America is kind of a land of thugs, isn't it? Here's the latest sordid story: two Ecuadorian brothers are walking down the street, an SUV full of morons mistakes them for a gay couple, and they jump out and beat one of them to death.
[Jose] Sucuzhanay (suh-KOO-chen-eye) and his brother Romel, 38, were walking arm-in-arm after a night out when a sport utility vehicle pulled up near them at a Brooklyn stoplight, police said.
Witnesses said they heard the men in the car shouting anti-gay and anti-Hispanic slurs at the brothers. The attackers jumped out of the car and smashed a beer bottle over Jose Sucuzhanay's head, hit him in the head with an aluminum baseball bat and kicked him, police said. Romel Sucuzhanay was able to get away; the attackers drove off after he returned and said he had called police, authorities said.
If anyone wants to talk about civilized behavior, this isn't it.
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Yeah, this is disgusting & sickening. We are a very nasty species, some of the time, & especially when in groups.
I hope these assholes get caught & punished.
There are no words appropriate for horrors such as this, so I shall write nonbe. OT, however, you have probably already heard that Illinois is undergoing a reprise of the Washington nativity-atheist sign controversy. (See today's WAPO)
Nonbe was one of my vast collection of typos, but it might be a useful word in some circumstances.
They're weren't trying to kill anyone, they were merely trying to beat the demons out of the men.
No harm, no foul, right?
You can only hope they get caught and spend many hours dropping the soap in the showers with Carlos.
Sadly, the incident took place right here in liberal New York City. It's mostly true, but there are pockets.
This is a horrible story...
But I have to admit, when I read "morons" I thought it said "Mormons". O_o
It is, I suspect, exactly paradigmatic of "civilized" behavior, or at least an aspect of it; howsoever unsavory, it merely reflects the expression of social pressures related to the stresses of pressure for scarce resources.
Inevitable, unfortunately...
I'm not sure what to say about this. It makes my stomach roil. If this can happen in NYC, what chance the flyover states?
If anyone is interested in seeing the film Milk, I highly recommend it. I had an extremely hard time keeping myself composed at the end of the movie; with extreme effort I managed to only cry a little bit. The producers really should have released it prior to the Prop. 8 vote.
I lived in Korea for a time. There, it's not uncommon for men (not gay) to walk arm-in-arm. No, we don't do it that way here, and that's all right. What's not all right is when our ignorance of other cultures leads to this kind of behavior. (Even ignoring that being gay, itself, doesn't warrant this reaction.)
@ mikespeir
I'm doing a teaching stint in Korea myself, and I saw that for the first time the other day. Actually they were holding hands. It just caught me off guard, because the first thought in my head was: Oh shit, if the wrong people see them they'll get their heads smashed in.
It's very telling of our culture that my first thought is that they will get killed for showing that they are very close friends in a public manner. (I exceedingly doubt they are gay, Korea is definitely not very gay friendly.)
I grew up in Arkansas, before you ask.
if only the morons had just thrown shoes.
At least they didn't throw their shoes at them.
Sorry, yes, that was sarcasm, I just spent an hour reading all the comments in the shoe thread and am rather disgusted with some of the commenters there and somehow wound up channelling their collective spirit.
This is... beyond my comprehension. I literally cannot imagine what would make people do something like this. It's only because I intellectually know better that I don't wish the attackers should suffer their own methods, but deep down I can't help but feel differently.
Plenty of other cultures (including some VERY homophobic ones, such as some of the Middle East nations) are suprisingly ok with male affection. Hence the photo where Bush and Abdullah were walking and holding hands.
Of course, here in America, where sex is a big no no, and touching always leads to sex, and we can't stop thinking about sex and how horribly wrong it is (unless in an approved heterosexual marriage and ONLY if you plan on having kids), we have issues.
They were just putting their Christian faith into action. Nothing serves God more than cleansing the world of sodomites.
hehe
these guys are gonna lessons on man-love when they get locked up!
is Cervantes a troll or just a garden variety retard? or both?
I just saw a NOVA program about Chimps and Bonobos. Chimps exhibit the violent side of human nature - Bonobos make love not war. It seems our common ancestor with the Chimps had a bit of both.
Here's a fine short film on Milk by Genni Olson:
http://www.vimeo.com/2206973
Now, what were the Mormons and the Catholics in the US saying about "violent backlashes" resulting from their push for Prop 8?
*sound of chirping crickets*
While it hasn't been confirmed yet, wanna bet that the sickos responsible for this mess are of the far-right Christian persuasion?
moother @16:
is Cervantes a troll or just a garden variety retard? or both?
when did you last take your satire detector in to be calibrated?
They must have just been reading their Leviticus and gotten over-enthusiastic.
SteveM #19, moother #16
It probably wasn't even satire, it could be construed as just a plain serious and arguable opinion, though a bit unfair to me.
I'll tell you who's a "garden-variety retard" -- people who think rape and disability jokes are acceptable on public forums. Could you, uh, think before you type, please?
I agree. This story is very sad, but I hardly think it warrants labeling America a "land of thugs". Certainly there are thuggish people here, but I should think that could be said of any country.
Bill Donohue claims crackergate was a hate crime. Where is he when a real hate crime occurs? But I guess if it's against even a "perceived" homosexual it doesn't warrant the same outrage. Chances are the brothers were also Catholic having arrived from a Latin Amreican country.
Yeesh, Moother and Andyo. If the sarcasm in Cervante's comment wasn't obvious enough, try clicking on his name and reading his blog.
I usually don't comment. I read the post and the comments, I think of something to post but I rarely actually post because I'm lazy.
But this? I *can't* think of anything to say to this mindless brutality.
"...I literally cannot imagine what would make people do something like this. ..."
SUV + Beer + baseball bat + men = violent death
At any rate, this is often the case. Somehow you never hear of a KIA full of latte drinking women armed with croquet mallets beating someone to death.
Sometimes I think the Muslims have the right idea about alcohol.
Noni
"If anyone wants to talk about civilized behavior, this isn't it."
I'm a little shocked this is all you had to say about this article, PZ, since you usually have quite a bit more fire to spit. I'll chalk it up to finals week, I guess.
I've combined all of those and have never beaten anyone to death.
As a matter of fact I haven't beaten anyone period.
Which Republican was it who recently said that gays have no business fighting for civil rights because they haven't been subjected to violence the way other groups have?
"While it hasn't been confirmed yet, wanna bet that the sickos responsible for this mess are of the far-right Christian persuasion?"
I wouldn't bet that. I realize that many far-right folks, late at night, might take their intolerance to an extreme, but I also realize that the far-right christians don't have a monopoly on ignorant scum. It's probably an equal or better chance that the guys who did this were young, beer-ed (or boozed) up, basic dirtballs who figured they'd have a little "fun".
douchebags like the guys in the truck don't recognize political or philosophical boundaries.
That said, I hope they get a chance to share a jail cell with a 500 hundred pound guy nick-named "pepper-spray".
woody,
Definitely not. "The first human who hurled an insult instead of a stone was the founder of civilization." - Freud
Every time we do something like this, we show just how uncivilized we are.
The thing missing from this equation is dehumanization of the out-group, perceived homosexuals in this case. For that you need something like religious dogma.
Please don't blame the beer.
James,
That would be the forever odious Huckabee. I sent him an email through his website asking who cracked his head before he earned the right to get married.
I just saw this item on the news this morning. I find it interesting that no mention was made of the "gay" trigger - two guys walking arm in arm. Instead it is being portrayed as an anti-Latino hate crime.
While the motives may have been mixed (anti-gay and anti-Latino), it is very probable what got them to stop their van was homophobia. The news reporting now seems to me a deliberate effort to shift the focus away from the religious trigger to an economic one (those arrested were white and black). I really don't understand why Churches spewing homophobia aren't treated EXACTLY the same as organizations spewing racial hatred.
But don't forget, what's REALLY going to destroy society is us queers getting married, and so that must be prevented at all costs.
/sarcasm
The unsurprising thing for me was that it got reported, after all, it was two straight brothers that got violently-assaulted ... if it had ACTUALLY been two gay men arm-in-arm ... well, let's just say I wouldn't have expected the nation-wide coverage.
Yeah, I'm a cynical lesbian, why do you ask?
Well, I have been well and truly beaten to the "at least they didn't throw shoes" comments....
Wasn't one of the winger talking heads on about immigrants again around then, too?
wtf?!
well i'm sure perpetrator is going to prison (or death row) for a very long time
and as far as i'm concerned, churches spewing homophobia is the the same as racial hatred, they've just been good at disguising it
The thugs were yelling anti-Hispanic as well as anti-gay slurs at the men while they were beating them.
Ironically, it was reported this morning that the attackers were African-American.
Palin's Murka, brutha...where it's perfectly okay to beat up 'queers'...
People like this are just a nasty festering wound to the human race.
I wouldn't bet that. I realize that many far-right folks, late at night, might take their intolerance to an extreme, but I also realize that the far-right christians don't have a monopoly on ignorant scum.
I'm pretty sure it wasn't from the liberal crowd. O'reilly or Limbaugh crowd maybe? But since it happened in the USA, with alcohol, I'd say Christian.
And Pat Boone says that the people protesting in favour of gay rights are the ones who are one the "unbroken line from jihadist savagery"?
(shamelessly inviting folks to check out my blog for more information about this, including an invitation to make a donation to the Human Rights Campaign in Pat Boone's name)
If you are interested in more information, this situation has been followed closely over at the gay blog, JoeMyGod. There is a posting about the actual event with updates along with the newer postings about the vigils held. Good information to be found there.
Please NOTE: JoeMyGod is a GAY blog run by a very talented man who writes and posts interesting items of his own free will on his own blog. If you have problems with gay people or perhaps your university, school, community college or workplace does; PLEASE DO NOT GO THERE to make trouble. Enough people from rightwing and religious areas of the web troll the place often enough.
Also, you may need to know that you have to watch your back and keep out of trouble, even on the web. That would be a gay man's way of thinking...kinda like being constantly aware that people will give consideration to hurting you if you walk down the street holding hands with another man.
Whoops, block quotes didn't work.
" howsoever unsavory, it merely reflects the expression of social pressures related to the stresses of pressure for scarce resources." (woody)
That's just stupid.. Heterosexual men seem to pose a much greater competitional threat for scarce resources.
A great excuse, no more than that!
"The first human who hurled an insult instead of a stone was the founder of civilization." - Freud
Freud couldn't have been more wrong.. Insults probably outdate humanity by millions of years!!
If I read the article correctly last night, these brothers were on their way home from a CHURCH event. That means that they were almost certainly believers and likely Catholic.
The irony of this would be hilarious if the deed and its outcome weren't so heinous. I hope this opens some eyes to the dangers of homophobia.
I realize that nothing about this horrific story is in any way funny, but this...
...made hot coffee come out of my nose. Are you by any chance a former Monty Python writer, Noni Mausa?
@#6 - that's what I was thinking. I couldn't believe in happened in NY.
I'm afraid this kind of stupidity doesn't just happen over there in the States. A few years ago, a very similar incident happened here in the Highlands of Scotland. Two brothers who hadn't seen each other in years had a reunion in a pub and the locals took exception to them hugging, took them outside and gave them a good beating for (as they thought) being gay.
Made me want to move house and live far away from such intolerance and stupidity, but I guess it could happen anywhere.
Forgive me for my probably ignorance but didn't this happen in NYC also?
There are racist homophobic assholes everywhere (yes I know it was nearly 30 years ago).
probable....
KoT
Brooklyn: where each wave of newcomers gets savagely assaulted by the previous one.
At least they only committed murder, not something truly heinous like shoe-throwing. *eyeroll*
Then should I call it "cultural"? Or why does it regularly happen in the USA but AFAIK never over here?
Xenophobes beating up foreigners happens. Gays being made fun of for being gay happens. Gays being beaten to death... AFAIK not. I'm already surprised at the incident mentioned in comment 50, and Scotland is far away.
I'm the person who just complained about tossing a shoe, so you can imagine what I think about THIS. Ugh... a mob attack... There are so many things wrong with this. The conclusion that two people walking side by side must therefor be sexually active with each other (which they fail to apply to themselves riding along in that thing), the racism, the failure to check their facts, the conclusion that being either gay or hispanic threatens them in any way at all, and the biggest thing, the wantom application of violence for no good reason at all. A baseball bat? A bottle on his head? Either one could have easily killed him. Seriously, do they get their knowledge of how people react to having a bottle smashed on their head from movies?
What violent idiots. Makes me wish there was forcefield technology, so I could openly mock their intelligence and look down on them as dirt while they stupidly throw themselves into the field repeatedly.
"Brooklyn: where each wave of newcomers gets savagely assaulted by the previous one."
I LOL!
But sadly it's really no different than a son who was beaten by his authoritarian father who then turns around and beats his son and so on. They really believe they can beat the living evolution out of you... or kill you if need be.
Wow, I hope this gets tried as a hate crime. These asshats need to go to prison for a long time and, though I have a lot of misgivings about the way that hate crime legislation works, in this case it seems more than appropriate.
Oh, hell. And I live in Brooklyn.
Yes, we beat each successive wave of immigrants here, but it's usually in a playfully and comradely savage way, instead of just a savage way.
So, he (Cervantes) didn't mean what I thought could be an arguable position (though a bit unfair, just a bit)?
Was it sarcasm, or satire?
The way I saw it, was that it could be said as a criticism, from the atheist position. The way moother seemed to have seen it, (hence the "retard" comment), was from a christian justifying it. Like I said, it could easily not have been satire.
Some of the churches share part of the blame. Demonizing a small minority of the society and spewing hate all the time just sets up fertile conditions for Matthew Shepard, Harvey Milk, these guys, type of unprovoked violence.
This would be the Mormon church and the fundies mostly. If these xians and xian offshoots make the world a worse place rather than a better one, what good are they.
In Brooklyn?
Had to keep those faggot fornurs from redefining marriage. Matters not what the reality is.
I'm not, a friend of mine got beaten up a couple of months ago here in gay friendly Barcelona. Middle of the night, isolated street, he looked gay. He survived with minor injuries.
I make sure I don't look gay, either alone or with my boyfriend. I don't want to run the slightest risk of being beaten up. That's "freedom".
This is one of those areas where I'm not what you would call liberal.
These shitbags need to die.
I would prefer that they do so in an incredibly painful manner.
But I'm sure the attackers wished them a Merry Christmas after they beat the shit out of them.
I do hope they all get long, painful prison sentences.
So rape is an acceptable form of punishment for a crime? Sorry, they should be punished, but let's not continue the trend of tacit societal approval of prison rape. Thank you.
I really don't understand this kind of extreme homophobia by heterosexuals. Don't these idiots realize that the more homosexual males there are, the more available heterosexual females there will be? Discouraging homosexuality actually works against the homophobic bigot's own reproductive interests.
Oh but wait. They probably don't accept or understand evolution or evolutionary psychology, do they?
Sorry, NO !
negentropyeater
I'm not asking anyone to agree with me.
I believe the human race would be better off without them.
My opinion, period.
I've seen someone beaten to death, so I may have a different view than most.
Laughing at the assumptions in this thread that the perps are "Far right Christians."
What is your reason-based basis for that assumption?
It is far more likely-given the Brooklyn location-that the perps are African-American Gang-Bangers-as there is little love lost on the streets between Hispanics and Blacks.
@Cliff Hendroval- "The thugs were yelling anti-Hispanic as well as anti-gay slurs...Ironically, it was reported this morning that the attackers were African-American."
I don't find it ironic at all. Here in southern Georgia, there's a very clear hierarchy of racism - the whites look down on the blacks, the blacks look down on the "Mexicans" (which, of course, includes all other Hispanics), and the Hispanics look down on the "Iraqis" (including anyone from anywhere east of Greece who is not clearly oriental - specifically includes those from India, which isn't even Muslim). And it's open season on the gays for EVERYBODY. (Yes, there are exceptions in each group. I try to be one of them.)
One black woman I worked with was utterly flabbergasted when I called her on her blatant racism. At any rate, that the murderers were black when the victims were Hispanic and presented a surface appearance of homosexuality is not shocking to me at all.
ggab,
I'm not asking you to agree with me either ;-)
I think we both agree to avoid for this thread a discussion on the death penalty.
I hope the thugs who did this get the severest punishment.
One aspect (beside the obvious) of this incident which disturbs me is that a "hate crime task force" was activated. Does that mean if I were murdered for no reason at all, it would NOT be a "hate crime?" And would therefore not be illegal? Or not punished as severely?
Properly understood, every violent act like this is a "hate" crime, regardless of the (by definition, irrational) "motives" of the perpetrators. By assigning any additional significance to the nonsensical motives of the thugs, "hate crime" laws tacitly confirm what these violent idiots have been saying all along: that there is some metaphysical significance to some irrelevant characteristic (such as sexual preference or skin color) of individuals.
This is a philosophical victory the evil thugs who commit such crimes could never have won on their own. I'd prefer that the justice system treat every victim equally, and to exact justice in proportion to the severity of the crime, rather than according to the insane ideology of the criminals.
"those from India, which isn't even Muslim"
India may not be predominantly Muslim, but there are plenty of Muslims in India. Ask Salman Rushdie.
@ andyo #60
satire requires setting and here there was none.... cervantes might better have paraphrased thusly: tis the season to be jolly and cleanse the world of sodomites as our forefathers decreed.
@ Interrobang #22
it's the facts of life they need to learn, honey pie.
learning to take all of Bubba's loaf in the shower is an odd lesson to have to be forced to learn but it is not just rape... it's a fact of life... and accepting ethnic minorities walking the streets hand in hand is a fact of life... by not learning this lesson (or probably more
pertinently, because their parents didn't teach them this lesson) these thugs have just enrolled themselves in the University of Life... like these Russians who will have a decade in a penal colony to get to grips with the real facts of life.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7783673.stm
oh, and i do apologise for insulting retards too.
still the saddest story i heard all month and tbh not in the least surprising with people legitimising homo hate after the prop8 failure.
Oh, here we go again.
I'd prefer it if holocausts and gay bashing didn't exist, but since they do, I'm glad for non-Libertarianist hate crime laws which do sometimes make distinctions based on the characteristics of the victims and the perpetrators, and adjust penalties accordingly.
Just should be blind, but it shouldn't be stupid.
This sad incident and others like it remind me of a short german story I read decades ago called "Der Lose", where a whole town beats up and cripples a guy for being too happy and carefree. In the story, he remained happy and carefree after being crippled. (I think the author's name was miller-hauenfels, but I can't find the story online anywhere).
#74
I understand where you're coming from, but imho there is a good reason to treat hate crimes a little differently. Hate crimes don't just hurt one person; they hurt a whole community. If a gay guy is beaten/killed for being gay, that violence is not just aimed at the one guy. It's aimed at everyone gay; it's a message to all gays. It's an attempt to use violence and fear to intimidate a particular group of people. It's a form of terrorism, really.
This reminds me of a news story from early in the Kennedy administration--I think Walter Cronkite reported it. A United Nations staffer, black, was accosted by a pair of thugs who bludgeoned him to the sidewalk. He reported that when he called out for help, one thug told the other "Stop beating him, he isn't an American."
If this can happen in NYC, what chance the flyover states?
Oh, I'm sure the lowly denizens of the "flyover states" will manage to muddle along somehow, and all without help from holier than thou, self absorbed, miserable sacks of human debris like you.
Oops! Looks like the perps were black gang members. Boom goes the white Christian archetype for which folks here were ready to start a witch hunt.
Seriously, if PZ knew they were black bangers and not white Jesus freaks, before posting would he have bothered to post this?
Too bad that we do not have a policital leader, now or in the future, that is willing to take a stand for equality. I guess this will just keep happening until some future leader builds consensus.
"Seriously, if PZ knew they were black bangers and not white Jesus freaks, before posting would he have bothered to post this?"
i think PZ doesn't give a damn who dunnit.... it's the fact that it's done!
negentropyeater
"I think we both agree to avoid for this thread a discussion on the death penalty."
agreed
I'll go back to being liberal now.
WWV
"Seriously, if PZ knew they were black bangers and not white Jesus freaks, before posting would he have bothered to post this?"
You can't be serious.
I missed the part where I accused the thugs of being "jesus freaks". Where is it?
I'm afraid you made a faulty assumption. I did not assume these were middle-class Christians -- they usually perpetrate their outrages by manipulating the law. I figured when I first read it that these were young homophobic men, nothing more.
From the Dead Kennedys' prophetic Night Of The Living Rednecks:
I tutored English to Korean business students in the 1990s and was awkwardly surprised when one guy took my hand as we were walking down the street one afternoon.
I avoided him for days afterward, unsure of how to reject him sensitively, until another teacher, laughing hysterically, let me in on the cultural norms of Korea.
I was relieved, but also a little disappointed to learn I wasn't a gay dream date.
All US hate crimes legislation simply enhances sentences for existing crimes. No hate crime laws in the US make things illegal only in certain circumstances. I can't tell if your questions are serious or rhetorical, but I suggest you either do some basic research or cool it on the strawman arguments.
I like how some of us are assuming that, because the assailants were black, they must be "gangbangers". Way to stereotype!
To BluesBassist @ #74:
That's precisely what it means. Hate crimes are defined as crimes motivated by the perpetrator's prejudices (in this case, anti-Hispanic and anti-gay bias.) If the stereotypical nutjob on the water tower picks you off for no better reason than because you walked into his field of vision, it's not a hate crime. If he shoots you for being $protected_class, it is.
This question makes no sense. The last time I checked, random murder was quite illegal.
If you mean "no added penalty because the murder didn't qualify as a hate crime," then yes, that's what it would mean. I would add that the law already recognizes a number of special circumstances in which murder is punished more severely: examples include killing a law enforcement officer, murder-for-hire, homicide resulting from the commission of certain felonies (here intent to kill isn't always necessary,) multiple murder (killing a number of people sequentially,) mass murder (killing a number of people at once,) and particularly torturous or brutal murders.
With respect, I'd suggest there are three factors you're not considering:
1) Perpetrators of hate crimes are likely to repeat offenses against their targeted group. Increasing their sentence due to the hate component of the offense is partially a protective measure.
2) Hate crimes are a form of intimidation; they are intended to drive outgroups out of society, or at least force them into the closet. Punishing such crimes more harshly sends a message that such intimidation cannot and will not be tolerated in a free and pluralistic society.
3) Hate crimes inflame the community and are likely to cause more hate crimes and retaliatory crimes. As such, the offense is more severe and deserves to be punished with more severity.
America is kind of a land of thugs, isn't it?
Fraid so.
Ably demonstrated by the boys from "Top Gear"
he next morning the presenters faced their final challenge: to drive their cars across Alabama without getting shot. This might sound relatively easy, but before they set off they were allowed to paint slogans on each other's cars. James ended up with 'Hilary for president' scrawled along the side of his Caddy, Jeremy's Camaro had the words 'Country and western is rubbish', and Richard's pick-up bore the legend 'Man love rules OK'. These sentiments didn't go down too well with some of the locals and, to cut a long story short, we were lucky to make it to New Orleans with our lives.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/show/episodes/series9episode3.shtml
I was shocked when I saw the reaction of people to the writing on the cars.
@dean
As my gaming buddies say: "Stupid does not discriminate against race, creed, or ideology."
It's stories like these that make me re-examine exactly why I'm against the death penalty...
@#64: Jimminy Christmas
Usually it's because they feel threatened: while as it in theory gives them more females to have a chance with, it in their minds also makes them sexual targets for even more men. They don't want unwanted advances from people they feel are otherwise more or less equal in power ( i.e. men) as opposed to from the "weaker sex". Getting hit on by men is terrifying for people who think that one can catch "teh ghey" from homosexuals, plus they worry about getting tricked and raped by them.
I used to live in NYC (many years ago). Sadly, there continue to exists pockets here and there where certain categories of humans dare not tread. This does not mean anything regarding the politics of the city: it's preponderantly liberal, the conservative republicans are far outnumbered and the homicidal crazies confined to small pockets where the lizard-brained dwell.
From my time in the 80s there were two incidents that stand out in my memory. A black man fled from his car after a minor traffic accident (you know how you customarily get out of the car and look at the damage then the drivers exchange insurance info like civilized people? Well, not this time) because an angry mob chases him. The mob catches him and a couple of them beat the man to death.
The other one took place in the Bronx where an Italian and a Puerto Rican neighborhood next to each other have waged war for years. Some out-of-towners from Yugoslavia blunder into the Italian neighborhood looking for a wedding. They are set upon by the residents because they're mistaken for Puerto Ricans. They flee to the Puerto Rican neighborhood. I can imagine the poor Yugoslavians wondering why their attackers stopped pursuing them for no apparent reason, but grateful nonetheless. Then the Puerto Ricans see them, mistake them for Italians and beat them up.
That segment, Top Gear take on the US, is on the BBCWorldWide YouTube channel. The bit you're referring to is the second part:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZJ7thnYqLk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkl_h7eC2kU
Many also worry about failing to adequately conceal their inner confusion and rapid heartbeat at the sight of gay men, and fear the reaction of their fellow homophobes should they fail to react with a sufficient mask of perceived masculinity.
@WWV #81
I'm the one who sent in the news brief to PZ - He's just passing the word. If there is anybody you want to blast for sending the heads-up regarding this crime, that would be me. Besides, the initial report did NOT give any details on the perps. It looks like we the commenters just jumped the gun on that matter.
This was reported on The Philippine Daily Inquirer, a Manila-based paper quite literally on the other side of the world. This is one royally sick incident if it managed to land here, if you think about it.
US revulsion at male-male affection is not only about opposition to sex, but also about narrow definitions about what it means to be male. In the US, many people feel that males aren't supposed to be affectionate or sensitive, they're supposed to be aggressive and devoid of feeling for others, they're supposed to see intimate relations only in terms of intercourse (which itself is seen as conquest), etc, etc. That's partly why there seems to be much less acceptance in the US of male-male couples than of female-female couples.
I can't tell you how sad and angry this story makes me. I can't understand how the f*ckers who continue to vote to deny protective and equal rights to the GLBT community reconcile their stance which such barbarity.
Also: I find it interesting that we find it OK to joke about male rape as a proper punishment for the perpetrators of this attack. Surely anyone suggesting that a woman who committed a crime be raped as punishment would (appropriately) be castigated up and down this message board.
That segment, Top Gear take on the US, is on the BBCWorldWide YouTube channel. The bit you're referring to is the second part:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZJ7thnYqLk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkl_h7eC2kU
Thanks Emmet, I was looking for a clip to include but I could not find it.
Surely anyone suggesting that a woman who committed a crime be raped as punishment would (appropriately) be castigated up and down this message board.
you mean if a woman committed an physical assault that was clearly motivated by homophobia?
is that what you mean?
because otherwise, your point is silly and irrelevant.
A few predictions:
None of those attackers would refer to himself as a "humanist" and I'll go a step further and say none of them would even know what the term means.
All of them believe in a god of some variety.
All of them are white, male and between 20 and 30 years old.
None of them have a college education.
Stereotypes aren't always wrong; sometimes they're called demographics.
you mean if a woman committed an physical assault that was clearly motivated by homophobia?
is that what you mean?
because otherwise, your point is silly and irrelevant.
I should've made clear I was responding to an earlier comment ("You can only hope they get caught and spend many hours dropping the soap in the showers with Carlos.") I was making a general comment on the acceptance of joking about male rape. That said, I'm confused about your need to differentiate on the type of crime the woman would need to commit in order for my point to be clear. Are you implying that had I meant "a woman [who] committed an [sic] physical assault that was clearly motivated by homophobia" it would be appropriate to joke about rape as an appropriate punishment?
Been there, done that, survived ...
ONLY thanks to the British NHS emergency services.
I was wearing riding kit, and was therefore a "queer", because I was dressed "funny", and walking round the block, and was attacked (we think - I have a memory-blank) with something like an old fencepost with NAILS in it - punctured lung, lost more blood than I had to start with, couldn't walk without a cane anywhere for over 6 months - back in 1975.
Aren't people nice to know?
I've yet to hear the "right to bear arms" people chime in with, "Too bad the brothers weren't all cannoned up: they could have protected themselves by shooting a few people." I wonder why.
Monado,
Because we "gunnies" already know that NYC is one of the most gun-controlled cities in the USA. You have to be wealthy or well-connected to get a concealed carry permit there. Besides, if these brothers were still foreign citizens, it would be difficult for them to buy a firearm in the reddest of red states, let alone NYC.
I totally support Pink Pistols, BTW.
Why some of us Leftists (and I do count myself as one) are so anti-self defense just boggles my mind; And I also unflinchingly support the death penalty precisely because of murderers like this.
Why some of us Leftists (and I do count myself as one) are so anti-self defense just boggles my mind
"Self-defense" != "gun"
This is where I find the "gunnies" completely lacking in imagination...
I was making a general comment on the acceptance of joking about male rape.
by making a comparison to a totally unrelated thing.
typically you will note that quips about male prison rape are a bit of very specific irony, directed at homophobic gay bashers.
as such, if you don't get that, you should now, right?
otherwise, you're really dense.
I wonder what it is that makes people so completely terrified of gay people that they kill people just because they think they say some gays. I simply don't get it. Personally I dislike immature, unsophisticated, barbaric thugs. But that's just me... I'm weird like that.
Some people apparently feel revulsion at gay love or what they perceive to be that. I wish they could feel the same about violence.
I wonder what it is that makes people so completely terrified of gay people that they kill people just because they think they say some gays.
I think it's one part mental conditioning on the part of ignorant parents and peers, and one part frustration that none of what their parents and peers tell them makes any fucking sense whatsoever, with violent outlet being an unfortunately common (and acceptable to their peers) result.
I really do think at some level there are large groups of people in this country that think you can teach through beating the shit out of someone.
look at the ever increasing prevalence of "bullying" behavior in secondary schools for a related example.
re: Ichthyic
You crack me up. I've already pointed out to you that I was commenting on an earlier post, and hence the relevance, but you still don't get it. Talk about dense ... (Nice dodge of my question, too, by the way, wacky little amateur.) And no, jokes about male prison rape are not typically "a bit of very specific irony, directed at homophobic gay bashers," they're typically from straight boys uncomfortable about the subject of homosexuality. And besides, are you really saying it's OK to joke about rape when it's done ironically and directed at homophobes? No, douche bag, it's not OK to joke about rape, male or otherwise. My friend, you need to get out more, maybe meet some people. You know, try and shed that mind of a 15-year-old that finds those kinds of quips funny.
@107 -- "Why some of us Leftists ... are so anti-self defense just boggles my mind; And I also unflinchingly support the death penalty precisely because of murderers like this."
I suggest, JJR, that you rethink both points before you earn the mantle of a Leftist.
There is nothing wrong with self-defence, but the law says it has to be proportional to the threat; you can't shoot someone who is threatening you with a 2x4. You run away instead, as the best form of self-defence (and let him try to catch you while running unbalanced with that extra mass). Think that's dishonourable or makes you appear a coward? It makes you smart, alive, and not liable to a charge of manslaughter.
Secondly, here in Canada where state murder was abolished about 1965, we have had at least 4 cases of men wrongly convicted of murder weho would have been dead years ago, but for enlightened liberal policies. They are evidence that wrongful conviction can happen to anyone of us. If you think the death penalty is OK, I invite you to step right up as the next for random selection. You will have no defence, philosphically.
Furthermore, there is a two-part solution in penal reform that would work. We have here a number of serial killers, Paul Bernardo being the most infamous. He will be incarcerated for the rest of his life in solitary confinement (for his own protection), but at horrible public expense. The first part of the reform is to build a special prison in the high Arctic for criminals of his odium, but that would cost a tiny fraction to run. No guards would be needed, because each prisoner would be permanentmy sealed inside a 20 x 20 x 20 foot cell, equipped with a radio, TV, toilet, sink, bed, reading lamp, desk, exercise equipment, and a dagger suspended from the ceiling completely out of reach. The building would be circular, with each cell featuring a floor to ceiling triple paned wire-reinforced glass wall giving an unobstructed view of ... the frozen Canadian tundra. Meals and fresh laundry and library materials would be exchanged through a 6" x 12" slot; the only man-sized door would be from the ceiling to initially deposit the convict into the cell, and later to retrieve the body. There would be no contact between the convict and the outside world, and no contact possible among the prisoners. The prisoner would never see, hear, touch or even smell another live person again. Result: no escape possible, no riot possible, no prison murder possible, and no guards needed, except during initial deposit, and these would be the transfer guards from the south. (In the case of emergency medical care such as for an appendectomy, gas would be introduced into the cell to reender unconsciousness while the prioner could be secured, retrieved, and later redeposited.
The overall effect would be a continuation of physical existence of the convict, with the conviction of his being permanently banished from the rest of humanity, but with the dagger of relief likewise permanently out of reach. A wrongfully convicted person would still have the ability to communicate with the outside world, but be unable to affect it directly, but still alive, free from state murder.
The entire facility would be so secure that the bulk of its staff would be able to function as hotel catering staff for an exotic locale spa resort, a profit centre, instead of a cost centre.
The savings would go into the second part of the penal reform plan, oriented towards real reform of prisoners through restitution, instead of retribution.
And just what could Jose Sucuzhanay have done? If he'd had the chance to run away, he would have. An SUV-load of homophobes don't need guns to kill you. They can do it just fine with a beer bottle, a baseball bat, and their feet.
If Jose had had a gun, he would have been entirely justified in defending his life by shooting one or more of these assailants. He might still be alive.
Just amazing that here we have a man who was murdered, not hypothetically, and your happy ass is still convinced that a gun would have been useless but running would have saved his life.
Have you ever been the victim of a hate crime, or are you privileged enough to not know what the fuck you're talking about?
And, Doug the Primate, what about those of us who can't run? Who can't physically defend ourselves against a determined attacker? Flashing - hell, even pointing - a gun is physically easier, and shooting it would very likely be unnecessary against someone attacking you with a 2x4. There's mace, but that wouldn't have saved this man. There are arguments to be made for gun control, but that one isn't good.
"mistakes them for a gay couple" - "If anyone wants to talk about civilized behavior, this isn't it."
gays should wear badges, so civilized americans beat up and kill the right ones....
andrew @ #117,
I'm still waking up, but I don't get your comment.
They are evidence that wrongful conviction can happen to anyone of us. If you think the death penalty is OK, I invite you to step right up as the next for random selection. You will have no defence, philosphically. - Doug the Primate
Exactly. In the UK there have been numerous cases over the past 30 years of convicted murderers - notably supposed IRA bombers - who would certainly have hanged if the death penalty had been in force, but who were later shown to be innocent. The late Conservative PM Edward Heath (not a man I liked or admired) was an opponent of the death penalty. During a Parliamentary debate on reintroducing it, a supporter of it bravely declared that if it were reintroduced, he would be prepared to carry it out. "That's not the question.", Heath replied, "The question is whether you're prepared to be hanged by mistake."
#117 probably meant "gays should wear badges, so civilized americans beat up and kill only real gays, and not people mistaken for being gay."
Poor sarcasm or troll, I don't know. It's so moronic it doesn't deserve a reply.
Well, yeah - I got that part. :)
I thought it needed to be addressed insofar as it implied that PZ was saying that the behavior was uncivilized only if the attackers were mistaken about the sexual orientation of their victims. So the troll reading warranted a reply, I thought, but I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.
#105 "Been there, done that, survived ...
ONLY thanks to the British NHS emergency services.
I was wearing riding kit, and was therefore a "queer", because I was dressed "funny", and walking round the block, and was attacked (we think - I have a memory-blank) with something like an old fencepost with NAILS in it - punctured lung, lost more blood than I had to start with, couldn't walk without a cane anywhere for over 6 months - back in 1975."
I am so sorry to hear of your experience. Idiots have always been with us I suppose. Were the guys ever caught?