[[Oops. Forgot this on the first post. MAJeff here.]]
It appears we've got more than a few Ottawans here (Ottawegians? Ottawites?) It also seems they'd like to meet each other. I've also seen a few Massholes (what do we call ourselves?) saying they'd like to get together again. I'm not surprised. We are, after all, a social species.
It's kind of funny to see Nisbet complaining about the loners over here when we are actually engaging in very social activity by sitting here chatting. Some of us may be sitting alone in physical space, but the intensive communicative action in which we engage is pretty much the opposite of "lonerness." (You'd think someone who's supposedly an expert in communication would recognize that it's a form of social activity, but....) We've gotten to know things about each other; many of us have connected off-line; we sit and chat about each other's lives in these very threads, often ignoring or forgetting what the original post was about.
It's the social I want to talk about this morning. In 1912, the French sociologist Emile Durkheim published his classic work, The Elementary Forms of the Religious Life. I think that one of the most powerful conclusions to be taken from the book is that religion is simply the group worshipping itself. His analysis divided social space into two basic categories--the sacred and the profane. Now, being in profane space doesn't mean being in space where everyone gets to "take the name of the Lord in vain" or say, "fuck-fuckity-fuck-fuck-fuck," but I won't complain about doing either of those. The profane is simply the space of everyday life, of eating, drinking, working, fucking, playing, whatever.
Sacred space is set off from everyday practice as a special place where the group comes together to engage in ritual practice. These practices serve to reinforce the group itself. Members are reminded of the values and identity they share, and of the importance of the relationships between them. The ritual activity occurring in these sacred spaces is an enactment of the community, and in doing so, they are worshipping themselves. Why do gods always reflect the various values of different groups? Because those groups are their gods.
I know a number of atheists who attend Unitarian and Quaker services, as I'm sure many of you do as well. In TGD, Dawkins discussed atheists he knows attending Anglican services. These folks are all reinforcing relationships between themselves and the other members of the group. On a weekly basis, at a minimum for many of these folks, they get together with people they know and care about and re-establish their relationships with each other in order to reinforce their values and sense of collective self. Again, they enact community. I think we make a mistake when we fail to engage in some of these wider analyses, when we fail to see the other things going on because we focus only on the dumb ideas.
Religion is more than stupid beliefs.
As social beings, we all--at some level--desire to know and be known by the others in our communities. Religious organizations allow for that. While we can focus on the really dumb things it does, focusing on what religion--not religious belief, but religious practice--provides for people is absolutely necessary. If we are going to attack religion--or, at a minimum, its privileged position in society--we need an analysis that recognizes these social aspects. And, we need to understand how people might find them in other spaces. How do we create other "sacred" sites?
Well, the Pharyngufest is one of them, however small. I think I sort of got the first one going here in Boston this past winter. On a few of the threads recently, Boston-area folks have been sort of asking for another one. I'm going to refer folks around here to the Boston-area Skeptics-in-the-Pub, run and organized by Rebecca of Skepchick. There seems to be a pretty big overlap of readership, so the piggy-backing scheme seems to make sense. (I see on the Skepchick calendar that there's one scheduled for the 25th of this month.)
The ability to overcome religion means providing alternatives to it, and that means providing spaces for humans to enact community. So, let's chat about the social, about how we create spaces of community, and how we'll meet for food and drink.
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Marriage is more than shacking up, our Flag is more than a rag, going to church/temple is more than spouting dogma, and (dare I say it?) communion is more than a cracker.
When it comes to being profane, I prefer making "shee-iitt" into a four syllable word.
Yup, marriage is a system of privilege and inequality.
I wish we Aussies would organize a Pharyngufest like you guys do !
I like the thought of offering an alternative to religion,MAJeff,in offering opportunities to interact and communicate and socialize.I think that is an aspect of our debates on religion that is often forgotten,that if you take their warm and fuzzy world away,there will have to be a better alternative.
I wish we Aussies would organize a Pharyngufest like you guys do !
Here;s the thread. Get to work...
Sorry - can't make Boston; it's a bit far from where I am (Australia).
On the social aspects of religion; I've often thought that one of the reasons I didn't ever get enthusiastic about church was because I, for one, don't enjoy that kind of socialising - weirdly enough, Nisbet's description of 'grumpy, uncharismatic, male loner' describes me quite accurately; i was more annoyed that he felt my opinions aren't valid because of it. Plus I already have a ritual for a Sunday morning - I go to the gym. Much better - mentally as well as physically.
Anyway, during the brief period of my life when I went to church even semi-regularly I was a kid, and one who couldn't wait to get out of there and back home to do something fun. The idea of church as an adult just makes me want to run screaming down the road.
I do, however, enjoy the sense of community here - and that's unusual for me. The 'loner' thing works for me most of the time, but I do enjoy dialogue; this is where I come to get it.
Ottawoes or We're-Not-From-Toronto are also acceptable descriptions for Ottawati.
Which Ottawa? There are at least 4 in the USA and of course, Canada's Ottawa (where I am).
I like Ottawati.
MAJeff,
same as Danio, by linking to Nisbett from Pharyngula, you're increasing the ranking that he boasts about (see his post on July 3, I won't link to it, that'd be a 3rd link, next Framing Science is going to go up even more on that stupid Wikio ranking that he considers an adequate measure of how influential his blog is.
Wikio only looks at links, and how high on the ranking those links come from. So 2 links from Pharyngula in 2 days, imagine, what a blast for Nisbett.
And by the way it goes with links in the comments as well !
I've tried to post 3 comments on his blog, the first at 9:58 PM yesterday, they still haven't appeared. He delays things so much, it's really as if he really doesn't care about comments. Anyway, they don't count for his ranking, do they ?
The only reason Nisbett even appears on this ranking is that so many Pharyngula commenters inadvertently link in their comments to his pathetic posts as evidence of his idiocy. That's how he sees himself as a top influential blog.
Take out the links and put the dates of his posts, people can easily find them anyway, and like this, he won't have a reason to boast of being such an influential blog anymore.
I didn't link to Nisbet I linked to Danio.
Ottawoes or We're-Not-From-Toronto are also acceptable descriptions for Ottawati.
What's a 'Toronto'?
Anyway. Throwin' out Sept. 26 (a Friday, if my mad math skillz don't fail me) for the date for the Ottawa(/Montreal?) thing. That work generally?
It's the capital of Canuckistan.
oops sorry, didn't click on that link. At least you knew the trick.
But the comment still remans valid for all who inadvertently link to Nisbett in their comments from Pharyngula.
XKCD meetups are a great substitute for religious meetings!
http://wiki.xkcd.com/geohashing/Main_Page
I wish we Aussies would organize a Pharyngufest like you guys do !
Here;s the thread. Get to work...
Here's another Aussie who would love to talk to some fellow Pharyngulites. Lets make it happen!
I'm going to suggest Chinatown in Sydney, it's close to Central Station and should be easy for most Sydneysiders to get to (and I like the food :). Also how about the weekend 13th/14th of September, one month from now to give everyone enough time.
I've argued that churches are counterfeit communities, where people spend very little time together, just enough to let them imagine that everybody knows them and everybody knows everybody else, while all of them make a point of not learning much about each other, and keeping their own affairs to themselves. Fans of churching like it because they can delude themselves into feeling that they belong where they are, without having to do any of the work to be a real community member. Ersatz community lets them feel more important than they really are, and it takes so very little time and effort to keep the sense of it going.
@ #7 -
Everyone always gives Toronto a hard time... but really, at least people have heard of Ottawa and know it is in Ontario. I'm originally from a really small town in BC, and so when I say I'm from BC or going to BC to visit my family, people always say things like, "Oh, where in Vancouver are you from?" and "Have fun in Vancouver!" It just always confuses me that people view BC and Vancouver as interchangeable geographic labels...
Sodding Wick: Exactly! I've been to church, too: exercises in rote recitations, singing hymns out of a book, call and response -- that isn't community, it's a sheepfold. Some churches are much more participatory (charismatics and some Baptist churches really are audience-participation theater), but overall, church is fake community, the illusion of belonging in which the only sharing is the willing adoption of restrictions on thought and action.
Thanks for this post.
I agree that it is important to understand the positive role that religion plays in so many lives and your post explains it as well as any other I have seen. Now, if we could only separate out the good stuff from the bad, then we would really have something.
Hey Aj, Sept. 26th is perfect for me. Everyone else from Ottawa on board for that?
Oh, and I have to confess something. Although I now live in Ottawa, I technically am (pretty much) from Toronto. I'm actually from Barrie, about 40 minutes north of TO... but sadly I am more a Torontonian than an Ottawati.
So, MAJeff, your long, thoughtful disquisition on Durkheim's theories and your attempt to identify the positive aspects of religious community experience to reclaim them from dogma and hierarchy are, essentially, an argument that we should all meet up and get our drink on?
Works for me.
So, MAJeff, your long, thoughtful disquisition on Durkheim's theories and your attempt to identify the positive aspects of religious community experience to reclaim them from dogma and hierarchy are, essentially, an argument that we should all meet up and get our drink on?
Yeah.
Indeed. How is it not unconstitutional to give privileges to those who enter this construct and then deny others to do so, because of the sanctity of the construct?
MAJeff,
w.r.t your post, perfect ! You've just put into words what I always failed to express for myself so eloquently.
Thank you.
In France,we basically went from a situation where a large majority of people were regularly practicing Catholics to a situation where they are a minority, within the last 40 years. I think it's fair to say that we didn't spend much time about these enactments of communities for non religious. So people ended up focusing on hobbies, or the community of their work colleagues.
I think it was a mistake, our society is definitely missing something. Do you think these "sacred" spaces need to be and can they be, more than a hobby ?
Sept. 26 for an Ottawa gathering sounds great, it's after all those pesky end-of-summer weddings.
Do you think these "sacred" spaces need to be and can they be, more than a hobby ?
Civil society.
Queer communities provide a great example. During the mid-century, the only spaces available for any kind of meeting were bars. Now, if you go to most major cities, at least, you see not only community centers, but sports leagues, gardening clubs, musical groups....I'm not saying that we need atheist gardening clubs or whatever, but in a sense part of what we're talking about is expanding civil society. It's going to be a complex mess of all sorts of things, of people coming together for political, cultural, and social reasons.
I think that's at least part of it.
Neg @24,
but of course we have sacred spaces today. They are important to many people, and often thronged. The sacred space near where I live, for example, holds 17 well-attended services a year.
but of course we have sacred spaces today. They are important to many people, and often thronged. The sacred space near where I live, for example, holds 17 well-attended services a year
And watch the medal ceremonies for the next two weeks.
While I entirely agree with the post, I think it's important to add that the religious belief adds all kinds of aspects to the community that you couldn't get if you were all hanging out at a football game, or BBQ, or other social function.
With football you support a common team, the same as in your religion. At church everyone gets to feel like they support the same thing. That provides validity to your *own* belief.
With football you can bitch about how all the other teams sucks, just like with your religion. Again, validating to yourself that you picked (as if you actually *did* pick) the right team.
But football, as awesome as it may be for some people, will never give people a reason to believe there is something bigger than their lives. Football won't tell you that you should be OK with your miserable job, dreadful kids, and the ravages of your wife's cancer, because you'll all be going to a "better place" anyway. Football isn't a crutch, and most people need a crutch that's bigger than themselves, or their neighbors.
I'm not arguing *for* religion or church, but I do think it's important to understand that believing in something bigger than yourself, your world and your neighbors, is - to some - the opium that fills the void in their lives.
Personally, I'm strong enough to accept that this is it, and that when I die I shall rot in a hole in the ground, and that there really was no underlying, cosmic point to it all. That may sound depressing to some god botherers, but to me it's liberating, enlightening, and allows me to make all kinds of choices that those who must watch football every Sunday cannot make.
Wow. Nice blogpost! You hit the nail on the head.
I can totally relate to this, as I'm on year 15 of a "mixed marriage". I'm an Atheist, and my wife is still a believer...kind of. We rarely go to church, probably because a giggle too much during the service, but since our kids are a little older we go more often. Read: She drags me. I feel like a spy. I HATE feeling like a Phony...but the crackers are so good, I've acquired a taste for flesh.
My wife wants the kids to "be raised right" and have a community of friends and supporters. I argue that if she's looking for a social, to join the PTA, or the YMCA...anything but this silly Jesus nonsense. She even admits it mostly a social thing.
Needless to say, it's a sore spot in the marriage.
This sense of community is strong, and it's sad that we non-believers do not have a similar system...
Life is strange.
John
One of the areas I've been thinking about, is the notion of permanent education. I think it's so sad so many just stop their education so young, and give up. Also, I think education at all ages, building communities around it, is actually a concept that being volontary so many people would like to participate. So giving one day a week of time for this, meeting people with whom to share your passions and educate yourself and others, in a nice friendly atmosphere, is something that would be deeply fulfiling for the individual, and for society as a whole.
We have a society where we have emphasized money, property rights, as the value of an individual. It's not how much you know, how many different experiences you have known, and you are willing to share. If we continue that way, if all Chinese and Indians become like that and follow our footsteps, then we're all fucked up for the future.
My wife wants the kids to "be raised right" and have a community of friends and supporters. I argue that if she's looking for a social, to join the PTA, or the YMCA...anything but this silly Jesus nonsense. She even admits it mostly a social thing.
This is something the mega-churches have been especially effective at. They have their own gyms, book clubs, bible study groups, support groups, media content (and distribution)...
Through the development of all of their programs and groups, they've almost become total institutions, providing outlets in almost every aspect of social life.
The routines are simply (re)enactments of collective identity. For example "We are good Muslims. What makes us Muslim? Well, praying five times a day toward Mecca is what good Muslims do. So by praying five times a day facing Mecca we are doing what good Muslims do. We are being good Muslims. We are good Muslims." It's a performative (re)production of collective identity.
I agree with Sodding Wick, what happens in most churches has nothing to do with community for most of the members. In some small town type environments, the churches might do a better job of this, but in more populous areas, it's just a bunch of people who like the ceremony.
When I was a kid, I went every week, but was not particularly involved with the church as a community. Some people are, but they tend to be cliquish and jealous of their own little bailiwick. Now that I am an atheist, I just can't stand the hypocrisy of reciting statements of belief in things I don't believe in.
And if anybody knows of a skeptical community in Southern Maryland, I'd like to know about it.
Mrs Tilton,
yes I know, I live right next door to one too, Camp nou FCB Barcelona.
But first, you know the regular price of a ticket ? Second, watching the best matches on TV once in a while does it for me.
It's not the kind of "sacred" spaces I visit.
My wife wants the kids to "be raised right" and have a community of friends and supporters. I argue that if she's looking for a social, to join the PTA, or the YMCA...anything but this silly Jesus nonsense...
(Pushy parental advice mode on...) Seconded. Emphatically.
There's sports, there's music, there's drama schools, there's so much else your kids could be doing, so many other places they can make friends. Speaking as a kid who did spend some time in and around churchy things in formative years, that stuff's just not good for you. Social, sure, but the mangled BS that is the attached theology is more than likely to get in their way if they've even half-capable brainstems. Not healthy. Put 'em in soccer. Encourage 'em to paint or to play an instrument, if that's their thing. Go skiing with them. Give 'em a microscope or a telescope or a camera or a computer, introduce 'em to others with similar interests, let 'em live the life that leads to. If you ask me (not that anyone did, I know), raising them in and around the church is not raising them right.
(Pushy parental advice mode off...)
Re LisaJ re Barrie... I have to reject your premise re Barrie being Toronto, more or less. As I spent some decades in and around the Haliburton area, this would make me Scarberian, more or less. And I'm afraid that just won't do... Also, I hereby retract any mean things I may have said about Barrie during the recent pychic children's aid advisor weirdness... Things were said. I'm sure it wasn't justified...
Anyway: re Ottawa/Montreal... is there anyone from Montreal present who'd like to do this? We should probably keep that in mind picking a venue.
About two years ago I, my wife and our kids abruptly stopped going to church. Up to that point we had been quite heavily involved, and there was a continuity between church life, the broader community and the heritage of both of our families extending back for generations. MAJeff, you are familiar with the Christian Reformed Church, so you probably understand. By choosing to reject the beliefs, we have had to sacrifice some of the security of the tribe. So you are right to point out that for some, the church is more than beliefs.
The rich but dysfunctional social network, historical connection and ritual solemnizing is gone, and no amount of clubs or bar parties will fully replace it. Instead we have minds free to embrace whatever seems right and good and to reject and mock stupid harmful ideas. We have also discovered that there never was anything special about our group. It's very liberating to simply see people as people.
The trade-offs were worth it from the start, and become more even more favorable as time passes.
BTW, 2 out of 3 of my comments were deleted by Nisbett. Only one got posted. I don't know why.
Did he read them, and select the one that he liked ? Or did he just loose them, or not read them at all ?
I am going to send a complaint to the seed overloards.
I have a bunch of atheist spaces I regard with reverence (do we have to say sacred?). I cycle about 200km or so a week with a group of friends. That's a moving space of reverence we call a peloton. I have friends and family over for dinner and chatty-chatty, and really, my entire apartment is a revered space. I work with a bunch of people, and we have several revered spaces. I consider my local former's market a revered place where I socialize with various regulars and vendors (like a mini-pilgrimage). When I used to play with a band, the jam space and any live venue were certainly revered space. I have a favorite place I like to go and sit. And Pharyngula is a revered space for me.
Sacred spaces exist wherever places of meaning exist.
Dr. Myers,
You touch on an interesting point here...religion as an affirmation of social identity. I'd like to briefly examine the converse: social identity as religion.
A frequent case has been made here for the dangers of religion. I am not at all convinced that these dangers are uniquely religious in nature; in fact, I think that there's strong evidence that, in the absence (or even the continued presence) of genuine religion, people will create pseudo-religions based on social identity.
Let's consider, for the moment, the issue of political affiliation. There are those on both sides of the political spectrum who embrace political doctrine with a zeal equal to any religious fanatic. It's easy to see that today; we can find people flatly insisting, for example, that Saddam Hussein had WMDs, and we know it for a fact...despite all evidence to the contrary, and the admission by most of those in authority that they were "mistaken" on the issue of WMDs.
That kind of belief in the face of overwhelming contrary evidence is precisely the kind of irrational faith here associated with religion, and it requires no belief in any kind of higher power. I know staunch atheists who repeat the WMD mantra.
Nor am I excusing the fringes of the left; consider, for instance, the 9/11 conspiracy theories. A rational individual will point out that, in order to effect a controlled demolition of a building of that size, a very large work crew would have to spend a sizable chunk of time making some radical alterations to the interior of the building beforehand--alterations which would not go unnoticed. A rational individual would point this out--but for those who are convinced that 9/11 was a conspiracy, that argument won't make a dent.
It's hardly a phenomenon restricted to our own times. Fascism had its martyrs, as did anarchism. The writings of Marx ignited the fires of zealotry in the eyes of his faithful, and those fires burned as hot as those ignited by the writings of Mohammed or of St. Paul.
Thus, I pose this question: would the elimination of theism really solve the identified problems? I think it unlikely.
First of all, Dr. Myers didn't write this. Second, one of my main areas of emphasis is in queer theory--definitely suspicious of the potential tyranny of monolithic identities.
Thus, I pose this question: would the elimination of theism really solve the identified problems? I think it unlikely.
No such claim was made.
People, people, PEOPLE of Australia!!
There's already get-togethers in Australia. Check them out on the Meetup.com.
For Sydney - Skeptics In The Pub - www.skeptics.meetup.com/163/
There's also the Adelaide Conference, which should suit people in SA and nationwide, to hear skeptic and science speakers:
www.skepticssa.org.au/conf08.html
And there's skeptics in every state in Australia - such as the recent get-together for Science Week, with Michael McRae of CSIRO talking about 'Wolf in a sheep's labcoat: pseudoscience in the 20th century' - http://brisscience.org/
Honestly - follow the 2008 Dr Michael Shermer tour, like the Perth Atheists are (http://atheists.meetup.com/650/calendar/8182748/), and make it into a get-together:
http://www.scienceweek.info.au/Pages/NationalTour.aspx
Just do it! People got it together for Dr Richard Wiseman's tour last year, just start networking more. And Australia is starting to make more of a mark for younger people too:
http://skelliot.wordpress.com/young-australian-skeptics-submission/
I spent time going to a Unitarian church years ago. The fellowship started with about 5 people who wanted to connect with others. All were X-Christians and X-Jews. The meetings were held in a room at the YMCA.
As the fellowship grew, they began taking turns giving "sermons" or talks which would be used as a springboard to discussion after - "coffee time". I thought the whole thing pretty fair. Today I don't feel a strong compulsion to join such a group, even though I mainly lurk, this forum seems to fill that need well enough.
MAJeff
Separate, but equal knitting circles? Theists knit scarfs, atheists knit lingere?
MAJeff @40:
Apologies. I must have glanced at the attribution for the "Lizard Guts" story mistakenly.
You say that no such claim was made, and I agree that none was made in this article. I'm looking at the bigger picture here, though; the idea that society would be better for the absence of religion is a recurring theme here, and one I question.
We're in agreement, I think, on the danger posed when collective identity supersedes individual rationality, and religion is certainly one of the most common sources of that sort of collective identity.
I would argue, though, that in such a case, religion is the symptom, not the source--that there is a psychological drive to create such a monolithic social identity. In the absence of religion, I simply think it would manifest itself in other ways.
My Eyes! My Eyes! where are my I's?
LINGERIE
lingere - *slaps head* what's that, some new kind of pasta?
That is a pointed take. Of course, as other commenters already noted, this is still but an aspect of religion. In another perspective you can still abstract and isolate natural or philosophical claims that affect the wider society.
In yet another perspective a specific community or group is influenced by, and influencing the larger community. It is interesting that Dawkins, of all people, seems to be on top of all these aspects but most importantly the last one. His books and movies attacks the wider influences (such as pointing out systematic religious child abuse), while his web site helps people "enact community" as well.
But Pharyngula is also engaged in all these aspects, and there is strength in diversity. Nothing like a beer and a share!
[Btw, it is interesting that the now closely dueling top bloggers, cephalopolicious PZ Myers and newly awesomerandios Phil Plait, both are engaged in these broad activities.
But PZ will win this one - not only is his minions self-organizing, at Galapagos he will be f***ing close to his favorite environment of water while Phil must find his way with an unpolluted but distant view of some of the southern stars. Expect the first man lost at sea to be the Bad Astronomer.
Last minute update: Told you so!]
Mozglubov @17: I hear ya. Often enough, when I tell Torontonian acquaintances that I'm from Halifax, they think it's in Newfoundland. :[
Or they just have never heard of it. (But a lot of those ones are from, like, China, so fair enough.)
MAJeff, thanks for the post. I hope we can get some more social-sciences-enlightened material out of you. It's very refreshing.
Oops, too hasty, it wasn't Phil's laptop that needed healing. Seems he has pre-scheduled posts and will twitter as well. Oh well, at least he cedes the advantage to PZ for now.
It's funny how much Durkheim's model of "sacred spaces" resembles Avalos's model of "the creation of scarce resources".
Looks NOMNOMNOble any which way, though.
I think it is instructive to look at the successful methods of Pentecostalism and the mega-churches:
http://lippard.blogspot.com/2007/11/rise-of-pentecostalism-and-economis…
Neg @34,
Camp nou FCB Barcelona.... But first, you know the regular price of a ticket ?
Less than tithing, I suspect.
Oh, and yeah: visca Barca!
Well, as an Israeli, I know that the synagogue serves in many cases as a mere meeting house as well. Though it's rarer in my parts. In my parts, temple-goers are honest-to-gosh believers.
Frankly, I don't see the word "Church" as a bad word. People need to gather up. It used to be the camp fire, now it's big stone and marble cathedrals (or in Metro-Holy-Land - garage-looking synagogue).
I think people of the same worldview need to unite, or at least they're damn well better be. Loners are always weaker than groups, and seeing what goes on in Pharyngula every day, I know I don't HAVE to be alone. (Though I'm probably quite a loner in Israel, atheism is so detested in Judaism that it's not even a taboo here, it's simply unheard of, atheists like me just pretend to be secular Jews. Most of the time, it's pretty much the same thing, anyway.)
"I've also seen a few Massholes (what do we call ourselves?) saying they'd like to get together again?"
Bay Staters. :)
Source: http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/2-35.htm
Bay Staters. :)
Source: http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/2-35.htm
That made me giggle. It's actually enacted in law.
I have mentioned before the difference between how sports are organised in Europe and the US. In the US it seems to be much more school based, with less opportunity for those who have left school to take part in representative sport for the local team.
In a moment of what could be either genius, or, more likely, stupidity, it occurred to me that this might also partly account for the differences in church attendance between Europe and the US. MAJeff is quite right in pointing out that for a good number of people, church-going is more about the interaction with others than it is about worship. It strikes me that turning up every week to play for a football, rugby, cricket team (or take part in any other sport) can offer a similar opportunity for such interaction.
When I was much younger and in much better shape I found my sacred space on the rocks. We had weekly meetings and expeditions to the cliffs to commune. The rock climbing club had a common goal, attitude and community. We knew each other well. Cared for each other and even swapped girlfriends occasionally, though that's still a sore spot for some. But still we had 'it' that I never found in a church or similar 'community'. There was no need for gods. just nature and it's majesty.
Hug your radio! Here in Nor Cal there is not only NPR but the old lady of the Pacifica network, KPFA. On Sunday, there is a sermon, with response from the congregation, followed by sacred music. Before teh toobs were, as a child and adolescent I was hooked up to a community at least 200 miles in diameter. Some can't feel the shoulders of the other listeners, but if you find the right program(s), you will.
Ottawa: Sept 26 is OK I think; I'll just make sure we don't go on vacation that week (We go camping at wierd times of year. Less crowded.) Is it too early to discuss venues? I nominate the Clocktower Brewpub at Bank & 417.
That guy who used to hang around here might as well just stay down in the islands with the finches & tortoises.
Since all five of the current "most active" Top Five posts in this domain are the products of "PZMinions", the dude with the teddy bear and messy hair is clearly superfluous now.
I'm up for an Ottawa Pharyngufest even though I live in Jasper (On).
I oncet had a dachsund from Barrie.
Just saying.
Hey Eamon.
Eamon, The Clocktower sounds good to me. It's not too far from where I live.
AJ Milne. I did not catch a connection between Barrie and the recent psychic children's aid advisor thing. Did that happen in Barrie?
Mozglubov (#17) and Breakfast #47:
My father's family first immigrated to Wolfville, NS and then eventually to Chilliwack, BC. I'm from a small town in Oregon, so both of your complaints have a familiar ring to them.
I still have family in Halifax, BTW.
Pierce @ #60. We're the most popular, really? Great observation, that's exciting!
Another one from Ottawa here (the one in Canada)! September 26th would be a hoot. Let us know when and where. :)
I have read these posts with considerable interest. For more than 50 years I have been concerned with the influence of organized religion on our political and social life in the U.S. as a staunch advocate of separation of church and state; cf: the SC decision ending Bible-reading in public schools, Abington vs. Schempp (1963).
I am a staunch humanist and atheist, and a member of American Humanists, Freedom from Religion, several skeptical societies, the Naturalist Society, the NCSE, Americans United, the ACLU,... and I also am a member of a Unitarian-Universalist church, which I attend often with my fiance, who comes from a Jewish background. {Several of these groups have given me recognitions, which I believe properly belong to my parents, the ACLU and their attorney Henry Sawyer, the Warren Court, and UUs.}
This is not hypocritical. Firstly, not all UU churches are equal--I have chosen one that is pretty humanist. And were it not for the UU tradition of free-thought and seeking understanding of many different traditions, I would not have been so secure in standing up for the First Amendment.
Secondly, we humans are social animals. There is benefit in being with like-minded people, both for enlarging one own's thoughts and for sharing thoughts that others might find of value.
I think that some ceremony and ritual is acceptable. One does not have to attach magical thinking to such. In my case, I am familiar with certain UU ceremonies from boyhood, and I like to sing hymns. Just for enjoyment. Nobody at my church thinks this is "worship", obeisance to a god.
Interestingly, Arlene does not like singing, and finds the phrase "going to church" almost incomprehensible. We had different early experiences. But she likes the people at our UU congregation and finds many of kinship with her thoughts.
Ethical Culture, various reformed Jewish Congregations, also welcome skeptics and former believers.
There has been a great decline in social organizations in the USA that were formerly important--labor unions, political party meetings, fraternal organizations---and so, only churches remain. This may help explain why churches have emerged as the major social groupings/self identifying means in our society. This is different than in Europe or India or Brazil, for examples.
I think an affiliation with a religious group is wholly respectable from an atheist and separation of church&state perspective. An appreciation of heritage, hearing a good talk ('sermon'), participating in the heritage and concerns of others, seems to me to be valid in our humanness and a dedication to rational values.
Cheers,
Ellery Schempp
Here's the story LisaJ
"Psychic's claim of abused child has Barrie, Ont., mom demanding apology"
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/06/17/5905126-cp.html
Re Barrie, I'm afraid so. Terry Fox Elementary, 100 Livingstone E, Barrie, ON, to be specific.
Re the Clocktower, Eamon probably can already guess this, but that so absolutely works for me. Seconded.
Clocktower location, for those mulling this.
Sodding Wick @#17/P Z Myers @#18
I've been to churches like that too but how does that make them "counterfeit communities"? Where is it set out exactly what depth of involvement and commitment is necessary before a group of people can legitimately call themselves a community? Sounds a bit too much like the "No True Scotsman" fallacy to me.
Besides, setting aside all the supernatural nonsense, aren't we more or less all in agreement that what makes religions so influential are their capacity to bind people into communities that can survive even in the face of the most terrible hardships. A few moribund congregations in rich Western countries don't change that reality.
It's great that Dawkins et al speak out as they do. They are telling the truth as they see it without regard to the political and social consequences. But anyone who thinks it is going to put a serious dent in religious belief on this planet any time soon does not live on it.
Bokoppp and AJ Milne. Thanks for clarifying that for me. Man, that's disturbing. There's a reason I call it Crazy Barrie.
It's looking like so far everyone's on for the Cloctower on Bank Street (in Ottawa) for Friday September 26th. Anyone want to counter that? If not, I say we make that our plan. 8pm sound good?
I tend to feel like this is a non issue. Well, as to the sub topic of atheists forming clubs and having their own "scared spaces", I'm kind of skeptical about that. Yes, we'd often share things in common, interesting conversations could be had, etc, but... by definition the only thing we'd share would be the lack of something.
To take the now classic joke, do people who don't collect stamps form a club?
As to the social function of groups as a whole, it seems to me there are plenty to choose from. I used to (and one day hope to again) fly remote control airplanes. We had monthly meetings away from the flying field, and you could typically find people at the flying field at least two times a week if the weather was good. Yes, the unifying theme was the remote control planes, but we spent a lot of the time at the field standing or sitting around talking as well. It was a social club too.
Similarly I could join my local science fiction and fantasy society. Or find a photography club. As a computer gamer I could find local LAN parties (an event where people congregate and bring their computers, connect them together, and play multiplayer games until the wee hours of the morning) to attend.
It's not as if religion is the only place such social groupings occur. Although I understand that it may tend to become more of the defacto social organization in smaller towns. Which just makes me think I could never live in such a town.
Actually I think churches are already having to fight to regain the social focus. I've seen a church sponsor a LAN party. Which strikes me as ludicrous, what with modern gaming's primary focus on violence and killing, and the church's theoretical opposition to such things.
A local church appears to have opened up a sort of coffee shop inside their building.
I mean, I guess this demonstrates the importance of the whole social thing, but from where I'm standing churches are struggling to remain relevant.
I'm just not standing in the middle of rural, fundamentalist America. And thank whatever deity you wish for that.
Due to my lack of a firm position mostly, but also because it may need to be done, I'd like to see a serious discussion about secular churches, or perhaps 'churches'
Being a very social person I have managed to find numerous like minded people without having to try to hard. Still, I am always up for more discourse on the subject of atheism. That is why I come here. If there was a local meet up I would be sure to attend. I have far to many friends/family of the opposite ilk.
Nomad:
I appreciate your post. Indeed, not collecting stamps is not a hobby. Not believing in a god is not a religion.
You understand that this is a critical legal matter in Mike Newdow's arguments regarding "under god" in the pledge.
Absence of religion is not a religion. Secularism means "without regard to religious views."
It is a grevious dichotomy for pastors/priests to suggest that secular means antagonism to religious believers. Some churches promote this view--"you are either for spiritual or you are attacking religion".
What, indeed, does "spiritual" mean?
This is nonsense. There is a position of neutrality for government. Individuals can believe whatever "spiritual" notions, but the business of our governments is secular matters. More prayer does not help, as we all know.
It is grave mistake to imagine that religious promoters are concerned with human values. (which god or faith promoter to pray to; which personal submission/confession/sin makes this god happy??) or against religion (which one?)in the Constitution.
There is a valid position for secularism--which is neutral with regard to personal religious notions--belief in whatever god one prefers in one's community. Neutrality cannot be defined out of existence "by their much speaking". Nor by their much tithing--to the benefit of pastors who need money.
In every time, during many centuries, in many cultures, priests and ministers have tried to capture the power of secular government to promote their own agendas.
Getting local governments dealing with roads, schools, parks, etc., seems more important to me than having some prayer to an unidentified deity that has never saved any of us.
Years ago, I objected to having the Bible presented in public schools as an "authorative source" considering different traditions for "godly morality".
Schempp
The Ottawa meet sounds fun, but it's about 5 1/5 hours from Guelph to Ottawa, and the 26th is a workday. Now the 27th...
MAJeff - nice one !
I just arrived so have not read all 74 comments yet, but, le bon vin coule, so I speak now lest I be silenced
In creating, say, the Olympics, the Nobel prizes et les United Nations are 'we' not attemting to almalgamate both profane & sacred ?
In creating, say, the Olympics, the Nobel prizes et les United Nations are 'we' not attemting to almalgamate both profane & sacred ?
The medal ceremonies are particularly "sacred" spaces--the ritual enactment of national identities through the raising of flags and playing of anthems (civil religion).
Hmmm, that's a good point Alexandra (@ #76). What does everyone think about moving the Ottawa Pharyngufest to Saturday Sept. 27th to allow people who are a few hours away fom Ottawa by car to make it as well? This would work fine for me.
Well, it's Sunday morning where I am; as mentioned upthread I'm going to choose the temple of my body over the temple/s god/s and go to the gym.
I wanna be a buff, grumpy, uncharismatic male loner...
ellery |#75
Respect
Sydney Skeptic @41, Thanks heaps for the links, I'll be investigating all of them shortly. I've found it very hard to find this sort of thing in Sydney, atheists are famous for a lack of central organization. I'm sure Clinteas @4 feels the same way.
As we're going down this route are there any other meetups or groups in Aus that would like to announce themselves?
MAJeff, OM |#78
Not in the 'profane', sense, which, oooooh, these are, no divinities etc invoked here.
Or, let's support our lads & lasses wether blek bastids, gyppos, cheese eating surrender monkeez, sausage-stuffing nazteez, gritsuckerz, friedmarsbar eating motherhumperz, slitty-eyed etc etc etc ? Doh.
And we rejoice in the victory of the one who won, because, they won. They tried like fuck, sorry, and they won.. It was beautifl to watch, and we love them for it because WE all watched and shared it. WE became a grerater community because of it.
September 27 is fine for me as well. Since I don't have a car at the moment, it'll be a chance to meet some of the others here in person.
Everyone always gives Toronto a hard time... but really, at least people have heard of Ottawa and know it is in Ontario. I'm originally from a really small town in BC, and so when I say I'm from BC or going to BC to visit my family, people always say things like, "Oh, where in Vancouver are you from?" and "Have fun in Vancouver!" It just always confuses me that people view BC and Vancouver as interchangeable geographic labels...
Mozgluboy, some people tend to shut off their brains when talking with others. London is the fourth largest city in the province, but even so, telling people that you drove down to London during the weekend should clue them in as to which London you're talking about. You'd be surprised how often people asked me if it was London England which I drove to. "Sure, once we over-inflated the tires and rolled up the windows, the Atlantic Ocean was no problem."
There are all kinds of non-religious social venues to choose from, so I've never felt any particular need to seek out any specifically atheist gatherings to attend. I've had a lot of fun at sci-fi conventions, contra dance camps, macintosh developer conferences, block parties, hot tubs, road trips, ren faires, bike trips, ski trips, and the list goes on and on.
-jcr
Incidentally, I've been an avid stamp non-collector for my entire life. Lately, I've also been actively not-quilting and I'm thinking of getting much more involved in not playing soccer.
-jcr
Guys, you're doing it all wrong. Nisbet said PZ's minions are mostly grumpy, uncharismatic loners. All this talk of happy, friendly socialisation is just not on.
He couldn't possibly be wrong, could he? Not the man with the 14th 13th most popular science blog?
I'm going to LA for the unsinkable thing, look for the guy with the tape recorder. I'll wear a name tag.
BTW the Ray Comfort part of this show is very funny. I played sound clips of Ray on unsuspecting co-hosts to get reactions. Lots of giggling and great responses
Hmmm, that's a good point Alexandra (@ #76). What does everyone think about moving the Ottawa Pharyngufest to Saturday Sept. 27th to allow people who are a few hours away fom Ottawa by car to make it as well?
(Marks calendar...) Works for me.
are 'we' not attemting to almalgamate both profane & sacred ?
proofread ?
Ok, I went to the NYCSkeptics/Sciblogs meetup dealie today, and I have to say, I'd like to see the creation of a sort of fellowship of atheists and freethinkers that could fill the same social needs of a church.
I do think, as someone who spent a great deal of time in their youth in a church, and whose grandparents were devoted churchgoers much more than they were religious, that there IS something socially useful in regular churchgoing. It's a guaranteed community of people you have at least something in common with, that you see at least once a week, that provides a solid base of social activity.
Of course, with a normal church, the disadvantages of theism completely and overwhelmingly outweigh the advantages. But I've given some thought to finding a UU congregation, and I would certainly join an atheist/freethinking community of fellowship that was organized along the same lines. If nothing else, a reality-based Sunday Science School would be freakin' sweet for the kids. ^_^
Ok, I went to the NYCSkeptics/Sciblogs meetup dealie today, and I have to say, I'd like to see the creation of a sort of fellowship of atheists and freethinkers that could fill the same social needs of a church.
I do think, as someone who spent a great deal of time in their youth in a church, and whose grandparents were devoted churchgoers much more than they were religious, that there IS something socially useful in regular churchgoing. It's a guaranteed community of people you have at least something in common with, that you see at least once a week, that provides a solid base of social activity.
Of course, with a normal church, the disadvantages of theism completely and overwhelmingly outweigh the advantages. But I've given some thought to finding a UU congregation, and I would certainly join an atheist/freethinking community of fellowship that was organized along the same lines. If nothing else, a reality-based Sunday Science School would be freakin' sweet for the kids. ^_^
Ok, I swear, the thing SAID it timed out and it didn't go through. Honest!
@ #50 Torbjörn Larsson, OM:
Watch it, dude - you're gonna get our man MAJeff all hot and bothered. ;-)
@ #60 Pierce R. Butler:
Teddy bear? What about the furry stuffed octopus?
I completely agree with the social thing. I think one of the main reasons for people's reluctance to leave their faith is their fear of losing that sort of community connection.
And I think it's absolutely true that atheists should make more of an effort to create such connections.
Also, any Victorians (BC) here?
@9# 2Falyne, FCD -
Two links that you could check out:
NYC Atheists - been around for a while: http://atheists.meetup.com/24/
And for those with kids - NPR report on skeptic / freethinker camp for children - Camp Inquiry:
http://podblack.com/?p=825
Nisbet? He still has a blog here?
I begin to suspect that Nisbet really is on our side and is working a long, slow campaign to undermine those people who demonize us, by demonizing us himself in the most absurd way. The "Don Imus Atheist" meme now serves more to ridicule Nisbet, than to convince anyone of the truth of his accusations. A 'communications expert' can't be that bad at communicating. Thus, it must all be a stealth op.
And on the off chance it's not a clever ruse, and this is his idea of winning an argument... well, in that case I wish him the best of luck in all his future endeavors.
I was brought up atheist/agnostic, but got sucked into a church group for about 15 years once I left home. I think now, looking back, that it was the friendly social atmosphere that appealed to me as a girl feeling alone in the world. I had a good time socially and 'believed' their version of christianity for most of that time, but I eventually got into Uni as a mature-aged student and started thinking about things more critically.
I began to slide back into my former atheist/agnostic mindset, as I came to realise how the religious beliefs really didn't mesh with reality that well. But I hung around in the church for a couple of more years after I knew I really wasn't 'with the program' any more, for fear of losing the social contacts. Eventually I had to go for my own self esteem. Not only did I no longer 'believe' I was feeling so ashamed at hanging around with them knowing they thought I was still a 'believer'. I left when I felt I could no longer act the part.
But I can see how it would be much harder for those, who invest greater importance on social standing than I do, to even consider walking away from the community of their church. Or how dangerous it would feel to even consider not supporting it.
"Pop, why do you go to services? You're an atheist!"
"Goldstein goes to talk to God. I go to talk to Goldstein."
--old Yiddish joke
I've decided to create an homeopathic religion.
Each time the group meets, the rituals are diluted. Eventually, the rituals are so unnoticeable that they might as well not exist at all, and everyone is cured!
Damn, people are talking about coming all the way from Guelph just to see a few fellow Pharynguloids? For that we should make it An Event -- like, visit the Museum of Nature beforehand (conveniently located just around the corner from the Clocktower, if you see what I mean...um, how much of MoN is open at the moment? It's been under reno for the last year or so.)
@ # 94, themadlolscientist, FCD
Sex and food are the way to any man's heart. Throw in some beer and you may have a date on your hands.
About half the galleries at the Musuem of Nature are closed 'till 2010 but there's still some interesting stuff to see. Unfortunately it's all vertebrates all the time so don't tell PZ.
http://nature.ca/exhibits/natcap_e.cfm
A little late, I am definitely down for either the Friday or Saturday, the Clock Tower is a 15 minute walk from my place so I wont have any problems showing up whenever.
His kingdom is more widely spread than ever before...
Napoleon and Goethe...
And there is no sign that his power is waning. His kingdom is more widely spread than ever before, and has the fairest prospect of final triumph in all the earth. Napoleon at St. Helena is reported to have been struck with the reflection that millions are now ready to die for the crucified Nazarene who founded a spiritual empire by love, while no one would die for Alexander, or Caesar, or himself, who founded temporal empires by force. He saw in this contrast a convincing argument for the divinity of Christ, saying: "I know men, and I tell you, Christ was not a man. Everything about Christ astonishes me. His spirit overwhelms and confounds me. There is no comparison between him and any other being. He stands single and alone. And Goethe, another commanding genius, of very different character, but equally above suspicion of partiality for religion, looking in the last years of his life over the vast field of history, was constrained to confess that "if ever the Divine appeared on earth, it was in the Person of Christ," and that "the human mind, no matter how far it may advance in every other department, will never transcend the height and moral culture of Christianity as it shines and glows in the Gospels."
I'd love to meet up with fellow CDN Pharynguloids and a few beers.
27th gets my vote.
Live near Kingston, ON - but I'm Ottawati at heart...
Hi all Ottawa Pharynguloids,
Count me in for the PharynguFest on either Sept. 26 or 27th. I was actually going to suggest the Clocktower, so obviously I think it would make a fine venue. Perhaps someone should warn them though, as it isn't that big a place.
Eamon, I haven't been to the Museum of Nature in years - I'm game for a pre-meet visit.
Also, for those who would be looking for a place to eat, there are lots of places along Bank St., and the Clocktower dinners are ok (not great but you can stay away from the typical pub fare if you choose).
What a fascinating, thought provoking post. I've been a staunch atheist for as long as I can remember, and have never felt comfortable in church (quite the opposite in fact), but I've been a student of Aikido for many years, and can now view my training sessions in a different light. Of course there are the obvious physical and physiological benefits to training in a martial art, and even obvious mental benefits like providing stimulation through learning, relaxation through a shift in focus, etc, but I've never considered the social "group bonding" element before.
I'm always amazed at how blind I can be to something that seems so obvious once pointed out.
First time post, BTW. Hello to all.