Here's an interesting idea: since some countries have restrictive laws on abortion (rather like the ones McCain apparently would like to institute, where even the health of the mother becomes a non-excuse), a Dutch non-profit is sending a ship to provide reproductive health services to such countries, anchoring in international waters to get around local policies. It's a brilliant idea — a way to directly help women deprived of rational family planning opportunities by the wackaloons of their government.
Just one problem: how are they going to help South Dakota?
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wow, maybe they could do stem cell research on the same ship and kill two birds with one stone.
I see a new law stating it'll be illegal to leave the country to procure an abortion. They'll then get police on boats to monitor and stop boats that are going to/from the Women on Waves ship.
Two words: Underground Railroad.
There'll be a spike in the number of ocean cruises booked.
Free Bus fare to Canada.
Neat idea. It also has a good effect of bringing international attention to bear on certain countries.
To be fair to Spain, the socialists legalized abortion in the mid-1980s in the first post-Franco democratic government led by Felipe Gonzalez, and a couple of months ago the current socialist government, led by Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, announced that they're studying how to reform abortion law to bring it in line with the likes of the UK.
The equality minister announced the appointment of an expert panel and says she expects to introduce a bill to the Spanish parliament by July, 2009.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2008158293_apspainabo…
I live in Valencia, Spain and I can tell you that this boat from Women on Waves is just symbolic and not many women are going to use it. According to the actual law any woman can have an abortion if the pregnancy represents a threat to the physical or mental health of the woman in question. The mental health bit serves as a justification for the abortion and that's what the socialist government wants to change with the new law. That way nobody must declare that is "in great mental stress" derived from the pregnancy. I'm sure it's going to be approved soon.
Fuck south dakota.
Their weak.
Doesn't that say it all.
They own weak? How much?
Lots of sea round Ireland. They can come here any time. It would mean women wanting abortions would only have to sail half as far as they do currently (there is a steady trade in the UK in Irish abortions). They'd have to be discreet though or they'd get caught for 'advertising' abortion services.
Re. Cthulhu at #2 They tried that in Ireland too in 1992 when a 14 year old rape victim left the country to get an abortion in the UK. She was hauled back under threat of prosecution. Mercifully that was one step too far even for the Holy Catholic Electorate and we passed a 'right to travel' amendment to get round that nasty little wrinkle in our truly shitty constitutional! abortion law.
@Sammywol:
According to the article they were off Ireland before.
@8: Their weak what?
Do you mean their weak understanding of the constitution and human rights, or their weak understanding of human developmental biology?
If they outlaw abortion in the USA, wouldn't make much difference.
1. The uppermiddle class and rich would just fly to Europe for shopping and medical care.
2. The middle class would just go to Canada, Mexico, or the Caribbean for shopping and medical care.
3. The poor, many of whom are minorities would have illegal abortions or do without. They would end up with more unwanted, poorly cared for kids. The USA would pay for it in increased welfare costs or increased police/prison costs as poorly socialized, poor kids commit crimes and get picked up. The trend toward a nonwhite majority in the USA would accelerate, a process that drives the lunatic right bonkers.
Many women will get tired of being treated like walking forced baby making factories with few civil rights again.
At some point, the current backlash against the Theothuglicans should make the present one look like a warmup. Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
Palin, the ignorant, stupid, crooked christofascist appears to be the best candidate the lunatic religious cults could come up with. It is no secret she was chosen by Dobson and Perkins of Focus on Overthrowing the Government. This just might indicate that they are in retreat as hard as that is to imagine.
Likely the government would go after the women if the numbers got significant. It's only when the government willingly turns a blind eye (as is sometimes the case in fundraiser 'casino' ships); but it just as easily can move if it feels like it (if the ships become a serious gambling mecca, or as NY did some years ago when a ship was providing sex services).
Try to envision being on the other side of this issue, the believers in abortion believe they are protecting 'children'. So to visualize their perspective suppose a ship anchored in international waters provided child prostitution, can you imagine the government NOT taking action????
I remember when it went to Ireland.
João is right. Spain with its current government is a strange choice. They should go somewhere in Africa.
Thinking further... they won't even need to go after the women (a socially dicey move). Most women would need to get to the ship via small hired boats. A few seizures of small boats for 'aiding and abetting', and the 'problem' will go away.
It's ships like these that are encouraging people to have more sex! We should pray for more hurricanes!
jayh@#15
I suspect the Zapatero government would be minded to turn a blind eye even if the numbers got big. They don't exactly represent the Catholic, conservative side of Spanish politics. Note that they passed same sex marriage into law. The Vatican responded by beatifying every priest and nun killed by republicans in the civil war (including the vocally pro-Hitler-and-genocide ones) just to stir up the old divisions.
Seriously the Americans are amateurs at "culture war" compared to the Spaniards.
Welcome to the Dutch embassy, Pierre branch.
...like the ones McCain apparently would like to institute, where even the health of the mother becomes a non-excuse...
Don't you mean "health" of the mother?
... which in practice means it won't be finalised before 2010.
Look, she's already hinting that there will be some delays :
"El Ejecutivo enviará al Congreso el borrador en el primer semestre de 2009 y la norma entrará en vigor, según la ministra, "a finales de 2009 o principios de 2010"
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/sociedad/Aido/anuncia/nueva/ley/aborto/f…
the new law will become applicable end 2009 or early 2010
This is what REALLY pisses me off. Why does is take so long to translate, copy and paste the UK or French or German framework (which are all almost identical and they already know and have already decided they will adopt, what needs to be studied by 13 "experts" for god's sake ?).
The Govt knows that it can count on the majority support of parliament, opinion polls show that more than 60% of spaniards approve the notion that the choice of the woman should come first within a specified timeframe, so why does it take so long ?
That's why it's great if this ship can put a bit of pressure and urgency. Otherwise, the legislative process in Spain is always so damn slow, meanwhile, until 2010, there are thousands of REAL women who are going to suffer and some even die because these bureaucrats are so slow at passing a law they have already decided to pass.
More Spanish culture warring
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/16/lorca-grave-spain
Also the national anthem has no words because they can't find sufficiently shared values. The national football team just sort of stand there looking embarrassed when it played before matches (as opposed to other European national sides who stand there half singing and looking embarrassed)
I can see the reports of Catholic pirate ships now
"A vast ye swabs and say 3 hail maries"
We need an international reproductive health services zeppelin to South Dakota. Just don't name it the Harrisburg.
if the twigs that think Afghanistan has harbors are involved, then South Dakota must have an inland waterway.
The strategic sinking of select states could bring international waters to all the surviving states. This is obviously the most practical plan - sinking states is far easier than changing minds. It would also make the United States the home of the worlds largest fjords. Heh? Heh? Just say it to yourself: "The American Fjords". It has a ring to it.
I agree that the law needs to change, and that the situation will be much improved when this goes through. But João's right about the mental-health loophole and how much it's used - in practice, the law is not generally restrictive, although there are some local problems. The new legislation will just formalize the situation and provide better financial support and legal protection to cover all of the regions. I just don't see the sort of scenario in the meantime that you describe. Of course, I'm not there.
"...pray for hurricanes!"
I call a Poe on adzak. That is exactly the kind of thing that the fundagelicals will be doing (after attempting to subvert the will of the electorate.)
While I understand how and why such a ship exists I don't like it. What women need are equivalents to the U.S Planned Parenthood offices, where they can get information on reproductive health, family planning, many medical services, etc. While this ship may help a few women and bring publicity to its cause (which is great!) it is not the solution.
Just one problem: how are they going to help South Dakota?
Zeppelin.
There is no help for South Dakota. I grew up there. However, after moving around a lot I fell for a Kansas girl and live there. Talk about the frying pan and fire.
Their are? Oops, I mean, they are?
Geez, I hope not! Their They're the last line of defense between us and North Dakota!
Quick! Surge!
Spain seems to be on the right track and her current government is refreshingly secular. So there is hope that this ship doesn't have to return to Spain in the future.
and @Julian:
When I studied in the UK the student union had a fund to bring Irish women that needed an abortion into the UK. So there might be some hope for people here in the US ...
Spain? The same Spain that has full equality for homosexuals - right down to adoption? With a socialist government reviled with the RCC?
I'm sorry. Did they mean to say Portugal?
Hi, from South Dakota. There are many, many of us here in SD who oppose the current proposed anti-abortion law, and we did manage to shut down the last one (which also was poorly written). I certainly will be voting against this one, and I remind everyone with whom I discuss the issue that the biggest pushes for this proposed law have come from out of state. Weak? Bite me. The best way to effect change is to *work* for change. I certainly am, with both my money and my mouth. Steve8282, what are you doing to support women's reproductive rights in SD? Anything in your home state? Maybe you could start a zeppelin fund for us, though many of us are working to make sure we don't need one!
I´m a bit confused by this whole thing, I´m living in Barcelona and whilst the law does seem to be anti-abortion the reality is quite different and the law is interpreted in such a way as to give a woman the choice ie "will your mental health be adversely affected by having a child?" "yes" "procedure permitted". Whilst I admit it would be preferable not to have to go through these legal hoops the system still works.
I recall when this ship visited Ireland and the outrage it caused, Ireland is still a country that needs this type of visit as we are still packing some of our expectant mothers off to the UK so our more conservative citizens can rest peacefully at night knowing we are a good god-fearing country. Thankfully the public perception of abortion in Ireland is changing but it is still a subject that needs to be at the fore of the public perception if women are to be permitted a choice.
@ 36
Nonsense! Everyone needs zepplins! To the Peterburg!
"Daughter, daughter don't you dare.
Momma, momma who cares?
It's the BLIMP, the BLIMP!"
--Captain Beefheart
How do they plan to help South Dakota? It's a brilliant plan called "Global Climate Change". Once the sea levels rise and South Dakota becomes the shores of the Arctic Ocean, then the abortion ship will sail into the harbor of Sioux Falls.
No need...they already have such laws in Ireland. She eventually won out in court, but still...
I´m living in Malaga, Spain, and from here we are grateful to the coming of this symbolic ship. Our current law is very permissive in practice, but, in order to prevent some absurd trials promoted recently by fanatical religious groups (they are few people, but with much power) it´s necessary a new law without ambiguities.
Thanks for the support, PZ. By the way, in Spain president Zapatero is called "ZP".
Zepplins are a horrible idea. They can't get high enough to reach international air-space. Rockets are an entirely different matter though. If we outfitted a rocket propelled capsule with a surgical theater, the entire procedure could be performed on decent in the time frame between the rocket's apex and the ceiling of national airspace.
I think this is doable, and way less expensive than sinking states - depending on the number of procedures.
Rockets are an entirely different matter though. If we outfitted a rocket propelled capsule with a surgical theater, the entire procedure could be performed on decent in the time frame between the rocket's apex and the ceiling of national airspace.
that makes me start thinking about a whole new kind of vomit comet.
It needs a catchy brand, like "Mission Aborted", or "A Choice in Space... pace.. ace", or maybe "Take Off, Take Out, Drop In." And a song. Somethin' snappy.
...reaching a whole new low in tastelessness here.
Isn't South Dakota beyond help?
Despite their feeble attempts at forced child bearing, the state is emptying out.
My relatives used to live there. Note the past tense. A lot of the little towns and villages in the middle of the great outback are becoming more or less ghost towns. The average age of residents in many towns is over 60.
Well, the Europeans can continue to travel to South Africa...just like the BushTwins...for a safe and discreet abortion.
If you read the linked article, they have already visited Portugal.
How about an abortion blimp? Or is that a violation of US airspace?
An airship, duh. Even better, a PIRATE air ship. That way, they can avoid the little problems of these laws.
@33...at one point, we were the fourth largest nuclear power on the planet. :-)
I think the solution is that we ought to start digging that Northwest passage now.
If you don't agree with the South Dakota proposition the folks who beat the last one can always use some more help. You can donate to them at South Dakota Campaign for Healthy Families. Every little bit helps, especially in a state as diffusely populated at South Dakota.
Just wait till all the anti-choice people start calling it "Ship of the Dead" "Ghost Ship" "The Devils Sail Boat" "Evil pirates had to use ships too" etc etc
Call Burt Rutan and Richard Branson. I'd love to see the Virgin label on that. It should put that extra little sumptin' special in the Catholics' apoplexy.
While I understand how and why such a ship exists I don't like it. What women need are equivalents to the U.S Planned Parenthood offices, where they can get information on reproductive health, family planning, many medical services, etc. While this ship may help a few women and bring publicity to its cause (which is great!) it is not the solution.
It's great but you don't like it? You're not making much sense. No one has said it's "the solution". Voltaire: The best is the enemy of the good.
How do I book this cruise from the annual meeting of the American Abortion Enthusiast Association of America? I'm sure that all the members would love it.
Abortion is now legally permitted in Portugal, since April 200, as it follows:
Up until 10 weeks pregnancy by the woman's request; there's a 3 day mandatory "reflection period" and she has to be shown/advised/counseled about her other options regarding this matter, the possible effects on her health and has to be offered psychological assistance, either by the public or private health care institution she goes to (mind you that this is in the law, it doesn't necessary works like this on every place).
Up until 16 weeks pregnancy in case of rape or any other sexual offense; there's no need to be an official police complaint.
Up until 24 weeks pregnancy in case of fetus malformations.
And in any case where there's the risk of the woman's or the fetus death.
Since the application of this law, the number of illegal abortions has diminished dramatically has has the number of women suffering from complications deriving from it, namely deaths.
As I understand it, most of the terminations carried out by WoW are at a stage prior to the need for surgery.
IIRC, they mostly give the women a pack of anti-malarial pills to eat. Job done.
WoW are heroes.
CD
Could you do the same thing on reservations?
Cheap cigarettes, fireworks, gambling, and family planning services?
While we're (roughly) on the subject, I'll link again to the great emergency contraception site:
http://ec.princeton.edu/questions/dose.html#dose
Birth control pills are available OTC in Spain.
There is no help for South Dakota
.
To provide privacy so that unborn babies might be brutally killed.
Call a spade a spade, you bloody, cowardly hypocrite
pharynguphile, if you hate our site, why to read and post here?
Unborn babies is an oxymoron, repeated by unthinking people. A baby is something I can hold in my hands and is separated from its mother. Until the separation occurs it is fetus, and trying to state otherwise is a lie. I don't know why religious people are so fond of lying. They sure do enough of it.
"-phile"? Does he mean "-phobe"?
Thanks for the update on Portugal. I vaguely recalled some talk of a referendum, but I didn't realise it had already taken place. Mea culpa.
Just to put Spain into perspective, there was a piece of 'investigative journalism' here in Denmark not that long ago that tried to blow up a storm about 'abortion tourism', because a few women (supposedly) had gone to Spain to get late terminations.
I should have looked into it, since I think it was around the same time our politicos discussed upping the timelimit to eighteen weeks - in the end they didn't.
The situation in Spain sounds much like Germany. There abortions are considered illegal too under the Grundgesetz (I think), but it's still possible to get one after councelling and a period (24h?) of reflection.
The regulations in Europe vary widely. A few examples:
- Several countries have/had similar regulations as the Spanish, with a "mental equilibrium" loophole (e.g until recently Switzerland, with catholic "cantons" denying the mental health possibility, so they had abortion tourism within the country, whose total population is 7 million).
- Women from Portugal used to go to Spain for abortions, before their law was amended (and yes, the Women on Waves ship went to Portugal, too).
- Abortion is legal for the first 2-3 months in Holland (most countries' legislation is moving into this direction). Despite the liberal legislation, Holland has one of the lowest abortion rates!
- Germany legalised abortion in the aftermath of the unification of the eastern communist and the western capitalist part, the "compromise" being free abortion in the first few weeks, but you have to go for "couselling" provided by NGOs and even churches - there was an argument in the catholic church if it was morally right to offer this type of counselling and thereby enabling the women to get an abortion but on the other hand getting a chance to talk a few of them into staying pregnant. Before that, West Germans went to Holland (or had clandestine abortions - mostly by doctors in private clinics).
- The most restrictive times-no loopholes and hardly any possibilities for illegal abortions-were during the worst (most repressive) years of dictatorships, such as Hungary between 1950 and 1955 or Romania in Ceausescu's 1980s.
- The only European country where abortion was outlawed in the last 20 years is Poland. The Council of Europe (which is not the EU) has just forced Poland to not only permit abortions on medical grounds in theory, but to ensure that women are in practice able to get an abortion in such cases. A mother of three sued Poland because she went blind because she was forced to carry her pregnancy to term (she couldn't find a doctor).
- However, we have some kind of backlash in some places due to regulations which allow doctors to deny performing duties based on conscientious reasons. This may sound nice, but what would you say if your doctor refused to give you blood on conscientious reasons, and you had trouble finding one who would?
- In Poland, abortion was legal under the communist regime and became outlawed on the pressure of the catholic church in the 1990s. Poland was notorious for having the highest abortion rate, ironically due to the influence of the catholic church (which was very strong even under the communist regime): women preferred to confess an abortion once in a while to being bugged countinuoulsy by the priest for taking the pill (and no, you couldn't just not go to church and to confession, because your neighbours would bug you).
So now Operation Rescue will have to take a page of instruction from Greenpeace and Sea Shepherd.
im testing....