The last edition of the Never-Ending Thread has once again grown beyond reason, with no end in sight. At the same time, a thread that began with a sneer at creationists and grew to such proportions that it needed to expand to another thread has also bloated up to the point where it needs trimming.
So there I am, holding two tubes on the internet that are pulsing and spewing, ready to cut both off…and what is any scientist's natural inclination in such circumstances? Why, to take the severed ends and suture them together and see what happens! That is this new thread, an anastomosis between two, count 'em, two old threads. I wonder…will it explode?
I must also confess to some curiosity about how Sven will cope with the fusion.
More like this
While I am on vacation, I'm reprinting a number of "Classic Insolence" posts to keep the blog active while I'm gone. (It also has the salutory effect of allowing me to move some of my favorite posts from the old blog over to the new blog, and I'm guessing that quite a few of my readers have…
I've hated those Survivor TV shows for as long as they've been on — I've never been able to sit through a single episode. Staging a phony zero-sum game and encouraging backstabbing betrayal and vicious psychopathic behavior is not my idea of fun.
I have this fantasy version of the game in which…
Over the weekend, it appears that a post of mine, in which I included a link to a video of comic Tim Slagle doing the comedy routine that, in my never-ending effort to live up to the stereotype of the humorless skeptic that the credulous like so much, I castigated for its misrepresentations of…
Ed: This is an essay I wrote for my friends at the World Science Festival, riffing on the central themes of this years' event. If you prefer, you can also read this piece on the World Science Festival site. And, if you're in New York between the first and fifth of June, you could do much worse…
This is silly. There are no atheist legislators. An atheist can't be elected dog catcher in the USA.
There might be some deep in a closet. So deep we wouldn't know.
Shrews? Really? I am surprised...they are carnivorous and never thick on the ground, and mostly nocturnal besides.
No offense, but could you tell a shrew from a vole?
Fucking Ghost never gives me anything
Pete Stark.
That certainly has been the case - Stark was already in office. In the spirit of your remark I'll even concede that re-election is somewhat different. I think there was some atheist elected (mayor?) recently though.
This thread has moved well past me and I don't have the time or energy to catch up (my daughter is getting married on Saturday). But in fairness to those who participated and for general clarity, I wanted to offer some views that I had not yet expressed.
I tried to be careful throughout the thread not to make an argument as to how atheism should be defined, even though I think the traditional approach, depending upon your viewpoint, makes the most sense/has the fewest problems. That's because I no longer argue that the traditional view is right or best. My view in this regard changed for three primary reasons.
1. Most importantly, I think people (in general) ought to be able to define/describe themselves in terms they choose and delineate. I think atheists are wrong to try to define things like who and what a Christian is or what faith is, so I should afford atheists the same courtesy.
2. I have subsequently seen some arguments for defining atheism as a mere lack of belief that are pretty good. Thus I think the "cumulative value" of the two primary schema are much closer than I used to think.
3. I'm considering a different approach to matters like the God question than a simple Aristotelian true/false proposition governed exclusively by evidence (I can't wait to be ridiculed for this -- see below where I will provide some tentative and necessarily speculative thoughts).
398: Tell me, would you insist on this distinction in the case of my disbelief in leprechauns? Do I simply "not believe in leprechauns", or do I actively deny that there are leprechauns? I don't know which more accurately expresses my behavioural dispositions (which is what beliefs are best understood as being), so how could you? I would, of course, say exactly the same about my atheism.
In my view, the value of Pascal's Wager is in the idea that the God question is an existential one, requiring a two-step process, leading to degrees of belief and an examination of credal possibilities. We have to (or at least ought to) consider the consequences, meanings and pay-offs of our various commitments before we make them. For example, we (rightly, I think) check all airplane passengers for weapons even if we don't have evidence that any of them are carrying weapons or are terrorists because (in general) the consequences of terrorism are so great and the burdens of checking are relatively small. Moreover, as the scientific method so aptly demonstrates, in the real world we can prove almost nothing with certainty. We're left to make probabilistic evaluations which ought to consider matters of both truth and consequences. Accordingly, I would look at the leprechaun question quite differently than I look at the God question as I see no significant consequences for being wrong or right about leprechauns, but very serious consequences for being wrong or right about God. Of course, that isn't to say that Pascal was entirely correct with his wager since other pressing and difficult questions (such as "which god?") still remain and influence how one responds to the wager. I don't think what one's bet should be is nearly so clear as Pascal did.
Fire away, but note in advance that I don't expect to be back here until after my daughter's wedding.
Mazel Tov, robocop
Yawn, more Pascal's wager tripe. An imaginary deity does't cut any mustard. Since he has the same probability as a leprechaun of existing (ie, none), the whole question is moot. Alleged consequences are irrelevant. As you should know.
Oh, here you are! I was totally blogwhoring on the wrong thread! May I tell you about my new Mormon project?
I resemble that remark.
robocop
Your reconsiderations on atheism are appreciated, althugh I'd add a rider that such redefinitions are only reasonable as long as they can be reconciled with reality and common communication. Not an issue for atheism but the fight over language has a long and sometimes insane history.
On comparing Gods and leprechauns: How much importance would you attach to the possibility that some item of your furniture is actually a shape-shifter and will come alive and eat you tonight unless you anoint it with lavender oil and rub it down with a yellow cloth? Clearly the consequences could be serious (it will eat you!)...
I'll take that as a yes. I see you guys learned about the Seed of Cain/Bigfoot thing. Yeah. I'll be addressing that next week.
This week I thought it would be timely to discuss Mormons and their doctrine and treatment of GLBTQ members.
Here's a little background: The Mormon church has been lurking my site for a week because I wrote a post critical of the Philadelphia Mormon temple construction and their Philadelphia mission. They lurked me so much that I decided to dedicate Saturday posts to their doctrine and asshattery.
This Saturday is "GLBTQ Day: Celebrating Nearly 180 Years of LDS Homophobia, Bigotry and Violence." I'm writing approximately 10 posts, each to go up every half hour starting a 7 am. I'll have some GLBTQ exmormons posting as well. Here's the line-up (subject to change):
1. Morning dose of Boop (my sick cat I rescued) and outline and brief description of the day's posts
2. Background on LDS doctrine w/r/t heaven, the CK, etc. and why GLBTQ folks who do not consummate hetero temple marriages will not get into the CK
3. Pressure to marry someone of the opposite sex even if you're out to the bishop
4. Notable quotes about GLBTQ folks from church leaders
5. Excommunication for being gay
6. A comparison of the process of acceptance of sexual identity and the process of leaving Mormonism
7. Evergreen, past and present - BYU aversion torture
8. Mormon theology vs. science (specifically "reparative therapy")
9. Prop 8 and other political meddling
10. Church-induced suicide and violence
11. Personal stories posted by GLBTQ exmormons
My mistake was to comment on your negative comment about a song I posted. Not that I expect anyone to notice but when people post a song I dislike, I just go on. I really do not like pissing matches over music. I will play along when it is music I like. I will say nothing if it is otherwise.
Should the fifties be thrown in the scrap pile just because If I Knew You Were Coming, I Would Have Baked You A Cake was recorded during that time. Or should we instead pull out some Fujiyama Mama?
I don't know. Commercial fluff Tin Pan Alley pop vs. redneck rockabilly 3-chord pop? That's a pretty limited purview there.
But you're right that there was great music made in the 50s.
Why, yes, by throwing out those two examples, I was reducing the music of the era to those two polarities. I get tired of people thinking of eighties era music as just the synth pop parody that it gets painted as by too many people.
Also, do not be disparaging of hillbilly music. It seems that their is a certain guitarist that loved the stuff. Though I will take Joe Maphis every time. And what of all of those hillbillies who worked at Stax and Muscle Shoals?
Talk about lack of perspective. You do know the silly line is a parody of the line about the tyrannies of Napoleon and Napoleon III.
Sven, on this issue, you are acting like some people I knew in college who acted as if I was committing a moral affront because I disliked the band. I got tired of the hectoring, that I would have some great revelation from giving in and listening. I have heard enough Dead over the decades. It does not interest me. (I will go even farther, I do not like jam bands, be it the Dead, Phish or Umphy McGee's.)
Also, after the hectoring I received months ago and now, why would I link to something I know I do not like?
Sven, I like you. I will continue to read what you post and sometimes comment on it. But I will say no more on this subject.
Robocop,
OK, so where is your evidence that a decision whether to believe in God or not has any consequence whatsoever?
We have a bunch of conflicting scriptures, but...
And who is to say that belief in a nonexistent God would not have negative consequences...oh, like intolerance, the occasional religous war, etc.
Seems to me you'll have a hard time getting a bookie to take that action.
That's where I think Pascal's Wager falls down. If one cannot see that belief in Christ will mean eternal salvation or that the failure to believe will mean eternal hellfire, then the wager falls flat. Consider the following two statements:
I don't want to jump off the waterfall because there could be jagged rocks at the bottom I'll impale myself on.
I don't want to jump off the waterfall because there could be a transdimensional alien waiting at the bottom to devour me in its stomach.
Point is, consequences must have an element of truth to them for them to apply. At least to me, I can't see reasons to believe in any deity, let alone why I should prefer the Judeo-Christian one. And because of that, I see pascal's wager as like being afraid of a black hole forming in the shower and taking my naked body back in time to my year 10 formal...
When I first saw those Wintry English photos, I wondered where the roads were. Then I realised the dark spots were Brum and Liverpool.
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em: Sarah Palin joins Fox News. Now she can harp on about the media while being a media spokesperson.
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em: Sarah Palin joins Fox News. Now she can harp on about the media while being a media spokesperson.
Better that she is a polarizing talking head then being in a position of power.
Hat. Figurine. Go vote!
An honest Calvinist.
But see, the problem with that way of looking at it is that we atheists don't define what a Christian is or what faith is. We simply point out to people who call themselves Christian that that other group of people over there with different beliefs are also Christians. And people who call themselves Christians do have a thing in common: they all rally around the character named Jesus in the Bible.
Paradoxically, the set of all people who call themselves Christian end up actually having widely differing beliefs and range from being atheists to agnostics to deists to monotheists to polytheists. This is intimately tied to the failure of Pascal's Wager because even among Christians themselves there are different gods (like yours who doesn't send people to Hell versus Mary Catherine's over there who does).
I think atheists are taking the high road here and it is actually certain Christians who think their version of Christianity is the True Christian™ way who are not affording other Christians the courtesy of self identity.
JNOV #511,
Wonderful! The Mormons unfortunately appear to have the ear of US Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy:
These anti-gay bigots are nuts and paranoid. This is the second time that Justice Kennedy has thrown his weight around to shield Mormons bigots from being exposed publicly even though millions of American families are being directly affected by the Mormon shenanigans.
blah, blah, blah.
Lighten up for chrissakes. Did you click the link? I was yust yokin'! Click it and see! Really! You'll smile! It's good-natured kidding around.
Truth: I don't give a flying fuck about what kinds of music you like and dislike; I am merely passing the time joshing around on the internet. You are taking me (and, for that matter, IMO, yourself) way too seriously.
Me too, except for sometimes when I don't. And don't be a hypocrite: the only reason I know you hate the Dead is because you thought it was an important point to make, at least once.
I didn't disparage anything. I said that tune was "redneck rockabilly three-chord pop" and that's what it is. I'm listening to Dock Boggs as I type, for cryin out loud.
huh wha?
um...
yeah...
that's why I thought it was funny.
Are you just trying to be a dick at this point? Did it really hurt your feelings that I think Husker Du is crappy? Or what?
For what it's worth, the way you feel about "jam bands" (by and large excellent improvising musicians, btw) is the way I feel about punk and most of its progeny: hate it. And here's why: It's crappy music, qua music. I spent untold hours over decades learning to play and then to express myself on some musical instruments; I know a lot about music (as in: playing it), and why in the world would I choose to spend time listen to some screaming DIYers who can barely play and don't even know what a major 7th chord is? It's all energy and no nuance and it's musically boring.* I have a short attention span for Blues for similar reasons.
But that's just me.
So keep posting whatever tunes suit your fancy, and rock on. I promise not to comment negatively until the next time that I do.
*Excuse me while I Kw*k out for a moment, but I have said this, in as many words, to my personal friend Greg Graffin. He didn't care.
I can agree with Robocop to an extent, but it does run thet risk of No True Scotsman. Back when I was on an atheist group on facebook, I remember Lutherans lashing out at Catholics as not being true Christians, Catholics lashing out at Lutherans, Pentecostals labelling anyone who didn't follow the Ussher chronology as not Christians, and then there were those who defined it behaviourally - so if anyone committed a serious offence they by definition aren't a true Christian. Just to mention a few.
Meanwile, all of them believed in an interventionist deity, all of them believed in Christ and redemption through Him, and all of them believed in the bible as a pretty important book, and all of them called themselves Christian.
Surely there should be something to distinguish between those looking for a cogent definition of Christianity and those looking to promote Christianity at whatever cost. That theirs is the true way to a good life, to salvation, to removing evil from the world.
Robocop;
The problem with this type of argument from alleged consequences in relation to non-belief in god is that the supposed consequences are asserted without any proof whatsoever. We are just supposed to accept that, since various theologians have claimed that non-belief sends you to this horrible hell place, that the aforementioned hell is a sufficently credible threat that we should not risk the possibility of being condemned to it.
However, if the only criterion for taking a supposed risk seriously is the severity of the consequences if this threat transpires to be actual rather than imaginary, and the complete absence of proof is no obstacle, then why not apply the same logic to creatures from mythology? Whether they be Joffan's shape-shifting furniture or werewolves and vampires.
Surely, by your logic, it is foolishly risky to go out after dark without carrying a supply of garlic, some holy water and a bundle of oak, ash or hawthorn stakes? Even considering going through a night when the moon is full without a firearm loaded with silver bullets would surely be the height of lunacy (if you will forgive the pun). Afterall, while the risk is non-existent if (as all the evidence suggests) these supernatural creatures are nothing more than social constructs, what if the scientific consensus is in error? If we are all wrong, and these monsters do in fact haunt the night, then the risk is terrible indeed, not only of brutal and violent death but also of being transformed into an inhuman creature in your own right. If we put aside the need for proof to evaluate the credibility of the threat, then these are hardly consequences to be taken lightly.
In the light of these considerations, I am curious; do you routinely carry stakes, garlic, holy water and a gun loaded with silver bullets when you go out after dark? You know, just in case? If not, then why not?*
If your answer is because belief in such things is completely at odds with all that science teaches us about reality, then you can surely see how how an atheist might apply the same argument to the existence of any given god or gods? The idea that the Christian god is a reflection of some eternal 'truth', whereas other religions and mythologies are mere superstition, is meaningless when this truth claim is unsupported by evidence.
To the unbiased, rational mind, these two sets of ideas cannot be divided into one set of myths and one 'revealed truth'. All that the rationalist sees is two forms of mythology that are equal in terms of their evidential support, which is to say that neither is supported by any evidence whatsoever.
To be frank, the idea of Pascal's Wager strikes me as nothing so much as an attempt to use the fear of the unknown to compel obedience to a mythology that is of particular use to those who employ religion as a source of authority. This is why the descriptions of hell in the scriptures tend to be somewhat on the lurid side. If fear is your control methodology of choice, you want to make sure that your target audience is suitably fearful.
* Of course, if you actually believe in the literal existence of such creatures, that would put a somewhat different spin on this discussion. Believe it or not, we actually used to have a contributor in these parts who went by the handle of Piltdown Man that espoused a belief in the existence of actual, non-figurative demons. I kid you not.
Sven @502: Excellent point about the voles and the shrews. It's voles in Alaska, and I knew that, but fucked up anyway. Here's nice vole-population-explosion story: http://www.adn.com/wildlife/story/607201.html
nah, there are shrews there too, you're just very unlikely to ever see em.
OT, but it's a worthy cause so I'm going to say it: today is Human Trafficking Awareness Day, and nobody even mentioned it to me until today.
http://www.humantrafficking.org/
Aratina Cage #520: Yup. I am NOT pleased.
robocop@505,
You have a reasonable point with regard to consequences (although of course if there were leprechauns, Ireland would have a possible way out of its economic troubles!); but I think others have answered it with better analogies. Your interpretation of Pascal's wager still depends on the existence of a God in whom it makes a huge difference to believe having an initial plausibility. In the light of everything we know or think we know about the world, it doesn't.
Congratulations to your daughter and impending husband - hope you enjoy the wedding.
JNOV, as you no doubt noticed, I ripped your blog off for the link to the NPR podcast on the Placement program the mormons ran for placing Native Americans in white, LDS homes.
I was just stunned to hear one of those white Molly Mormons saying that she encouraged her Native American guest captive to marry an Indian girl in order to "keep the bloodline pure." There are at least two levels of fucked up thinking there.
As you also noticed, once a mormon-related thread drops off the front page, I come here to out the mormons for trafficking in lies like "The Lost Civilization of North America" documentary propaganda. A thread that drops off the front page has to remain really active for other reasons, (like the presence of TBM's airing their grievances and unwittingly displaying their mind-boggling array of brain damage), other reasons that will pop the thread up in the Recent Comments list frequently. Otherwise, it's no use posting on a dying thread. This endless thread, however, is always active, though the activity waxes and wanes.
Sven should check to see if the full moon has any effect on the endless thread. We need our own sarcastic brand of woo to brandish.
Pascal's wager also assumes that the expected gain has infinite utility. If someone's utility for a life forever worshiping God in Heaven is 0, then even an infinitesimal benefit to non-belief over belief in the lifetime we can actually know about (i.e., this one) means we should choose to not believe.
Mythusmage might like to check out factoids on the elusive Ningen of the Antarctic. Surely these photos of Ningen lend far more credibility to this creature's existence than that shoddily shot video clip does for Sasquatch.
"The only thing worse than an insufferable elitist music snob is an elitist who's insufferably snobby about the wrong music."
-one of my ex-wives
(about me)
I would look at the leprechaun question quite differently than I look at the God question as I see no significant consequences for being wrong or right about leprechauns, but very serious consequences for being wrong or right about God.
You're inventing an asymmetry where none exists. Lets take a Celtic pagan of the British Isles before Christianity was widespread there. What should he believe in? On one hand, we have powerful and mischievous spirits from a parallel world who can steal your children, make you ill, curse your cattle, what have you. On the other, we have some Semitic sky deity and his sacrificed son. 'That's quite a yarn, mate, but I'ma look after my own', is my guess on the response you'd get. An appeal to consequences exactly opposed to your formulation.
The consequences you're talking about are not salient outside of the prevailing culture.
This is barf-bag worthy, so I'm just warning you. The LDS Church magazine, in the most recent edition, has wrapped a little heart-warming story around it's injunction to stay away from the internet and from non-approved source material if you want teach or learn about mormonism. Excerpt below:
I think they should have included a specific warning to avoid Pharyngula.
@Lynna -- rip away! I also added your blog to my blogroll.
W/r/t the IPP: Here's my assessment of it. I know one of the people interviewed at this site, Yvonne Yazzie. I wish her interview were longer.
Also, a commenter at exmormon.org told of a girl in the IPP who ended up marrying her "host" family's father. They have two kids...
"Anybody who admires Madonna's music deserves to die." High school student overheard speaking to a Madonna-loving student.
If someone's utility for a life forever worshiping God in Heaven is 0 - Miki Z
I'd place mine at around -∞!
But Pascal's Wager undermines the Christian perception of their god as 'just', since there's no crime which warrants eternal suffering - and that cannot be considered 'just' unless you change what the word means.
If Christians want to redefine Pascal's Wager as 'fear the vengeance of my spiteful monster god', and admit they're sucking up to him out of fear and a sense of self-preservation rather than genuine adoration and love then at least I'd consider it a sensible interpretation of the consequences they describe.
But no, they have to stick to their claim that their god is kind and loving and fair - which I think is actually a far bigger issue for Christianity than the lack of evidence.
The Book of Alma 32:17-18...
"Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe. Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it."
Verily, verily, I say unto you: behold, this ain't half bad actually.
Iä! Iä!
A few more comments like this, and you'll get rich and famous a Molly nomination.
<headdesk>
That late!?! The chutzpah! It burns!
It's actually good that most of them were Navajo. That's the least endangered Native language in the entire USA.
Well, duh. Demons are mentioned in the Bible. Vampires and werewolves are not.
Also, that guy would probably have been scared shitless even if he didn't believe in demons. Must utterly suck to be him. The horror! The horror!
From beyond our shores...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--p1aROkc5U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vLJvavE4QY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0yL1RVvR24
One time I was driving late at night in the Mojave Desert with a cassette player on the fritz, and I was scanning the AM dial for something listenable, and I happened across somebody speaking the weirdest language I'd ever heard. WTF? Not Russian jamming stations, or Finnish from Saskatchewan or something...what could it be?
Then the dude introduced, in English, the next record: Jim Ed Brown doing "Pop a Top." A moment of purest surreality until I finally tipped that he was code-talkin' Navajo.
While clicking "Submit", I wondered what would happen if Piltdown Man read a Cthulhu book. Would he be reduced to gibbering madness like the protagonists? Nah, it's more probable that he would read his theology and demonology into it, and probably he'd end up telling us all about how Lovecraft used his subconscious knowledge about demons in his novels or something. <sigh> I hope he gets professional help sometime.
...all while claiming, with Biblical support, that "genuine adoration and love" is exactly what God wants. What if hypocritical lickspittles will be sent to hell...?
In other words: in order to be able to accept Pascal's Wager, you must already believe the Christian god exists.
Not Navajo -- Diné, y'all, Diné.
Comanche prefer Nu Mu Nu ("Comanche" means "traitor")
Sioux are either Lakota, Santee, Western Dakota (the "Sioux" Nation is a bunch of smaller nations) or a mix of all the above. "Sioux" means "enemy"
Better let these guys know.
And apachu is said to mean "the enemy" in some neighboring language (...Hopi???), and which one is "treacherous snakes" again? Cheyenne perhaps?
Diné just means "people"; that kind of word is found as a self-designation throughout that language family (which covers the western 1/3 of Canada and most of central Alaska...). I've even found the term naabeehó in Wikibíídiiya.
Oops. They give it a capital letter.
I suggested something like this to a Christian poster on another thread - consider we have no way of discriminating between revealed truth and revealed falsehood, how do we know that a god who values critical thinking and evidence and scorns blind faith and credulity* hasn't set up religions as a test for the qualities he truly values?
Funnily enough I didn't get an answer.
*Which seems far more likely when you think about it; Galileo (apparently) felt somewhat similar: 'I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect had intended for us to forgo their use.'
They say the collective "Awwww" was heard around the Net.
I'll get right on it. I mean, I know Lakota who call themselves "Lakota Sioux" to non-Natives just because it makes life easier. But out of respect for my Diné friends who bristle at being called "Navajo," I eschew that misnomer.
Ladies and gentlemen (and Floyd), the Smashing Pumpkins...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsZYqaSc4cU
Patricia, OM - Stellamara
Very beautiful. The Strumica vid on YT has some ovely geology in it to. It reminds me of a great many things. Not least of which;
El Heddud
Also, Stella Marie, you're my star.
David Marjanović @ 540;
Actually, on one of the threads I was reading a couple of weeks ago various contributors found quotes in the Bible that seem to refer obliquely to creatures comparable to both vampires and werewolves.
Can anyone here remember the thread I am thinking about?
Also, I distinctly remember Piltdown Man himself ranting on about werewolves at one point, or at least blathering about a medieval idea that persons who were 'seduced by the devil' could assume the form of a beast or some such tripe.
As well you should, if your friends are bristling.
But why (purely out of curiosity) would they bristle, and why is it considered a "misnomer"? As far as I can tell, the word "Navajo" does not translate to "enemy" or "asshole" or anything like that; it's just the English word (via Spanish) for that people.
If I am speaking English and I call a foreign friend a "Swede" is that a misnomer just because it isn't what she'd call herself if speaking Swedish?
I would say no.
WowbaggerOM #539
This is the thing I've never understood about Judeo-Christians. Their god is a bullying asshole. "Believe in me or I'll smite you forever" is not the mark of a kind, loving, just god. But the Christians and Jews keep telling us about how benevolent he supposedly is.
Yeah, that sounds like Piltdown. A good illustration of the kind of mental gymnastics a brain poisoned by woo will engage in to alleviate cognitive dissonance.
Sven DiMilo, do you have any of your music uploaded anywhere?
@Sven: You know what, I never bothered to ask them. They call themselves Diné, so I call them Diné. It's not an issue or a problem for me. I think a group deserves to be called what they prefer to be called. Should I run into a Diné who prefers to be called "Navajo" ("knife"), I'll do as they please. I'm easy like that.
What I don't understand is why people bristle when asked to respect how others self-identify. Identity is a very personal and fundamental thing, especially if you're a member of an oppressed minority.
Upon consider of the discussion about good and bad music, here's something I consider superb. It's Julia Migenes-Johnson singing "Habanera" from Bizet's Carmen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV9iGv4sKNI
Here's some good music"
Concha Buika: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90uBTLM07cM
Sunny War (she's 18 in this video): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG9mfgsLQsQ
Sure. I am simply curious as to why they don't like "Navajo". (I am planning a trip to New Mexico in the spring, and this would be good to know.)
In what language?
(According to 'kipedia, the Navajo (OK to use that as the name of the language?) word for 'knife' is béézh.)
This is the thing I've never understood about Judeo-Christians. Their god is a bullying asshole. "Believe in me or I'll smite you forever" is not the mark of a kind, loving, just god. But the Christians and Jews keep telling us about how benevolent he supposedly is.
Jews do this a lot less than Christians. Most Jews will tell you he's their God and they're stuck with him, whether he's benevolent or not. It's not like the Jews just somehow never noticed all the smiting, the genocide, the bear-maulings and the backroom wagers with the Adversary in their scriptures.
For Christians, it's all about 'letting Jesus into your heart' and 'getting in touch with God'. For Jews, it's more like 'God won't leave us alone'.
nah. It's been years since I played for anything but personal amusement or general jam-party jollity.
Yeah, the response to that is usually something as poorly-thought-out as claiming that a clay pot has no right to judge the potter, or that god choosing not to slaughter us when he could do so easily meets the definition of 'benevolent'.
The Christian also have the whole 'but he sacrificed himself for our sins; that means he loves us' drivel, but pointing out the obvious - that being tortured to death sleep for three days before getting up again and ascending to heaven to spend eternity in paradise doesn't really count as a sacrifice - puts paid to that.
Had he agreed to die, permanently, and spend eternity in Hell, then maybe. But he didn't.
Knife in a language that is *not* Diné, and that's the point. It's not what they traditionally call themselves -- it's a name imposed upon them by another group of people.
But as Digital Underground said, "Do what you like." Sheesh.
It's a bastardization of the Spanish word for "knife," and it's a reminder of colonization, NA slavery (the Spanish missions), forced assimilation and being confined to the rez. Some of us are still a little pissed about that.
Wowbagger, OM @ 556;
Piltdown Man should probably be used as a cautionary tale for all subscribers to any form of woo.
This is what can happen in an acute case; you end up trying to establish the existence of literal demonic beings on a science blog to the equal parts hilarity and despair of all.
Then again, Piltdown was an odd chap (or chap-ess, as the case may be) in any case. He or she did see Feudal Monarchy as the ultimate form of government, afterall. This position seemed to be as much motivated by a truly odd sense of constitutional propriety as it was by woo.
Hmmm, it takes all sorts I suppose...
Nice.
Nice.
(Why oh why is my YT so screwed up and sluggish and slow?)
True - he (yes, he was most definitely a he) wasn't just concerned about the afterlife; he was very much concerned about making sure Jesus had a hand in controlling people in pretty much every aspect of this life as well.
Welcome to the new Inquisition - an event he himself attempted to defend by claiming it was all lies invented by Jews and other enemies of Catholicism.
I've certainly never encountered another Catholic like that - while some who've come here (particularly during the cracker incident) were as determined as he, few of them had the same kind of goals in mind for the church.
I am not arguing with you. I am asking for information. No sheeshing is necessary, nor appropriate.
Sorry, "cuchillo"? "puñal"?
does not compute
Do you have a source for that assertion? Can any Españophones chime in here?
Of course. I can assure you that in inquiring after etymology, I am in no way condoning any of that shit.
Najava
John Morales can, but I don't know if he's online atm. Considering the temperature in South Australia today is less than half what it was at the same time yesterday, he may be outside enjoying the cool change.
Der! navaja rather. Sorry that I'm touchy about it. When you're in NM, inquire about the number of reservations that still lack potable water and electricity. In 2010.
navaja?
[Shit. According to my library, I like Little River Band. Shit.
*disturbed*]
There we go! Thank you. Interesting.
For what it's worth, though, some further poking around finds a number of sources that disagree:
www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Navajo
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Navajo
www.wordnik.com/words/Navajo/etymologies
www.tribeazure.com/dictionary.htm
(not that these are necessarily independent from each other)
but ok, my curiosity is slaked.
No worries -- I have "The London Royal Philharmonic Does Madonna" or something to that effect.
SC wrote:
Are you dissing LRB? In Australia them's fightin' words...
OK, fine. Here. Again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bKwRW0l-Qk
Don't like it? You're a fucking soulless moron.
Well, the same can be said for "squaw." Some say it means, "cunt," and some say it doesn't.
Here's the problem we're up against when it comes to NAs, language and etymology -- many of the languages are dead due to assimilation or annihilation. Another problem is that Europeans were running about naming Nations either based on a scout who belonged to a different nation.
So the conversation would go something like this: "Hey, who are those people who live over there?" "They're the [insert scout's tribe's name of group]."
Take the Hetch Hechy Valley in Yosemite. Dude who named it (dude who was also part of the group sent to drive the Natives out of the valley) thought he was naming the valley after the tribe they drove out. "Hetch Hetchy" actually means "Those to be feared -- they are killers."
I had no idea! Indistinct accent.
Geez! What did i do?
I herp derped my derp again!
or they were making up names on their own.
Okay -- I'm giving out bad info tonight, which means it's time for bed.
"Yosemite" comes from "killers," not Hetch Hechy.
TO BED!
@ Gregory Greenwood #553:
Perhaps you mean the zombible thread.
The Stinque Zombie Bible is much better. Check out Job.
Okay, really, I'm going to bed. No more herp derping.
Sorry! Confusing, but not aimed at you at all - just prompted by your comment.
Stinque Zombie Bible
I can't do anything right today...
Sven,
I found this little guy(girl?) scurrying about my campsite near Port-aux-Basques, Newfoundland a few years ago. Sadly, the scurrying quickly became a slow crawl, then a listless form... Always wondered: shrew or vole?
gigi
(positively giddy I can finally sign-in!)
Now that the link's shown up it all makes perfect sense.
Yes, LRB are Australian, at least technically - they were formed here, and the name refers to a country town in Australia - even though two of the lead singers (Glenn Shorrock and John Farnham at different times) were born in the UK. It's Shorrock who sings Cool Change.
what means this?
I should probably--almost certainly--drop this, but I keep thinking about it for some reason. I'm not buying the "knife" hypothesis and here's why:
1. A sentence that seems to have been widely plagiarized around the Web sez:
2. As has been pointed out, "Apachu" might mean "enemies" in Yavapai. BUT:
3. The Spanish navaja apparently refers not to knives in general, but to a specific type of folding pocketknife, which it seems highly unlikely was in use among the peoples of southwestern NA at the time.
4. The alternative hypothesis for the origin of "Navajo" linked above is:
A place name, then, in the language of a neighboring nation.
So the alternative meanings for "Apachu de Nabajo" seem to break down as:
a. enemies with folding pocketknives
b. enemies that live in the land called Navajo
c. people ("Navajos") with folding pocketknives
d. people ("Navajos") that live in the land called Navajo
I have to go with d as the most plausible.
So it probably never was an insult. I'll ask my buddy's friends about this when I visit in April (he has taught middle school for 20 years at the Laguna (or should that be "Kawaik"?) rez).
[all quotes from 'kipedia or Wiktionary]
gigi, that's a shrew all right! (Sorex somethingorother in this case.) Great pic!
...Oh! Knockgoats: War with the Newts was incredible. Perfect SF for me. Wonderful, wonderful book.
Yeah, it's all good.
(Interesting that no one could trick me into disliking things Australian...
:))
Dave Holland is a freakin monstah.
And has been for a long time Coincidentally, I was just listening this afternoon to Miles in Ann Arbor back in '70 with this unbelievable band:
Dave Holland, Chick Corea, Wayne Shorter, Jack DeJohnette, John McLaughlin, & Airto Moriera. Day-um!!!
For me, the eighties was the decade of Goth.
Seriously, Sven? Okay, you ask your friend (is he Native?), and I'll ask one of mine. The friend I chose grew up on a Pueblo in NM and still communes with his peeps when he's not practicing law. Lemme know if that's enough street cred for you.
no shit!
Listening to the Dave Holland Live at Birdland right now.
damn
http://listen.grooveshark.com/#/song/Claressence/22300422
And my point wasn't that it's an insult as "Sioux," "Comanche" and "Eskimo" are; I never said that. My point is that it isn't the nation's real name -- the name they gave to themselves.
Thanks, Sven! Mystery solved, at last.
Considering the location, I think s/he had a fitting send-off - a twig and stick "long boat", cast down the river (NO flames!).
Obligatory music video inserted here. (Okay, no "sails" were involved, but I couldn't figure out how to put oars - or man them - on my last-minute craft project)
The shrew or the vole?
So...one of the best museums I've been to:
http://www.heard.org/
How do you refer to Germans when speaking English? Or the Chinese?
Of course, but I think the issue of self-identification is distinct from the pseudo-rule that a group of people should always be referred to by their native language name in foreign languages. (be careful what you wish for...)
I've just finished Joe Abercrombie's Best Served Cold. It's set in the same universe as his The First Law trilogy. Unfortunately, Best Served Cold is not quite as good as the trilogy. Don't get me wrong, the book is very readable, it's just not as good as I'd hoped it would be.
If you like fantasy then I recommend the trilogy. Abercrombie writes well, his characters are three dimensional, and while magic does work in his universe it's not the central point. It's a character-driven rather than a plot-driven story. One of the characters, Sand den Glockta, is a torturer who's shown quite sympathetically. Another character, Nine Fingers, is a nice guy with a nasty habit of going berserk and killing his friends. But he's really sorry afterwards.
If you do read the trilogy you have to read it in order. Start with The Blade Itself, then read Before They Are Hanged and finish with Last Argument of Kings. I think the trilogy is as good as George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series or Steven Erickson's The Malazan Book of the Fallen series.
But we know so much more now. At the time we were being named, there was a language barrier. We don't have that problem anymore. Language evolves, acrolect and basilect, and our thinking about others changes as well.
IMHO, it's more inclusive to call someone by the correct name -- the name they have historically called themselves. Would the Welsh like to be called English? I doubt it, and my Welsh GGGrandmother would be rolling in her grave if I said I was part English rather than part Welsh.
I still say there's a distinction between choice and imposition, and to have someone else impose their idea of who you are on you is offensive to most people, regardless of ethnicity.
In the case of first nations and other indigenous peoples, we've learned to call "Pygmies" "San," "Eskimos" "Inuit," etc.
I don't mean to belabor the point (I know, too late), but when so much of your identity has been stripped from you (I'm an urban NDN with distant relatives on a rez in NC and one of my ancestors was sent to a missionary school in PA -- I have *no* cultural ties to my Indianess), is it to much to ask that we be called by the proper name?
preferably not as Krauts, which I imagine is the point here.
Snake like enemy, IIRC
Winnebago means stinking water. These are artifacts of the government asking some Indians "What is the name of the tribe that lives over that hill?" Instead of asking the Indian tribe directly. Most Indians called themselves "people" in their native language. Fancy that.
BS
+1
Yes, or "the human beings."
SC, OM @541;
The BEBE vid looked like she did the song solo with only her own, occasional guitar for emphasis. Was I reading that right?
JNOV @550 - "I know Lakota who call themselves "Lakota Sioux" to non-Natives just because it makes life easier."
Or might it be another example of taking back the language?
Anyway, am I the only one here who's disturbed by the idea that robocop is selling his own daughter to another man? I mean, it's not like we're still in the dark-ages, it it? I know there's been a lot of approval on here for same sex marriage, but I never imagined LGBT folk as wanting that.
JNOV, I'm sorry, I know this issue is personal for you. But we can still argue about the facts, right? Diné may be the more appropriate term in this particular case and I am not disputing the right of the people to argue for the use of that term in English, but that doesn't mean that there is a general rule about native language names being the only appropriate ones.
The Welsh call themselves Cymry in the native language. 'Welsh' apparently means something like 'foreigner'.
San are 'Bushmen', not pygmies. And both of the new nouns are still problematic since not all 'Eskimo' are Inuit, and not all 'Bushmen' are San.
--
I'm sorry, but that was stupid. I have not said that we can keep on using names that someone finds offensive, I pointed out that 'Germans' is not what the Germans call themselves or have historically called themselves. You guys didn't really address this example. To me it would seem that the relevant thing is whether the people themselves accept the name, and not whether it matches what the people have 'historically called themselves', right???
I thought "Welsh" meant "to fail to honor a bet". I guess it means "those who spell without vowels".
@eddie: No, she calls herself "Lakota Sioux" because sometimes some people don't know anything about the Lakota, but they know about that Sioux, Crazy Horse.
A lot depends on where you live. I grew up on the East Coast, so my interactions with NAs was non-existent. I drove from NJ to CA, and we stopped in the Black Hills -- that was my first real experience with NAs.
I went to grad school in CA, and I was convinced to join NALSA even though I'm not enrolled in any tribe -- I thought I would be a poser. But I was told that blood quantum was something imposed upon us by the gov't, and that NDN culture is more inclusive. (I'm not talking about tribal law when it comes to tribal voting rights or shares in a tribe's business -- then they *do* often use blood quantum. It's interesting how blood quantum was used first by the gov't to exclude some of us, and now some tribes are using it themselves.)
Anyway, yeah -- to all other NAs, she identified as Lakota, but to non-Natives she identified as Lakota Sioux. Interestingly, she was one of the last NA kids to be adopted by a non-Native family. She grew up in St. Louis, but went back to Rosebud as a social worker.
Gregory Greenwood @ 523:
Yes.
(BTW, is anyone else afflicted with difficulty in the comments box caused by the presence of the pale green band with the copyright info right across the frickin' screen, so as to make it impossible to see what you're typing?)
Well, at least that's not arrogant. :)
When my internet connection is fixed I can answer that.
*pout*
Well, if I knew how to pronounce it, I'd say it proudly! ;-)
Well, there's another example of how our language changes and we adapt and learn. When I was in 7th grade oh so many years ago, I was taught in anthropology class to refer to "Pygmies" as "San Bushmen." Then I learned somewhere along the way that "Bushmen" might be a pejorative, so I stuck with "San."
My point is, I am more than happy, willing and able to learn how another culture that I don't know wants to be addressed. To me, it's a sign of respect. I try my best to give others the respect that I would like to receive, and I try to look at the world through others' eyes and their experiences.
I have a friend who grew up in a tiny town in East Texas. For some reason she took an interest in coming-of-age books written by authors of varying ethnic backgrounds. I loved China Boy, La Maravillia, Always Running -- my point is that I have a natural curiosity about people, places and things, and I want to do my best to get it right, to understand and to learn.
right. and here you are being told to please use the word Diné, because the word Navajo isn't being accepted. so why are you arguing about it?
cicely (#615)
No. Not on Firefox on my PC nor Safari on my iPhone.
But why are you typing directly into the comment box, anyways?! Madness!
Please point to where I have argued against using the word Diné? I thought I was arguing against the inappropriate generalisation that the native language name is always the only 'correct' one.
SC, OM @578;
Good tune, bnut the vid made me want to go back and read this;
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/dolphin_punch
I then found this;
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/apostrophe
but I fear ERV would punch me if I brought it to her attantion.
it should be the preferred one because at least you know you aren't being insulting; whereas using the non-native language one CAN and often IS insulting and even imperialistic.
Ha! I threatened someone here once with a roundhouse kick to the face! OK, not really a threat, actually: he asked how I'd like to be called a c***, and I asked him how he'd like a nice roundhouse... Needless to say, I was then immediately deemed a Violent Militant Atheist (IIRC).
OK, so I looked for a dolphin post on FUP, and somehow turned up this:
http://www.fupenguin.com/2009/03/baby-flamingos-make-my-job-less-fun.ht…
JNOV @#596: Honestly, you've got me all wrong. I meant nothing by way of challenge or street cred or any bullshit like that, I swear. I simply meant that the subject and ideas pursuant to it interested me, and that I intended to pursue them when i had the opportunity to do so in the near future. Then I mentioned the opportunity. Really.
Friends?
&@599: And I should emphasize that I am not arguing with you! I agree with you!
And I'm sorry you think otherwise.
Gah! I now see this has blown up and I should read ahead...
Miep Gies died.
thanks for that tune, Rev
btw dude, cool playlist-radio-thing ("grooveshark")("candygram...flowers")
Everybody--yes! you too!--should go on to play "Conference of the Birds," next tune there.
I would like to take this moment to point out that it is now 21 days until the premiere of the final season of "Lost".
Thank you for your time.
holy shit, did you do that yourself? That should be published. That might be my second favorite sentence of all time. Of ALL TIME!
I'm not kidding.
Sven DiMilo:
Wut?
BS
parallel vowelage, don't you see it?
I like it.
a lot
Now that you point it out, yes. Intentional or inevitable?
BS
I had to wiki miep gies :-(
On a lighter note; A Boy And His Computer is back. The guy who brought you God Hates Shrimp.
Also, Ribbons.
well. sure, me too.
uh.
Here's something interesting:
http://vimeo.com/6298271
This anamostomosed thread sure throbs along!
Wowbagger,
Not online; I work 3 days per week, and I don't log on from work.
The navaja issue seems to be covered already.
One (pedantic) note re the comment though: 22°C is not half the temperature of 44°C.
In fact (rounding off):
22°C = (22+273)K = 295K;
44°C = (44+273)K = 317K;
295/317 = .93 or only 7% cooler.
Just for the sleaze value :
Glenn Beck on the Jay Leno Show
John Morales wrote:
'Only'? It's the most significant 7% change in temperature I've ever experienced. I'm from northern Queensland originally; up there it doesn't vary that much from summer to winter, let alone overnight.
Okay, how's this: the temperature it reached in South Australia was less than half the number of degrees Celsius it reached yesterday.
I don't know why John is basing his "feels subjectively this much cooler" scale on kelvin, but it seems to me that 22 feels much cooler then 44, and by more then 7%, more like half as warm !
LOL
Wow, that's a freaky-looking shrew.
I can't say that I've ever stepped on one, but I don't think it's completely out of the ordinary to see them in the higher latitudes. Maybe it's the light conditions? (But a lot more unlikely than a vole, sure.)
It's still 33 degrees Celsius in Canberra right now.
I suggest that you test your theory by swimming in water that's only 7% cooler than 22°C.
Well, after the hottest night since 1902 with 33.2 degrees as the minimum, it got to 36 or so before the change came through today, and it's now 19...The message for PZ here is, bring your bathers and the long coat !!
Thus spake Rorschach:
Fighting his Pharyngula addiction.
I don't have a whole lot of time to indulge it at the moment except for the very occasional lurk and even rarer post. I'm in CA now, so hopefully I'll get to see PZ on his upcoming tour.
And, while I think of it, don't tell me this is still the same damn thread!
I thought "Welsh" meant "to fail to honor a bet". I guess it means "those who spell without vowels". - Antiochus Epiphanes
That was a later insult; "Welsh" is indeed the Anglo-Saxon for "foreigner". "Cymry" is pronounced something like "Cumrue". Wales is "Cymru", pronounced "Cumri": y and w are vowels in Welsh, which is highly phonetic - I learned to pronounce it during my 18 months in Aberystwyth. According to my wife, though, it's a pig to learn beyond that, because like other Celtic languages it has consonantal mutation:
cath cat
ei gath his cat
ei chath her cat
However, I can tell you that "dim parcio" means "no parking" (most streets in Aberystwyth are "dim parcio", but all the residents know that there are only certain places where they really mean it), and "jam" means "jam" ("j" occurs only in words borrowed from English).
Oh but it is Mr Caulfield !!
:-)
Good to see you pop in, hope all is well !!
Maori means normal.
When the first Europeans came to New Zealand they asked "What type of people are you?"
"Myers"....yr a kike, right?
guess that explains yr antipathy towards xtianity then, eh?!?
ohh....howz abt utilising some of that "atheistic critical thinking" to debunk "the Hoax of the Twentieth Century"....."the Holocaust"?
ohh.....thass-right....you won't....yr a kike, right!
there's no bizness like 'shoah' bizness, eh, jew-boy?!?
RAHOWA!
Troll spill @ 649, cleanup please....
Phew! Did someone dump a truckload of pig-shit on this thread?
Ah, no, I see, it's just a passing Nazi troll.
I do lurrrves me some Hartmann-Skitt-McKean.
And who the hell needs reasons to punch dolphins? Just do it, as they* say.
*they, you know, them
I did say it was pedantic — no need to tell me! ;)
(This post is 7% less pedantic than my previous.)
Those lead paint chips were tasty weren't they?
Yeah Grooveshark is very cool.
@Sven: Friends indeed! My of my friends who identifies as Diné adds a bit of (good-natured!) snark to the the discussion:
Have a great day, all! Sorry about the threadjack last night, but this is an open thread, yes?
This deserves embedding.
I knew it had epicyclic gear to match the best models of the day, but actually seeing them and the retrograde motion on the dial is just ... I have no words.
::dopeslaps self:: Preview, Beth, preview. Use it!
@windy and Knockgoats: How's this?
JNOV,
Sorry, I think the adjective you want may be "Cymraeg" - that's certainly Welsh as in "the Welsh language"; "Cymry" is the noun Welsh as in "the Welsh like daffodils". However, you'll have to do your own research if you want to be sure of being right!
Good guggamugga! How's this?
Welsh is a fascinating language. But I must confess, tho' it may go without saying, that frequently, on first encounter of most written Welsh, my initial reaction is something like: 'Oh c'mon... They're just making that up! It's some kind of elaborate joke... They just want to see me try to say it, at which point, they'll collapse on the floor, their shoulders shaking uncontrollably with incomprehensible Welsh giggles'...
(/In related news, the land of my upbringing has many, many locales--lakes, mostly--with names coming from various native languages. They aren't actually that hard to pronounce, once you get to know them, but at first blush, they do have a certain daunting polysyllabic quality about them... A friend of mine from a way back once confessed to me it was his suspicion that every single one of those words actually just means 'Let's see Whitey pronounce this one'...)
And while we're on the topic of the languages of the British Isles, may I interest you in some Gàidhlig?
This is one of my favorite songs ever:
If you have 10 mins to waste
http://www.chilloutzone.de/files/player.swf?b=10&l=197&u=ILLUMllSOOAvIF…
Oh, that reminds me - meant to post this yesterday:
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/11/white_power_usa_the_rise_of
@Rev. BigDumbChimp: that is beyond cool! I think Hitchcock would have preferred one continuous camera shot, but I still love it nonetheless. Must've been hell getting about the house while setting that up.
@SC OM: Ugh. You might be interested in this blog: Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism. Brian Levin is a good egg.
I love me some sung Gaelic. Makes me want to tear off my clothes and repulse the invaders.
Where's my pike?
@Antiochus Epiphanes: Well, Ashley did display proper kilt attire...
I must confess, tho' it may go without saying, that frequently, on first encounter of most written Welsh, my initial reaction is something like: 'Oh c'mon... They're just making that up! - A.J.Milne
As I said, it's very phonetic, so mostly easy once you know the sound-values of the letters when they differ from English:
"u" is a short English "i" as in "hit";
"y" is an English "u" as in "cut" (but a bit longer I think);
"w" is English "oo" as in "loon";
"f" is English "v";
"ff" is English "f";
"ch" is the throat-clearing sound as in Scottish "loch";
"dd" is a soft English "th" as in "there";
"ll" is a sound found in few languages - putting your tongue behind your upper teeth and expelling air sharply will give a reasonable approximation. Again according to my wife, this really is tricky - it's the last sound Welsh-speaking children acquire.
53,216 Austrians left the Catholic Church in 2009, reducing it from 5.8 to 5.3 million out of a total population of 8 million. Only 40,654 had done so in 2008.
And what exactly was that about Josh, Dania, and the paper sack…? :-}
In other words, he didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition, was embarrassed by that, and tried to dig his way out of that hole.
Appears to mean different things in closely related languages.
(With these same meanings, this happened in Indo-European, too. <theatrically raised index finger> If you reverse-engineer wife and then forward-engineer it into Tocharian, you arrive at kwipe; that word really existed – I forgot if Tocharian A, B, or both – and designated the female genitals, though perhaps not at the same stylistic level as "cunt".)
Shrew. Look at the snout.
That would explain this article and this one.
That's actually not clear about "Eskimo". It might just mean "nets a snowshoe" in languages of southeastern Canada.
Ouch, ouch, ouch. First, the San are the Bushmen, not any pygmies, but that's almost beside the point. The point is that "San" isn't a self-designation, it's from some Khoikhoi (Hottentot) language or other and means "outsider". It's pejorative. Reportedly, Bushmen in South Africa prefer to be called "Bushmen" over "San".
There is no self-designation of the entire language family as a whole.
It might specifically mean "Celt", later shifted to "Romance-speaker" on the mainland (the archaic/poetic German word welsch means "Italian", for instance… and behold the walnut). Some think it comes from the name of a Celtic people that the Romans called Volcae.
Y is a vowel, and W is a vowel at least half of the time… Welsh is actually pretty unspectacular consonant-cluster-wise.
No. Either it was a temporary ScienceBorg software glitch, or you just need to get a browser that dates from 2005 or later. :->
Where else? Do you mean you type in Word and copy & paste afterwards? That would be much too cumbersome for me.
Oh dear. :-} Someone here doesn't seem to understand what atheism means.
Someone here further doesn't seem to know that PZ comes from a Lutheran family and was Lutheran before he deconverted.
Stop your wishful thinking, moron.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_for_the_German_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terms_used_for_Germans
You omitted an important one: except in ch, c is always [k], no matter what follows. The letter k isn't used.
If that clears your throat, you're doing it wrong. It's no further back than k or g.
It's this sound, found in lots and lots of languages, just very few in Europe.
Learn it here.
Just going by what my teacher told me in 1980. I was told "Eskimo" meant "eaters of raw flesh/cannibals" in an Inuit language. Thankfully, we learn and we grow. I'm learning, and I'm paying close attention to what you all are sharing with me.
Back to 1980 and what my 7th grade anthropology teacher taught us. IIRC, we were reading about the Leakys' work. I'm sure much has changed since 1980, and I appreciate the updated information.
Gotta run for now, but I look forward to learning more soon. Thank you.
Vaguely. It's [ə], and unlike in English it can be stressed.
BTW, JNOV, you can nest blockquotes:
<blockquote><blockquote>test</blockquote></blockquote>
<blockquote>test
<blockquote>test</blockquote>
test</blockquote>
(…Except that, for some people, the <blockquote> tag stops after the first paragraph. Seems to depend on the browser or something.)
An Algonquian one, if any.
The Leakeys can't possibly have confused the Congo rainforest with the Kalahari (semi)desert… :-)
xkcd on the existence of G-spot,
Scrolling mouse over: "The BBC lead was 'The elusive erogenous zone said to exist in some women may be a myth, say researchers who have hunted for it.' I couldn't read it with a straight face."
There's no generally acceptable term for the San/Bushmen/Baswara, because they speak a number of mutually unintelligible languages, and they do not consider themselves a single people, and so have no such term themselves.
A voiceless velar fricative?
A voiced dental fricative?
Is there such thing as a dental approximant?
SC @541: I loved the BEBE video. Thanks for the music from beyond our shores.
REV @591: Oh, that was lovely. Dave Holland music plus interview. "Thank you all very much!"
Sili @657: Wow. I watched that twice. I'm mesmerized by the retrograde movement. Antikythera -- evidence of OCD in Greece.
Rorschach: You're so cute when you're pedantic about celsius.
When it came to the discussion about names and sounds, I just waited for David M. to clear things up. David contributes to my laziness, and I like it.
Hi, windy, fellow Alaskan. Are there other Alaskans, former or present, on this thread?
This Thread Can Not Be Jacked!
it was only 3 min long, but wow. Rube Goldberg in cardboard, pool balls, violin bows, and duct tape; love it. Was that a polo mallet?
that's gotta be a fun place to work. More power to 'em though. I hate Illinois nazis.
uh...
I love these little nuggets of trivial knowledge. And those little nuggets of protein and lipids.
Man. Looking now at the sudden weird temporal hole in commenting, can I assume that it was server-side borkage that took SB seriously offline, and not something just local to me?
phew!
The Thread was down for a while there and I am recovering from hyperventilation.
Hokay.
First,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bwoGbpYXRw
Lynna: I believe windy's a Finn Suomalaiset
That's a relief. I was seeing some odd stuff, back there. Blogs appearing, disappearing... Commented on a thread at Living the Scientific Life, and it's like that made just that post vanish. So I'm thinking it prolly has something to do with the commenting system overhaul.
David Marjanović (#671)
Nah, just a text editor. Word is too annoying with the autocorrect and autoformat crap. It's more cumbersome to me to keep scrolling up to quote people while writing in the comment box. It's also much harder to check my tags in that tiny space (and I learned long ago not to depend on the preview feature). Plus, there's less risk of losing the whole post to the whims of the internet. Like when I refresh before posting and find out that the entire thread has mysteriously disappeared.
(#675)
I think that browser-based stupidness can be overcome if people enclose their blockquotes in <p> tags with <br> where they want line breaks. So this: <p><blockquote>Line one<br>Line two</blockquote></p> results in this:
~*~*~*~*~*~
Sven DiMilo (#681)
Speaking of trivial knowledge and nuts... did you know there's an edible pseudofruit that grows above every cashew and that some people eat this "cashew apple" and toss the nut?
Next, what is easily and by far the Strangest Guitar Lesson of All Time. Of ALL TIME!
WARNING: High weirdness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6P0hhoLTak
I can't figure out whether I am totally fascinated or totally squicked by this guy. He is clearly a virtuoso of some sort, but wow...that brain is badly tweaked.
There are plenty of vids of his live performances out there, all jaw-dropping. (Rev BDC, have you caught his live act?)
If you think he's faking, find the vid of him arriving in an airport. Dude is...unusually wired.
Or something.
It was down for me too. This thread went away, followed by some others, then the main page for a while. Finally situation reversed itself, easing the withdrawal symptoms.
Now this is what I call a political campaign!!!
A Modern Recital in Sight and Sound
(or: Ever have one of those days?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3iVfq47H_k
RIP Art Clokey
Ah, but this is a British plot to recreate the empire using gritBritish-"cooking"-plated tanks et al. And the British do everything sideways (rotated by c.90°). For instance, whilst the rest of the world makes planes that take off and land more-or-less horizontally, the British make planes that take off and land more-or-less vertically. (We should be thankful they rotated the concept around the axis parallel to the ground. Had they rotated the concept around the axis perpendicular to the ground, the plane would take off by zooming sideways into the airport terminal. Or, more likely, this being a British plane, into the nearest pub.)
Applying this same design "skill" to an underwater lair built above the current sealevel, the domes would be sitting on their rims, with the open "bottoms", well, open. The rising sealevel would indeed sink the lair. Literally.
Yeah I've seen him a couple of time as a guest artist type thing.
His a strange one, but he rips.
Better than a crocoduck
If you are using FireFox, there's several extensions which make it easy to create/edit text in a proper text editor. They operate in slightly different ways, but the basic idea is you click an added button or menu associated with the text box, the editor pops up (containing the current text, if any, in the box). You can edit away, save it, whatever, and then when you are done, the edited text is what's in the text box. No copy-and-paste is required.
The one I usually is Mozex, and another I sometimes use is It's-All-Text. (I seem to recall finding a third one, but I've never tried it and the name now escapes me.)
To a large extent, the existence of these extensions is why I use FireFox instead of Opera. When I'm just browsing and don't expect to be filling in forms, commenting on blogs, and so on, I much prefer Opera. Unfortunately, I'm unware of anything similar for Opera. ;-(
Ten solid minutes of purest WTF:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K33vWsRAYlg
holy.
shit.
And finally, was anyone else lucky enough to see BaconOrBeercan.com during its short-lived existence (apaarently over a month, but I just saw it yesterday)?
(Unfortunately, there were bandwidth issues or something, because all that's there now is a crappy drawing.)
There was a flash script showing a Jamaican guy, I think Peter Tosh (screen cap). Two buttons labled "Bacon" and "Beer Can."
No matter which of the buttons you'd push, the dude would pronounce the exact same word.
Something like "bay-a-cahn." It was funny as hell.
And just right for The Thread.
Welsh
From my limited experience with Welsh speakers the language tends to be:
* lilting (you can understand why poetry and bards fit so well)
* apparently higher pitch than English especially when said quietly) and often going up in pitch towards the end of the sentence, even if it is not a question - either that or most Welsh is in a question form. It can be almost sing-song, again explaining Welsh male-voice choirs?
* said quickly (same thing goes for English spoken by people from Wales even if they are not native Welsh speakers)
The last point. I struggled to understand one guy who I had to deal with occasionally even when he was speaking English and slowing down for me. The effect of all the other factors meant I could catch about 1 word in 3.
Three things go deep in the Welsh psyche.
* The Chapel. Non-conformist religion with singing is a powerful mix.
* Mining - mostly known for coal but copper mining was hugely important. It enabled the British navy to go into battle with copper sheathing on the hull of the ships which reduced damage by wood borers.
* A deep love for their country.
So, now for something special - first a hymn but one of the great pieces of music, sung as it only can be at the Millenium Stadium in Cardiff:
Cwm Rhonda
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZh0WNz_U7M&feature=related
Next, another hymn: 'Gresford'. Not a male voice choir but brass band music. A hymn in honour of those who died at Gresford in Wales in 1934 in one of the worst coal mining disasters in the UK. Only 11 bodies were recovered from the mine after the explosion. That section of the mine was never reopened and the bodies of the remaining 254 (or 255) victims were not recovered. Forget the church environment. "Enjoy" the poignant music. (I have a story to tell about 'Gresford')
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSnpMDO57Jg&feature=related
Lastly, the Welsh National Anthem, 'Land of My fathers". Again at the Cardiff Millenium Stadium with the whole crowd singing their hearts out! Accompanied by one of the ugliest groups of men you would ever not want to meet on the rugby pitch!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wRRY8eDMSY&feature=related
@671:
The Husband is in charge of Care and Feeding of Techtoys; it is Written that I shall not presume to question his choice of software, and he shall not question my spelling, grammar, or pronouncements on certain areas of history of which he knows (and cares) nought.
At any rate, the pale green band has gone back to squatting at the bottom of the page, where it belongs.
@687:
Oooh, oooh! I did! It's amazing what trivial nuggets come up in a D&D context. Seems the nut is guarded by a caustic substance that makes its collection difficult; also, the cashew apple is sometimes made into jam or liquor.
(More than one?) Yes, that's what we call ourselves back in the old country. I just work in a different frozen wasteland...
Which is the better actor. Dustin Hoffman, the father, or Phillip Seymour Hoffman, the son?
drudgereport.com wouldn't ever try and influence politics would they? No, of course not...
Total google-fu on my part, single/plural distinction notwithstanding.
So, wait, you are in Alaska? I missed that.
blf (#695)
Yeh, well, I keep mine open with several different tabs devoted to various things besides typing up blog posts, like tracking blogs and webcomics, witty quotes, URLs of things to check out later, random notes, etc. Besides, even if you can save your progress with an extension like you mention, would it help with other problems, like constantly scrolling if you do lots of quoting?
~*~*~*~*~*~
cicely (#701)
I picked "cashew" at random to check whether Google Image was behaving on my mother's computer. Now I kind of want to taste a cashew apple. Too bad they're extra perishable.
So I was putting together my Intro to Zoology course BlackBoard page for next semester, and I always include a list of my favorite course-relevant vids, and I thought maybe you-all might enjoy them too. It's ever-growing (you'll recognize many from here), but here's the current version:
http://terrapinprocrastination.blogspot.com/2010/01/my-favorite-zoology…
I got the blank page, too, and even a "server cannot be found" message for a short time.
Currently eating purée made with milk that is... I need to read again what it says on the bottle, but apparently it's not pasteurized. It's ultrafiltered instead. Surprisingly, it's less good for drinking than the usual one; it tastes like it was heated too much, not to little. Bought in an ordinary big supermarket, in case you're wondering. The purée is fine.
Exactly.
Yes, the Spanish d most of the time.
In extreme cases (once every few months) I open the thread in two tabs.
Ctrl+A and Ctrl+C before clicking "Submit".
@David M: Thanks for the HTML lesson among other lessons learned.
Guess instead of IIRC, IRIC. ;-)
I have an update on a topic from an earlier incarnation of The Thread. (No, I have no interest in starting a discussion of said topic. At all.)
Remember back in October when Hyperon tried pathetically to justify calling me a "bitch" by linking to a post on RD.net where Richard Dawkins called someone that, on the ridiculous assumption that no one calling him out on it would dare criticize Dawkins?
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/09/the_horror_express.php#comme…
I mentioned it to Ophelia Benson at the time, and when I just checked one of my email accounts I found that she sent me an update from a recent thread
http://richarddawkins.net/articles/4868
where Dawkins regrets any extent to which his has become "that kind of site" she (Ophelia) would find hostile, and explained and apologized (technically, apologised) for having called someone that (posts #299 and I think #306 on pages 6 and 7). So, I guess Hyperon's going to have to revoke Dawkins' membership in the Calls Women Bitches Club and keep looking for his dream atheist site where sexist bigots can feel at home.
Yes, this thread has been delightfully romantic.
Oh, if we're gonna talk about playas, we gotta talk about My One True Love:
The SG. I'll take Derek Trucks, too...
ADD: Even though I'm a godless atheist and a recovering fundamentalist Christian, I do miss church music. The above song reminds me of the only thing I enjoyed about worshiping/fearing/loathing the Sky Daddy.
Derek Trucks is a mad man. I've seen him since he was a mere pup. Once of the top 5 shows I've ever seen was during Jazzfest three years ago when he played with the Funky Meters at the House of Blues. Not just guest appearance, played the whole show.
Um,
god
damn
I saw him in Philly at the TLA. Intimate venue -- wonderful show. I love that he's shy and plays with his back to the audience sometimes.
Have you seen this? (Forgive the Mayer):
Then there's Trucks, Clapton and Winwood (this song makes me blue and give me goosebumps):
Last video -- PROMISE!
I'm working on this (I'm still learning to bend well, and the alternate tuning had me stymied for awhile):
David Marjanović (#708)
First, that doesn't help if your browser/computer dies halfway through writing it. Second, if you're like me, you're doing six other things while submitting posts and might copy something else to the clipboard without thinking, losing the post. That's not, um, as hypothetical as I wish it was. In fact, given how much I navigate by reflex, ctrl+a, ctrl+c, alt+tab, ctrl+v is exponentially safer.
A. Noyd, if your expectation of your browser/computer dying halfway through writing a comment is >ε, you have real problems!
Okay -- I kind of lied. This is Sunny War. She's a self-taught street musician in Venice, CA. I think she wrote this song when she was 16 or younger; she's 18 in the vid. She's also *tiny*, but she's got the fingers to play the hell out of that Jumbo. Some people hate her voice, but check out the lyrics and the finger-picking. (I hate picks.) I want to be Sunny one day...
Thank you for filling us in about that, SC OM. I particularly liked Ophelia Benson's comments #208, #220, #232, #261, #262; and Richard Dawkins' comment #299 and his apology #305. I have to say, I am a little relieved that it was a quick but poor choice of wording rather than a deliberate misogynistic putdown. Good on him!
JNOV, could you just link to videos, rather than embed them, unless you think its particularly appropriate?
One or two in a thread is no biggie, but many really clags up the works, and PZ has requested temperance about it in the past — nice to have the option, but if it's overdone we'll probably end up losing the privilege.
Oh, no! I'm sorry. I won't embed anymore.
Scientists -- here's my question for you: Why does music sometimes give me goosebumps? Certain harmonies and chord progressions do it to me every time.
When I'm feeling diligent (about once or twice a year), I write posts in Notepad (or similar), and copy onto the website comment box. Otherwise I just takes my chances and curse.
Yes, the milk is unpasteurized. And its otherwise unpleasant taste has one advantage – 3.6 instead of the usual 3.5 % fat! (3.6 is the percentage I grew up with.) One should think I couldn't notice, but apparently I can. The 3.8 % of Swiss milk are almost too much...
Put on a broad grin and sing this here. I'd like to sing it in chorus, and then fall over myself laughing. :-D
(Just don't overdo it.)
Happens to me once every few weeks or months in the lab (Safari 1.3.2 for Mac – the current version of Safari is 4) and, IIRC, never so far in IE8 for Windows.
Ah. When I copy something to the clipboard, I almost feel it in my right hand till I paste it, or even longer... :-) – that gives me an inhibition against copying the next thing. Almost never fails.
JNOV, it's really OK to do it now and then, if there's a reason (e.g. the Sunny War vid, she really is tiny, eh?). :)
Re your question, I'm no scientist, but you may find useful references to follow here: Music cognition.
(For me, Wikipedia is not a definitive reference, rather a glorified search engine).
JNOV, I diagnose you as being feckin' insane ... but in a good way. :-)
Actually, your responses to music sound like a form of Synesthesia (also spelled synæsthesia or synaesthesia, plural synesthesiae or synaesthesiae)—a neurologically-based condition in which stimulation of one sensory or cognitive pathway leads to automatic, involuntary experiences in a second sensory or cognitive pathway.
Raw milk -- I get it when I can afford it. It's better for you (if you're going to drink milk meant for cows), and it tastes great when fresh. Lancaster, PA isn't far from Philly, so we have a lot of fresh, slow food available. Raw milk does spoil quickly cuz it's not pasteurized, so drink up!
Haha! I'm still trying to decide which version of "The Internationale" I like best.
Indeed! She's itty bitty. Here's an article about her.
Thanks for the link to the music cognition article -- I'm off to read it now...
And, again, I'm sorry about the embed abuse. I get slap happy when talking git-tar (as we call it in Philly.)
@Lynna: Is that the condition some have when they have visual hallucinations (like of colors) when they hear music?
@Lynna: And, oh yes, I am batshit. :-*
apparently Haiti was just hit by a major earthquake. I didn't know Haiti was in an earthquake zone. Can someone with more geology than I have (not hard!) speak to this?
Citation, please.
There is a reason why milk is pasteurized and it's not to make it worse for you.
a quick check reveals that Haiti is on the edge of the Carribean Plate. The movements of plates at this particular spot completely escape my understanding, but it seems to be considered a rather active site...
The lawyer for the anti-gay marriage crowd produced some real howlers during the trial that challenges the legality of Prop 8. The lawyer named Cooper said, for example,
Bwahahahaha! "Socially approved sexual intercourse!" I'm going to try that phrase on my boyfriend.
Becca, Google Map shows a Richter 7 earthquake, with a 10 km deep epicenter. That area is near a couple of tectonic plates, and some of the island appears to be, or have been, volcanic. Something moved quickly, and my guess is a couple of the plates.
nevermind the socially approved sexual intercourse... marriage is about the production of children? last I checked, marriage is not in the slightest necessary for that, and marriage legislation for/against gays isn't going to have any effect at all on breeding.
::sigh::
Of course, this site will be called out for bias. Here's a little about Holsteins, and then there's this overview. To paraphrase Digital Underground, "Do what you like. [Drink] what you like..."
*headdesk*
That should be Google Earth, not Google Map.
You can surf around this raw milk site, too.
The raw milk I get is delivered twice a week in glass half-gallon bottles. It comes directly from the farm. The cows range a pasture, etc., etc. I pay a deposit on the bottles and get a refund when I return them to the store.
Yes, sort of. It's not exactly a hallucination. Babies are born as natural synesthetes. Their brains have not sorted out all the sensory pathways yet, so they may experience a loud noise as a color or other visual effect. Many artists and poets retain some form of synesthesia into adulthood.
If you see your lover smile and experience it as a sweet scent, that's synesthesia. If the number 4 is always blue to you, or if, like the poet Wallace Stevens, you experience "the green freedom of a cockatoo" that's synesthesia.
Here's an excerpt from "AFTER THE FUNERAL" by Dylan Thomas
I know her scrubbed and sour humble hands
Lie with religion in their cramp, her threadbare
Whisper in a damp word, her wits drilled hollow,
Her fist of a face died clenched on a round pain;
And sculptured Ann is seventy years of stone.
"round pain" and "damp word" are not the clearest of synesthesia examples, but they still strike me as associations of the concrete sensation of touch (round and damp) with the more abstract "pain" and "word." Ditto for “wits drilled hollow.”
Excerpt from the poem "NONCOMPLIANT" by Dean Young
I was born in Pennsylvania before
the plain folk discovered amyl nitrate
and elected a stripper regent.
We had two pleasures: swimming in clouds
which we called prayer and going to the fridge
in the sweaty night and pausing there
in the cold exhale of light...
I'll leave it you to ferret out Dean Young's use of synesthesia.
N.B. If you can't get fresh raw milk, then, yes, pasteurization is the way to go if you're going to drink milk intended for calves.
John Morales (#718)
Hey, I can't help it that I'm so easily distracted it takes me at least three times as long to write posts compared to normal people! Or did you mean problems with my computer?
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David Marjanović
Freak! But how about this. I spend so much time on the computer, sometimes I'll try to use ctrl+f to find something I'm looking for IRL. It would be so convenient if that worked. Can't find your other sock? Ctrl+f. Cat hiding because she doesn't want her pill? Ctrl+f. And so on.
~*~*~*~*~*~
Lynna (#733)
I do hope they make him name and define exactly which acts aren't on the "approved" list. Because, these days, I'm sure at least one conservative politican or church figure has been caught doing anything he might mention. Revolting pack of hypocrites.
JNOV, presumably "raw" human milk is even better for humans.
There's a good business idea... if consumers can be inured to the 'squick' factor. :)
That's just what I was thinking, John, Morales. Apparently we could all benefit from wet nurses for adults.
Fucking errant comma snuck into my comment @743. IIRC, the Rev BDC is responsible for errant punctuation, as well as for misspellings. Rev's powerful cooties!
I'm only willing to drink it straight from the original container.
I was gonna cite Daniel Ash as an example of virtuoso guitar;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqekgCTvwes&feature=related
but buckethead takes the cake. Thanks Sven diMillo. Punk is not all about noise.
@Lynna: Hmmmm...I totally love "NONCOMPLIANT," and I get it -- it's emotive. But I can't tell you why. I do feel the "cold exhale of light" when I open the fridge. And, yes, prayers swim "in the clouds..." as do people when they feel "The Holy." "The Holy" being that inexplicable (as far as I know) phenomenon most people have (religious of not) at least once in their lives. They "know" with absolute certainty that they are part of something greater, that their lives have meaning, that everything is going to be alright. I don't know what causes this feeling, I think it's biological and not divine, but I've felt it, even as an atheist.
Haha! Reminds me of the scene from "Borat" where they were making cheese...
::SNORT::
JNOV,
Well, I'm in my 50th year, and I've never felt a feeling I'd honestly describe as 'holy'. Though I cry at soppy movies, and when reading (and re-reading) such as David Gemmell books; I don't think my emotions are broken.
I've felt moments of, um, 'significance' or perhaps even immanence¹, I've felt déjà vu, but never anything such as you describe.
And, if I did, I'm pretty sure I'd be analytical and skeptical about it.
--
¹ Mainly in dream-states.
Sorry, JNOV, but the risk of tuberculosis and other milk-borne diseases is too great for me to properly appreciate the supposed benefits of raw milk.
Also, having googled "raw milk" I came across too many sites praising the naturalness of raw milk and decrying the unnaturalness of pasteurized milk. My woo-meter spiked several times reading some of those sites. So I'll continue getting my moo-juice adulterated by unnatural pasteurization.
Tried some.Always ends in tears.
:D
@John: You youngster! There's time yet... ;-)
@'TisHimslef: 'Tis cool. 'Tis cool. I prefer the taste and the fact that the cows aren't udder-deep in their own excrement as they are at some uber-large dairy farms. So, yes. If you're getting your milk from a dairy where the cows are penned in such a way that they can't turn their bodies, pasteurization is the way to go. If you don't know where you milk originates, pasteurization is the way to go.
I like that the raw milk I purchase is fresh, tastes great (the cream at the top is an added bonus), the cows lead pretty normal cow lives, they eat a pretty normal cow diet, and I'm supporting local farmers and keeping my carbon footprint slightly smaller by virtue of the fact that the stuff isn't trucked in from afar. These things are important to me. I've yet to get sick from drinking it, so I like the whole process.
JNOV,
Regarding music and goosebumps/shivers, etc. There are lots of very sensitive nerves in the ears, not only those that pick up sound, but also those associated with balance, orientation, etc. Moreover, music is an acoustic wave--the entire body will respond to it sympathetically. Does the intensity (loudness) of the music affect the feeling?
But then there is the feeling of music that transcends the physical--when you hear the music and you know the feeling that Bach or Beethoven or Mozart was trying to convey across hundreds of years and the isolation of the individual human psyche. That, too gives shivers, but it ain't physics.
ADD: And I prefer the reused glass bottles, unless the whole phthalate thing sets your woo meter off, too.
SC @ 710,
So from reading that thread, RD.net has similar sexist demographics and problems with troll posters as us here.
What I really do not like about some of the regular commenters there is this attitude of their forum being all high-and-mighty, and everywhere else on the net, including Pharyngula, is a cesspool of juvenile yelling, screaming and sexism.
This attitude also seems to be implied in Miss Benson's "one of those sites" line.
@a_ray_in_dilbert_space: It's not the decibel level -- it's the chord progressions or harmonies. Certain parts of "Kashmir" do it to me (and once I did see colors when I was listening to it, but I was BAKED), Beethoven's "Symphony No. 7 In a Major, Op. 92: II Allegretto" (especially the Lenny Berstein recording) and parts of Ashley MacIsaac's rendition of "Sleepy Maggie" do it to me. Certain harmonies in Gospel music do it to me -- and it always happens at the same part of the song every time I listen to it. It's a great feeling -- I'd say it's transcendent -- but it's freaky, too.
really? of all the sites on the internet that aren't explicitly feminist, this is one of the least sexist ones I know(not that we don't have sexism problems... your "joke" above being rather not-funny in that kind of way, for example; and of course the standard sexist trolls we get here, too.)
Hi JNOV. All your comments have been great, but please don't embed vids. There used to be a lot more of embedding but it makes the page-load times really bad.
Love the tunes, tho. I could care less about the documentaries with a wee bit of tune in them.
Wow, another Symphony No. 7 fan. That's actually my favorite Beethoven work after Moonlight Sonata--but then you never forget your first love. I managed to make it to high school thinking I didn't like classical music. One day, I was hanging with a girl I had the hots for and she proposed putting on some classical music. I reluctantly said OK, and the first movement of the sonata opened the door to classical music for me.
I think my mother has the same reaction, but mostly to Broadway show tunes, sadly.
I did have some pretty odd feelings at times listening to Indonesian Gamelan music in Yogyakarta, and there really is nothing quite like a gamelan accompaniment to a Balinese shadow puppet theater presentation of the Ramayana for disorientation.
Oh I totally agree ! And since sexism is everywhere in society, it will show up in internet forums too, so why would RD.net be any exception? (Obviously in this case it was about RD himself, not other posters)
@eddie: Yes, I'm sorry. Mea culpa, and it won't happen again.
@diblert: You might like this by Penn Masala. It's an a capella mix of hip-hop and Hindi. Although I'm a big fan of old-skool hip hop, I don't like these lyrics so much. The Hindi parts give me goosebumps.
Hitler learns Leno is moving back to Late Night
Once again eddie should catch up.
@dilbert: And then there's "Forgive our Fathers Suite" by Ulali. This is a snippet from "Smoke Signals." Here's the entire song.
@eddie: :-D
JNOV,
I have often wondered if the difference between US and French cheese might not have something to do with the fact the French use raw milk. The studies I've seen show that the Us stuff is more likely to be contaminated with harmful bacteria--the theory being that nothing can survive in the French cheese but the disired mix of molds, bacteria...and of course flavor.
I think if Sarah Palin gets elected, that's where the wife and I will apply for refugee status.
ARIDS, I think if Sarah Palin gets elected, the flying pig escort will be amongst the least of the signs and wonders to behold. :)
The new Kids in The Hall series, Death Comes To Town started with a bang. Laffed me arse off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdfNTO_o-3k
Very lovely, but I wonder if those musicians couldn't do a better job without the traffic cop. This is good music but the opposite of the deadhead attitude.
@dilbert: Heh. Yeah, I've been wondering if I should say "Bygones!" to that whole Huguenot business and see if the Fraanch will take me back...
I can confirm the difference between raw milk cheese and pasteurized milk cheese, even for the same kind of cheeses, produced in the same countries, and sold at the same price-level stores.
I don't buy that you can't have good raw milk cheese in the U.S., though. You can, it just can't be from feedlot-cows, since those are ill animals who have all sorts of nasty stuff in their udders that comes out with the milk.
Installing Flash Block also helps with page load times. :)
Yes, and you're much more polite than I am, so I'll go ahead and say it: That nasty stuff is often puss.
I just listened to both Rorschach's link @762 and Beethoven's 7th from my last comment at the same time. Spooky!
Okay -- time for me to stop commenting like a crack-addicted hamster.
Night! :-*
oh, and since we're talking about the U.S. and raw milk cheese, I feel like sharing this:
1)I like Dutch raw cheeses, even the stuff sold at the airport.
2)It is impossible to even buy a raw cheese at Schiphol if you're flying to the U.S., because the U.S. won't let you bring that stuff into the country.
3)Mailing Dutch raw cheese bought on the way into Europe to the U.S. (in a sealed and perfumed box labeled "snacks") works just fine though :-D
*nom nom nom*
Appropriate for this place: The Endless Enigma (Part One) (Emerson, Lake & Palmer - Trilogy)
Full? Already? Continue the rampage here.