Awww, poor widdle Ken Ham's feewings are hurt

Won't somebody please think of the piglets?

I'm quite surprised by this, given that the Cincinnati Enquirer has a very conservative bent, and given the religious proclivities of many Cincinnati residents. Perhaps it is the preponderance of Catholics in Cincinnati and the fact that even the Pope acknowledged evolution. Or maybe the editors are concerned about Cincinnati's reputation. But you're probably right, it's probably just an oversight.

You bring about as much prestige to the Cincinnati area as a combination leper colony and lunatic asylum; sure, it's well-populated with the unfortunate afflicted, and it provides employment to local citizens, and the fact that you've turned it into a spectacle of stupidity for gawkers brings in tourist dollars, but it's not something to be proud of.

Actually, I think the people of Carville, Louisiana are proud that they were willing to provide shelter to the victims of Hansen's disease who were forced out of their homes, sometimes as children, advised to change their names (so as not to bring shame to their families), not allowed to vote, and virtually imprisoned for decades, and for no good reason - only 5% of the population is vulnerable to Hansen's disease. Not one person who worked on the staff of the hospital in Carville caught leprosy, from the patients or any other source.

Furthermore, research done at Carville on the causes of damage to hands and feet as a result of leprosy have yielded results applicable to foot damage due to diabetes, a disease much more prevalent than Hansen's disease.

So I think it is grossly unfair to compare the creation museum to a hospital that served people who were not only ill but unfairly stigmatized and very badly treated due to ignorance and fear.

Creationists are no damned good at science. I don't care if they have a fake museum or publications by "science writers," they can't help but screw it up because they fundamentally don't know what it is. (They just wish they controlled it.)

Ken Ham whined:

By the way, we have submitted a letter to the paper to inquire about the omission of our major series of Christmas events that will attract over 15,000 people to a place that has won major tourism awards for advertising excellence--

Ah, a not-so-subtle reminder to the Cincinnati Enquirer about potential loss of income.

But...when you are reduced to bragging about "major tourism awards for advertising excellence", and not awards for the excellence of the content of your museum, that's a good indication that you got nuthin' worth seeing.

Or, it could be that they just forgot about it. I mean, over a year after the opening of that little freakshow, there's not much reason to think about it on the relatively civilized side of the Ohio. Still, rather unseemly to throw a hissy fit about it, Ken.

Hopefully we're seeing the inevitable drying up of the institution as they have nothing new to offer, ever.

Well, maybe the publication sooooo respects the Creation Museum's adherence to biblical accuracy as it relates to history and the natural world, that they simply assumed that the Museum would ignore Christmas, as it is almost certainly not when Jesus was born, and that many of the other stories surrounding Jesus' birth (being refused by an Inn-keeper, giving birth in a stable, Mary riding a donkey in to Bethlehem, 3 kings visiting Jesus while still in the manger) are actually more modern inventions of myth and story-telling and not even in the bible.

They are just respecting the museum's charter to biblical truth and accuracy, Ken... you should stop complaining.

But I'm guessing that you'll probably have a live nativity with 3 kings at the manger, in a stable, with the donkey Mary rode in on beside it... right, Ken?

So much for biblical accuracy.

God told Ham he was entitled to free publicity.

The Cincinnati Enquirer is disobeying God's will.

QED

And their advertising is good, unfortunately. Billboards with huge three dimensional dinosaurs are great for getting kids to want to come. Of course, no one in Cincinnati is threatening anyone over those billboards. Sadly, it means that kids who want to see dinosaurs will see better advertisements for the creation museum than for the Cincinnati Museum Center, where there is an actual Museum of Natural History and Science.

Hambone:

Interesting, considering over 920,000 people have visited the Creation Museum--tens of millions of dollars has been brought into the community each of the past two years--hundreds of jobs created locally--

Ammon ka: Head Slave Driver, Great Pyramid Project, Old Kingdom, 2350

Interesting, considering over 920,000 people slaves have visited the Creation Museum been dragged here--tens of millions of dollars in gold and spices has been brought into the community each of the past two years risings of Sirius--hundreds of jobs slave positions created locally--

There, we fixed that for you Hammy.

My god, the local leaders and journalists aren't bragging about a "museum" promoting pig-ignorance and active hatred of honest science and scientists in their midst?

I'm sure the DI is on the front-page of Seattle's promotional materials. Cutting-edge science and all that.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

Interesting, considering over 920,000 people have visited the Creation Museum--tens of millions of dollars has been brought into the community each of the past two years--

This would matter maybe a little if it weren't for the fact that the "Lies for Jesus Museum" is (I'm pretty sure) considered tax-exempt, so ummm... they're not bringing a red fucking cent to the community, directly.

Does having an Australian accent lend to more credibility in the the US when spouting bullshit?

There's a great opportunity here for a bit of Christmas-themed cooperation with the museum.

Anyone care to photoshop a picture of PZ, dressed as Santa, riding on top of the museum's sleigh-pulling Triceratops?

Makes me wonder why kenny's ilk aren't so charitable toward the porn industry. Doesn't that also generate employment-many more jobs than the museum of lies, indeed?

I dunno, guys. The scale and organization of his operation deserves a certain amount of respect. It is the same respect that the world should give to a plague - Contain it, comprehend it, and eliminate it, for the good of the greater society. Respect does not require approval.

But I think I dislike Ham the most for despoiling the name of a delicious, delicious meat.

Wait: they have a "live nativity"? If that's the baby Jesus attended by animatronic dinosaurs, it'd be several kinds of awesome.

As a reporter, I can attest that newsrooms are far from well-organized information-vacuums. I can't count the times some announcement got lost because it was sent to the advertising fax number instead of the newsroom; or nobody checked the general office e-mail for days on end; or a notice got put on the wrong person's desk and buried under a stack of zoning regulations for six months. Anyone as media-savvy as the Hamster should know this. But hey, it's another excuse to feed his martyr complex, and he'd never pass that up.

The guy can't even take the time to close his parentheses. I hate that!

If that's the baby Jesus attended by animatronic dinosaurs, it'd be several kinds of awesome.

But that wouldn't be live then! I want real dinos there, you know, "participating". Now that's something I'd go to see!

Newfie #13 wrote:

Does having an Australian accent lend to more credibility in the the US when spouting bullshit?

Yes. Unless they're saying "throw another shrimp on the barbie" or "blimey, look at the size of that croc," Australians are indistinguishable from the English, to the average middle American. The English, as we all know, are smart but snooty, and sound better reading a phone book than a Southerner sounds reading Shakespeare.

And if you have a British accent and come over here, it's just like the bar scene in Love Actually. Really.

I am so glad I don't live in Cincinnati anymore!
I think maybe that museum has lowered the IQ average in the Greater Cincinnati area.

..."won major tourism awards for advertising excellence"

Funny, the only award mentioned is from another group of dishonest propagandists making money from telling lies.

And unlike the leper colony/asylum, your institution provides no useful or charitable function for the community or its residents. Instead, you lie to children for money.

He's like everything that is wrong with Professional Wrestling.

Hey Ken. If you want advertising, you have to pay for advertising. You don't get to send out a press release and then stamp your foot when the local paper doesn't spotlight your phony crapfest for free.

Chuck
http://www.irreligiosophy.com

And if you have a British accent and come over here, it's just like the bar scene in Love Actually. Really.

In that case, I'm owed one wish-fulfillment fantasy: when I first arrived in Boston, I ordered a beer in the Queen's English, and all I got was a funny look from the bartender, nearly followed by a punch when I didn't realize I had to leave a tip.

For those of you in the Cincy area, the Hamster's museum is free on December 24th from 11am to 3pm when it closes. Poor Ken, he gives it away for one day and the Examiner won't tell the public.

I only wish I could be there as I'd like to see how awful this place is without giving money to AiG.

How can they have a live nativity?

Where would they find a live velociraptor for Mary to ride in on?
They've been extinct for hundreds of years.

Sorry PZ, but your post is highly offensive to people with Hansen's disease and mental illness. People who have diseases should not be subjected to stigma, denigration, or mockery.

You should have found a better analogy.

@Qwerty - I have often thought of going just to see what on earth goes on there, but didn't want to give them any money. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) I will be preparing Christmas dinner at that time (we do Christmas on Christmas eve) so I still can't go. Perhaps it's best not to go even when free though, so that they can't report me in their attendance numbers.

Boast all you want Ham, but that'll get you nothing in return. There will be no sympathies or respect for pathetic liars like you, Ham and your stupid ministry and crackhouse! One of these days, such boasting and whining you make will only bring you to your knees and your so-called ministry and your stupid crackhouse to the ground, and what you say and do will become your downfall.

The Creation Museum has found a way to get their event into the Enquirer- the Letters to the Editor section. :)

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/letters/2009/12/22/creation-museum-to-be-fr…

-won major tourism awards for advertising excellence-

They only win advertising awards. Yep, that says everything you need to know about their "museum".

Vacuous, tittilating to a certain demographic and full of half truths.

Ah, the sweet smell of irony in the evening.

Cervantes:

Sorry PZ, but your post is highly offensive to people with Hansen's disease and mental illness. People who have diseases should not be subjected to stigma, denigration, or mockery.

You should have found a better analogy.

If PZ had said: "You bring about as much prestige to the Cincinnati area as a combination Hansen's disease treatment center and mental heath facility..." then we would agree that such a comment was insensitive and ill advised.

It is a fact that the leper colonies and lunatic asylums of old, demonstrated an appalling lack of compassion for some of societies less fortunate members. These places were a blight on the landscape and served as little more than medieval prisons for the sick.

Fortunately, such places no longer exist, but if they did, no municipality would be proud of that fact. That was PZ's point.

Taken in that light, it is difficult to see how one could take offense at PZ's comment.

Cervantes,
As a crazy person, I would really rather that people did stuff to get mentally ill people off the streets and into a good environment where they can get affordable meds. Until then, I suppose we'll have to settle for smacking down blog posters who unintentionally insult us.
FACT: In the 18th and 17th centuries, Bedlam charged admission to people who wanted to watch and sometimes start fights between the mentally ill. It's a sad and brutal history. Everyone, including PZ knows these things are wrong, but nothing we can say or refrain from saying can make these parts of the past go away.

The difference between lunatics and lepers and Ken Ham is that lunatics and lepers can't help being the way they are. Ken can but doesn't. He needs to be tall-poppied.

I'm a bit bothered by Little Pee Zed's simplification that the piglet rapist lies to children for money. That is true. But… What about, for instance, Santa Claus? People are also lying to children for money there. Just take a look at the adverts around at the present time.

I suppose the difference is no-one expects the child to continue to believe in Santa Claus; that is, it's seen as a generally harmless (and perhaps fun) temporary myth. Piglet rapist's lying is designed to contaminate minds and be difficult to correct (remove); it's neither harmless, fun, nor something which is easily grown out of.

So what's a better way of putting it?

Propagandising children for money. (Doesn't roll off the tongue, amongst other problems.)
Continuously lying to children for money. (Ditto.)
Bearing false witness to children. (Ditto.)

I can't really think of anything better… It's a very minor nit, but the original phrase is just a bit too broad. Or I'm being too touchy/pendatic/idiotic/haven't set enough goats on fire.

They only win advertising awards. Yep, that says everything you need to know about their "museum".

Yeah... seems like a strange thing for a "museum" to be hanging their hat on while boasting of accomplishment or viability...

Now, a circus, on the other hand...

What about, for instance, Santa Claus? People are also lying to children for money there. Just take a look at the adverts around at the present time.

Well, "Santa" at least pays taxes on the money he's taking... unlike douchebag Ham and his tribute to the Flintstones...

Wouldn't a Triceratops be better for Mary to ride on than a Velociraptor? Less bouncing and much less likely to have a jeebus snack.

PZ very clearly implied that having a mental hospital or a colony for people with Hansen's disease would damage a community's prestige, and he used obsolete and offensive terms for such facilities.

If he intended a double layer of irony, it was far from obvious, and most readers will not see it. He should edit the post to make his intention clear, or change it to remove the offensive implications entirely.

If he intended a double layer of irony, it was far from obvious, and most readers will not see it.

I'm not sure it's very credible for someone to presume to speak for "most readers". I certainly don't share your sense of offense.

Legion's post @ 34 seemed convincing IMO.

Just my $0.02.

Perhaps Ken could advertise in the NAMPLA newsletter?

I'm not sure it's very credible for someone to presume to speak for "most readers". I certainly don't share your sense of offense.

Same here, I don't see or share any offence. The careful phrasing (see Legion@34), plus the follow-on sentence (quoted below), made quite clear (to me) Litter Pee Zed intended no “stigma, denigration, or mockery.”

[U]nlike the leper colony/asylum, [piglet rapist's] institution provides no useful or charitable function for the community or its residents.

If he intended a double layer of irony, it was far from obvious, and most readers will not see it.

Since you're the only one who seems to have a problem with it, I think the term "most readers" is unsupported.

You lie to children for money. You don't get respect for that.

This is my primary reason for not respecting religion--except it's not just children they lie to, it's everyone...

Litter Pee Zed? Oh the typos! The shame!! The horror!!! Will nobody think of the burning goats!?

(What's particularly embarrassing is I do use Preview.)

Since you're the only one who seems to have a problem with it, I think the term "most readers" is unsupported.

While you may be right that the term "most readers" is unsupported, it's not true that he's the only one who seems to have a problem with it. See post #3.

PZ very clearly implied that having a mental hospital or a colony for people with Hansen's disease would damage a community's prestige

But it would. Because of the fear and superstitions of the people.

He is using the old terms to point out how these people used to be treated and how this sort of thing WOULD damage the repution of a town even IF the charity was a good thing. That is THE point. He didn't say he agreed with it.

We had a hospital for brain injuries built near us and people went ballistic over it. Escaped lunatics will kill us all kind of thing.

As I carve my Christmas Ham in a few days, effigy will come to mind.

There may not be any live velociraptors at the "museum", but there are plenty of asses.

Sorry PZ, but your post is highly offensive to people with Hansen's disease and mental illness.

Oy vey.

cervantes, I'm sorry but your text is extremely offensive to illiterate individuals. They cannot read and thus anything you write is potentially insulting. Please do the right thing and delete your posts.

Epilogue: "And that, Billy, is how the last red herring was uttered online."

many of the other stories surrounding Jesus' birth (being refused by an Inn-keeper, giving birth in a stable, Mary riding a donkey in to Bethlehem, 3 kings visiting Jesus while still in the manger) are actually more modern inventions of myth and story-telling and not even in the bible.

It's not that they're not in the Bible, it's that the modern invention of the nativity scene needs to harmonize Luke's and Matthew's birth narratives to put all the elements in place. Matthew has the three kings (well, Magi, meaning Zoroastrian wizards from Persia), while Luke has shepherds, no magi, "there was no room in the inn" and Jesus being born in a manger, meaning he had a feeding trough for a cradle. True that Mary riding a donkey is not in any text, but it's a reasonable extrapolation from a scene of a pregnant woman travelling in the ancient Near East, and that little detail isn't that central to the typical story anyway.

Anyway, the birth narratives are clearly fabricated, but they're ancient inventions of myth and storytelling, not modern ones.

Listen up folks -- I am not personally mentally ill nor do I have Hansen's disease.

Kevin S's post immediately above is nonsensical.

Just because some of you claim not to be offended is irrelevant to whether the statements in question are potentially offensive. Saying that you are not personally offended by, say, a racist caricature of the president or a Polish joke does not cause them not to be offensive to other people.

PZ should not have used the analogy as he did; if he intends to disparage such usages, he needs to make that clear. He did not. Because you all know him well you presume that must be the case but it is not inherent in the text.

How about: We have better things to do on christmas than to drive from Cincinnatti to Kentucky just to read creationist garbage that I can get from pretentious books in the nearest library. There goes Ham again with all that mock outrage - I'm having trouble telling apart the various liars for jesus.

Magi, meaning Zoroastrian wizards from Persia

Not necessarily - by the 1st century AD, the word was used of wonder-workers of any sort.

I am going to concern troll this one along with emf1947 and cervantes because of what I think was a poor analogy, but I also think Legion is partially right. Those terms, "leper colony" and "lunatic asylum", denote places that carry a great deal of shame in communities where they still stand for the way they mistreated people in need of help and care, and for the way they abused, murdered, and mutilated people imprisoned therein, including people put in such places as political prisoners. It is no wonder that institutions today that care for mentally ill customers are heavily regulated under the watchful eye of the federal government in the USA. And there is no such thing as a modern version of a leper colony in the USA as far as I know (people with leprosy are not segregated).

However, Legion's explanation doesn't square with a following sentence:

And unlike the leper colony/asylum, your institution provides no useful or charitable function for the community or its residents.

Sorry. A leper colony/asylum, defined by the logic of Legion #34, would not provide useful or charitable functions for the community. And people locked up in those things could hardly be called "residents" by any ethical standards.

But the title did make me laugh. As for Ken Ham and the point of the whole post, I totally agree that his place is not something to be proud of and am disgusted at the thought of all the minds young and old that have been and are being polluted by its veneer of being a museum where one can expect to be educated.

Just because some of you claim not to be offended is irrelevant to whether the statements in question are potentially offensive.

It is relevant when you are claiming to speak for "most readers".

Saying that you are not personally offended by, say, a racist caricature of the president or a Polish joke does not cause them not to be offensive to other people.

No one is saying you shouldn't be offended because no one else is. We're (okay, at least I am) saying you shouldn't be offended because you interpreted it wrong.

While you may be right that the term "most readers" is unsupported, it's not true that he's the only one who seems to have a problem with it. See post #3.

I stand corrected.

Kevin S's post immediately above is nonsensical.

IMO, it seems to make sense to me. How about stating assertions like this as your opinion. It adds proportionality to your claims.

Just because some of you claim not to be offended is irrelevant to whether the statements in question are potentially offensive.

You moved the goalposts there. That's dishonest.

Saying that you are not personally offended by, say, a racist caricature of the president or a Polish joke does not cause them not to be offensive to other people.

I believe that's called a straw-man. I could be wrong there. My point is that the characterization of PZs comments doesn't seem to fit your analysis IMO.

PZ should not have used the analogy as he did;

Again, your opinion, to which I beg to differ.

if he intends to disparage such usages, he needs to make that clear. He did not. Because you all know him well you presume that must be the case but it is not inherent in the text.

No. It's simply that IMO your reasoning about the intent of his example does not follow. Furthermore IMO, no changes or clarification is needed if proper comprehension is applied.

PZ should not have used the analogy as he did; if he intends to disparage such usages, he needs to make that clear. He did not. Because you all know him well you presume that must be the case but it is not inherent in the text.

Actually, it is, but your concern has been duly noted.

Andreas,

I suppose. But magi coming from the East, following a star, implies Zoroastrian priest/astrologers.

Sorry. A leper colony/asylum, defined by the logic of Legion #34, would not provide useful or charitable functions for the community.

Those places, at the very least, protected the community at large from incurable highly contagious disease and persons with potentially unpredictable dangerous behavior. Were they run humanely, hell no. But they did provide some modicum of greater function.

My quibble (and it will be my last), I think is supported by this sentence:

These places were a blight on the landscape and served as little more than medieval prisons for the sick.

...which I took to mean that, yes indeed these were horrible inhumane places, but kept the community at large somewhat safe from the horrors of those afflictions.

Of course I'm open to new ideas. I respect your posts Aratina. This (unwarranted IMO) concern has already taken enough of my energies.

a place that has won major tourism awards for advertising excellence

I wonder who awarded these so-called "major tourism awards" to Ham's freak show, the Truthiness in Advertising Council?

But hey, it's Christmas, so in the spirit of charitable giving, I going to offer them (for free!) a marketing idea for their little pretend museum: print up a bunch of stickers which simply say, "Ignorance Inside". Advertising gold! Should win 'em an entire wall of awards...

a place that has won major tourism awards for advertising excellence

If it was anyone else saying this I would think it was a case of damning with faint praise ("well, their advertising is quite nice..."), but I have no doubt he's actually proud of this.

I wonder who awarded these so-called "major tourism awards" to Ham's freak show, the Truthiness in Advertising Council?

How the hell would they win THAT?

Unless you really mean the "Gods TRUTH in advertising award.

I wasn't worried so much about the offense giving potential of the statement as its accuracy. I think the National Leprosarium (Marine Hospital 66) at Carville did bring prestige to Carville, especially when its then director, Dr. Guy Faget, decided to try a sulfone drug that had been developed for TB on his patients at Carville in 1941. The drug, Promin, was disappointing in its results on TB patients but was effective on TB's close relative, Hansen's disease, and was the first known actual cure. Betty Martin called her 1950 autobiography Miracle at Carville, and I've never heard anyone from Carville gripe about the title. Of course, I know about 2 people from there, and one only by reputation, so I don't know if my experience is anything to go by.

How the hell would they win THAT?

Unless you really mean the "Gods TRUTH in advertising award.

"Truthiness" is a Stephen Colbert bit. A statement's truthiness is judged based on how true it sounds, not how factual it is.

lose_the_woo@61

Those places, at the very least, protected the community at large from incurable highly contagious disease and persons with potentially unpredictable dangerous behavior.

Incurable yes, but not particularly infectious.

BS

I wasn't worried so much about the offense giving potential of the statement as its accuracy. I think the National Leprosarium (Marine Hospital 66) at Carville did bring prestige to Carville, especially when its then director, Dr. Guy Faget, decided to try a sulfone drug that had been developed for TB on his patients at Carville in 1941.

I don't think Carville was what PZ had in mind, nor what most people think of, when the term "leper colony" is used.

Matthew has the three kings (well, Magi, meaning Zoroastrian wizards from Persia)

I know Matthew stipulates that there were Magi... but I didn't think it specified how many... it lists three gifts of value (gold, incense, myhr), but doesn't tie them directly to three specific magi...

Also, while Luke does state that "there was no room at the Inn", that scene is often depicted as having an inn-keeper coldly turn them away, when in fact no such interaction is ever referenced... although it could be inferred.

Quibbles, perhaps, but most modern nativity plays use these themes as central tenets that are in fact liberties with the actual biblical texts... and my point in pointing that out was tongue-in-cheek to poke fun at Ham's comments about being concerned with historical and biblical accuracy...

I know that poetic license is taken with the nativity story, the point was to poke fun at Ham by asserting that perhaps the folks at the Ledger didn't think he'd risk his integrity by having a scene depicting Jesus being born at the complete wrong time of year, surrounded by elements that technically did not exist in the biblical account.

Blind Squirrel @ #67

Thanks for the link. Good stuff.

Continuing along my path of concern... (Warning: Goats on Fire!)...

lose_the_woo, your posts are also much respected by me.

Those places, at the very least, protected the community at large from incurable highly contagious disease and persons with potentially unpredictable dangerous behavior. Were they run humanely, hell no. But they did provide some modicum of greater function.

Well, except, as told in the link Blind Squirrel provided, leprosy isn't really contagious and has been treatable for a few decades now. I think that most leper colonies and lunatic asylums were less about helping people and more about "out of sight, out of mind", although the people profiting from such places may have played on people's fears of an outbreak or on their feelings of shame from being associated with a mentally ill or mentally retarded person (of whom many lived out the rest of their lives and died forgotten in the asylums much like the people in leper colonies). Suffice it to say that I would be highly skeptical of claims that a leper colony or asylum served a greater function for the community or the people within the walls.

That said, there is real concern to be had about people who have mental illnesses which can cause dangerous behavior and about deadly diseases that are contagious, but treating the people with such illnesses or diseases as subhumans (banishing them, castrating them, lobotomizing them, treating them like cattle, and all the other awful things done to people in leper colonies and asylums) isn't the right way to go about solving the problem (although personal freedoms may have to be encroached in a few cases and quarantines may have to happen).

C_E:
liberties with the actual biblical texts... and my point in pointing that out was tongue-in-cheek to poke fun at Ham's comments about being concerned with historical and biblical accuracy...

I agree. The main thing re: the nativity and "biblical accuracy", and this is what I was stressing, is that you have to harmonize conflicting accounts to come up with a scene in a stable where there are both shepherds and magi. I mean, if there were really (some unspecified number of) magi on the scene, that's a pretty important feature in Matthew and it sets up the whole flight to Egypt bit that's also absent in Luke. If this was any part of a widespread tradition about Jesus's birth, and not simply creative literary activity on the part of the author of Matthew, it's hard to understand why the author of Luke would fail to include it.

It's standard practice in Christian churches in general to only read the gospels in little bite-size pieces as part of the liturgy and to harmonize a larger story as needed, which downplays significantly the degree to which the accounts omit important details found in others and otherwise contradict each other in ways that can't easily be attributed to the vagaries of oral storytelling. The nativity scene is perhaps the epitome of this practice.

Aratina,

I think that most leper colonies and lunatic asylums were less about helping people and more about "out of sight, out of mind"..

I found this.

"Historically, leprosy has been greatly feared because it causes visible disfigurement and disability, was incurable, and was commonly believed to be highly contagious."

So it seems safety concerns for the community (mostly based in ignorance) were also used as an excuse. So at the time, perhaps it was perceived that those "facilities" provided some greater community function.

In the end however, it was a selfish, inhumane act that was rationalized as being "good".

Concernmongers and vicarious offense-takers, please note: the analogy is not basically to the function or utility of leper colonies or lunatic asylums, when such establishments existed, but to the perception of such places by the local and peripheral communities.

Also note in the extended analogy, what it is that one should take no pride in:

the fact that you've turned it into a spectacle of stupidity for gawkers

Please adjust your outrage and continue. Thank you.

brought to you by GoatsOnFire™ announcements

It's interesting where the creation museum is sited. It is built on the rocks of the Cincinnatian Series from the Upper Ordivician (about 440-450 million years old and world famous for its fossils). Unfortunately the fossils do not tell the story that Young Earth Creationists want to believe. Which is a pity (for them).

The story of the fossils of the Cincinnatian are told by a member of the Dry Dredgers - a group of fossil collectors from the tri-state area.

Try searching Youtube for dry dredgers creation museum. You will find:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezQhVjGy6ME

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV8pFnwuPOo&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiBz3JqQ8i8&feature=related

Beware 2 things:

First, the guy who prepared these is keen on demonstrating that the fossils disprove the Creation Museum Flood but is also keen on showing all his fossils so the videos are not well put together to establish the point he is trying to make (but perhaps still effective all the same)

Secondly, if you have any interest in fossils you will want to go there! Especially in the rain (to wash the fossils out of the rock)!!

From www.lostmuseum.cuny.edu:
"Announcement, Morning Courier, April 14, 1860:

BARNUM'S MUSEUM.

UNPRECEDENTED SUCCESS! DELIGHTED AUDIENCES! 5000 PEOPLE DAILY!
SATURDAY, April 14. Among the curiosities last introduced is a life-size Wax Figure of A. W. HICKS.
The celebrated WHAT IS IT?--pronounced by so many people to be the
CONNECTING LINK BETWEEN MAN AND MONKEY still here. "

At least PT Barnum proved evolution!

the analogy is not basically to the function or utility of leper colonies or lunatic asylums, when such establishments existed, but to the perception of such places by the local and peripheral communities.

Well, the perception of such places by the locals, at least as far as Marine Hospital 66 was concerned, was such that some local cabdrivers were perfectly willing to drive patients who snuck out through a ditch under the fence into town to go to the saloon or even to Baton Rouge to go to LSU football games. I'm not sure how that helps your analogy.

Cue "no true leper colony" in 5 . . .

KH: I get no respect. The way my luck is running, if I was a politician I would be honest. *rim shot*

Maybe the "National Inquirer" would have been more open to advertise Kenny's "Museum To Nuttiness"?

lose_the_woo #73, I see what you mean. In that sense, such places were "useful or charitable" in the same way that Mother Teresa thought what she was doing was useful and charitable.

Hmmm, looking at the main post again and maintaining that ignorant "community safety" perspective that some communities used to justify leper colonies and asylums, I wonder if PZ is slyly criticizing modern-day "leper colonies" (apparently some still exist in the world according to the link in #73) and "lunatic asylums" (an archaic and backwards label but perhaps apt for some wretched places in the world where people with mental illnesses are segregated from society) along with Ken Ham's folly, as if to say that neither they nor the "Creation Museum" are respectable places. In other words, he could be saying that we should shut them all down because all that those kinds of places really do are make money off of people who are ill with disease and mental illness in the case of colonies/asylums and deluded with religion in the case of the "Creation Museum". If so, I would agree.

emf1947, I actually have no argument with your clear description of the hospitals that postdated the facilities being referred to in the OP analogy, and I'd thank you for taking a turn at the endless work of demythologizing.

If you frame the references back to the 19th century, [glockenspiel effect] thou mayst then cotton on to what is being used as a comparison to the Hamstrosity's reputation.

sastra @ 21 as an ex brit atheist in cincinnati your remark is offensive to both myself and aussies.

Well, the perception of such places by the locals, at least as far as Marine Hospital 66 was concerned

Oh for fuck's sake....

Cue "no true leper colony" in 5 . . .

Indeed.

Someone who really cared would be relieved to find out there wasn't really any disparaging of these people going on. But no, you're going to go to great lengths to maintain your righteous indignation. Have at it. I'm sure you'll find it quite fulfilling.

@ Harmless Eccentric, #32
"The Creation Museum has found a way to get their event into the Enquirer- the Letters to the Editor section. :)

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/letters/2009/12/22/creation-museum-to-be-fr…"

I enjoyed reading the replies to the comment immensely.

Dear Mr. Ham
Our advertising rates are as follows.
Yours Truly
The Publisher

Didn't P. T. Barnum once say, "There's another sucker born again every minute?"

Adrian

I'm just glad Ken Ham left my country (Australia) and made a home somewhere else.

I also just hope people realize that Ken Ham is about as representative of the typical Australian as is Crocodile Dundee (ie. not at all) :P

"It's" is not an adjective -- yet.

lttl sh*t pz thnks h cn dbnk Gd..

y r gng t b trtrd nd mrdrd wtht mrcy...

Lks lk yr wbst s ndr ttck frm sprntrl frcs…

http://dyn.pltc.cm/mmbrs/frms/thrd.cfm?ctd=2&sbctd=7&thrdd=3449994

y rlly nd t dd cmmnt mdrtn t yr blsphmy…

Why aren't you in jail yet?

"Didn't P. T. Barnum once say, "There's another sucker born again every minute?""

No.

you are going to be tortured and murdered without mercy...

Quick its christ...the god of love and charity...run, save the children.... aaaarrghhhhhhhh......

920,000 people have visited the Cretinist museum!!? That has sent a shudder down my spine. Is he exaggerating, or is that really true? Has anyone got any real figures?

Man, that is worrying, that so many people are so credulous to swallow that unmitigated bullshit. There should be a public health warning on the building, "surrender your brains, you who enter here".

I worry for you, America.

920,000 people have visited the Cretinist museum!!?

Okay, so thats 460,000 people per year. Wow...erm...huge...

but...a little interneting plus a little perspective...

An average of 2.5 million visitors each year visit the Science Museum in London according to their website.

The natural history museum got 3.7 million last year apparently.

And these are in England. A country considerably smaller than yours.

The smithsonian was set up in 1910 and gets up to 30 million visitors per year.

There is also the fact that the creation museum has only opened in the last 2 years or so, probably with much fanfare.

The question is... now that all those "loyal" people have been to see it when it opened. How many visitors will visit in year 3, 4, 5 etc...

Wonderful smack-down on a creep! Hysterical! Thank you.

@ Richard Eis #94 - Yeah, if he wants to play the numbers game, you just have to see that even lesser attractions get more than him, but it is good to know that legitimate scientific museums get such staggering figures. I had no idea that the Sminthonian averaged that many!

I think it'll peter off over the next few years, or at the very least, if folks could be polled on entry and exit, we'll probably find the numbers of people who actually believe what is in there will diminish, and the numbers of folks who go there for a laugh or to see the shoddy science (like us) will increase.

That is good news about the Smithsonian.

Yes, I wouldn't be in the least surprised that the Natural history museum and the science museum in London reached those number. In fact, I would consider those numbers disappointing, as many school children in the UK visit those venues, and London is a hub of vibrant tourism, from all over the world.

I am not familiar with Cincinnati, other than it is in Ohio, but the fact that it has pooled nearly a million visitors is not negligible.

Hopefully as flawedprefect observed, the numbers will diminish, although if polls are correct, and 40% of American's believe the world is 6000 years old, then there are little grounds for hope.

Actually the numbers aren't that good. I have just been playing with pen and napkin and internet.

Taken from creation friendly sources:

After 4 months they had 200,000 visitors
250,000 after 5 months
550,000 after 15 months
920,000 after 30 months (they opened in late may 2007)

That means their average attendence is about 30,000 visitors per month. It was about 50,000 in the first year...but between 15 and 30 months it has gone down to 24,600.

Does anyone know more statistics? and can someone double check my maths if they are bored.

At an average of $16 per ticket (rough). I estimate $14.7 million in ticket sales. So they have yet to break even i'll bet. This is before we talk about workforce, maintenance etc...

@ #89,

lttl sh*t pz thnks h cn dbnk Gd..

y r gng t b trtrd nd mrdrd wtht mrcy...
blo

Lks lk yr wbst s ndr ttck frm sprntrl frcs…

Gee, with a reasoned argument like that how can we not see the rightousness of your cause?...fucking moron.

Aaggh, blockquote fail!

#89 pzisdead

How to guarantee I will not read something.

Sheesh

Ham's fantasy world has won awards for "excellence in advertising". That pretty much means that they've already saturated the local media with ads for their fun-house.

I think it's most likely that any newspaper in the area would see no need to make any more reference to a tourist trap which is already advertising themselves to the point of being obnoxious.

Piglets dude