has to have an absolutist rational for parochial fundagelical American bigotry."
pssst: that's rationale (not "rational").
Otherwise, good post.
Why is it that when I hear people like Sally Kern say "Judeo-Christian values", I always imagine them with a cartoonish thought bubble over their heads that reads, "but the Jews killed baby Jesus."
Hmmm. She pretty much is a distilation of the majority of Okies to me.
Yes I know there are good folk there too, just not the majority. I lived for 4 years in Tulsa, Blowjob Roberts university was down the road and a cultural highpoint to many: they would actually point it out to me as a place they were proud of.
I left a fishing club i belonged to when the pres declared that Hurricane Katrina was caused by gays and some god's wrath.WTF? He was a degreed biologist who worked for the local wildlife depatment there.Yes they have the potential to do better, we all do as humans, I just think they lack the willpower and even worse, the desire:Too many churches not enough decency.
My son is still stuck there through ties to his wife's family.
Ahh well, hope is good too.
Would someone mind telling me what judeo-christian values are? I keep hearing about how this country was based on those values but whenever I ask for details or examples or proof I always wind up empty. Democracy doesn't seem to be one of those values. Neither does freedom of speech, press, or religion. Same is true of our opinions on privacy, fair trials, and our system of governmental checks and balances. The only "value" I've been able to find is the permissibility of using violence against those who are different because they are different. It's very common in judeo-christian history and (unfortunately) this country's history.
Hi!
I want to share something that happend/found out yesterday.
I have a girlfriend which i love more when anything. She should be about 3rd months pregnant now and her father just died in cancer so she took 10 days to herself to go to Italy... That is what she told me. The truth is a bit different.
I found out yesterday that she was in SPAIN (another country) with her, listen to this... HUSBAND!
The woman i love, that says she loves me and am suppose to have a baby with is married. Now i dont know what was true or false, i dont know what to do with my life, i lost everything. How could she keep it secret? Was i that stupid and blind.
I just needed to tell someone and there alot of bright readers here. Im sorry im looking into the wall and dont know what to do with my life.
Slightly off-topic:
I've been conversing with an online friend now for 4 years. He lives up in the Great White North, and has much to say about politics and religion and common sense.
He recently declared himself a weak atheist, and almost at the same time, that he wants to get into politics.
I'm pretty sure the discussions and debates he and I have had have been helping him forumlate strategies and solidiy his ideas. I'm not an atheist (cautious deist is more accurate), but I really enjoy talking with him and exchanging ideas.
All of this is to say: as individuals, it's possible to fight the fundies by having an influence over people who will be in a position to lead. For me, this is far better than reading the comments of Senator Kern and gnashing my teeth at the idiocy.
Just one wee point about the difference between judaism and christianity: Judaism is a monotheistic religion. No "son o'god", no "holy ghost". One god, that's all.
Christianity is entirely incompatible with judaism, despite its plagiarism of the Torah.
-jcr
I hereby declare my intent to fit "Judo-Christian" into conversation as many times as inappropriately possible in the next week.
Democrats in Kansas are also good at gay-bashing.
Via Archy:
A last minute anti-gay campaign helped a Kansas Democrat eke out a victory in yesterday's statehose primary. The concern trolls who have been telling the Democrats that we need to embrace the religious right's "family values" narrative must be happy today.
Governor Sibelius failed to respond to requests to denounce the gay-bashing candidate.
What's the matter with Kansas?
. . . dogs seem to feel guilt . . . .
???
Atheism makes you stoopid.
If you read the law Code of Hammurabi it becomes obvious that it is firmly grounded in the Judeo-Christian ethic [que chorus of angels] of right and wrong. That it predates the Judeo-Christian religious tradition is truly a miracle.
I left a fishing club i belonged to when the pres declared that Hurricane Katrina was caused by gays and some god's wrath.
I would have asked him why god didn't destroy New Orleans back around 1900 when it was far more decadent than it is today. Is god a procrastinator?
-jcr
@Terrence
Did you just mistake pharyngula for a forum on relationship issues?
If you are actually in the situation you describe, good luck trying to get yourself on the road again.
"The foundation of morality should not be made dependent on myth nor tied to any authority lest doubt about the myth or about the legitimacy of the authority imperil the foundation of sound judgment and action."
(Words of Wisdom from Albert Einstein)
Hmm Tulsa. . that's funny. I have an acquaintance who is a month shy of moving down to Tulsa, OK. The great amusement of that is he went on and on about how MN was too non-progressive. We don't teach evolution in schools, that we are extremely racist and we're probably homophobic as well. And he's EXCITED to move to Tulsa. I'm sorry, did I miss something?
What?
Kern doesn't practice right and wrong. Well, let's be more specific: Kern practices the wrong, the evil, the falsehoods and dishonesty we hope can be wrung out of politics.
How about basic honesty? Isn't that right? Kern fails on the most basic score.
Does she think that makes her an atheist or something? She doesn't have the natural honor to claim the title of "atheist."
Kern is such a nut in so many ways.
#27: "'. . . dogs seem to feel guilt . . . .'
???
Atheism makes you stoopid."
No it doesn't. Some work has been done that seems to show that dogs have a basic theory of mind, so it's quite possible that they feel guilt as well. Dogs certainly know when they've done something the rest of their pack (i.e. their humans) considers to be against the rules, and even look guilty and ashamed. I know my dogs always did.
An exemplary rebuttal. Well done.
Some of those commenters scare me more than the article itself. :(
I can't vote for Mr. Marlett as I live in a different district, but my representative is Al McAffrey, who is - gasp! - openly gay. Yes, here in Oklahoma. How he and Ms. Kern get along I couldn't say.
Around here, if you do something folks approve of, you may be told that 'that was very Christian of you'. I should have told the lady who said that my adopting my daughter was a 'Christian thing to do' that I am an atheist. It would have been amusing to watch her head explode. Oh, I guess that's not very Christian of me!
OK, here's a somewhat OT question I've been meaning to ask for a while now:
What is the difference between a Deist and a Theist?
Only marginally OT.
More Kansas weirdness: God is punishing Canada
Why do I sense that somebody is about to run afoul of Canada's hate laws?
@ Celandine:
There once was a queer from Kharthoum
Who took a dyke up to his room
They argued all night
Over who had the right
To do what, with what, and to whom
Thank you, I'll be here all week, and remember to tip your waitress.
Loudon@27,
Where do you think the phrase "tail between your legs" came from? Have you ever owned a dog (in particular, German Shephards are good for seeing apparently guilt-ridden behaviors)?
Posted by: rarus.vir | August 7, 2008 9:01 AM
I think you nailed it right there. They prepetually seek out external valiadtion and support for their specific set of beliefs, and I would add the caveat that those efforts are usually not guided in all means by adherence to truth. It is funny to me that someone that espouses "Judeo-Christian" ethics and morality sees no problem with such wilful intellectual - and sometimes even factual - dishonesty.
There have been **cough cough** rumors about the lifestyle preferences of her son. Maybe mother has some familial loathing issues? Very Judeo-Christian of her!
"I am not saying everyone has to be Christian; this is not a homogenous nation," Kern said. "What you have to be is someone who believes in a Judeo-Christian ethic, in other words, in knowing there's a right and wrong.
So all of those civilizations that did not have contact with christian thought had no idea of right and wrong? Is this a stupidity and short sightedness she was born with or did she will herself to be this stupid?
Judaism and Christianity are two separate religions, and neither of them know a damn thing about ethics.
There's actually a well-developed and ancient school of Jewish ethics, some of which, despite its antiquity, is quite secular. The main thing that causes that distinction in Judaism is that Judaism is primarily a religion about how to live, and Christianity is a religion about how to die. The former is (with reason) obviously more concerned about ethics than the latter, since all that matters really in Christianity is following the elaborate rules until you obtain your Get Out of Hell Free Card.
The ironic thing is, the two most similar Abrahamic religions are Christianity and Islam, although if you ever said something like "Islamo-Christian values" to someone like Sally Kern, they'd stroke out from apoplexy. Some easily-amused Okie Pharynguloid ought to try it sometime. (Got a camera phone and a YouTube account?)
Sally Kern, when will you learn
To keep your big mouth shut?
You have the choice to use your voice
To love your neighbor--but--
It seems your fate is spewing hate;
When will you ever learn?
Please, voters, try to say goodbye
To Bigot Sally Kern.
The term "Judeo-Christian" has no applicability to Western democracy. Judeo-Christian ethics approved of slavery, had nothing whatever to say about democracy, and certainly did not introduce the idea of the dignity of the individual -- that's a Germanic concept. It did not accept the notion of the rule of law nor the idea that the law applies even to the leaders. Western democracy is derived from Germanic and Classical notions, not Judeo-Christian ones.
oops, I see that Wowbagger @ #10 already covered Hammurabi.
Deism
Theism
Interrobang:
Yeah, Judaism certainly doesn't involve any elaborate rule-following...
Ms. Kern, it's very important that you know that the Jews in your Judeo-Christian deny, yes, overtly deny Christs divinity and saving power. In fact, many Jews deny Christ existed, or see Him as a malevolent figure, given the results for the Jews of His teachings.
Where does that leave your Judeo-Christian?
We think your religion (Christianity) is a hoax! Feeling all inter-faith now?
Andrew @44--
She has addressed those rumours; they are a case of mistaken identity.
She is odious enough without lying to embellish.
"OK, here's a somewhat OT question I've been meaning to ask for a while now:
What is the difference between a Deist and a Theist?"
Might I suggest Webster's (or any other) online dictionary? Why would you take the time to ask someone here to take their time to write up the definitions when they are so readily available in so many places?
Actually, I disagree with you that Sally Kern is such a bad person. I think that this author is simply very ignorant of both Oklahoma and the American South in general. It looks like he comes from a liberal enclave in Minnesota (which is actually pretty conservative overall itself) but a look at recent polling finds that Oklahomans back John McCain over Barack Obama by a more than 2 to 1 margin. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's likely that most Oklahomans - or at least most Oklahomans in her district - share her views.
And if you don't like it? Well, either stop flapping your jaw or move to Canada or San Francisco!
//What you have to be is someone who believes in a Judeo-Christian ethic, in other words, in knowing there's a right and wrong.//
I can haz eat head now?
Yeah. Great. Since a lot of people may agree with her it makes her being a bigoted woman ok?
Yeah, Judaism certainly doesn't involve any elaborate rule-following...
I never noticed any. I wonder which is worse in God's eyes? Buying some Southron preacher a fancy house and college, or turning your religion into a machine for supporting an armed religious colony, which steals its land from the rightful owners?
I guess I'll have to ask Him when I get the chance. If I can get an answer back to you folks, I will.
Which of course makes her views correct, as the majority is never wrong on moral issues. Just look at the South prior to the Civil War!
The phrase "Judeo-Christian" is bothersome for historical reasons. Judaism and Christianity are in fact very different religions, obviously quite opposed to each other on some key theological issues, and by no means having identical ethical teachings. One difference between Judaism and Christianity that makes Judaism more attractive to me, an unbeliever, is that Christianity is emphatically focused on individual salvation, Judaism much more so on right conduct, regardless of whether it saves one's skin or not. Note that this is an ethical difference, arising out of theological considerations. Since belief in an afterlife, let alone a happy afterlife, is optional for a Jew, he or she may concentrate entirely on doing right in the here and now. Compare the allegedly sublime Sermon on the Mount, where nearly every precept has salvation as its motive: "Judge not, THAT ye be not judged," and so on.
So, she doesn't mind us not being Christian as long as we know we are wrong. Because although she thinks we are all equals, our views are not. Nice...
So, how does that work i wonder, if my lifestyle (not equal to hers) is linked to my biology, which is apparently equal to hers?
Sad cow. Picking on Christians these days is like shooting fish in a barrel with a sniper rifle.
@ #54: She is a bad person Steve. She is a monstrous bigot fueled by hate. The fact that she is surrounded by dingdongs who share her views doesn't make the views themselves any less hateful.
There's actually a well-developed and ancient school of Jewish ethics, some of which, despite its antiquity, is quite secular
Interrobang
Yes, Interrobang, we see this wonderful ethics at work in Israel and Gaza every day!
Oh Jesus, Interrobang, just let us be people! Don't make what we do even worse by claiming we have some sort of "ethic". It just makes things worse.
The term "Judeo-Christian" entered the fundie vernacular because it was pointed out so many times that most of what fundamentalist Christians preach was not, in fact Christian but rather Jewish. Creation? Jewish. Unclean women? Jewish. Rules on who you can have sex with? Jewish. So in order to cover themselves, the fundies started to call it Judeo-Christian.
When someone says "Judeo-Christian" what they mean is "my brand of fundamentalist intolerant stupid Christian." You will not find open-minded Christians using that term.
Dahan #53: although I agree with you that the web most often contains answers to questions of interest to a community, I only use it as a starting/reference point. When getting involved in a discussion group (or trying to uderstand the topics being discussed), it's almost always necessary to find out how that community defines terms.
As an example, the definitions used in alt.atheism existed several years before dictionaries and encyclopedias began to acknowledge them. I found the community alternately agreeing and disparaging common/dictionary usage, and so I had a difficult time "fitting in".
In other words, I don't think it was unreasonable to ask this group for the aforementioned definitions. Certainly, Wiki is an excellent source these days, though...
Posted by: Steve | August 7, 2008 10:40 AM
Actually, I disagree with you that Sally Kern is such a bad person. I think that this author is simply very ignorant of both Oklahoma and the American South in general.
It is a well decumented fact that when a majority of a population believes something, it becomes the TRUTH. One best not question the collective wisdom.
Sorry Steve, that insane person claims that people like me are more dangerous then the September 11 terrorists. It makes her stupid, deluded and bad. It matters not that a slim majority of the people in her area agrees with her, she is wrong.
Oh, nice crack about San Francisco. So nice of you to point out your homophobia. But I have to point out this fact to you, Stevie-boy; the majority of people in San Francisco are heterosexual, just like any other enclave of humanity.
Seems you are just flapping your jaw.
Yeah. Great. Since a lot of people may agree with her it makes her being a bigoted woman ok?
Steve seems to be one of 'em.
This cow used to teach children. Scary.
She longs for the Bad Old Days when darkies knew their place, intellectuals moved to NYC at 15, and the world didn't constantly point out her stupidity.
Years ago, a rural moron could leave school and work for a living wage in a local factory. Or they could hire out as daylabour. The 'Merican dollar was worth mucho dinero. Working-class Americans could travel to Europe and live like the upper classes. Fat cowsows could snap their fingers at professional waitstaff and get deferential service. The educated soon learned that the rest of the world worked cheaper, faster, besser, and with less attitude.
Hiring Mexes came easy after the local yokels botched the job...for the third time...after strewing the workplace with cigarette butts. The cleanup cost was near double the original job. Mexes show up, on time, and work for the entire shift. Hell, they appreciate the ice water!
I was gonna suggest we add [Islamo] every time "Judeo-Christian" is used, but it get's a bit unwieldy.
So how about just "[Islamo]-Christian"? Or, pace John C. Randolph, "Judeo-[Islamic]". Hmmm - I like it.
Oh, God, someone just dropped the "luvviterleevit" bomb. How appalling. It's like "agree to disagree" plus a middle finger.
How about a trichotomy instead - love it, leave it, or confront it?
He's one of something, that's for sure.
She probably thinks "gay rights" are special rights! I've come to the conclusion that they are special IF YOU DON'T HAVE THEM! *growl*
Judeo-Christian values is just a code word for homobigotry.
Terrance, I assume you are young and haven't yet had the kind of heartaches some of us have had. What I do know, & I've been in a similar situation, is that you will get over it; eventually. What do you do with your life? Carry On! Alot of people would think of offing themselves and I knew someone who did. All I can say is don't. Think of what will come after and the wisdom you will gain from this. Remeber what doesn't kill you will make you stronger (wiser). It's going to hurt like hell for awhile. Just accept that. Pretty soon you'll stop being hurt and you'll get angry. Direct that into making your life better. Keep going to work or school or what ever you do. If she's such a liar and a cheat why would you want her anyway? Sex is better with someone you trust. There are trustworthy people out there. Eventually you will find her. Best of luck!
Oh, Steve, you are so stupid.
Have you ever actually been to Minnesota? The whole state? It's not very conservative, particularly compared to the American South. Yes, we currently have a Republican governor - what of it? When one looks at broader trends, Minnesota is far more liberal both socially and economically.
And the Twin Cities, where over half the population resides (that makes us a majority, asshat) is even more liberal than outstate Minnesota. Come up here for Pride some summer (2nd largest free Pride festival in the country) and tell me this is a conservative state. Then again, the sight of so many GLBT people being completely normal would probably make your head explode.
OK can do better than Sally Kern? Hell, the Mustang Ranch can do better than Sally Kern. She's just another bigoted hooker walking the streets of religion, selling herself to service others like herself.
doov
Please do. I want to see that argument. I thought jellyfish were purely passive and just had simple sensor->muscle reflexes.
Dogs certainly know when they've done something the rest of their pack (i.e. their humans) considers to be against the rules, and even look guilty and ashamed.
Is being able to fake guilt evidence that they can feel guilt (in order to fake it)?
I always thought "Judeo-Christian" was a case of protesting too much. The really whacked out fundies know deep down (or heck, right on the surface) that they want to impose their very narrow religious views through the government, and that Jews, as an organized and vocal minority with a lot of sympathy from mainstream Christians, are the most likely folk to block them. They may also realize that should the fundie dream government ever come to fruition, the climate for Jews would most likely resemble that of Medieval Europe. So to cover their asses and appear acceptable to the wider world, they make a huge show of embracing the Jewish faith and pretending they all share the same values.
Another purpose--equally disingenuous--for the Judeo/Christian confabulation is the attractiveness of the old testament books of the bible for modern literalists. The new testament is thin on sharp and direct condemnations which can be used to attack people or policies, fuel fear, and pump donations and political power. The new testament is troublesome; it contains lots of confusing parables and openly challenging general admonitions such as "love thy neighbor" or give all your Escalades to the poor or turn the other cheek, that sort of commie propaganda that makes strong, right-thinking Christians into weak-kneed liberals with one-way tickets to San Francisco in their pockets.
The old testament--which is really the Jewish book, the Pentateuch (Tanakh) predating Christ--is full of lovely unequivocal eye-gouging, good old declarations of "right and wrong." The inconvenient ones dealing with multiple wives, slaves, shellfish, and all that can be ignored or negotiated away; the ones that confirm our existing biases and get our hearts racing can be graven into images and used to poke politicians in the butt.
American fundies' use of the five books is insultingly naive and corrupt when compared to the Jewish tradition. Even most conservative jews who observe all the laws rely on careful Talmudic interpretation and commentary. They don't just yank them out and put them on a bumpersticker.
The patent inconsistency of this approach by American and other fundies--ahistorical, sleazy, and corrupt--actually becomes an advantage for the strutting, sweating fundamentalist preacher, shouting at his choir. Point it out and you're an academic, pointy-lenin-bearded elitist intellectual. We'll come for you first, it says right here in Deuteronomy.
That's what Lay Down Sally means when she says Judeo-Christian: We'll take a lot of interpretive risks if we can only have Levitics 18:22. Please? We need it. Without that verse we might have to govern!
ice
Being from Oklahoma I can honestly say that Kern is anathema here too. She most probably won't survive this next round of elections. There is a big drive to vote her out. I'm not in her district so I have no say, but I'm pretty sure that Marlett will take that district. She isn't representative of the people I associate with. Even the Xians I know & love. She is an embarrassment. A few weeks back she was detained at the capitol building for trying to enter with a gun in her purse. And it wasn't the first time either. To say she is dangerous is an understatment and the electorate knows it. I'll be pretty shocked if they don't take care of this idiot and remove her from office.
#75: I don't think she's looking to service others like herself - she wants to be a dom, and everyone she doesn't like should be her bottom. Good luck with that, Sally.
I think either of my cats would make a better legislator than Sally Kern. I know that they don't do much, other than usual cat things, but I'm pretty sure they have better characters and more intelligence, though I may be biased.
As a godless liberal living in Oklahoma I can say that Barklikeadog got it right. Unfortunately, Steve is a little bit right as well. Oklahoma does suffer from the "What's the matter with Kansas?" syndrome. We have a lot of single issue voters here. They will vote republican even if it is not in their own economic interests to do so simply because they think that democrats will (pick any one or more of the following): a) take their guns away; b) take god out of the pledge of allegiance; c) make their daughters get abortions; d) make their sons get "gay married"; or e) some other irrational nonsense advocated by the likes of Rush Limbaugh.
A theist is anyone at all who believes in the existence of God, god, or gods. The term "theist" incorporates many (but not all) agnostics, Christians, Jews, Hindus, many (but not all) pagans, etc.
A Deist has the specific belief that god (or God) exists and created the universe (and a Deist is therefore another example of a theist), but does not intervene in its current workings.
this thread is hilarious... bigots scoffing at bigots. another epic pot versus kettle battle.
Hmm, that sounds familiar. Ah yes, the old "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" argument, disturbing.
JP -
Right, we're not "neutral" enough. So live and let not let live? It's all just "points of view"? Just look the other way and hope for the best?
I thought Sally's kids weren't allowed on the Internet without permission - I guess someone set the password to the family dog's name again.
Someone better get home and reset the password before things really get out of hand. Oh, and you might want to clean the crayon off the monitor.
Random stuff:
jp #84: there's very little bigotry in this thread, which happens to be discussing a political leader who willingly displays hers with pride. I'm not sure what you think you're seeing, but as far as I can tell, it isn't close to being accurate or real.
Graculus #77: I'm not sure where you're coming from (with regards to the "dog guilt" notion), so I'll take you seriously:
No, faking guilt at best shows the ability to empathize; and empathy is found even in pathological criminals. The ability to understand what the other is feeling (or wants you to feel) doesn't necessarily mean you feel it youself.
I personally suspect dogs can "feel guilty". But it's also possible we're incorrectly anthropomorphizing some other emotion or instinct; fear (at having upset a superior), manipulation via empathy (for purposes of survival), etc.
In any case, I think this whole idea was raised as a response to Mr. Comfort's assertion that dogs can't feel guilt (with regards to legal Guilt or Innocence). It was a ridiculous things to say, and even if this community's examples aren't dead-on, it's certain there's enough evidence to indicate Mr. Comfort had no idea of what he was talking about.
I'm not scoffing. Who's scoffing? Name me one scoff! I was clearly mocking, with a side of derision.
PS--you, sir, are black.
ice
(that, I believe, was a twit.)
#88: "But it's also possible we're incorrectly anthropomorphizing some other emotion or instinct; fear (at having upset a superior), manipulation via empathy (for purposes of survival), etc."
This is a very good point. What if dogs only look guilty as the result of the following scenario:
SCENE: Some cave in like, France, or something
Enter Two Hunters
Hunter 1: By the Mighty She-Bear! Those asshole wolf cubs we caught the other day tore up the tree trunk we like to sit on and spilled all the fermented berry juice! Let's kill 'em.
Hunter 2: Well, one of them looks contrite. Let's kill the one that doesn't.
jp's bigot comment refers to the cracker kerfuffle... let it go, jp, move on... there's nothing for you here until the next anti-popery post.
Regarding Steve:
I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's likely that most Oklahomans - or at least most Oklahomans in her district - share her views.
D00d, you just proved Rarus' point:
They crave validation for their incomprehensible world view because they can't support it with anything else but other people's beliefs. If enough people believe it, then it must be right.
And please, Stevie Ray Pwn (apologies to the late, great Mr Vaughan), "San Francisco Values" is not a pejorative term. Kos took you troglodytes to the cleaners with this post:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/11/28/15421/031
Oh, you mean like this guy?
Good old fashioned GOP family values there. So glad they're out there keeping us safe from the depraved atheists.
Christian values:
We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand.
-- James Watt, United States Secretary of the Interior 1981 - 1983
AHHH james watt. One of my favorite wingnuts of times past.
Before today, I hadn't know it was possible to snort coffee out of your nose and survive...
Damn but those Beach Boys are just too radically rock-n-roll to play in front of a truly american audience.
From the article:
"Kern, who is running for a third term, walked to the lectern on crutches and said she's dealing with bulging disks and an irritated sciatic nerve."
Perhaps she is being punished for a lack of charity by her imaginary Judeo-Christian friend?
On a personal note, I like things that are bulging but not bulging disks! But that's my gay agenda.
From # 7
"what a condescending, patronising, silly fucking witch.
its funny how her words simultaneously eliminate her from getting votes because 1)what she says is indefensible and
2)shows she is quite, quite stupid."
I don't agree! There are plenty of stupid voters who'll vote for stupid ideas and/or people! Just look at our current commander-in-chief or Minnesota's congresswomen Michelle Backman! It takes a lot of stupidity to elect stupidity, but it's out there.
BobC:
I see your Watt, and I'll raise you a Weinberger:
"I have read the Book of Revelation, and, yes, I believe the world is going to end--by an act of God, I hope--but every day I think time is running out."
Amazing we survived the Reagan years at all!
Somewhat OT, but related. This is a cross-post showing the absurdity of Kern & co. (IOW, would you trust an IDiot to be on a jury sitting on sequencing evidence?):
I hereby claim rights to "Christians Gone Wild©"
Joel Osteen's wife is something that starts with a C and I not talking Christian.
I think some vengeful Christians may have heard that last bit. But then again they probably would anyway.
"Posted by: Andrew | August 7, 2008 10:17 AM
There have been **cough cough** rumors about the lifestyle preferences of her son. Maybe mother has some familial loathing issues? Very Judeo-Christian of her!"
Maybe she should have sent this son to Washington where he could have been an intern in Senator Craig's office. Senator Craig could have shown the young lad his Judeo-Christian values!
I find it funny that these people all go around claiming to be brave culture warriors, that they are fierce in protecting what they hold sacred (even if it is, most of the time, that what they hold sacred is the need to keep hating people who are different) but gays, gay allies, and atheists are the ones who are militant? I know, they are known for their skills of not knowing their asses from holes in the ground (right, Steve?) and they do tend to project their emotional and intellectual shortcomings on the rest of us but that's just too rich.
@#86 two wrongs = ???
@# 88- nope no bigotry here...
"Picking on Christians these days is like shooting fish in a barrel with a sniper rifle"
"to the extent that it is Christian, it is fairly fucking reprehensible."
i'm too lazy to paste them all, but this thread is rabidly anti-religion/christian and i find it funny that you'd even try to dispute that.
Big difference between being against what someone believes and what someone is.
"Joel Osteen's wife is something that starts with a C and I not talking Christian."
chimp, you've got to be kidding? have you flown anywhere lately? i can't believe you'd side with this scumbag flight attendant trying to milk a monster settlement out of this!
@#106 - so how exactly does this dispute my point???
jp: "this thread is rabidly anti-religion/christian"
Speaking only for myself, I'm anti-christian because I don't like stupid assholes.
I think we should send emails to westboro to make sure they loudly support Sally in her fight against the homosexual agenda
Last week in Knoxville, TN, a registered republican man, without a job, and who was afraid his FOOD STAMPS, i.e. government assistance, were going to be reduced or cut off because of LIBERALS gaining control of the country, shot 7 people, 2 who died later.
His mind was full of, and his house littered with, books from the 24/7 hate radio line up of scream jockeys.
REad more at: http://tinyurl.com/69qlnh
Did he know right from wrong? Probably, but he did it anyway.
Right and wrong are subjective, and I'd go so far as to call them useful fictions. So I don't see two "wrongs" here, and I don't buy the "turning the other cheek" thing, and there's no reason why anyone should just assume that an atheist would.
We have our own reasons for taking the status of homosexuals and nonchristians in society seriously, and every day each person has to make decisions about whose toes we might have to step on and how hard. It's a conflict over what kind of world we want to live in, and I, for one, side unequivocally with the folks who aren't invoking mean-spirited homophobic Russell's Teapots in a serious discussion about the flesh-and-blood world the rest of us unfortunately have to share with religious nut cases like Sally Kern.
We're not going to play dead and hope for the best. Free speech means that people get to bitch about you when you say fuckwitted things in public, and that maybe people won't want to vote for you after that. I bet you lose sleep over why black people get to use the N word and you don't, you poor thing.
@#106 - so how exactly does this dispute my point???
"bigot", I don't think it means what you think it means.
Bigotry
Is this group anti-Christian? I supposed part of it is. To be fair, however, the majority of self-identified Christian people who post here aren't displaying logic or reasonable opinions. They're here to flame and inflame the community. If you're in an all-girls club, and a boy walks in talking about the superiority of the male gender, who's the bigot?
Seems to me the bigotry displayed in this forum is primarily pro-Christian. To be sure, there's a lot of anti-Christian sentiment, but most of it is reaction to religious bigotry. And if there's any group here less accepting of outside opinion, it's not the forum regulars.
I mean, look at your initial comment upon entry to the thread. Is it any wonder people reacted negatively?
BobC, I agree. It's not us who are making the stereotype of a Christian be someone who gets snippy about everything they perceive as being wrong and immoral (and act like being a Christian and an American is a competitive sport) while going out and actually doing most of the stuff that they are screaming about the rest of us doing. And jp, don't try to tell us that they aren't true Christians. We don't care. Tell them to stop embarrassing the moderates yourself. That's your little club, not ours so police it yourself.
Of topic, kind of, but still kind or irreverent: has everyone seen today's xkcd?
http://xkcd.com/459/#
I made no such defense of the flight attendant. 10% of the Osteens worth is fucking ridiculous. However if any part of what the reports of Mrs. Osteen did is the truth, I stand by my comment. That's is pure unadulterated "spoiled bitch I'm better than these peons" behavior. And what makes this different than any other "I'm rich so fuck you" behavior is the supposed moral standing of the offender.
Do I think it's worth 10% of their net worth? Hell no.
"To be sure, there's a lot of anti-Christian sentiment, but most of it is reaction to religious bigotry."
Another chunk of it is in reaction to actual opinions spouted by actual Christians. It is not bigotry to mock someone if they say something or believe something I think is illogical or poorly thought out. That is precisely the gift of free speech.
The new US belief system -Litigion.
I suspect guilt in humans evolved because of similar scenarios.
Graculus #77: I'm not sure where you're coming from (with regards to the "dog guilt" notion), so I'll take you seriously: - That's a mistake ;-)
Dogs, being social animals, are prime candidates for "guiltly" feelings for transgressing the social order, and I've seen empathy in our dogs. But dogs are also liars. A prime example is how they are suddenly starving to death when you are cooking a steak. It's how non-dominant wild dogs behave, too. "Alpha feed me? Alpha love me? Alpha not drive me out of pack?"
it's certain there's enough evidence to indicate Mr. Comfort had no idea of what he was talking about.
I think that's pretty much a given if his mouth is open.
@#89- ice, it's obvious you truly crack yourself up...
@#117- "Another chunk of it is in reaction to actual opinions spouted by actual Christians. It is not BIGOTRY to mock someone if they say something or believe something I think is illogical or poorly thought out. That is precisely the gift of free speech."
no, dear, that's exactly it is, at least in regard to religious belief.
@#117- "Another chunk of it is in reaction to actual opinions spouted by actual Christians. It is not BIGOTRY to mock someone if they say something or believe something I think is illogical or poorly thought out. That is precisely the gift of free speech."
no, dear, that's exactly it is, at least in regard to religious belief.
Son, you keep using that word. I KNOW it doesn't mean what you think it means.
Ah, jp, you think mocking=intolerance. Well, I didn't need further proof that you were an idiot, but thanks anyway.
jp #122
A woman displays blatant bigotry and uses her religion to justify this bigotry. How is it bigotry on our part to mock both her bigotry and her religious excuses for her homophobia?
Or is jp playing the "Christians are a persecuted majority in this country" game?
Judo-Christian? Like Chuck Norris? Or is he a Karate-Christian?
@chimp- "I made no such defense of the flight attendant. 10% of the Osteens worth is fucking ridiculous. However if any part of what the reports of Mrs. Osteen did is the truth, I stand by my comment. That's is pure unadulterated "spoiled bitch I'm better than these peons" behavior. And what makes this different than any other "I'm rich so fuck you" behavior is the supposed moral standing of the offender.
Do I think it's worth 10% of their net worth? Hell no."
i'm with you on the spoiled bitch routine, but have you paid for a first class ticket lately? for what they charge, those flight attendants should wipe your ass if you ask. and you even acknowledge this is the account given by the greedy ass plaintiff... this just reeks of a bogus shakedown.
@#124- "Ah, jp, you think mocking=intolerance. Well, I didn't need further proof that you were an idiot, but thanks anyway."
nat, like the song says... "girl don't go away mad, girl just go away..." no need to get all indignant on being called out.
@#124- gee dad, why don't you tell me your definition???
here's mine - "obtuse or narrow-minded intolerance, especially of other races or religions. -- bigot, n."
now, please point out where i may have used it out of context?
I would have thought Motley Crue was too intellectual for you. Will miracles never cease? Next thing you know, you'll be outsmarting Senator McCain on YouTube...well, after you clean the crayon off of your mom's monitor and go down to the basement to practice your alphabet.
Please stop feeding the trolls.
Oh wow, that's terrible. No wonder believers think that atheism equates to nihilism, the idiots in power keep creating the link between their beliefs and morality. Bloody idiots!
Oooh, condescension as well.
As I already said, you are equating mocking with intolerance. That's the crux of the problem with your inaccurate definition of "bigot".
In regards to flight attendants, they don't set ticket prices. If you want someone to wipe your ass, I suggest you look to airline management.
The only REAL reason for flight attendants is safety. Everything else is a perk while they aren't busy.
"@#106 - so how exactly does this dispute my point???"
If your point is that we shouldn't criticize stupid or harmful or factually incorrect* beliefs and/or statements, then it doesn't. But if that is your point then we have nothing to say to each other, and I'm quite happy to be your definition of a bigot.
* If you feel like defending her statement that knowing right from wrong is an exclusively Christian (or even *snort* Judeo-Christian) quality, then feel free to step up.
The only REAL reason for flight attendants is safety. Everything else is a perk while they aren't busy.
Exactly!
But, we're all spoiled consumers so safety doesn't matter as long as we get our asses wiped.
But who here doesn't think the lawsuit for 10% isn't poetic? And hilarious at the same time. I mean, if you have parishioners tithing 10% you only need 10 of them to end up with a 100% income (of some sort). And as someone mentioned here a few days ago, having a COGS (cost of goods sold) of zero certainly makes for a tidy profit. Having 24,000 real and virtual parishioners can get you a ton of vacations at your home in Vail. The plaintiff's claim of hemorrhoids, though; I'm not sure I'd put that in court documents. Claiming the defendant damaged your faith is poetic too. The defendant may have unleashed some payback karma for affecting someone's faith. OM___? I mean, what is she going to use for the third letter now??? ;) And what do the villagers yell at the co-reverend now? Will they point and yell, "You affected her faith. You evil faith affecter you! Kill the faith affecter."?
Yeah it's expensive but no right to physically assault anyone. It appears that the hands on approach my Mrs. Prosperity Gospel was witnessed by others. Now that doesn't mean that Mrs. Brown isn't trying the shakedown too. But Mrs. Brown shaking down after the fact is no excuse for Osteen's actions. Isn't she supposed to be better than that?
Plus I'm sure this will open all kinds of blah blah but what the fuck are preachers doing with that much money?
yeah, it is embarrassing to live in Oklahoma, with nuts like that as public officials! I am hoping we can replace James Inhofe, at least, with Andrew Rice, this November.
#27...
"dogs seem to feel guilt...
???
atheism makes you stoopid"
First of all learn to spell. Second, and most importantly, dogs do feel guilt. I have been raised around dogs my entire life and I am a partner in the family business. Not only do dogs feel guilt, they also have their own individual personalities. Maybe you should do a little more research or spend some time with a reputable vet and you'll see what the real facts are.
@#125- "A woman displays blatant bigotry and uses her religion to justify this bigotry. How is it bigotry on our part to mock both her bigotry and her religious excuses for her homophobia?
Or is jp playing the "Christians are a persecuted majority in this country" game?"
you're kidding right? religious excuses? you not only attack her personally, but her religion as a whole. regardless of how you want to wrap it, that is bigotry in its own right.
@#130- "I would have thought Motley Crue was too intellectual for you. Will miracles never cease? Next thing you know, you'll be outsmarting Senator McCain on YouTube...well, after you clean the crayon off of your mom's monitor and go down to the basement to practice your alphabet."
HAP? let me guess, as in hap-loid? come on now, you know that was good...
and the crue? too intellectual? LOL. good one chief. and i bet you're even funnier off meds right? you better run along and let the big kids talk because if that's the best you've got, it's gonna be a rough ride...
jp, you need to consult a dictionary. "Bigotry": Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion.
No one here is being irrational in their suspicion of Sally Kern; no one here is being irrational in their hatred of Sally Kern.
We are entirely rational in our distaste for religious bigotry. Claiming that any attack on the illogical nature of religion is bigotry is simply... illogical. Or asinine. Take your pick, child.
@#135 - "If your point is that we shouldn't criticize stupid or harmful or factually incorrect* beliefs and/or statements, then it doesn't. But if that is your point then we have nothing to say to each other, and I'm quite happy to be your definition of a bigot.
* If you feel like defending her statement that knowing right from wrong is an exclusively Christian (or even *snort* Judeo-Christian) quality, then feel free to step up.
first, my point is i find it funny when bigots cry bigotry and yes, characterizing her religious beliefs as "stupid" makes you a bigot.
next, i read her statement and must have missed the part where she says "right from wrong is an exclusively christian quality." i'm not pretending to be a theology major, but don't different religions generally have different ideas about what constitutes "right and wrong"? it seems she's merely promoting the "judeo-christian" concept, just as you've sought to promote your own. so hers don't match yours and you're upset about it... aww, how sad.
every time i hear "Judeo-Christian" i hear Sideshow Bob's voice when Bart and Lisa ran into the Springfield Dam: "Stop, children! There's hydroelectricity in there!"
but that's an aside. my real comment is about the adjective Judeo-Christian (and the related Judeo-Christian-Islamic): am i the only freakin' one who uses the word "levantine" any more?!
I don't waste rational argument on those unable (or unwilling) to understand it. You aren't worthy of anything other than invective, so that's what you get. Besides, in terms of snappy comebacks, you're not as good as Joe Blow. I don't think I'm worried about your ability to damage my ego.
my representative is Al McAffrey, who is - gasp! - openly gay.
I must admit that substantially changes my picture of Oklahoma. I had assumed that it was a far less tolerant place than that.
-jcr
Do I think it's worth 10% of their net worth? Hell no.
Hmm.. From what I've read, there was an assault and battery, so if I were on that jury, I'd be thinking in terms of what level of punitive damages would be likely to prevent a repeat performance. Did the bitch repent, or is she trying to bluff her way through denying the attack?
A lot of jury awards are way out of hand, but 10% of the perp's net worth might be entirely reasonable in this circumstance.
-jcr
"It is not BIGOTRY to mock someone if they say something or believe something I think is illogical or poorly thought out."
I would define bigotry as the assumption that a person's membership in a group determines their behavior, attitudes, or worth. It's not bigotry to deride any individual for bad behavior; it's bigotry to attribute that behavior to their membership in the group.
-jcr
characterizing her religious beliefs as "stupid" makes you a bigot. - some moron or other
Crap. Telling the truth can't be bigotry.
You can be bigoted toward a person. You can't be bigoted toward a belief. Why? Because you choose your beliefs. You don't choose (for example) race, gender or sexual orientation.
See the difference?
Oh, and her religious beliefs are stupid - as are all beliefs that depend on irrational or delusional thought processes.
We need a classification for pests worth fewer XP than trolls. If 845 XP is too little reward for the effort, what do we do with some of these new varieties?
Thread Goblin, perhaps? E-Slime? Concern Imp...
The MadPanda, FCD
MadPanda: could use the term "discussion orc" ... abbreviated as d'orc, of course
@#143- "jp, you need to consult a dictionary. "Bigotry": Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion.
No one here is being irrational in their suspicion of Sally Kern; no one here is being irrational in their hatred of Sally Kern.
We are entirely rational in our distaste for religious bigotry. Claiming that any attack on the illogical nature of religion is bigotry is simply... illogical. Or asinine. Take your pick, child."
consult a dictionary? you mean like the one i just cut and pasted from a couple of posts ago? sure. whatever works for you oldtimer. it's one thing to attack religion as illogical, i'll admit, most religions do require a willing suspension of logic, but to attack the followers of a religion because of their beliefs... that would be the correct definition of religious bigotry.
and with that, i'm off to the golf course to get in on some twilight... later haters.
That works!
'Discussion Orc' it is...or, as you say, D'Orc.
Now the question is whether or not we classify the Raving Kern as some variant of Ogre or Bugbear. Let me go find my Fiend Folio.
The MadPanda, FCD
So jp, as long as you wrap someones' bigotry in the flag of religion you can say whatever you cant and it's ok. But if you are critical of that religion and its practitioners being bigoted, you are a bigot?
Mmmm don't think so.
cant = want
KoT
jp #154:
Except yours. Right, asshole?
am i the only freakin' one who uses the word "levantine" any more?!
No, it's my term of choice. I think that has to say something about both of us, but I'm not sure what.
Anti-semitism is alive and well with these people just as it was years ago when I was growing up; along with Jim Crow and separate but equal. The only difference is that it's no longer politically correct to say so out loud.
I'm sure that she would be just as opposed to to Jew marrying a Christian if it was 1958 instead of 2008; never mind if they wanted to adopt a child.
I take that back, she is probably still anti intermarriage.
JP, I recognize that you're young, and not very bright, but presumably you can read. Sally Kern:"I am not saying everyone has to be Christian; this is not a homogenous nation," Kern said. "What you have to be is someone who believes in a Judeo-Christian ethic, in other words, in knowing there's a right and wrong. In other words, she believes that to be an American, everyone must accept HER standard of right and wrong.
Which makes her a bigot. And it makes you wrong. Sorry, my dear.
The other problem with the term "Judeo-Christian" is its blatant political bias. There are three Abrahamic faiths, all drawing their inspiration from the same bundle of texts, all venerating the same prophets, all worshiping the same god and all claiming the same "Holy" Land. However, politically the Christian West has thrown its lot in with Israel (our little "Ulster in the Middle East" and such a handy way of keeping the Arab powers off balance). So, hey presto, Judeo Christians gang up against Muslims who are the ones cast out of the triumvirate for the convenience of the others. But the only realistic term for th three peoples of the book is Abrahamic (or peoples of the book) and every use of Judeo-Christian marks the user out as a hypocritical islamophobe or oil man or zionist or some other such poster boy or girl for the total immorality of christian "values".
I found an interesting article about "JP" and other such trolls. Very informative:
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/local_idiot_to_post_comment_on
What is wrong with calling evil bigots like bin Laden, Falwell, Stalin, Pol Pot, Dobson, Hagee, and Sally Kearn....evil bigots?
Some people are good, productive members of the human race and some are not. It has always been that way.
Even the bible is filled with examples of both and much of it is concerned with pointing out and condemming the bad examples.
Deepsix @163 I found an interesting article about "JP" and other such trolls. Very informative:
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/local_idiot_to_post_comment_on
Irrelevant. The person described is articulately stupid - far too smart to be our jp. Or you can check out mroberts at the "Dispatches" blog. Amazingly dumb.
What amuses me so much about the Christian trolls is not their inability to reason or their congenital ignorance of science; it's their utter lack of familiarity with their own Holy Writ. I've never seen a creationist/theist troll such as jp who was capable of doing more with the Bible than using it as a door-stop.
"yes, characterizing her religious beliefs as "stupid" makes you a bigot. "
So I'm a jp bigot then. Because her religious beliefs are stupid. And what's more, what she said in this article was stupid. Oh, whatever shall I do? What support group shall I join?