I didn't do it!

Although I was actually in Guayaquil the day before brave heroes despoiled another cracker&hellip:

In response to criticisms by the nation's Catholic bishops regarding pro-abortion and anti-family language in Ecuador's new proposed Constitution, a group of people entered a chapel in Guayaquil, grabbed the Eucharistic host that was exposed for adoration, tore it apart, spat on it, and stepped on it, according to ACI Prensa.

…I was actually a thousand kilometers away on the island of Santa Cruz when the action went down. Clenched fist salute, anyway!

Note that the quote is from the crazy anti-choice site, LifeSite, and that the "anti-family language" is actually pro-family planning language, and is a generally good thing unless you you've been infected with a fanatical hatred of contraception and abortion by a nominally celibate man in a dress.

More like this

Evolving Complexity tagged me in.  Here they are: 5 Things I Was Doing 10 Years Ago Buzzing on yerba maté Learning Portuguese Living in Asunción's transvestite district Picking out sites for the incoming Peace Corps volunteers Applying to graduate school 5 Things On My To-Do List Today Process…
I just flew back from Washington, and boy are my arms tired. Expect blogging to be intermittent for a little while. To fill the time, I suggest voting, and volunteering to get Obama elected and to defeat anti-family initiatives like Prop. 8 in California.
You gotta love this kind of fevered rhetoric from the religious right: The president of the American Family Association (AFA) of Pennsylvania says lawmakers in her state have voted to destroy traditional marriage. The pro-family group is decrying a move by Pennsylvania senators that weakened a…
Bin Laden's dead. Still other things worth linking to though. Science: Hiding the doomsday device: camouflage and venom in stonefishAcculturating students to scienceFalsehood: "If this was the Stone Age, I'd be dead by now" Other: Earth to Libertarians: Private Parties Have Coercive Power…

I love it!

"In Guayaquil we have returned to flagellating our Lord, who like a silent lamb has received all of these offenses."

As if their make-believe Lord could do anything BUT suffer in silence.

The article also suggests that these people have been sending death threats with the phrase "Death to Pro-Lifers"

So maybe not so much with these ones....

The controversy has arisen from the Episcopal Conference's warning that the new proposed constitution of Alianza PAIS would open the door to the legalization of abortion and the promotion of homosexuality, rob parents of the educational rights of their children, and create the framework for an excessively powerful government

...they've got my vote!

Come on, PZ. Your mere presence made that happen, admit it. You know, what with the ilk being everywhere...
That article is amazing, though. Why is everything these kind of people are opposed to always connected in their mind? Why is any given threat socialist and homosexuality-enabling and abortion-rate-increasing and "powerful government" and always mashed up into one big Jesus-defying conspiracy? Also, being afraid of socialists is so... fifties.

The diocese explained that "when a sacrilege is carried out, especially concerning the Eucharistic species, the entire Church is called to pray together to heal the offense committed against the Lord Jesus Christ, who is alive and present in those hosts."

They are crackers (both the wafer and the LifeSite pinheads! "Eucharist species?"

Does this mean that the crackers evolved from wheat, water, baking soda, and a little lard?

So I was reading that link and ...um

In response to the string of profanations, Archbishop Antonio Arregui Yarza of Guayaquil held a mass yesterday in reparation. The diocese explained that "when a sacrilege is carried out, especially concerning the Eucharistic species, the entire Church is called to pray together to heal the offense committed against the Lord Jesus Christ, who is alive and present in those hosts."

wtf?

Eucharistic species?

Does this mean that the crackers evolved from wheat, water, baking soda, and a little lard?

That's okay though - it's only microwaveevolution. The church doesn't have a problem with that, because it's still wheat and hasn't changed into a new "kind" of food.

Here's a nice poll to crash at MSNBC: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10103521/ Should "In God We Trust" be removed from U.S. currency?

Nice to have you back PZ, although your fill-ins did an excellent job.

Far as I can tell... the only difference is that they used their heels instead of their molars. After all, they did employ the use of saliva. Religion is so ridiculous.

By SteadyEddy (not verified) on 18 Aug 2008 #permalink

I have a friend from Ecuador that will be most happy to hear this. The absurd amounts of abuse the Catholic church has done in Latin America should have some backlash! They were agents of genocide, and I don't know how we, Hispanics raised Catholic, can really block that out of our collective memories.

OT to KoT:
missing that crucial "p" from your sig URL again, dude.

By Sven DiMilo (not verified) on 18 Aug 2008 #permalink

Qwerty @5,

the crackers evolved from wheat, water, baking soda, and a little lard

Baking soda? BAKING SODA???!!! As every catholic schoolchild knows, Our Lord And Saviour can only be conjured into unleavened bread. Burn, heretic!

Also, as the wafer derives from the matzot served at the traditional Jewish seder, I suspect they are not made with lard. (Or, if they are, they have evolved indeed!)

Rev @7,

wtf? Eucharistic species?

If you had Latin forced into your head as a kid, that's not quite as stupid as it sounds. The concept is pretty damned stupid, mind; just not the terminology.

Oh, and PZ? I am so stealing "nominally celibate man in a dress".

So crackers that a priest has chanted over are a species? What's the Catholic Church going to do when all this medieval stupidity finally buckles under its own weight--you know, sometime in the twenty second century? (So sue me, I'm an optimist.)

By RamblinDude (not verified) on 18 Aug 2008 #permalink

Mrs. Tilton,
I was (note the was) raised Catholic, but have fallen under the spell of PZ and I gave what I thought were the ingredients (without checking a recipe off the top of my head) for CRACKERS! I guess that means I'll have to spend another kazillion years in purgatory while my sainted mother in heaven says enless rosaries to get me upstairs.

Forgive me father... Now, say five Hail Marys and the Act of Contrition.

Yours, Qwerty, new member of the "Ilk."

PZ, if you're still at the Miami airport, you are 39 miles south of where I live. I hope you're enjoying Tropical Storm Fay.

Cracker abuse has spread to Ecuador. That's great. I bet they got the idea from PZ's blog.

actually, the story made me want to throw up. just what the hell are we up against here?

By Tom (again) (not verified) on 18 Aug 2008 #permalink

If you had Latin forced into your head as a kid, that's not quite as stupid as it sounds. The concept is pretty damned stupid, mind; just not the terminology.

Can you explain? I was latin deficient in my schooling.... well one year but I was too busy lusting over my latin teacher to pay attention.

Good for them, but I'm not sure I agree with any raiding.

Be subtle when taking the host. Don't wreck.

Dude @14,

So crackers that a priest has chanted over are a species?

Well, I think mere chanting is not enough, he also needs to make certain dramatic gestures. But yes, that's a species. In fact, more or less everything is a species. "Species", in classical Latin, means simply "kind". (So the more traditional creationists, when they insist that there are no species but merely kinds, are being even stupider than they strictly speaking need to be.)

But in the technical language of scholastic philosophy -- the primary school of thought informing mediaeval (and, therefore, current) RC theology -- "species" also means something like "form", as in, "the specific form something with a give essence takes". So, once the nominally celibate man in a dress (cheers, PZ!) has wiggled his nominally celibate magic wand, the wafer is the "species" that God Almighty Himself has taken on as His outward appearance.

As I said, the terminology makes perfect sense as a technical matter; but when one starts to think that the wafer one holds in one's hand is in fact the Omnipotent Author Of All Existence, one ought perhaps to have a lie-down till one feels better.

Qwerty @15,

I'm not your father, so far as I know, and I'm sure you've done nothing I need to forgive you for. And I'm afraid that you are not going to spend one second less in purgatory if your sainted mother prays for you (not one second more, either). Still, for your penance, read a chapter of Emma Goldman, and then go out and do something unexpected and kind for somebody (and be sure to explain that you are doing so because kindness is valuable for its own sake, not because a nominally celibate man in a dress told you that a nominally existing man in the sky values kindness).

Mrs. Tilton said:

"So, once the nominally celibate man in a dress (cheers, PZ!) has wiggled his nominally celibate magic wand"

That gave me a really, really bad picture in my head. I hope I can get it out.

Violence against the Catholic Church has been part of political protest in Latin America for 400 years. The Church has always been heavly involved in government an usually on the side of the patrones and the jefes, so radical ire is often directed toward the Church.

The tradition of protest against the Church, including violent protest goes back to Europe. There have been many anti-clerical movements in Spain, and Italy, and the French Revolution saw the siezure of church lands and the mass execution of clergy.

Slightly OT, but it ought to be addressed: the USA seems to be getting MORE religiously wacko by the moment. CandP below of CNN report:

CHICAGO, Illinois (AP) -- When it comes to saving lives, God trumps doctors for many Americans.

An eye-opening survey reveals widespread belief that divine intervention can revive dying patients. And, researchers said, doctors "need to be prepared to deal with families who are waiting for a miracle."

More than half of randomly surveyed adults -- 57 percent -- said God's intervention could save a family member even if physicians declared treatment would be futile. And nearly three-quarters said patients have a right to demand that treatment continue.

When asked to imagine their own relatives being gravely ill or injured, nearly 20 percent of doctors and other medical workers said God could reverse a hopeless outcome.

"Sensitivity to this belief will promote development of a trusting relationship" with patients and their families, according to researchers. That trust, they said, is needed to help doctors explain objective, overwhelming scientific evidence showing that continued treatment would be worthless.

Hairhead here: When 20 per cent of *doctors* for FSM sake believe in *miracles*, the Americans' health care system seems to be going to the dogs (viz. the current agitation for doctors to be able to "refuse treatment based upon religious objections" to those they don't like. Honestly, you people (I'm Canadian) are so fucked if you don't stop this train going off the cliff.

Mrs. Tilton, I know you are not my father. I had a momentary return to St. Clements. The parish of my unspent youth. (Not misspent, unspent as I was such an innocent chlid.)

Anyhow, I know who Emma Goldman is. She was a character in the musical "Tintypes" who was wonderfully played by Mary Catherine Wright.

She was also portrayed in the musical "Ragtime" by Judy Kaye. (Okay, I am sure you've figured out that I am a theater queen. Turn-turn-kick-turn!)

Oh, yes, in real life she was a rabble-rouser during the early 1900's who was deported during the red-scare of the early 1920s. Her biggest crime was that she had a big mouth and often used it to speak against injustice and poverty.

Tom, the UK one, @ # 17

Awful. This Mr Zaidi seems a complete nut, even according to the standards of his community:

"The court heard how Mr Zaidi had attended a meeting at the community centre two days before the ceremony, where it was made plain that children under the age of 16 should not participate."

And :

"This devout man (sic) used considerable force upon himself, clearly causing injuries, and causing others present to fear for his safety to such an extent that they started to intervene and calm him down."

At least, he shouldn't be allowed to act as "spiritual leader" of impressionnable young boys, if he's crazy.

You need a bunch of freethinkers to have a decent communion. A Unitarian cleric in Eastern Europe (jailed and executed by Nazis) introduced the Flower Communion: Each congregant brings a flower to the early summer gathering and at the end takes a flower, but a different one. This summer our parish took it a bit further and had a late summer Zucchini Communion (other veggies could be substituted). Some parishes, I've been told by our minister [but he's such a wag] commemorate the death of founder Michael Servetus (burned at the stake by Calvin's crowd) by having a barbecue.

By stillwaggon (not verified) on 18 Aug 2008 #permalink

Don't miss the best Italian restaurant in Guyaquil at the Hilton Hotel (of all places). Probably the best restaurant in Ecuador.

By CanadaGoose (not verified) on 18 Aug 2008 #permalink

Slightly off topic, but I just had to share the good news from California that just appeared in the SF Chronicle: "State Supreme Court says doctors must treat gays and lesbians." Here is a link to the article: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/18/BA2212D6H4…

Doctors can no longer use their religion as an excuse to refuse medical treatment to gay and lesbians. Now, us Californians have to defeat Prop 8, in the upcoming election, which attempts to make same sex marriage illegal.

By sfatheist (not verified) on 18 Aug 2008 #permalink

Jesus: "My it's dull here on display. Oh, good, someone is paying attention to me. Hey! Ow! Who the Fuck!?! Quit spitting on me! Oh, crap, I see heel."

Now don't you heathen feel guilty?

By fatherdaddy (not verified) on 18 Aug 2008 #permalink

"Why is everything these kind of people are opposed to always connected in their mind? Why is any given threat socialist and homosexuality-enabling and abortion-rate-increasing and "powerful government" and always mashed up into one big Jesus-defying conspiracy? "

I got some right-wing spam in my inbox today, here it is:

"Weekly top news
Bid Laden support for Gay Marriage

A new video of the al-Quaeda chief was posted on the internet today in which he called for praise and understanding of "our brethren who share the same bed".

So stupid it's actually funny.

Huzzah! Looks like you started something PZ. Now that they have identified the cracker as a species are you going to work on it's genome?
The stories linked to the article were pretty good too. Nice to see Ian McCellen keeping up the good fight. :)
Did you take a flock of regulars with you PZ? BrokenSoldier, Holbach, and Etha seem to be MIA. :(

Tony, there is obviously nothing wrong with gays and lesbians, I was just quoting the Headline appearing in the on-line version of the San Francisco Chronicle.

"Doctors in California must treat gays and lesbians the same as any other patient, regardless of religious objections, the state Supreme Court ruled today. In a unanimous decision, the court rejected a San Diego County fertility clinic's attempt to use its physicians' religious beliefs as a justification for their refusal to provide artificial insemination for a lesbian couple."

By sfatheist (not verified) on 18 Aug 2008 #permalink

Man. Every time I think I can't be surprised at the stupidity of this country, I get a new surprise.
Fortunately in the case of the "Doctors must treat gays" news, the change is for the positive... but I'm surprised that doctors who refused didn't immediately lose their licenses BEFORE this... Why didn't the AMA push this issue?

So were they given this cracker or did they snatch it as the text above sort of implies?

I don't care what someone does to their own stuff, but it crosses a line to steal something, even a cracker for some political statement.

I had no issue with the guy who took the cracker those guys gave him and just left with it. I had no issue with PZ here tossing out a cracker someone sent him. If these guys stole it, I take issue with it. That crosses the line between free expression and attack.

By Dark Jaguar (not verified) on 18 Aug 2008 #permalink

On a related note, their objection and demonstrating even on church grounds (until they are kicked off) are fine, but if they spat on and stomped it into carpet, that's a mess they made and that too crosses a line.

Don't get me wrong, I'm for the sentiment and it's not like they would have done MUCH wrong, but that's no excuse and aside from being wrong, it also undermines the whole point of doing such a thing, which is to show there's no point in revering it. Property rights should still be respected.

By Dark Jaguar (not verified) on 18 Aug 2008 #permalink

From the link in #33

Attorney Brad Dacus of the Pacific Justice Institute, a conservative group that filed arguments supporting the doctors, called today's ruling "the epitome of intolerance" and said it forces the defendants "to choose between being doctors in the state of California or being able to practice their faith."

If your prejudices don't allow you to treat patients, then maybe you should go into another line of work. Garbage collecting still allows you to perform a useful function and shouldn't involve anything that'll upset your skyfairy.

What's the equation of human beings relating to each other here.
This is a offensive act from hatred. It is meant to be as hateful as possible to the cherished beliefs, values and culture of other people.
Why is this Myers guy applauding this. If someone did something offensive against homosexuality identity, or ethnic identity, would it be ok? It seems to be pushed on this forum that there are not common standards but simple raw instincts of who can be offended and who can't.
Words and actions otherwise not illegal are most certainly punished/censored by the present liberal establishment. If there is not equality then there will be no moral legitamacy for the establishment to enforce standards not actually illegal. They can't say No to negative or seeming negative comments about gays/ethnics/women if others are fair game. This is a losing strategy as any one in establishment politics knows.
Therefore myers and gang here are amateurs and blunderers.
What's with the hatred anyways? All good things are from the superior civilization created by Christiandom. You don't like it then find somewhere more to your liking.

By Robert Byers (not verified) on 18 Aug 2008 #permalink

All good things are from the superior civilization created by Christiandom.

Including the Inquisition, the coverup of pedophile priests, and kosher hot dogs.

Mrs Tilton, #22 "Well, I think mere chanting is not enough, he also needs to make certain dramatic gestures. But yes, that's a species.

Ah, but of course, the usually short lived Crustum animachristo. A surprisingly hardy species that flourishes in the darker and more stagnant areas of the human mind. (Said to be endowed with a highly developed nervous system with sophisticated pain sensors.)

Thanks, I wondered if the application of the word was in some way reasonable. Knowing that it is somehow makes the whole thing even sillier, though.

By RamblinDude (not verified) on 18 Aug 2008 #permalink

"Why is this Myers guy applauding this. If someone did something offensive against homosexuality identity, or ethnic identity, would it be ok?"

STOP. Stop this bullshit of equating criticism of beliefs with bigotry.

People are born gay. They are born with their ethnic background.
Criticizing these things, as churches have routinely done in the past and present, is bigotry... it's hatred of people for being what they were born to be.

Criticizing stupid ideas is NOT bigotry. You were not born religious, you were not born a Catholic or a Muslim or a Hindu or whatever.

Stop using this cowardly excuse. All ideas are subject to criticism, and the stupid and damaging ones deserve scorn. If you can defend your beliefs rationally then do so. If not, then stop trying to suggest that these beliefs are to be treated as immune to criticism.

All good things are from the superior civilization created by Christiandom.

Including the Inquisition, the coverup of pedophile priests, and kosher hot dogs.

Don't forget Miracle Spring Water, the race to Armageddon, and Creationism.

By RamblinDude (not verified) on 18 Aug 2008 #permalink

Oh, and of course, omniscient crackers

By RamblinDude (not verified) on 18 Aug 2008 #permalink

"All good things are from the superior civilization created by Christiandom."

Miscegenation laws? "Defense of Marriage" acts?

Maybe you could explain how this is an act of bravery and heroism?

By James the Less (not verified) on 18 Aug 2008 #permalink

Hmmm the trolls only seem to read cracker-related threads, they don't have anything to say in others, like ones where people kill their kids for religion.

I think maybe some people have Google alerts set to "cracker."

In case anyone wants to formally show support for those standing up against the cat'lick thought police.

Embassy of Ecuador in Washington
2535 15th Street, N.W.
Washington, DC 20009
Tel: (202) 234-7200
Fax: (202) 667-3482
Email: embassy@ecuador.org

SC, I just wanted to say that Emma and Rosa rock....

Maybe you could explain how this is an act of bravery and heroism?

It's telling the godbotherers that their prejudices, irrational ideas, and stupidies are just that, irrational, stupid prejudices. The godbotherers can do all they want inside their little communities, but they do not have the right to force others to obey their irrational, stupid prejudices.

Oh yes, and a cracker is just a frackin' cracker.

Funny - I didn't even notice it had said "anti-family language" until PZ pointed it out. I saw the words and everything, but until PZ made a point of clarifying what it meant, I'd read it as meaning family planning stuff. >.<

Testament to the ubiquitousness of conservatives, I guess, that even their strongest linguistic manipulations are starting to be decoded as what they really are, without even having to put thought into it..

#43 - Robert Byers - 'All good things are from the superior civilization created by christendom.'

Robert Byers, well now there's a blast from the past. Is that you "Marijuana Bill"? The high school teacher famous for dropping his pen near girls desks? Sure sounds like the same old shit you used to spout in class. Go take your meds.

If you're not him, then just - fuck off troll.

There is that last sentence in their article where they say that a new constitution will lead to the "promotion of homosexuality" which is religious right speak for "we won't be able to suppress homosexuality any more."

If you look at the religious right websites, they often use this "promotion of homosexuality" to decry ANY mention of homosexuality.

Maybe you could explain how this is an act of bravery and heroism?

Well, it's certainly iconoclastic. Is iconoclasm brave and heroic?

I suppose it depends on the icons, and the iconoclasts.

In the 1240's, right around the time that the Jews of Berlitz were accused of desecrating the host and all were burned alive for it, the pope at that time ( Gregory IX ) decided that the Talmud needed to be destroyed. He ordered that copies of the books be confiscated from Jews and burned.

King Louis IX of France complied with this order, in addition to confiscating the assets belonging to Jewish moneylenders so as to fund his crusade. Louis was later canonized; more than one city was named after him.

Were Gregory IX and Saint Louis IX brave and heroic for stealing from and destroying the books of the Jews?

By Owlmirror (not verified) on 18 Aug 2008 #permalink

"Attorney Brad Dacus of the Pacific Justice Institute, a conservative group that filed arguments supporting the doctors, called today's ruling 'the epitome of intolerance and said it forces the defendants 'to choose between being doctors in the state of California or being able to practice their faith.'"

So basically he's saying "It's intolerant to not let us be intolerant!"

By OctoberMermaid (not verified) on 18 Aug 2008 #permalink

Yes,OctoberMermaid, that's *exactly* what they're saying.

Sickening, really. I just wish it was surprising.

Tony Sidaway @ 31,

Now I know what they mean by The Real Presence.

Are you sure about that Tony?

http://www.slate.com/id/2197166/?GT1=28001

Most Sunday mornings at Buckhead Church in downtown Atlanta, one person is conspicuously absent: the senior pastor, Andy Stanley. A nationally known evangelist, Stanley is usually 20 minutes away at North Point Community Church, the suburban megachurch he has led for 13 years. To the 6,000 or so faithful at Buckhead, he appears only on video, his digital image projected in front of the congregation in life-sized 3-D. The preacher is a hologram.

By Fernando Magyar (not verified) on 18 Aug 2008 #permalink

I wonder if there might be a sense in which deliberate despoilment of the eucharist falls outside of lawful free speech/free expression, in the same sense that calling "fire" in a theater when there is no fire is I believe illegal. In both cases, one is not directly causing harm to a person, but is deliberately provoking violence in others. Could this fall under the definition "hate speech" if one knows full well how important a Catholic considers the eucharist and yet despoils it anyway? Should we allow individuals to perform actions that don't directly harm anyone, but are deliberately crafted to incite violent reactions in others?

Alternatively, how is it different from say, stealing a national flag from a private institution and destroying it, or blowing up a war monument (assuming no one is hurt), or stealing a war veteran's medal of honor and melting it down, or stealing & burning the original copy of the Declaration of Independence? Is the monetary cost of the non-cracker items the *only* thing that makes their destruction more punishment-worthy? Or does the symbolism/meaning imbued in them by people worth anything in the consideration?

To be clear, none of the above relates to my opinion on the matter, I am actually trying to come up with better answers to some people I've been arguing with. I would very much appreciate if anyone has a good answer to either or ideally both of the two charges.

#51 - James the Less - 'Maybe you could explain how this is an act of bravery and heroism?'
I can.
It is an act of defiance against a religion that has slaughtered, raped, burned, hung, imprisioned and tortured since the Council of Nicea gave them the power of Gawd over everyone else. You know who James, women, children, gays, slaves, native people, the poor. A faith that had the power to order it's men to kill anyone that didn't kiss their asses.
How about this James the Troll, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination." Leviticus 18:22, and the bible warns that if you do the lord will "visit the iniquity" upon such persons so that the "land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants." Leviticus 18:25. How about Leviticus 20:13 - which calls for the death penalty?
Now I wonder James if the christians are so against abortion why does the bible approve of it? "Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children" Isaiah 13:18.
I won't go on, unless you'd care for more James. Perhaps you're new here. Best not ask questions you really don't want answers to. Pharyngula Ilk have some highly decorated bible quoters, including me, with a 50 year pin.

Sorry to interrupt the feel-good PZ-'n'-Cracker reunion, but a post by Benjamin Collard on Greg Laden's blog indicates that there's been more - and much more serious - violence at the scene of the original Crackergate in Orlando:

... a member of CFA was in attendance during one of the public impeachment hearings. This person was taking notes, and was subsequently interviewed by the school paper. This person was listed as Webster's legal advisor (which he was not) in the next issue of the school paper (this person asked the paper many times to issue a correction). The 'legal advisor' was followed (at night) until he was by himself. When he was by himself, he was physically attacked (punched and kicked many times). The attacker mentioned something to the effect of 'you need to stop helping webster cook.' Fortunately, the 'legal advisor' fought back and defeated (sorry I could not come up with a better word) his attacker.

The good news is that a UCF panel has cleared Collard and Webster Cook of all misconduct charges (their impeachments from the student senate are apparently still pending).

By Pierce R. Butler (not verified) on 18 Aug 2008 #permalink

Jlewis @ # 65 - One major difference between the examples you mention and the "desecration" of the cracker is that communion wafers are freely given out to countless recipients and are (monetary value aside) treated by all concerned as disposable items.

By Pierce R. Butler (not verified) on 18 Aug 2008 #permalink

#56

Your post makes absolutely no sense. There is no compulsion.

I get it - it's just a cracker. How noble to take arms against a cracker. A model of virtue. The essence of bravery and heroism.

By James the Less (not verified) on 18 Aug 2008 #permalink

@70 James the Less

It's brave because the religious douchebags are crazy and threaten people and their families with beating or death. Anyone who puts themselves in the sites of psychotics is either brave or a little crazy themselves. Maybe both.

By Tom (not the UK one) (not verified) on 18 Aug 2008 #permalink

Byers the amusing psychotic:

All good things are from the superior civilization created by Christiandom. You don't like it then find somewhere more to your liking.

Your knowledge of history is about the same as your knowledge of anything, ZERO. The roots of western civilization date back before christ to the pagan Romans and Greeks.

When the church had power, it was called,....The Dark Ages.

The enlightenment coincided with the reduction in secular power of the religion. The sects could no longer raise armies, hunt and kill witches, hunt and kill heretics, go on crusades, or genocide rival sects.

You could make a stronger case for christianity causing the detour from the fall of Rome and Greece to the Rennaissance.

Why don't you find a theocratic hellhole to your liking. There haven't been any Xian ones since Calvin screwed up Geneva but with a few modifications of your religion and a spiffy new turban, you would fit in well in Aghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, or the Sudan.

The Usual Trolls:

Maybe you could explain how this is an act of bravery and heroism?

Maybe you could explain how death threats and trying to get PZ Myers fired from anonymous trolls is an act of bravery and heroism? For extra credit, maybe you could explain why xian's response to just about everything involves death threats with the occasional assault and sporadic murders? And what do these illegal crimes have to do with the religion?

On second thought, considering the posters, having them explain anything coherently is unrealistic.

#73

Given the first line of the post, it's a fair question. You haven't answered it.

By James the Less (not verified) on 18 Aug 2008 #permalink

@74 James the Less
>Given the first line of the post, it's a fair question. You haven't answered it.

But I have, jackass. Care to explain anything from #73, or are you just here to show off your own douchebaggery?

By Tom (not the UK one) (not verified) on 18 Aug 2008 #permalink

Maybe you could explain how this is an act of bravery and heroism?
Your post makes absolutely no sense. There is no compulsion.

It's refusing to be intimidated. There is a compulsion when someone feels that their opinion justifies physically compelling another to do anything, as Ducker did to Cook. When their attempts failed they escalated their offensive using legal and other means. PZ's actions are in the same league as those who publish the Mohammed cartoons; brave because we know they desire to kill us, and heroic, in that it shows 'exhibiting or marked by courage and daring' unlike the majority who allow themselves to be intimidated into silence.

what a sad bunch....

Ahh, James the Less skips over my post at #67. What a fine christian man he is. Bless you, son of god.
No doubt you are respecting me as the property of my father, brothers, and husband.
Shouldn't you, in all correctness, damn PZ for allowing me to post?
"Let the woman learn in silence with all SUBJECTION. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." 1 Timothy 2:11-12
So here we are again, women are worth less than men, Leviticus 27:3-7.
James the Less you are a coward and a fucktard. God bless you.

Gawd damn I wish I had picked the handle LILLITH instead of my actual name. *dang*

Good to have you back PZ!
It's beddy bye for me.

Fuck you James the Less.
Good night sweethearts!

Actually, I think Ecuador *is* pretty much describable as a theocratic hellhole. Doctors stood by instead of intervening to save the life of a pregnant woman who was dying in the hospital, because if they did anything at all that could be considered to cause the death of the fetus, they would be in big trouble. The widower frantically tried to get her help but to no avail. Now he's suing the government for making the hospital stand idle.
Other doctors regularly check women's uterii for signs of scarring; there's a mandatory check for women of childbearing years if they haven't had a child recently. If anything suspicious is found, I guess she's taken in for questioning as an abortion suspect.
And this is just the stuff I know of off the top of my head. I've not paid a lot of attention to Central and South America. But even so, I know it's a place where the church has too much power for human rights. When church and government are NOT separated, then it is a reasonable political act to vandalize a church as part of revolutionary activity.
Hey, didn't some Americans, back in Boston, do some vandalism to a shipment of tea? And that was only about taxes.

By Samantha Vimes (not verified) on 18 Aug 2008 #permalink

Tsk, tsk, tsk, PeeZed.

Haven't you, yourself, reminded us that we need to translate these things? It's supposed to read "anti-patriarchy language". They just typoed.

Good morning Ilk!

What? The troll didn't come back for round two?
*sigh* Thats a shame... saddled up my high horse for nothing.

#78

A woman was the first witness to the Resurrection. A woman is the Queen of Heaven and Mother of God. Saint Catherine of Siena, Saint Teresa of Avila and Saint Therese of Lisieux, all women, are Doctors of the Church.

By James the Less (not verified) on 19 Aug 2008 #permalink

In a way, I have done more to desecrate crackers than PZ ever did. You see, my parents make me go to Catholic church even though I don't want to, since it is one of the most boring thing one could ever do. I have also done the communion stuff even though I am an atheist (the others don't know). Every week I go, and eat the cracker even though I am not a Christian. I refuse to go, but others urge me on, so in a way, it is their fault. Anyways, they deserve it for being so boring. :)

How could y'all miss the most interesting link on that page?? I'm referring, of course, to "Westminster Exorcist Says Promiscuity can Lead to Demonic Possession."

I knew I was going to hell; I didn't know I'd be possessed first. Or maybe I'm possessed already!

The article also warns us against "yoga for relaxation."

James the Less @83,

OK, finally the penny drops. You're not a catholic troll after all, you're a deadpan anticatholic comedian trying to make the RC church look ridiculous. Can't believe it took me this long to twig -- must be slowing down in me old age.

Well, stop it. Even if one does not agree with its teachings, Romanism is an important religious tradition that deserves respect.

James the Less, La iglesia católica has been responsible for a lot of horrors suffered in Latin America. They were active participants in the massacres and rape of the indigenous peoples. They are intertwined with the government in a lot of Latin American countries, including Ecuador. Recently, they moved political muscle and urged people against the establishment of a Constitution because of this"

La igualdad ante la ley. Todas las personas serán consideradas iguales y gozarán de los mismos derechos, libertades y oportunidades, sin discriminación en razón de nacimiento, edad, sexo, etnia, color, origen social, idioma; religión, filiación política, posición económica, orientación sexual; estado de salud, discapacidad, o diferencia de cualquier otra índole.

"Equality before the law. Every person will be considered equal and will enjoy the same rights, liberties, and opportunities, without discrimination for reasons of origin,age, sex,ethnicity, color, social origin, language, religion; political affiliation, economical position, sexual orientation; health, disability, or any other difference. "

Here's the proposed constitution: http://www.ecuanex.net.ec/constitucion/titulo03.html

Here's the Catholic opposition: http://www.cre.com.ec/Desktop.aspx?Id=135&e=115927

How can you argue that these people are not heroic? They're fighting for human rights against the church!

The indigenous people of my country lasted less than a 100 years after they arrived. Owned as slave by the Spanish and the priests, they died in no time. How is that not fucking genocide?
Your church. It has a lot to answer to.

What the Ecuadorian cracker-stompers did would have been OTT in the USA, UK, or any other country where the Catholic Church has not dominated society for centuries. In Ecuador, where it has done so with appalling consequences for women, the poor, non-whites, gays, etc., and where the people have apparently decided enough is enough, it is indeed heroic.

By Nick Gotts (not verified) on 19 Aug 2008 #permalink

Poor eucharist..

Maybe the fact that my father in-law and his family were assaulted, shot at, bombed, and otherwise harrased by the Catholic chuch and it's members when they converted to Seventh Day Adventism will make it feel better.

By Jay Hovah (not verified) on 20 Aug 2008 #permalink

Sorry, forgot to mention this was in Columbia.

By Jay Hovah (not verified) on 20 Aug 2008 #permalink

Really? Heroic?

a group of people entered a chapel in Guayaquil, grabbed the Eucharistic host that was exposed for adoration, tore it apart, spat on it, and stepped on it

Really? If, say, the President of Harvard said something I didn't like about women, would it be OK to start going into random people's classrooms during lecture, breaking their chalk, and stomping it into the floor? Women have been oppressed for hundreds of thousands of years; would that make it ok? Of course not. No-one even cares about chalk; it's still not OK.

And this?

Guayaquil's Archbishop, who leads the nation's Episcopal Conference, has also received numerous death threats for his defense of the right to life in recent weeks, as has pro-life leader Amparo Medina, who recently received a dead rat inside of a shoebox with a note attached that read "DEATH TO PRO-LIFERS"

You may note, raven and Tom, that now the death threats are being made against the Christians, and you justify this behavior by pointing to death threats made by other Christians. I also note that some of you have been awful quick to throw the T-word around and awful slow to respond to Owlmirror's well-researched & cleverly ambiguous post at 61.

I thought PZ's stand in solidarity with Webster Cook was at least mildly heroic. But these people are just thugs, and the fact that you share their ideology does not excuse their behavior.

Vivek, really? What the fucking hell do you know about life in Ecuador and the influence that the catholic church has there? As I stated above, the church is not just saying things people don't like, so your comparison is beyond ridiculous and inappropriate.
The puta iglesia in Ecuador opposes the establishment of basic civil rights on the new Constitution. Their fucking priests are murderers, interrogators, and kidnappers that helped the last dictatorship commit crimes against humanity.
Take a look at priest Christian Federico Von Wernich. He is involved in the murder of seven people, and in the kidnapping of more than 30 (including those murdered). On top of that:

Von Wernich visitaba los centros clandestinos de detención para obtener información de los prisioneros, a los que simulaba brindar apoyo espiritual y prometía la libertad.

Von Wernich visited the clandestine centers of detention to obtain information of the prisoners, to whom he simulated bringing spiritual support and he promised them liberty

@James
So the Catholic Church has holy women and from that you infer that the church doesn't think too bad of women?

That's ridiculous. These women became holy because they behaved in the stupid and oppressed way the church told them to be, instead that in religious-speak stupid and self-humiliating behaviour is called "devout" or "pious".

If the church values women equally than men, why can't they get priestesses? I know, due to some bogus Aristotelesian argument about women being the receiving, not the giving part in nature.

Once you look around and learn about all ancient cultures you realise what a random synkretism your religion is. The holy guys where only invented to make it easier for pagan cultures give up their spirits.

As for the pillars of civilisation: Modern law builds on Roman law, and enlightenment has not been encouraged but fought by religious leaders. Then note the (surprising?) coincidence that racist people with great certainty are also religious people.

Re: brigit@94

And maybe it would be just for the new regime to bring Von Wernich to justice. But how do his crimes justify actions taken against the bishop?

Vivek, as I've stated time and again, the bishop is moving political muscle to oppose the guarantee of civil rights to all people in the upcoming Constitution! Jeez Luise, I thought that was fricken clear enough.
Are the oppressed minorities there supposed to stay calm and take it, when the church actively harms and discriminates against them? When they were abused by the church that supported the previous regime?
Get out of your bubble, Ecuador is not the US.

Political muscle must be answered politically. Rally, march, protest, vote. The peasants in late 18th century France were oppressed too. They answered with violence. You know what happened.

#28: How do you treat an irony overdose?

My wife and I went to Ellis Island and the Statue of Liberty a few days ago - they mention that a variety of people were deported through Ellis Island, but not her. Having written the poem for the Statue of Liberty and then being deported by it makes this pharmaceutical-grade irony.

I guess you can't be a saint if you aren't sacrificed first.