I think the Irish must be a competitive people — I had mentioned that the students in Galway had kept me out well past midnight with an ever-flowing tap, so here they had to keep me going at a series of pubs and restaurants until the barkeep threw us out at 1:30am. It was a fine end to a grand week in Ireland.
This morning Mark Ravinet gave me a tour of the city and a bit of historical background on The Troubles, and we drove through the Catholic and Protestant neighborhoods that once were festering with active unrest — something we couldn't have done a few years ago, but that are thankfully calm now. We did stop and do a little tagging at a peace line.
I don't take sides in this one. I think everyone has had enough division and it's time for reconciliation.
I've just arrived back in Dublin after another drive through eastern Ireland, and am hanging on the edge of collapse. Good timing, too — I'm flying back home tomorrow.
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It may help the continuing cause of peace in Ireland that the Irish are taking religion less and less seriously.
PZ I very much enjoyed your talk at Queen's University Belfast last night. I have blogged about your nylon eating bacteria example:
http://jeffpeel.net/2010/02/06/observable-evolution/
I'm only 21 so thankfully I never saw the worst of the Troubles. There are still some people who won't let go of old grudges and who stick to their bigotry, but the majority of people here are now working toward peace and that gives me hope.
Well, you kind of do on one issue anyway:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/09/does_the_dup_also_believe_in…
One of the main reasons the DUP's creationist wing haven't got anywhere is that Sinn Fein hold the education portfolio, and Sinn Fein oppose teaching creationism in science classes. Occasionally, when stuck between two sectarian extremes, you have to go with the one that isn't riddled with anti-science fundies.
Given neither side secured a total victory, it should be interesting to see how historians treat the IRA. Traditionally, when the terrorists achieve their goals, like in Israel, Croatia, and Yugoslavia, the "terrorists" become "statesmen" and "national heros." When they lose, the "terrorists" generally remain such, unless of course they're not simply forgotten.
I don't think you'll find anyone in England who thinks of the (Real at least) IRA as anything but terrorists. It wasn't too long ago that they bombed Hammersmith Bridge and launched a rocket propelled grenade at M16 headquarters. That doesn't generally go down too well.
Is that reconciliation between the DUP (we hate Papists, queers, and especially papist queers) and Sinn Féin (we haven't blown anyone up in ages, no really, and we're really sorry about hounding Robert McCarthy's family and promise not to do it again unless they don't learn their lesson)?
Sorry, that should be Robert McCartney in #7.
PZ'c comments about the DUP in his post back in 2007 are absolutely on the nail. For example Edwin Poots is a Minister in the NI Executive and was previously Culture Minister (seriously) and is a Young Earth Creationist. However there is now much more of a focus on secularisation of our political system now that the constitutional deal is done. There is a lot of discussion on my blog about the issue - but if you read many of the comments from the fundies you'll see what a challenge we face.
http://jeffpeel.net
Although I despise 60 Minutes (biased, manipulative, pretense of journalism most of the time) one time they got something right was an "article" on Northern Ireland in which they gave an account of the bombings and murders that took place in one place and time, one in retaliation for the next, and so on, but did not identify any sides. Catholic and Protestant are really not different enough from each other for a person like me to tell without a program. The poor vs. the impoverished? (Caveat: whether or to what extent that same article was biased or had its facts wrong I could not tell given I have only a little knowledge of the history or details of the conflict).
I bought a t-shirt at the last Atheist Alliance Convention. There's a popular slogan among the liberal, ecumenical crowd: "COEXIST," with religious symbols used as letters. The message is, at least in part, a very positive one: the religions need to stop fighting, stop provoking violence, stop arguing with each other over who has the One True God.
But it also implies a hands-off attitude to criticism in general. Religion is a wonderful thing, let's celebrate it in all its forms, etc.
Although the 'COEXIST' t-shirt was for sale at the convention, I bought a different one. It looks, on first glance, like the same one. But it says NOEXIST -- using the religious symbols. It's the same positive anti-violence message, but with a more effective, widespread, and better solution.
Let's all get together, and throw out the untrue crap that will always divide people, because there can be no outside checks on Higher Truths.
I haven't worn it around my small town yet -- too cold for t-shirts so far -- but it will be interesting to see if people catch the difference. And if they say anything, if they do.
Get your ass over to the north england sometime matey! I'll get you a few pints and introduce you to the uni's philosophy society, not a bunch of religious apologists as i had once thought. Also we held a debate between the religious and the society a few days ago, i'll post a link here when it's up :)
In 1974 I was a few hundred yards away when the IRA exploded 2 bombs. They blew up 2 bars in Birmingham, while I was in the Town Hall at a symphony concert. I've always thought "what if ...?"
In 1996, the IRA destroyed 6 floors of offices (where I often visited) of the company I worked for in Manchester. Fortunately no one was hurt that time. (I had to move permanently to another site so that the displaced people could take over where I had been working).
The IRA were terrorists, with a big continuing impact on people who had no connection with, and no influence on, the silly conflict. And they were supported by organizations in the USA!
I think there were several underlying factors that led to the end of the Troubles, and make it unlikely they will restart. One has already been mentioned here: the decline of religion. Although "Catholic" and "Protestant" are tribal labels, the influence of priests and pastors denouncing the religious errors of the other side certainly made things worse. Another I mentioned on an earlier thread: people in NI are much better off than they were forty years ago, when the Troubles started - partly because of general economic growth, but more because a lot of money has been pumped in - so they have more to lose. A third is the measures taken to protect the minority community (Catholics) from discrimination in employment and housing. A fourth is the EU: the border is just less important now the UK and the Republic of Ireland are both members (chalk up another advantage of the EU, Walton!). Finally, although the British authorities used some pretty nasty methods, they didn't make a practice of killing the terrorist leaders. As said leaders became middle-aged married men with children, they were just less keen on spending and risking their lives in the "armed struggle", and more susceptible to the temptations of a share in political and economic power; meanwhile, falling birthrates (due in part to the decline or religion), rising prosperity, and reduced anti-Catholic discrimination reduced the number of potential recruits to the ranks of the IRA and their Protestant counterparts - intelligent young men with limited prospects. This is the basis for my medium-term prescription for dealing with current terrorist groups, including Al Qaeda: wait for them to grow out of it. The falling birth rates in the countries from which Al Qaeda recruits make this feasible. (Short-term: that's a job for police and customs officials - not the armed forces.)
Kick it up a notch, people. This thread isn't explosive enough yet. Though I'm sure by the time I finish typing this, there will be a half dozen increasingly incendiary comments...
great.american.satan
Die Yankee pig-dog!
That explosive enough?
There's an old joke about a tourist sitting in a Belfast bar having a conversation with a local:
Local: "So are you Catholic or Protestant?"
Tourist: "Neither, actually. I'm an atheist."
[pause]
Local: "Yes, but are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist?"
What's the difference between America and Ireland?
In America things are often serious but never hopeless.
In Ireland things are often hopeless but never serious.
Just remember folks, there have always been three sides in out conflict, not two. The British state was always the biggest terrorist of them all.
To see the conflict as nothing more than a sectarian squabble is to fundamentally misunderstand the situation.
Religion has its part to play but empire, and the consequences and legacy of empire play the biggest part of all.
Many years ago I was a bass player in a rock band that toured Ireland.
I was 18 years old naive and English in a country where half that country hated the English and the other half blamed them.
Travelling down the falls road we got a bullet through the roof of our van and out the side panel from an IRA sniper, we had British number plates on.
We were warned not to cross that bridge by an army checkpoint because of that point...we had no choice the gig was on the other side and we were late.
At night we would hear the semtex bombs explode in Belfast.
Some mutual acquaintances died one weekend...a band we knew that happened to play in an bar frequented by Brit squaddies!
Lined up by the side of a country road late at night and shot to death to be thrown in a ditch.
They were friends...as much as touring bands were and are to each other.
I know Ireland...and I know fear...
And I know that fucking religion is the fuel that drives the hatred...and the political ambition.
@19: yes and no. Sectarianism is a huge part of the issue, but for some it is genuinely motivating and all-consuming force, but for others (particularly Britain) it is simply a card to play - Randolph Churchill's infamous "orange card". For centuries it was the official policy of the London government that to every Catholic was a fifth columnist who was actively plotting to overthrow the English monarchy and subjugate England to papal rule. Every Catholic was considered to be by definition a traitor and not deserving of civil rights. Around the same time that Britain's rulers outgrew such thinking, they found it expedient to cultivate it among the settler population of Northern Ireland, where it still flourishes today among Ian Paisley and his followers.
But the situation is not symmetric. The IRA was originally a Marxist organization as much dedicated to overthrowing the Irish government in Dublin as to getting the Brits out, and they certainly weren't interested in spreading papal rule. Popular support for the IRA among N.I.'s indigenous population was miniscule until the Stormont regime brutally crushed the civil rights movement, culminating in Bloody Sunday in 1972. What sectarianism existed among the Catholics was a reaction to Britain's heavy handedness whether acting directly or through its orange proxies.
Yes, but are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist?"
I think the same thing happened to local actor the late Harry Towb, if I remember correctly. I think he was confronted by a secterian gang and upon asking him which religion he was,he replied that he was a Jew. Of course they then asked him if he was a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew !
Anyway, Glad you seem to have enjoyed your day in Belfast. The Geology of this city is one of the most interesting aspects of Norn Iron. Next time you are over you really will have to take a drive up the Antrim coast road and visit the Giant's Causeway, something the YECs have their eye on. Thankfully their campaign appears to have been suppered.
Again, great talk last night at QUB. However, your reference to nylon digesting bacteria as evidence for evolution has been answered by Dr. Georgia Purdom and the rest of the boffins at AiG:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v4/n1/beneficial-mutations…
beneficial mutations of bacteria fit concisely within a creation model where (a) biological systems and functions were fully formed at creation, (b) subsequent mutations can provide conditional benefits that enable the organism to survive harsh conditions even though the mutation is generally degenerative, and (c) most bacteria need the ability to rapidly adapt to ever changing environments and food sources.,/i>
This level of biology is way beyond my understanding. It would look like peer reviewed science to any lay person unfortunately, and this is were the YECs are very, very clever.
By the way, has anyone talked to you about our very own leading geneticist and YEC Professor Norman Nevin ?
Post 20 is full of shit.
Travelling down the falls road we got a bullet through the roof of our van and out the side panel from an IRA sniper, we had British number plates on.
All number plates in Northern Ireland are British, and the IRA didn't have a habit of lying in wait to shoot suspect vans travelling down roads.
Furthermore, if you know the geography of Belfast you'll know there's no major bridge on or near the falls road.
I could point out the rest of the inaccuracies but what's the point, other than to say that whenever some subjects arise, there are always those who think they can bluff their way in the conversation by pretending experience and knoweldge.?
I don't take sides in this one
Naive liberal bienpensance. Any fool can see that the OTHER side is ENTIRELY to blame.
Seriously, though. I watched Ireland win this afternoon. (OK, they won against Italy, so it wasn't exactly a surprise.) The thing I most like about Irish rugby (other than, emm, the rugby part) is that it is an all-Ireland affair. Beyond a bit of awkwardeness about anthems, it is as though neither secession nor partition ever happened.
May everything else on the island be like that before another generation is gone. Will the North still be part of the UK? Will there be a 32-county republic? My earnest hope is that sport set an example here, with the only correct answer to the preceding questions being who cares, we kick off at half three".
@23: British license plates are different than NI ones, there is an extra letter.
Northern Ireland is British. Do you mean English license plates?
Apropos of nothing, I just realised that Mrs Tilton has a lovely alias in her typekey profile: Mr Stilton.
Yummy.
With British licence plates the rear plate is yellow. Irish licence plates have front and rear the same colour.
Cruithne @23,
Post 20 is full of shit... the IRA didn't have a habit of lying in wait to shoot suspect vans travelling down roads
Well, maybe only partly full of shit.
My friendly advice to you, a Chruithne a mhic, is that people who try to whitewash the murderous filth that are the Ra will find themselves pwned by the facts. I offer the identical friendly advice to anybody inclined to whitewash the murderous filth that are the loyalist paramilitaries.
(NB: post 20 might well still be full of shit; that's not the bit of Cruithne's post that annoyed me.)
Sili @27,
curses, I am discovered.
Again, and I can't stress this enough, Northern Ireland is British, Northern Ireland driving plates are British driving plates.
How many times do I have to say it, what is it here that people aren't getting?
Perhaps this page, with handy photographs of the plates can better explain?
(note the photo of the Northern Ireland rear plate which is yellow)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of_the_United_…
My friendly advice to you, a Chruithne a mhic, is that people who try to whitewash the murderous filth that are the Ra will find themselves pwned by the facts. I offer the identical friendly advice to anybody inclined to whitewash the murderous filth that are the loyalist paramilitaries.
Your friendly advice is noted but I'd offer you some friendly advice in return, please don't construct strawmen arguments.
I am an atheist and a humanist, I support no violent organisations and never have. Nothing I have said could in any way be seen as whitewashing or excusing any group, and I am bemused as to why you'd think I have. I hold them all in equal contempt, and that includes the efforts of the British establishment.
Cruithne @31,
I can't speak for aynbody else in this thread, but the only part of your post I objected to was the part about the IRA not ambushing and killing people in vans.
As for the poster @20, I know of only one band shot at the side of the road late at night. They were not shot by anti-British forces.
Sorry Mrs Tilton, I've just checked out the link you provided and I think I better understand your post.
Yes that was and absolutely inexcusable, unjustifiable sectarian attack but it was carefully planned with the victims known beforehand, I was pointing out that the IRA didn't use the tactics of opportunist random attacks. this was in no way meant to suggest support or even, monkey forbid, admiration. I was simply trying to paint a more accurate picture
Cruithne @34,
understood, and I'm glad I was wrong about you.
BTW, though, the victims at Kingsmill weren't known beforehand. Their religion was known, and that was enough.
Maybe it was carefully planned. Couldn't say. I do wish the ra had planned more of their hits as carefully, though. So many of them did end, after all, with the republican leadership having to express "regrets" after (say) a pair of small boys were blown to shreds in Cheshire, or the denizens of a Co Londonderry village burnt to death by car bombs (the victims of the latter attack being, at least, an admirably oecumenical 50-50 taig-jaffa split, so we can't fairly accuse the ra of being sectarian on that one, can we).
OMFG! I bet you're glad to be home, PZ (if, that is, the powers that be South of the border haven't arrested you for blasphemy). I blame it on the Guiness - just too strong for effete modern youth.
Sorry boys, but this does have to be said - Northern Ireland is NOT British, it is NOT a part of the the United Kingdom. It is attached to the Crown in a distinct constitutional arrangement.
A large proportion of the people consider themselves British, but they are not - they are Irish living in a province attached to Britain, and sucking tax revenue from Britain. This is why we have on our passports " United Kingdom of Great britain AND Northern Ireland"
Norn Iron may not be British, not being on the Island of Great Britain, but it certainly is part of the United Kingdom. You even show it: "United Kingdom of Great britain AND Northern Ireland"
Yes, PZ, do tell -- how many times have you violated the blasphemy law?
coemgenuss Very kind of you to tell me that I'm not the nationaity I thought I was, or that indeed my country isn't the country I thought it was.
How silly of me to think I should rely on such things as simple facts and international law when all I had to do was log on to the internet and be informed.
I guess you need to go and tell all the people in both parts of Ireland, as well as the two governments who held referendums and ratified international treaties stating it was and is British, until such time as a majority decide other wise.
What do we all know though, eh?
Me either, and Stan Rogers (before the current quiet) said why not very, very well:
All rights and all wrongs have long since blown away,
For causes are ashes where children lie slain.
Yet the damned U.D.L and the cruel I.R.A.
Will tomorrow go murdering again.
The entire song.
A bit of history:
Pre-1542: England conquered Ireland in the 12th Century.
1542: England and Wales formally united in the Acts of Union of 1536 and 1542.
1707: Scotland, England & Wales formally united in the Act of Union of 1707, under central government covering all of Great Britain.
1801: Great Britain and Ireland formally united under central government in the 1800 Act of Union.
1921: Most of Ireland became independent, leaving the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Post-1997: Some powers have been devolved to Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland.
Screechy Monkey @17, I have had that exact conversation with an Irish guy I was studying with in France. It was bizarre, especially since where I grew up you were pretty much assumed to be non-religious unless stated otherwise.
The band that spoke most eloquently for me about the troubles was Stiff Little Fingers:
From the minute that you're born you're told
To hate the other side
"They're not like us, they're not the same
We know because we're right"
But can't you see we're all the same
There is no right and wrong
Why can't we stop and realize
Just what we're doing wrong
We've hated too much too long
Each old lie a bullet
Each victim someone's son
And Irishmen kill Irishmen
As surely
As if they fired the gun
From "Each Dollar A Bullet", lyrics here: http://www.plyrics.com/lyrics/stifflittlefingers/eachdollarabullet.html
Peter Henderson Author Profile Page | February 6, 2010 5:58 PM:
AIG's argument is like arguing that you can walk 100 feet because God knew you'd need to walk to your car, but you can't walk 100 miles because God knows you don't need to.
There's plenty of evidence that small changes can add up to large changes; the fossil record is rife with such evidence. This is covered (to one extent or another) in most of the recent books about evolution. I'll just mention Don Prothero's Evolution: What the Fossils Say And Why It Matters.
Norbury @45, re SLF:
oh aye!
They make us feel indebted
For saving us from hell
And then they put us through it
It's time the bastards fell
Can I get an amen?
PZ- if you are tired of division, you kinda are taking a side.
To other posters: NI is *not* British: NI is part of the UK (United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland); it's an important distinction.
Folks, feck off with the Irish British thing, will ya? PZ, it was a pleasure and an honour having you over; I hope our late night shenanigans didn't exhaust you too much, and your talks were excellent. When you come back, we will show you a fine example of specified complexity in the Giant's causeway, which you could add to your slide of the driftwood sea wall...
To other posters: NI is *not* British: NI is part of the UK (United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland); it's an important distinction.
There is no distinction, they're one and the same thing.
The pro union majority from Northern Ireland don't have a different nationality from the rest of the UK, do they?
Their passports say the same thing and international law recognises them as the same so where is this distinction realised?
It doesn't exist, except in some people's minds.
To people who say I'm Irish, not British, I saw well then are you English/Scots/Welsh, not British?
Being Irish is part of my identity but so is being British, they're not necessarily mutually exclusive.
Anyone who feels confident enough to deny another person their identity and nationality needs to sit down and have a long hard talk with themselves because there's a word for that type of thing.
NI *is* British, by conventional use of the term! Try Wikipedia, etc.
NI is part of the "British Isles", which includes Great Britain (England, Scotland, and Wales) and Ireland (the whole lot). Needless to say, the term "British Isles" is controversial, even when used geographically not politically. It doesn't go down well in the Republic of Ireland! It is best avoided where possible.
A UK passport says "British Citizen" inside. I believe that applies to those issued in NI too. "British" is commonly used simply for "pertaining to the UK"; not just for "pertaining to Great Britain".
Barry Pearson@43,
You're simplifying the earlier events a good bit! The 12th century conquest was incomplete, and by 1483, England only held a small area around Dublin: "The Pale". Ireland was repeatedly "subdued" under the Tudors and Stuarts (and Cromwell), but effective English (or by then, British) control was not imposed until the 18th century.
Northern Ireland is NOT British, it is NOT a part of the the United Kingdom. It is attached to the Crown in a distinct constitutional arrangement. - coemgenuss
The first clause of this is arguable (see the arguments above), the rest is just wrong.
Oh, but that was before GWB and Sarah Palin entered the scene. Pretty hopeless that either even are in the public light.
And as to IRA, the only single time they could for a change have done something good with their bombs they fucked it up good and proper. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brighton_hotel_bombing
I'd just like to thank PZ for the lecture on Friday night, it was great to get a chance to hear him express his arguments in person. ( Unfortunately I missed the earlier lecture but some of us students actually do go to our own lectures on occasion :) )
I'm lucky that I am too young to remember of have experienced the worst of the Troubles, but my family , like all those in Belfast was deeply affected by the violence and fear of those times. I know I speak for many of my age group when I say this:
I don't care what anyone else thinks we should be called, I don't care if I am considered Britsh, Irish or Northern Irish. All I care about is protecting my family and our lives, anyone who hopes to re-start any of the past conflicts so that they can proclaim that this land 'belongs' to one side or the other is deeply selfish and should be resisted by any rational human being with a semblance of conscience.
Things are improving here all the time, but there are those who would hurt innocent people 'for the cause' (and by proxy boost their own sense of self worth). Our generation is the first in a long time to have the chance at a 'normal' life in Belfast, for me and most of the people I know religion is a non-factor, only the old, poisonous bigots (I'm sure most people could name a few) are intent on spreading hatred. I know that some of the recent attacks are intended as rallying calls, but things have changed, we have more to lose this time around and I think that more violence will only be met by disgust and revulsion on both sides, there is no place for politically or religiously motivated violence in the modern world.
Personally (and I'm not giving my cultural identity here) I think it's time for the Welsh, Scots and Irish (of all stripes) to reclaim the word "British". By identifying it with the English they make the same mistake as others do when they use English to mean British. I once had a Scot tell me he wasn't British, and I know people who say they're English not British. It all gets far too complicated and political for me, as a peace loving citizen of the British Isles. Anyway, it's certainly a question you can't resolve with facts, because people's identities aren't purely factual, they're also emotional and political and cultural.
Oh, and Mrs Tilton: Amen! Music sometimes does mean something doesn't it?
This whole argument about what is "British" can be dependent on circumstance. It is, of course, all down to us English. We're always British. People from the other parts of the UK are British only when we want to be associated with them. For instance, Andy Murray, the well known Scottish tennis player, has never won a major title. It seems likely that that will change, and when it does, he'll be Andy Murray, the well known British tennis player.
The whole British thing is another one of those incidents where the common usage and the technical usage vary (like the use of the word "theory").
With respect to the taking of sides, I have to confess that I'm on the side which doesn't have nutters shooting people and planting bombs. Could someone remind me which one that is again?
#58, yeah we've all noticed that particular situation.
Joking aside, Northern Ireland's peace agreement does provide a rather novel and ingenious solution to a problem that faces many divided societies.
I have been forthright in insisting I am British in this discussion but I was also careful to specify that being British in Northern Ireland only applies to the pro union community.
How can this be so? Surely everyone in a specific territory is a particular nationality by default?
Well no, not really.
What we have done in Northern Ireland is changed the rules whereby nationality was once determined by territory, this is not the case. Whilst I identify as British and my allegiance is to the UK state, my neighbour (and as it happens, I do mean my literal neighbour) is Irish only and offers his allegiance to the Irish republic.
Our peace agreement is constructed so that both governments have to recognise and accommodate this difference.
It also helps if everyone else would also recognise and accommodate this difference.
In Northern Ireland you can be British, Irish, both, or none, the choice is yours, not the state's.
I grew up through the troubles and if I learned anything, it's not what you believe that's important, it's how you treat others who believe differently.