Now one Islamic cleric has declared that Mickey Mouse must die. He's unclean, after all.
"Mickey Mouse has become an awesome character, even though according to Islamic law, Mickey Mouse should be killed in all cases."
Mr Munajid seems to be a little confused about what is real and what is fiction, but at least this is a step up from declaring that people should die.
And then there is this:
Last month Mr Munajid condemned the Beijing Olympics as the "bikini Olympics", claiming that nothing made Satan happier than seeing females athletes dressed in skimpy outfits.
Looks like another bit of evidence that I am Satan, then.
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Sheikh Muhammad Munajid claimed the mouse is "one of Satan's soldiers" and makes everything it touches impure.
But he warned that depictions of the creature in cartoons such as Tom and Jerry, and Disney's Mickey Mouse, had taught children that it was in fact loveable.
The cleric, a former diplomat…
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And we are happy to be your minnions master!
The real power of Satan is that he's so damned easy to relate to!
Satan loves rock and roll too I hear.
don't forget that suicide bombers are going to blow up Paul McCartney when he plays Israel next.
http://www.exclaim.ca/articles/generalarticlesynopsfullart.aspx?csid1=1…
I mean, Paul is old and all, and has lost a bit from his younger days, but to threaten to blow him up if he performs?
He's not that bad, really!
I don't think mice have "satan receptors" built into their system. Not very useful on the survival scale of things to evolve. Stupid radars, that's another thing.
Die Mouse!
So what's Muhammad Munajid's opinion of Porky Pig?
Dangermouse could so kick Muhammed's ass. Figures he'd pick on Mickey.
So what's Muhammad Munajid's opinion of Porky Pig?
Obviouthly, he'th dithpicable!
Mr. Munajid seems to be on remarkably intimate terms with His Satanic Majesty, if they've been chatting about their sexual preferences. What beer does Satan drink, Mr. Munajid? Does he have a PC or a Mac? Enquiring minds want to know!
See related Jesus and Mo cartoon from a few weeks back:
http://www.jesusandmo.net/2008/08/20/satan/
Do they even still make or show Mickey Mouse cartoons? This guy is stuck in 1950?
PZ, where do you hide your horns?
We, demon hunters, need to know this :)
Oh yeah? I bet you wouldn't dare say that about Musli...
Huh.
Well, you mother wears army boots!
Like to see him pick on Bugs Bunny.
Of course...chomp, chomp...you realize, this means war."
In other news, Catholics voting for Obama may be denied their crackers: http://tinyurl.com/6ew9vl .
I mean, Paul is old and all, and has lost a bit from his younger days, but to threaten to blow him up if he performs?
I dunno, I still haven't forgiven him for "Who's That Knockin' at the Door" -- one of the worst earworms I've ever experienced.
An old female acquaintance of a friend of mine had the lovely experience of going onto public transportation in Saudi Arabia in modest Western dress and having a bunch of men on the bus openly masturbate at her.
I don't think a religion-based mandate for completely covering the female form is really helping men cope and grow up.
Sod Mr. Munajid and his pronouncement from a presumption of moral superiority. Such attitudes are not, I would venture, psychologically healthy.
"Even creatures that are repulsive by nature, by logic, and according to Islamic law have become wonderful and are loved by children. Even mice."
Oh, but he's using logic! I wonder if it went like this:
-All mice are repulsive
-Mickey is a mouse
-Therefore, Mickey Mouse is repulsive
People need a religious reason to do this?
To all Catholics who may read this blog,
See.. PZ does stick it up the Muslims too.
Now would you kindly shut the fuck up and go away.
Love
PZ Henchperson # 666
Last night in the Islamic Olympics, female swimmers wearing burkas made valiant efforts to stay afloat. Sadly there were no survivors.
I dare Sheikh Muhammad Munajid to kill Mickey Mouse, throw his no-longer-animated corpse in the garbage, and post photos of it on the internet. Let him learn that the devout followers of the Magic Kingdom will not tolerate such blasphemy!
This evidence really seems to turn Pascal's Wager on its head. Bikini-clad women, rock 'n' roll, AND Mickey Mouse are all associated with Satan.
Why are we supposed to want to go to Heaven again? So we can sit in church for eternity doing an infinite amount of "Hail Mary"/salaat whatever the case may be?
Mickey Mouse must die.
Wow, a religious zealot that I actually agree with. I guess we all can come together singing kumbaya in peace and harmony!
Mind you, I don't think anything could simultaneously be funnier and sadder than watching women in burkhas trying to play beach volleyball...
Volleyball, sport of sa-tan SA-tan SATAN
Get ready to spike your soul to eternal hell, if only allah could have created people in a way that didn't offend him.
Ahhhhh, yes....Misty May Treanor and Kerri Walsh - women's beach vollyball. My faaaaaavorite part of the olympics...mmmmmm-hmmmmmmmmmmmm
*snaps out of daydream*
HUH?! WHA?! Yeah, off with their heads!
If deriving pleasure from seeing Misty May in a bikini is evil, then by God Lucifer, I'm a Satanist.
so female atheletes should compete nude: no skimpy outfits to please Satan. right? right?!?
*ducks thrown boot*
Yet another cool band name...
Well, that's odd. I wonder what the guy's position is on Hamas using a bastardized Mickey Mouse to brainwash kids?
video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZEGsnWZKh8
Now, I'm afraid I only speak English, limited Spanish, and the few choice Chinese swear words I gleaned from firefly, so I can't say for certain that the captions match what's being said.
Seems there's corroborating evidence, though: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18580878/
(Also, PZ, it appears we have a problem. If enjoying the sight of "female athletes dressed in skimpy outfits" is a qualifier for being Satan, we both seem to fit the bill. Oh well, I'm sure there's enough room in the Ninth Circle for both of us! )
He'd be in the deep shit if he depicted Mickey Mouse w/o Disney's blessing. They're worse than the Muslims about that kind of thing.
Munajid is to Islam what Jerry Falwell and the other clowns on the Radical Religion Right are to Christianity.
Instead of working to resolve the poverty that is ENDEMIC in Muslim countries, instead of working to make the world a better place, this guy wastes his time talking about mice.
Way to go, Munajid. Your da'wa is lacking. Those "sheikhs" who chose to concentrate on meaningless issues do a great disservice to their fellow Muslims.
also, is anyone else remembering "Enemy, Mine" right now?
Alien: "Your Mickey Mouse eats ****!"
Human: [tries not to laugh]
Shane: Why are we supposed to want to go to Heaven again? So we can sit in church for eternity doing an infinite amount of "Hail Mary"/salaat whatever the case may be?
Ever read Twain's "Letters from Earth," where Lucifer writes letters describing 19th century America in order to prove to the arch-angels that God is an incompetent buffoon? It has a great bit about American ideas on the after life, and how those ideas are in perfect opposition to everything we enjoyed doing in life.
So good, he couldn't publish it until he had died!
"Didn't I tell you not to read this anymore? 'Mickey Mouse' is a FASCIST!"
(Anyone who can tell me what that's from is my new best friend.)
Anyway, I don't see what this guy's worried about. Mickey Mouse is dead; he was taken out by some rogue Israeli members of the International Jewish Conspiracy, as you can see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wiBwQ9fiho
Like to see him pick on Bugs Bunny.
isn't that why W decided to invade Iraq?
Nobody screws with Disney and gets away with it.
(I'm sure the following has been said above, but what the heck)
No, I'm Satan, and nothing makes Satan happier than seeing female athletes dressed in nothing!!!
HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!
So...just how happy was Satan, sheikh? Seems to me we have a testable...measurable...claim here.
Sad thing is, I doubt he saw that connotation at all.
Sure, but that was clear from the "Islamic cleric" description anyway.
I think its Munajid who likes to look at female athletes in skimpy outfits. B
Besides, how the hell does he know that satan doesnt prefer to look at those tight bodied wrestlers having a little rough and tumble together.
Ramblindude, Icthyic:
In the immortal words of the great, GREAT Bugs Bunny upon being provoked:
"Of course you realize THIS means war."
Mickey Mouse must die
Just wait until PETA hears about this!
If heaven is full of fundie xians and muslims, who in the hell would want to go there?
"Do they even still make or show Mickey Mouse cartoons? This guy is stuck in 1950?"
Hamas airs a kid show in Gaza that features a Mickey-mouse like character. Course, the Hamas version of Mickey isn't quite the same as ours.
I don't think this guy understands how powerful cartoon characters are.
I've seen Daffy Duck blasted in the face with a shotgun, at point-blank range. Only hurt his pride.
Wile E. Coyote? That guy has been smashed more times with an anvil than I can remember. I believe he is currently retired, but still alive.
Don't even get me started on Eastern cartoons! Ever hear of a guy named Goku?! Indestructible, I tell ya!
It's official - the world has gone bugfuckbananas.
Muslims aren't the only ones with uncontrollable lust -- or outrageous arrogance.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/09122008/news/regionalnews/hasid_lust_cause…
Looks like another bit of evidence that I am Satan, then.
This is gonna spark an "I am Spartacus" trend on this thread.
"Even creatures that are repulsive by nature, by logic, and according to Islamic law have become wonderful and are loved by children.
Even their fundamentalist Muslim parents!
Hmmm, that's the only reason I watched women's Olympic Volleyball!
Ummm.....
He does realize he is calling for the death of a cartoon doesn't he?
I mean, it is a drawing.
He wants a drawing to die.
Is it because he is a cleric that no one tells him how not even wrong he is?
Let's face it Satan is a cool guy, and a lot of fun. Moreover, I don't want to go to heaven anyway. None of my friends will be there.
Well I did like that the olympics had girls in skimpy outfits. Made me forget about the immense persecution the Chinese government has done on it's people over the years. Also they had handball; I love that sport.
Wow. This is the religious version of an IRC argument about whether Superman could beat up Darth Vader, only more wankily irrelevant.
And here I thought Satan INVENTED the Olympics.
So is there going to be a major sponsored-by-some-Islamic-government contest on how to build a better Mickey Mouse trap? And Mickey's a 'toon. The only known way to destroy a 'toon was invented by another 'toon (in Who Framed Roger Rabbit?) and Disney's got that copyrighted, too.
If he succeeds, who's going to take care of Pluto?
Nah, you're just a tool of your instincts, that's all. That's nothing to be proud of.
Don't know about Satan. Makes me happy, tho.
This is entirely consistent with Tom & Jerry being a nefarious Jewish plot, you know.
52:"Ummm.....
He does realize he is calling for the death of a cartoon doesn't he?
I mean, it is a drawing.
He wants a drawing to die.
Is it because he is a cleric that no one tells him how not even wrong he is?"
Actually, I think he is a cleric BECAUSE he can't tell what is real and what is imaginary. It's part of the job description.
I enjoy seeing women in bikinis as much as the next guy, but I can think of an awful lot of things that make me happier than that. Seeing women out of bikinis, for example.
-jcr
I thought "Satan" was his name for his...little friend.
While I wholeheartedly agree with those sentiments, nudity and sport are nonoverlapping magisteria. Sport has the competition, nudity has the happy horny feel-good chemical reaction in my brain. Never the twain shall meet
BTW, I wonder what the learned theocrat would have to say about this mouse:
http://the-american-israeli-patriot.blogspot.com/2007/05/jihad-mouse-is…
If Mickey Mouse is bad, is the Hamas plagiarism of the character bad, too?
-jcr
How the hell can you expect a woman to swim with a burkha on? They would all be slowed down to Eric "the eel" levels.
O RLY?
Hmm, would this suggest that Mr. Munajid would be look favorably upon "The Simpsons" if there was a role reversal in the "Itchy and Scratchy" segments?
Although I must say the religious injunction pertaining to mice actually is among the more rational of its kind, considering the environment in which said injunction was probably invented for.
"claiming that nothing made Satan happier than seeing females athletes dressed in skimpy outfits."
He's an aesthete, what can you say? And I'm sure he likes the men, too. He's an easy-going guy, you can tell because the religions invented him as their big enemy.
"Nah, you're just a tool of your instincts, that's all. That's nothing to be proud of."
Oh seriously, get over yourself.
However, I must agree that the whole beach volleyball thing is sort of a cheap thing to put in the Olympics. You got only two people one each side of a court that's about the same size as an indoor court, and the substrate is sand, so you can't move through it very well. I didn't watch much of it, but I found it slow and undynamic compared to regular volleyball. Is it really just about the bikinis then? Is there men's beach volleyball at the Olympics, too?
#61: Not so surprisingly, really. It probably takes only a small amount of added neuronal apoptosis to go from demanding the deaths of the authors, publishers and readers of a cartoon, to seeking the demise of the cartoon itself.
No, Adam Savage is Satan.
See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-XbjFn3aqE
Going with the "They realize Mickey Mouse is a cartoon, right?" line of inquiry, I learned from my years spent in that pit that imagery is, to many Middle Easterners, just as real as real life (which might go a long way to explain why a cartoon of Mohammed has their knickers in a bind).
Sometimes, though, they really do have problems separating fiction from fact. I recall listening to Baghdad Betty during Desert Shield and how she was trying to demoralize the US military by saying our wives were sleeping with Hollywood stars like Clint Eastwood and (here's the kicker) Bart Simpson.
Even though we were in Riyadh, I'm sure they could hear our howls of laughter in Baghdad...
Sir Craig: Sometimes, though, they really do have problems separating fiction from fact. I recall listening to Baghdad Betty during Desert Shield and how she was trying to demoralize the US military by saying our wives were sleeping with Hollywood stars like Clint Eastwood and (here's the kicker) Bart Simpson.
Isn't more likely that those radio transmission were counter-prop? Sure, they might have been that stupid, but if I were in psy-ops for our side, that's exactly what I would broadcast.
It also sounds like a tale from WWII - and I know we were playing games like that at the time.
Do the publishers of these insane fatwas ever actually think about the consequences of their nonsensical announcements? I mean, do they really want to reduce their whole religion to one of total worldwide ridicule? We are LAUGHING at you. You are a JOKE. Anyone who buys into this insanity cannot be feared, only pointed at and made fun of. Is that what you really want?
Now you tell us you want to kill a cartoon mouse? And yet you want us all to respect your beliefs? Okay, Sheikh Muhammad Munajid and all his followers - go ahead and draw a picture of Mickey Mouse on the side of your tent, then blow it up with a bazooka if it'll make you happier, but don't expect anything other than hoots of laughter and derision from the rest of the world. Your credulity is now in complete tatters.
If you read it, it's all rather tragic, really.
This fellow is just delivering a sensible hygiene message, but he dresses it up in ridiculous religious language and comes across as completely unhinged.
It is this that will kill Islam through secularization. It is for this reason that the Islamists fight secular nations and secular people. Like Rushdie, we dare to laugh. And when you hear the sound of secular laughter, there is one less Muslim in the world. Soon the secular former Muslims may outnumber the faithful in every nation in the West. That's why they attack us.
And because it has to be done...
Why are you attacking the Muslims PZ? If they were Catholics, you won't go after them. If only we Muslims had Catholic guilt.
Well, I did hear somewhere (damn that David Bowie for this particular ear worm!) that it's on America's tortured brow that Mickey Mouse has grown up a cow.
Oh, and burkinis, people, burkinis!
I gotta say, I really liked the concept of Beijing using cheerleaders at most events. That was quite enjoyable.
Um, why are you all looking at me like that?
frog @ 73:
It is very possible that it was counter-psyops; all I know is it worked. We were growing bored and missing our families, so it is possible that CENTCOM directed something like this to give us a momentary break.
I did a quick Google on Baghdad Betty and one of the hits it returned was for Snopes, calling the whole Bart Simpson story a "hoax." Normally I have a great deal of respect for Snopes, but on this one they got it wrong. Whether it was an actual broadcast from Baghdad or something cooked up by CENTCOM, I know what I heard because we had it recorded (now lost, dammit).
Suuure... (just kidding, I'll take your word for it.)
Catholic hater! You wouldn't dare say that to a Musli...oh...err...Hindu...
....[crickets]...
So, I'm confused. If a Muslim goes to Disneyland, does he stone the guy in the costume? Does he strip the guy of the costume and burn the costume?
This is very confusing.
I thought they were only upset by depictions of their prophet.
Does that mean Mohammed looked like Mickey Mouse?
This is a completely unfair cherry-picked example of the most extreme of the most extreme. The average Muslim isn't remotely this backward.
(Yeah right)
Hmmm. I thought I remembered seeing Satan patting Misty May-Treanor's backside.
News just in - rumours have been circulating of a "second surge" being sent to Iraq, consisting of Mickey, Minnie and Mighty Mouse, Dangermouse, Pixie and Dixie, Jerry, Scratchy, Speedy Gonzales, Stuart Little and Topo Gigio. Said a spokesman for the hastily assembled unit, "We're ready to do our bit for peace and democracy, and cheese."
Yes, there was men's beach volleyball at the Olympics. The men wore a lot of cloth. Really makes one wonder who makes the rules on the uniforms. (That was rhetorical.)
Comics are produced by the books, monthly. Mostly in Italy and France, however, so in the USA you probably never see them.
I should take a cleric's opinion as part of an argument that you're Satan? Compared to the fact that I'm fairly sure you exist, and very sure that Satan doesn't?
Well, okay. As long as you don't show up in skimpy outfits...
the mouseketeers!
From the yet to be composed rock opera: Mickey Mouse Rodentstar
Islamic council: 'Oh Munajid, clerics do welcome you, Caliphs and Ayatollahs here for you.'
Munajid: 'Good Muslims, know why I called you here, we've too much time, must make a problem rear.'
Mickey Mouse club:
'Hail-Mickey Rodentstar'
'Hail-Mickey Rodentstar'
'Hail-Mickey Rodentstar'
Caliph: 'Mickey mouse cartoon fans, millions at least; with ink animation shows we can't compete.'
Islamic council: 'Mickey is dangerous.'
Mickey Mouse club:
'M-i-c'
'K-e-y'
Islamic council: 'Mickey is dangerous.'
Mickey Mouse club: 'We'll get Steamboat Willie diskettes by and by.'
Ayatollah 1: 'Mickey's worldwide, he does have great support.'
Ayatollah 2: 'fan clubs, amusement parks, things we'll cut short.'
Islamic council: 'Mickey is dangerous.'
Mickey Mouse club: 'Mickey Mouse, Rodentstar!'
Islamic council: 'Mickey is dangerous.'
Ayatollah 2: 'There on both hemispheres.'
Ayatollah 3: 'The Mouse club mob, and we have much to fear.'
Munajid: 'Must needs a final solution to our new problem.'
Calliph: 'How do we deal with the Mickey mouse fan club, one mouse, one hero of all the cartoons.'
Ayatollah 3: 'Suicide bombers will not get them all.'
Munajid: 'Consider carefully, or they'll think we loons.'
Calliph: 'We cannot ignore their Mousketeer legions. Militant children we do not control.'
Ayatollahs: 'How do we finish this, his fame increases, Mickey Mouse fandom exceeds our own roll.'
Munajid: 'Dis-ney Worlds are arisin, money and fairy tales, no one would ban. Con-glom-erate corporation, world domination because of one mouse, world domination because of one mouse.'
Islamic council: 'the cause, the cause, because of one mouse.'
Munajid: 'World domination because of one mouse.'
Islamic council: 'our cause, our cause, because of one, 'cause of one, cause of one mouse.'
Ayatollah 3: 'How do we deal with this Mickey Mouse phenom?'
Caliph: 'How do we behead the amusement king?'
Ayatollahs: 'How will we handle the Mouse who is great, more than Bugs, Daffy, Porky or that Martian thing.'
Munajid: 'Infidels, you cannot conceive, Tinker Bells' towers, are a great high.' We must smash them discreetly, so like Disney his maker, Mickey must die. For the sake of all Islam, Mickey must die.'
Islamic council: Must die, must die, Mickey must die.'
Munajid: 'So like Disney his maker, Mickey must die.'
Islamic council: Must die, must die, Mickey must, Mickey must, Mickey must die!
this guy should be a bit more careful.
when Disney do fatwahs, they always get their man.
What I wanted to ask all the time... so they didn't censor the Olympics in Saudi Arabia??? Or does the good man get some illegal satellite channel (which would not really surprise me)?
Man, have you misundreshtmated Donald Duck!
Re: MikeM
I gotta say, I really liked the concept of Beijing using cheerleaders at most events. That was quite enjoyable.
This'll cure you of that cheerleader fetish:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt_YcQlYxyY
LOL, #34, that scene from Enemy Mine is exactly what crossed my mind when first I heard about this! Let us all now go sing our lineage before the elders. ;)
Oh, come on. Go watch the tape and see if it isn't pretty evident that the guy (assuming MEMRI's translation is accurate; accuracy is not usually one of the complaints about that organization) is using "Mickey" as a stand-in for "mice" -- same as lots of utterly sane English-speakers would say "you ate BAMBI?" to stand in for "you ate venison?"
Utterly unremarkable symbolic speech, unless an agenda-driven "research" organization feeds it to a right-wing British paper, which feeds it to Fox, etc. All due respect, PZ, but this strikes me as a pretty transparent bit of race-baiting propaganda.
fev: Utterly unremarkable symbolic speech
Utterly unremarkable?
"Mickey Mouse has become an awesome character, even though according to Islamic law, Mickey Mouse should be killed in all cases."
"According to Islamic law, the mouse is a repulsive, corrupting creature. How do you think children view mice today - after Tom and Jerry?"
You think it's unremarkable that, since Islamic tradition says "the mouse" is repulsive, that it's even sane to view cartoon mice as an evil to be stomped out? You don't see that as a remarkably totalitarian world view, and we shouldn't poke fun at it?
I find that remarkable!
#95 Good point, Fev. Well said.
Well after I heard about muslims complaining about being offended by a china pig in a shop window, I stopped giving them the benefit of the doubt. And of course they've already protested noisily about cartoons, so what are we supposed to think?
PZ, you're not Satan. You are ballsy, bub.
As a Floridian I can get behind a fatwah against the Disney Empire. But I simply cannot condone a blanket attack against all mice. Real mice are wonderful creatures. It's only the cartoon one and the devouring company he represents that I can't abide.
Posted by: David @ 15
"In other news, Catholics voting for Obama may be denied their crackers: http://tinyurl.com/6ew9vl."
Even if they confessed and said their hail marys?
Free country, Frog. You can make fun of anything you like, and I never suggested anything to the contrary.
I do suggest -- and this is kinda basic in the study of propaganda -- that you look at the original artifact and ask why you're being told the things you're being told about it (if your Arabic is good enough to challenge the translation itself, go ahead). This guy with a beard says that religious law calls for you to throw out a pot of food if a mouse falls into it. (From a practical health practice perspective, it doesn't really matter which planet the idea came from; it's a good idea.) And he thinks kids are inclined to see mice as friendly because they see mice in cartoons. And that probably screws up the little darlings' thinking: They like Mickey, even though the (rational, scientific) response is to step on Mickey and throw him in the garbage.
If you saw some guy in a lab coat -- our host, for example -- make the argument that way, it would look entirely unremarkable. But there are Folks Out There whose interests are served when you hate and fear funny-looking people with beards, so they present evidence selectively and hope you won't process it rationally.
Make sense yet?
fev: Go watch the tape and see if it isn't pretty evident that the guy (assuming MEMRI's translation is accurate; accuracy is not usually one of the complaints about that organization) is using "Mickey" as a stand-in for "mice"
Interesting theory, but he also made a reference to Tom & Jerry. His point seems to be that cute cartoon mice are not a good thing because they make children see the critters differently than what Islamic tradition teaches. From this cleric's viewpoint, apparently, if something's not compatible with sharia, it's not a good thing. Pretty narrow worldview, all in all.
Oh, and for the record, fev: yes, from a health point of view, separating the mice from the food is an outstanding idea! But in the 21st century, when even people in the desert can get satellite TV, isn't it more confusing to tell kids it's because mice are "impure" and "soldiers of Satan" than to teach them about microbes and not doing at home what they see on TV?
If you are concerned about disease, that would be a very dangerous and inefficient way to control mice. The rational way is to teach your kids about germs, secure your foodstuffs, keep mousetraps or a cat, and realize that you can still watch mouse cartoons and even keep pet mice.
Wait, the rational, scientific response is to step on the mouse?
Man. I can't even get that rational or scientific with spiders. Catch-and-release ftw.
OK, kiddies, early childhood education is not my field. Somebody who does theory-of-mind stuff might want to step in and talk about when it makes more sense to talk to children about germs or Satan or Mickey. I'd suggest we nominate somebody who's lived or spent a little time in the developing world.
May I point out something that seems to be going unnoticed here? Divide the world into two camps (yeah, yeah): people who think a war with -- let's call it Funnybeardistan -- would be a good idea, and people who think launching a war of presidential choice with Funnybeardistan would be (at best) a sublimely stupid waste of resources with no moral or practical justification whatsoever. Have you noticed that the parties responsible for bringing you the Mickey message all seem to be on the same side of that gap? Which might not be the side that many of you -- us -- would like to find ourselves on?
Man, this guy would be a freaking laugh riot at any modern nightclub. Bikinis are trenchcoats compared to what some girls where when they're partying.
So I get that mice are out. But how does this guy feel about weasels?
To be fair, MEMRI is a propaganda organ for the Israelis and American neo-cons. It's rabidly anti-Arab and anti-Moslem. See the MEMRI entry on wiki and read the Criticism section.
Try not to cite Wikipedia in your final project, but it's all right to use it as a starting point. For bonus points: Which side of the spectrum are Fox News (which brought the Mickey story to US audiences) and the Torygraph on?
"According to a translation prepared by the Middle East Media Research Institute, an American press monitoring service, he said: 'The mouse is one of Satan's soldiers and is steered by him.'"
A Disney spokesman responded by saying, "No, that's not true. We got rid of Michael Eisner."
Reverend BigDumbChimp said:
No.
I don't what the problem here. Right now I'm imagining Mickey eating a last meal, smoking a cigarette, and being strapped to a gurney. I can't wait to hear his squeaky last words. That's what he deserves for what he did to Dopey and Sneezey.
Wonder what they use for mammal based research and trials in their labs. Maybe rats are more holy.
What Sheikh Muhammad Munajid said is particularly ironic in light of the fact that last year a children's programme on the Palestinian Hamas television station featured a costumed character that highly resembled Mickey Mouse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickey_Mouse#Farfour
In the movie Jesus Camp, the kids there declare that Harry Potter should be killed.
Is there a reason I should be forced to share the planet with these folks?
RevChimp: Satan loves rock and roll too I hear.
Piffle. Christian propaganda. Satan is *so* a Country & Western fan.
#93:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIL4s5W36pI
(Happyslip's Olympics Tribute)
funny, I seem to recall another place and another religion actually worshiping rats and bringing them milk to drink and food to eat...
saw it on one of those animal planet shows, I'm sure of it.
or was it nat geo?
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/06/0628_040628_tvrats.html
ooh, video of Mickey's cousins in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJFvPbd1X40
no wonder the Muslims and Hindus fight so much in India...
It's all about rodents!
Ichthyic @ # 119
Rats..milk..mmmm, reminds me of a Simpson's episode
http://www.thesimpsons.com/episode_guide/1009.htm
heh.
those little suckers are sure hard to milk by hand, I'll tell ya what.
"Last month Mr Munajid condemned the Beijing Olympics as the "bikini Olympics", claiming that nothing made Satan happier than seeing females athletes dressed in skimpy outfits."
How about female athletes wearing nothing at all?
How the hell do you kill a cartoon? Perhaps he'll watch Roger Rabbit first.
Looks like another bit of evidence that I am Satan, then.
You wear a bikini?
# 36,
a black member of the Jewish Conspiracy...
The EUs cordon sanitaire around the mediterranean will be even more efficient if Arab kids are indoctrinated to fear and hate black Africans.
"Satan is *so* a Country & Western fan."
Well, if we're going on the notion that Satan is the father of all evil, then I guess that would stand to reason.
And just how does Mr. Munajid know that the female athletes in Bejing wore skimpy outfits? I suppose he could only watch for three or four hours before turning off the television in disgust.
He clearly hasn't seen me in my gym kit, the description "over-stuffed sausage" comes to mind.
I wonder if I could offer my services. In sixth grade, I drew a series of cartoons depicting the grisly execution of none other than Mickey Mouse. The image of his blood-spurting head flying off after the guillotine dropped was some of the best work I ever did.
If these schlubs are concerned with the death of a cartoon character, maybe they'd be satisfied with a cartoon death.
Muhammad hates meeses to pieces?!
What about Donald Duck? At least Mickey wears pants!
PZ, look, I am as prone to laughter at silly religious positions as the next guy.
But Fev is right. There's something amiss about this thing, even looking at the link. MEMRI has a long, long reputation as a less-than-reliable source -- just ask the journalists who actually work in the region (I know a few). MEMRI gets a decidedly mixed review.
Now, here you have a guy who they say is a former diplomat (maybe, and what that means isn't clear) from a paper that has a long history of race-baiting (the Telegraph) showing a video that has a guy saying stuff that's really, really silly. And it just happens that the guy is someone we are predisposed to not take seriously or fear, depending on the context.
Something stinks in Denmark. My editors would have me asking a few more people about this, and I would want to show the video to someone who knows Arabic.
PZ, you had the same problem with a story some time back about hand-washing, as I remember, and the biggest issue was that the guy the same paper -- the Telegraph -- quoted claimed to be from an organization representing Muslims in the UK, and he turned out to be a nobody with a computer who fooled the reporter into quoting him. It happens, I'm a reporter and I've been scammed a couple of times. It's embarrassing, and your colleagues laugh at you for a while.
But dammit, you talk all the time about applying standards of evidence, and I wish to hell you would do that with stories like this. You needn't be a research expert, but a minimum of checking would help. There is nobody at the University you work at who knows Arabic? Nobody in the Middle East studies department you can get on the phone with?
I like your stuff PZ, but didn't fall into the same traps that some creationists do, I beg of you.
None of this is to say Munajid is rational or wonderful or whatever. I am into an apologist for radical Islam, and anyone reading the above ought to be able to figure that out. (Not hating all Muslims or thinking religious people are idiots doesn't make me an apologist for them).
C'mon PZ, you wouldn't reproduce a piece form WorldNutDaily or Fox News without a little checking -- you've done it before.
I'm happy to point and laugh along with you if the video says what MEMRI says it does.
Oooooh! - I killed a mouse with a hammer the other day (stupid, fat cat), does that make me a muslim?
fev: This guy with a beard says that religious law calls for you to throw out a pot of food if a mouse falls into it. (From a practical health practice perspective, it doesn't really matter which planet the idea came from; it's a good idea.) And he thinks kids are inclined to see mice as friendly because they see mice in cartoons. And that probably screws up the little darlings' thinking: They like Mickey, even though the (rational, scientific) response is to step on Mickey and throw him in the garbage.
If you saw some guy in a lab coat -- our host, for example -- make the argument that way, it would look entirely unremarkable.
No, it would be completely remarkable! If PZ were to argue that we could have no "mouse art" because it might make children less hygenic, I would say he was off his damn rocker - that he had gone totalitarian.
Let's put it another way: PZ clearly despise religion, but I've never seen him call for the elimination of religious art, because it may "infect" the kiddies with bad ideas.
No, fev, your apologetics are verging on a defense of authoritarian thought - that the "people" are so stupid that we need to brainwash them - that everything most be composed so as to properly form them.
If your argument were simply that the entire thing is a hoax, that the translation is so irretrievably bad that the gist was wrong, then you would have a point. It's possible; obviously neither you nor I are conversant in Arabic to that level.
I have children, but I've never found the need to keep them away from Charlotte's Web because otherwise they might play with Black Widows, or to tell them fantastic tales of evil dogs to keep them safe from feral dogs. It's fairly easy to tell children the truth of the matter - it's a hell of a lot more useful for them to get a simplified but correct theory than some fantasm which will lead them astray.
Desperate, fev. Real desperate. There is sane multiculturalism, and there is this disrespectful and outright racist attitude that judges other with lower standards (not just different, but clearly lower) because they are ignorant third-worlders (or poor, or children).
fev: Have you noticed that the parties responsible for bringing you the Mickey message all seem to be on the same side of that gap? Which might not be the side that many of you -- us -- would like to find ourselves on?
Ah, I see. It's about picking sides. The same kind of thinking you see from the Israel-never-does-anything-wrong folks. Hrmmm....
Whatever side you're on, I'm not on it; and I'm not on your opponents "side" either. A pox on both your houses.
You chickenshit bastard!! You wouldn't DARE print anything critical of Catholics! They know how to treat an infidel like you!
I'm still waiting for the day when they're all so offended they are speechless.
Well I guess the swimmers could've dressed like this but it might have a slight drag effect on the speed of the athletes. Better luck to them next time.
Saudi Arabians - troglodytes without caves?
I'm missing your point amid the foam and spittle there, Frog. What is it I'm supposed to be desperate about?
fev: Which might not be the side that many of you -- us -- would like to find ourselves on?
What are you desperate about? The details I give a crap about - the reduction of communication to a simple propaganda campaign (which side? oh, which side?) - is just another authoritarian move. You're pretty transparent at this point - don't pretend to be ignorant.
And it's frog, dammit. Not Frog, but frog. Spell my arbitrary moniker correctly! I'm green, I'm squat, and I'm uncapitalized.
fev, do you know Arabic? If so, why not post a fair translation of Munajid's speech here?
From the NYPost article at #49
"Hasids are forbidden from looking at members of the opposite sex who aren't fully dressed," said local activist Isaac Abraham.
That just made the incident involving my Hasidic ex-landlord breaking into my apartment and my freaked out ex-girlfriend rushing out of the shower buck naked to confront him a whole lot funnier!!!
Do they have to do some kind of cleansing/penance if they see a naked woman? I hope it was unpleasant. He was a real asshole.
It's MEMRI. Not precisely the paragon of reliability or lack of bias or fact - for that matter.
@#132 - Jesse: Exactly.
Look, I live in Saudi Arabia and nutjob pronouncements and fatwas are published in the Arab News daily. Once it was No pokemon, because he we a jewish plant!? then it was no Barbie dolls because they were jewish too. These things are enoumously popular here. They were temporarily removed from the shelves and then about a month later returned, as well as Bratz dolls which look like hookers(go figure). My daughter watches The arab Disney Channel on satellite TV, which by the way is everywhere here,but officialy is forbidden. We watch uncencored R rated movies, Sex and the City, the Sopranos etc. But there are no movie theaters because that would encourage sin. What a country!
Quote miners' paradise: PZ Myers says, "I am Satan"!
shonny: nice to see racism isn't dead. Congrats.
frog: you are missing, I think, a salient point -- this video reminds me a little bit of the "god damn America" clip they used to show of Rev. Wright. If you only heard the last sentence, it sounds like he hates America, but if you listen to the whole thing, it isn't anywhere near so radical.
In this case, we have a guy speaking a language few English-speakers know (Arabic) 'translated' by a group that has made a business of pulling out the most radical parts of Arab media, and supposedly showing them to the West ("Bridging the language gap.") It's a little bit like representing American or European culture by taking videos in sex clubs juxtaposed with the most radical religious wingnuts and saying "That's what Americans are like."
A similar incident happened a while back with the president of Iran. Ahmadinejad says all kinds of things. Once he supposedly said "We will wipe Israel from the face of the map." Only that wasn't really it, and a number of people (JUan Cole for one) who actually spoke Farsi noted that that particular metaphor would be a bit weird, since it only is used widely in English and some other European languages. The truth was a little different -- he was making some allusion to the "pages of history" or some such thing. Another very important point that was missed was that Ahmadinejad has absolutely no control over anything the Iranian military does. Unlike the US, the President of Iran isn't the commander in chief and has no foreign policy authority whatsoever. (The Premier is the guy you want, that's Ali Khamenei, who is much more of a moderate. In evaluating Ahmadinejad's comments, these are important things to know, don't you think?
The Telegraph story gives me no idea how important Munajid is. Is he some whacko with a video camera, or is he really a player in Saudi politics? They said he used to be a diplomat, but the guy working in the front office of the embassy stamping visas has a diplomatic passport too, and I wouldn't say he has much important to say about US policy in whatever country. These are important contextual cues.
You know, we accuse religious zealots here of ignoring facts and evidence all the time, and make fun of them for it. Can we not end up doing the same thing? That's why I implored PZ to send the link to someone in the ME Studies department to have an expert look at it who knows something about this guy, maybe, and can provide a wee bit of independent verification. Stories that play too easily into our prejudices are always suspect. And we do have them, even if they aren't conscious all the time.
You know, not every Saudi is a religious fanatic. Nor is every Sunni imam. Maybe Munajid is considered a nut in Saudi Arabia -- none of us are in a position to know without at least getting an idea what he said and what that means in Saudi culture, which may or may not be directly related to Islam. (After all, we have Christmas trees here and don't eat dog or horse meat, habits which have little to do with Christianity per se. But the former is often latched onto by Christians as a very important expression of their faith around the holidays).
Look, maybe he really is saying things that are this crazy. Fine. But I try to be careful with stuff like this. If it was a guy from a weird Pentecostal sect that's one thing; I know AMerican culture ('cuz I'm an American) and know English, and can contextualize that stuff better. I do not speak Arabic (nor do you, I warrant) and I am not anywhere near as familiar with Saudi culture (nor are you, I bet).
SleepyinSaudi brings up an important point: whatever weird fatwas are issued daily there, most people seem to ignore them, or at least try to get around them.
Jesse: frog: you are missing, I think, a salient point -- this video reminds me a little bit of the "god damn America" clip they used to show of Rev. Wright. If you only heard the last sentence, it sounds like he hates America, but if you listen to the whole thing, it isn't anywhere near so radical.
In this case, we have a guy speaking a language few English-speakers know (Arabic) 'translated' by a group that has made a business of pulling out the most radical parts of Arab media, and supposedly showing them to the West ("Bridging the language gap.") It's a little bit like representing American or European culture by taking videos in sex clubs juxtaposed with the most radical religious wingnuts and saying "That's what Americans are like."
Except we do know what the Saudi state is like, and that in actual fact this sort of authoritarianism is state policy. Look, most of us realize that he didn't actually mean that Mickey needed to be beheaded in the public square. What he probably meant, if the translation is at all accurate, is that these sorts of cartoons are subversive to Islam. The comments about "beheading Mickey" by the posters are jokes!
Is there any controversy on that point? The issue is that the dominant school of Islam in the SA - the state supported Wahhabi brand of Salafi - is exactly this repressive. It does, in actual fact, express a doctrine of totalitarian state religion. Whether MEMRI misquoted Mr. Munajid or not, that is uncontroversial.
So what are the issues: 1) Whether Munajid was so atrociously misquoted that the sense of the quote is incorrect - that he believes in a state so authoritarian that even fairy tales for children must be "Islam approved". That's a factual claim that no one appears capable of answering. 2) Whether you give a pass to third-worlders for obscenely repressive ideologies, because otherwise you're a supporter of Fox, MEMRI and Likud. Now, that's simply racist and authoritarian. In short, bullshit.
But no one was implying that "every Saudi is a fanatic". They were implying that the theocratic Saudi state is fanatic. Is that controversial? It doesn't take a deep knowledge of Saudi history to recognize that - and the fact that those players are actually the ones in an alliance with Fox and Likud, an alliance of convenience today.
> The Premier is the guy you want, that's Ali Khamenei, who
> is much more of a moderate.
Khamenei is the supreme leader, not the premier, or prime minister. The office and title of prime minister of Iran was abolished in 1989.
Jesse, if you had just googled the guy you'd have found that he has essentially the same mouse rant on his website:
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/2896/mouse
"Now that we know Islam calls mice and rats fuwaysiqah (evil) and allows us to kill them even in Makkah, and that they are a means which the Shaytaan tried to use to burn down the house of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and we know that they are one of the main reasons of damaging food and spreading the plague, we find it very strange that the foolish people in the west seek to make their children like mice and rats by propagating the character of Mickey Mouse in games, comics and funfairs. Go figure!!"
Windy: the best part of that website it the argumentative pattern. Why X? Because A said that B said that C said "X".
Wow. The game of telephone as truth!
And did any of them think to actually test whether mice do drag wicks at night? An experiment maybe?
Here's a better one:
The Hanafis agreed with them that everything that reaches the stomach invalidates the fast, but they stipulated that it should remain in the stomach.
Does having a gastroscopy invalidate the fast?...
The Hanafis agreed with them that everything that reaches the stomach invalidates the fast, but they stipulated that it should remain in the stomach.
Based on that, gastroscopy does not invalidate the fast, because it does not remain in the stomach, rather it is removed once the procedure is completed.
Either we have a very poor English translation, or someone doesn't understand the alimentary process!
So it looks like I was right: the sheikh watched the Olympics on illegal satellite TV.
I'm surprised that fev hasn't yet explained to us that putting out candles for the night is a good idea, and therefore it's "unremarkable" to promote fire safety by teaching that mice are pyromaniacal agents of Satan.