This is an embarrassingly stupid, but quite serious, question:
Is it pronounced eevo-deevo or evvo-devvo?
Unfortunately I'll be doing a radio show at 1 on Friday so I'll not be able to make the seminar, but any plans for a meet up later in the day PZ?
eeevo-deeeevo.
I'm also doing a talk in the evening, but we certainly should be doing something fun afterwards.
Fucking hell, a new season of Lost starting on telly AND getting to see Prof Myers, all in the same week?
Oh frabjous day!
Looking forward to it.
We need to have a secret symbol to identify all pharyngulites.
But PZ, are you a catholic atheist or a protestant athiest?
Be sure to blaspheme both sides equally, lest they complain that the other side got an easier PZ. Stupid xtians, same faith, same region, same European Union, but numerous deaths and wounded...
And the most euphemistic euphemism; the troubles.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. I'm working Friday afternoon... please, reschedule the entire thing just so I can come. :)
Crack That Whip!
And don't forget to follow any humourous comments you might make during your talks in Belfast with putting on a Northern Irish accent and shouting "That's a cracker!"
Don't ask. Just do it and hear the roar.
I just finished watching a bunch of Robert Llewellin videos where he picks up "notables" and ferries them around for a video chat. I think you should get him to drag his Prius up to give you a ride between pubs and seminars - he just carpooled with Rebecca Watson - what better follow-up than you?
Yes, I watch Red Dwarf. why do you ask?
JC
I would love to go, but was wondering what time it starts? is it 1800 or 1300? hope it's later!
Damn, shame my student days are over. My flat was just round the corner from the MBC.
Plien:
I remember being asked what kind of atheist I was at school. My schoolmates couldn't seem to grasp that religion isn't passed in the genes.
@ #8 that would indeed raise a guffaw or two !
I may have told this before but early last year I was unemployed and went to register and the unemployment office in Belfast, they actually had me on their computer files as a protestant and I had to argue with them to remove it. They had no option for atheist, and they couldn't understand why I should be bothered by it.
An imitation of one of the Harp advert's actors would be much better.
This whole thing is starting to feel like watching a slide show of someone's vacation.
Cruithne:
What about completing the Equal Opportunity Monitoring forms when applying for a job? Apparently we are all either:
(a) A member of the Protestant community;
(b) A member of the Catholic community; or
(c) A member of neither the Protestant or Catholic community.
But if you select (c) they then use the 'residuary method' of determining which so-called community you belong to by looking at the schools you attended.
It seems that atheism does not exist in Northern Ireland.
They should have used the photo of PZ taken by the Thames--he looks like a gnome in this picture...
All because you don't want to say, "It's so because God wanted it to be so," you have to do all of this "science" stuff, and come up with "mechanisms" like evo-devo.
The work people will go through to avoid ignorance theism.
PZ, you will be most welcome to our fair city, although word appears to have got out, so it should be a fun time!
They should have used the photo of PZ taken by the Thames--he looks like a gnome in this picture...
The perspective is screwy, too. His hands are bigger than his head - like a cartoon.
Belfast, Friday, 6.oopm. Looking forward to it.
@Blondin--yeah, and having seen him in person I know for a fact that his hands aren't bigger than his head. But the rest of his body parts I know nothing about.
You know, we've been patient up to now. Still, if you aren't doing serious jail time soon, we're going to start wondering what you're really up to there. Blaspheme already!
I hope you have organized an interview with the Belfast Telegraph - it will alarm the fundies no end!
PZ:
eeevo-deeeevo.
Logically, shouldn't it be evvo-deeevo? Don't be captured by the lure of the specious rhyme! ;^)
Personally I say /'i:v@lution/ and /d@'velopment/ (too lazy to do real IPA, sorry).
Cruithne:
I may have told this before but early last year I was unemployed and went to register and the unemployment office in Belfast, they actually had me on their computer files as a protestant...
Wow, it's astoundingly strange to this American that there should even be such a field in your records! Unless you're specifically looking for church-based or clerical work, for FSM's sake, what possible bearing could religious affiliation have with your unemployment benefits? Do Catholics get some portion of their payment in the form of wine and crackers?
BTW, @27 I meant clerical in the funny-collar sense, not in the filing-and-sorting sense. ;^)
Wow, it's astoundingly strange to this American that there should even be such a field in your records! - Bill Dauphin
It would be to do with anti-discrimination legislation. Until quite recently, it would have been routine in NI for a Protestant-owned business, or Protestant-run local council, to refuse to employ Catholics, and vice versa. That's now illegal. Of course "Protestant" and "Catholic" here really refer to community membership - usually obvious from the surname - not individual belief.
what possible bearing could religious affiliation have with your unemployment benefits?
Given our history of institutionalised discrimination on religious grounds, I understand and support the very strict monitoring systems we have in place.
I just wish they didn't have to put everyone into one camp or the other, it perpetuates sectarianism.
Posted by: EvilSooty | February 2, 2010 11:05 AM
Cruithne:
What about completing the Equal Opportunity Monitoring forms when applying for a job? Apparently we are all either:
(a) A member of the Protestant community;
(b) A member of the Catholic community; or
(c) A member of neither the Protestant or Catholic community.
But if you select (c) they then use the 'residuary method' of determining which so-called community you belong to by looking at the schools you attended.
It seems that atheism does not exist in Northern Ireland.
Or any other religions than Catholic Christianity and Protestant Christianity. Does Protestant just mean Presbyterian up there, or does it also include Church of England?
Belfast Evening Event Friday
All Welcome
'Complexity and Creationism' Promoting evolutionary biology to non-specialists
Peter Froggatt centre (Room G06) QUB
6pm Friday 5th Feb 1010
PZ Myers
Professor of Biology, University of Minnesota Morris
American Humanist Association's 'Humanist of the Year 2009'
Science Blog http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/
Opponent of Creationism and Intelligent Design
Is it pronounced eevo-deevo or evvo-devvo?
I think I've heard both.
Is it pronounced eevo-deevo or evvo-devvo?
throatwarblermangrove
(this is the most useful joke ever!)
They should have used the photo of PZ taken by the Thames--he looks like a gnome in this picture...
I was thinking dwarf, but gnome works too.
BS
I'll be there on Friday :D awesome news, can't wait!
Would be great to go for a swall* after, there are some great bars in the university area.
*swall = northern irish slang for a drink
Dang! He's neither a gnome or a dwarf--he's a leprechaun!
O/T: Lancet has "expunged" the 1998 paper on vaccines and autism:
My immediate thought: Not good enough. They can partly correct this by pointing out repeatedly just how wrong the anti-vacc crowd truly is, by name if necessary.
And OT, the Lancet has FINALLY got around to retracting the article published there in 1999 by Andrew Wakefield purporting to show a link between MMR vaccine and autism:
I say "Evolution" with a short e, and "Development" with a long e.
I don't know of anyone who does it any other way.
MikeM, also with the O/T above.
Just to be different, I call it eevo-devvo. So there.
Does Protestant just mean Presbyterian up there, or does it also include Church of England?
Church of England?, you do know this isn't England?
Protestant includes all protestant denominations, with the anglican one being the Church of Ireland>/b>
Actually, for the purposes of monitoring, there's Catholic and there's everything else, no matter what you are you're included in the Protestant block.
KG (@29) and Cruithne (@30):
Just goes to show you what a difference perspective makes: It honestly never occurred to me that a government might collect that data in order to protect you from religious1 discrimination!
1 Which, yes KG, I understand really means community in this context.
FINTAN O'TOOLE The Irish Times - Tuesday, February 2, 2010... The fact is, though, that every single (teacher training) course in Ireland is run by a Christian college, and obliges every single student to both learn and teach Christian doctrine...
Great snort, the Age of Autism is still clinging to this story. Read their reactions.
I am really sorry about this. Education in CA is being gutted.
I don't know anyone who says either evolution or development with a short e, so eevo-deevo.
I have heard tell of a far off land that films come from where they use short e's in evolution, but I had dismissed it as too ridiculous.
Quick O/T, but since it involves sex (which is part of biology) and religious nutters rifling the US Treasury to fund their nuttiness (and as a reward for helping out the Republicans during election years), I wanted to pass this on --
Know that loudly-trumpeted study that (after decades of studies showing the opposite) actually says that abstinence-only sex ed can "work" if taught properly? Well, the problem is that what they recommend for abstinence-only sex ed is not really abstinence-only sex ed. In fact, it is soooo not really abstinence-only sex ed, it wouldn't qualify for Federal funding as such! http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/27815
And OT, the Lancet has FINALLY got around to retracting the article published there in 1999 by Andrew Wakefield
*********
Beside the fact that the data was fraudulent, the study, even if the data were "valid" was junk science. How about exposing the people who reviewed the paper and the editors who accepted it for publication.
IIRC, Wakefield had received ~$750,000 from the lawyers who were involved with the lawsuits. All of these people are pure scum.
PZ: Remember that 3/4 of the population recognize the city of Derry. There is no london in the name, and the reason has nothing to do w/religion.
Guys, I wrote this up last night, my Athiest Hymn.
Plant it in churches if you can. :D
There is no God in existence
No Fascist sky father up there
No mind reading policeman
Or even sky aupaire
They're all praising ignorant fiction
As only the blinded masses can
The evangelical conviction
Is as false as that of the Taliban
They say the book is the inspired word
As only could conceive
But it's man's way of holding us backward
Written to deceive
Written by unscrupulous nationalists
Who thought superior their tribe
For the godless rationalists
Know the Bible is Hebrew Apartheid
Before you cast from you your hand
Build your house on the stone of fact
For building on religious act
Is as foolish as on sand
Wow, I'd never thought before how weird my pronunciations were. I have always said "evvo"-lution (partly so as not to say "evil"-ution, and partly because that's how I usually hear it), and always said "devv-elopment" (which is how I have always heard it. I don't even think saying "dee-volopment" is logically possible, never mind normal).
But I have also always said eeevo-deeevo. I suppose I felt that "evvo-devvo" sounds like I'm mumbling. Also, it's just how each of the word fragments looks like it should be pronounced if it were a word in its own right. Kind of like how "Eva" never looks like it should be pronounced "Evva". (This present is… for evva!)
I'm also reminded of the classic arrays of spelling for the name Devon/Devin/Devan, which I have known as the name of both boys and girl (including one boy who kind of looked like a girl, to other middle-schoolers' confusion…). Devan/in/on…
Devonian!
So I think this is important. Apparently, the Lancet has OFFICIALLY RETRACTED their 1998 autism study that started all the anti-vaccination bullshit. Wanna take bets on whether or not the anti-vax nutjobs just keep on going?
lenoxuss,
I think this is all due to the difference in emphasis between British and American English, we normally emphasise the first and third syllables whereas you do the second and fourth. cf: CARribBEan vs. carRIBeAN.
People, how many dozen times do you need to post the fact that The Lancet has retracted their 1998 failure of peer review?
I don't even think saying "dee-volopment" is logically possible, never mind normal
What about dee-VELL-opment?
That's how I know it…
Whoops, "volopment" was a typo. I actually meant to (jokingly) say that it's not logically possible to say "deeeee-velopment." To me, not using a schwa or similar vowel after the D sounds wrong, wrong, wrong. It's like saying every syllable in "vegetable". But that's just where I live, in central Pennsylvania.
The photo of PZ on the flier? That's a classic "excellent" pose!
A shame... I left Belfast just a week ago. Gad I left, mind you, but I would definitely have attended a talk by PZ.
PZ, thanks - that was a great talk (Belfast 1pm 5/2/10); very well pitched for a general audience. I had a couple more questions that we ran out of time for; I might ask you later, but in the meantime, here they are for the general horde:
1. How much does developmental plasticity affect the ability of an organism to weather changes in its environment in real time? e.g. seasonal effects. Is it conceptually straightforward to suggest that some degree of plasticity might reflect itself as an actual selectable phenotype? Or is such a concept best thought of as homeostatic physiology?
and 2/ if you include a bat-style enhancer in the Prx1 gene of mice, you get longer limbs... what's going to happen if you selectively delete that enhancer in the bats?
It's great to have you in our fair city; we'll go easy on you this evening; it sounds like our Southern pals have sapped all your energy!
This is an embarrassingly stupid, but quite serious, question:
Is it pronounced eevo-deevo or evvo-devvo?
Unfortunately I'll be doing a radio show at 1 on Friday so I'll not be able to make the seminar, but any plans for a meet up later in the day PZ?
eeevo-deeeevo.
I'm also doing a talk in the evening, but we certainly should be doing something fun afterwards.
Fucking hell, a new season of Lost starting on telly AND getting to see Prof Myers, all in the same week?
Oh frabjous day!
Looking forward to it.
We need to have a secret symbol to identify all pharyngulites.
But PZ, are you a catholic atheist or a protestant athiest?
Be sure to blaspheme both sides equally, lest they complain that the other side got an easier PZ. Stupid xtians, same faith, same region, same European Union, but numerous deaths and wounded...
And the most euphemistic euphemism; the troubles.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. I'm working Friday afternoon... please, reschedule the entire thing just so I can come. :)
Crack That Whip!
And don't forget to follow any humourous comments you might make during your talks in Belfast with putting on a Northern Irish accent and shouting "That's a cracker!"
Don't ask. Just do it and hear the roar.
I just finished watching a bunch of Robert Llewellin videos where he picks up "notables" and ferries them around for a video chat. I think you should get him to drag his Prius up to give you a ride between pubs and seminars - he just carpooled with Rebecca Watson - what better follow-up than you?
Yes, I watch Red Dwarf. why do you ask?
JC
I would love to go, but was wondering what time it starts? is it 1800 or 1300? hope it's later!
Damn, shame my student days are over. My flat was just round the corner from the MBC.
Plien:
I remember being asked what kind of atheist I was at school. My schoolmates couldn't seem to grasp that religion isn't passed in the genes.
@ #8 that would indeed raise a guffaw or two !
I may have told this before but early last year I was unemployed and went to register and the unemployment office in Belfast, they actually had me on their computer files as a protestant and I had to argue with them to remove it. They had no option for atheist, and they couldn't understand why I should be bothered by it.
An imitation of one of the Harp advert's actors would be much better.
This whole thing is starting to feel like watching a slide show of someone's vacation.
Cruithne:
What about completing the Equal Opportunity Monitoring forms when applying for a job? Apparently we are all either:
(a) A member of the Protestant community;
(b) A member of the Catholic community; or
(c) A member of neither the Protestant or Catholic community.
But if you select (c) they then use the 'residuary method' of determining which so-called community you belong to by looking at the schools you attended.
It seems that atheism does not exist in Northern Ireland.
They should have used the photo of PZ taken by the Thames--he looks like a gnome in this picture...
All because you don't want to say, "It's so because God wanted it to be so," you have to do all of this "science" stuff, and come up with "mechanisms" like evo-devo.
The work people will go through to avoid ignorance theism.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
PZ, you will be most welcome to our fair city, although word appears to have got out, so it should be a fun time!
The perspective is screwy, too. His hands are bigger than his head - like a cartoon.
Belfast, Friday, 6.oopm. Looking forward to it.
@Blondin--yeah, and having seen him in person I know for a fact that his hands aren't bigger than his head. But the rest of his body parts I know nothing about.
You know, we've been patient up to now. Still, if you aren't doing serious jail time soon, we're going to start wondering what you're really up to there. Blaspheme already!
I hope you have organized an interview with the Belfast Telegraph - it will alarm the fundies no end!
PZ:
Logically, shouldn't it be evvo-deeevo? Don't be captured by the lure of the specious rhyme! ;^)
Personally I say /'i:v@lution/ and /d@'velopment/ (too lazy to do real IPA, sorry).
Cruithne:
Wow, it's astoundingly strange to this American that there should even be such a field in your records! Unless you're specifically looking for church-based or clerical work, for FSM's sake, what possible bearing could religious affiliation have with your unemployment benefits? Do Catholics get some portion of their payment in the form of wine and crackers?
BTW, @27 I meant clerical in the funny-collar sense, not in the filing-and-sorting sense. ;^)
Wow, it's astoundingly strange to this American that there should even be such a field in your records! - Bill Dauphin
It would be to do with anti-discrimination legislation. Until quite recently, it would have been routine in NI for a Protestant-owned business, or Protestant-run local council, to refuse to employ Catholics, and vice versa. That's now illegal. Of course "Protestant" and "Catholic" here really refer to community membership - usually obvious from the surname - not individual belief.
what possible bearing could religious affiliation have with your unemployment benefits?
Given our history of institutionalised discrimination on religious grounds, I understand and support the very strict monitoring systems we have in place.
I just wish they didn't have to put everyone into one camp or the other, it perpetuates sectarianism.
Or any other religions than Catholic Christianity and Protestant Christianity. Does Protestant just mean Presbyterian up there, or does it also include Church of England?
Belfast Evening Event Friday
All Welcome
'Complexity and Creationism' Promoting evolutionary biology to non-specialists
Peter Froggatt centre (Room G06) QUB
6pm Friday 5th Feb 1010
PZ Myers
Professor of Biology, University of Minnesota Morris
American Humanist Association's 'Humanist of the Year 2009'
Science Blog http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/
Opponent of Creationism and Intelligent Design
I think I've heard both.
throatwarblermangrove
(this is the most useful joke ever!)
I was thinking dwarf, but gnome works too.
BS
I'll be there on Friday :D awesome news, can't wait!
Would be great to go for a swall* after, there are some great bars in the university area.
*swall = northern irish slang for a drink
Dang! He's neither a gnome or a dwarf--he's a leprechaun!
O/T: Lancet has "expunged" the 1998 paper on vaccines and autism:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/02/02/lancet.retraction.autism/index.htm…
My immediate thought: Not good enough. They can partly correct this by pointing out repeatedly just how wrong the anti-vacc crowd truly is, by name if necessary.
And OT, the Lancet has FINALLY got around to retracting the article published there in 1999 by Andrew Wakefield purporting to show a link between MMR vaccine and autism:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/feb/02/lancet-retracts-flawed-…
Technically, shouldn't it really be "evvo-deevo"?
I say "Evolution" with a short e, and "Development" with a long e.
I don't know of anyone who does it any other way.
MikeM, also with the O/T above.
Just to be different, I call it eevo-devvo. So there.
Does Protestant just mean Presbyterian up there, or does it also include Church of England?
Church of England?, you do know this isn't England?
Protestant includes all protestant denominations, with the anglican one being the Church of Ireland>/b>
Actually, for the purposes of monitoring, there's Catholic and there's everything else, no matter what you are you're included in the Protestant block.
KG (@29) and Cruithne (@30):
Just goes to show you what a difference perspective makes: It honestly never occurred to me that a government might collect that data in order to protect you from religious1 discrimination!
1 Which, yes KG, I understand really means community in this context.
Why must agnostics be obliged to teach faith?
Great snort, the Age of Autism is still clinging to this story. Read their reactions.
http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/02/the-lancet-retraction.html
This is like Bigfoot, except it's way more harmful. They aren't just dumb, they're also dangerous.
MikeM
One more O/T, and I am really sorry.
Sierra College has to cut three vocational programs, six sports teams and 35 positions, because of an $11.2M budget shortfall.
http://www.sacbee.com/topstories/story/2506185.html
I am really sorry about this. Education in CA is being gutted.
I don't know anyone who says either evolution or development with a short e, so eevo-deevo.
I have heard tell of a far off land that films come from where they use short e's in evolution, but I had dismissed it as too ridiculous.
Quick O/T, but since it involves sex (which is part of biology) and religious nutters rifling the US Treasury to fund their nuttiness (and as a reward for helping out the Republicans during election years), I wanted to pass this on --
Know that loudly-trumpeted study that (after decades of studies showing the opposite) actually says that abstinence-only sex ed can "work" if taught properly? Well, the problem is that what they recommend for abstinence-only sex ed is not really abstinence-only sex ed. In fact, it is soooo not really abstinence-only sex ed, it wouldn't qualify for Federal funding as such! http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/27815
And OT, the Lancet has FINALLY got around to retracting the article published there in 1999 by Andrew Wakefield
*********
Beside the fact that the data was fraudulent, the study, even if the data were "valid" was junk science. How about exposing the people who reviewed the paper and the editors who accepted it for publication.
IIRC, Wakefield had received ~$750,000 from the lawyers who were involved with the lawsuits. All of these people are pure scum.
PZ: Remember that 3/4 of the population recognize the city of Derry. There is no london in the name, and the reason has nothing to do w/religion.
I can't wait to see PZ skewer this reaction:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/the-emlancetem-retraction_b_4…
I won't try. PZ's way funnier than me.
Guys, I wrote this up last night, my Athiest Hymn.
Plant it in churches if you can. :D
There is no God in existence
No Fascist sky father up there
No mind reading policeman
Or even sky aupaire
They're all praising ignorant fiction
As only the blinded masses can
The evangelical conviction
Is as false as that of the Taliban
They say the book is the inspired word
As only could conceive
But it's man's way of holding us backward
Written to deceive
Written by unscrupulous nationalists
Who thought superior their tribe
For the godless rationalists
Know the Bible is Hebrew Apartheid
Before you cast from you your hand
Build your house on the stone of fact
For building on religious act
Is as foolish as on sand
Wow, I'd never thought before how weird my pronunciations were. I have always said "evvo"-lution (partly so as not to say "evil"-ution, and partly because that's how I usually hear it), and always said "devv-elopment" (which is how I have always heard it. I don't even think saying "dee-volopment" is logically possible, never mind normal).
But I have also always said eeevo-deeevo. I suppose I felt that "evvo-devvo" sounds like I'm mumbling. Also, it's just how each of the word fragments looks like it should be pronounced if it were a word in its own right. Kind of like how "Eva" never looks like it should be pronounced "Evva". (This present is… for evva!)
I'm also reminded of the classic arrays of spelling for the name Devon/Devin/Devan, which I have known as the name of both boys and girl (including one boy who kind of looked like a girl, to other middle-schoolers' confusion…). Devan/in/on…
Devonian!
So I think this is important. Apparently, the Lancet has OFFICIALLY RETRACTED their 1998 autism study that started all the anti-vaccination bullshit. Wanna take bets on whether or not the anti-vax nutjobs just keep on going?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gMlEsFpG0M&feature=player_embedded
lenoxuss,
I think this is all due to the difference in emphasis between British and American English, we normally emphasise the first and third syllables whereas you do the second and fourth. cf: CARribBEan vs. carRIBeAN.
People, how many dozen times do you need to post the fact that The Lancet has retracted their 1998 failure of peer review?
What about dee-VELL-opment?
That's how I know it…
Whoops, "volopment" was a typo. I actually meant to (jokingly) say that it's not logically possible to say "deeeee-velopment." To me, not using a schwa or similar vowel after the D sounds wrong, wrong, wrong. It's like saying every syllable in "vegetable". But that's just where I live, in central Pennsylvania.
The photo of PZ on the flier? That's a classic "excellent" pose!
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=excellent&gbv=2&aq=f&…
A shame... I left Belfast just a week ago. Gad I left, mind you, but I would definitely have attended a talk by PZ.
PZ, thanks - that was a great talk (Belfast 1pm 5/2/10); very well pitched for a general audience. I had a couple more questions that we ran out of time for; I might ask you later, but in the meantime, here they are for the general horde:
1. How much does developmental plasticity affect the ability of an organism to weather changes in its environment in real time? e.g. seasonal effects. Is it conceptually straightforward to suggest that some degree of plasticity might reflect itself as an actual selectable phenotype? Or is such a concept best thought of as homeostatic physiology?
and 2/ if you include a bat-style enhancer in the Prx1 gene of mice, you get longer limbs... what's going to happen if you selectively delete that enhancer in the bats?
It's great to have you in our fair city; we'll go easy on you this evening; it sounds like our Southern pals have sapped all your energy!