The world is a somewhat more hopeful place today than it was yesterday, but let's get real.
Obama is a conservative/centrist Democrat who will at best implement a small shift in American policies — he hasn't promised any strong change in Iraq, and his health care plans are an incremental improvement over the existing situation. And the opposition is shrieking "socialist!" at every suggestion, so don't expect an easy road to accomplishing even the centrist plans of President Obama…especially since he's inheriting the wreckage of 8 years of Bush misrule.
He still has to work with a self-interested, triangulating congress made up of many of the same Democrats and Republicans who have collaborated with Bush in screwing over America for the last eight years.
We're still afflicted with the curse of religiosity as a political prerequisite, and Obama has strengthened it. That is a poison that will harm us over the long term; we may have made the more rational choice in this one election, but reinforcing the potency of irrationality will come back to bite us over and over again.
The media isn't helping. The news this morning was all a-babble over a "post-racial America". Nonsense. A significant minority still hates people over the color of their skin, and you know the skinheads are cleaning their rifles right now. This self-congratulatory nonsense distracts us from the real problems that still exist.
We still have the rot of ignorance and hatred in the American electorate. Proposition 8 won. Saxby Chambliss won. Michele Bachmann won. Norm Coleman might yet win.
I'm not dancing in the street yet. I'm anticipating many years of struggle ahead.
- Log in to post comments
More like this
That's very bad news. Is there any possibility of overturning it, appealing against it, acting against it etc etc? (I'm in the UK so I don't really get how the US goes about such things.)
It was truly a mixed bag. I was delighted that Obama won but the homophobes and religious nuts still hold great power in this country. Prop 8 is a perfect example of tyranny of the majority. Two words I was glad to hear in his speech were "gay" and "science" niether of which would have been likely from McCain.
Proposition 8 won. Saxby Chambliss won. Michele Bachmann won. Norm Coleman might yet win.
---Exactly why I'm not smiling this morning.....
All true. But think how much you'd be kvetching if McCain/Palin had won. At least La Palin has to hoof it back to Alaska, where she can see Russia from her house.
Hey, give us at least one day of euphoria!!!!
Well put. It will be a while before the tragedy of commons will be revealed to the Oligarchy for what it really is.
Yes, there are still problems but the election of Senator Obama is still inspiring. Here in Ireland we have just been served with the most crude budget and crass response to the world's financial problems. We have politicians without vision or direction and no hope for anything different in the near future. Symbolism is important and this is just incredible. The grass-roots voting registration movement is a remarkable achievement on its own. In my humble opinion, this is a day that the citizens of the US should be very proud.
@Sef: Unless it's concluded that there was some sort of problem with its election cycle, it's there to stay, for California. The California supreme court can now no longer touch it.
The only way that it will be overturned is with a supreme court decision on the national level, which, apparently, isn't going to happen.
Major buzz-kill.
I don't see how Obama has strengthened the de-facto religious requirement on the presidency; he hasn't challenged the status quo there, but how many walls do you expect him to bring down simultaneously? VP Palin would be significantly worse from that point of view.
The key issue is whether he's going to set an example by paying attention to facts, science, knowledge and reality. There's grounds for optimism there.
Prop 8 wasn't the only homophobic measure that won.
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/ballot.measures/
Arizona
Arkansas
Florida
Yes there is always a dark side to these things but I am at least grateful that we are making some progress with Obama's election.
Yeah but can't we just dance in the streets a little bit? Like, just for a couple of minutes? Because if I have to wait for everything in your list to be put right, I'll never get to dance.
Couldn't one proposition be overturned by another in the next cycle? Or is this a constitutional amendment that is permanant under Ca law?
I'm in Illinois so I don't know.
@Dan: Yes, another constitutional amendment to the CA constitution can overturn it. Seems rather unlikely, but, there it is.
Hmm ... yes ... good luck with that. Americans elected a black president, and that certainly shows astonishing social progress over the history of the country. But if you'll forgive the observations of an outsider, it was also rather clear that open bigotry still holds tremendous sway in American politics. Now it is mostly anti-gay, anti-atheist, and anti-Muslim bigotry -- but you do seem to have anti-black bigotry on the ropes. One step at a time.
Wow.
I'm surprised my state got mentioned here. (Georgia - Chambliss)
I'm 16, and I'm not really that interested in politics, but what significance does Chambliss play in the rest of the country?
*I really need to take a Civics class*
A significant minority still hates people over the color of their skin, and you know the skinheads are cleaning their rifles right now.
I was actually more worried about an assassination attempt than a McCain victory before the election, and it continues to be my biggest fear now. I'd say that I pray that these fears won't come to pass, but, well, you know...
I keep trying to explain to people what socialism really means, with the whole collective ownership thing, and not just a change in tax rates. It's a sadly uphill battle.
religious nuts still hold great power in this country
That's why I, for one, am glad the election is over. We can get back to attacking the real and continuous threat.
Senators vote on laws that affect the entire country.
And yes at 16 you should know this.
I think perhaps the best move in California is to pass a legislative measure to turn state "marriage" licenses into a "civil union" certificate that contains a marriage checkbox that opposite-sex couple can check (making it a marriage license). Then the straight couples get to keep their magic word (at least for now) while gay couples otherwise get exactly the same treatment in terms of process and rights. We already have a strong civil union law in California. We can strengthen it by making it the default form of union in the state. There'll be lawsuits over civil unions by those who said they just wanted to protect marriage (but were lying; they're just homophobes), and the California Supreme Court will get to weigh in on whether Proposition 8 prevents fully marriage-equivalent civil union.
As far as giving opposite-sex couples the word "marriage" for their exclusive use de jure, it will end up not mattering de facto. People will say they "got married" when they enter into civil unions and the right-wing culture will discover they can't hold on to the word anymore than they could reclaim "gay".
My prediction.
Actually according to the NY times this morning, proposition hate is still too close to call. http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Ballot-Measures.html
Let hope it works out
I am dancing,
though not in the streets
I am dancing,
though the tune's bitter sweet
I am dancing
for hope and for change
I am dancing
a bright future's in range
I am dancing
but the dance won't last long
I am dancing
for soon we'll need to be strong
There's a battle ahead
and the fight's up steep hills
There's a battle ahead
and we'll need out steeled wills
there's a battle ahead
for both right and good
there's a battle ahead
against greed and falsehood
But now I'm dancing
for we now might advance
But now I'm dancing
For at least there's a chance
I really fail to see how Obama has strengthened religiosity as a prerequisite. The man the son of an atheist and a lapsed muslim. This is a triumph of freedom of religion and secularism if you ask me.
Cheer up PZ, just because the USA can't become Sweden overnight is no reason to be crabby after a victory of this magnitude!
What's wrong with Minnesota. Overwhelmingly for a black man for president and yet elect out and out racists and homophones in Paulsen, Bachmann and Coleman.
sad that all the bigotry retreated to bashing gays from bashing over race. but, it retreated. the fight goes on. and we are gaining ground in many ways.
.....but i am sad for a lot of people over prop 8 today.
"But if you'll forgive the observations of an outsider, it was also rather clear that open bigotry still holds tremendous sway in American politics. Now it is mostly anti-gay, anti-atheist, and anti-Muslim bigotry -- but you do seem to have anti-black bigotry on the ropes. One step at a time."
one step at a time. never give up, never surrender. as was said at the founding of the country, "we all hang together, or we shall all hang separately."
atheist feminist gay muslims for change. ;-)
@7: California can have a legalise-gay-marriage proposition on the 2010 election, can't they?- that would override this regressive one.
You forgot Ted Stevens. I am heartened by the landslide for Obama, but it seems that there are some pockets of clueless monkeys willing to be governed by convicted felons and bigots. I am most surprised about Bachmann, especially after the GOP threw her under the train. There is some concentrated stupid there!
Still, you always knew not to get your hopes up too high with Obama. Just concentrate on the trainwreck you all jsut avoided. Hopefully Palin and Joe the Plumber will fade back into the woodwork (I think it's a shame that McCain gets to keep his Senate seat; feels like betting on two horses to me). Just think of the US Supreme Court!
Boo on Prop 8. As I understand it, this is the California constitution, which is trumped by the US Constitution. So if someone were to start a test case under federal constitutional or equal rights law... I'm sure the FFRF and ACLU would be happy to give it a go, maybe after the first Obama nomination to the US Supreme Court.
"I'll be your foil, Laertes: in mine ignorance
Your skill shall, like a star i' the darkest night,
Stick fiery off indeed."
I hope to see some improvements in competency, corruption, and constitutionality. It would be hard not to improve over the current situation in any of these areas.
PZ's right. It's great that Obama was successfull, but that's just the start. There is a shitload of problems needing to be addressed (Iraq, Iran, peak oil, global warming, international relations, economic collapse, global depression...) and entrenched interests fighting any attempts to do so.
Thanks for the sympathy and reality check for the celebrants.
Prop 8 passing just breaks my heart every time I hear about the election. I know a lot of people out there who are going to be affected by this, who deserve the recognition of their love and have had it so cruelly ripped away. Friends of mine who celebrated a major milestone in recognition of their rights and their love are now wondering what the hell to do. What a crock of shit.
Now we just have to hope that either the dems throw us bone. At best we can hope for a ENDA passing and maybe DOMA being repealed, probably ulikely since they don't want to commit political suicide. Or hope we get enough a of a break with supreme court appointments that a case for same sex marraige nation wide would go through.
Realistically, even if we had a friendly court, I'm not sure they'd dare take on the case for fear of what the consequences might be. Lest we forget, their power exists so long as everybody does what they say. I can't reasonably say that a pro gay marriage ruling wouldn't tear this country apart at the seams.
Maybe I'll feel like celebrating sometime later. Right now I'm just too tired of watching my rights being shot to peices by bigots (relgious or otherwise) to be all that happy.
The contents of the chants and catcalls by McCain supporters during his concession speech made my blood run cold. I too fear greatly for Obama's safety...
Don't forget the anti-female bigotry which still exists. Black males got the vote before females did.
When did it become legal to be homosexual in the US (they used to get imprisoned or forcibly drugged etc in the UK, eg Oscar Wilde and Alan Turing)? If it's possible to put the historical "legalisations" of being black, female, homosexual, atheist etc in chronological order; then it would be interesting to see if future leadership elections matched that order.
What the fuck are you smokin', PZ?
Stupidest parts of the victory speech:
"And while she's no longer with us, I know my grandmother's watching, along with the family that made me who I am."
"God bless you. And may God bless the United States of America."
How did Bachmann win? Wtf
At least there's something in the glass.
Republicans have been emptying the glass with their misrule and willingness to pander to the most vile impulses in society. One step forward is a step forward.
Well, you know she lived through two world wars despite being born in 1922, so I guess that's possible.
PZ posted:
I've been saying this for a long time.
Doesn't change the fact that I'm happy with the election of Obama, and that I feel like I can channel that good feeling into positive action in areas like the Board of Ed. debacle here in Texas, and toward civil rights for gays, and so forth.
I'll say it again: what I saw in Obama last night at his speech wasn't "Woohooo! I won! I won! Yeah!" It looked more like, "We won a first step toward better things. We have work to do. Get ready."
As I also said last night, that's purely anecdotal - my speculation, and who knows what the man was really feeling/thinking. But I also recognize that that's an attitude I can take, too. "Ok, good, we won some victories, and we have work to do. Get ready."
That actually makes me feel pretty good. Many of us are scientists (or learning how to be). We work on things for a living. Many of us are engineers, and teachers, and lawyers, and spouses and parents and siblings. We work on things.
So let's do this. We won some victories, we have work to do. Get ready.
No kings,
Robert
I think the most important change is having people you can trust back in government, no matter what their political stripe. Obama's main job is to stop people thinking of the government as incompetent traitors. Also, his central position will help with bipartisanship.
On the other hand, I'd much prefer the US to have a proper western leader like all the other English-speaking nations, one who makes government work for all the citizens and protects minority rights. Unfortunately Americans have to realise that's what they need before they can get it. I talked to someone less than 12 hours ago who really, truly believed that if Obama were elected, his sister and her husband, who earned $90000 plus $30000 disability from the husband, would be worse off than they are now, and that the Democrats would put hundreds of families on welfare by castrating the military, never realising that his sister was in a tax bracket that would get benefits and without the Dems there wouldn't have been welfare at all. This whole thing is ingrained in the American people, that only a conservative "God helps those who help themselves" government can properly govern a free people. It'll take a lot of work to winkle it out.
Your analysis of Obama is correct but consider what the country was given as a choice: sheer irrationality and incompetence, exactly what they voted for 4 years ago. and which stole the election 4 years before that.
For this country to choose a reasonable,sane president, and an African-American sane president to boot, is simply mind-boggling. This is a great victory against irrationalism, bigotry, tyranny, and disenlightenment. Tens of thousands of people were weeping in the streets of NYC last night.
Let's not minimize what Obama's achieved simply because we refuse to be pulled along by the hype. There really has been no election, ever, to compare to this one.
Since this is the somber thread, consider this as well.
In the Texas State Board of Education elections, all of the incumbents won by large margins, and that includes the anti-science faction: Terri Leo (79%), David Bradley (54%), Gail Lowe (65%), and Barbara Cargill (85%).
Sean Tevis, of "Running for Office XKCD Style," narrowly lost his race for state representative in Kansas. Pharyngulites, why not show Sean a little love at his blog?
http://seantevis.com/weblog/story/election-results
I'm just glad we don't have to all move to Canada now!
I was kinda scared at the boo-ing and leering during MCain's speech when he mentioned Obama. Notice that when Obama did the same in his speech, everyone cheered. That to me speaks volumes about the divide still present in this country. If I was Obama, I'd be buying Kevlar body armor right now.
On a lighter note... what's big ugly and won't be getting any nookie for a while? Todd Palin!
I'm perfectly happy to put up with 'greatest country in the world' nonsense when politicians are running, but the evidence shows us that we are not. We have betrayed millions of fellow-citizens with our badly-run government and laws that show a profound indifference to their suffering.
I do hope that Obama's inaugural address is a call to use the government to help everyone, not just the rich, a list of problems that we can solve and need to solve and are able to solve if we aren't cowed by the lies of the folks who showed that they are completely disinterested in helping the poor, the sick, the downtrodden, the discriminated against. The high-flown rhetoric about the greatest country in the world is only good if we use it as a goal, not an excuse to rest on our non-existent laurels.
Obama is still much,much better than the alternative scenario that could have happened last night. If that had happened many of us would have been even more devastated.
The last 8 years has been a absolute nightmare and I have been so disgusted and despondent that we have let this country's nobler ideals be hijacked and corrupted by a fanatical and ideological group of deceitful incompetents.
It may sound corny and emotional but I cried tears of joy last night because I saw a glimmer of hope that at least a small majority of voting Americans are perhaps wanting to come together, to work together to try and solve the immense problems we have. It won't be easy but at least(and I am being cautious)we MAY have a President who I hope can inspire us to all to share the responsibility in starting to restore and heal not only this country but also the world.
If we don't find this firm resolve for increased cooperation and hope for a better future, the ecological and social problems are going to overwhelm us.
It feels very good to have hope again.
as bleak as the future may seem, most of us from outside the united states breathe a little lighter.
Dylan:
From an outsider's perpective - I may have some details wrong, but I think this is roughly the way things lie.
Individually, Chambliss doesn't matter any more than any other senator. One important factor is that 60 votes are needed to break a filibuster (via cloture), and the democrats are remarkably close to 60 (if we include Lieberman). As I understand it, this would allow the senate to pass bills much more easily, and with a democratic senate and house it could make change much easier to accomplish.
Maybe an American can confirm this?
If Obama acts as a moderate president with a moderate Congress, that will make me all the more happy. I don't want radicalism on the left anymore then on the right.
Obama won. Democrats now hold every branch or the government. The senate majority virtually filibusterer-proof ("if you want that bridge to nowhere, your gonna help us build a bridge to somewhere"). We gained far more than we lost.
There were some disappointments, but props can be overturned by the courts. PZ don't tell me when the Vikings win you focus on a few fumbles.
Progressive change is Almerica has always been glacial in nature but it has come none the less and this has been a signifigant victory.
Not yet but hopefully we have some openings in the Judicial branch for President Elect Obama (damn that sounds good) to fill.
"I'm not dancing in the street yet. I'm anticipating many years of struggle ahead."
I'm not dancing either, but let people who worked hard to achieve this much dance a little. They're entitled to celebrate.
An election doesn't fix anything. It can only proffer a better or a worse chance to fix anything.
We've just steered the country off of one hideous pot-hole-infested dead-end highway to nowhere onto a well-paved off-ramp leading to a far more promising avenue, one that not only has a direction, but buys us all more time to actually get there. Where's "there"? "There" is simply having enough future to work with.
We'll need plenty more course corrections ahead, especially whenever any jackasses grab the wheel and threaten to detour us onto another joy-ride of madness, but the control of the vehicle is what's been decided, that's consistent with where most of us want and need, and that's enough for now.
moo@15: You are absolutely right. "One step at a time." It ain't finished. It ain't EVER finished. Evolution is funny that way.
Look on the bright side too. It's not such a bad sight, and something good can be said for it.
Looks like Al Franken lost by less than 600 votes. Automatic recount? Might be crucial in view of above-mentioned filibuster-breaking majority of 60.
From Michael Moore:
But today we celebrate this triumph of decency over personal attack, of peace over war, of intelligence over a belief that Adam and Eve rode around on dinosaurs just 6,000 years ago. What will it be like to have a smart president? Science, banished for eight years, will return. Imagine supporting our country's greatest minds as they seek to cure illness, discover new forms of energy, and work to save the planet. I know, pinch me.
"A significant minority still hates people over the color ..."
Case in point: This morning, when I went out to walk my dog, and met others out, we found that someone had (during the night) stuff our paper boxes with flyers that read "Goodbye Rose Garden, hello watermelon patch"
The scum of the earth aren't sitting back and waiting; I hope this crap is the worst they come up with.
Just maybe the States will gain back some of the respect it once had but lost because of the last 8 years of bad management. I live in small European country and all the people I know here are just happy as they can be that Obama won
Alot of states seem schizophrenic, they both elect Obama for president and some bat shit crazy GOP senator and/or some homophobic legislation.
WTF?
What a bunch of d-bags.
So does this mean Sulu is no longer married?
I'm horrified by Bachmann and Prop 8. But does Coleman really belong in the same category? Is it that bad of a world where Coleman can win an election? I can live with that.
In 1960 people were terrified of having a Catholic President but Kennedy turned out to be a great president and he helped make Catholicism more acceptable. I'm hoping that Obama's Presidency will have a similar effect on racism.
How amusing it is to observe PZ's pessimism compared to the optimism of Phil Plait. xD
Anyone think that troglodyte hockey playing boyfriend is going to come through and marry their daughter now that they'll be (mostly) out of the spotlight?
I'm not sure.
Astronomers are always giddy. If you spent all day looking through an oversized kaleidescope you'd be all loopy too.
Might be a little early to fret about Chambliss...looks like it might go to a runoff yet.
Zeno that is what New Zealand did with Civil Unions, they opened them to all. Effectively all civil marriages are Civil Unions and only religious weddings are 'weddings'. They can also be very flexible, an Aunt can enter a Union with a favourite Neice naming her next of kin for eg, they do not have to be for sexual unions.
The clever thing was not making a Gay only measure, as it is here in the UK. Which makes it much harder for future governments to change it since it will affect large numbers of ordinary voters and not simply the bogey people du jour.
Okay, Obama isn't from Krypton, sent by his father, Jor-El, to save the Earth, but at least we have the joys of shedenfreude.
That's actually how American politics work a lot of the time.
Evolution happens in small steps. Be happy for the process PZ.
PZ must have looked at Obama's voting record, because that's the only thing I know of that makes Obama a conservative/centrist compared to other Democrats.
When the priest came onto the stage in Grant Park after Obama had passed 270 electoral votes, and when he began to utter a strange sequence of imaginitive sentences containing more than their share of archaic English words like "dost" and "thou," I was reminded of how far America hasn't come. We'd democratically elected the smarter man, yes, but that we then had to offer a prayer to the Great Green Arkelseizure made me roll my eyes. To my godless eyes it was the most dismally primitive moment of the night - the priest might as well have sacrificed a goat while he was up there.
But some comments above like Fredster's are worth taking to heart: McCain is a good man, better than his campaign made him out to be, but Palin is a truly scary VP pick that should not have been rewarded with a victory. We're all lucky that she isn't now planning for how the Oval Office can best prepare America for the End Times and the coming of the Beast to punish us heathens.
Regarding Proposition 8 ... hate won. But try to imagine a proposition opposing gay marriage in the 80s or 90s. Would the No column have garnered 48%? I'm not even sure I would have voted to allow same-sex marriage in past decades. Far fewer people suffer from homophobia today than did just a few years ago - the tide on that front is moving in a very clear direction, and I think in five to ten years you could see this vote reversed decisively.
PZ, you are right about much of what you say but... tell me about it tomorrow. Today, I wish to savour.
Individually, Chambliss doesn't matter any more than any other senator. One important factor is that 60 votes are needed to break a filibuster (via cloture), and the democrats are remarkably close to 60 (if we include Lieberman). As I understand it, this would allow the senate to pass bills much more easily, and with a democratic senate and house it could make change much easier to accomplish.
Maybe an American can confirm this?
GA voter here. The Chambliss/Martin race was considered more important than most because it was a close race, and because if Martin won the Democrats would gain one more seat toward that filibuster-proof majority. Things don't look great for Martin, but the race has not yet been called. If Chambliss doesn't have a majority at the end, we'll have a runoff.
The Star Trib is reporting Coleman won by a margin of roughly 800 votes out of more than 2 million cast.
Being on campus at the University of MN, The support for Barkley was huge, and many friends I knew that would have voted for Franken decided in ignorance to vote Barkley because they were "tired of the negative politics."
Fools, all 800+ of them, look what they've done!!!
And Bachmann, Prop 8, Stevens? Unbelievable.
Aptly titled post. Way to ruin my morning, guy. You just sound generally unhappy with the way things are going to be. You need to counter this post with some optimism. Either that or you probably shouldn't have voted for Obama.
@50:
That's a large part of my dancing right now. Yes, not everything this election cycle went our way. There's still a lot that needs to be improved. But a McCain victory would have put a stamp on the Supreme Court that would have taken a couple of generations to fix. Dodging that bullet is cause for dancing in the street even for those of us who want to see religion out of politics.
"Obama is a conservative/centrist Democrat"
You have to be kidding. Center/right of who?
Does this mean that you get habeus corpus back?
@ #44,
Yes, absolutely. I'm currently on a postdoc research position in Italy, and I've been thinking that if Obama wins, I'm going to do whatever I can to stay here in Europe rather than go back. Though things here in Italy aren't that rosy either, I don't think I could stomach a McCain presidency, especially for what it would mean for the Supreme Court.
Well, PZ, welcome to America. With a bit of struggle maybe our young people will decide to read a book rather than play games on X-box (or whatever) devoted to stealing cars or being the next biggest armor-plated warmonger. Maybe their parents need to get off their butts, turn OFF the TV, and raise the kids they so joyfully think they are entitled to have without any additional effort except dumping the problem on Jay-zus.
With a bit of struggle, maybe teachers will actually enjoy teaching (like *you* do) rather than gaining tenure so they can fade away from expanding their knowledge and visit that "museum" with exhibits that "prove" dinosaurs walked with mankind not so long ago.
Maybe with a bit of struggle, Atheists will *not* automatically disregard religious people with brains, who choose metaphor over literal. Done correctly, said religious types might just not automatically reject atheists as non-caring, self centered jerks.
Maybe a couple of years under an Obama presidency will help most of the West coast (California and Oregon at minimum) understand the ugly Wart they allowed to grow on their state constitutions, so they can dissolve It (who gives a fuck if gay people want to marry? I have enough problems making my het marriage work to cast judgment on anybody else).
At least Obama can spell "science". Meanwhile, back at the "ranch", Alaska is busy re-electing the crooks that bring them big earmarks.
Maybe we will just revert to form, deciding to hate one another more, rather than move on to Level 1 (Sagan style).
Up to us. All of us.
Agreed. I was really hoping that this election year was the year that people learned what happens when you put religion into government and said 'f#ck this sh!t'. Unfortunately they must have convinced themselves enough that Bush wasn't a real enough Christian for these wackaloons to truly figure it out.
I agree with you. Real change isn't going to happen. The best we can hope for, apparently, is baby steps.
On the other hand, things have been so screwed up in our country for so very long that even a baby step looks pretty good. I'll take a baby step today. We can poke him with sticks to see if he'll go farther tomorrow.
With all the other good reasons that I'm glad Obama won, that is close to the top if not the top.
I think Obama is smart enought to do a lot of incremental changes, with maybe one or two bigger items per year. Reagan did that too, and was very successful at it. I also expect that Obama will keep SCOTUS from being totally reactionary, which is a huge sigh of relief.
Hey, you can't have everything. Be glad the glass isn't completely empty.
Yep. I'm not getting complacent. There's a lot of work to do, and this is just a start.
I'm pretty sure Obama will be an excellent President, though. Yay, us!
Oh come on!
Obama is a very moderate Christian and Christians are the vast majority of Americans. After eight years of Bush, he managed to get only 52% of the popular vote. If the Democrats had presented an openly atheist candidate the Republican candidate would have won by a much wider margin.
The fact that you did not win all the races does not mean that you shouldn't rejoice at having avoided a McCain-Palin victory.
Stillers win Monday night, Obama wins yesterday...I might buy a lottery ticket today!
Nah.
Hey PZ, what do you think you're up to? This blog is supposed to be Obama-worshipping! You'll confuse the poor Rethuglicans and "libertarians".
Actually, I think Obama will turn out to be considerably more radical than you think. Not because you're wrong about his politics - conservative/centrist Democrat is exactly correct - but because the logic of the situation will persuade someone of his obvious intellect that it's necessary. In economics, foreign policy and the looming environmental and resource crises, the situation of the US and the world is grave, and the need for radical measures urgent. Moreover, Obama won chiefly by mobilising people who had never taken part in politics before. If he wants to be re-elected, he needs those people to stay engaged.
Best phrase from his acceptance speech: "gay and straight". Most disappointing omission: climate change. If he brings in Gore as Sec. for the Environment (assuming Gore is willing), we'll know he's serious about that.
There's no danger that the handful of lefties in Congress are going to have any control over the agenda. That's just Republican talking points designed to scare the base. America already has some radical reactionary positions like refusing to offer health care to all and incarcerating a higher proportion of our citizens than any other developed nation. Catching up with the civilized world will not be a radical change, not even for Republicans.
The only truly radical, and necessary, change is to get the poor conservative whites who have been keeping the Republicans in power for the last 28 years to realize that they were used and betrayed by the Republicans all that time and that the only way their lives will get better is if they throw off the shackles of Republican lies which have been abetted by their religious leaders. Leaders who don't care about the poor or downtrodden at all.
Obama did not mention his purported religious faith once in his speech, as far as I can tell - reading betweem the lines, I feel he has appeased religion to get elected but it is not something that motivates him personally, and you hope this will gradually suffuse the culture.
PZ you need one of these. I've had one for a year and I'm drinking coffee out of it right now.
Yes, there is a lot to be worried about. But it takes a long time to turn a huge ship, and at least we just spun the wheel. For the first time in the nation's history, since the very first moment George Washington took office, the elected president is not a rich white person. That's huge. That's worth celebrating, even in the midst of knowing what else needs done.
Re: #75 - Obama is a constitutional law scholar. I can't imagine we won't.
Hey let's not forget also that that silly proposition in Co claiming that life begins with a zygote failed!
I too was happily amazed to hear the phrase "gay and straight" from a president elect!
One step at a time...
One analyst on CNN was saying that if prop 8 passed it would not affect existing marriages, it would only prevent future marriages by same sex couples. I think that is correct since to cancel existing marriages would make it an ex post facto law which is forbidden under the US Constitution.
Wow, that is it. You are off my Google Reader subscription roll. I enjoyed this blog when you wrote more about biology. I've got enough pessimism in my life without this.
I think I'm feeling sick about the Bachmann victory; I truly get nauseated when I think about what she stands for. Part of the reason she won, I think, is that the democratic candidate wasn't stellar. I know at least two people who voted for the independent (who they knew nothing about) because they disliked Bachmann but were not impressed with Tinklenberg. Ugh.
SEF, the closest thing to "legalizing" homosexuality in the US is probably Lawrence v. Texas (2003), which struck down sodomy laws. AFAIK it hasn't ever been strictly illegal to be gay, but it has been illegal to have anal sex, oral sex, and so on. Not anymore.
Which is hilarious because we all know that heterosexual couples never do any of the above.
You'll be missed, I'm sure.
Finally someone who realises that the tone of discussion around Obama is simply prophetic hyperbole.
I also find it quite odd and sad that people in third world countries caught the Obama fever. It's not like the fact of him spewing the words change and hope will actually change the WTO, IMF and World Bank policies that cause a huge part of their poverty and rapid urbanisation. The president doesn't control the economy and the good ol' plague of lobbying is still very much alive and well.
Not to mention that democrats are responsible for the DMCA.
Have fun hoping. Meanwhile, I must admit you at least have what is perceived as a progressive government. We are stuck with Harper.
@ spyderrkl #79
Unless I missed something in the game of life, baby steps are how we learn to run. Evolution didn't happen in a day. It "tinkers".
So everybody should succumb to doom and gloom because the world didn't turn into some sort of utopia in an instant, and unless it does there's no cause for celebration? Please.
I don't think the people who would believe in insta-change are in the majority. Yes, all of the points above suck. But the existence of, for example, a significant minority of racists is still better than a significant majority of racists. Displays of religiosity in rhetoric are infinitely preferable to active support for faith-based initiatives.
Like freelunch said: At least there's something in the glass. Recognising that there are still a lot of problems left to be dealt with shouldn't diminish the steps in the right direction that have been made. The glass is half full, filling it up will take work and it will be difficult. But really, I don't think that most people aren't aware of this.
That said, proposition 8 really is the saddest part of it all, along with the numerous similar bills that passed yesterday.
"And so on"? What orifices are left?
skinheads are cleaning their rifles right now
I fully expect Obama not to live long enough to see the end of his first term.
Nevertheless I sincerely hope I'm wrong.
Bachmann and Coleman are excellent arguments for mandatory runoffs (either a few weeks later or with instant runoff) in elections. A strong majority voted against both, yet it appears that they will both be returned to Washington.
Yes, PZ, we still have work to do- but JEEBUS FRACKIN' CHRIST, the world is a safer, better place now that Obama, a person of intelligence, level-headedness and decency, will become the next President. Have another cup of coffee and smile for cryin' out loud.
Coleman just won. Fuck.
#100, please accept my +1 win point.
Rev., thanks for the link to the mug. As somebody who runs up against Murphy's law on a regular basis, it is a necessary to have the proper view.
Palin/Bachmann 2010!!!1!!
(hmmm... sounds like a type of beer...)
Greenwald's two posts this morning might cheer you up, some.
Unshockingly, people around the office didn't bat an eye when I started walking around the building drinking out of it.
Something about it fitting right in with my personality or some such other nonsense.
The most baffling thing in the Minnesota numbers is that over 360,000 people who voted for Obama did NOT vote for Franken? Where is the logic in that??? Although our retarded Star Tribune recommended just that. Maybe we can blame the Strib...
@ catta #101:
What you said!
If the Wart (prop 8) ends up winning, the real question is by how much?
nunovyurbiznez @ 37:
You have to listen to all of the words. The woman Obama spoke about who lived through two world wars wasn't his grandmother. He was talking about Ann Nixon Cooper, who's 106.
The optomist says "The glass is half full"
The pessimist says "The glass is half empty"
The cynic says "Somebody's been drinking out of my fucking glass"
I agree about is health care plans. All he wants to do is tweak the current system a little. That's not my idea of "change". But I doubt he could have gotten elected if he had proposed anything the slightest bit radical.
Frankly I hope they don't acheive a filibuster breaking majority. That's too much power for one party, and quite frankly there are parts of the Dem agenda that we really need some challenge on.
PZ,
What are you basing this assertion on ?
- his campaign during the general election, when everybody with a brain knows that's the only way he had a chance to get elected in this country ?
- his campaign in the primaries and his political carrier as a community organizer, state senator and US senator ?
You have to get elected or you can't change anything. Obama may well be much more an agent of change than people suspect.
Failing to go along with the plans of someone as popular as he is would be political suicide.
Habeas corpus. But anyway, let's hope so. And maybe a little less torture*, too, pretty please? And maybe go a little easy on that whole warrantless wiretapping stuff? Oh... And whether or not they manage actually to extricate any of their currently engaged forces, with or without the smoking remains of Mesopotamia winding up being bloodily divided between Shia and Sunni, can the new administration also, at least, try not to cherry-pick any intelligence toward cooking up a really hilariously bad pretext for starting another really badly mismanaged war, as well?
I know. I ask so much. But I figured I'd write out my ever so demanding wishlist on this occasion all the same.
*Oh. I'm sorry. Is it still 'enhanced interrogation techniques', at least until inauguration? My Newspeak dictionary is the 2002 edition...
55 million people voted for Sarah Palin.
Way to go, America.
rj5 at #74:
Obama would happily fit into the centre/right of most European political spectra. From what I can see he's not noticably to the left of the Conservative Party here in Britain.
Sven Dimilo @ #102 said
Sven - have you no ears to hear?
Baby steps PZ, baby steps.
but it has been illegal to have anal sex, oral sex, and so on.
"And so on"? What orifices are left?
#102, you'd be surprised. And probably horrified.
You.
Are.
SO.
FUCKING.
PATHETIC.
Mostr liberal presidential candidate EVER. Last one this liberal (according to the ADA): George McGovern. Who got crushed, that's CRUSHED by Richard Nixon, another pathetic Republican president who was overseeing an unpopular war (Vietnam) and a flabby economy. Nixon won that race 61-38. That's a 23 point spread.
Now, an even MORE liberal President Hope/Change gets elected, and Pharyngulfist still is bitching and moaning.
Fucking whiner. Grow up.
Not sure where you're getting your info on Prop 8...both CNN and the NYT are saying it's still too close to call at 10am Eastern, with 95% of precincts reporting.
It would appear that it might still fail. Sad that it would have to be with such a small margin, a win's a win, right? Keeping my fingers crossed on that one.
@58,
I think I understand where you're going there but that presidency didn't end very well, did it? In other news, I've been looting through the WND website as they go crazy. I feel torn. In one breath, it's really funny to see them so terrified and spittle angry. In the other breath(?), they're talking of seceding, creating a separate U.S., and they're not even bothering to covering up threats of violence terribly well. Lots of loading up on weapons. Oh, and the Second Coming. Guys, get ready for that. Apparently, Obama just got the ball rolling or something.
The ADA? Who knew dentists were so political as a group.
#87
To call it catching up is quite right. From an outside perspective and that of an immediate neighbour I am telling you the US looks like a freaking circus.
The level of apeal to emotion in this campaign has been nothing short of nauseating. Obama's faith, family story and dog's birthday are incredibly irrelevant to the issues and hand. Obama is the "obvious" choice and no doubt most thoughtful intelligent people voted for him, yet I really get a feel most people did not in fact vote with their intellect. Melting into tears at rallies, patriotism bloated people bursting at the seams with some irrational pride only brought on by the big lights and nice words some people going as far as likening him to some saviour or redempter of all that has gone wrong in the world, please.
Have fun and enjoy your victory but be weary and don't flinch in your criticism.
Don't blame me. I voted against Chambliss. Aside from being a bad senator, he also happens to be a tremendous asshole.
The local races here in Georgia are always ridiculous.
foxfire #100:
Unless I missed something in the game of life, baby steps are how we learn to run. Evolution didn't happen in a day. It "tinkers".
Agreed. There are, however, a lot of people out there who are expecting not evolutionary change, but revolutionary change. Evolutionary change, IMO, is so damned much better that what we've had that I'll settle - even though what may possibly be needed is revolutionary change.
So people can't vote with their brains and still feel with their "hearts" at the amazing thing that was accomplished?
Aw, fsck. Why didn't it do "cite"?
(cheers) No President Palin! What a beautiful Nov 5th. No need for blowing up parliament today.
What does it matter if the glass is half empty? At this point, I'm thrilled we even have a glass to fill.
Pharynguphile:
pfffft.
Nice tantrum - worthy of a killfile.
Hey. CNN just said Prop 8 is headed for a narrow defeat. What's everyone else hearing?
Um...
#133
Could you remind me what that amazing thing was?
Ben Franklin:
Ah yessss, the joys of aural sex.
Sven @ 102 - if I recall correctly there were some state laws that criminalized "fornication", which I believe covers heterosexual vaginal intercourse if the people aren't married. And I also seem to recall that some state criminalized all same-sex sexual contact, whether or not any penetration was involved.
The glass may be half empty, but it is more refreshing than what could have been in there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinhead . We're not all bad :)
"We're still afflicted with the curse of religiosity as a political prerequisite, and Obama has strengthened it. That is a poison that will harm us over the long term; we may have made the more rational choice in this one election, but reinforcing the potency of irrationality will come back to bite us over and over again."
Well, YEAH, that MAY be true. But I do not think he would have had a chance of getting elected if he ever once hinted he held non-theist views. They would have chewed him up and spit him out. And if Hillary had been on the Dem ticket, same deal.
Why is it that people are so ready to accept that the republicans are good at playing poker but that the democrats invariably tip their hand? Transparancvy and honesty when dealing with the American people is absolutely mandatory, of course, but that should not preclude the exercise of sufficiently shrewd political strategy. For now what counts is that he got elected. That would never have come to pass if he wasn't politically astute. Let's just see what comes of his administration before we jump to conclusions.
I don't think Obama "strengthened" the curse. How the hell could anyone tell? That curse hardly needs strengthening. It's already about as robust as it can possibly be, and has been for a long time.
America is critically ill. It's a patient afflicted with a dreadful and potentially fatal consumption. An awareness on the part of the best available physicians of the potential seriousness of the diseases involved should not encourage these physicians to scare the shit out of the patient by telling them how bad their condition is before they get a chance to deliver the remedy in manageably tolerable increments. No good doctor who knows he or she is good at it would ever jeopardize their patient's trust or add to their anxiety by alarming them unnecessarily. They know full and well the patient is apt to seek another opinion.
Let's focus on the filled part of the glass. That much is there which was not before.
In the future, we'll all help you nail anybody who strays into whackaloon territory, but let's just see what happens first. Let the struggle continue...looking forward to it.
Prop 8 is dissappointing, but the fact that the California constitution can be ammended by a simple majority is brain-dead to start with. And it can be changed back just as easily. Petitions will start today, no doubt, to put the repeal on the next ballot. Time is on the good guys' side on this one. And the mess made by dealing with the marriages already conducted will point out the unfairnes of Prop 8 even more.
The big sigh of relief today is for the Supreme Court. Three liberal justices want to retire and have been hanging on waiting for this election. Nobody knows if they could have waited much longer. Sometimes avoiding defeat is as good as a win.
There's plenty of fights left to win, but remember--dancing is good exercise.
If we now live in a post-racial America no one told the douchebags who painted a confederate flag on our free expression tunnel here at NC State in Raleigh. Even though it's a hateful symbol flown by traitors and bigots, it put a smile on my face to know how we fried the reptilian brains of millions of hateful ignoramuses last night.
Oh and you can certainly be happy about what happened, it's the mania part of Obamania that gets to me, that and patriotism. I'm surprised to see people here defending irrational faith and emotions that affect politics.
Yep
I'd love to get some confirmation on that however.
Oh I don't know, maybe electing the first Black President of the United states.
Vote on issues, but be emotional and proud about that fact.
well, it seems MN is stuck with bachmann for a while, but look at this, the religious wackaloon didn't win for MN supreme court:
TIM TINGELSTAD 818719 39.22%
PAUL H. ANDERSON 1260531 60.39%
The above Prop 8 link is from last night -- the latest news is that the "No" side is trailing, and it looks like the proposition will pass.
Anyone know when it would come into effect?
Gabe @ 146: What mania? Cites, please.
Re: Prop 8, the NY Times has it winning by 4 points, with 95% of precincts reporting. I haven't checked anyone else since my work computer sucks.
PZ -- you may give atheists a bad name.
While it is true that everything did not go our way -- when does it ever? We won the big prize. Who would have thought that America could elect a black man named Barack Obama. We have taken the house and the senate, any supreme court appointees will be made by Obama and not McCain or even worse Palin.
Sure there is still work to do -- but damn at least now we have some tools to do it with.
As far as prop 8 goes, it is awful that it passed, but the NYS senate just went democratic, I am sure it is only a matter of time before gay marriage become legal here. Did you ever wonder why neither side brought the issue up to the Supreme Court; they are both waiting for a court that they think will be favorable to their position. With appointments by Obama, it is far more likely the court will side with the pro marriage argument. And if that happens, then all those nasty hateful laws and amendments just go away.
So for one day, marvel that America has a chance again. That there is once again the possibility that we can live up to our ideals.
And that we will have a president who can speak coherently
What's next? A constitutional amendment that requires all US Citizens believe in Christianity?
PZ,
This post just makes me fucking ANGRY.
The guy just got elected.
ONE DAY.
YOU JUST VOTED FOR HIM !
And that's it, you and other people are already trying to predict how he is going to govern, when they have, in all honesty, no fucking clue.
That's it, it's already decided, he's not going to do the right thing in Iraq or with healthcare, actually we don't really know what he's going to do exactly, but we're already predicting that it's not going to be enough.
Can't you at least wait until he's president and he anounces what he's actually going to do before you start bad mouthering him ?
I mean how naïve are you, how many times have you ever participated in a presdential election, have you ever seen a candidate following exactly the promisses he has made during his campaign ? Nope !
So the only thing you know from Obama is roughly the direction he wants to give to this country, the broad lines, and his personality, his intellect, the kind of man he is. Don't try to draw unwarranted conclusion from his campaign in the general election, that is so naïve, so childish, it hurts !
Nicole, the Democrats didn't take the House and Senate - they already had leads there. Those leads were widened a small amount, but that's it.
Dammit. Yeah. Looks like it was Google News glitch making that look newer than it was. The 3am story was based on exit polls, which looked better. People saying outside the polls 'oh, no, I'm not a bigot', I guess. Current returns tracker doesn't look promising, at 95% precincts reported.
Of course it is silly to think that suddenly everything will be better. No, it is going to take time.
The difference is that now there is reason to be optimistic. And the attitude of the country does matter in this regard.
I also find it quite odd and sad that people in third world countries caught the Obama fever. It's not like the fact of him spewing the words change and hope will actually change the WTO, IMF and World Bank policies that cause a huge part of their poverty and rapid urbanisation
No, you are right he cannot do those things. However what he can do is initiate such things or join with other world leaders to do so or even such minimal things as simply getting the US the hell out of the way while the rest of us get on with things. For eg might we know see the US fuding proper family planning in the 3rd world through perfectly respectable NGOs even if they do give out condoms and help the desperate get abortions?
If that one thing is the sum total of President Obama's term then he will have saved a lot of lives. Lets not pretend that the Lame Duck was only bad for the US shall we? Remember it is not only US and UK servicepeople who die in Iraq and Afghanistan. Do ya think that just maybe Obama might be open to the idea that a dead person might be worth weeping over even if they are brown and foreign?
Let's just promise not to call it Obama Nation-- it's too phonetically close to "Abomination."
Does Pharynguphile always have a stick that far up his ass? I'm telling you- it must be scratching up against his sorry excuse for a brain.
Killfiled.
Looks like there's a good chance the Chambliss race will go to a runoff. Maybe we Georgians can still make him unemployed!
Palin was defeated. The RR took one big step towards being marginalized.
Prop 8 was a disappointment, but overall, I'm happier today than I was yesterday about my neighbours to the south.
Of COURSE Obama is going to face serious obstacles and difficulties. Of COURSE government is still going to be stupid, and yes, social conservatives still exist (however, I note with some glee that the callers to one of the local right-wing blowhard radio shows are crying tears of impotent rage this morning, dismayed that a Marxist Muslim Maoist Socialist Anti-American Terrorist Sympathizer is in the White House).
But a journey of a thousand miles really does start with one step. Don't write the history book about the Obama presidency less than 12 hours after he was elected. Sheesh.
PZ - not all battles are won for the good side at once. Many times a lost battle now can become a victory later. Sun Tzu had much to apply to life & politics. The greater good will evolve in time...revolutions come in small battles.
At least the glass is in hand and there is drink to be had.
#151
Well for one thing the amount of money raised, oh and the incessant worldwide coverage, the massive ralies, the rhetoric and prophetic tone surrounding him, the intensely partisant dog and pony show that often played out in the streets.
You have to understand I am Canadian and politics are radically different here. You know, politicians make speeches about their plans ideas and eventual course of action and aside from Stephen Harper you don't really see the whole smear campaign thing. There are attacks, but the attacks are on the opposing parties platforms in a fact based fashion. Very little money is raised for the campaigns and the odd american habbit of enclosing each issue in an idiosyncratic talking point is pretty much absent.
The one note of comfort I take in the passage of Crock 8 in California is the voter demographics: young voters sided SIGNIFICANTLY in favor of equality. We just need to wait for more people in that state to die off, and marriage equality will come to be.
Oh, and am I the only person who feels the LDS Church should lose its tax-exempt status over this? Seriously, they gave $20 million to defeat gay marriage equality. If that isn't a violation of C&S separation, I don't know what is.
At least the ReTHUGlicans got the mother of all beatings! Now, how about an Asian-American president?
PZ, two steps forward and one step back is better than the hellish one step forward and two steps back we've had for 20 of the past 28 years. Rejoice. For one day, rejoice. America is slowly learning.
@foole,
The only hope we Georgians have of making it go past a runoff and allow for an actual Martin win is to get the vote out in all of these bloodred rural counties. We already know for example, that my urban county (Fulton) is going to Jim Martin. We need to take a lesson from the Obama campaign and take the offensive in campaigning. It might be harder if they've gotten as angry as we saw McCain supporters were last night.
Wow. I don't think I've ever been more disappointed in one of your posts, PZ.
Your blog... your opinions... so, it is what it is. But talk about poor timing. You couldn't be more of a wet blanket.
So, in the spirit of this blog, I'm going to treat that post like I would any other and give you a hearty "go fuck yourself".
The news this morning was all a-babble over a "post-racial America". Nonsense. A significant minority still hates people over the color of their skin, and you know the skinheads are cleaning their rifles right now.
Let's also remember that Obama is only half black, and also that he's fairly well off socioeconomically, so his victory doesn't necessarily mean that everything will be easier for, say, lower economic, darker-skinned blacks, who in my experience are the major targets of racism and stereotypes nowadays.
spyderkl at #79:
My understanding of "real change" is that baby steps is how it happens:
Ancient Grecian Democracy: doesn't give women the right to vote and still allows for slavery, but it's a start toward the idea that people in a social system have say in how government operates.
1215: Magna Carta doesn't abolish religious monarchies, but it's a move to establishing habeus corpus.
16th century: the work of Copernicus, Kepler, and Galileo proves the sun is the gravitational center of our solar system, and it doesn't put an end to superstitions and exceptionalism that the Earth is at the heart of everything, but it's a start.
19th century: Emancipation Proclamation is bold (and overdue), but doesn't exactly get embraced by everybody in 1863. Amendments 13, 14, and 15 follow and receive ratification, but that doesn't end discrimination on the basis of skin color in this country. It has to go all the way to the 20th century for women to earn the right to vote in this nation. Yet those are all moments to recognize for their contribution toward change.
1954: Brown v. Board of Education. Finally, an end to discrimination and the ludicrous idea of "separate but equal," right? Sadly, no. But it was another step along the road.
I could go on, but I hope I've made my point. It's why I'm optimistic this morning. It's not about overnight change. It's about making it through one more night towards long-term change.
No kings,
Robert
Again, support of a candidate is not crowning him supreme God Being.
Yes there is going to be some of that but the squeaky wheel gets the grease. The majority of people that voted for Obama were not the ones you see exhibiting that quirk.
At least the ReTHUGlicans got the mother of all beatings! Now, how about an Asian-American president?
at least you know an asian president would be able to balance the budget.
Jeez, thanks for peeing in my cornflakes. Coulda given me a day at least. I mean, yes, I'm a realist and know all that but at least all hope is not yet abandoned. Now we can get get to work and quit bitching...
#158
Did you know that those NGOs operate on the premise of boot strap capitalism and actually disrupt housing initiatives by creating slumlordism? Yeah, good work.
I'd say he has weakened it: you don't have to be an evangelical fundie, you can be a wishy-washy European-style liberal Christian and still be president.
Fuck.
Frankly, I wonder how much fraud was involved. After all, Chambliss only won by fraud last time (in 2002).
And what kind of voting machines exactly do you use in Bachmann's district...?
And Stevens... in the latest polls he was considerably behind, as expected for a convicted felon. How is voting done in Alaska?
Evidently something you can get legally in the Netherlands. After all, he's right. Obama -- like Kerry and both Clintons -- would fit comfortably into any big conservative party in Europe.
All true, but at least give me one day to enjoy this!
Also,...at least here in Colorado the Prop 8 (Human Life from Moment of Conception amendment) got stomped on - 73% to 27%. The Focus Fundies are very pissed here in Colorado Springs...this half glass tastes good.
YES
Think baby steps PZ...we need you now more than ever!!!
baby steps to the house, baby steps to the senate and now baby steps to the Prez! You can't run overnight!
I should be happier about Obama, but I'm so consumed with anger about Prop 8. I know religion has caused much greater atrocities, but I've never felt so much accute anger at it as I do now. The mormon church sank $20 MILLION into this stupid campaign, which was losing before the bullshit sack of lies they saturated the TV with.
frankly, there are parts of the Dem agenda that we really need some challenge on. - jayh
I fully agree. Since there's no left-of-centre party to offer this challenge, and only a handful of individual members of Congress, it will have to come from grassroots activity.
spyderkl,
I should have read further along before posting. You and foxfire had a quick dialog about exactly what I was trying to say. Sorry for the late post - I'm a slow typist, and hadn't read far enough ahead by that point.
No kings,
Robert
#154
I wonder if you would have said that had McCain won...
Well, I'm still smiling this morning. Some bad things happened last night, but there were plenty of good things to keep me happy. McRage and his dumbass sidekick are packing it up. And so is that nasty Elizabeth Dole. In my home state, Tom Harkin and Leonard Boswell won handily. We've got a long way to go, and we'll probably have to wait a bit more for real change, but for now I'm a pretty content girl. :D
First part is undoubtedly true, but Obama has strengthened it? I fail to see how Obama's election can be seen as anything other than the US electorate repudiating the narrow Republican Base of extreme religious right evangelicals. Obama's election is a step in the right direction for atheists.
All I can say this morning is: PRESIDENT-ELECT OBAMA, BABY!!!!
We have an inspiring, competent, intelligent, moral man elected to the most powerful job in the world, and he happens to be a black man. Fan-effing-tastic, baby.
Yeah, Bush has left our nation in the ditch. But would you rather have McCain in charge of the tow-truck? Would you rather have (that egregiously ignorant nit wit) Palin in charge?!
People in Mpls/StP were dancing in the streets last night. THIS DOES NOT NORMALLY HAPPEN after a presidential election.
The entire world hoped we'd do the right thing and elect Obama.
I predict that President Obama will immediately stop the torture, demand an immediate accounting of the treatment and plans for our unconstitutionally-held "enemy combattants" and either try them in the US or set them free before 2009 is out.
(Colin Powell for SECDEF)
I'm still pinching myself that we've elected a black man for our president (and in a big way.) Race had nothing to do with my vote for Obama (I'm a BHL white boy.) Morality had everything to do with it. And a shout out for intelligence.
@ spyderkl #132 & 134:
Wrt # 134: Ya gotta do the "blockquote" thingie - {blockquote} words to cite {/blockquote}, replacing "{" with the sidewase V thing (@#$% editor won't let me show you).
Wrt #132: The trouble with revolutionary change is that it may not work like one expects immediately (see immediate aftermath of French revolution and Iran today).
Look at the Wart that was placed on Oregon's constitution. Not a real great win (about 56.7% vs 43.3%). Think about what the spread might have been in 1960...or 1776. Cool thing is that the Oregon legislature enacted civil unions for gay people in 2007 and the scum-sucking sanctimonious slime who opposed *that* couldn't get enough signatures for an initiative to revoke the legislation on the 2008 ballot.
One step at a time.
As I understand it, this would allow the senate to pass bills much more easily
In theory, maybe, but this whole 60-seat majority assumes that all the Democrats will vote for cloture unanimously, which is not very likely. Democrats do not walk in lock-step the way Republicans do.
Anyway, I say let the Republicans filibuster. But make then actually filibuster. For the past two years, all they've had to do is threaten, and Harry Reid instantly caved in to their demands. It's gotten so bad that some people are actually under the impression that a 60-person majority is needed to pass any bills in the Senate now.
The Republicans are going to continue to be obstructionists. Stop making it easy for them, Harry Reid.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, since politics/American Law Making is not my field of study, but doesn't Prop 8 go against the full faith clause? Meaning that since gay marriages are legal in other states, California can't declare those null and void, even if the people move to California. So, even with Prop 8 passing, since other states have gay marriage, isn't that a foot in the door? And that's not to mention the fact that numerous gay marriages happened all summer. The genie is out of the bottle, and no matter what the religious right tries to do, I would imagine that from a legal and/or federal standpoint, they have feet of clay.
Am I right about this?
@ Desert Son # 184: Your voice just added to the conversation!
Baby steps forward better than none!
I just have to say this: No.More.Bush.
Damn that felt good!
I was ecstatic about Obama, but depressed and angry about Prop 8. I'm married now, but its unclear how my husband's and my marriage will navigate the CA system. It can't be unmade, but that doesn't mean it will be equal. Separate never is.
Though what's disappointing is that really what won out was people voting their interests (Obama) and yet happily voting down the interests of others. People want health care, and jobs, and safety, and an education for their children. Yet they are more than happy to take that away from others like me.
At heart I am basically a hippy, but this infuriates me. I'm an ER doctor and when I see someone uninsured, I work hard to ensure that they get the smallest bill possible. Often I put myself on the line to do that by practicing less defensive medicine: doing the right thing rather than what serves my own interests and is safest for me personally.
And right now I feel like saying 'fuck it' to the people of California. I feel like going to work and doing what is best and safest for me rather than what is best and safest for them. If they want to be selfish homophobic fucktards maybe I should be selfish too. Maybe I should do a more intensive work-up and send the lab test that will cover my ass in a suit. In doing so I will also increase the billing I generate per patient. So I will be less likely to be sued and have a higher income.... which might start making up for what I lose because my partner and I are denied the same rights and privileges as a straight couple.
Very likely I will feel differently soon. But if not here's a little of the reason why for the people of CA: you reap what you sow.
From a somewhat old CNN story:
If only Kay Hagan actually had been an atheist, then we could have a friend in the Senate.
Unfortunately, that is not the case.
Gabe,
Nope, but I wouldn't have voted for him either.
A little blog whoring on my part, but I have a post on the Prop 8 passage and a question I now have. There are so many states featuring amendments defining marriage as one man and one woman, but none of them ever define what they mean by man or woman. Leaves us with a few conundrums when we start trying to actually lay out a concise definition.
So a sober and measured response somehow taints atheism?
You are entitled to your myopic euphoria, but don't assume any response other than giddy wide eyed optimism is dysphoric and inappropriate. Hell, we've got 77 days of Bush & Co. before Obama takes office as well as the same residual national stupidity we've always had. It didn't magically disappear once the election results were tallied and quoted.
The damage done by the Bush Administrastion, along with peripheral damage left from the Clinton Administration, the Bush Sr. Admin. & so on, will take years to repair, and in some cases, might be only haphazardly patched, if not outright ignored.
Obama: the good news -he won. The bad news- he won. He now has a tiger by the tail, it's rabid and hungry and has infected or devoured everyone who has come before.
I am optimistic. I voted for Obama but I'm guarded also -he's human. To quote Roger Waters, "give any one species too much rope... and they'll fuck it up."
My schadenfreude moment of euphoria:
Liddy Dole: You're fired! Hahahahahahahahahahahah.
florida passed amendment 2. i guess nobody's paying much attention to us because gay marriage wasn't legal here before... but this is a major loss for senior citizens, common law marriages, and any couple who picked titles other than "husband and wife."
Yeah, we know the bad news. We've been immersed in bad news for years, as the country's spiraled downward. Between the never-ending wars and the devastation to our economy, it's going to take a long time to turn things around.
But the good news is an enormous relief. A gradual upward struggle is one hell of a lot better than a guaranteed swirl down the toilet bowl.
And Amendment 48 is good and dead here in Colorado, so that conception will not be legally defined as the beginning of "personhood."
And gay marriage has been an upward fight all along, so that's not anything new or all that shocking. I think we all knew that we still have a long way to go on gay rights.
But life is so bleak and crappy right now that we urgently needed some good news at long last.
Well, you've confirmed some of my suspicions. I would guess the only way you'll view his presidency as a positive is once he's been out of office for a few years. Am I right? Soldier on and keep voting Kucinich 8-)
Regarding Chambliss - it definitely looks like a runoff election. I talked to my county Democratic organizer down here...he predicted last week that there would be a runoff AND that President-Elect Obama would stop by the state to help campaign for Martin. Considering the enthusiasm of the winning Democrats, the disgust and frustration of the losing Republicans, and the excitement caused by Obama campaigning (if he truly does), I think Martin has a good chance to take this one on the second try.
I voted Libertarian the first time - Buckley doesn't seem to suffer from Barr's nutball attitudes quite so much. But I'll vote for Martin over Chambliss, now that Buckley is out.
What about raising a lot of money equals mania to you?
I know everyone's tired of hearing it, but this was an historic election. I would hae been surprised if there wasn't world wide coverage.
Can you cite some specific examples? This is not something I remember from the campaign.
That happens in every election. In this election, there was far more rancor on the conservative side than on the liberal side.
Obama's campaign didn't run on a smear basis, so I'm not seeing how this is a valid criticism of Obama or his "manic" supporters.
Again, this is a general characteristic of American politics and not limited to any one party or any one candidate. And I still fail to see how it demonstrates mania among those who voted for Obama...
@Rowen,
Good job interpreting our constitution. That's exactly correct. I think California can revoke the licenses it issued itself, but you're right. If people from Vermont choose to settle in California with their Vermontian (Vermontese? Vermonter? Vermontistani?) civil union status, they can enjoy their rights under the provisions of that contract. However any legal issues between them are ultimately to be resolved in Vermont.
Well said PZ.
On the bright side, the lesser of two evils won. And we now have a president with a fully functional brain for the first time in a long time.
I take comfort in knowing that even though "change is gonna come" it doesn't include people like me. Here's to our continued second class status as gay Americans.
he hasn't promised any strong change in Iraq
He's made it very clear he wants to stop wasting taxpayer money in Iraq. He will get us out of there a lot sooner than McCain would have.
We're still afflicted with the curse of religiosity as a political prerequisite, and Obama has strengthened it.
When Obama talks about science education, unlike many other politicians, he leaves the magic fairy out of it. He would never say something stupid like "I believe in evolution. But I also believe, when I hike the Grand Canyon and see it at sunset, that the hand of God is there also."
Get ready for the best president in United States history. He has something I've never seen before in a president, intelligence.
"I'm bound to leeaaaave
o-old Texas nowwwww.
The have no uuuuuse
for -"
... reason...critical thinking... science...
Dumb-ass ID-loving red(neck) State.
Gabe @ 176
Uh, would you care to cite that?
PZ is correct to dampen the optimism.
You're not going to get any change. You're going to get more war, more depressions, more and bigger deficits, more poverty, more taxes, more misery, lower wages, higher cost health care, a bigger, badder, meaner police state, regulatory state, welfare state, and warfare state.
In short, it will get worse in every conceivable way. And no, I don't support Bush, nor did I vote for McCain.
One thing that will change is that the big government, big spending, pro foreign-intervention liberals won't have Bush to blame anymore. They also control Congress. So it will be interesting to see who they DO blame when things continue to get worse under the Obama administration.
Be careful what you wish for...
I cannot say how incredibly disappointed I am in the passing of Prop 8. Living in Texas, I could not vote against it. So, all I can do now is boycott the state until it comes to its senses and de-institutionalizes discrimination. Maybe this has been suggested already, maybe it's overreacting, and maybe it's ultimately useless. Nonetheless, for now I will boycott, to as great an extent as I can, all products from California: wines, fruits and other foods, clothing, and Hollywood. That's what my current outrage tells me to do. I am open to other suggestions.
I think your pessimism is uncalled-for, PZ. This is a monumental step in dragging this country and its citizens, kicking and screaming, into the 21st century. Clearly not all the news from last night was good, but I think we are making tremendous progress in the right direction. You cannot expect a switch to be flipped somewhere to make all Americans suddenly more rational and clear-headed, but I'm hoping this is just the first step towards turning this country around.
"He has something I've never seen before in a president, intelligence."
Obviously you never saw Jimmy Carter or Richard Nixon. Both quite intelligent, probably more so than Obama. Intelligence in not a very good predictor of presidential greatness.
To my godless eyes it was the most dismally primitive moment of the night - the priest might as well have sacrificed a goat while he was up there. - Bostonian@68
I know a number of goats who would disagree!
Well, I agree with your sentiments, but as a foreigner I have to say that whatever Obama does, he can't be as bad as what you have had during the last 8 years (as a friend observed, even a lobotomized Obama would be better than Bush). And he can't be as bad as a McMilf win would have been. The US will not change in the way you desire in the next 50 years. Maybe not in the next 100. Humans are, on average, too gullible and stupid. I'd love to see the changes you speak of, but I have no illusion that they will be anything but ongoing struggles that will last the rest of my lifetime and the lifetimes of my children. But Obama is a very tiny step back from the abyss. Now if the hate mongers can only back off and let him have a crack at it.
I'd love to read this comment thread, but don't have the time. Sorry for not participating.
Screw you negative nellies.
I feel good, and I deserve to.
Today the fight begins, but the chances moved in our favor.
We've taken a huge step. We've made history. We feel stronger going forward.
I've spent the last eight years on my heels and now I'm sure footed. You guys coming with me or are you just going to sit and bitch?
It's only a battle in the war, but it's a battle the good guys won.
As much as I supported Obama, and was happy for his win the fact remains:
1) He is a religious man who states openly that he is against same sex marriage.
2) He is a black man who supports separate but "equal" on this issue.
I have been pointing out to those who ask me to "know hope" on this issue, that the arc for gays is going the wrong way. In the 90's and early 2000's we had no legal marriage rights. The laws being proposed sought to ensure not only that this remained the case, but proposed to enact laws making sure that same sex marriage was not allowed. And when state supreme courts inevitably found that this violated state constitutional provisions of all people being equal, we've had a very successful run of constitutional amendments to rectify that reality.
We are going BACKWARDS thanks to religious bigots. And, as much as I like Obama on many other fronts, he is one of them.
More libertarian bullshit from BluesBassist...
It's amazing all those statements of absolute fact you spouted off in that post. There's a cool $1 mil waiting for you at JREF... go get it!
The only thing I know for sure is that you'll continue to wallow in your obscure, unpopular, flawed ideology... probably because it makes you feel special and unique.
Another perspective. No comment just interesting reading.
The man writing is As'ad Abu Khalil, political science professor at California State University Stanislaus. I admit to pimping his blog every chance I get.
Obviously you never saw Jimmy Carter or Richard Nixon. Both quite intelligent, probably more so than Obama.
Jimmy Carter = long gas lines because he wouldn't remove price controls. It was for many good reasons he lost reelection in a landslide.
Nixon = total wacko.
Are you sure you want to claim they were intelligent?
Intelligence is not a very good predictor of presidential greatness.
Perhaps not, but I noticed stupidity is a very good predictor of presidential failure.
Make that an Asian-American, homosexual, sci-fi president - Sulu! A female, atheist one will just have to wait, I suppose. Although a transsexual one (either direction) could be interesting ...
Prop 8 and the few Republican victories may be bad news, but it wasn't all bad.
Remember, Elizabeth "Atheists aren't real Americans" Dole has lost her senate seat, showing that accusing someone of being "godless" holds less water with folks than it used to. The Michigan proposal for legalizing medical marijuana won by a large margin. It even won by a 60-40 margin in some of the rural, conservative counties on the west side of the state. Embryonic stem cell research was also legalized in Michigan.
Although the victories last night were bittersweet, there is always tomorrow. We can't expect every positive social change to happen in one night, but let's not forget that yesterday was a huge step in the right direction.
I'm afraid, however, that this pro-Obama euphoria across the world is going to wear off. Hardly any president sticks to his principles when he attains office. Not even Thomas Jefferson, that famous champion of small government, couldn't resist expanding the powers of the executive branch in order to purchase Louisiana while using the central bank he railed against for years to finance it.
Hurray and crap.
Prop 4 looks like it's going down, but just barely, this would have required parental consent for minor abortions, and had very little recourse for girls who live in abusive families or are victims of incest.
I know prop 8 has been mentioned. What kills me is the lies that put it over the top: "freedom of religion" & "freedom of speech" being some of biggest stretches I saw.
In my district, Duncan Hunter passed his House seat down to his son, who is likely to be just as big of an anti-immigrant, thinly veiled racist, pro-war tool.
Really sorry to hear about Bachman in MN. I can't believe that McCarthyism is acceptable anywhere these days.
Karey @182- "I should be happier about Obama, but I'm so consumed with anger about Prop 8. I know religion has caused much greater atrocities, but I've never felt so much accute anger at it as I do now. The mormon church sank $20 MILLION into this stupid campaign, which was losing before the bullshit sack of lies they saturated the TV with."
I know, couldn't agree more. My feeling this morning is powerlessness and rage. How can this happen? Religious groups come from out of state with millions, to get bigotry written into the CA state constitution. It works, and all those smugly grinning Mormon automatons slink back to SLC, AND NOTHING CAN BE DONE ABOUT IT?
I have many opinions about churches, but the overriding one for today is "are they flammable?"
Slightly OT - and from the UK.
On another message board, someone commented that with Obama in control the Republican War on Science should be over.
Someone else said: "Not really. The "Republican War on Science" will continue - the only difference is that the Democrats are now top dogs. The Republicans still have enormous influence and wallets in many American states, and their neanderthal campaign against reality will continue. In fact, this might lead to an even more dangerous situation, simply because they won't be in the public gaze as much now, and can carry on with their relentless anti-science activities behind the scenes."
Any comment on this? Can pharynulites and other like minded folks manage to get Repub. skullduggery noticed and fought?
No doubt. The media only briefly covered the fact that white males voted for McCain and the disparity was huge in the southern heartland of Dumbfuckistan. Particularly those embarrassments to civilization like Oklahoma and Texas and much of the rest of the dimwitted South.
Well, I've never believed that Obama was a conservative centrist democrat like Kerry or Clinton.
I've always thought all of this was a mask that he had to wear in order to be electorable, including his religiosity.
I've always thought that the real Obama is actually what scares all those conservative Americans, the one that befriends people like Khalidi, that will be in a unique position to arbitrate and brng peace between Palestine and Israël, that is close to social and leftist causes, that has been influenced by radicalsm, that he is a man of the poor and the middle classes and not the rich. That he really understands the world of the 21st century, that he has a multicultural background himself, that he knows that it's necessary to talk with our enemies and not ignore them, that it's necessary to reduce military spending and increase large scientific research projects.
That he understands that in this economic recession, government will need to become stronger and not weaker.
I liked his speech on religion he made in February where he clearly indicated that secularism would be his guiding prnciple in govt, and that all faiths and non faiths are on equal footing.
So maybe I'm mistaken, time will tell, but for now, I see no reason to a priori predict that he's going to be a wishy washy conservative centrist and not an agent of change.
Give the man a chance.
At least.
That's why you've voted for him.
Rev @ #138:
November 5th is Guy Fawkes Day in the UK. (He tried to blow up Parliament.)
_________
I don't vote based on single issues or who I think will protect my pet projects. As a member of several still-openly-discriminated-against subsets of humanity, I know my issues will not be resolved by any political candidate anytime soon. I vote based on intelligence, judgment, vision, experience and character. Obama is not going to do everything I want. He's going to do quite a few things I don't agree with. But in comparison to McCain/Palin? This is a day to be proud of ourselves for reclaiming our country's ideals.
PZ, you live a relatively privileged life as a straight white male tenured professor in the US. And now, much more of what you value will be supported in the Obama administration than in the previous 8 years (or the horror of McCain/Palin that could have happened). Reason enough to stop crying in your beer and do a little jig.
Tomorrow, you can start holding his feet to the fire. Today, kick up your heels: this is as good as it gets.
Desert Son #184: No worries! By the time you wait patiently for a comment to load, 6 more have already gone through. Glad you spoke up!
Foxfire #189:
Ah - I think I've got it!
As for the rest of it - I do get that lasting, meaningful change happens slowly. It's just that there are going to be a lot of whingers in the next couple of months - hell, not even months, try weeks - asking when things are going to be better.
The only reason I'm feeling optimistic at all this morning is that Amendment 48 here in CO died a swift, bloody death yesterday. The rest of it...we'll all just have to wait and see. But it's looking a lot better than if it were President-elect McCain today.
That was the whole point of the Defense of Marriage Act, to undercut that argument. DOMA says that states do not have to recognize same-sex marriages from other states (and we have Bill Clinton to thank for it).
It may have already been said but
The (Revolting) Republican Revolution
(1994 - 2008)
May it rest in pieces
Nobody's pissing in your Post Toasties™: this morning. Dance if you want to - hell scream shout and do the nekkid boogaloo, just don't be offended offensive if some of us choose to be a bit more circumspect and just watch you do the victory dance.
And please remember, it's PZ's party and he'll cry if he wants to.
Custer's last words: "Hell, I don't know what's the matter with these indians... they were alright last night at the party."
Myers/Plait 12!
Does anyone here think that an Obama administration could be bad for science? Genetic research and its implications in Sociobiology, to give one example.
about religion as a prerequisite for political power: http://jeffreyleow.wordpress.com/2008/11/05/obamas-christianity/
some apparently already think obama didn't thank god often enough. wtf?
note that this guy is not american, but I guess there are more americans than we imagine who feel the same way.
Don't be such a wet blanket.
This is the single biggest leap forward in race-relations in about 40 yrs, and the leftwardmost leap since probably Kennedy. Obama was the most liberal viable candidate and he won by a large margin and in states that haven't voted for a dem since the 1964 landslide. He's religious, yes, but he certainly didn't start out that way, and his faith was never a selling point the way it has been in past elections.
After 8 years of fear mongering and ultra-conservatism, the US has resoundingly elected a unapologetically liberal black guy with a ridiculous, foreign-sounding name, a non-american father, an athiest single-mother, and an extended family that looks like the UN. --and none of those things was an especially big deal!
Racists will always exist, but the point is that they don't MATTER anymore. Are African-Americans somberly expressing disappointment that 47% of people didn't vote for him? Of course not! They're weeping with joy and hugging complete strangers.
If this doesn't make you happy, no election will ever make you happy. Be proud of America!
FYI - 8 is too close to call, so it hasn't passed, yet...
"Perhaps not, but I noticed stupidity is a very good predictor of presidential failure."
Can't disagree with that one.
"Are you sure you want to claim they were intelligent?"
Yes, in many ways. Any reading about their lives will verify my statement. I will not, however, vouch for their common sense or absence of personal flaws.
Odd? Obama is ABB, and McSame isn't.
What is this "cite" you speak of? Is that something to eat? Over here you have to use real HTML: <blockquote> and </blockquote>.
Ah, really. How are votes counted in California?
Did Ted Stevens get re-elected?
at least there is a glass to fill.
Well done America.
I hope that your new President makes a go of it or Palin will be in after the next election.
Not clear what you are talking about here. Can you explain?
David #240:
But...but...I want the Lazy Girl's HTML! :D
I thought Prop 8 wasn't being called yet because the mail-in votes have yet to be counted. All the exit polls do is provide something for the news outlets to talk about for 6 hours.
Pablo, looks like he did. It's highly unlikely that he'll serve, though - the Republicans want him to step down. If he doesn't there's a good chance the Senate will kick him out (67 senators have to vote to do so, which seems probable).
On a lighter note and related to PZ's title for this thread:
The optimist says: It's half-full.
The pessimist says: It's half-empty
The engineer says: The glass is 50% over-designed.
Ha!
In this case, it is more than half-full. But I agree with PZ that now we need to take a stick to the Dems and make them do some good things.
Ahh. Crap. Forgive my American centric historical ignorance.
sheesh I should know better
> Obama -- like Kerry and both Clintons -- would fit
> comfortably into any big conservative party in Europe.
Not in Poland or Italy, and probably not in Ireland, either.
In the other countries, they would fit comfortably into the conservative mainstream on fiscal and economic issues (if such a thing like a "fiscal conservative mainstream" still exists nowadays - even conservative administrations have nationalised large parts of the banking sector of their respective countries during the last few weeks), but probably not on social issues like immigration, abortion or gay and lesbian rights.
This said, Obama - or the Clintons - would fit comfortably into New Labour as well.
For today, I am happy:
http://digitalcuttlefish.blogspot.com/2008/11/yes-we-can.html
Yes, goddamit. The silver lining may be that he has to face more ignominy than Sen. Larry Craig; that is, if he is capable of feeling shame.
Yeah we dumb red necks don't know shit down here.
idiot.
Derbyshire? That you? How's that magazine of yours doing?
I much prefer incremental change by a sane centrist over the radical program run by an ideologue, as we've seen the last eight years. I'd say the glass at least three-quarters full.
YES WE CAN!
(but will we?)
Remember, remember the Fifth of November,
The Gunpowder Treason and Plot,
I can think of no reason
Why the Gunpowder Treason
Should ever be forgot.
Guy Fawkes, Guy Fawkes, t'was his intent
To blow up the King and Parli'ment.
Three-score barrels of powder below
To prove old England's overthrow;
By God's providence he was catch'd
With a dark lantern and burning match.
Holloa boys, holloa boys, let the bells ring.
Holloa boys, holloa boys, God save the King!
I'm dancing in the streets and completely overjoyed! Sure we have many good fights to continue, but now we can hold down the Supreme Court and begin to repair the damage Bush has done to our country. Just imagine what would have happened had McCain won--we may not have equal marriage rights but we still have Lawrence v. Texas and that is not going to go away.
Every time I have heard Obama talk about marriage, he has taken the chance to separately list some of the marriage rights that even the most rabid homophobes would have to agree with (Biden has started doing that, too). Eventually if we can whittle marriage down to just the ceremony, then it won't matter at all and the bigotry will be plain as day to everyone.
As for Obama's religiosity, I don't see him as totally irrational about it. Religion is an instrument he uses to connect to the larger society of believers. I am just so used to religion being used by the majority to beat people over the head that I am wary when Obama brings it up. It always helps, though, when he mentions non-believers and non-Christians.
#234,
Smartest Comment in the thread. I would reverse it though. PZ's a little too harsh for most Americans to accept as prez.
*scratches beard*
It's time for some facial hair in the White House.
I will dance in the streets, and you can't stop me.
Sorry, PZ.
What concerns me most is this red/blue divide. On the CNN map, they showed all the blue areas that Obama had won in places like Utah, and there were none. So you have Nevada, who voted for Obama by a greater percentage than CA did, right next door to Utah, which is also right next door to Colorado, which is just down the street from Montana, and you wonder... How can these states even get along?
How welcome in Utah is a Nevada plate now? Can these people look each other in the eye any more?
And the problem with 8... Unfortunately (and I voted no on 8), there isn't as much support from the "straight" community as gays assume, even in San Francisco. That 8 failed in SF should be no surprise, but if you break it down into gay vs. straight demographics, you'd be very surprised how little support gay marriage has with straight voters, even in SF.
I think it's bigotry, and I think this vote will be overturned in the courts, but it doesn't change this one thing: Gays don't have as much support as they think they do.
Sorry if that makes people mad.
CNN also proved last night, if accidentally, that the Bradley Effect is alive and well. Many, many red-states that elected Dem senators all had one thing in common: The Dem senator would win by 4-5 points, while Obama would win by 1-2 points, or even lose. It was an outcome that made no sense to me.
Personally, I think we just elected someone who will go down as one of our best presidents ever. That was certainly a great speech. Eloquent, with historical references, nuanced, a plea for unity, humbleness... Obama set the bar very high with his speech. Certainly worlds apart from, "I have earned political capital, and I intend to spend it." What a contrast.
I know I go on. Sorry.
"Proposition 8 won. "
How on earth can a state that elects a minority to be president, destroy the lives of others?
Inexplicable stupidity. I blame religion.
Well, I am disappointed in my native state of California for showing its bigotry around the edges. Ironically, it was prolly the Catholic Hispanic vote that put this abominable piece of government turdism over the top and on the books.
Liberals have themselves to blame, for promoting the idea that government is a social manipulator, a way to control society by a simple majority. By poo pooing the Constitution and adhering to its tenets, there will be no argument about whether Prop. 8 is "Constitutional" because we don't give a crap about that piece of paper anymore. Sure, the Republican party as a whole is even more to blame, soaking up the Evangelicals and using god as a voting block glue...
...but the liberal idea of state-control and state manipulation, as opposed to the founding ideas of liberty and freedom, is what gave people the idea that one could simply vote in their bigotry if they got a majority.
If I were gay and living in California I would do several things. Get married anyway. Stop paying California income taxes and ask all friends and relatives to do the same, sending in a slip that tells what you owe, and declaring you will pay it after your rights are fully granted as a citizen of the US under the Constitution. I'd dress up in pink and stand in front of churches, but only in good neighborhoods...
On another note, here is a short list of the things that SHOULD HAVE been front and center this election but were swept under the rug for sound bites and messages of "hope"...
1)The 10.6 Trillion dollar debt.
2)The DOD and the vast amount of tax wealth they have squandered.
3)The very notion that America is the policeman of the world. Over 130 countries have our military bases in them. They are paid for by taxing regular Americans and then shipping the money out of the country. (For why this is bad, see 1 above...)
4)The Federal Reserve. Alan Greenspan says "Ooops!" for creating a massive housing bubble and Bernanke says "I didn't know!" when asked why he never warned a soul... but neither questions the validity of their making the decisions in the first place. Who OWNS the Federal Reserve, and WHO profits from it? Neither candidate will touch this topic, or get involved in monetary policy discussions publically, even though the Federal Reserve and our monetary policy are about to be front and center in every American's life.
5)The 9% Congressional approval rating. Just how many Congressmen and women did you vote back into office because you voted for a party? How many Democrats in Congress is Obama going to chastise for being part of the problem in Washington? Are we to believe it is "the other party" that caused all of the debt?
5)The next wave of housing foreclosures and the massive credit card tsunami coming in March and April of next year...
6)The fact that America is flat broke...
I remain entirely uninpressed that a black man has become president.
This only goes to show that not everyone can become president. Obama is an immensely talented and intellingent man who got lucky and worked hard. He is a lawyer from harvard and made it to the senate. Hardly your average person, white or black. His revenue is over or close to a million a year and he got the support from buisiness as well a a mass of individual contributions due to strategically capitalising on the failings of the past 8 years.
Had Gore or Kerry won I am not quite sure Obama would be here.
It's exceptional, but that doesn't mean it's profoundly Historical with a capital H. The world will go on as before so please get over yourselves as a nation.
"Proposition 8 won. "
How on earth can a state that elects a minority to be president, destroy the lives of others?
Inexplicable stupidity. I blame religion.
According to Palin, marriage is a sacred institution. Reserved for two unwilling and ignorant kids who discovered too late where babies come from.
Who knows? As far as I can tell, in Alaska, graduating from high school makes you an intellectual elitist.
Since I really should be working, I've only skimmed the comments. So forgive me if these have already been mentioned...
But on the bright side, there were four ballot measures that passed that diverge from the general religious sensibilities, and actually show some humanity and reason:
Colorado Amendment 48: Human Life from Moment of Conception:
No 1,466,712 73%
Yes 547,519 27%
87% precincts reporting
Michigan Proposition 2: Allow Stem Cell Research:
Yes 2,508,782 53%
No 2,257,355 47%
99% precincts reporting
South Dakota Initiative 11: Abortion Limits:
No 206,478 55%
Yes 167,518 45%
100% precincts reporting
Washington Initiative 1000: Allow Doctor-Assisted Suicide:
Yes 937,263 59%
No 658,717 41%
55% precincts reporting (okay, this one has a way to go, but it is the projected winner on CNN)
Love ya PZ, but you really ought to lighten up. There will always be problems, but how are you going to energize yourself to deal with them if you don't stop to celebrate your victories when you've got 'em? Savor the moment, dance your a** off, and then get back to work! This is a great day in America; I'm feeling pride in my country and love for my fellow citizens, and no one's gonna take that away from me!
So it looks like the final result is going to be :
Obama 364 EV
McCain 173 EV
Obama 52.4% = + 6%
McCain 46.4%
(NC hasn't been called yet, but Obama is leading by 12,000 and only the prov. ballots are remaining which should go democrats in majority)
Actually we're impressed that you can actually use a keyboard. So how many other monkeys are in the room with you and how long have you been there?
After Obama was announced president, a flicker of light lit the darkness. People would wake up the next day, and the world would still be a horrible place, and the problems humanity faced wouldn't evaporate. Yet, while dim, the light could be nurtured until one day, it'd be a raging wildfire
"I doubt he could have gotten elected if he had proposed anything the slightest bit radical." - Cheezits
Wrong, I think: the financial crash pretty much guaranteed the Dems would win the Presidency, short of complete incompetence. The residual disadvantage due to white racism was cancelled out by Obama's political brilliance, but without the crash, he might well have lost; after it, a video of him smoking crack and abusing puppies with Osama bin Laden might have changed the result, but nothing much less than that.
Salience is golden!
Not to get too technical, but that's not the Bradley Effect. Plain racism, accurately polled, is not the Bradley Effect, Rather, it arises when people tell pollsters that will vote for an African-American, but on election day don't. In other words, the Bradley Effect is about the gap between polling and actual votes, and the concern was that it would overestimate Obama's chances in the election. As it turns out, the polls were pretty much accurate. There was no Bradley Effect.
It's likely Prop. 8 will be overturned under the equal protection clause.. that being said, it shouldn't have gotten to this point. If anything, this actually shows the Bradley Effect is alive and well. Polls up until the day prior to the election showed Prop 8 going down to defeat by 5 percentage points. Even taking the margin of error into account, that is a swing of at least six percentage points from voters saying what they think they "should" say (polls) versus reality (votes).
I am quite disappointed with my university. After the results came in, some people were celebrating holding up Obama posters and what-not then a small mob of people carrying flaming, yes flaming, sticks attacked them. The only relieving thing was that they did in fact get arrested.
"he hasn't promised any strong change in Iraq,"
He's promised an orderly withdrawal.
That seems like a strong change.
I know Bush promised the same thing, but he never meant it.
Yes, religiosity is a "prerequisite" for higher office in the US - at least for the highest office. And yes, the passage of Prop 8 in CA is a blight on an otherwise good day.
Neither Saxby Chambliss nor Norm Coleman has won yet. Chambliss faces a run-off while Coleman faces a recount. Yes, both are to be favored, but come on!
Your post reads like you're trying to find things to feel bad about.
Well, I missed the final pop vote margin (I predicted 10% or more) but I did go right on the electoral votes. I was touting an over/under of 340 - 350, and I always said I'd take the over.
Regarding Prop 8:
I have always been under the impression that MARRIAGE is the secular contract honored by the state and that the WEDDING was the religious ceremony giving the union the whole blessings of god(s) thing. If I am correct then the marriage of anyone to anyone should not affect the religious nutbags at all since is is at it's very core areligious.
That said I'm probably wrong, I mean how could so many be so petty over something that should be as controversial as registering an automobile?
Natalie
Well the IMF and World Bank are themselves NGOs. Ever heard of a country named Rhodesia? It used to be quite prosperous, perhaps one of the most prosperous countries of Colonial Africa. It's now named Zimbabwe. The Whitsun foundation funded by the WB took the angle of credit expansion in the midst of apartheid as a way of enabling devellopement, with the typical faith in the balance of the market. This resulted in uneven overexpansion with which local banks and financial institutions were unable to cope. Subsequent corrections always lead to unsurmountable debt and unfair sanctions to a country unable to pay. Zimbabwe now enjoys nearly zero growth and astronomical inflation, not to mention a horrible human rights record.
This pattern and variants of it are repeated all over the third world. Many countries are still today help "captive" of ill planned policies and unfair sanctions that date back to the era of decolonization. Their debts are unpayable and it is pure fantasy to believe they will be helped by charity.
Those "flaming sticks" are called torches. In the old days, they would have been carrying pitchforks as well.
That is progress for you.
Which university was that?
I was on the phone long distance to a friend of mine in Baltimore, and he said there was a woman, incidentally black, dancing up and down W. Lombard St. at 12:30 AM shouting, "PRESIDENT OBAMA! WE GOT PRESIDENT OBAMA! YOU HEAR ME?! OBAMA! WE GOT OBAMA!" for about an hour. Normally if someone is carrying on in his neighbourhood at that hour, he calls the cops (sometimes that does a fat lot of good, but what else can you do?). This time, he said he wanted to go down and join her. Another neighbour opened his window and yelled right along with her.
As disappointed as I am about Prop 8 and the rest of it, at least there's something to drink in that glass.
Does not compute.
Not logical.
How? Do you have any idea of how expensive the Iraq war is?
How is that supposed to work?
Depends on how much money you make.
Yes, because (barring killfile) we'll have to endure your whining.
What about Obama, the dread socialist, raising the minimum wage to European levels? Ever thought about that possibility? You are inconsistent.
You are in denial. Currently, Americans pay more for their healthcare than people anywhere else, and get less for it. That's because health insurance is a for-profit business in America.
Surpassing Captain Unelected's illegal wiretapping, illegal renditions to Jordan for torture, and so on? How's that supposed to be feasible?
You're saying that like it's a bad thing. :-|
He's against using the word marriage, that's all. That's hypocritical, in fact. :-) And a fairly widespread conservative attitude nowadays, shared e. g. by Kerry and by Austria's conservative party.
The hubris of the victor is amusing, to say the least.
For precisely the same reasons that you outlined above, I voted for Ralph Nader.
This is the fundamental problem with voting for the "lesser of two evils" (or the "evil of two lessers", I suppose) -- when our decisions are guided by fear (via the media terrorists), we are not thinking rationally or making the optimal choice. I'm not saying that Ralph Nader is specifically the panacea -- but our vote franchise should be based on AFFIRMATIVE desires, *NOT* based on AVERSION.
That said, I think Obama is a good change for America. I've been telling my co-workers that America is so deep in the shitter right now that there isn't a whole lot he can do to screw it up worse; The bar is set pretty low. If he can reverse Bush 43's damage, I'd say that's a victory for our nation.
A ray of hope for future sanity in California: according to CNN exit polling, people under 30 were strongly against it.
This only goes to show that not everyone can become president. Obama is an immensely talented and intellingent man who got lucky and worked hard. He is a lawyer from harvard and made it to the senate. Hardly your average person, white or black.
Oooooookaaaayyyyy.... Are you saying somehow that you want an average person as president, someone who is not immensely talented and intelligent? We just had one of those, and it didn't work out so well. The point is that this country is so fucking bigoted that never once has a non-white man, no matter how intelligent and talented, been elected president. Never. And we still have a long way to go - we also haven't had a gay person, or a native American, or god forbid a WOMAN, but it's still a big barrier to break.
So the Not-So-Nazi wing of the Republicrat Party won. Woohoo. Go lesser of two evils. But at least Obama will support our right to marry trees. (Know any hor Bonzais, I've always been paretial to Asians)
The thing that might have put Osame over McSame was the Dems letting the Catholic and Evangelical vote know they hate us as much as the right. It had a lot to do with it but the main reason is America just wants to have a beer with him. (An ability to speak in complete sentences, opposed to the other 3 major party candidates, did help winning over those damn elites.)
For those who think PZ is smoking something (and what's wrong with that?) for calling Barry a centerist moderate Democrat consider this:
Who is Osame's first appointment. Rahm Emanuel.
Who voted for the war in Iraq every chance he could??
Who voted for renewing the misnomered Patriot Act?
Who voted for FISA and unlimited surveillance?
Who vows to expand the unconstitutional Faith Based Initiative boondoggle so that his wacks like Rev Wright, D Paul Montiero and Leah Daughtry can get their unfair share of the loot??
When it comes to Supreme Court nominations (as many as 5 roumered to be sick, dying or just wanting to get the hellout of Dodge), don't expect less that a liberal who'll support abortion rights but who will side with Scalia, Alito, Roberts and Thomas on seperation issues (Here in Michigan, Jennifer Granholm is a rumoured choice).
But there is some good news.
Proposotions 1 (Medical Marijuana) and 2 (Stem Cell Research) win.
Science is still legal in Michigan.
If he can reverse Bush 43's damage, I'd say that's a victory for our nation.
Don't hold your breath. Remember, Obama voted for the bailout, too.
-jcr
Baptist Minister: You atheists are evil tools of Satan!
Atheist: No we're not.
Baptist Minister: Oh...would you like to make out with my daughter?
PZ and crew
These scenes only happen in your head.
In the real world, this is a big victory.
Let's try to be a little more pleased, then get back to work.
So the Not-So-Nazi wing of the Republicrat Party won. Woohoo. Go lesser of two evils. But at least Obama will support our right to marry trees. (Know any hot Bonzais, I've always been paretial to Asians)
The thing that might have put Osame over McSame was the Dems letting the Catholic and Evangelical vote know they hate us as much as the right. It had a lot to do with it but the main reason is America just wants to have a beer with him. (An ability to speak in complete sentences, opposed to the other 3 major party candidates, did help winning over those damn elites.)
For those who think PZ is smoking something (and what's wrong with that?) for calling Barry a centerist moderate Democrat consider this:
Who is Osame's first appointment. Rahm Emanuel.
Who voted for the war in Iraq every chance he could??
Who voted for renewing the misnomered Patriot Act?
Who voted for FISA and unlimited surveillance?
Who vows to expand the unconstitutional Faith Based Initiative boondoggle so that his wacks like Rev Wright, D Paul Montiero and Leah Daughtry can get their unfair share of the loot??
When it comes to Supreme Court nominations (as many as 5 roumered to be sick, dying or just wanting to get the hellout of Dodge), don't expect less that a liberal who'll support abortion rights but who will side with Scalia, Alito, Roberts and Thomas on seperation issues (Here in Michigan, Jennifer Granholm is a rumoured choice).
But there is some good news.
Proposotions 1 (Medical Marijuana) and 2 (Stem Cell Research) win.
Science is still legal in Michigan.
"You are in denial. Currently, Americans pay more for their healthcare than people anywhere else, and get less for it. That's because health insurance is a for-profit business in America."
We pay more per capita for government run medicare and medicaid than other countries pay for their government run programs, too. Placing the entire blame on for-profit health insurance is ridiculous.
I'm calling out the repeated claim that "In Europe Obama would be a conservative". His programme (mostly private healthcare, his tax plan...) is somewhat centre-right by European standards but his character and instincts just don't seem to be those of any conservative (or Christian democrat or Gaulist) party I've seen.
No democratic leader is going to take a positions that are unacceptable to their electorate so he has positions within the US mainstream. But his intention seems to be to lead the US towards more collective action to promote material welfare and less of the state getting in people's faces about personal morality.
If instead of Chicago, Obama had gone from college to orgnaising communities in Brixton, I suspect he would be on soft-left/Compass wing of the Labour party.
(Similarly, as I read in a comment here once before, if you shifted Bill Clinton to any country he would take a position as a centrist. A certain kind of mind sees a public debate between baby eaters and anti-baby eaters and concludes that strictly licencing baby eating is the only reasonable policy)
@276: I'm no fan of the IMF, but your ideas about Zimbabwe are missing some important factors. The expropriation of all that farmland, for example. Mugabe. Claiming that it's all down to local banks not being able to deal with credit expansion... that's a tad blinkered.
Obviously not, I am saying that american society seems to be based on many mythological considerations regarding the economy and your particularly undemocratic form of democracy. If there weren't such reverence to the founding fathers, the constitution and this teleological view of history and progress maybe you wouldn't be so overwhelmed by electing a black man.
An average joe couldn't become president, although bar the wealthy upbringing of Bush, he does seem to be your typical conservative Jock.
Let's put it this way, there is a massive filtering system and no one poor ever seems to be a politician.
PZ,
What I really don't like with this post, what makes me so angry, is that it kind of belitttles Obama's victory. Ah, afterall, the US is a centre-right country, and Obama is just one of them, no matter what the results.
So, No, I'm sorry, the USA has been fucked by extremely nasty people, and that is one thing you should never put on the same level, so today you should be really glad that Obama has been elected and that sombre page of your history has been turned.
I'll leave you with these fine words from Nobel laureate Paul Krugman from his blog today, just to put things in perspective, and I don't think for him, the glass is half empty :
I'm personally overjoyed by Obama's victory. I do not expect radical change from an Obama administration. The current realities of presidential politics in the U.S. prevent it, and Obama himself is far from radical. But I do expect some very important and very positive changes.
First, we've elected a president who thinks and reflects, who has considerable experience traveling and living outside the First World, and who seems to be eager to put out fires instead of pouring gas on them. This is in major contrast to our outgoing President, who has behaved for eight years like an arrogant, willfully ignorant bully. (Note my extreme restraint in the use of "behaved ... like" instead of "is.") Sarah Palin may have rambled on about how "you can't blink," but in both domestic and foreign matters, I want a president who, when faced with a crisis, thinks first and then acts. Obama at least projects the capability of doing both, and in the correct order, whereas Bush had three primary crisis modes -- deer in headlights, cartoon ostrich with head in sand, and full-bore yammering Yosemite Sam.
Second, the U.S. President is the head of state as well as the head of government, and that means a lot more than just sipping tea with royalty and prime ministers. To the rest of the world, Obama will be the public face of the U.S. for at least four years. Bush's face was that of the crazy brother-in-law with the unpredictable temper and the giant pickup truck full of shotguns. Obama's presence will actually be complex and thoughtful. (Yes, I know it's not difficult to be more complex and thoughtful than George W. Bush. But this isn't faint praise. It's optimism towards a damned good start.)
#289
Point taken.
But the debt factor is not isolated to zimbabwe and is the chief factor in many other countries.
I don't think so. That was the point of "The Defense of Marriage Act". It allows states to not recognize marriages from other states if that marriage is not legal in its own state. It seems to me that it violates the equal protection clause, but I don't think it has been tested for its constitutionality.
I am so very disappointed about Prop 8. :( What can't we just let people be happy. I remember all the newly married gay couples on tv these last several months and I was giddy and teary for them like I was on my own wedding day. I do blame religion for this. More misery making, I think misery is their chief product.
oops I meant WHY can't we just let people be happy?
California can have a legalise-gay-marriage proposition on the 2010 election, can't they?- that would override this regressive one.
Yes. Prop 8 amended the state constitution, so it can be amended again, just like the repeal of Prohibition at the national level.
And it wouldn't legalize gay marriage so much as wouldn't not allow it. I think that sentence made sense. :-) The reason the state supreme court overturned the last ban was that it was just a law (or statute). That was the reason they took it to amending the constitution level in the first place.
I *think* there's also a chance of a challenge in the SCOTUS using equal protection at the federal level, but the messages from the so called experts have been confusing on this so far.
The irony is that Obama might have caused Prop 8 to pass as the Black and Hispanic communities came out for him, but also were heavily Pro-8.
One step at a time, dude.
Overnight, the glass has gone from three-quarters empty to two-thirds full.
Approximately.
Negentropyeater: Good use of Krugman.
Gave, the comment you responded to referenced NGOs that provide health care, sex education, and birth control. Last I checked, IMF and Worldbank don't work in those areas, so how in the world if your (still uncited) rant even remotely relevant?
November 5th is Guy Fawkes Day in the UK. (He tried to blow up Parliament.)
I knew that! I read V For Vendetta. :-)
And people say graphic novels have no redeeming value!
Not Catholic enough, yeah, you're right :-)
You mean Southern Rhodesia. Northern Rhodesia is now Zambia.
And if you wish yet a little harder, then maybe the positions of head of state and head of government will be separated, causing the two-party system to go away. <vehement nodding>
@ Quiet_Desperation # 297
And the irony within the irony is that the Black and Hispanic communities who insist upon worshiping that sandy-haired Jay-zus with the blue eyes and fair skin apparently *forgot* that it wasn't too long ago that they would not be permitted, by law, to marry a "white" person.
And apparently I'm trying to compete with the Rev for that KOT title... gah.
"This only goes to show that not everyone can become president. Obama is an immensely talented and intellingent man who got lucky and worked hard. He is a lawyer from harvard and made it to the senate. Hardly your average person, white or black.
Oooooookaaaayyyyy.... Are you saying somehow that you want an average person as president, someone who is not immensely talented and intelligent? We just had one of those, and it didn't work out so well. The point is that this country is so fucking bigoted that never once has a non-white man, no matter how intelligent and talented, been elected president. Never. And we still have a long way to go - we also haven't had a gay person, or a native American, or god forbid a WOMAN, but it's still a big barrier to break."
Not everyone should become president.
Also, I stated in Ed Brayton's blog that the average IQ of this country is in the double digits. Perhaps we ought to offer tax cuts to people in exchange for their privilege of reproducing.
What I mean is the only test that an individual should be given for that sort of responsibility is an IQ test and a requirement to have a college education.
@ catta #101
Obama wants to expand on Bush's faith-based initiatives
negentropyeater,
Dunno about Kerry, but I've always thought just the opposite re: Obama and Hillary Clinton. Clinton seems to include her conservative planks for electability; Obama seems to actually believe his, holding to them more consistently and arguing for them more forcefully.
Of the three Democratic primary leaders, I thought Edwards was distinctly more liberal, followed by Clinton and Obama a hair behind her. With Kucinich twirling the baton up ahead in the distance somewhere.
But I'll be delighted if Obama proves me wrong. Or if someone can point to evidence as to why I'm already wrong.
Cite evidence.
At least Obama admitted in public he has smoked marijuana. Why, he even inhaled! Now my dear tetrahydrocannabinol molecules, do your work, go and do your work... perform your sweet hippie magic and make this world a better place..
Americans pay more for their healthcare than people anywhere else, and get less for it.
You correctly identify the symptom,
That's because health insurance is a for-profit business in America
But you misdiagnose the cause.
It's a for-profit business in a lot of other countries too, and it's available at much lower cost where local governments leave it up to the market (as in Thailand, for example). That's why the phenomenon of medical tourism has appeared.
-jcr
I'm certainly not feeling euphoria, but I have a feeling of guarded optimism. The Obama victory hasn't healed the nation, but it has stopped the arterial bleeding. Now, as the man himself said, it's up to US to roll up our sleeves and get crackin' to heal the body politic. We need to ride herd on President Barack Hussein Obama (doesn't it feel good to say that now, rubbing the freepers' noses in it?) and ensure that he hews to a Progressive course. He seems to be humble, and to realize that he works for us, which is a great change from Dubya. Plus, the schadenfreude is pretty delicious.
Now that the election's over and we have a reasonable Democratic President-Elect, I'm planning on sending Scalia, Thomas, Alito, and Roberts a cheesecake every week.
obama isn't a centrist. he's way left (and i think that's a good thing). his message is "compromise" though, and that's how he ran his campaign. but expect left of center executive decisions.
#286 teammarty is more correct than I'd care to stomach... "change" is as much about how we each live our everyday lives as who wins a national popularity contest. Yes, some promising things about BO, but it would be stupid to not hold him accountable, use a great deal of skepticism when watching his future presidency, and not be afraid to call BULLSHIT when necessary. As for raining on parades.... sometimes parades are more tolerable when you're not sitting in scorching 95degree sunlight... nothing wrong with ppl able to offer some cloud cover Pragmaticism... which is different than pessimism.
Headline:
Uh oh, they're going to show him the unimaginable horror of what's actually inside Pandora's Box. This is when he'll say, "Wait a fucking minute! This is the real shit I have to deal with? Jeeeeesus. Ummm... is it, uh... too late to back out now?"
Prop 8's margin is 40,000 votes with 3-4 million absentees still to be counted. I'm not giving up hope yet, and at least if it does pass, it looks to do so by a smaller margin than last time.
Baby steps =/
>> Obama is a conservative/centrist Democrat
LOL!
Speaking of baby steps, the one consolation I take from the Prop 8 vote is that I feel that in a generation, or most likely even less, this shit will turn around. As the teenagers and children of today grow into adulthood and the crotchedy old fossils die out, this shit will turn around. It's obvious to anyone with eyes that the theocrats are losing this culture war slowly but surely.
Then let me add another cause: the US government doesn't negotiate prices with pharma companies. In other words, it doesn't represent the voters' interests...
Isn't that simply an issue of supply and demand? As in, Thais simply can't afford to pay as much as Americans, and at the same time medical care is cheaper because salaries and the costs of living are cheaper, too?
Because that's a phenomenon you also get between countries where the state is the only health insurer. All of eastern Austria goes to Hungary for what is expensive dentistry in Austria.
What should really be used to find out how much healthcare "really" costs in Thailand is purchasing power, not how many baht you'll get for a dollar. I don't suppose anyone has numbers about that at hand?
B-)
Read the whole thread before commenting.
kyle@312: "...expect left of center executive decisions."
WTF does that mean? What the hell is that "right" and "left" of "center" supposed to be all about?
The shear LUNACY of that set of conceptual measuring stick is breataking. The ridiculous ASSUMPTIONS involved are lunatic: everybody who harbors conservative values cannot harbor some liberal or progressive or other views (WRONG!) is a republican (WRONG!) and is therefore on the "right" (WRONG!). Conversely, everybody who harbors liberal values cannot harbor conservative views (WRONG!), is a democrat (WRONG!) and is therefore a "leftist" (WRONG!).
Do you IDIOTS have ANY IDEA how STUPID you look and sound every time you punch those pre-crafted buttons from dichotomy hell, like laboratory rhesus monkeys wired to reward themselves with a buzz current into the pleasure-centers of their brains whenever they push the "right" button?
You are a SLAVE.
Get the fuck off it already. It's long since gotten unendurably tedious. Now it's just plain obnoxious.
Grow up, read a little, go out and meet and learn about the great big wide and wonderful world of human beings, each individual of which is sports a unique mind, and each has always had the capacity to hold more modes of conviction and gloriously incompatible beliefs then you ever gave them respect and credit for with your incessantly swinish pigeon-holing.
Many pardons. I was angry and inadvertantly posted before proofing. My apologies. Here's the intended rant:
--
kyle@312: "...expect left of center executive decisions."
WTF does that mean? What the hell is that "right" and "left" of "center" supposed to be all about?
The shear LUNACY derived from that set of conceptual measuring sticks is breathtaking.
The ridiculous ASSUMPTIONS involved are lunatic: everybody who harbors conservative values cannot harbor some liberal or progressive or other views (WRONG!) is a republican (WRONG!) and is therefore on the "right" (WRONG!). Conversely, everybody who harbors liberal values cannot harbor conservative views (WRONG!), is a democrat (WRONG!) and is therefore a "leftist" (WRONG!).
Do you IDIOTS have ANY IDEA how STUPID you look and sound every time you punch those pre-crafted buttons from dichotomy hell, like laboratory rhesus monkeys wired to reward themselves with a buzz current into the pleasure-centers of their brains whenever they push the "right" button?
You are a SLAVE.
Get the fuck off it already. It's long since gotten unendurably tedious. Now it's just plain obnoxious.
Grow up, read a little, go out and meet and learn about the great big wide and wonderful world of human beings, each individual of which sports a unique mind, each of which has always had the capacity to hold more modes of conviction and gloriously incompatible beliefs then you ever gave them respect and credit for with your incessantly swinish pigeon-holing.
#315 (Shar), I'd share your sentements if I didn't know far too many of these younger voters. Unfortunately a large section are religious liberals who seem to find a way to preach for equality for the god-fearing with one hand while denying equal rights for the non-believer with the other. California has become a sneaky conservative state, saying one thing in polls but doing something completely different when the time comes.
Don't get too down on this. We had the same in Britain a few years ago. However bad Tony Blair looks now, his first five years were a MASSIVE improvement on Thatcher and son of Thatcher. Obama looks the same to me. Just remember to stop him getting too full of himself and consider that Blair's worst failure was the one Obama opposed.
California: Where we apparently care more about the rights of chickens than of people.
He also claimed to have some Grateful Dead tunes on his iPod. I mean, he's no Al Gore, but still.
And we still have a long way to go - we also haven't had a gay person ...
Actually, it's quite likely that James Buchanan was gay, although if so it was hardly a matter of public record.
Let's not forget Arizona's Proposition 102, another state constitutional amendment defining marriage as between one man and one woman, which passed. My vote was not enough to keep us from institutionalizing bigotry semi-permanently.
The election was definitely a mixed bag--but then, we've all had to get used to elections that are mostly bad, so when we get one with a significant mix of good, we shouldn't feel too disappointed. Sure Obama isn't really a liberal (much as the far Right wants to make people think he is), but his election is still monumental, and signals--I hope--a significant change in American politics away from the flat-out insanity of the past eight years.
That said, I was very surprised to hear him say that the current economic downturn was the worst of the past century. Did he forget the Depression??
"Obama is a conservative/centrist Democrat"
There will be no more arguments. No more words of refutation.
You are an imbecile and an ignoramus.
Arnosium Upinarum. Is that latin for "pig headed lefty loon?"
ErichA, back to your old trick of being unfunny and unrelevant. Here I had high hopes for you last night.
Well, Nerd. Sorry to disapoint. After reading Post 320, it seemed to jump out of no where.
Take #2
So since you lack the power to refute and argue logically, you resort to a silly ad hominem attack?
Speaking of ad hominem, I saw your blog. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah. Don't tell me -Iron John and Fire in the Belly are your sacred texts.
Of the three Democratic primary leaders, I thought Edwards was distinctly more liberal, followed by Clinton and Obama a hair behind her. With Kucinich twirling the baton up ahead in the distance somewhere. - Anton Mates
I had just the same ordering, so Obama was no better than my 4th choice at the start of the primaries (although I knew Kucinich wouldn't win). By the end I preferred Obama to Clinton, but on grounds of character and electability, not ideology.
David @ #240:
I wouldn't be so hasty with the declarations that someone who tries to use <cite></cite> should use "real HTML," since it is real canonical HTML. =)
Admittedly, it's not the correct HTML for the context, but it is real HTML.
The Third Way theory backed by Clinton and (spit) Blair was rather explicitly based on this Goldilocks golden mean fallacy.
Prop 8 is really pissing me off. A lot. Even though based on turnout estimates reported yesterday, we expect that there are more than 3 million and possibly as many as 4 million absentee and provisional ballots yet to be counted.
There is still a lot of work to be done.
Thor damn it Nerd! You just broke my new sub-atomic Irony Meter. Hope's for Eric Asshole, indeed.
Now I gotta wait for the Tardus to come back to get the thing fixed.
(10 assholes) I'm ahead of Janine!
to expand on how prop 8 works, it's a constitutional amendment, not a law. The whole point is to make gay marriage bans immune from being overturned due to pesky constitutional rules like equal protecton clauses. That's why it's referred to as writing discrimination into the constitution, because it has literally made gays an exception to that equality clause.
I thought Edwards was distinctly more liberal, followed by Clinton and Obama a hair behind her.
Hillary struck me as one who was primarily interested in power at all costs, who had very little to say about what she intended to do with it if she got it. Fluffy the philandering trial lawyer didn't strike me as being in love with any particular ideology, either.
IMHO, the best candidate on the democratic side was Kucinich, but I guess he wasn't pretty enough for TV.
-jcr
(Insert MILF joke here)
To add to the downers, Sally "gays are more dangerous than terrorists" Kern won her election in Oklahoma. :(
Unfortunately, Obama won't get the Presidency until January.
Meanwhile...
I'm stuck in kansas (which is really as bad as it seems), and here we just reelected Kathy Martin- a howling lunatic, and I am really not exaggerating. She openly says that public education should be explicitly christian. (she says that students shouldn't have to leave their values at the doorstep- unless, I guess, their values aren't based on bronze age nomads). Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, and Abraham Lincoln would be rolling over in their graves.
It's even worse because her opponent was insanely qualified. He had something like five graduate degrees in all sorts of stuff (even theology!) and was definitely for reality-based education. But he was one of teh gays and Martin sent stuff to people all over the district saying he would push the "gay agenda," whatever that is. I cannot wait until thirty years from now, when people will look on homophobes the same way they look on racists.
The only advantage of living in Kansas is beating Fred Phelps's grandkids in track meets.
Ooops...linky..
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/04/opinion/04tue1.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
I seriously doubt absentee ballots are gonna make much difference on Prop 8, they will just be in about the same proportion that the votes were, and if they lean somewhat more liberal, it won't be by enough. I'm begging to be proven wrong, please.
Patricia, sorry about your irony meter. I know good working ones are in short supply. EricA was a gentleman for about two posts last night, so I did have high, but realistic, hopes. So when he reverted to form, I wasn't surprised. I'll have to leave a few extra ducats next time I swing past the e-saloon to cover your repair bill.
Or just didn't have any leadership qualities. Out of all the democratic candidates his views were the closest to my own, but he did nothing to inspire. That ability to sell himself as a leader just wasn't there.
@Dan: Yes, another constitutional amendment to the CA constitution can overturn it. Seems rather unlikely, but, there it is.
Unlikely immediately, but not in the long run.
to expand on how prop 8 works, it's a constitutional amendment, not a law. The whole point is to make gay marriage bans immune from being overturned due to pesky constitutional rules like equal protecton clauses. That's why it's referred to as writing discrimination into the constitution, because it has literally made gays an exception to that equality clause.
Wrong. If the SCOTUS were to find that the equal protection clause (which is not an "equality clause") somehow extended to gay marriages, then no state law or constitutional clause could override it -- that's the whole point of the fourteenth amendment -- "No State shall abridge ...".
EricA was a gentleman for about two posts last night
No he wasn't -- reread them.
PZ, which would you rather have? McCain/Palin or a moderate/conservative democrat?
We don't even know how he'll govern. I think the best thing is that regardless this is a defeat for neo-cons. Whether it a victory for progress is yet to be seen.
But we'll all witness it together
Whereas TM was his usual dick-headed self.
TM, EA's initial apology (in two threads even) was like a gentleman. Beyond that, it is up to interpretation as to how fast he reverted. About two can include just one or up to three or four (at least that's what QA and the Agency allows).
Obama wants to expand on Bush's faith-based initiatives
I do wish people would stop with this ignorant mischaracterization.
http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/14328.html
Could be, some of you guys can tell the difference between political rhetoric, and pure hatred and rage.
EA's initial apology (in two threads even) was like a gentleman.
Sigh. You think the word "congratulations" is enough to make something "like a gentleman"? There was no apology. And there's nothing "like a gentleman" about the phrase "Democrat Party", nor about "I hope I was wrong about Obama. We'll see." Suppose someone said that they hope they were wrong that you're a mass murderer and child molester, but they'll see -- feeling good about that?
Could be, some of you guys can tell the difference between political rhetoric, and pure hatred and rage.
Oh, "political rhetoric" is what you call your outrageous lies and smears? It's not "pure hatred and rage" that people have toward you, it's well earned contempt.
You're just jealous because you're such a puny, second rate, dickhead wanna be Eric Asshole.
(11)
One of the things I think fuels the liberal rage is the fact that no one political victory, like the one the Democrats just had, really ends anything.
You guys won this one but the rest of us are not going away.
We'll be back.
Obama is our presdent elect, and when he takes the oath of office, he will be our leader. Untill we can elect someone better we will work with him. But when we think he is wrong, well will oppose him and all that support errent policies .
Sigh, I was trying to be polite and toss EA a bone, in hopes he would go away. Not really surprised that it wasn't working. That would require someone who has good sense to read the handwriting on the wall.
EricA, you started the kerfuffle last night with your failure to leave after you initial remarks, which would have been the polite thing to do. Until you understand your snarks will called out as to truthfulness (versus truthiness) and lack of humor, you will have continued derision here. When PZ finds you as unfunny as the rest of us, you will be banned. I think that is what you really want, so you can brag to your friends. Otherwise, the little snarks will cease.
Hear hear, PZ! The only hope for our sytem of government is for voters to stay skeptical and stay vigilant.
Could be that dried up husk of a mummy Patricia is really TM's "foul mouth parrot.
How he taught that old bird to read and use the keyboard, we many never know.
Time to drape a cloth over her cage.
BTW. TM. Do you really beleive all that raging bullshit you fling?
Eric, still working on your banning. If you don't want personal insults, don't ever give any. I believe that that is an application of the Golden Rule. Bad Xian.
Eric, why are you here? It just seems your entire purpose of existence on this place is to troll liberals.
Eric, I too would like you to justify your continued posting here. I think you are stuck in a mental rut, and you need to think your way out of it.
Kel, NoR,
killfile -- you know you want to.
Well Nerd, Dr. Myers has every right to ban me or TM or any damn body he chooses to.
If he wants to he can change the name of the blog to ANINUS ASINUM FRICAT.
Which is what it might become with out an opposing view point.
But it's up to Dr. Myers.
Look short pants, I have no idea who TM actually is or where he lives, but I got his back in a fight because I admire his sling blade skills. Moron, he slices me just as quickly.
You only dream of being as moist & squidgey as I am, you little pant load. Asshole.
(12)
Eric, bravo, a true godbot dodging of the question. Now answer it, why are you continuing to post here? What is your purpose? I don't think you know why.
Does this "Golden Rull' stuff mean that anybody can insult me, tell me to DIAF,call be a lier. But I can't do the same?
Just checking.
EC is so funny.
Why Nerd, he's here on a crusade to save your hellbound soul!
And really Nerd, you need some serious saving. *pffft*
Hey Emmet, I know where we can dispose of Walton's poker. Eric is the perfect asshole to shove it up.
(13)
No, Eric, you always start the kerfluffle with either a truthiness (lie) snark or an insult. We don't usually start in on people unless they, like your have a history of doing both. So if you didn't Insult people or engage in truthiness (lies), nobody would bother you.
Now, what is your real goal here, and are you really achieving it?
Eric, if you simply offered an opposing viewpoint then there would be no problem. But being an asshat and acting in a highly antagonistic manner is just trolling.
re: #339 (Karey), ammending the California STATE constitution does not override the Equal Protection clause because it derives from the 14th Amendment of the FEDERAL Constitution. Federal law always overrides state law (see Article VI of the Constitution, often known as the "Our Constitution is Bigger Than Your Constitution" Article.
Not to interrupt this little tea party but...
Has anyone started to see the gigantic dog pile on Plain that is happening?
The, what seems like, entire McCain campaign and others are coming out talking about what a disaster Palin was and how much infighting there was in the campaign.
oh and did you know, Palin didn't know Africa is a continent.
I know! Patricia, you are the buss driver on South Park. The one with the rotten teeth.
Nerd, as to why I post here, can you explain why Patricia posts here?
Me neither.
As far as it goes Nerd, I post here because I feel like it.
Maybe that is some form of mental illness.
So you enjoy being an antagonistic asshat just for the sake of it?
Thanks for breaking this up Rev.
Well McCain has to do something to distract from what a lousy candidate he was.
RBDC - Plain? I'll go! I'm so far ahead of Janine in calling Eric an asshole that I can move on for awhile.
(14)
Can't do any better than because you feel like it? What insight. A classic case of denial.
Now, why do you continue to post here? There has to be a better reason.
haha
Palin, but nice turn on a typoed word there anyway.
And more on the dog pile
One of her buddies fired for stirring up trouble in the campaign
more dogpile
Campaign calls todd and sarah
"Wasilla hillbillies looting Neiman Marcus from coast to coast,"
and some of the 150k in clothes that was going to be returned / donated?
missing
If Obama nominates RFK jr. I will be seriously annoyed.
Patricia posts here to enlighten christian fools as to the true content of their fucked up scriptures, and make slutty remarks.
Oh yeah, and beat Janine in a contest for calling you an asshole, asshole.
(16)
and a whole bunch of dog pile
So they picked her.
They didn't vet her well or at all
Now they're showing what scumbags they are by throwing her under the bus even though it is their fault for not knowing any better.
I think it's very telling as to their character.
And if anyone thinks there is even a slight chance of Palin 2012, they've got to be snorting some shit that I want some of. This backlash is surely not just in the McCain campaign. I wonder when Rove comes out and gives her a good shove?
There is the funny (not ha ha) chance that if Ted Stevens gets the boot, which he every well may, the gov can appt whomever she wants to the senate seat. Including herself.
how does senator Palin sound?
We as a nation made the right choice.
Ugh. yes that will suck. RFK jr has proven himself to be a wackjob of some measure with this anti-vaccination stance.
Wait a minute Rev., that was your spelling. Ha, ha! Be careful or I'm gonna start purring at you to name me Queen of Typos over Janine. *wink*
yeah i know
more dog pile
-- McCain himself rarely spoke to Palin during the campaign and aides kept him in the dark about the details of her spending on clothes because they were sure he would be offended. Palin asked to speak along with McCain at his Arizona concession speech but campaign strategist Steve Schmidt vetoed the request.
-- Palin launched her attack on Obama's association with William Ayers, the former Weather Underground bomber, before the campaign had finalized a plan to raise the issue. McCain's advisers were working on a strategy that they hoped to unveil the following week, but McCain had not signed off on it, and top adviser Mark Salter was resisting.
Watch this. I'm gonna sneak one over on Janine... tee, hee, hee...
PATRICIA PROCLAIMS SELF TO BE QUEEN OF TYPHOZ!
Eric, unless you want a modicum of respect from the people who post here, post an argument with your insults.
If you want a modicum of respect, you need to have an argument, I mean.
And yet, her profound ineptitude and lack of native intelligence makes the former impossible. (But not the latter.)
umm, i might be a little behind on history, but why the hell did we want Texas? and WHY did we want the South back? we didn't need them, they needed us! just look into the whole period after that: the North was great, the South was sucking balls in carpetbagging and reconstrustion (Fucking Congress was a bunch of assholes back then, wanted the to pour salt on the South's wounds). They still are just about the Dumbest part of the country, except for California (grinds teeth) because no one here speaks english!! What is Obama gonna do for our shit for brains school system, i would love to know... To bad McCain didn't win though, the Republicans would have been decimated,the party is essentially a schizo religious dickhead from the neck up and a corperate whore for the rest. As it is, the party is pretty much toast. I wish we had good old Teddy around, that would be nice. Good Luck Obama, and may GOP have mercy on your soul, otherwise you might not survive this presidency...
#394 - You are an ass.
Do you wish to challenge me on knowledge of the Scriptures?
Etha Williams is up to it, Owlmirror certainly is.
Et tu? Let's go fool.
As for my slutty remarks. They are slutty. Which takes more wit than you are capable of to appreciate.
I slept (literally) all day after doing election work all day yesterday and partying late into the night, so I confess I haven't read all of the nearly 400 comments here, but as to this:
All the other comments about supermajorities and such aside, the reason I cared about seeing Chambliss lose is the despicable way he won his seat in the first place, with a campaign against true war hero Max Cleland that was so ugly it makes what the Swiftboaters did to Kerry look like a church social. There is no circle of Hell deep enough to contain Saxby Chambliss; his very presence in the U.S. Senate despoils the institution.
That said, Chambliss hasn't won yet (runoff). Neither has Coleman (recount). And though the passage of Prop 8 is a serious bummer, even now it's being challenged in court. I know it's cold comfort to gay couples now, but in the long run gay marriage is a done deal; it's a generational thing. "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice." In the meantime, y'all can come get married in Connecticut, as we voted down a ballot question to have a constitutional convention... backed largely by opponents of gay marriage who had some hash-pipe dream that they could get a gay marriage ban through a Constitutional Convention called and shaped by a legislature with Dem supermajorities in both houses.
Surely there's a great deal more work to be done — when is there not? — but here in CT we had a very good night for the forces of progressive truth and justice, and I believe the nation will look back on Tuesday as a great day... so my glass is considerably more than half full, thank you very much.
Is it just me, or does there seem to be a sudden influx of new trolls? Maybe somebody brought in a few friends for us to have fun with. Trolls......Here Trolls......
Thanks for your hard work Bill.
Our local news geeks are 'rumouring' that John Kerry is pushing hard for Obama to name him Sec. of State. I'm not sure how I feel about that.
Just because Nader is my 1st choice, I wish Obama would ask him to take on the corporations in some post.
I'm worried about Bush's pardons. I'm imagining him employing an army of typists to pound out the pardons he'll grant just before he leaves office.
If pretty enough for TV made the difference, Kucinich would be President-elect right now: Have you seen his wife? A friend of mine met her while canvassing for Edwards in New Hampshire; she's apparently even hotter in person.
I think you're right Nerd, we got trolls stinkin up the place on every thread. The moon isn't full until the 13th, so it must be election fever.
Someone suggested we have a troll orgy on the Solstice, but I think the proper day is Beltane. We may get a guest appearance by Brenda, and maybe PZ will let Kenny run free for one night - just for shits and giggles. I sort of expected Kenny to get loose on Halloween to trick us.
But Bill, do you really think women with short hair are hot?
I guess the bitterness of losing the election to a non-white, non-fascist, non-Ten-Commandments-spouting candidate is causing them try everything to let off steam before their tiny heads explode.
Their frustration is only matched by their ignorance.
Suck it, losers.
I've always wondered whether a president has the power to pardon himself... and if not, whether he'd orchestrate some sort of dance like pardoning Cheney then resigning one day before the end of the term, just so Cheney could pardon him.
Come to think of it, what happens if a president resigns or is incapacitated after the election? Does the VP succeed as a short-term lame duck (as I suspect), or does the president-elect just get inaugurated early (which would make a certain kind of sense, but I doubt it works that way)?
In any case, pardons for major figures in the administration would amount to an admission of the administration's guilt... which might be sufficient from an historical point of view. And BTW, I don't think the prez's pardon power extends to the Hague. Jus' sayin'...
For a supposedly new poster, Peregrinus is strangely obsessed with particular commenters here. Maybe it's Ostiarius. Hold on boy, PZ isn't even out of town yet!
Patricia:
Short hair, long hair, no hair... I just think women are hot. It astounds me that there are any straight women or gay men in the world: I mean, with women around, who'd want to sleep with hairy, smelly boys anyway?
For a supposedly new poster, Peregrinus is strangely obsessed with particular commenters here. Is it O s t i a r i u s? Hold on boy, PZ isn't even out of town yet!
(spaces added to get out of moderation)
err... I like hairy, bearded men. In fact I like em hairy and bristly as course sand paper. The smooth faced fellers always look like boys to me. But that's just me. ;o)
I was being a smart alec about the wife. Her hair looks to be red, elbow length. Mine is Scandinavian blond below the jeans pocket length. *smirk*
Oh Windy, I hope not! He had the hots for me. Is he on other threads too?
Thanks for the heads up.
I've smacked him once.
Yuck.
Maybe he'll get that lovin' feeling for Truth Machine. *snerks*
Ahh, I knew there was some sort of joke I wasn't getting. I am still a bit sleep-deprived. Plus which, I didn't have the salient detail about your hair being even longer than EK's. I'm sure you're mighty hot, too!
Exactly, though I think that's evidenced by the magazine stands. A short stroll through a newsagent shows that most mens magazines have... provocative pictures of women on them. While most womens magazines have... provocative pictures of women on them. If there were a god there's no way he could hate homosexuality because lesbian sex is a thing of divine beauty.
I do agree with everything you say (wait for it...), BUT.
While all of the problems we had on Monday still exist on Wednesday, I believe there is much to be said for the emblematic victory this election gives to millions of American citizens (including myself). I still have the same bills as yesterday. We're still in two wars. Our economy is still tanking faster than a dead fish in the toilet. But the American people have proclaimed loudly that we're ready to begin working to change the roots of these problems, and making that proclamation is the first step.
Our problems won't magically disappear overnight now that we've elected a savior as president; it will be a long, long process. But we've announced we're ready to take that road. I agree wholeheartedly that we mustn't forget that these problems still exist, but I remain hopeful. And without that, nothing ever improves.
You've got to wait at least another 76 days ;)
Which reminds me, now that the election is over, are people going to start talking about Bush again? He's still got 2.5 months in charge and America's got a lot of shit to sort out.
The hair issue within my family is three generations of Old Believers. The married men in my family do not cut their hair or shave. The women do not cut their hair.
My hair is only below my hiny lenght, and not longer because I donated a braid to a local six year old girl so she could have long blonde hair through Locks of Love. The braid was four feet long. I'll brag a bit...she was pretty tickled. *big smile*
It's all bible belting. A hang over from being religious freaks, but pretty harmless. Who cares about being hairy!
I'm amazed that there's such a big gap between when the election's decided and the prez takes office. That really does leave a lot of time for the departing guy to do some serious damage - and, funnily enough, I can't imagine GWB or his party are keen on doing much to help Obama out.
FSM bless you for that! When my daughter was being treated for brain cancer, she got a free wig through — believe it or not! — the Hair Club for Men! She actually didn't end up wearing the wig that much, but having it for special occasions gave her great comfort.
And comfort is no trivial thing when you're fighting for your life.
(BTW, she's fine now: Cancer-free for almost 8 years, and a freshman at Yale!)
Posted by: Eric Atkinson | November 5, 2008 8:57 PM
Nerd, as to why I post here, can you explain why Patricia posts here?
Me neither.
Because every active place needs a slut to add ambiance to the place. And to remind you that you are an asshole.(I am going to stop counting. Patrica QoT is too far ahead.)
Nerd, as to why I post here, can you explain why Patricia posts here?
You haven't quite grasped that "as to why" thing.
Thanks for your hard work Bill.
Ditto. And for consistently offering up well written and well reasoned posts. You get my vote for next OM.
Just because Nader is my 1st choice, I wish Obama would ask him to take on the corporations in some post.
After he just said that Obama can choose whether to be Uncle Sam or Uncle Tom? Ralph lacks perspective, or any other skill needed for a post in Obama's administration.
Posted by: Wowbagger | November 6, 2008 1:13 AM
I'm amazed that there's such a big gap between when the election's decided and the prez takes office. That really does leave a lot of time for the departing guy to do some serious damage - and, funnily enough, I can't imagine GWB or his party are keen on doing much to help Obama out.
It used to be in the middle of March. But with modern transportation and communication, a lot of time was cut from tabulating the results and then traveling to Washington DC. So feel pleased that there is a comparatively short transition time. They could be more tradition bound.
she's apparently even hotter in person.
She is. She's also the bigger brain of that couple. And she decided they were getting married after spending 12 minutes with him in a meeting and then seeing a bust of Gandhi in his office.
Posted by: Eric Atkinson | November 5, 2008
Whereas TM was his usual dick-headed self.
But he usually adds something, even if he is usually a rude bastard. All you add is your stinky asshole.
I've always wondered whether a president has the power to pardon himself.
Yes, except he can't pardon his own (or anyone else's) impeachment. I can say this confidently because ... who is to say he doesn't? There is no exception in the Constitution, and the SCOTUS would never infer one for such a political issue.
Come to think of it, what happens if a president resigns or is incapacitated after the election?
There's nothing special about the period after the election; all the same rules apply in the same way.
Does the VP succeed as a short-term lame duck (as I suspect)
Of course.
or does the president-elect just get inaugurated early (which would make a certain kind of sense, but I doubt it works that way)?
Of course not -- there's no language in the constitution about early inaugurations, or the president-elect being in the order of succession.
even if he is usually a rude bastard
Selective perception. My non-rude occasions don't jump out.
Ha! You are getting defensive! Would you feel better if I said you are sometimes a rude bastard?
I'm amazed that there's such a big gap between when the election's decided and the prez takes office.
It used to be a lot longer:
Ha! You are getting defensive!
Ad hominem. I simply pointed out an error.
Would you feel better if I said you are sometimes a rude bastard?
Yes, I always feel better about the truth.
P.S. "often" would also be acceptable, and would make your point better than "sometimes".
I am having a hard time telling if this is serious, silly or some combination of both.
BTW, she's fine now: Cancer-free for almost 8 years, and a freshman at Yale!
Bless science, that's wonderful to hear.
I'm sure you know the illustrated, large print, abridged Bible your grandmum gave you last year seven ways from Sunday but I can read the Bible without pictures in Greek
I am having a hard time telling if this is serious, silly or some combination of both.
That's part of my devious plan.
Yeah, well, I can read the Bible without pictures at all, let alone ones in Greek.
truth machine (@424):
Thanks. I was fairly sure those were the answers, but didn't have the energy to confirm by looking them up. Or, as the intro to Rachel Maddow's "Ask Dr. Maddow" segment puts it, they were "questions [I was] just too lazy to Google for [my]self!"
@430:
Yah. I always throw in that update whenever I mention her story; otherwise it just bums people out.
Oh Bill , Thank You for your comments about Locks of Love type charities. I have over three feet of braid again to donate. A special child will show up for hair.
It would be really funny if a boy showed up that wanted a beard. My husband, father and brothers have beards that are passed their belts.
You better believe if a boy shows up wanting a beard I'll be hot on the family men to contribute.
you guys all seemn like assholes to me. quit bickceringand yapping like a stack of chiuauas and pomeranians for GOd's sake! And besides is anyone gonna respond to my earlier post?!
#395 guys.
You are an idiot.
Want to challenge me? Lets go fool. Name your scripture.
How about Unicorns and Dragons?
Name it.
I dare you. Let's go. You think you got god? I'll bust your ass, come on.
That answer confirms it! So much for the truth. HA!
Posted by: Peregrinus | November 6, 2008
I'm sure you know the illustrated, large print, abridged Bible your grandmum gave you last year seven ways from Sunday but I can read the Bible without pictures in Greek
I bow to your superior knowledge of bronze age myths. But I will beat in trivia about underground rock of the 80's.
Ha! Queen of Lesbians - that shows what you know. It's cold as hell, so let's just us chickens snuggle up and spoon.
That answer confirms it! So much for the truth. HA!
How dare you laugh at the truth, you @%#@##.
We danced in the streets in Bellingham, WA! I love our little liberal bubble in the world.
Posted by: Rickr0ll | November 6, 2008
you guys all seemn like assholes to me. quit bickceringand yapping like a stack of chiuauas and pomeranians for GOd's sake! And besides is anyone gonna respond to my earlier post?!
Those were questions? I thought it was the semi-coherent rant of a troll.
So sorry if we seem like asses to you. We ragulars are just bantering know, you know, shooting the breeze. And engaging in one of our mutual favorite sports, troll stomping.
Please read what you drooled onto the screen.
umm, i might be a little behind on history, but why the hell did we want Texas? and WHY did we want the South back? we didn't need them, they needed us! just look into the whole period after that: the North was great, the South was sucking balls in carpetbagging and reconstrustion (Fucking Congress was a bunch of assholes back then, wanted the to pour salt on the South's wounds). They still are just about the Dumbest part of the country, except for California (grinds teeth) because no one here speaks english!! What is Obama gonna do for our shit for brains school system, i would love to know... To bad McCain didn't win though, the Republicans would have been decimated,the party is essentially a schizo religious dickhead from the neck up and a corperate whore for the rest. As it is, the party is pretty much toast. I wish we had good old Teddy around, that would be nice. Good Luck Obama, and may GOP have mercy on your soul, otherwise you might not survive this presidency...
Why would anyone want to take the time to figure out what you are going on about. Stomp your tootsies and scream all you want, you got the answer you deserve.
Gawd, The trolls are so lame.
Plus, all the pro-choice ballots won, and medicinal marijuana, stem cell research, and death with dignity.
Makes it easier to catch and stomp them It makes such great whine.
Well, Sara, the news it not so good for my compadres in California. Voting to take away rights? AAAUUUGGGHHHHH!
well, what is the most racist, most politically impotent part of the country? the answer is obvious. what i really want to know is what we're going to do to fix that. specifically, education is The greatest asset to our future, which, if you took the time to read, 3 out of 10 kids drop out. Damn, that's some major stupid.
The party comments were obvious, the crazy religious right wing may be getting clipped after all it has done to damage the party. i just wish people would vote for thier economic interests, instead of merely being pulled along with the buzzword "socialist" it's like we're dumb animals being baited.. that was the general feeling anyway. And i think the progressivism that was eminent in Teddy Roosevelt's time would be monumentally benificial to our country at this pivotal point.
Yeah, it ws pretty trollish. i was too much in the spirit of the comments board, that's all
Sure we have idiots in the south but it is a disservice to yourself and the nearly 40% + of the people (varies by state) that voted for progress here to claim we are all like that.
All the other comments about supermajorities and such aside, the reason I cared about seeing Chambliss lose is the despicable way he won his seat in the first place, with a campaign against true war hero Max Cleland that was so ugly it makes what the Swiftboaters did to Kerry look like a church social.
Ugh. If there's any justice in the world, Chambliss will be tossed out on his ear. The attacks on Max Cleland were sickening. For those who missed it the first time: Chambliss ran attack ads showing Cleland's face juxtaposed with those of Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.
Cleland is a centrist Democrat and decorated veteran who lost both legs and an arm in Vietnam.
I would call Chambliss a douchebag, but it would be an unwarranted insult to obsolete feminine hygiene devices.
i know, that is why i used thw word "most" more important than the current state of affairs though is the question of how it is going to be remedied. do you not agree, reverend?
Janine, yeah i was HIGHLY HIGHLY disappointed about that. :(
although 8 years ago, when a similar bill was proposed 61% of Cali voted it was "man and women only" bullshit, but now it's down to 52% in 8 years!!! imagine what'll be done in the next couple.
i trust it'll happen within my lifetime.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-gaymarriage5-2008nov05,0,154538…
I agree with #94. It would be nice to have an RSS option that solely contained the science. I really have no interest in reading the liberal rhetoric that comes along with it. Fact is the Dems won because they managed to successfully (albeit unfairly) pin the state of the economy on the entire Republican party. This was hardly a mandate for a turn leftward.
Santa, you're a commie!! you always wear red and have a creepie resemblance to Karl Marx, and you distribute gifs to everyone equally! But us conservatives aren't fooled! We know you're a scheme invented by Santa to detract from the very belated birthday worship of God's one and only son!