If Bill O'Reilly ever gets a Christmas special, he'll need an opening musical number…
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The DefCon Blog has announced a horrific event tonight: Lawrence Krauss — he's the good guy — is going to be on Fox, with Ken Ham and Bill O'Reilly.
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Here's an amusing exchange between Bill O'Reilly and a guest on his show about this mythical war on Christmas at department stores:
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Bill O'Reilly's views…
LOL Great!
Sweet PZ. That man is a genius, a musical Cuttlefish.
Happy Amerimonkey.
I agree with the sentiment towards Bill O'Reilly, but personally I thought the song was rubbish.
Is it just me or does Roy look like he could be PZ's younger brother?
Oh, it is just me?
Ah well, happy monkey to one and all.
Matt - you were expecting what - deathless melodies?? Mellow out. I've got to forward this to my friend who helped me come out as an atheist.
Happy Newton's day (or not, depending on which calendar you choose)
I dunno, Zimmerman's humor always seems too... predictable somehow. He's got his moments, but overall it seems like his songs could be compressed into one-liners without losing anything.
Yeah, I don't get the Zimmerman love. He seems mediocre at best.
Watch the one - Defenders of Marriage - with the Santa looking guy. It's priceless.
It's quite funny that the Wholly Delusional Christmas proponents chastise the use of the phrase "happy holidays" considering the etymology of the word "holidays" which means "holy days"! So, saying "happy holidays" to someone is wishing them to have "happy holy days", or really to have "happy wholly daze in your delusion". It's very funny that the religious nut jobs don't even look up the history of the words they complain about!
May you have a Wholly Rational Enlightenment as the Days Get Brighter after the Natural Winter Solstice.
It would be a lot better if he could sing or write a decent melody. Also if he were more witty and subtle. I don't get the Zimmerman love either.
I particularly like how it ends with "Shut up". Perfect. I also like the Merry-can instead of American, very nice fundagelical.
Its 6 am here in Aus so Merry Sqidmas to all fellow Pharyngulites. Unfortunately Mr Shrek's brother passed away suddenly two days ago in England so he's had to go back to his home to organise all the unpleasantries. Nonetheless the three little Shreklettes and myself will try and make it fun on our own. One of the buggers has had me up since 4 hassling me for presents but as I await the other two to wake up and start the madness I sit here quietly having a cup of coffee, reflecting on life and wishing you all a happy day full of love and peace.
Happy Monkey, Bride. May you have some rest soon.
Bride of Shrek, OM, merry squidmas, happy monkey and commiseration. BTW, I was just thinking of you as Shrek the Halls was just on BBC1.
Roy also has an entire album, "PeaceNick", of holiday songs. My faves--"Christmas is pain", "Buy War Toys For Christmas", and "Christmas in Crawford, 2004"
I see BoS announcement that it's Squidmas in Aus, it's tempting to channel the B5 quote "And so it begins".
Sorry to hear about your loss. The little ones will keep you from dwelling on things. Happy Monkey.
Zimmerman is great. The day O'Reilly gets his own Christmas Show will mark the true decline of Christianity in America as a signpost of dying religion.
I agree this wasn't Zim's best offering.
I enjoyed the cuttlefish reference btw.
Enjoy.
At his best ("America", "Thanks for the Support") I really think Roy Zimmerman is not just a great comic but a truly great songwriter. He can skip between laughs and political points and real emotion like Billy Bragg (with the added benefit of being a competent singer and guitar player). This sounds like he phoned it in.
O and Happy Monkey to you all.
How about an atheist Christmas song from the awesome Tim Minchin? It's not comedy, it's sweet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0s68-GLGWY
OT: I haven't been around much the last week or so, but I'm just dropping in to wish everyone here a merry whatever and a happy next unit of heliocentric time.
See y'all ~1/5/09....
Matt7895 @ #3, I agree.
Happy holly daze.
Hey, be nice to this guy! He looks like PZ with a shave.
It's Monkey Eve, for Squid's sake!
You have to love Roy!!!! Looks like PZ? Nah.
that was amusing. his other songs are funnier, but the a-merry-can christmas line was neat :-)
At first glance he reminded me of PC from the Mac/PC commercials.
Just to point something out (I do love Roy Zimmerman's songs), but my Pastafarian calendar does say Holiday. Holiday lasts from the fifteenth of December to the sixteenth of January.
Happy Monkey from Australia, everyone! It's morning here and I couldn't stay in bed any longer.
OT - in the unlikely event you'd like just a bit more about the crackers in cracker-gate, check out the NYT piece:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/25/business/smallbusiness/25sbiz.html?hp
I especially like the bit:
"It doesn't crumb, and I don't like fragments of our Lord scattering all over the floor,"
In this nearing birthday of the imaginary jesus, the Christians need to show us their love.
My Christmas Letter of Good Cheer to Christians:
Long before you silly, confused, lying, obfuscating, faking frauds created your NEW religion 2000 years ago (by voting jesus in as a god in 325 AD by the Nicene Council)---Winter Solstice was celebrated for at least 5000 to 8000 years before you upstarts stole the celebration, up to and including appointing the birth of jesus as the same day as Winter Solstice, Dec 25th (which conveniently was also the birthday appointed to two other gods, Apollo and Mithra).
So...when we say...Happy Winter Solstice...the traditions and acknowledgment of when the life-giving SUN is farthest from the earth and thus begins the realignment of the earth and the Sun back to being closer to us...so plants can live, we can grow food and eat, the earth warms up, water flows, and Spring is on the way...sustaining life on this planet, it is really significant. Your religion has completely ignored life on this planet which is very important. Winter Solstice means something real.
Your dream world and delusional religion, cannot plant crops, sustain life, or even acknowledge the importance of the SUN....since you are all life-haters...and are in reality suicidal self-hating creatures, who worship a neo-god who also committed suicide....
It is not Merry Whatever as one of you sarcastic xians said, chagrined at Xmas no longer being as important or "real" as it once was considered to be. Dec 25th is again being acknowledged as one of the most important days of the year known for at least 5 millenium. But, no never mind...the suffering of your imaginary jesus and gawd have to be more important than all other religions or CELEBRATIONS OF LIFE...
Instead of celebrating life, you xians worship death and just can't wait to join this multiple-god trio including a "ghost"....in eternity...doing who knows what...how boring. OK then, I say...do it....Make the 25th of December the day that you join jesus....in heaven, or where ever your delusional and insane brain takes you. Since you are saved...then joining jesus in heaven...will be just a mere step into the harmonious, ever boring after world of your brainless religious invention.
In fact...use the 25th of December...to have cruci-fiction parties....get those crosses out, nail each other to the cross....SUFFER just like jesus did....my oh my what a role model you have chosen to worship i.e. some nearly naked, bloody, beaten up dead guy in a diaper hanging on a stick who intentionally committed suicide by cop (Roman Soldier)...
PS: I would never, ever ask or approve of anyone "dying for me," or "committing suicide" for any reason so I can go to some imaginary, unknown place in the sky...and I find an entire religion based on this "belief" out right insane. The backwards of mental hospitals are full of people like you...who have done various and hideous things to themselves and others in the name of god and jesus....including drowning all of their children in a bath tub because god told them to (Andrea Yates).
If you do a Google search, or go to YouTube.com....you can take lessons on how to drive nails into your palms and feet just like some nut case Filipinos do every year. They almost got it right...problem is they don't hang on the stick long enough to end up like jesus...they just do it for only a short time, long enough to get enough attention from the crowds to satisfy their sick egoes.
Oh yeah, even you dumb xians don't even get cruci-fiction right...in real cruci-fictions by the Romans, nails were driven through the wrists....not the hands, because the many, small bones in the hand can separate by supporting the weight of the body, causing the crucified to fall off the cross and just hang upside down by their feet and flop around like a gaffed fish....so do it right...drive those Christian Nails right through the wrists...and hang there...and see if god saves you. And the more you suffer, you will know that this is what jesus wants you to do...so do it. Show us your love, show us how much you are suffering for us. Jesus is going to be so proud.
In the 21st Century....christianity is right up there with other bizarre practices, such as female genital mutilation, piercing nipples, lips, eye brows, noses, tongues, and other parts of the genitalia, or tatooing "Mother" across one's back...and other defacements of the human body. And, such practices are all supremely painful...making the sufferer "feel" as if they are doing something really unique, worthwhile, and wonderful...so join them, start nailing each other to the cross every year. Get on with your orgy of suffering "for us," and...do it right, after all jesus did it, so, why you too?
Just how much you xians hate yourselves and are willing to suffer because of self-hate, including hate for all of human life (the sin of carnality) depends on how hypocritical the xian is in reality. Real xians can't wait to die. You xians state frequently, that you are "born sinners"...you are born evil, you are not even worthy of kissing the hem of jesus "dress,"
And,...the rest of you fake your self hate, when in reality, you are full of narcisscistic, hysterical, egotistic need to dominate others, and psychologically use blackmail, extortion and threats, including instilling guilt and shame to manipulate other unsophisticated, and vulnerable human beings. Therefore, to better "sell" xianity like used car salesmen,using the most base emotions and manipulations, you xians need to crucify yourselves as a witness to your "faith" and an example of how much "christian love" means.
In reality, whereby you xians then want the rest of us to worship your suffering....its all about YOU...and getting attention. Afterall, the word "christian" means little christ...so be a little christ and crucify yourselves just like jesus did. Show us by example....what we should do, show us your love.
Xianity is all about insecurity, fear, lack of self esteem or a sense of worth of your own life and the life of others...Your religion is an example of the LUDDITE fear of progress, and the need to self destruct into annialistic mindlessness of which you just think you are going to enjoy---Forever.
Freud and other philosophers of psychology have noted there are two main drives in human beings...the drive to Live, and the drive to Die....The Christian Religion has taken the drive to DIE and encased it in an art form and an orgy of self hate, and the worship of suicide and self mutilation....well OK then...stop whining around telling everyone we should be just like you...show us by example, what you really worship and believe.
Every one of you xians...should re-enact the cruci-fiction on yourselves....show us how much you love and emulate jesus...jesus is afterall, the example you follow, so do it...crucify yourselves.
I can't wait...be sure to get someone to take pictures or a video and put it on YouTube.com...don't let the Filipinos be better xians then you.
Judy Weismonger--Atheist Activist Against Religious Insanity
Judy @ #31
Whilst I agree with the sentiments on your letter for the most...
"Happy Winter Solstice...the traditions and acknowledgment of when the life-giving SUN is farthest from the earth and thus begins the realignment of the earth and the Sun back to being closer to us..."
Some of us in the Southern Hemisphere might just disagree with that point.
Hahah! This one is funny.
NS
notedscholar wrote:
You're being sarcastic, right? You have to be; I've got five bucks riding on you having no sense of humour whatsoever. And I need those clams to buy beer with.
Yes, but you are all upside-down and therefore objectively wrong.
PS: Please e-mail some heat. Kthxbai & Happy Monkey!
Happy Squidmas BoSOM and all the other Pharyngulites !
Im on my way to ex with the prezzies for the little one,then off to work to save some lifes....
Hey clinteas, didn't know you'd successfully passed your genes on. Good that someone sensible is; I'm not expecting to.
Hope it's just minor, silly injuries you have to deal with today. It'd be too depressing otherwise.
I've also left my gift-wrapping until the absolute last minute, as I always do. Usually it's not that much of a problem, but now I've just realised that what I thought was plenty of wrapping paper in fact is far, far less than enough...
Pedantic point - the Earth is nearest to perihelion about this time of year, contrary to what you might expect. It is the apparent motion of the sun south that stops at the winter solstice and the warming will begin as it moves back northward.
For those in the southern hemisphere, the apparent motion of the sun is reversed, as are the effects.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GbCaBI3jSs
Might I recommend these guys' faux christmas album from comedy site http://toofar.tv.
i especially love the zeitgeist influenced Jesus reference in the middle.
"Go Tell It On The Mountain... Jesus Never Really Lived. Go Tell It On The Mountain... They were actually 4000 year old Egyptian stories used by Europeans for their own purpose of control"
LOL
"life-giving SUN is farthest from the earth"
Not so sure about that. The diagram doesn't show the ellipticity of the Sun's orbit around the Earth relative to the seasons:
http://calgary.rasc.ca/images/radec_earth_orbit.gif
Stop arguing about the Sun you lot, what do you think this is, a science blog ?
Merry fictional-Jesus-birthday to all of you, from Ireland !
Even Tom Lehrer acknowledges Roy Zimmerman is this generation's Tom Lehrer.
Happy Mythmas / Monkey whichever you prefer!
Posting from a jurassic fossil coast I am going to wish you all a happy Ammonitemas. Now, a piece of reportage from Brtiain which suggests that churchgoers are more bent than the rest of us:
It's from the Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee's column (My Christmas message, there's probably no God) and she often writes bollocks of the purest water, but she may be on the mone with this one.
Even Tom Lehrer acknowledges Roy Zimmerman is this generation's Tom Lehrer. - woody
He does? Zimmerman's OK, but I'd have to say he's not a patch on Lehrer. Listen to Lehrer's "A Christmas Carol" (lyrics linked to by Janine the V.B. on another thread), and then tell me Zimmerman comes anywhere near him!
OT, I thought I'd share this lovely, from the heart poem with all of you (except those in the Southern Hemisphere, who won't appreciate it now):
found this beautiful winter poem and thought it might be a comfort to you. It was to me, and it's very well written.
I felt it really captured my own feelings about winter.
WINTER
A poem by Abigail Elizabeth McIntyre
SHIT, It's Cold !
The End
... or "Poisoning Pigeons in the Park", "Bright College Days" (where has Zimmerman come up with lines like:
"Soon we'll be out, amid the cold world's strife,
Soon we'll be sliding down the razor blade of life."?),
"The Masochism Tango" (particularly recommended to Naked Bunny), "Oedipus Rex", "The Hunting Song" (which could have been written with Dick Cheney in mind), "Be Prepared", "It Makes a Fellow Proud to be a Soldier" (recommended to brokenSoldier), and above all "We Will All Go Together When We Go".
I think it would be easier for me to be accepted by my family if I were a gay Christian than the straight atheist I am. Another Christmas where I sit through some awful crap to make my parents happy, and so I will sit bored in my chair during the Meal Blessing That Never Ever Ends.
Happy Day Off to all.
Nick,
While you mention my favorite Lehrer song, "Poisoning Pigeons in the Park," you completely neglected Lehrer's "Vatican Rag".
'Tis Himself,
I'd forgotten that one! It's not on the two records of his I have (yes, real vinyl: Tom Lehrer Revisited and An Evening Wasted with Tom Lehrer). I see it's on youtube at:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3f72CTDe4-0.
I wonder if he got any death threats for it?
Merry Christmas from Australia!
Merry Christmas.
BTW, The Vatican Rag is on the album That Was The Year That Was (along with National Brotherhood Week and Wernher Von Braun).
Piltdown@53,
Ah yes, Werner von Braun:
'"Vunce rockets go up, who cares vere zey come down?
Zats not my department", says Werner von Braun'.
Well, well, have we discovered something in common?
Merry Christmas.
Bah! Humbug! (I'm one of those atheists who really does dislike Christmas.)
Merry Squidmas and Happy Monkey to our European correspondents. May you have an enjoyable day.
Happy Monkey! Merry Christmas! Happy Hollendaise! Yes, let's all get sauced and have a very merry whatever!
Happy Monkey everyone. Time for bed.
Nick is right, time for bed for the non-night owls in Europe. So for our European correspondents, Happy Monkey to all, and to all a good night.
Happy Monkey minions!!
Just back from the parents place.
My two atheist brothers, my atheist father and I sat around sharing fundie jokes and digs on Bible translations.
Christmas eve tradition.
Nick, 'Tis Himself, Pilty, et al.:
Obviously y'all need to get hold of the the most comprehensive Lehrer collection available.
I'm tempted to agree that Roy Z can't match Lehrer in sheer musical chops... but that doesn't mean he's not "the Tom Lehrer of his generation": Who else combines the same musical ability, political acumen, and satirical edge? Even if he's only a poor man's Lehrer, he's still the closest thing we've got these days.
Of course, if he had a brother, he could be his generation's Smothers Brothers. Wonder if his mom always liked him best?
Whichever hemisphere you are in, and whatever weather you are experiencing, may you enjoy the religious and/or secular holiday(s) of your choice.
Happy Monkey to all--I'm looking forward to another year of camaraderie, learning, debate, and intellectual stimulation here at Pharyngula!
(and fuck but it's cold here in Seattle!)
Happy Monkey/Merry Squidmas from Sunny South Africa! It's forecast to get 33C/91F here today. I've got 3kg/6.6 pounds of lobster in the fridge, ready to get braai-ed today!
Yes, this is the real Kenny.
I wanted to wish all of you and your family a very Merry Christmas! :) :) :) :)
Yes, I know you don't believe or understand and you think that I am stupid, ignorant, and a lunatic.
However, it's time to put down the anger and understand that we all have to live together on this Earth with our differences.
We are all evolving at our own pace in life and we must get along together to survive on this planet.
Jesus is about love and that is what binds us all. As I said above, you won't believe. However, I do want you to think of this message before you die.
I want you to think back of that moron who you laughed at and I want you to remember not me, but this message.
It's like an Atom, an Atom exists no matter if you believe in it or not. Same thing as God. As I said, it is all true and you will find this out when you die. You don't end, you go on.
This reminds me of the old Science Fiction book and later movie of Logan's Run. They all thought people that wanted to run were crazy and they were stupid, but once they got to the outside world, it was a complete different mind blowing experience and it was all true. They thought it was a myth. It's funny how that can be so right.
Anyway, I just want you to be open minded before you die at least. Its not us verses them, that is just silly nonsense.
Wanted to wish you and yours a very Merry Christmas and hope that you have a good time with your families. I know I will with mine.
Here is John Chapter 3, starting with verse 16:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Kenny, fuck off. Christmas is no excuse for your godboting stupidity.
Janine, Vile Bitch, I do so love your ever changing tags :)
Merry squidmas and happy monkey from the UK to you and all Pharyngulites.
Kenny,
LOL!
Kenny, there is no religious significance to this day any more; it has meaning without your imaginary god. So we're no more likely to listen to your wildly uncompelling drivel on this day than we would any other day.
Your metaphors are stunningly inaccurate and your bible cut-and-paste stupefyingly insipid. If your god existed and 'so loved the world' he could have just chosen to forgive humanity without anyone having to suffer or be nailed to anything. Just like that. He created the universe, remember - why is his power suddenly so limited?
And, more importantly, what exactly is it that he needs to forgive? If he created us as we are then it's all his own fault anyway since we're his creations. If anyone should be doing the forgiving it's us - we should be choosing whether or not to forgive him for his many sins against us.
Wowbagger,
It has nothing to do with the day man.
You missed the entire point.
December 25th is not Jesus' real birthday.
Every Christian knows that. I mean I hate to explain all of this stuff that most people already know.
We do not know the exact day, and if I remebered right some scientists have speculated that it was sometime in April.
However, a lot of things change over time and that day was probably selected because of what was already said in this thread.
However, just because I have a Christmas tree does not mean that I am celebrating pegan holidays, the meaning of it has changed over time.
Just like the meaning of the Nazi Symbol has changed over time with history, just like gay which used to mean happy, now means homosexual.
Meanings change over time. December 25th from 5000 years ago does not mean the same thing now to most people. Thus it is the day that has been selected as the celebration of the birth of Jesus and not actually the real day.
ugg, I mean the fact that I have to point this out is embarassing.
My message is more to wish you happiness and enjoyment with your families and I hope you have a good time.
I wanted to leave a message of cheer and give you something to remember.
Anyway last post of the night before the celebration of Christmas Day.
#68
Quite right. Fuck Jesus, and his command for us to love him. No one should ever love out of compulsion.
Kenny the godbot, how is coming to an atheist blog and mentally masturbating in public leaving us a message of cheer. If you wished to leave us a message of cheer you would have simply wished us merry Xmas, happy holidays or similar. So once again a godbot lies while godbotting, quell surprise.
Merry Christmas, Kenny. There is no God.
From the Land Down Under I wish to say:
"Happy Monkey to All, and to Kenny: Fuck You!"
(Sorry, not in the best of moods and just ain't in the right frame of mind to deal with that sorta crap).
Kenny,
Wow, and I thought I'd already got all the gifts I was going to get, and I come here and what do I find - a big, shiny gift-wrapped idiot troll, drooling barely coherent nonsense. Thanks, Santa!
Impressive - you actually appear to have become stupider in the time you were away. And you've managed to pack a whole lot of wrong into a relatively short post - so it's time for me to have some fun.
Where, exactly, did I say December 25 was Jesus' actual birthday? Go ahead, show me the quote. What I wrote was this:
Care to highlight where the words 'Jesus', 'actual' or 'birthday' appear in my sentence? Trying reading for comprehension at least once in your unfortunate existence.
So, you trust the scientists who tell you when Jesus might have been born, but you don't trust them when they tell you there's no such thing as an afterlife and that your precious NDEs are the result of misfires in the brain? Double-standards much? Colour me unsurprised.
Yes, once it was a symbol of an ancient culture; then it was modified and revived by christians who wanted to persecute non-christians - which they did, quite successfully. Are you saying you're proud of your co-religionists' achievements?
5000 years? Epic maths fail, dude. Your Jesus, if he existed, was around something close to 2000 years ago, not 5000. That's why the year used to be called AD - but, thanks to christianity's dwindling influence, is now called CE. You aren't much of a christian, are you?
I mean I hate to explain all of this stuff that most people already know.
Kenny, if you have people near you that know less than you do I suggest you have them committed to some kind of institution, stat. They're a danger to themselves and others.
At least you got one thing right. Once, when people said 'christian', it meant 'dominant belief system thought to be correct by civilised people'; now it means 'fading, archaic ooga-booga known to be utter rubbish by anyone with half an ounce of common sense and intellectual honesty'.
It may surprise you that we live on a spherical planet, Kenny - and I'm on the part of it where the day is nearly over. I've had my celebration, which involved many things - none of them to do with your lame religion.
Maybe, if you're lucky, Santa will bring you some brains. I'm not going to hold my breath, though.
Happy monkey!
Harold, thanks for sharing, that was hilarious.
Nadolig Llawen a mwnci hapus gan Gymru. (Merry Xmas and happy monkey from Wales).
I'm with Kenny, meanings change over time. What was once a pagan festival celebrating the solstice became a festival celebrating a cult leader who for 3 centuries after his death it was maintained that his birthday should not be celebrated. Come to these modern times and Christmas has changed again, it's got almost nothing to do with Jesus these days. Santa Claus is the main image of this secular event. The emphasis of the holiday is on gift-giving, it's but a remnant of our culture that Jesus has anything to do with it anymore.So merry christmas Kenny, and I mean that in the most secular way possible. We've stolen your traditions like the way Christians stole it from pagans ;)
Interesting that you brought up Logan's Run. Did you actually take in the message of that? It was a very atheist one. "There is no sanctuary", they believed they could escape death through the belief in something that turned out not to exist, and it ended with people embracing mortality.
Happy Monkey to all and to all a Good whatever is the local colloquial term for the current part of the diurnal cycle where you are when you read this.
I've just finished stuffing stockings, stuck a few more logs in the fire, and will now be sitting next to it with a glass of Bushmills until I figure I can manage to fall back to sleep, join the wild hunt, whichever.
Christmas in Japan is nowhere near as bizarre as the video of the same name led me to expect.
interestingly though, right now i can hear some real life happy monkeys capering in the forest outside. wonderful.
Kenny's comments display the somewhat interesting mindset of contemporary religulous: that science and learning are somehow preventing people from seeing the truth about religion.
The problem with that is that we've already been set free to see the truth. Science set us free from many of the lies that religion had told us - well-meaning lies in many instances, but lies nonetheless. 'God created the universe, and all the animals in it as they are today', we were told. Science - evolutionary theory and paleontology, amongst others - says otherwise.
Once we'd had our eyes opened to those lies, the other lies upon which many of the religions are based on - Noah's Ark, the ten commandments, Jesus as the son of Yahweh, the resurrection - had doubt cast upon them as well. It was a non-religious miracle!
Going back to religion after being set free is the equivalent of choosing to go back to prison, or - to use a contemporary film analogy - to do what Cypher did in The Matrix and ask to go back to the system, opting to meekly embrace the comforting illusion of religion rather than show real character and face the cold, hard truth of reality.
What a bad analogy. For starters the atom is a necessity in nature, it's what we are built of. Secondly we've both directly and indirectly observed the atom - we have a good idea of the forces at play inside an atom and we even know the individual components of atoms (and some components of the components.) We know the atom exists fullstop.God on the other hand is more like ether, it was posited as a necessity to explain the unexplainable and has been superseded through observation of scientific advancement. God as the creator of life? pfft. Creator of stars and planets? pfft. Just how far back does God need to be pushed in order to accommodate him these days? Before the big bang it seems.As for finding out when we die, talk about the ultimate shirking of responsibility in the burden of proof. After we die, the soul will cast off the shackles of it's earthly bounds and be it's own beginning to another universe. That statement has as much merit as yours Kenny, you can't demonstrate anything that happens after you die. It's nothing more than speculation. How does one get this insight? That has to come before one dies, so your statement about us finding out after we die is ignoring the dilemma of first cause. You're either speculating on the unknown or you are admitting that there once was a source of evidence for your beliefs.
Poor Kenny, he's not that bad. He knows Jesus wasn't really born on the 25th. He trusts science when it tells him he was born in april. Maybe my expectations have been lowered too much by xians.
Anyway, as I said on my mother's present, like merry xmas and whatever.
Squiddy Merrymas to one and all!
Finally up this Squidmas day. Have to visit some relatives, so I will be offline for a couple of days. Good season to all. Happy Monkey.
Wowbagger @81:
Matrix analogies cut both ways though, don't they? 'Scientific truth' is perceived reality -- but perceptions can be deceptive.
We are led to believe a lie/When we see not through but with the eye. - William Blake
You don't need eyes to see, you need vision. - Faithless
If we wish to proceed securely in all things we must hold fast to the following principle: What seems to me white, I will believe black if the hierarchical church so defines. - St Ignatius Loyola
Who are you going to believe -- me or your own eyes? - Groucho Marx (attrib)
You say religion is a sweet consoling fantasy shielding us from the bracing winds of harsh, pitiless reality -- but Judy Weismonger @31 says it is a death-obsessed wallowing in sado-masochistic cruelty that blinds us to the warm, consoling rhythms of the natural world.
Who should I believe and why?
Happy Hogswatch to all.
I know the Hogfather came last night, the glass of sherry is empty, the pork pie is half-eaten, and three of the turnips are gone. Plus there's a big yellow stain on the roof. One or more of the pigs had a wee.
They can, that's why science doesn't rely on any one perception. It's based on empirical evidence that moves beyond one individual's subjective experience. It only measures what we can know, not what we can't. It may only be able to measure perceived reality, but it's the one we live in. As far as we can know, the truth of our own existence is as comparable as the truths of existence of empirical means. I can't say that this isn't all a computer simulation, I just have nothing to say it is. Work on what we can know, not what we can't.
MerryChristmasFromKenny #64,
Wow, a visit from the Ghost of Christmas Near-Death Experiences!
Pilty, that is a question you have to answer for yourself. For me, this is an easy question. Science and empirical data can always demonstrate to anybody what knowledge is in its database and how it go there. Science changes as the data changes, so it evolves into something even better. For example, the Theory of Evolution has evolved in the 150 years since Darwin first proposed it, adding features Darwin simply couldn't conceive of, because knowledge of those things like genes, DNA, genomes and the like hadn't been discovered yet. But science does not have absolute knowledge that some seek, since science is always tentative.
Religion is static and frozen in its ways, and the knowledge data base isn't evolving into anything better, but just going round and round like a merry-go-round. Religion pretends to have absolutes, which comfort some people. But there is no growth.
I don't have faith in science since it isn't a religion. But, like Isaac Asimov, I have faith that the scientific method will advance mankind in the next hundred years while religion will not.
Piltdownman #86,
And a visit from the Ghost of Christmas Living in the Past (by using Latin to defend Monarchism)
MerryChristmasFromKenny (#64):
Is this "open minded" as in "prepared to examine all ideas impartially and critically and to accept only those which can be justified by reliable modes of inference", or is this "open minded" as in "will take any kind of bollocks seriously"?
So on the one hand you claim "Jesus is about love", and on the other you emphasise the authoritarian, coercive and intolerant face of Christian ideology. I knew there was a reason why everybody thought you were a disagreeable idiot.
Thought about it, and it's still intellectually and ethically bankrupt.
A very Happy Monkey to everybody except Kenny.
Two Irish greetings for you all, from the heart of Paris, France.
Nollaig Shona Duit
Fuck The Begrudgers!
Happy Monkey!
Kenny muttered:
Kenny also muttered:
Methinks it looks like a hypocrite
Kenny, most atheists have thought of your message and gone way beyond the meager knowledge therein. That is why there is an inverse correlation with intelligence and belief in god. The smarter people can see through the lies of god and religion. You can't, which is why idiots like you keep making moronic statements that we don't see things. We don't see things cause they aren't there.
"And, more importantly, what exactly is it that he needs to forgive? "
Don't you remember? He's forgiving us for having tried to gain knowledge.
That's a sin Kenny is determined not to repeat.
If we wish to proceed securely in all things we must hold fast to the following principle: What seems to me white, I will believe black if the hierarchical church so defines. - St Ignatius Loyola, quoted by Piltdown
What a pair of idiots.
Piltdown Man (#86):
Both, actually, since theism is fully capable of encompassing both kinds of psychopathology. For example, believing in an afterlife of bliss can help one cope (superficially at least) with the genuine vicissitudes of life, but it can also lead one to exaggerate those hardships to make oneself feel that one is earning those heavenly rewards, and in so doing neglect the equally genuine pleasures of existence.
And for some people, a death-obsessed wallowing in sado-masochistic cruelty is a comforting fantasy. In the top-down, authoritarian moral universe of theism, it's not that hard to make a virtue of suffering (cf Mother Teresa) if one believes that it will be rewarded in the hereafter. It's not that hard to demonise those outside the ideological in-group and treat them accordingly if one believes that one's in-group has privileged access to the big alpha male in the sky. It's not that hard to devalue the physical world and even look forward to its ending if one believes that something better lies beyond (especially for oneself). In short, if it gives one a sense of order and purpose, a sense of belonging, a sense of being chosen, then to certain kinds of personality the appeal is going to be very strong indeed.
Awww,
a nice Xmas thread ruined by da Kenny godbotting....
At least he wished us a happy Xmas,thats kinda nice I reckon....
HAPPY MONKEY to all. (& Happy Delusions to Kenny and Pilty)
And for some people, a death-obsessed wallowing in sado-masochistic cruelty is a comforting fantasy. - Iain Walker
Piltdown himself undoubtedly falls into this category!
Feynmaniac @91:
All epochs exhibit the same vices, but not all show the same virtues. In every age there are hovels, but only in some are there palaces. - Nicolás Gómez Dávila
For the poor you have always with you; but me you have not always. - Jesus Christ
Piltdown,
What makes you think substituting quotations for arguments is going to impress anyone here? Save the arguments from authority for your godbotting buddies.
This "the poor you have always with you" crap is of course a fine excuse for the rich to continue hogging resources.
Pilty,
do you have actually any thoughts of your own,or is it just all cut and paste??
Its all of that,depends on which bible verses youre reading.
This is the kind of tripe you take as prophetic and indicative of the kind of wisdom the son of a god would possess? All he said was that after his death, poverty will continue. Which is especially unremarkable, considering that one of his main edicts to those who would follow him was to renounce earthly wealth.
And besides that, there's no evidence that this was even uttered by Jesus (along with there being no compelling evidence that Jesus even existed himself aside from one collection of historically inaccurate and severely and manipulatively edited religious texts), aside from the word of a man who never met him, and who lived long after Jesus had supposedly died.
Nick Gotts @104:
And that "inequality is always the result of exploitation" crap is a fine excuse for ideologues, opportunists and malcontents to shatter traditional ways of life in the name of an illusory future bliss for the masses.
Ah, Pilty, if the church really wanted to help out on the poverty war, they could sell all their assets and give the proceeds to the needy. Chances of that happening, zero.
Why don't you surprise me with that statement Pilty. I suppose you are one of those 'xians' that would use the bible to justify slavery and other equally lovely practises as long as the status quo is maintained and your religious fantasy is not threatened.
Besides the fact that no one made that argument, inequality is most certainly a major enabler of exploitation, especially when the wealthiest ones are also the ones controlling the keys to the gates of the supposed afterlife.
There simply is no intellectually honest way to defend the RCC for hoarding such a massive amount of wealth and living in such splendor in their own little private country when both their book and their own clerical protocol and teachings encourage the dismissal of wealth and excess in favor of "spiritual wealth." Hypocritical, in every sense of the word..
I wanted to leave a message of cheer and give you something to remember.
Your message is one we have heard thousands of times. You can train a parrot to say it. Kenny, if you really wanted to leave us cheerful, you would leave us.
Of course inequality isn't always the result of exploitation. Sometimes it's the result of the unequal distribution of talents and resources; which does not mean we shouldn't strive to reduce both exploitation and inequality. As for "traditional ways of life" - how could these wicked ideologues, opportunists and malcontents shatter them if those slaving for the rich, were not deeply dissatisfied with their lot? And for a godbot to talk about "illusory future bliss" - bwaw-haw-haw! "You'll get pie in the sky when you die" eh? (From Joe Hill's "The Preacher and the Slave" - see, I can quote too.)
By the way, you needn't bother answering #103; I've worked it out. A lifetime of truckling to authority and swapping quotations has left you unable to function in any other way - you think that finding an apt quotation is argument, and the more "exalted" the source, the stronger the argument.
Nerd of Redhead:
I'm willing to bet the Roman Catholic Church is one of the largest providers - if not the largest single provider - of charitable aid (hospitals, schools etc) on the planet.
On this day of peace and worship, we must reflect upon the truth that we must protect the poor from the homosexuals and the transsexuals.
LOL
The Pope's Christ mass today was actually quite bad,and contained all the goodies youve come to expect from a bigoted senile kook that controls 2 billion deluded fools ....
Janine,if you ask me,Id prefer a party with gays and transsexuals over one with christians anytime !!!
Just because you're "willing to bet" does not make it true - citation please? And that bit of failed apologetics still doesn't account for the RCC's maintenance of massive reserves of cash, not to mention opulent palaces and extravagant finery, all while the majority of their followers live in some form of poverty, ranging from mild to abject.
And giving aid to charity doesn't even begin to make up for the damage they have done and continue to do to the human race by vehemently opposing contraception efforts that could mitigate both our problem with overpopulation and the rapid spread of HIV/ AIDS and other STD's. It is simply a token gesture from an otherwise unresponsive, authoritarian religious organization far more concerned with their own continued existence than the actual well-being of those who put so much trust in them.
I'm willing to bet the Roman Catholic Church is one of the largest providers - if not the largest single provider - of charitable aid (hospitals, schools etc) on the planet. - Piltdown
Possibly it is - though on a scale dwarfed by what taxation-funded governments do, and its schools are largely indoctrination institutions. Then you get sick shits like "Mother Teresa", sucking up to dictators and denying patients pain relief while telling them to "dedicate their suffering to God". It's also one of the largest-scale killers on the planet, by its opposition to contraception, and in particular its brazen lies about condoms allowing HIV through.
Last week, Diane G left this link in response to the tripe about the religious setting up hospitals. Oh, and Hoax, please let us know when the Catholic Church will not try to impose it's religion on to the people who are employed at those hospitals.
Pilty, once governments started providing social services like hospitals and the dole, religious institutions became redundant. Your church is irrelevant to modern day life. Like it or not, that is the truth.
Pilty,
it was not too long ago that the catholic church in Australia used its monopoly on Hospitals to hold the government ransom over abortion issues,threatening withdrawal of funding and closing maternity wards.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/23/2372460.htm
Im sure you would be able to reconcile that with your belief somehow as well.
I'm willing to bet that the Roman Catholic Church is one of the largest enablers, probably the largest single enabler, of pedophile rapists.
I never knew they were mutually exclusive groups.
I don't care what anyone believes as long as they don't proselytize to me and they live the ideology they are espousing for everyone else. If they don't blab to me about Jesus, I won't tell them what credulous fools they are. Cheers!
I'm willing to bet the Roman Catholic Church is one of the largest providers - if not the largest single provider - of charitable aid (hospitals, schools etc) on the planet.
I'm willing to bet they aint, what are the stakes we're betting exactly?
You say "one" of the largest, what is your margin, how many fall into this category?
How much of their income as a percentage of the whole, do they spend on themselves?
Hate to get all biblical on your arse but remember the parable of the widow's mite?
Posted by: E.V. | December 25, 2008
I never knew they were mutually exclusive groups. I don't care what anyone believes as long as they don't proselytize to me and they live the ideology they are espousing for everyone else. If they don't blab to me about Jesus, I won't tell them what credulous fools they are. Cheers!
Humm... At all of the parties I have been to that has been full of the gays and the trannies I did not hear much talk about the christ. Maybe some goddess babble but I just let it pass.
Happy Monkey!
Nick Gotts @ 103/112:
One of the basic tenets of traditionalism (I'm not a conservative because there's nothing left to conserve) is that there is nothing new under the sun. Originality is a grotesquely overrated virtue nowadays partly because the superstition of progress demands one always "make it new"; and partly because the superstition of equality assumes that everyone is capable of "thinking for themselves".
I am sufficiently aware of my own limitations to realise that if there's something I want to say, it's probably been said before by someone else and said better.
Brokensoldier @110:
One could say the same about artificial egalitarianism enforced by elite cadres of socialist state functionaries.
Certain religious leaders might be content to shlep around in an orange sheet. Not the Vicar of Christ. Hypocrisy? Well, quite apart from Matthew 26: 7-11, there's also the warning against the hypocrisy of false humility in Matthew 6: 16-18.
Papal accoutrements may be more visually splendid than those of Bush 'n' Barack but I'll wager those democratically elected men of the people enjoy lives every bit as comfortable as His Holiness.
"Becket wore a hair shirt under his gold and crimson, and there is much to be said for the combination; for Becket got the benefit of the hair shirt while the people in the street got the benefit of the crimson and gold. It is at least better than the manner of the modern millionaire, who has the black and drab outwardly for others, and the gold next to his heart." -- GK Chesterton
So suck it up, guys.
Dear Wow Bagger at number 34,
You say,
My answer to you is that they were sincere laughs.
NS
http://sciencedefeated.wordpress.com/
Just like Jesus!
Piltdown Man, #86:
Er, no. There's no such thing as scientific truth. There's just truth. Science shows us what that truth is - like the earth is spherical and orbits the sun. The perception was that the earth was flat and the sun orbited it; science revealed the truth.
Of course, there's the possibility that it your god exists and is manipulating our perceptions, but then he'd be a lying son-of-a-bitch, and not the cute cuddle kitten you insist he is, wouldn't he?
Again with the song-lyric irony - you quote a band called Faithless? A pity you don't have them on higher rotation.
Oh, Pilty, how low you have fallen. False dichotomy - it encompasses both. Surely you're sophisticated enough to comprehend that, aren't you? If not, mix some sugar and salt together in a spoon, and taste it. What's that you say? Two sensations at once? It must be a miracle!
(My last reply appears to have got sucked into the Comment Pending Void, from which nothing of mine has ever emerged. Try again.)
Nick Gotts @103/112:
One of the basic tenets of traditionalism (I don't call myself a conservative as there's nothing left to conserve) is that there is nothing new under the sun. Originality is a grotesquely overrated virtue nowadays, partly because the superstition of progress demands one always "make it new"; and partly because the superstition of equality assumes that everyone is able to "think for themselves".
I, on the other hand, usually assume that if there's something I want to say it's already been said by someone else who said it better.
Brokensoldier @110:
One could say exactly the same about the artificially imposed uniformity of quasi-socialist societies, enforced by cadres of elite state functionaries who do very well out of holding the keys to the supposed egalitarian future.
Hypocrisy? Quite apart from Matthew 26: 7-11 and the warnings against false humility in Matthew 6: 16-18, I would suggest that while papal accoutrements might be more visually splendid than those of Bush 'n' Barack, those democratically elected men of the people enjoy lives every bit as comfortable as His Holiness.
"Becket wore a hair shirt under his gold and crimson, and there is much to be said for the combination; for Becket got the benefit of the hair shirt while the people in the street got the benefit of the crimson and gold. It is at least better than the manner of the modern millionaire, who has the black and drab outwardly for others, and the gold next to his heart." - GK Chesterton
Nick Gotts @ 112:
A determined and unscrupulous minority is perfectly capable of imposing ideologically motivated social change on a supine population, a revolution d'en haut.
'Tis Himself @121:
Since most of these could more accurately be described as homosexual ephebophiles, perhaps Janine @114 has a point.
Wowbagger @127:
In other words, anything that cannot be expressed in scientific terms has no truth-value?
I wasn't aware anyone ever believed the Earth was flat, although I admit I am am drawn to neo-geocentrism.
You're using one of the disproofs of that notion in order to type those very words.
Sheesh.
That is a caricature of a definition, and demonstrates both dishonesty and hypocrisy.
Really, the original sense of "bigot" seems ever-more applicable.
Yet you enjoy the very latest in modern entertainment, and cite that as well.
In other words, the ostentation of the Church is even more unnecessary than that of the secular wealthy and powerful.
I admit it: I find Piltdown endlessly entertaining. He's come out with some of the nuttiest statements I've ever read.
The real Kenny.
He drops in like a guest star on Trawling for Trolls.
Bye Kenny! You just had to dump that smelly John 3:16 turd. Thanks, another chamber pot to scour.
Piltdown Man #128
SC, OM - I think Piltdown is amusing too, but I wonder if he 'confesses' to hanging out with the godless? Worse yet, does he admit to reading PZ's blog, which must be a mortal sin?
How many Our Fathers do you have to say to wash off the witches, bitches, manwhores, atheists and gays Pilty?
Actually, he's called for castrations all around.
Piltdown man wrote:
Nice try. But Non-abstract concepts weren't what you were referring to when you wrote this in post #86:
Emphasis mine. You're talking about our ability to use science to understand reality - not abstract concepts. I managed to learn something from those extended discussions with Eric a few weeks back.
Seriously? I'm very disappointed; I thought you knew your bible better than that - it sounds like you need a refresher course. Why, in only a couple of minutes on Google I found this site which has a breakdown of the verses pertaining to a flat earth.
So the ancient Israelites believed the earth was flat; funny how their god never bothered to tell them that. I wonder why that was? Oh, that tricksy god. He just loves to mess with us humans, doesn't he?
Patricia @131:
Perhaps this is more to your taste!
LITURGICAL READING OF MIDNIGHT MASS
SOLEMNITY OF THE NATIVITY
From the Roman Martyrology
In the twenty-fourth day of the month of December;
In the year five-thousand one-hundred and ninety-nine from the creation of the world, when in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth;
In the year two-thousand nine-hundred and fifty-seven from the flood;
In the year two-thousand and fifty-one from the birth of Abraham;
In the year one-thousand five-hundred and ten from the going forth of the people of Israel out of Egypt under Moses;
In the year one-thousand and thirty-two from the anointing of David as king;
In the sixty-fifth week according to the prophecy of Daniel;
In the one-hundred and ninety-fourth Olympiad;
In the year seven-hundred and fifty-two from the foundation of the city of Rome;
In the forty-second year of the reign of the Emperor Octavian Augustus;
In the sixth age of the world, while the whole earth was at peace-- JESUS CHRIST eternal God and the Son of the eternal Father, willing to consecrate the world by His gracious coming, having been conceived of the Holy Ghost, and the nine months of His conception being now accomplished, was born in Bethlehem of Judah of the Virgin Mary, made man. The birthday of our Lord Jesus Christ, according to the flesh.
All kneel ...
*snrk*
All that's missing in that list is "as miscalculated by Dennis the Short"...
Oh, and "In the twenty-fourth day of the month of December - the birthday of Sol Invictus". Ah, pagan roots.
*snrk*, again.
Really? Surely you've heard, "Jesus - Mary, what are you wearing?" at some point during the evening... ; P
Now Pilty it isn't fair for you to single me out for your attention. You're just proving once again that catholics have a madonna/breast fixation among the general faithful.
If you were a priest you wouldn't look at me once. It's christmas after all Pilty, flirt with the men and boys too.
ummmm.... ummmm.... blech.
Pat Condell ... redux PC? anyone.... anyone?!
blech!
Owlmirror @137:
Pagan schmagan. The Feast of the Annunciation is March 25.
It would be a lot better if he could sing or write a decent melody.
I thought he was the best thing since Tom Lehrer the first time I heard a couple of his songs, but I must admit that they don't really hold up to repetition. Kind of like the Star Wars movies.
-jcr
"Kind of like the Star Wars movies."
YES. But what movies Do hold up to repetition really well? OH yes, very off topic, my bad.
Am I supposed to be impressed that someone thought, "Hey, when is nine months before the winter solstice?"
Sheesh.
I know the room is against me here, but when I read that I though "Wow, Lehrer has an inflated opinion of himself."
Lehrer had a better ear for a catchy melody maybe and he was very good at clever lines that produce dry chuckles but Zimmerman always seems to be working in more dimensions. He's able to bring real pathos and anger into his songs and then he can turn sharply back to the humour and produce a real belly laugh. (As I said before the song here isn't a great example)
Meh, no accounting for taste I guess.
Wrong. The egalitarian future is in no way comparable to the idea that you cpontinue to live after your death. That is a blatantly false comparison. But thank you for that wonderful parallel you drew between piety and corruption - I think it works quite well.
Yes, hypocrisy. Presidents of our nation do not claim to talk - legitimately, that is, discounting Bush's lunacy - for any god(s) through the authority of their office, and do not presume to dictate to the religious what will win them favor with those god(s) or not. Political leaders obviously do not choose to live by the mandate of the church demanding renouncement of wealth, but then again, they are not leading churches that demand that others do the same, all the while threatening that divergence from their "revealed truth" will result in eternal damnation. Religious leaders, however, that revel in such luxury - which describes the great majority of super-church pastors, televangelists, cardinals, bishops, and the Pope himself, most certainly are displaying an epic level of hypocrisy. You're quite good at creating strawmen, but your target rate in successfully knocking them down is abysmal.
Patricia @139:
I ache for the touch of your lips, dear
But much more for the touch of your whips, dear
You can raise welts like nobody else
As we dance to the masochism tango
Let our love be a flame, not an ember
Say it's me that you want to dismember
Blacken my eye, set fire to my tie
As we dance to the masochism tango
Your eyes cast a spell that bewitches
The last time I needed twenty stitches
To sew up the gash that you made with your lash
As we danced to the masochism tango
Take your cigarette from its holder
And burn your initials in my shoulder
Fracture my spine and swear that you're mine
As we dance to the masochism tango!
You are a naughty one Pilty. My whip collection was a secret.
Patricia, when a creepy, creationist cilice-wearing flagellant like Pilty begs for punishment, the most sadistic answer is, of course, "No."
Pilt's lyrics are by Tom Lehrer.
Sven, that looked a bit too clever for Piltdown Man.
Thanks Ken, I'm saving my twirling for tsg, he does so enjoy a good flouncing now and then. ;o)
Maybe he's waiting for someone to suggest a game of 'Priest and Altar Boy'...
Demon possessed much?
Ah-ha! 'Owlmirror' - that had been bugging me for months, finally a dimly lit little brain cell turned on. Owlmirror - Athena's eyes. My brain on sober, one candle power.
Did I get my mythology right?
brokensoldier @146:
Except for the fact that neither is attainable in this life.
But they do yap on about leading wars on poverty, wallowing in luxury while they exhort us all to make sacrifices to save the planet or the starving.
Papal splendour is for show and edification, not for comfort.
... my view at that time was, here's a rich church, Catholicism, next door is poverty, so it's hypocrisy. Obvious view. So I started digging, digging, reading, reading, getting into it, then I realized, the reason for the baroque church, the grand church in the poverty neighborhood is that, what the church is is a school... . A raggedy-ass guy won't go into a raggedy-ass temple. He says, "I'm living in a shithouse, what do I gotta go in one for?" But if you can show him something nice, he can understand, you can instruct him - Lenny Bruce
When you can't polish a turd*, roll it in glitter instead.
As for the Lenny Bruce quote - I agree with the concept: make it attractive so people will enter. Reminds a little of this...
But on Lenny Bruce - you can't possibly be unaware that he was fervently anti-religion, can you? Then again, you claimed you didn't know your own bible contains verses that describe the earth as flat, so maybe you could. That you'd quote the man desribed as 'the original comedic Catholic Church-basher' to defend it is irony beyond delicious.
*Yes, I'm aware of what Mythbusters did. Too bad. I'm not abandoning one of my favourite expressions.
Eulenspiegel. Till Eulenspiegel.
lol
Pilt claims to say a strong and solemn "no" to modernism, but the things he chooses to cite say "yes, yes, oh god, please, yes"
Um, ew. Did I really just type that?
David @157 - I beg your pardon, I'm another American ignorant of any language but English.
So I'll guess that Eulenspiegel means beautiful eyes. :o)
A determined and unscrupulous minority is perfectly capable of imposing ideologically motivated social change on a supine population, a revolution d'en haut. - Piltdown
One elite can certainly displace another - but if the majority of the population is simply "supine", they can't have had any attachment to the old regime, can they? Why don't they rise up in defence of their beloved masters? In practice, I can't think of any revolutions in the past few centuries that have not involved a mobilisation of the masses against the old elite - showing that many of them, at least, resent their servitude - although it is routine for them later to be betrayed by the new elite (as per Emmanuel Goldstein's theory of oligarchical collectivism). Still, two steps forward, one step back: most of the world's population now have at least some say in who governs them - for the first time in history, so there really is something new under the sun - and you just hate it, Piltdown!
Eulenspiegel. Till Eulenspiegel.
If you don't know something, write "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/" in front of it and hit Enter. :-)
Owlmirror @144:
Luke 1:8 inform us that Zachary was executing his priestly function at the time when Elizabeth conceived St John the Baptist. Research by Israeli scholar Shemaryahu Talmon has shown that the priestly family of which Zachary was a descendent were required to officiate at the temple towards the end of September. (The traditional ecclesiastical date for St John's conception is September 23.) Luke 1:26 tells us that Jesus was conceived in the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy ...
Not that I'm suggesting the dating of the Sol Invictus festival was a coincidence - obviously the pagans were granted a dim prophetic foreshadowing of the true Light that shines in the darkness, the unconquered Son.
Wowbagger @156:
Ever hear of Balaam's ass?
I honestly don't think those verses say or imply anything of the sort.
Owlmirror @159:
In a Christian society a particular cultural artefact emerges. This artefact is not completely anti-Christian because the dominant Christian culture is still too strong to permit such a thing; nevertheless it contains elements which are anti-Christian. Shock, horror, taboos are shattered, a blow has been struck against the dominant culture, a crack appears in the walls. This artefact can be seen as the first rung in a ladder leading down away from a Christian culture. Subsequently more artefacts appear in which the proportion of anti-Christian elements to Christian elements is greater. Eventually the anti-Christian elements predominate and we have a cultural revolution.
When this stage has been reached, the original cultural artefacts which at first seemed so shocking and transgressive now seem rather quaint and innocent. This is because they still bear significant traces of the Christian culture they were rebelling against.
For a beleaguered Christian living in this phase of history, such artefacts have an ambivalent character -- on the one hand he realises that they were originally rungs leading down the ladder to cultural degeneracy; on the other hand, from the perspective of the current situation, they can be seen as rungs leading up away from it back to sanity.
Nick Gotts:
Sometimes they do.
Or that they've been stirred up & propagandised by cunning demagogues: Now the chief priests and the elders persuaded the people to ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus.
Which implies that a leader's legitimacy is determined by popular support?
Wrong - one is highly improbable, while the other is supernatural. In short, one is possible within the bounds of our world, and your afterlife - by definition - is not.
That matters not within the bounds of your argument. Religion demands obedience at the price of damnation is the supposed afterlife. Politicians do not.
That is an equivocation steeped in bullshit. Is the kissing of the papal ring by all followers also for "show and edification?" Obviously, you will answer yes instead of realizing that it is an overt show of superiority on the part of the supposedly infallible head of the church. You can make excuses all you want, but whether or not the defined reason for such hypocrisy is comfort or not, such luxury provides extreme comfort at the expense of their tithing followers who are commanded to shun materialism and excess wealth. That, by definition, is hypocrisy - regardless of how you try to spin it.
WTF?! [...]
I assume you are referring to this:
Pilt? That last sentence cannot be correct.
No matter how you calculate the New Year in the Hebrew calendar, it will never be the case that the "first month" is the equivalent of February. And I am certain that Shemaryahu Talmon himself said no such thing.
You're using disingenuous scholarship which is wrong (on the internet).
<*eyeroll*>
Just as "obviously", Christians were granted a dim prophetic foreshadowing of the truer Light that shines in the darkness, the bright Angel Moroni.
Piltdown wrote:
The only ass here is the one you're talking out of.
That you could write that makes me suspect that the area in the bible with which you're having implication issues is the part where it condemns 'bearing false witness'.
Piltdown:
As exemplified in Acts 17, 18 & 19.
For a beleaguered Christian living in this phase of history - Piltdown Man
Ah, poor ickle diddums!
Sometimes they do.
That's a picture Piltdown, a picture. Not an argument or an example - you don't even say where it's from.
While we're at it, you have claimed with great confidence that the abolition of poverty is impossible. What is your argument for that? (No, a quotation is not an argument, however allegedy exalted the alleged source.)
Or that they've been stirred up & propagandised by cunning demagogues
Again, how would this be possible if they were happy with their lot? Let me try your technique, and a quote from one of your favourite authors, JRR Tolkien:
"I must have something to work on. I cannot burn snow!"
Which implies that a leader's legitimacy is determined by popular support?
No, it implies that for people to have a say in who governs them is a good thing, because it provides a check on bad government, although of course it does not guarantee good government. What do you mean by "legitimacy"? I suspect it's just more of your essentialist crap.
By the way, "There is nothing new under the sun" is possibly the stupidest claim even you have made - and that's saying a good deal. Aside from the example of political democracy, and the continuing advance of mathematics, science, history and other forms of rational enquiry; never before has world population been so high, never until 1945 were there nuclear weapons, never until 1969 had human beings landed on the moon, never has so large a proportion of the world's population been literate... I really could continue indefinitely. Do you ever actually think about the half-witted platitudes you spew?
David @162 - Thank's for that link. Another prankster, I don't think we can ever have too many of them.
Piltdown Man if you actually believe in Balaam's ass then I give you up for a complete idiot.
Note also Matt 10:21, and better yet, Matt 10:34-36. There's a cunning demagogue.
He's citing the bible. Since the bible was perfectly inspired by God, it requires no thought whatsoever on his part.
Of course, he's also citing the same book that has this choice verse:
Or that they've been stirred up & propagandised by cunning demagogues: "Now the chief priests and the elders persuaded the people to ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus."
And if you can't gloss that as a very slightly coded expression of Mark's belief that the disasterous outcome of the Jewish War was the result of the Palestinians' support of the revolutionary Zealots over the pious and more passive resistance of eschatological Essenes against Roman hegemony, then you don't understand either the Gospels or 1st century history.
Not that I'm surprised.
Owlmirror @165:
I thought the Jewish "New Year" wasn't the same as the first month of the Hebrew calendar?
Nick Gotts @168:
Sigh. Look at the picture, what do you see? Irregular soldiers fighting blue-coated troops. A white banner bearing the words "Vive le Roy". The emblem of the Sacred Heart. Do I really have to spell it out?
Given the multifarious and perennial causes of poverty (inequality in resources, ability and fortune) the only way to eliminate it would be through an exercise of social engineering awesome in its magnitude, coordination and degree of coercive potential. It would never work.
Or the act of a benevolent, loving god. But we both know that's not going to happen, is it?
God simply isn't powerful enough to go against the current inequity in society ;)
CJO @ 172:
Sure it isn't a very slightly coded expression of internal dissension within an underground 1st-century psilocybin cult?
Alright, fess up. Who left those iron chariots out where they'd keep God away?
God can't even regrow an amputated limb. A salamander can do that, evolution 1 God 0.
God thought π = 3.0; mathematics 1, God o.
I'm guessing you completely fail to see the use in an asymptotal approach* to anything. however, a good number of countries have already successfully reduced poverty to near non-existence, and the people living in those countries don't particularly feel coerced by the universal education, healthcare, and social safety net that got them there.
*trying to get as close to something as possible, while knowing that you can never actually reach the goal; you can get closer and closer and closer though.
God can make his image appear on a piece of toast. Can your evolution or mathematics do that? :p
No, but a toaster can ;)
I worded my sentence very carefully so as to avoid getting into the problems of autumn-first vs spring-first calendar calculation. Life's too short, and you don't care anyway about such trivia unless it supports Catholicism. Which it doesn't, boo hoo.
But my point stands: The "first month" is in the spring (or possibly autumn). Never late winter. Never.
Look at the picture, what do you see? Irregular soldiers fighting blue-coated troops. A white banner bearing the words "Vive le Roy". The emblem of the Sacred Heart. Do I really have to spell it out? - Piltdown
Er, well, but it's not a photograph, is it? Nor, I am prepared to bet, was the artist sitting there with his easel, capturing the scene as it happened. It comes from someone's imagination, like your god. Now it may reflect some aspect of reality, or it may not. We need proper historical sources Piltdown, together with some critical study of those sources form a range of viewpoints. Do you understand?
Given the multifarious and perennial causes of poverty (inequality in resources, ability and fortune) the only way to eliminate it would be through an exercise of social engineering awesome in its magnitude, coordination and degree of coercive potential. It would never work.
Utterly feeble. How do you know it would never work? People like you said mass democracy "would never work", right up to the time it did (I know you loathe it, but it continues to function, even in a society of a billion people of a vast range of ethnic and religious backgrounds, with much poverty and considerable illiteracy). Some modern societies have come close to abolishing poverty in societies of millions. You hate the very idea of poverty being abolished, of course - and from your point of view, rightly, since it would prove the alleged words of Jesus wrong, greatly reduce the human suffering on which your kind batten, and thus speed the decline of religion.
I am going to follow the Hoax's example and believe every cover of every bodice ripper. History is filled with Fabio look a likes towering over fair virginal women in tight dresses.
But what movies Do hold up to repetition really well?
Oh, there are many movies I'd watch anytime. Any of Akira Kurosawa's films, any Charlie Chaplin movie, I could go on and on.
-jcr
I wonder what would happen if you put a toaster inside an iron chariot? Or made a toaster from an iron chariot?
Perhaps it could be a niche market for militant atheists:
"Are you tired of the image of God appearing in your morning toast? Well, we've got the perfect solution!"
Now all we need is a catchy name and slogan...
Owlmirror, I'll have to defer to your knowledge of the Hebrew calendar. When I get the opportunity, I'll chat to a Jewish acquaintance of mine about the dating of the eighth month.
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Nick Gotts @185:
Well they didn't have photography during the Vendée rising. (This appears to be a photograph of one of the freedom-fighters' sacré coeur patches.)
Janine @186:
Who knows?
Judy Weismonger @31:
So all those medieval depictions of the crucified Christ with nails through the palms were wrong?
Sheesh.
Still, at least one medieval depiction got it right, right?
Sheesh, Piltdown. Yes, you should strive for clarity, not for obscurity via recondite imagery. Would it have hurt you to link directly to the War in Vendée in the first instance?
@189, you link to yet another picture.
So, this guy was a real loser, eh? Defeated by an army of ill-trained conscripts, clearly God was not on his side ;)
I note that this was a counter-revolution.
Reviewing Nick's post @162:
You posted your obscure image reference in response to [1], but you then directly grant him [2]; the rebellion was a response to the new elite formed after the French revolution* (where the masses resented their servitude).
To sustain one small quibble, you've directly suppoted Nick's major claim. Heh.
* i.e. after the overthrow of the previous absolute monarchy with feudal privileges for the aristocracy and Catholic clergy.
Careful now.
The corsetry and hoops fans are sitting quietly to the side.
I see Pilty is still playing the weasel to show some relevancy for that outmoded church of his. There is no need for the church. Society functions very well without religion. Just ask your neighbors in Europe.
I've also heard the 'nails through the wrists' thing before, but nowhere especially reliable. But, considering they usually portray him as being far from Semitic in appearance, I'm not going to be surprised at where they'd draw the line for factual accuracy. I don't think I'd be basing any arguments on medieval art.
As documented by Catholic doctors, even:
http://www.catholicdoctors.org.uk/CMQ/2004/Aug/crucifixion_of_jesus.htm
Owlmirror, nice reference.
Barbet P. 1953. A doctor at Calvary. The passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ as described by a Surgeon. Roman Catholic Books. p 5-173.
Unsurprisingly, Dr. Pierre Barbet's studies have been criticised.
So all those medieval depictions of the crucified Christ with nails through the palms were wrong?
Wowbagger @194:
Owlmirror @195:
Did my sarcasm go undetected?
My point was that if medieval artists habitually misplaced the position of the nails - and I'm quite happy to accept they did - then it's curious that the Turin Shroud, a notorious "medieval forgery" should place the wounds correctly.
Pilty,
YAWN
who cares about the position of nails in paintings,or people? Its history,noone can verify anything that long ago anyway,even if the turine shroud wasnt the obvious forgery it is,that doesnt mean that god created the earth or men co-existed with dinosaurs,or any other foolish claim.
John Morales@191,
Thanks very much for the link. It's clear that the Vendée uprising did have a good deal of popular support, but also that it followed the imposition of conscription, as well as the anti-clerical measures of the revolutionary regime. It would take a good deal of investigation to determine how far the rising was "in support of their beloved masters", as I originally phrased it, rather than against the exactions of the new elite - but I'd concede it's an arguable case for Piltdown. Nevertheless, the French Revolution relied for its occurrence and survival on mass support from the peasants as well as the urban middle-class and proletariat - in most of France they joined enthusiastically in looting and burning the mansions of the nobility. This support enabled the revolutionaries to defeat a general European coalition in the War of Intervention of 1792-7, before over-reaching by launching their own war of aggression in 1798. The Bourbon restoration imposed on a defeated France in 1815 was a fragile and artificial construction, which disintegrated partially in 1830, and completely in 1848.
As to Piltdown's use of images, it's my hypothesis that he actually thinks (in so far as he does so at all) in images, quotations, and Latin tags, not in terms of evidence and articulated arguments. Whether this is a result of the deliberate cultivation of a medieval mentality, or whether conversely it is natural to him and explains his longing to return to the past, I couldn't say.
Considering what you write with a straight face (if one can be said to write with a straight face, that is; I don't really like mixing metaphors but that's the best way of expressing what I mean) you can't really expect us to be able to discriminate with much consistency.
Possibly because the artists were more focused on the aesthetics than accuracy. The forgers, on the other hand, probably did their research a little better - since it was, no doubt, a somewhat more well-informed (at least in a historical sense) audience they were trying to swindle impress. And it proved successful, since people believed it was real for so many years.
Then again, we're talking Catholics and pareidolia here; the bar isn't set that high.
Pilty, we can't recognise when you are being serious or not anymore because you believe in literal demonic possession. If someone told me they believed in angels or demons, I'd have a really hard time determining their honest answers from sarcasm.
if medieval artists habitually misplaced the position of the nails - and I'm quite happy to accept they did - then it's curious that the Turin Shroud, a notorious "medieval forgery" should place the wounds correctly.
The only evidence Jesus was nailed to the cross at all (rather than tied) is from the gospel of John, written long after his death (assuming he was a real person). By this time, sceptical questions were being asked about the resurrection, and the account of the resolution of Thomas's "doubts" may well be simply an attempt to answer these.
John 20:
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believe.
[Note: this text specifies "hands". It's been claimed that it is a mistranslation, and also that it isn't - there is a specific word from the Greek of the time meaning "wrist" . I don't know Greek.]
John's Gospel also recounts that large quantities of spices (myrrh and aloes) were applied to the body. No trace of these on the shroud. Really Piltdown, are you preferring a medieval fake (according to both the Bishop of Troyes and carbon dating) over the words of the bible? Shame on you!
Nick Gotts @169:
I wasn't whingeing about it, just stating a fact -- Christianity is in retreat and has been some centuries.
Obviously I wasn't denying the facts of political and technological change. However, human nature doesn't change.
Nick Gotts @185:
That "some" modern societies may have "come close" to abolishing poverty is no guarantee that a) that state of affairs will endure or b) that it can be extended to all societies.
As for democracy continuing to function, one could say the same about Frankenstein's monster. And right now, it appears to be coming apart at the seams.
Nick Gotts @202:
I'm sure you're aware there's been controversy over the carbon dating; at any rate neither scientists nor bishops are infallible. As for the spices, a quick internet search brought up conflicting accounts -- some sources claimed no aloe and myrrh have been found on the Shroud, other claimed traces had been found. The most authoritative-seeming statement I could find said: Aloe and myrrh were found by microscopic analysis (Baima Bollone 1983 and Nitowski 1986) but not by Heller (1983) and Rogers 2003).
So it looks like the jury's still out on that one.
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Couple of interesting news items for the new year ...
Piltdown, John 20:6-7 contradicts the shroud.
Shame on you!
However, human nature doesn't change. - Piltdown
Yes it does. The invention of writing changed it enormously, to give one example. Your dichotomy between "technological and social change" and "human nature" is a false one: it is our "nature" to be social tool-users, and the societies we live in and the tools we use, change us (they rewire our brains, for example). There is no unchanging "human essence" - that's just your usual essentialist delusion. Even if you mean our genetic inheritance, this too changes: we have on average smaller teeth and less robust skeletons than our ancestors of 20,000 years ago for example; quite possibly there are cognitive and emotional changes as well, as we adapt to living in mass societies. Moreover, if our civilisation survives, it will be within our descendants' power to change their genetic inheritance radically.
That "some" modern societies may have "come close" to abolishing poverty is no guarantee that a) that state of affairs will endure or b) that it can be extended to all societies.
It is not a guarantee; I never said it was. It was you who presumed to predict over the entire course of the future that poverty could never be abolished. You have yet to back this up with anything approaching an argument.
As for democracy continuing to function, one could say the same about Frankenstein's monster. And right now, it appears to be coming apart at the seams.
You wish! On the contrary, it is more widespread than ever before. Silly insults won't make the dreaded democracy go away, Piltdown. What is your evidence that it is "coming apart at the seams"?
I'm sure you're aware there's been controversy over the carbon dating; at any rate neither scientists nor bishops are infallible.
I'm aware there's a wholly manufactured "controversy", the alleged grounds for which keep changing, but the purpose of which is abundantly clear: to keep the money from the suckers flowing in. I'm also aware that the Catholic Church has refused to supply a sample for a second test, and has now carried out a "restoration" that could vitiate any future scientific study - well, well, what a surprise. What is most striking about the carbon dating is that the results agree completely with the entirely independent statement from the Bishop of Troyes about when the fake was created. As for the aloe and myrrh, if you give references, give them properly, so others can find and check them.
Gee, Pilt, I will certainly agree that the horrific amount of murder because of religious belief was a genocide... Just like the massacres of the Albigensians, Jews, Muslims, and other religious dissidents by the Catholics.
Sheesh.
Posted by: Piltdown Hoax | January 2, 2009
I wasn't whingeing about it, just stating a fact -- Christianity is in retreat and has been some centuries.
Some of us think that is great news. The question is this, is a more rational point of view taking it's place?