For the first time ever, my talk at UCF actually had protestors. Here's photographic evidence:
They were just lining the sidewalk at the entrance to the hall where I spoke, silently playing with their rosary beads. We invited them in, but none bothered — they quietly disappeared sometime around the time it started. We also had a couple of security guards sitting in the back of the room, whether to make sure the rowdy atheists didn't do something evil or to protect us from the fierce horde of prayerful Catholics, I don't know.
I'm flattered. Thank you, devout true believers of Florida — you made me feel so special.
More like this
I occasionally put up some of the wackier/more obnoxious e-mail I get from creationists and other deluded True Believers, but I don't want to give the wrong impression—I also get lots of friendly and supportive email. I just don't think any of it is quite as entertaining as the crazy stuff. Anyway…
The Bottleneck Years
by H.E. Taylor
Chapter 32
Table of Contents
Chapter 34
Chapter 33
Jon Visits, January 27, 2056
On Sunday Jon called to say he would be dropping around to visit next week. The Senator was scheduled to hold a series of meetings with Provincial and First Nation leaders. He…
For this month's Scientiae, Candid Engineer has asked for stories about overcoming challenges. ScienceWoman has already contributed an awesome story to the Diversity in Science carnival, but I think it does for Scientiae, too.
What about my own story?
Prior to my current job, my biggest soul-…
Not all of my email consists of metaphorical daggers hurled my way. I actually get a fair amount of praise and comments about how I've won people over to the cause of atheism — I just tend not to post those, because of my awesome modesty and because you all know this stuff, anyway. This one is…
Sweet! You've hit the big time.
Oh, criminy. The one on the end is kneeling.
I guess you should start bringing a box of crackers to munch on in front of them if they show up at another one. ;-)
Wow...didn't they have anything better to do with their time? Do they ever have something better to do? *sigh*
-Erin
They prayed and prayed, but nothing happened. Such is the power of prayer.
Idiots.
It's a small start, not much more than a dozen protesters in the picture, but congratulations, that was probably Florida's largest demonstration this year.
Where's the YouTube video of your speech?
It was very menacing kneeling, though. And those rosaries can be turned into weapons like that.
If this keeps up, you'll have to start asking for money for your talks. I'm also for bring a box of crackers, but hand them out to the protesters.
Dawkins is gonna be green with envy when he hears about this!
Well, you're just lucky they weren't Muslims!!! Your speech would have been bombed and you would have been decapitated live on the internet!!! You just try your stuff with Muslims even once and see how far you get!!! You won't have us boring, peaceful Catholics to kick around anymore!!!
Way cool.
Wear a Shirt depicting Cthulhu next time, so their prayers are channelled directly to the Overlord.
Wait...
They did pray to Cthulhu, didn't they? Otherwise you would certainly have been struck by lightning sent directly from "god". Or at least you should have experienced eczema or something.
It's a start PZed.
We all have faith in your ability to build a substantial base of Psychochrists.
May I suggest scheduling an event in Cincinnati?
You've got a hell of a start down here.
I promise to bake you some cookies.
Squid shaped cookies?
For the first time ever, my talk at UCF actually had protestors.
Behold! The Wrath of Bonnie Cox!
We have people like that. You could see them in the snow last thursday praying for a bus to turn up.
That's when you know you've hit it big. Today Florida, tomorrow the world!
Having a bunch of people silently praying in protest at your presence must be a very strange experience. Were you able to engage them at all? Did any of them explain why they were there?
Personally the picture seems a bit creepy.
Aaah, cookies.
But I promise a huge squid-shaped cake and some people in squid-costumes if you ever went to have a talk somewhere in Germany... Would be soooo neat!
It seems to have been a dignified affair: citizens out exercising their right to assemble peacefully in protest. Best of luck to 'em. I'm not sure what they think it'll achieve or what message they're trying to communicate, but at least they're doing it the right way.
I thought it was funny at first, but I have to admit that I felt a little bit sorry for them. To be so mentally shackled to this patently bizarre cannibal/vampire magic cracker fantasy that you'll kneel in the dewy grass to express your displeasure at someone who doesn't share it seems rather pathetic.
Were any of those people the Dean of the Chapel? (Not that it matters, just curious (a dangerous disease (esp. on the internets (as is using (too) many parentheses))).
No, you don't understand. They were praying for nothing to happen. They kept saying: "Oh, Lord, You are a vengeful God, but please spare this foolish PZ heathen from Your wrath." And God didn't smite PZ! So their prayers were actually heard! Hallelujah!
Get your somewhat-disturbingly-shaped cephalopod- and religious-themed cookie cutters here!:
http://www.kitchengifts.com/NAUTICAL.html
Particularly sad is that none went in to hear the talk even after they were invited. That kind of refusal to expose oneself to different views is depressing.
I'm surprised you weren't splashed with holy water by the rosary club. It would have been a great way for them to demonstrate their own, personal method of research and experimentation to answer the burning question; WIll He Melt?
For a minute there, I thought this was a still from Village of the Damned.
Too bad they didn't accept your invitation, guess they were afraid of the power of logic...
Likely they were disappointed at your lack of horns and pitchfork...
Parcaso #23:
There is no need for research and experimentation. They simply BELIEVE he would melt, but since they're so peaceful and reasonable they just refrained from melting him.
This is so admirable!
Always, always, always encourage the devout to pray. Pray, pray, pray. As long as they're praying they're not preying.
Better that they pray than that they canvas for votes, lobby their legislators, or write letters to newspaper editors.
Pray, pray, pray.
I promise a huge squid-shaped cake and some people in squid-costumes if you ever went to have a talk somewhere in Germany... Would be soooo neat!
Yea! Squid cakes. Yum. yum. Do I really have to wear a custume to partake...? In any case, yummy neat-o!
Oh
er
you mean Pee Zed in Germany.
Yeah, that'd be neat too. Or even here in France.
Man, I wish I could have been at one of these. I thought about arriving late yesterday, but couldn't bring myself to do it. I suppose we'll have to travel to Minnesota someday, or coax you back southward soon.
You didn't even offer them a cracker or two?
SC (#21) great page! I love all the detailed fishy species contrasted with the kindergarten-level "christian fish," the juxtaposition of the Fishing Boat and Ark, The "5-pointed star" (count again...), the cephalopods, and the "tarapin" (I think they mean "tarpon"). Good stuff on multiple levels.
Demonstrations like that actually make me feel sorry for them more than anything.
Although I fully support prayer as their mode of action against things they don't agree with. Sort of like giving a troublesome kid an etch-a-sketch so he'll sit quietly in the corner without bothering anyone.
A little off-topic but if you go look at the bottom of the UCF Catholics' website there is a logo that looks like a toilet to me. Maybe they realize that is where Jesus is ending up a few hours after eating him?
http://www.ccmknights.com/ccmWeb2007/
I'm surprised you weren't splashed with holy water by the rosary club.
If I ever became an atheist evil enough for a genuine holy-waterin' by crazed Catholic protesters, I'd do a Regan and fall to my knees screaming, "It burns! It burns!" They would freak the hell out.
What a fucking waste of time. Those are college students. They should be out drinking and getting laid and seeing music ...oh and studying. Right, and studying.
Thus spake Orlando_Atheist:
Indeed it does, with the lid up! Best laugh I've had all day.
That's cool and creepy at the same time.
I mean... seriously, what's the *real* difference between these people and, say, the Phelps clan? Sure, the latter are more obnoxious and loud-mouthed, but ultimately, what really matters - the brainwashing - is the same. And at least the Phelps clan is just a tiny fringe group of lunatics, whereas these are - I assume - part of a much larger group of lunatics.
Well who can blame them ?
If they were to start listening to the 'voices of educated, intelligent, cogent individuals', rather than the 'voices inside their heads', they might have their opinions changed - and that cannot be allowed !
Get your somewhat-disturbingly-shaped cephalopod- and religious-themed cookie cutters here!
No, no, no, no, no. The proper way to make a squid-shaped cookie is to take a fresh squid, clean it (being careful to preserve the mantle), stuff it with dough, and bake. Scrape off the squid remains, frost/coat as desired, and serve.
Be sure to use rather small squid. The amount of dough needed to stuff a Giant Squid is too large for all but the most dedicated cookie-makers.
Admittedly the arms and tentacles are a bit of a problem with this technique. Liquorice, attached after backing, is reported to work well.
Chocolate-filled squid cookies can be made in a similar manner. Yum!
Don't worry. Those weren't true Christians(tm):
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
Matthew 6:5-8
The words of Jesus himself saying: 1) Don't prey in public and 2) Don't prey repetitions (rosery).
PZ, it's a shame I couldn't attend. I live only a few minutes away.
This is why people keep getting on my case about that license.
I'd have loved to come.
Oops...
I meant "pray" not "prey"...
It was a win-win situation. Both you and the Catholics got some street cred out of the situation.
I like that photo. There's something eerily beautiful about it. Sort of like a present from a very artistic stalker, it's creepy, yet pretty.
This is probably a good way for them to go about it. The rosaries pretty much tell us who they are and why they're there, so the message is sent. Then they behave themselves and pray. Nonviolent, power of faith and all that. The peacefulness of it reflects well on them.
I just have this awful image of the same individuals showing up over and over, until one of the less stable gets frustrated with God's inaction and decides to do something personally... Which is, in reality, no more likely now than it was months ago. Still an uncomfortable thought.
Oh my, what a sad sight. And creepy. Very creepy, especially that girl kneeling at the end - she just tops it all off. Waita go though, PZ. You must feel pretty special!
Thanks! (And thanks to Google for several minutes of pleasantly-perplexing entertainment.)
Aaaaooh! I thought they meant "terrapin," and was straining to see it.
That made my day.
@ThirdMonkey #40
That's what seemed weird about it! It's not a protest, it's performance art!
Also, I've been imagining a fairly classy, respectful show of dissent, but for all I know it was a passive-aggressive sort of thing where people were "playing with their rosaries" the same way a thug slaps a weapon in the palm of his off hand. All menace and implied threat.
You know, "rosary club" that you can actually club people with.
Thus spake SC:
My favourite is the 5 Pt. Star 5" (12th from last).
Sven DiMilo,
Didn't see your #31 before I posted #48. Interesting that we should both zoom in on that particular one.
Bedlam !
I hope all the folks who came to your talk were polite and friendly to the protesters. It looks to me as if they were looking for a 'martyr' situation. Inviting them in was a nice gesture.
Not sure what else they were expecting. A peaceful sort of "I was there to stand against" symbolic protest, ok. The power of their prayers to actually do something? I don't know. I think their fairy-tale expectations of miracles all sit uneasily with their normal understanding of the way things really work.
I wasn't able to attend the Friday talk at UCF, but I did make it to the Saturday talk at Rollins. No protesters, though. One thing PZ talked about was giving his own students a somewhat easy out in the classroom. He tells them on the first day of class that if ever called upon, especially if not paying attention and dozing off, that the best way to respond to the professor is to ask, "but how do you know that?" Of course, PZ linked that into other aspects of his talk concerning religion/creationism.
And then later on PZ talked about masturbation. Yes, I drove an hour to hear him talk about masturbation. (He made a good point, though, as he made some comparisons between religion and how he would like to see religion ideally practiced sometime in the future.) Made me want to ask him "but how do you know that?"
We then went out for dinner and drinks afterward. Unfortunately, the place we wound up at was rather loud and made conversation difficult.
It was really nice to meet you, PZ! Hope you can make it back down here to the Sunshine State sometime.
"Those are college students. They should be out drinking and getting laid..."
Perhaps that is the reason for their prayer, as they heard PZ's followers are heathens and, therefore, easy. 8-)
(humor here, humor here, no attacks please)
No signs or anything? What kind of a protest is that? I thought the whole reason behind staging a protest was to, you know, get some sort of message out there to people who wouldn't otherwise have heard it. Their omnipotent sky wizard should already be aware of their disapproval. Did they even *say* anything?
I wonder if they think they've achieved anything.
Awesome! I grew up in the abysmal shithole that is the suburbs of Orlando. UCF is one of a handful of truly pathetic institutions of higher education in the state of florida. It should be a community college, at best.
Its cool, no doubt, but I'm not sure you've truly arrived until you've been burned in effigy. Where is the angry mob with torches and pitchforks? Oh, wait that's another mad professor, my bad...carry on.
What a lame protest. No weed-soaked hippies. No riot police. No fire hoses. No self-immolation. No bared boobs. What's the world coming to?
No riot you say? It's a laugh riot!
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=laugh%20riot
I'm so jealous, I so want my own anti-me protesters. Sir, I envy you.
Wish I had protestors at my talks :(
You're so lucky PZ, treasure this moment.
I'm with half the people in this thread though, curious what their goal was. The lack of signs really does hurt their ability to Get The Messege Out.
Now that you've had protestors PZ, how long do you suppose before you start getting counter-protestors?
I wonder if they think they've achieved anything.
Betcha they're thinking they got bonus points for heaven !
Loud protestors are normal, just standing there is kinda creepy.
Cool.
That picture is... creepy. Like horror movie (real horror not that Saw torture-porn shit) creepy.
There's also something disturbing about the fact that rather than regularly protesting, they were basically standing there wishing as hard as they can that something happens to you.
Whether it's injury or just that you suddenly decide to convert, the fact that people will silently stand there trying as hard as they can to change you with their mind is disturbing.
Hey! Astro Boy is a Catholic. Who knew?
And piety points for prominent public prayer.
What a pitifully sad sight. Defending themselves from the arch threat of science and reason by fiddling with their jewelry.
IIRC, Jesus hated prominent public prayer outside of the temple.
That picture is... creepy. Like horror movie
That's what I was thinking. Like a scene from an old "Twilight zone" episode.
Maybe word has gotten around that PZ is actually very gracious and totally not violent, and their plan of attack is to "Children of the Corn" him to hellfire . . . Cool!
These guys look like the most passive protesters ever.
They were just lining the sidewalk at the entrance to the hall where I spoke, silently playing with their rosary beads.
I wonder what they were demonstrating against? PZ's love for evolution? His disdain for magical creation? His denial of magic fairies? His disrespect for holy crackers?
Those Catholic demonstrators aren't doing it right. They need signs and they need some chant to endlessly repeat to get their point across to the one or two people who were watching them.
What a pitiful, sad congregation
And is that what they call "demonstration"?
No signs, and no chants,
And they're all wearing pants,
And no sign of a self-immolation!
Loud protestors are normal, just standing there is kinda creepy.
Cool.
I see I'm not the only one who thinks it's "cool." That cracks me up.
By way of contrast...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7770086.stm
Did the protesters say anything about Webster Cook & Benjamin Collard? Did PZ? Did anybody on this thread?
I'll go out on a limb here and say good for them. As a First Amendment true believer [not to be confused with True Believer(tm)], I'm pleased to see a polite, civil protest even though I think they're utterly incorrect. At least they're doing it (i.e., protesting) right.
Everyone is entitled to express their opinion, just as we're equally entitled to disagree.
#56
Whoa there now!!! "...a community college, at best"??? Grrrrr...I teach for the natural sciences department of a community college, and we are vigilant against people trying to teach astrology as science, who want to include horoscopes in the college newsletter, who want to institute an aromatherapy program, who want us to teach creationism in our biology classes...
Well, Cuttle, what were you expecting?
Gnashing of teeth and quick genuflecting?
The power of prayer,
Takes focus and care,
It's a science--all that projecting.
; )
As they were silent, maybe it wasn't a protest. Perhaps they were there to worship you? That would explain the one on her knees. Perhaps they didn't feel worthy enough to enter the same building as you?
:D
Leo @ #44
That was my first thought - it's actually a very nice picture (erm...photographically speaking).
I bet they were very frustrated at not getting an opportunity for self-victimization, though. I'm pretty sure that was the main purpose of this.
I have to say that the protesters helped at least one person watch PZ's lecture.
That person was me.
You see, my sense of direction is lousy ("God is your co-pilot? Well, Moses is my navigator!"), and I couldn't find the COMM building. Then I saw the line of Catholic protesters. I still arrived a few minutes late, after getting lost earlier on the trip --- I ended up on the 528 instead of the 408 --- but still saw most of it. And thoroughly enjoyed both the lecture and the following discussion(s).
Brandon @ #52:
I'm the one that 'took offense' at PZ calling Bill Donohue a "geek".
BobC @ #71:
They were probably upset that PZ distracted everyone from Webster Cook. They would've ostracized him, if it weren't for that meddling professor!
You personally went out and invited them in?
Great job PZ. You are a good person.
I think it is telling that they would not actually come in to hear what PZ was saying. That would require they might have to change their minds about him, about what he is saying, and I guess they don't really want to do that.
I'm with Emmet @18.
Yep, their brains are shackled to an idiotic if occasionally picturesque set of superstitions. But they have the same right to believe what they will, and express those beliefs, as anybody else. They are not threatening anybody or interfering with PZ's speech, they're peacefully registering their disagreement, and fair play to them. To use an analogy that neither the rosary-wielders nor the subjects of the analogy itself would like (and, perhaps, that few people here beside Emmet himself will understand), this is all just orangemen at Rossnowlagh.
This line of protestors really confused me when I walked in.
I actually go to UF and drove down to listen to this speech, so I'm not familiar with the UCF campus. I wandered up to the communications building and I saw this line of protestors, and I thought they were in line for tickets or something like that (my eyesight isn't great, even with my glasses on, so I didn't see their beads). I walked right up to them to ask about tickets, and thats when I realized what they were doing. Suddenly it seemed quite inappropraite to ask if they were waiting to see the speech, so I just awkwardly turned around and walked up to the door.
Great talk though! (and I mean that to PZ, not everyone else who tried to make it their speech. You know who you are).
Next time you see them praying you should pretend you've been struck down by God. Grip your chest and say, "Oh God! I was wrong! I was wrong! The demooons!!! AAAAHH!" Then fall over and play dead for a little while.
Meanwhile, there's a Planned Parenthood in Florida without an angry mob around it.
How pathetic they look, praying to their imaginary god to smite PZ inside, and yet nothing happens, and not one of them will even think or say that something is wrong here when our god does not respond to our insane prayers. How can this not be considered abject insanity? It is so blatant but never obvious to a mind renedered insane by religion. I can only say that it was a good thing that I was not there to witness such a scene of gross derangement.
Well, PZ, I'm with Emmett above. The scene struck me as more sad than funny.
Nice gesture, though, inviting them in.
That is just freaking awesome, though of course it's pathetic too. You're in college for a reason. Go STUDY, people! Go study, like, biology, or something. Please. You need it. I know you do. Some of your professors are surely going to receive requests for extensions because you were out protesting that an atheist has the gall to speak in front of people.
Ugh.
What were they doing out there, casting spells?
I'm with post #67 - I'm actually impressed and pleased they were polite and orderly. That's the way dissent should be expressed - with civil discourse instead of yelling and physical threats.
#5 Missus Gumby said: "They prayed and prayed, but nothing happened. Such is the power of prayer."
I don't know. Seems they kind of overprayed a few months ago for the price of gasoline to go down.
OK, I'll stop now.
What were they praying for? Your death? Your Salvation??!
Or... Were they praying for nuclear weapons?!?! GOD! SAVE US!
I'm afraid I can't go along with this. First, I don't think anyone here has suggested that they are not entitled to the public expression of their beliefs or disagreements, so I'm not sure with whom people are arguing. Second, these people are taking a protest form - still, silent - that has had real power when used in protesting mass human rights violations and brutal regimes and used it to protest the abuse of a fucking cracker, robbing this form of some of its power and dignitas. I don't see this little demonstration as "polite" or "respectful," but as arrogant and (sorry) holier-than-thou. Moreover, they're protesting on behalf, indirectly to be sure, of an institution itself guilty of massive crimes in the past and present (Zar's comment @ #88 shouldn't be ignored). Finally, as I noted above, they were invited in (presumably politely) and declined even to listen to the views of the person they're taking the time to protest. Of course they have every right to stage this little spectacle, just as I have every right to call it conceited and dopey.
I'm astounded that no one's suggested this yet, but really isn't this just your ideal Christmas card PZ?
How sweet, the Catholics are praying for you!
Truly, you are Darwin.
And Happy Christmas!
AnthonyK
I totally agree they have the right to do that protest.
The problem is that some of these folks claim "RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH! RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH" when it comes to their religion and the minute you point out they're silly they claim that you should shut the hell up.
Michelle @ 98
Not much of a protest without their god making an appearence. Of course, their being silly in their insane beliefs only makes their protests all the more pathetic, and no amount of ridicule from us will ever deter them from insane acts. Silly is too mild a description.
Ok, that one hit me.
There's a Planned Parenthood near here that usually has some people with signs parked outside it. They have this scowling manner that makes me see them as passive-aggressive bullies who are just itching for a chance to intimidate some frightened, vulnerable women. That makes me really angry. I'm always tempted to talk to these people, but I don't trust myself not to pick a fight.
Which is probably what they want.
And in the end, not a damn thing was accomplished. Had they gone inside per the invite, they at least might have learned something.
Wasted opportunity, godbots. You are to be pitied. Back to counting your magical beads.
Somnolent Aphid @ 94
Thank you for stopping with that example wrought with all manner of examples and responses just begging to be offered with mundane prattle. Ok, I'll stop now also.
SC @96,
I think the point of people saying "at least they're doing it right" is not to argue against anything that anyone here is saying [it doesn't always have to be an argument :o)], but to draw attention to the contrast between this reasonable and legal protest and the earlier demented frenzy of outrage and craziness in doing things like sending threats of physical harm to PZ and Webster Cooke.
That was certainly the intention of that part of my #18 that was similar to #76.
Larry @ 101
No, they would not have learned anything if they had gone inside to listen to his speech. They would learn nothing from reasonable discourse, just as we would learn nothing from irrational mumbling. A mind closed by religion will not have anything sensible penetrate it. Deranged prayer to an imaginary thing is their only outlet from a dead brain.
Yeah, but when comments like this:
just start appearing, I think it needs to be noted that no one is arguing the opposite. (And this wasn't the full extent of my argument :)).
By the way,
What discourse? They refused the opportunity offered them for civil discourse. And in fact less docile means of expressing dissent are often necessary and valuable (in other situations than this one).
More broadly, the celebration of "politeness" and "civility" in political discourse is too often a weapon against the weak, as far as I'm concerned, and I'm not about to celebrate this arrogant display as "polite."
Holbach
With respect, I think you're giving up on them too easily. We don't know what went through their minds while they were there. I'd be surprised if at least one of them wasn't feeling stupid and wondering what the hell they showed up for.
Just like with any other abusive relationship, it takes time to see it clearly, and to really make themselves believe that they don't deserve it. It may be that if some of them had gone in and listened then months, maybe years later something from that talk would come back to them and they'd be able to use that to break free. A mind is never completely dead until it's, you know, dead.
On the other hand, it's also possible that I still have some youthful naive hope left. ;)
Are you sure they were protesters?
Maybe they were praying to you, PZ?????
Had they accepted the offer to come in and listen to the talk, it would have been evidence that their minds weren't entirely closed, thus suggesting a possibility for them to learn something.
fall to my knees screaming, "It burns! It burns!" They would freak the hell out.
I wonder if they'd freak while you were screaming, or when you stood up and laughed about it a few seconds later?
-jcr
If I remember correctly from my Catholic grammar school brainwashing (I graduated 45 years ago), they use the beads to keep track of each "Hail Mary" prayer they make. The idea is to keep repeating this worthless prayer until they go thru every bead of their rosary. (The string of beads is called a rosary. I'm surprised I remembered that.)
Slight threadjack:
Does anyone else think of football before Catholic prayers when hearing the phrase, "Hail Mary"?
I'm an atheist now and I never was a Catholic, but the football term clearly comes first in my brain, even when talking about something like praying college students.
Most likely the protesters were all talking to themselves, repeating the following prayer until they got bored and left.
Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death.
Amen.
This prayer was the usual punishment after children confessed all the crimes they committed in the preceding month. The worse the crime, the more Hail Mary's they had to pray. We were so brainwashed we actually said the prayers.
I was not the type to get in trouble, but I didn't want to go to confession with nothing to confess, so I would occasionally smack my little brother so I could confess that. Fortunately he's not too mad about it anymore.
I hope you blessed them with the power of reason as you went in.
Every 10th bead is larger or set apart, so that in ritual prayer you can say 10 "Hail Marys" or other Marian prayers and then a Lord's prayer without actually having to count them.
SC @ 96
Emmett @103 pretty much summed up what I would have said. I only wanted to comment on how well the protesters conducted themselves in contrast to the insanity we normally see. The terms "polite" and "civil" were used comparatively.
You have every right to call it conceited, dopey, pathetic or harmful to the dignity of human rights protests. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise, although I see how it could seem that way. As I said, we're entitled to disagree with them and I do disagree with them.
Aside from refusing to listen to PZ's presentation, I don't see how these protesters could be arrogant. Anyone who believes they are right appears arrogant. Isn't "arrogant" the religious crowd's favorite epithet for us?
In case I've muddled my point, here it is again: I'm glad that these protesters weren't violent, abusive or threatening, although that really shouldn't be impressive.
SC @ 108
No, I think if they had gone in it would have been with the act of silent protest. All manner of finding out if what you believe may be wrong is available in books and other media. You don't have to go inside with a mind already set by religion to determine if the speaker can impart any ideas other than your own mindset. Learning is definitely not restricted to venues of speech. Perhaps possible, but not probable.
I think that this form of protest in this situation is arrogant. They don't just think they're right; they think they are acting on behalf of a deity, and don't need to frame their arguments in language but merely to display their spiritual superiority. In this case (again - not every case), this form of protest amounts to a rejection of two-way, reasoned civil debate and the equality that entails. In civil society, it's arrogant to disagree without, y'know, disagreeing. Refusing to listen to the talk just made this conceit all the more evident.
Aside from this, I don't think we really disagree. I was merely adding my observations and opinions of the protest.
You have no way of knowing this, or what else these people have read or exposed themselves to. In any event, they didn't go in (and we can only speculate about the reasons for that, as Leo Tarvi suggests), so this is all purely hypothetical. However, I object to was appears to be a central part of your argument, which is that religious people are beyond reach and incapable of change.
Leo Tarvi @ 106
These are adults with the freedom and wherewithal to stop and think that if their beliefs are inconsistent with rational thought and scientific proof, to determine that perhaps those beliefs should be reasonably investigated and weighed against the overwhelming evidence that does not support irrational beliefs. They are not children anymore, guided by the intractable hand of adults who offer such stultifying nonsense. Have the maturity and presence of mind to finally question this instilled nonsense and start to make sensible decisions to slough off this insane crap. Most of us have done so without one iota of an altered life once religion is abandoned. We can still brush our teeth, start our car, watch TV and all the other things religion has no bearing on. I give up on any person who will not think for themselves and jettison all that mindless crap instilled into them as children. No excuses, as to offer and condone them is just not acceptable in this realistic world.
I have much more respect for the people who came here to express their views, however obnoxiously they did so and however arrogant the content of those views, and to try to defend them in argument. It's much less arrogant, as I see it, to engage with people than to pray at them.
It's much less arrogant, as I see it, to engage with people than to pray at them.
Hee - and I see Emmet was simultaneously making a similar point on another thread. :)
You have no way of knowing this,
Just as I, admittedly, really have no way of knowing that it would constitute evidence of open-mindedness in every case. I was responding to your blanket claim about the lack of possibility of their learning anything, though, so my point stands.
SC @ 116
Yes, that is the central and determinate crux to my argument that religion afflicted people are incapable of change, because they don't want to take that initial step that is incumbent only upon thenselves. There is no pressure from others, and all manner of information is available from all sources, but they have to do it themselves as others have done. Just wake up and drop that irrational crap and finally find out that it was useless baggage that stultified their thinking for all those years.
Oh no, rosary beads and prayers. They have the power to bore people to death. We are screwed.
Holbach, you seem torn between asserting that it is impossible for religious people to change their minds or leave those beliefs behind and calling for them to do just that. Does the fact that many of the atheist commenters here were once religious suggest nothing to you? We can't get inside others' heads and therefore never know where they stand on their path toward or away from reason and reality, so it seems to me we shouldn't dismiss anyone as a lost cause.
Leo Tarvi @ #100:
Have you ever considered escorting some of these vulnerable women past the protesters? Seems like a good way to spend an afternoon or weekend.
(Just to clarify: I'm not trying to accuse anybody of shirking any responsibility. I'm just suggesting something that might do some good and nullify the power these protesters have.)
I was there, and I was disappointed.
I mean, 15 years ago, when I went and saw "The Last Temptation of Christ," there were people outside yelling at me and handing me Chick tracts and whatnot. Friday night at UCF? Walked right in past a line of about 15 human statues. No one said boo.
Kids today. Can't even protest for God right anymore.
I still say that these people should be out getting laid, drinking beer out of a funnel and vomiting on their roommate's school books.
this is college for fuck's sake.
Now if only I could emulate your inspired punz0ring skillz1 :o)
1: Still in awe of "... and I'm just not swallowing it" -- pure genius.
ok buddy
spill the beans on the footnoting
<p style="font-size: xx-small;">1: Still in awe of <em>"... and I'm just not swallowing it"</em> -- pure genius.</p>
Chris (#86)... hi-larious. I actually thought it was a ticket line as well, but mercifully saw other people passing it and entering the building before I got on it.
And your last sentence was 100% dead on. It amazed me how many came to PZ's speaking engagement just to not let PZ get a word in edgewise.
Rev BDC,
Foo<sup>1</sup>
produces
Foo1
and
<p style="font-size: xx-small">1: Bar baz quux</p>
produces:
1: Bar baz quux
What a bunch of losers. Prayer? When has that ever done any good?
Seems this is what happened in LA, too. Would drive me crazy, but he seems to take it in stride.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you. I'm tempted, but will refrain from punning for now, since I enjoy the Rev.'s presence and don't want to drive him away again. (By the way, Rev., I showed some of your recent photos to my sister and one of my friends back home over Thanksgiving, and they were very impressed.)
SC #118 wrote:
Well put. I agree. If they had really wanted to change PZ's mind they would have approached him with their complaint and let him respond. That, of course, carries the risk that what he says might make some sense. I'm glad the protest was peaceful, and I respect that -- but they were playing a role in their own little drama, and PZ Myers is only a flat caricature to them.
I'm far less bothered by those who want to argue against atheism and engage directly with atheists than than by those who roll their eyes, smirk, and quickly change the subject. Both groups hold the position in contempt. But the first approach considers the idea worth discussing, and the people who hold that idea capable of reason. The second approach is simply a cowardly refusal to consider the issue at all, and dismisses the other side with genuine contempt. Honest disagreement, discussion and even argument is more respectful than "well, I will pray for you."
And I think that any theist who comes into Pharyngula gets extra credit, straight off. It is not easy to be outnumbered, to have perhaps a dozen people coming at you with different points they want you to address right now, and many of them hurling insults. I've been there, in Christian forums: keeping calm and responsive to content is not easy.
Thanks!! Went out to talk to a new restaurant about me showing my stuff there.
No not THAT stuff. My photos.
SC @ 122
I'm willing to bet that if you meet those people on that prayer line twenty five years from now, all of them will still be in the grip of insane religion as before. The point is that they reinforce each other in those beliefs and will remain so until one individual takes the initiative to question those insane beliefs separate from the others. I needed no prodding, prompting or persuasion to erase that crap from my life. It seems the only chance for a person to change is by themselves. If they are unwilling to do so then they will remain forever in the grip of insane religion. How long will it take them to come to their seneses? Can and should it be measured in years which suggest that they simply cannot or will not do so in an allotted amount of time? If they do not do so in a reasonable time slot, then the window will remain forever closed to them simply because they have not the fortitude to get up and drop that crap from their lives. So I have no hope or regard that this will be done when the opportunity passes them by. The hell with them.
That's fantastic! Congratulations! I'm sure their patrons will be as entranced as I've been.
Can't help but picture this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AUIVx-KQt4
I'd like to respond simply, "I'll take that bet," but it seems silly to me to think of this in terms of predictions rather than in terms of what I can do to move people toward reason and evidence. I saw a possibility this week, for example, that even the Hamhocks showing up on that long-defunct thread might read one or two of the science posts listed on the left and start to think, and that we should encourage that whenever possible. But then I'm a professor - it's an occupational hazard.
#56, community colleges are, or at least (depending on the school) can be fine institutions. In my area, Long Beach, CA, enrollment is growing and I expect that soon they will be filled to capacity. Years ago, I took a number of first-rate classes at two local CC.
Perhaps you could learn more about them.
#33 LOL
PZ,
Come to San Diego for a talk and we'll supply a ton of Trichoplax Cookies. Mildly irregularly shaped peanut butter cookies should be adequately representational. (cf Pharyngula in the December Seed
PZ, will you be posting the Last Supper photos that were taken? I'd like to go on record as being the one who made the smartass comment starting the whole thing: "You know, for the most irony, we should all be sitting on one side of the table."
That toilet-looking thingie at the ccmknight website (link at #33) is in fact the grail cup. You can see a similar image of the holy dove dropping the holy cracker into the holy grail in the Ace of Cups Tarot card. That gives me an idea for an anti-catholic logo - something similar to the ccmknight logo, but with the grail being replaced by something that was even more toilet-looking, so the message would be unmistakable.
I feel like you know you've made it when you start getting protesters.
*Sigh*... One day...
silkworm @ 141
Looks like a toilet or bidet. There are many possibilities that can render that image into a shit logo or inference to some excretory receptacle for the catholic insanitites. Something like "Recycle your holy shit to annoint the faithful or transsubstantiate it back into cracker production." I wish that moron Donahue would blog on this site; would love to read him rant himself into paroxysm of outraged dementia. What a blood bath it would be if only he had the guts to come on this site! To the recycling commode with you, you freaking insane moron.
Making the host a bit bigger and adding a cistern, or even just a flush-handle or chain, would do the trick.
Glad they were silent and peaceful, although I do wish along with everyone else that they had accepted your gracious invitation. If you do ever find yourself confronted by angry protesters of the Westboro Baptist Church or others like them, I have a suggestion. I recommend that your supporters and/or yourself do what the LGBT community started doing when Fred Phelps began protesting at funerals for AIDS victims. They dress as angels, hold hands, and stand silently right in front of the protesters until it ends. It's proven very effective at moving attention away from the WBC and back to the community they are fighting.
ysubassoon #146 wrote:
PZ Myers and the Pharyngulites "dress as angels and hold hands?" That would indeed be very effective at moving attention away from the protesters and putting the focus elsewhere. If the guy holding the camera doesn't laugh too hard and manages to get a shot, I'd really want to see that moment captured and posted somewhere.
Hmmm..... dress like FSM and offer plates of spaghetti? Dress as squid and offer calamari?
Naw, I still see the photographer LHAO.
Nah what he should have done is for someone to walk out to get a smoke, and to fake a heart attack. Then everyone rush out to try to help him. Throughout the chaos urge the theists to start praying their lil hearts out. And when he fake dies blame the theists for not praying hard enough.
Whenever I see the Catholics protesting outside the Planned Parenthood here, I always step inside and give a donation. It helps remind the good guys that they have support in the community, and I like to let the protesters know that their actions have gone from pointless to counter-productive.
Waitaminute...! I thought Pirate Regalia was the proper holy robe thingies of the FSM worshippers.
Heh.
A fully choreographed pirate swordfight by, say, SCA reenactors in full Pirate Regalia would definitely draw attention away from any protestors.
"One-two! Thrust, slash, parry, what-ho! Pause, mug for camera, and... Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Pause, mug for camera, and... Spin! Ha! Thrust!"
Hmm. Interesting. They did not berate you, nor steal any sign you might have that you are an atheist or despise Christmas. Just kept quiet and prayed for your shriveled prune of a soul.
Yeah. Those Christians are EEEEEVILLLLLLLL!!!!!!
Where's the love?
Yes, we know that those "protesters" were secretly photographing everyone who attended the lecture as they are compiling the lists for the "re-education" camps that will be opened after the theocracy is installed.
Phatty,
PZ has frequently put himself on the record as enjoying Christmas.
Are you lying for Jesus again?
Doesn't that imply that he stopped lying for Jesus at some point? He must have the special ten commandments on audio book where the voice says, loudly, 'thou shalt not bear false witness' then, in a whisper, 'unless you need to when arguing with atheists or those you deem not to be True Christians™.'
For pharynguphat at #153:
Putting aside P.Z.'s soul (or lack thereof) phor a moment, please provide evidence that you possess a soul.
Or anyone does, phor that matter.
You have 10 minutes until I go to bed.
Tick, tock...
@146 "I recommend that your supporters and/or yourself do what the LGBT community started doing when Fred Phelps began protesting at funerals for AIDS victims. They dress as angels, hold hands, and stand silently right in front of the protesters until it ends. It's proven very effective at moving attention away from the WBC and back to the community they are fighting."
And don't forget the funding drives. For every hour that the WBC nuts protest people pledge to give money to a local AIDS charity or the LGBT center. In this case perhaps people should donate to the local Planned Parenthood chapter. (Hey freak on your knees - the more you protest the more morning after pills we pay for!)
Of course these people apparently don't have the staying power of the WBC nuts. Even at $100 per hour they'd barely pay for a years worth of birth control pills.
No answer, phat?
Well, then, I'm off to bed.
They had to run. There was a party down at the C.Y.O. and Warren Cuccurullo and Vinnie Colaiuta were gonna be there.
(Seriously, 150+ comments and I'm the first to make that reference? I'm disappointed in you lot.)
Leave it up to the church to come up with something as useful as a circular abacus
Holbach @120,
I like reading deconversion stories (de-conversion.com is one blog I visit) and I see a fair few atheist/agnostic/deist posters who were devout Christians only a year or two ago.
I think your case might be better made against the godbots who post here than with the generic believer.
Are they praying because of your science or your lack of faith?
Or both?
There's a family planning clinic in the UK town where I live. And if I walk past it in the evening there's sometimes a group of 2-4 oldies praying outside it with rosaries. Usually one of them will be kneeling on the ground too. It is like having an alien civilisation living amongst us because that mindset is just so far from anything I can comprend - and I was brought up a Catholic!!
Hey John, what the heck's up with re-conversion stories? You know atheists rediscovering faith? I mean, that's a scary phenomenon.
RickrOll, strangely enough, I don't know of any reconversion blogs, though I know of a couple of high-profile converts.
What I do know is that it's a tired old trope that evangelists often claim they were atheists. Make of that what you will :)
Well, now that i have resumed haunting the Steps of Nance blog, i have run into someone who claimed to be a "skeptic" for a long period of time, did some soul searching, then came out again an even bigger Friend of Jesus.
It depresses me to see people not follow the logic to the inevitable conclusion, but become wildly distracted by some little detail and remain focused on it. *Sigh*
Its funny how believers look when they do not have the power to kill you!
I've been trying to get people to protest me forever... it's harder than you might think.
I'm jealous :(
Actually, it's not that hard to get people to protest you. All you have to do is set up an organization that's determined to keep known child rapists under wraps instead of turning them into the police, and you'll have protesters outside your building every morni-- oh wait, no, hardly anybody cares about that for some reason.
What were they actually protesting against? The fact that you were there at all?
Ah, and so the cult of PZ began. How does it feel to have worshippers? :)
That display looks to me as though it was more for in-group validation than protesting for a clear set of objectives (eg - the discontinuation of guest speaker invitations in the bio department).
They're probably looking at this page now, feeling satisfied that they've met the requisite quota for persecution. Ressentiment (not to be confused with resentment; Google it) is a powerful driving force behind such movements (although in this case it was more of a twitch than a movement).
Congratulations!
@ 100
Maybe you could make your own cardboard sign, "There is no god" and stand in front of them with it... That would be funny.
Yes, go to Cincinnati. Ken Miller's lecture last week set a record for attendance for the Cincinnati Museum Center's Science Lecture Series. Balance is required.
Did any of them christians blog about it or post a website? I'd like to know what the hell they were doing exactly.
Maybe they were praying to you afterall!? You, who has the power of the TENTACLES
Mmmmmm? PZ messes with their magic crackers. They protest PZ's speech. Since they know has addiction to cephalopods, I'd say it's a case of "Squid pro quo."
@153
So if a group of evil atheists wait outside your church on sunday morning, saying nothing, not stealing crackers but only displaying their disapproval in silence, with a sign of some sort, that would be ok with you ? Good. I know what I'm doing next sunday...
Not so much evil as BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORING and wasting their time.
Hate to pick nits...but if I don't the damn nits just multiply. The word is spelled protesters, with an e.
They must have a very weak god if it is unable to defend itself from a talking professor.
Oh, but wait, what is that? Yes, there, across the walk from the front of the line. Yes, it is them, and not just the 3-in-1 but, all three together; Sun, God-idea, and Spooky-ghost.
Next time, somebody should stand at the end of the line with a T-shirt that says:
I'm with credulous
with the requisite pointing-arrow.
Congrats on the high honor!
A few years back an adult video store opened around the corner. They had huge potted trees around the lot. I noticed a lot of people out front, looking at the pots. It took a few drives past to figure out they were praying. Yes, they were saying words at a building. And they had signs... degrading women, etc.
Holding back my desire to ride past and throw hangers at them, I vowed that next time they were out, I'd put up my own table with a sign informing everyone that their penises were at home with their wives. My wife, a good sport if there ever was one, said she'd sit out with me.
So the praying must have worked, PZ, because I see you are now a devout catholic who has repented his... bwahahaha... Sorry, I couldn't even finish the snark without busting out laughing.