It's getting hot and nasty in the battle over the Texas science standards. Donna Garner, one of the members of the forces of darkness, has distributed a letter in which she claims that the atheists are winning Texas (I wish!), and that those of us who are working to teach evolution must be opposed more fiercely. And, of course, any accusation levied against scientists is perfectly fair. The kicker in her letter is a bit of slander:
Jeffrey Dahmer, one of America's most infamous serial killers who cannibalized more than 17 boys before being captured, gave an [sic] last interview with Dateline NBC nine months before his death, and he said the following about why he acted as he did: "If a person doesn't think that there is a God to be accountable to, then what's the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges? That's how I thought anyway. I always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all just came from the slime. When we died, you know, that was it, there was nothing...." (Dateline NBC, The Final Interview, Nov. 29, 1994).
Well, yes, of course! Why didn't we think of consulting a convicted and confessed sexual sadist and serial killer on matters of ethics and science? I guess this is one perspective in which the religious have an advantage over us atheists — they're already accustomed to regarding the clergy as authorities.
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Don't you get it? It's just like saying "Hitler was a vegetarian, therefore vegetarianism is good!"
Well Ol' Vlad 'The Impaler' Dracula was a Catholic. But I guess that's no surprise really.
We need to distribute a letter as well. One containing a quote that I learned here on Pharyngula.
"...Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirt of unity and cooperation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life."
--Adolf Hitler, 1933
I know that when I'm questioning my place in the world and whether an action I am considering undertaking is moral or not, I pick up my book of Jeffrey Dahmer quotations and see what he would do. WWJDD? Soon I'm back on track, picking bits of human spleen from between my teeth, content and fully aware.
Of course, Jeff Dahmer had a jailhouse conversion before being killed himself by another prisoner, and is, according to Christian theology, in heaven, while supposedly atheists who otherwise led a moral and decent life, are in hell being tortured for eternity because they did not believe/accept Christ as personal savior. That's f*cked up right there.
Christians can only shrug and say "I noes but dats teh rulz!"
If you're not a Christian, you're going to die
It's a pretty straightforward prediction: Teach evolution, expect more cannibalism. If only there were data that could be used to test that hypothesis.
But, and I know this has been noted thousands of times, it's not at all about religion. No, how can you think that?
Nevertheless, virtually every ID outlet warns against the evils of atheism, pointedly ignores religious evolutionists, and claims that a devotion to "materialism" is all that makes anyone evolutionist.
Which doesn't keep Egnor from whining constantly about how evolutionists Darwinists "misrepresent" the IDiots as if they were creationists, committed to theism.
Then again, they never were good at inferring anything reasonable from the evidence.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
Cough, splutter. Sorry, but a bit of baby just got caught in my throat. Sure takes a creationist to sus us atheists out - I mean, alongside Darwin and his best mate Hitler, Jeffrey D is always someone I can turn to when I want to know what to do with my one life.
Cannabalism and child murder - what else is there?
http://www.holysmoke.org/hs00/dahmer.htm
"Anger at his homosexuality led Dahmer to kill, psychiatrist says"
"I don't believe his behavior was sexually motivated," psychiatrist George Palermo said. "I believe Jeffrey Dahmer killed his victims because he hated homosexuality."
Hmm... I wonder if his self hatred and hatred of homosexuals came from his fundamental upbringing?
And Ed Gein's mother read the bible to him every night.
Jailhouse conversions are completely credible! Those prisoner on death row always tell the truth! Even cannibals! /snark
I dunno; given the moral fibre and intellectual capacity of creationists, would it be so bad if we started to consider them food?
Not to start another vegetarianism vs. omnivorism debate, but is it really more ethical to eat a cow than a bovine-brained, baby-blasting creationist?
The Crusades and Inquisition killed more than Dahmer.
"It's ok when we do it for Jeebus." I guess.
The criticisms of "macroevolution" in her letter are absolutely heinous, and oft refuted. I can only imagine that she and her cronies must sit with their fingers in their ears when the information is actually presented. The repeated comments about SBOE members "not following their faith" are disturbing as well.. do we really want everyone to bring their religion into the political arena with them on every issue? absurd.
Ok, it's my lunch break and the baby I put in the microwave must nearly be ready... deee-licious!
Does it REALLY surprise anyone when the insane go to OTHERS who are insane for quotes?
If it is printed PZ, it's libel. As far as I can figure out, she is libeling Jeffrey Dahmer if he truly converted prior to his death. This is convenient as the dead cannot sue and I doubt anyone would sue to save Dahmer's reputation.
The tone of the letter suggests its purpose is to raise funds. The fundies get really off the beam when they want to raise funds.
Dalmer believed in the theory of evolution and killed how many?
I can only imagine how many more he would have killed had he believed in the theory of plate techtonics. thank god he didn't believe in that!
As it has been foretold by the Blog of the Gods, the prophecy is coming to fulfillment:
http://www.blogofthegods.com/2007/07/11/jeffrey-dahmer-answers-in-genes…
"He that is far off shall die of the pestilence; and he that is near shall fall by the sword; and he that remaineth and is besieged shall die by the famine: thus will I accomplish my fury upon them."
--Ezekiel 6:12 (King James Version)
See, if only Dahmer had been a Christian he'd have had a kind and loving God as an example and everything would have been fine!
Christian Serial Killers:
http://home.comcast.net/~pobrien48/serial_killers.htm
Is there any proof that Dahmer actually said what is quoted here? I wouldn't be at all surprised if the quote is at best paraphrased or at most a complete phony.
Christians are used to taking the rantings of psychopaths seriously, aren't they?
I just feel obliged to quote Christopher Scarver, the guy who later killed Dahmer in jail by smashing his head repeatedly with a metal bar:
"God told me to do it."
It's sort of a divine irony :)
I remember that interview very well and remembered thinking that well... its mostly irrelevant what he thinks, and that he was just trying to rationalize his own issues in any way possible. for her to bring up someone so clearly mentally ill as an example of reason is just plain stupid. I can often brush off creationist stuff as ignorance but quoting that interview is just... who in their right mind would ever think that it has any meaning at all? Does she fully expect that the people against this policy will eat her? WTF.
@baudi
Im a huge fan of crime stories, ive read a lot of crime library...there was a killer in england creepily similar to dahmer, and the primary thing seemed to be that they both had serious separation issues. Most murderers get rid of corpses asap but they both felt less lonely with the corpses there. Dahmer was mostly trying to engineer a sex zombie who wouldnt leave him ever, murder wasnt the motive in what he did at all from what i have read, although death is kind of an obvious consequence to the stuff he was doing. He was left alone a lot as a kid when his parents got divorced, he had the fascination with dead animals thing going on for awhile before that though. One thing i found really interesting was how he had murdered someone as a teenager and managed to not get caught for so long, iirc he confessed to that one actually.
As far as I can figure out, she is libeling Jeffrey Dahmer if he truly converted prior to his death.
What? How can you libel someone by quoting them? I also don't think you can libel someone by describing them by what they've been convisted of.
PZ is saying she is "slandering" atheists with the Dahmer quote, not that she is slandering Dahmer.
"Texas creationists sink to a new low"
Actually, it seems their is no lowest level for them to sink, it's more like a black hole of stupid. They are in constant free fall, accelerating towards infinite idiocy.
@cliff nope its real. it was his last interview before he got murdered, i think dateline aired it but they waited a few years after he died to do it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcNEm1BpokM
there ya go.
*Don't you get it? It's just like saying "Hitler was a vegetarian, therefore vegetarianism is good!" *
Pick-o-the-nit: Actually, I recently heard that Hitler was not a vegetarian: That that's an urban legend or at the very least something he claimed to be but didn't actually practice (i.e. somewhere, there's a picture of him at dinner eating a steak or something, I don't know).
I thought the correlation was with Catholicism and cannibalism, according to their own doctrine.
Christians are used to taking the rantings of psychopaths seriously, aren't they?
When a psychopath claims to be atheist, obviously the atheism made him psychopathic. But when a psychopath claims "God told me to do it", well then he is just psychotic.
Well what do you expect if you go around telling people that religion is the only basis for morality?
The really scary thing is that a lot of these christians really believe that the only thing keeping people, that is, them, from becoming serial killers is the belief in a six thousand year old myth. God help us if they all ever lose their faith at the same time.
Off topic: Why does the spell checker in my browser care if i capitalize christian, but not if i capitalize atheist?
And why were my 'irony' tags deleted? (You know where they go, right?) I think I need to submit a change suggestion to standards commitee.
I dunno; given the moral fibre and intellectual capacity of creationists, would it be so bad if we started to consider them food?
Ew. No thanks. Creationists will swallow anything.
I just made the connection:
Dahmer used to eat people. Catholics eat people. Therefore Dahmer is a catholic.
Am I thinking like a cretard yet?
Ramirez believed that Satan told him to kill. Therefore, Satan exists. Maybe if they get rid of Satan the fossils will disappear too.
"If a person doesn't think that there is a God to be accountable to, then what's the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges? That's how I thought anyway."
If this is how Dahmer really thought, then he thought no different than the Christians who use this argument to show that morality depends on God. For both groups -- the psychopaths and the religious -- there's no empathy for others, no concern for fairness, and no self-control. Morality instead has been reduced to nothing more than obedience to commands -- commands which only have weight because they're enforced by an authority which hands out inescapable rewards and punishments.
This doesn't give us "objective right and wrong" in any meaningful sense at all. Nothing anchors our behavior to good, or evil, as commonly understood among people relating to each other. It's all external, and arbitrary. If God sent people to hell for failing< to murder and eat them, then murder and cannibalism are now "good" things. Anything goes, because there's no reasoning behind it.
All this talk of "accountability" takes our responsibility towards others away from the so-called moral agent, turning people into children following orders so they don't get hit. A thief who refrains from stealing only because there is a policeman on the corner is not acting as a moral agent, and putting policemen on corners -- or a Great Big Giant Policeman in the Sky -- isn't some sort of moral system.
Spreading this kind of thinking around would only create more Jeffrey Dahmers -- if anyone took it seriously. I doubt they do themselves. If you ask them, other people need to be enticed with heaven and threatened by hell, because they won't value Goodness otherwise. But they obey God gladly, because they love God, for being so Good.
Stupid argument.
Of course atheists never make ridiculous charges like that. No, never.
The point is not that Dahlmer is an expert on ethics, but that atheism "can" lead to a sense of amorality and moral unaccountablity. That is unquestionably true.
I read Darwin & accepted his theory of evolution by natural selection over 50 years ago, & I've been an atheist for over 50 years. I guess I just haven't had the time to indulge in a bit of cannibalism yet. Jeeez, will I ever get round to it?
That Dahmer did not see the point without God, does not mean the point is not there without God. Somewhat of an "Argumentum Ad Ignorantiam".
Why is anyone surprised at how low creationists can sink? Fanatics have always been capable of doing anything. The people who scream about morals and ethics rarely have any.
Greg, ...atheism "can" lead to a sense of amorality and moral unaccountablity. That is unquestionably true.
Where is your data to support this? Unless you can show me something that supports this statement, I shall consider you to be a fool.
And religiosity "can" lead to pogroms, crusades, and jihads (which are arguably themselves examples of moral unaccountability). Your point?
Greg: The point is not that Dahlmer is an expert on ethics, but that atheism "can" lead to a sense of amorality and moral unaccountablity. That is unquestionably true.
Not so much "can lead" but "does not preclude".
The same is true, however, of Christianity.
@38 Greg:
So can Christianity, as has borne out millions of times throughout history. So what's your point?
Greg @38:
The point is not that Dahlmer is an expert on ethics, but that theism leads to a sense of amorality and moral superiority. That is unquestionably true.
Fixed.
A truer statement has never been uttered.
The black hole of creationism will let no logic escape.
Greg, #38: The point is not that Dahlmer is an expert on ethics, but that atheism "can" lead to a sense of amorality and moral unaccountablity. That is unquestionably true.
Sure. And atheism "can" lead to sense of purpose and high regard for one's fellow humans. Religiosity "can" lead one to commit atrocities. And religiosity can lead one to commit acts of selfless sacrifice. Sometimes the sky "is" blue. Today it "is" an overcast grayish white.
Huh. Speaking of which, the American Family Association has sent me an URGENT "PERSONAL" EMAIL from Donald E. Wildmon or whatever saying that the stakes are high in Texas, and links to a page that.. doesn't load.
Maybe if I had more faith.
#35: Actually I hear Christians (especially Catholics) are high in cholesterol. Not to mention the risk of enteric E. coli infections from having to choke down all the BS that goes along with them.
Atheism encourages cannibalism?
This coming from a group who get together once a week to eat Jesus?
Yay! Mad LIbs!!!
Atheism "can" lead to a sense of unseasonable warmth and zany versillimitude. That is unquestionably agoraphobic.
Your turn!
"Jeffrey Dahmer got saved and was baptised weeks before he was murdered in prison. So, we can add Dahmer to the list of people that christians will see in heaven."
superstitionfree.blogspot
atheism "can" lead to a sense of amorality and moral unaccountablity
So can religion. "I'm not perfect - just saved." etc. After all, if you can get forgiveness at the drop of a wafer, why not have fun while you're here and apologize at death's door?
My personal opinion is that a lot of atheists want to cling to some kind of moral value system (it's a convenient term) in spite of the obvious observation that such a thing is not grounded in anything above and beyond kin-group or tribal affiliation, or some kind of self-chosen "value system." The fact that it's not grounded in anything more special than social consensus and individual choice doesn't really change anything - value systems are value systems whether they're injected into you by someone thumping you on the head with a bible, or as a result of an individual's deciding "this is how I choose to want to behave."
It also unquestionably true of Christianity or any other worldview, so it's more than a little dishonest of you to claim Garner's point is simply that atheism "can" lead to amorality. Garner and her ilk claim atheism "does" lead to immorality, which is nothing but an ignorant and bigoted smear aginst millions of people that have never harmed or insulted Garner or anyone else in the slightest. People like Garner are bigots plain and simple and your defending them is no less disgusting. Your statement's like defending an anti-semite by claiming he's just saying some Jews "can" be cheap, which is unquestionably true.
And then of course there's Dennis Rader, the BTK killer, who sat next to my father's cousin in the church choir for over 20 years and was one of the church leaders. He continues to profess a belief in God after his arrest and conviction.
God had quite a plan for him didn't he...
I saw that interview when it came out too, and you could tell that whatever wasn't quite right with Dahmer wasn't quite right with his father either. Both of them gave me the creeps. I felt bad for his mom, who seemed genuinely sorrowful and overwhelmed about the fact that someone she gave birth to had done such a thing to someone else's kids--like, what can she possibly say to the victim's parents? But his dad....brrrr! We live near where his parents used to live, and my mom brought up how bad she felt about Dahmer's parents to a local woman who lived almost next door to them. She said not to feel bad for his father, because the guy really did have something wrong with him. Nasty bastard, so she claimed, who would break the necks of the local cats with his bare hands if they ventured onto his property. I don't know how true that is, but seeing those two together, I don't have a lot of trouble believing it. They're like a couple of peas in a psychotic pod.
And the way they brought up the supposed evolutionary-based inspiration for his crimes was extremely contrived. "well, dad, I want to thank you for giving me that great book about intelligent design, yadda yadda". "You're welcome son, now let's tell the viewers all about it". It was so obvious the two of them were bound and determined to shoehorn that into the interview somewhere. Every born-again type seems to have been some kind of hopeless criminal on the edge, or so they claim. Even if true (though Dahmer's crimes obviously are), I seriously doubt that any well-considered amount of atheism was a contributing factor, especially since their accounts of their prior atheism are so completely alien to nearly every atheist I've ever met--including myself. "Well, the theory of evolution destroyed my ability to think that I'm some special creation of a demanding magical sky fairy, therefore I felt it was necessary to go out and cannibalize a bunch of people. Feel free to apply this anecdote universally to every non-creationist (read: atheist) you meet." Nice.
Of course, my believing mother thinks I'm just being touchy when I get irritated at the lies and that that makes me as bad as the lying fanatics. Go figure.
"Why didn't we think of consulting a convicted and confessed sexual sadist and serial killer on matters of ethics and science?"
Well, of course, consulting him on matters of morals and ethics is just plain silly.
On the other hand his cookbook is sure to be a go-to reference for decades. And the innovative things he did with youth counseling, neurosurgery and window cleaner were breathtakingly edgy.
Greg@#38: "The point is not that Dahlmer is an expert on ethics, but that atheism "can" lead to a sense of amorality and moral unaccountablity. That is unquestionably true."
Atheism doesn't "lead to" moral unaccountability. A lack of empathy-based morality comes from emotional and psychological instability, in atheists or otherwise.
If your argument is that religions like Christianity can be used to motivate an imitation of socially-acceptable behavior in people who might otherwise be dangerous sociopaths, I agree. But the fact that a stable atheist does not need the external moral structure that an unstable Christian needs does not make the atheist any more likely to indulge in the antisocial behavior that might tempt the Christian.
#34:
Must be another side-effect of the abstinence-only education.
Someimes I really really wish that Jesus would reveal himself and spread his message of love, salvation, and forgiveness before murderers commit their crimes, instead of afterwards.
Oh, and Greg, you fuckwit, we atheists are (mostly) moral because we have to take responsibility for what we do, rather than have an all forgiving sky fairy to "redeem" us. We get heaven here on earth but hell is just a little mistake away...
I've never understood how "coming from slime" would be worse than coming from mud/dust.
On the other hand, I gather that it should be the fear of hell to keep the believer from committing evil deeds. Now, let us be honest, has anyone ever met someone believing in a god who doesn't approve of him/her? It cannot work that way.
So, did Jeffrey Dahmer also believe in standardized time zones? When these zones were implemented there was a huge storm of religious protest against them (and in come countries there still is) because of their "blasphemy" of stating that one o'clock in New York was not one o'clock everywhere in God's creation, thus advocating atheism, as well as the subjugation of the United States of America to an international standard!
Greg, has it ever occurred to you that Dahmer was having a last laugh at credulous people like you, as Ted Bundy played the anti-porn church ladies? ("It was porn! Yes! Not my fault!")
Actually, it would be libel/slander if you claimed Catholics were not cannibals.
Unless you want to rely on that truth defense, but that's risky. You have to prove that the bread isn't really turning into flesh, then.
But Mr Hemp, you know this can be dismissed because Dennis Rader was not a True Christian. He used the illusion of righteousness in order to hide his true atheist nature.
(Kidding about the name. I read about how you formed it.)
Posted by: Sven DiMilo | February 3, 2009 12:53 PM
Yay! Mad LIbs!!!
Atheism can lead to a sense of "acute smell" and addiction to "chocolate". That is unquestionably "tasteful".
Your turn!
Actually, it would be libel/slander if you claimed Catholics were not cannibals.
Unless you want to rely on that truth defense, but that's risky. You have to prove that the bread isn't really turning into flesh, then.
Catholics are not cannibals because the eucharist remains bread (its ) even as its substance becomes Jesus flesh. Got it? It isn't materially flesh, only spiritually flesh. But the spiritual flesh is the only "real" part but it is still accidentally bread. Doesn't that make perfect sense?
It's like kids pretending to smoke candy cigarettes. Except the kids know it's just pretend.
Jeffery Dahmer was a son of a Fundamentalist-creationist-first wife-abuser.
Got any statistics on that? Didn't think so, it was just a lie you made up.
Probably it is the other way around. Xians lie constantly and sometimes kill because they have a get out of free card. All they have to do is confess and believe in jesus and go to heaven anyway. The moslems have a similar deal, which is why flying jets into skyscrapers and killing 3,000 random people is considered by them to be a virtuous act.
The best proof the religion has nothing to do with morality is empirical. Atheists are at least as moral as the average for a society. Xians are no better. In a lot of cases, they are arguably worse. The fundie death cultists like greg and the kooks on the Texas SBOE (Garner, Mcleroy) are generally just plain, flat out, glaringly evil.
If a person doesn't think that there is a God to be accountable to, then what's the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges?
Umm, maybe because I have empathy and I genuinely care about other people. Any Christian who would be perfectly willing to kill me if there was some they wouldn't get in trouble with God is as evil as Dahmer. That's how we end up with abortion clinic bombers and homophobes who become violent. These people are sociopaths who just can't control their killing urges so they find some loophole to get around being punished by God.
When you get down to it, everyone of us do come from slime. The birthing process is rather messy.
meeting soon in your local church &/or polling place:
Schizophrenic Christian Cannibals for Darwin &/or Jesus
#35: Actually I hear Christians (especially Catholics) are high in cholesterol. Not to mention the risk of enteric E. coli infections from having to choke down all the BS that goes along with them.
Its not cannibalism, its recycling. I mean if your dear dad always loved his steak, don't you think he'd love to know he was honored by making him into one?
Her Majesty, the Queen of Assholes
"...you know this can be dismissed because Dennis Rader was not a True Christian."
You got me there.
True Christians only kill those who don't believe the way they do. But then it's OK because the rest are going to hell for eternity anyways. That God sure loves him some eternal torture and damnation. I guess that's what you do for entertainment when the boredom of eternity sets in.
Kill them all. God will recognize His own.
"Its not cannibalism, its recycling."
Go Green!
Soylent Green.
"If a person doesn't think that there is a God to be accountable to, then what's the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges?"
The point is if you're nice, everybody's happy. If you're not nice, then you're such a dick and we'll put you in jail for not being nice. Just be good, for goodness' sake.
Any other 5-year-old-ish question?
I really don't doubt that Dahmer used evolution as an excuse. Or even that Hitler used social darwinism (already a perversion of the science, that the Nazis further perverted) as excuse and propaganda.
I suppose one of the best responses is to ask about the many people who did evil deeds "because of their god," or some such thing. Andrea Yates, etc. Trouble is, when religionists use god as an excuse, that's automatically discounted via the True Scotsman's fallacy, while if a dickhead like Dahmer blames evolution, well, these clueless morons already knew it, so Dahmer has to be telling the truth.
Yes, bad thinking is very hard to get around, impossible in many people.
Perhaps more important, it just goes to show that they can never keep quiet about the fact that it's religion and religion alone that drives them. Even one like Dembski, who is among the most intelligent of that sorry lot (you know he's smart enough that he's flat-out lying much of the time), never fails for long to once again reveal that it's all about the invisible and undetectable god (unless, "gee, life's complex" counts as detection) with not a speck of concern about how science would fail if it tried to do biology as if it were designed.
Glen D
http://6mb592
Isn't there something fractally obscene about a Christian taking a moral (and scientific) lead from Jeffrey Dahmer?
Aha! I just listened to Steve Novella's 5X5 podcast. The topic was the logical fallacy: "poisoning the well". What a coincidence to see this fallacy so soon. Go Team! Reading blogs such as this are really honing my skeptical skills :)
If a mother tells her child to clean his room "because Santa Claus is watching," will she then blame the kid next door for the messy room when her child no longer believes in Santa -- all due to him?
Gee, maybe she shouldn't have made "Santa Claus won't bring you presents if you don't" the one and only reason to clean his room. She set up the situation; she has no right to complain. Not everyone in the whole world is going to conspire to make sure the kid believes in Santa till he leaves for college.
MadLibs!
Lancination can lead to a sense of ponderability and outlaw snobbery. That is unquestionably bleached.
Jeffrey Dahmer is the son of a Born Again Fundamentalist (Church of Christ) father. Jeffrey's Born Again Fundamentalist home life led him to feel he could not acknowledge his homosexuality to his Fundamentalist father, and instead he developed an intense hatred of himself and of other gay men.
Dahmer Likely To Turn To Religion, Expert Says
When Wisconsin minister Roy Ratcliff received a phone call that an inmate at a nearby prison wanted to be baptized, he had no idea that the prisoner in question was Jeffrey Dahmer--a man known worldwide for his crimes of murder, dismemberment and cannibalism.
"Oh, and Greg, you fuckwit, we atheists are (mostly) moral because we have to take responsibility for what we do, rather than have an all forgiving sky fairy to "redeem" us. We get heaven here on earth but hell is just a little mistake away..."
You know, there's a good argument to be made that atheists will be more moral than religious people who believe in an afterlife. An atheist only gets one chance. That's a huge incentive to keep his nose clean. Whereas religious people, specifically christians, can sin all they want as long as they repent and live happily ever after.
But I think social statistics already bear this out. What's the ratio of atheists to christians in the prison population again? Pretty damn low.
If God didn't mean us to eat people then why did He make them out of meat?
If we use the same logic, then what does this mean?
The BTK (Bind Torture Kill) serial killer Dennis Rader was a onetime president of the church council at Christ Lutheran Church and Boy Scout leader. At the time of his arrest Dennis had been married for 34 years and had two grown children. Steve Osburn, one of Rader's defense attorneys, said prosecutors' evidence against Rader included a confession, DNA and "personal trophies" Rader collected from his victims.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/27/national/main704342_page2.sht…
I miss the real woot and his boobies.
Most fundies believe that without the threat of punishment, no one will make a choice for goodness and decency, that faced with temptation (oooh, s...e...x... and theft) godless people will always choose wrong over right because of that reification of evil -SATAN.
http://www.anevolvingcreation.net/collapse/index.htm
Fun website that allows to examine and collapse the quote mining done by Don McLeroy, Texas State Board of Education Chairman.
@Equisetum #33,
In order to get tags in your text, use HTML entities (< or < for <, > or > for >, and & or & for &.) If you use the preview and post from there, you need to replace all the entities in the edit box because the posting software unhelpfully translates them for you.
I ALWAYS go to sociopaths for support for my arguements!
YEESH! What drivel!
Maybe we should consult "Dr" Kent Hovind
News flash: Jeffrey Dahmer's father, Lionel, is listed on the Answers in Genesis web site as a "modern scientist" who accepts biblical creation.
Lionel is a born-again young-Earth creationist, who convinced Jeffrey while in prison to adopt that label. After becoming a born-again Christian, Dahmer says that quote to NBC, then shortly after that is killed in prison.
It's clear that Dahmer post-hoc rationalized his crimes by blaming his father's bogeyman, evolution.
Here's one: Earle Leonard Nelson. Also known as The Gorilla Killer. Wandered around America in the 20s killing landladies and others. Was a devout Christian and read the Bible just about any time his hands weren't around some luckless woman's throat.
This quote is actually good news. If theists want to compare the number of people murdered in the name of science compared to the number of people murdered in the name of religion it is going to look mighty ugly for them.
Curt @ 94: Now it makes sense. Darwin made him do it! Just like Hitler, but those Hitler quotes are stale after Expelled.
You cannot defame a dead person. (Defamation encompasses libel and slander.) Regardless, it seems like PZ was using the term colloquially.
"Here, this is the argument we want to put forth. And to show how rational it is, here's a certifiably batshit insane serial killer who uses the exact same logic we do!"
I don't understand Jeffrey's logic;
There is no god and no afterlife.
-> Therefore nothing we do matters.
-> Therefore I'm going to kill and eat children?
I am unconvinced of this argument and am going to continue to refrain from such actions until a more convincing argument is presented.
I just got banned from a large web development forum where I was a member for over five years because of this issue in Texas.
Apparently even the web development world will ban your ass when you expose lies and deceit used by creationists as lies and deceit.
You will find that tread here:
http://www.v7n.com/forums/politics/110923-persecuting-christians-again-…
The funny part is that I got warned before I got banned because I had to "show respect" to the liars.
Seriously, when you want to get your portion of bizarre twists of logic read that tread, specially the last few pages. In order to stop me from exposing more creationist fraud they just banned me.
Ps. sorry to rant like this, I'm still pissed off for being censored like that.
@ Anthony K:
"Someimes I really really wish that Jesus would reveal himself and spread his message of love, salvation, and forgiveness before murderers commit their crimes, instead of afterwards."
Hear, hear. Another point along these lines that I've heard:
Jailhouse conversions are neither surprising nor impressive. Call me when a serial killer converts before getting caught, and is therefore inspired to turn himself in, and maybe I'll be impressed.
Actually Dahmer, the twice born again fundie and new oracle of fundie morality makes a common error. Repeated by Donna Gardner who is so taken by Dahmer's wisdom that she forgets to think.
Evolution is a scientific theory. It has nothing to do with religion or areligion for that matter.
In point of fact, most xians worldwide don't have a problem with evolution, catholics, mormons, mainline protestants. Evolution deniers are cultists, mostly from the south central USA.
Oddly enough, the vast majority of those who accept the scientific explanation of life's changes through time and the vast majority of xians in the USA, both well over 100 million citizens, are not cannibals. So quoting Dahmer proves what? Mostly that Donna Gardner is a braindead, bigoted, kook from a toxic cult and with a toxic personality.
Perhaps we should consult Timothy McVeigh's views on Christianity, given that he was an "expert" in the same way that Dahmer was on atheism.
Xians not cannibals? Have you not been to a Catholic service with the ritualized eating of the body and drinking of the blood of Jesus? ;)
Oops, forgot about the jesus eaters. Must be because no matter how hard I try, jesus still looks like a cracker that came out of a plastic bag.
So, E.V., now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.
What does it even mean to put the word can in scare quotes just like Greg did upthread?
Can is a pretty straightforward concept, I'd say!
Re: It's just like saying "Hitler was a vegetarian, therefore vegetarianism is good!"
For the record; Hitler was not a vegetarian, was not gay, was not an atheist, was not a self-hating Jew. Hitler loved sausages, had several girlfriends over the years, and was Catholic. Timothy McVeigh was Catholic too.
Ferre #99
I read the thread which got you banned. Your sin was calling a creationist a liar. Unfortunately for you, the liar creationist was a moderator.
If Dahmer converted to religion then he wasn't a true atheist.
Referencing a serial killer on the evils of teaching evolution...
like referencing Iosef Stalin about benevolent leadership.
What do you expect from an idiot creationist aka Liar for jesus from Texas?
It's times like these that make me wish I lived somewhere else.
Posted by: Citizensmith | February 3, 2009 1:33 PM
Its not cannibalism, its recycling. I mean if your dear dad always loved his steak, don't you think he'd love to know he was honored by making him into one?
Dry rub or sauce?
Is this story about Dahmer even true? I haven't seen any corroboration (or debunking) anywhere.
It just seems suspiciously weird that this guy bring up the word 'evolution' when talking about, what amounts to, his insane sex life.
Like "yeah baby, I love it when you yell 'CHROMOSOME!' just before I blow my wad".
Does anybody talk like that?
Interesting. Garner's letter is all about religion and belief in god. She devotes one paragraph to "science", listing the "weaknesses", "...(1) the Cambrian explosion of life; (2) gaps in the fossil record; (3) the intractable origin of life chemistry problems; (4) the origin of information in the DNA molecule; and (5) irreducibly complex features..." not one of which can withstand the scrutiny of biologists of paleontologist with the exception of (3) which doesn't even fall within the theory of evolution. The rest of her letter is all about prayer, christianity, and religion. And she pretends to be concerned about science!!!
@Ferre;
It's always a problem in debates with religious people and religious apologists to write too much and to argue from any kind of authority - even if the "authority" is essentially all of science.
Instead the only way I've found that gets any success is to take only the main point the person is trying to make and respond with as succinct a rebuttal as possible, hopefully not quoting any sources (but having them handy if you get asked for them).
When people deny evolution or "macro evolution" - I merely say;
"Macro evolution has been directly observed as occurring by scientists. It's an observed and indisputable fact. We still don't know everything about the processes of specific cases of evolution, but we can be as sure that evolution actually occurs as we can be sure of the existence of anything other than ourselves"
If they ask for a source I send them this, plus whatever I can google (there are probably hundreds of examples).
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080417112433.htm
Religious people and apologists do not have the logic skills or debating ability to allow you to give complicated or in depth answers.
"I saw that interview when it came out too, and you could tell that whatever wasn't quite right with Dahmer wasn't quite right with his father either. "
actually his dad published a book where he discusses resisting weird dark urges that he had in his mind. He blamed himself a lot for what happened because he reproduced at all, but I dont really know how anyone could expect him to know that his son would have the same problem with urges to be violent/obsession with dead things. its really interesting that it happened that way though.
Donna Garner's letter can be used to play creationist bingo.
Here's a scary thought. There exists no object way we can count the number of psychopaths in the human population. Psychiatrist Hervey Cleckley (that's his name, I could not make that one up) wrote the textbook on psychopaths in which he pointed out that because they have no interest in therapy or a "cure" and only admit to mental illness to avoid punishment for their behavior, no one can know for certain the percentage of psychopaths in the population. The number of Christians who make the "no morality without God™ " argument scare the crap out of me. Fear of punishment is the only thing stopping you from rape, kill, pillage and burn?!
In the movie Collateral Jaime Foxx says to Tom Cruise's psychopathic hitman character "You're missing something most of the rest of us were born with." I couldn't say it better.
If it were just that, it wouldn't be half as scary. After all, we have mechanisms for punishment here on earth. The whole "there's no reason to be good without God" argument is truly horrifying because it suggests that no human punishment could possibly be fearsome enough to restrain their psychopathic urges. Nothing short of the certainty of infinite punishment is regarded as sufficient.
Unfortunately, the pit of creationist idiocy isn't really that much like a black hole. More like a naked singularity, as there is no event horizon shielding the rest of the universe from the accumulated stupidity.
Lack of moral fibre notwithstanding, it probably isn't a good idea to eat creationists. They're probably toxic.
As for "coming from slime" vs being made from "mud/dust", let's not forget that the slime came from mud and dust (carbon compounds and water).
I want my Baby Back
Baby back
Baby Back
Ribs
Get in my belly
""When people deny evolution or "macro evolution" - I merely say;
"Macro evolution has been directly observed as occurring by scientists. It's an observed and indisputable fact. We still don't know everything about the processes of specific cases of evolution, but we can be as sure that evolution actually occurs as we can be sure of the existence of anything other than ourselves"""
thanks that is just what I was looking for though I had never realized it before. It is hard to not get down in the mud and talk reason with stupid.
They forgot to add at the end of their letter, "in conclusion, it is obvious that all artists are racist fascists, because Hitler was an artist."
"The point is not that Dahlmer is an expert on ethics, but that atheism "can" lead to a sense of amorality and moral unaccountability. "
Oh, Greg, you're not very smart, are you? Know what else "can" lead to a sense of amorality and moral unaccountability? Christianity! Know what else? Being a Comedian! Know what else? Being a doctor! Know what else? Just being human!
I mean come the fuck on. Considering how many people who claim to be CHRISTIANS go out and do horrible things just goes to show it doesn't matter if you believe in a higher being or not: People can do horrible things to each other. It's not rocket science, dude.
@106
Can was also an excellent German prog-rock band from the early '70's. Kinda Teutonic Tangerine Dream vibe.
Oh gosh, well if our old pal Jeffrey said that, it MUST apply to all atheists!!! I mean, it's not like we couldn't quote some kooky believer are rebuttal could we?
Speaking personally, my lack of faith in an afterlife only made this life MORE precious. The notion of stealing what few years a person has on this world is a far higher crime in my mind than in that of someone who believes that a victim gets to live on afterwards.
No, the creationists are correct: there is no "macro-evolution". No fish gave birth to a frog, no velociraptor gave birth to a turkey, no cow gave birth to a whale, etc. "Macro-evolution" is an illusion caused by low sample rate. That is, each generation is a microscopic change from the previous, only if you skip a thousand or so generation do you start seeing "macro" steps. "Macro-evolution "is just the sum total of thousands of "micro-evolutions".
What is so stupid is denying "macro evolution" while accepting "micro evolution" is like saying you believe people can walk across a room but not across the country.