Oh, Canada, Canada…when will you learn?

Ridiculous question, but spanked anyway.

Is the third option an example of the "2% of poll respondents will chose any option?" postulate?

...What the hell is that about religion? IT'S NOT A RELIGIOUS QUESTION!

Globe and mail is so scary sometimes.

Is the third option an example of the "2% of poll respondents will chose any option?" postulate?

In the US. In Canada, I'd always thought it would increase to at least 10%. But now that the poll is being flooded, we'll never know.

That had to be on there huh? (Le Sigh): "I won't answer a question about my religion"

This post has been here all of 9 minutes and the poll has already shifted to 49% - 49%. What excellent minions we are!

By the way, PZ, on that subject... when do we get our "Henchman"/"Minion" t-shirts?

In other news, the pope believes condoms are part of the problem!

Yes 50% 4575 votes

No 48% 4410 votes

Shock news on the Pope though - turns out the Pope does shit in the woods

More interesting would be a follow-up poll where "evolution" is replaced with "gravity".

I didn't see the poll when I clicked the link, but did see:

Pope says condoms not the answer to fighting AIDS

In his first trip to Africa as pontiff, he says distribution of condoms ‘increases the problem'

Hmm, I would need to answer that poll with NO, I don't believe evolution, I know evolution for a fact. But that would throw off the vote.

I won’t answer a question about my religion

Eh? Internet polls are always shite, but you could TRY to make it meaningful.

I won't answer a question about my religion

WTF? I take it the Globe and Mail is some sort of right-wing tabloid?

I think the third option is an effort to be cute, since it's the response Minister of State for Science and Technology, 'the honorable' Gary Goodyear gave when asked about his views on evolution. BTW, Goodyear's bloody-minded response to anyone who criticizes him is a perfect match for our present PM, who is a big fan of Karl Rove-style negative campaigning. An ugly piece of work who was a perfect fit with W, but now pretty much out of fashion everywhere but here.

Nope. The Globe is actually somewhat left-leaning. I think the third option is making a reference to something stupid our horrible Minister of Science and Technology said recently.

So I kind of don't get it. Isn't the third option just like saying "No. I don't believe in evolution for religious reasons but I don't want to look stupid."

Why the long winded option? For goodness sake, it looks even more stupid than just saying no. If they're going that direction then they need a fourth option that says "I don't 'believe' in evolution because it isn't a belief system."

I'm ashamed to be Canadian today. I cannot fathom that almost 1 in 2 do not "believe" in evolution. When did we drop to the level of America?

if you take it to be a question about your religion, surely answering "3" is indeed answering a question about your religion, thus you have answered a question you said you wouldn't answer.

SPOING

In his first trip to Africa as pontiff, he says distribution of condoms ‘increases the problem'

Why does anyone even quote this wackaloon? Weren't there any raving street people available?

Put me on the front page, Globe (not a street person--yet--but I can do the 'raving' part). You may quote me as saying: 'It's my opinion that it's more distributing the pope that increases the problem.'

When did we drop to the level of America?

My guess? It was right about the time you started thinking that stereotypes about the respective educations of Americans and Canadians are to be believed.

Why does anyone even quote this wackaloon? Weren't there any raving street people available?

Yes, but they don't have Herr Ratzinger's fabulous wardrobe or a bulletproof Popemobile.

Nope. The Globe is actually somewhat left-leaning. I think the third option is making a reference to something stupid our horrible Minister of Science and Technology said recently.

Ahh, yes. Just read the post previous to this one, and now it makes some sort of sense.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090317.wgoodyear16…

Wow... Gary Goodyear used to be a customer at my work when I lived in Cambridge. Seemed like a nice guy, but if he really thinks science and belief have anything to do with one another, he needs to be out of there.

You might as well add an option, "I will not answer a question about the shoes that I wore yesterday."

Well, as for the actual situation in public thought, perhaps we can take heart in the fact that Pew Research has shown a year ago that most of the younger generation accept evolution.

The Globe is less reactionary than the Conservative party, the National Post and most of the U.S. media, but I sure wouldn't call it "left".

Creationist quote mine

"Spank that puppy, won't you?"

PZ tells his minions to abuse animals.

I suppose after the question "do you believe in evolution" there had to be a choice for "I won't answer a question about my religion." Not that "believe in evolution" shouldn't do, but it doesn't any more, thanks creationist equivocation.

Sure, not answering questions about religion might formally be aimed at the creationists, but since when has creationism been about leaving others alone? We wouldn't have those polls if they'd shut up and quit trying to have their beliefs taught as truths.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592

Oh, I just read the earlier post, so now I know why "I won't answer a question about my religion."

They're laughing at Goodyear.

And yes, creationists will shut up about their religion--when they're trying to insert it by stealth. Not that they're very stealthy, mind you.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592

Yes
5%
5877 votes

No
42%
4499 votes

I won’t answer a question about my religion
2%
215 votes

Not "believing" in something that has overwhelming empirical evidence doesn't make it go away, just as "believing" in something that there is no evidence for doesn't make it true.

I don't answer questions about my toaster.

Oh, I see. It is a joke about Goodyear. One wonders why they even attempt to disguise anti-evolutionism as "intelligent design" in the first place when it is obviously about religion.

I also "believe in" gravity. But you can never be too sure.

phew...... I wish you'd explained that this was a joke on their part. I was getting really furious. That's what I get for not reading the previous thread first.

To the other Adam at #25:

It depends on how you define left. They are typically seen as being a "Liberal" paper in the same way that the Sun is typically seen as a "Conservative" paper.

Here's an interesting quote from historian David Hayes, regarding the Globe and Mail:

"...took a benign view of hippies and homosexuals; championed most aspects of the welfare state; opposed, after some deliberation, the Vietnam War; and supported legalizing marijuana."

As a matter of fact, though, the Globe and Mail has, at various times, both endorsed and rejected the Liberal party and the Progressive Conservative part. Its also come out in favour of the NDP in a couple of provincial elections.

The Grope and Flail is our "national newspaper", and by far the best in Canada. Which tells you a lot about the state of our print media.

They do daily polls, most are related to a news item, hence the phrasing and 3rd option as they match the article.

We're stuck with our idiot government until the opposition gets high enough in the polls to bring them down on a confidence vote. Which isn't likely for the next year. Sigh.

@ #32

I would like to see "believe" and "belief" stricken from the vocabulary. They are 2 poorly structured concepts IMO.

So I have a choice that says I will not answer a voluntary poll question?

Weird.

It looked a lot to me like the Globe moved a smidge more toward the progressive around the time the Post was launched. Probably as a deliberate differentiator, in part. But even given that shift, it still reads as pretty much pro-establishment, overall. I think of 'em as pretty centrist, now, so far as such labels are useful... Sorta paper yer average Bay St. businessthing can read without having to defend being seen with it to his colleagues on either side of the spectrum.

That has to be a joke, so the only appropriate answer is C - which I voted for. Showing 1) my (poor?) sense of humour and 2) that I actually do think for myself. This to counteract claims by creationists that 'we' always herd-vote for whatever PZ "tells us to". Quel rubbish.

Posted by: arekksu | March 17, 2009 10:59 AM

if you take it to be a question about your religion, surely answering "3" is indeed answering a question about your religion, thus you have answered a question you said you wouldn't answer.

SPOING

But we all know that Evolution is a religion like the rest of them, so the privacy cuts both ways, dontyaknow.

You've been reading too much Jesus & Mo.

Just sent this letter to the Globe:

Your poll question accompanying the piece on Gary Goodyear, "Do you believe in evolution?", fosters the erroneous idea (seconded by Goodyear in the article) that science is based on "belief".

Evolution through natural selection is not something to "believe", it happened. You can argue about the mechanism (gradualism vs. punctuated equilibrium, for example), but questioning whether it happened is akin to questioning heliocentrism.

The fact that our *science* and technology minister thinks his beliefs about evolution are a religious matter should immediately make him unqualified for said position. I thought the Globe and Mail would understand this and would report accordingly rather than with a pointless and misleading poll.

Sorta paper yer average Bay St. businessthing can read without having to defend being seen with it

Which makes it pretty conservative in my view.

You've been reading too much Jesus & Mo.

not enough jesus and mo.

Masturbation is murder!

Do you believe in evolution?

Yes
62% 7773 votes
7773 votes

No
36% 4602 votes
4602 votes

I won’t answer a question about my religion
2% 253 votes
253 votes

Golly, that makes me wonder...did jesus ever masturbate, you know, as a kid? If not, why not? Just wondering.

Of course the Globe and Mail is pro-establishment. It's a national newspaper, not the newsletter of an anarchist revolutionary cadre.

I think the vast majority of North Americans are also "pro-establishment" in this way. They may disagree on a number of issues, but they almost never question the central themes of our society.

Media (and individual humans) are judged as being "left" or "right" in relation to the centre, not by relating them to the viewpoint of the observer. If that were the case, I would have to consider the Liberal party to be right-wing. They're not. They're extremely boring centrists (I believe the term "entitled dicks" also came up today).

Do you believe the Sun will rise in the morning?

1. Yes
2. No
3. I won’t answer a question about my religion

Aaargh!! what an annoying question. I clicked 'yes' but begrudgingly. 'believe in' is just so annoying. It should be reserved for Pink Unicorns, Santa and other inventions of the mind. Please. I accept the theory, because it's tried and tested, based on the evidence.

Rant over.....

Do you believe in facts?

1. yes
2. no
3. only when it's convenient

"The real disagreement about what the neo-Darwinists tout, for which there's very little evidence, if any, is that random mutations accumulate and when they accumulate enough, new species originate. The source of purposeful inherited novelty in evolution, the underlying reason the new species appear, is not random mutation rather it is symbiogenesis, the acquisition of foreign genomes." - Lynn Margulis

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0903/S00194.htm

@#46 (reason be): FWIW, along those lines, I knew a fellow who claimed that he was kicked out of his seminary for openly believing that Jesus (in his human nature) must have masturbated. I've been informed by knowledgeable coreligionists of his, that his story is almost certainly bunk, so take it with a lump of salt.

Well you know how it goes with right wing rags. They all gotta be different in their own way. The Globe can't take the unmitigated capitalist greed stance since the National Post's racket. They really ought to stop delivering the Globe to Alberta though...

So Canada has a "Science" minister who won't admit to not agreeing with the theory of evolution because it conflicts with this religion.

Well could they possible expect anything else from someone who is a chiropractor? You know: on of those guys who says let me cure your ailments by taking incredible risks with your spinal cord.

#52: "FWIW, along those lines, I knew a fellow who claimed that he was kicked out of his seminary for openly believing that Jesus (in his human nature) must have masturbated."

So what if someone in the seminary believed that Jesus was impotent? Would that be OK?

Jesus was a Mule!

I like that: the get of two commensurable but not completely combinant species, 'gods' and 'man,' was sterile!

makes sense to me...

Oh sweet Jebus on a crutch, please ignore Gary Goodyear, he is one of so called conservative, socon, neo-clown, retards (hey, I'm being polite about him here) He has been in the news up here lately, and he is constant embarrassment to all of Canada. The fucking idiot thinks Jesus rode a dinosaur and the Earth is less than 6000 years old.

Ya, even up here in Canada, we have intellectually retarded people who are in charge of real import things.

[spank] Puppy [\spank]

Now at 68% for the good...

"Marshell Nelson" @51 is good ol' Charlie Wagner. Please to ignore.

The article which prompted the poll is to be found here:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090317.wgoodyear16…

And yes before it comes out, we do have a Cabinet Minister for International Trade, Stockwell Day, who is a young earth creationist, but at least there is comic relief.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockwell_Day

“Liberal activist Warren Kinsella mocked Day's belief in Young Earth creationism by pulling out a Barney doll during a television interview and stating that "this was the only dinosaur ever to be on Earth with humans". Media covering the Day campaign bus, nicknamed "Prayer Force One", whistled the Flintstones theme song to mock the idea that humans and dinosaurs co-existed.

The Alliance's direct democracy proposals, which would have required a referendum on any proposal supported by a petition signed by 3% of Canadian voters, was also frequently targeted as a suggestion of a hidden agenda. Some asserted that "special interest" groups would use the low requirements to put contentious subjects to a national referendum. The proposal was satirized by Rick Mercer of This Hour Has 22 Minutes, where he proposed a national petition for a referendum to demand that Day change his first name to Doris. Day was also a victim of an incident during the election. When making a "grand entrance" for a speech at Conestoga College, communist Julian Ichim splashed him from the front of the stage with two litres of chocolate milk, saying he did it to protest Day's "homophobic, anti-immigrant and anti-poor agenda".Afterward, again on This Hour Has 22 Minutes, actress Mary Walsh jokingly offered Day chocolate milk, saying: "All they had was homo, and I knew (Day) wouldn't like that."”

I hate voting in a poll with such a pathetic question, but sometimes you just have to hold your nose and vote.

Yes 68%
11065 votes

No 30%
4793 votes

I won’t answer a question about my religion
2%
308 votes

It's truly amazing that the 'refuse to answer' crowd is staying consistent. I guess they must be creotards from Toronto.

Oh dear, are you going to get in trouble again for vote rigging?

Spanked!

Not sure that people should be that surprised about Canada's christian conservative side. One of the most conservative churches I ever attended was when our family would drive across the border to hang out with the Mennonites on Sunday, as well as hard-core evangelical retreats across the border. Know of some very big-deal bible colleges up there that attract the creationist, conservative christian crowds. We forget to take Canada seriously... which is ridiculous... but it is much more diverse in its problems and beliefs than we insulated americans care to know... it's not like soldiers/draft-dodgers can run across the border like they used to... things have changed, and not every part of Canada is as forward thinking as Vancouver BC... or as cool as kids in the hall or Leonard Cohen...

I won't answer a question about my religion

Clearly those who choose this option cannot be christians, because they are in effect denying their Lord 'n' Savior™ - right, Minister Goodyear?

There is a black hole at the center of our galaxy:
1. Yes
2. No
3. I won't answer questions about my star sign.

If you want another pointless poll to crash, go here.

The question, "Canada's Minister of State for Science and Technology is a Christian. Is it fair game to ask Gary Goodyear whether he "believes" in evolution?". Currently Yes leads No 58% to 42%.

Yes 71% 13462 votes

No 27% 5011 votes

I won’t answer a question about my religion 2% 381 votes

But it is a silly poll.

WTF? I take it the Globe and Mail is some sort of right-wing tabloid?

Bill O'Reilly described it as "so left-wing it should be called The Havana Daily." :)

It's a right-centre (socially fairly liberal - economically conservative, what we call Red Tory) that is fairly intelligent on MOST things. Read that "strange" third option as a clue that the Glob and Snail recognizes that creationism is an explicitly religious position.

Woody @56 - If Jesus was a Mule, that explains why he was so psychohistorically disruptive...

I would have to answer no, since I don't "believe in" evolution. I accept it because it's an established fact. The question should have asked if one accepts or rejects evolution as the observed fact that it is. Belief is best reserved for ideas, not well-documented, observed, factual phenomena.

He clarifies with gibberish.

Jane Taber: So you do believe in evolution. You believe in the theory of evolution. Let's just get this off the table right now.

Gary Goodyear: We are evolving, every year, every decade. That's a fact. Whether it's to the intensity of the sun, whether it's to, as a chiropractor, walking on cement versus everything else, whether it's running shoes or high hells, of course, we are evolving to our environment. But that's not relevant. And that's why I refused to answer the question: The interview was about our science and tech strategy, which is strong."

Apparently, the problem here is not merely that the minister of science does not accept the veracity of a basic scientific fact. It's that he doesn't have a clue what that scientific fact is.

http://communities.canada.com/ottawacitizen/blogs/katzenjammer/archive/…

don't spank puppies. spank creationists.

So the Mop and Pail put in option three. Meh. They were just trying to stir the pot to see what wackos surface. Boost circulation, donchaknow?

Initially I was appalled even more at Marc Garneau. Goodyear is a right wing nut, but Garneau is a physician and astronaut. So why would he, as the Liberal Opposition critic of the Ministry, state that acceptance of evolution or not is not a qualification of being a good Minister of Science and Tech?

Just as diplomacy is war by other means, so also politics; and the "art and scicence" of war (Dewey 355) can be reduced to two ordered rules: feed your troops; and, never march on Moscow. That is, in reverse order, pick your battles carefully -- only the ones you can win or can't avoid, and, don't alienate your potential supporters. The Liberals are regrouping to get our own dinosaurs out of office, and to stir up the culture wars up here would do no good. Here we live in the Land of POGG ("Peace, Order and Good Government" an expression that dates from pre-Confederation Canada [1867]), and picking a fight with Goodyear over something that does not matter a hill of beans to most of us Hosers would be just stupid politics.

That's why.

the no votes went back up a bit, someone on the wrong side pushing the poll also?

Yes
51% 17838 votes
17838 votes

No
47% 16504 votes
16504 votes

I won’t answer a question about my religion
1% 500 votes

Yes, as a Canadian I'm seriously concerned.

http://girlpostdoc.blogspot.com/2009/03/i-hang-my-head-in-shame.html

@Big Mike

the no votes went back up a bit, someone on the wrong side pushing the poll also?

Sigh.Yeah. Stupid question anyway.

We're back to 52/48/2... I've added my click but wonder whether there's some counter-spankery going on?

(Hello! I don't normally comment but am bored on my night shift... how are you all this evening?)

A question:

I work at a local tv news station, and every day we do a "Question of the Day" where we do so-called "man on the street"-type interviews, asking everyone the same question.

Most of the time, the question is about some local issue but I'd like to gauge public opinion on evolution at some point because my part of the country is home to a lot of very religious folks.

So, out of curiosity -- since you find this latest evolution question from Canada to be so stupid -- how would you (PZ or anyone else reading) phrase your question if you wanted to get public opinion on evolution?

I think of the Sun (reincarnated Telegram) as more conservative and lowest-common-denominator and the Toronto Star as more liberal or wishy-washy. So in the neighbourhood, the G&M is centrist and relatively sensible or Red-Toryish. (Outside the U.S., red is traditionally left and blue is traditionally right.)

Richard Needham used to write a humorous column for the Globe & Mail about 30 years ago. Besides coining the term Bay Street Belle for female office workers, he was constantly referring to the paper as the Mop & Pail, the Goat and Snail, the Floating Jail, and so on.

@woodstein312 #78

I'd suggest:

Is the humans' and giraffes' latest common ancestor:
1- A shrew-like animal living in the age of dinosaurs ?
2- A lung fish like animal living much earlier ?
3- No common ancestor!!

Thus avoiding the words 'belief' and 'evolution' altogether.

Goodyear has admitted that he DOES accept evolution. Seems he just didn't want to answer the question.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20090318.GOODYEAR18/TP…

Isn't it interesting that after he refused to answer the question, all the blogs blew up with assumptions that Goodyear is a creationist? I thought we were supposed to skeptical, people? (I'd like to point out that I'm no fan of Goodyear.)

I would not use the Globe and Mail to wipe my bum. It's worse than garbage and it does not represent most of us in British Columbia.