It's good to know that in the ecosystem of inanity, we have village idiots, like Ken Ham, and itinerant idiots, like Sean Meek. Meek has created something called The Traveling Creation Museum as part of his life's work of making people stupider.
The Traveling Creation Museum is available to come to your location. It has exhibits on the days of Creation, the Flood, the Ice Age, dinosaurs and much more. It shows how the real scientific and historical information supports the Genesis account of Creation.The Museum includes many authentic antiquities from the ancient world and reveals in a dramatic and visual manner the grandeur of God's creation.
That's all the detail I've been able to find on this thing. There doesn't seem to be a formal schedule for it, I haven't found any photographs, I'm a little disappointed. I suspect that what it actually is is that if you give him a call, a creepy Christian guy in a safari suit will show up in his van (or maybe, if I indulge in a flight of grandiose fantasy, it's something as elegant as a Winnebago) and hector kids about how the Bible is completely and literally true in every word. He's one of those guys, the ones who insist that the Bible must be accepted as the ultimate authority on everything, which means that the Earth must be 6000 years old, something the Bible doesn't say.
Attempting to compromise the Bible is like pulling a thread on a cheap sweater; it all begins to unravel. Suddenly all the verses that speak of God's mercy and forgiveness begin to look self-serving and manipulative. All of the Bible would be built on lies and deception. As important as the question of Creation is, it is not the central question. The central is, and always has been, is the Bible really God's Word?
No.
Wow, that was easy.
Anyway, if anyone wants to check this thing out, we do have a confirmed destination: it will be in Gastonia, NC, in the First Wesleyan Church, across the street from the Dairy Queen. That's good news — it's not like someone would have to travel to this obscure little place to see a craptacular display of a god-wallopers ignorance, you could also get yourself an ice cream cone.
Proud Canadians have written in to tell me that they beat us: they have their own ignorant ass with plans for a traveling museum.
OK, OK, you beat us at hockey. Do you have to get so danged competitive about everything now?
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They're getting their crap together and taking it on the road -- more literally than is usually the case.
I can hardly wait.
Well, he is right. The Big Book of Bogeys is a pretty cheap sweater at that.
Sean Meek said it himself: the Bible is like a cheap sweater that will unravel with the slightest tug.
Please don't call Sean Meek a "gypsy." Gypsies have had enough tragedies heaped on them in the last 150 years as is.
Wow. Talk about handing it to the other side on a silver platter!
It sucks that the city he's visiting shares the same name as a dinosaur.
As a museum conservator, I will stake my career and my reputation that the toys he brings out for show are not "authentic antiquities."
Why the insult to gypsies? Meek sounds more like a carny creationist to me - though again, that might be an insult to carnies.
I will say that that quote from Meek is interesting, and it speaks to something that I've noticed. Both fundamentalists and atheists seem to agree that if the Bible cannot be read literally then the Bible is false. I suspect that this might be why liberal believers like to trot out the "fundamentalist atheist" canard when they want to refute (or more truthfully, ignore) someone like Dawkins - they recognize how the Bible is being invoked from their own battles with fundamentalists and so they label it "fundamentalist".
Gastonia huh. Just south of Charlotte not too far from me. Unfortunately it's a Wed / Thurs.
I wonder if they'll come down to the Charleston area.
Whew, thankfully they invited both the public and homeschoolers.
I assume the gypsy bit was in reference to the image of a traveling caravan that the idea of a "mobile creation museum" conjures up.
Although, honestly, after the headline I was hoping for literal Gypsy Creationists. What kind of indigenous gods does Romania have? Not that it matters, since the gypsies aren't from there originally... man, all that traveling must give a ton of material for syncreticism.
humm
This is, um, interesting.
I think that's the first time I've heard that.
This guy came to my kids School a few years ago. His "museum" is in his house. It is in a town with about 100 people and is a long dog sled ride from anywhere else for most of the year. He spends most of his time travaling around the US getting $100 - $1000 per day to stop in local churches and church schools. This guy is NUTS.
So it appears he has made enough money to up the game. This is very sad.
Phil Ferguson
www.skepticmoney.com
At the risk you might see me a fink,
Let me tell you, it's not what you think!
You label him "Gypsy"
But here, take a tip: see,
It isn't a Roma, it's stink.
If you've ever been anywhere in Europe you'll know why Gypsies are despised. For whatever reasons, their culture has become one of thievery and parasitism. I don't know whether anti-Gypsy attitudes preceded this behavior or resulted from it; either way it's a sad situation.
By the way, Meeks has an 800 number and it costs him whenever anyone calls it...(but your number is known if you do).
Sadly, I expect that he has enough money to afford more than just a Winnebago: the creationists always do seem to have a source of funding.
Reading some of the material on that site is truly frightening, but I had to laugh at the page about the human foot. It seems we've moved beyond the eye as the most favoured example of irreducible complexity, and now it's the turn of the foot. I sure didn’t see that one coming.
Some of these people seem like they've come to the same conclusions about the Bible we have, but they got frightened and fled from their conclusions.
If you've ever been anywhere in Europe you'll know why Gypsies are despised. For whatever reasons, their culture has become one of thievery and parasitism. I don't know whether anti-Gypsy attitudes preceded this behavior or resulted from it; either way it's a sad situation.
You'd think they would receive more sympathy after losing their homeworld to the geth.
"Attempting to compromise the Bible is like pulling a thread on a cheap sweater; it all begins to unravel. Suddenly all the verses that speak of God's mercy and forgiveness begin to look self-serving and manipulative. All of the Bible would be built on lies and deception."
That's a great quote! I'm going to use it!
I think Ian Juby's plan looks very feasible and well thought-out. A traveling creation show to fleece and reinforce the stupid of those who have been pre-lobotomized by their local churches and homeschooling. It doesn't hurt that he's targeting communitities where there's little else to do.
How depressing.
Never mind that we've got the crater, glass spherules, a splinter from the asteroid, tsunami deposits, shocked quartz yadda yadda yadda…
It is always reported that some volcanoes also eject comparatively large amounts of iridium; for a long time, many geologists were skeptical of the impact hypothesis and tried to advance a volcanic explanation. However:
Whatever. Adding one more miracle to that story really shouldn't matter.
See above.
The main episode of eruption between India and the Seychelles (forming today's Deccan Traps) ended 100,000 years before the Cretaceous did.
One Rom, two Roma. That's masculine. The feminine singular is Romni; I forgot the plural…
In much of Europe there aren't any left, if you know what I mean, so people lack firsthand experience.
<sigh>
How much of a nerd am I if I admit I got that?
True, but then one loses the "aroma" pun, which was the point of the phrase. I plead poetic license.
The Canadian "museum" spurned two national polls?
Go fuck off and read Michael Stewart's The Time of the Gypsies.
Wow.
How much of a nerd am I if I admit I got that?
One who is officially added to my ever-growing roster of Cool People on the Internet.
About a 5 out of 10 on the Pharyngula-Nerd Scale. For a higher score you would have had to append your pet theory about the Reapers.
sweet. Just finished it the other day.
Whew
Well, much as the 'cheap sweater' analogy is actually hilariously à propos (no... you don't say... it all comes apart? Shocked, I am...), it does strike me as slightly off in one sense:
That sense being: you couldn't normally actually buy a sweater made that badly...
I mean, if we're talking about the bible, it's more like you go into the store, rub a moist towelette all over your torso, then dive into this big bin of randomly assembled, scratchy yarn fragments. Some of 'em stick to you, 'n there's yer sweater, pal... And we'll take a tenth of your income in pepetuity for that, thanks...
He's got a point. Can we give the US* this one, guys?
Please? No, really, we don't even need to enter these events so much, thanks... It's all nice we rock at winter sports, sure, but let's just pass on the 'Own the Whackjob Podium' program, could we? Pretty please, even?
*Or, hey, whoever wants it... And speaking of, does Ham still wear Australia's gear in these? Or is there gonna be a fight over that...
(/'No no no... you take 'em... We're good...')
I must be seriously uncool as I have no idea what you on about.
So, if I attend (across from the DQ), where do I go to get some actual ice cream?
it "spurned" not one, but two national polls? the angus reid poll asked the "pollsters"?
canada is a predominantly rural country? he says that twice. one supposes if he's talking about area, he's dead on, if he's talking about population, 80% of canadians are urban! 80%!
http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/as-sa/97-550/p11-eng.cfm
never let facts get in the way of a snowjob, eh?
Wasn't there a chap with a "museum" that was just a trailer, with "fossils" of something like man/dino "footprints"? Maybe he's bought something to pull it about with.
OK, this is one of those cases where I have to *gasp* agree with Greg Laden. (Well, with something Greg says but is inconsistent about.)
It doesn't matter how you meant it, you shouldn't compare the these idjits to Gypsies, especially on a blog with an international readership, and especially if you're calling the people you compare to Gypsies dishonest.
I'm sure PZ didn't mean to slam "Gypsies" (Roma) and that most Americans wouldn't take it that way, but anti-"Gypsy" sentiment in Europe is different, AFAIK.
It would be understandable if Europeans took the "Gypsy" thing itself as an ethnic epithet, connected to the dishonesty under discussion, rather than just a description of a nomadic group of people that also happen to be dishonest.
Note to Europeans: in the U.S., "gypsy" is often used to mean any kind of nomad, often positively romanticized. It's mostly lost its connection to the actual Roma, except as a quaint caricature of a bygone phenomenon. (Which is kind of demeaning and insulting in itself, since the Roma are living, breathing people, but not nearly as bad as using the term as an insult.)
Please don't use the word "gypsy" to describe people, as it is a racial slur against the Roma people. The words "gyp" and "gypped" should be avoided similarly, because they are derivative from it. (If you wouldn't say that somebody "jewed" you out of money, you shouldn't say that they "gypped" you out of money either.)
As an American who has a passing knowledge of the Anti-Gypsy sentiment in Europe I completely took the comparison to Gypsies only in the "nomadic" sense and nothing to do with any other stereotype, negative or not.
It's funny how the literalists occasionally say really insightful things...
We in southwest MO/Arkansas/SW OK have our own wandering whackaloons called Creation Truth Ministries.
(creationtruth.com)
They've been my arch enemy since junior high (that story is on Austin Cline's blog: http://atheism.about.com/b/2006/07/05/countering-creationists-in-public… )
Anyway, it looks like after a long leave of absence, they're returning to my hometown March 14. This time, though, I'm bringing my freethought group. Fun is to be had!
Seems to me that maybe us scientists need to copyright all our data. This traveling museum accepts much of modern science - DNA struck me - but without really understanding it. For example, claiming that most of the dinosaur bones are IN the iridium layer?
And, is THIS the thread to pull on the sweater? Where are the dinosaurs of today? Supposedly all 'kinds' were taken, two by two, onto the ark, yet the dinos didn't evidently make it? Ahhh, maybe they evolved into birds? No, wait a minute, now I'm all confused.
Or this - that according to the bible, the ONLY human survivors were Noah, his sons, and their wives. But there must have been other boats around, that could have withstood such waters, and their occupants survive, no? And, in the NT, there are two tracings of the lineage of Jesus back to Adam, and they are different. Only one goes through Noah, but they must, if he and sons were the only male flood survivors.
One of the pieces of evidence often cited FOR the flood is that every civilization has a flood story (though the Hopi of Arizona do not), but that means there must have been survivors of the flood for all those civilizations, as well.
PZ: I think the term you're looking for is "vagrant creationists" - the roma have it though enough without getting associated with creatures like this one...
And "Gypsy" is kinda like "negro" - not directly derogativly, but usually not seen as nice by all... It's a term best avoided.
"Attempting to compromise the Bible is like pulling a thread on a cheap sweater; it all begins to unravel. "
The Bible as a cheap sweater! That's one of the best analogies I've heard. Damn! I wish I'd have thought of it. But they got it wrong. It's not a cheap sweater. It's really just a loose knotted and tangled ball of homespun that's regularly and poorly is made into whatever its reader needs.
Do anyone know about the creationism museum in the small town of Glendive, Montana? Right here http://www.creationtruth.org/
This is very close to me and I didn't even know it existed until a few months ago. Has anyone been there? I may have to stop by and have a look. I'll have to make sure I get my shots first.
Blessed Atheist Bible Study @ http://blessedatheist.com/
Seems to me that maybe us scientists need to copyright all our data.
Oh dear Grod, no. A thousand times no.
Science relies on open exchange of ideas that would be completely destroyed if anyone were given the authority to say "you're not allowed to read the data that way". How many different petty arguments have there been over the centuries between scientists who believed that their data meant one thing and other scientists who believed that the same data meant something entirely different? Those petty arguments eventually get settled though good science, but if the first group was allowed to just say "shut up - you are NOT ALLOWED TO interpret my findings that way" the entire process of scientific discovery would be shut down.
There is a problem that the open model allows for parasitic pseudo-science to latch on and use the data to make claims for things that aren't supported. It's a problem, but it's a problem because it's exploiting something that is fundamental to the process of scientific inquiry. The best that scientists can do is to publicly and loudly correct these objectionable claims when they are made and keep doing good science.
(Pseudoscience advocates also have a tendency to claim not only that a particular body of work supports their nonsense, but they will also quotemine authorities to make it seem like those authorities also support their nonsense. That's a different problem - when that happens the person being quotemined needs to set the record straight and, if it's egregious enough, sue the bastards for libel and/or defamation of character.)
Looks like you were right about the safari suit: http://www.projectcreation.org/program_descriptions.php
Errm, yes. I use "gypsy" in the entirely romantic sense of a wanderer, with no pejorative stigma attached. If I'd called them "traveling" shows, would some Irish people pop up and explain that Travelers has a pejorative sense? It's the same here.
Aaaarrrrghhh.
Kids, just because a guy's wearing a khaki fishing vest with a matching shirt doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about.
/slowly takes off khaki vest and shoves it under the table
Oh dear sweet Jesus (pardon the pun).
What the hell is becoming of my beautiful country? Our national anthem AND our Charter have religious references and now we have tenth-rate creationists who - more than converting or convincing people into being creationists through the PC media - are causing people to, in a very short period of time, become utterly confused.
This is not cool at all. It's sewing the seeds of confusion so that when people can't take it anymore, they either: a) join up with scientists/atheists for the wrong reasons (anything that would not involve oneself finding out the information for him/herself); or b) go with the most parsimonious of the two. Unfortunately, this is the one case where Occam's Razor fails us...
Fortunately, two years later, the majority (not by much) of Canadians are still smart and not falling for this nonsense.
How does this sound as a counterattack? We get an organized tour of several fellowships: a) scientists going across the country showing why ID and creationism are lies; b) a bunch of Christians going around proclaiming the word of Darwin - since most major religions accept evolution as fact and its largely a bunch of Protestant fools who undermine science, it might be best to go with the Catholics (since Canada is a largely Catholic country); and c) get a bunch of religious people who are NOT Abrahamic to proclaim their creation story and that the Judeo-Christian one is full of shit.
Of course, in the long term the goal is to have science and reason prevail, but in the short term it'd be funny to see a bunch of Bible-Thumpers getting owned by Buddhists.
From their site:
OK, OK, you beat us at hockey. Do you have to get so danged competitive about everything now?
Is there really a winner when its a race to the bottom?
But we Canadians have been playing this game for a while. We've got a "creation museum" (AKA trailer house of crap) which is conveniently located a few blocks away from one of the best palaeontology museums in the world (Royal Tyrell).
I always thought that would be the best anti-creationist field trip possible. Take the kids to the Tyrell, then to the creationist "museum", and afterwards ask them "now, who do you think is right".
Creationists always showcase dinosaurs and not any other ancient organism. That's because dinosaurs were on Jurassic Park. The inanity of it all is amazing to me.
Being British, I've certainly come across the attitude that Gypsies are universally thieves - an attitude not helped by the rabid right-wing press -but the general attitude is not reality.
Doesn't say much for how confident they are about their magic book.
But they have 10% of a point. The bible is more like soggy tissue paper. All you have to do is read it and it all falls apart.
It is important to note that in the US usage, Gypsy doesn't mean anything pejorative. However, given that it is used that way in a large swath of the world, it's another one best avoided so as at the least not to cause confusion over the meaning intended, once one realizes that such differences in meaning exist.
I dunno, Valdyr. I think the Quarians asked for it when they first freaked out over the Geth awakening, and then subsequently refused to even try to make peace with them. I still think Admiral Koris is a nut, but especially given the context of Legion I think he's still basically right.
(to the uninitiated, "Mass Effect 1 and 2." If you consider yourself any sort of gamer with respect for storytelling, RUN to the store to buy both. See you in a few weeks.)
I'm astounded by the "cheap sweater" analogy too. Reminds me of Coulton's "Pull the String." Stuck on smartphone or I'd link it, but a quick YouTube search should turn up the song.
"Call your lawyer, deny the rumors...but some lies are true. (...) Pull the string...and this whole thing's comin' down..."
I'm watching you, Rev. o.O
PZ: Speaking for my self, I understand what you meant - it's just that the situation for the roma in Europe is pretty darn bad atm, and because of that I think some special concideration is due.
Sentiments like the one at #14 isn't as rare as they ought to be, and the roma is marginalized in many other ways.
One recent example:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4080048.stm
HA! We Canadians whooped your Donkeys in 1812. One of the things we did was burn down this one blue coloured building. You Americans rebuilt it and painted it a different hue - now you have the White house :)
Anyway, we can do anything as well as Americans, including deluding our fellow citizens.
As I never tire of reminding people, "Winnebago" is a Soixian word meaning "stinking water".
BS
But only because of Quebec, where the Catholicism is lukewarm at best. In almost all of the rest of the country, Catholicism is a minority.
Wow, finally some props for my own peculiar (former) brand of fundamentalism. Yay, I guess.
My dad pastored Wesleyan churches until I graduated from High School (and my mom left him, but that's another story.)
Color me completely unsurprised that a Wesleyan Church is hosting this idiot...
@#9 RevBigDumbChump:
It's an interesting distinction, don't you think? Does the homeschoolers' mentality seaparate them from the public?
I guess. At least in the eyes of the Gaston Gazette it does.
I too, would like to cut out the anti-Roma sentiment in here. Send "hznfrst" to the dungeon!
Oh. That was easier than I thought.
Pull the (BibleSweater) String:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v52ib8IqLFo&feature=youtube_gdata
Wow. Is there anything that darned flood didn't do? Forget ol' dino bones, the real money is helping fallen Christians erect that cross:
"That's right; step on up! Now, be honest with me, good Christian gentleman: which of you here hasn't felt like your marital bed of late seems less like forty days and nights of stormin' and more like a droopy ol' rainbow? Well, then, who's gonna be the first to feel romance flooding back into the bedroom, washing away the sins of impotence? Noah may have filled the ark two by two, but you'll only need one dose of Honest Abe's genuine, sublime, put-you-back-in-your-prime Genesis Flood Restorative™ to help your little dove find that mighty olive branch again!"
"... a creepy Christian guy in a safari suit will show up in his van (or maybe, if I indulge in a flight of grandiose fantasy, it's something as elegant as a Winnebago)... "
Well, they do seem to be available for parties or whatever. Maybe it's a clown car.
It'd be interesting to see how many steaming piles of crap they can pull out of that one little bug.
Oh my shit, GASTONIA? THIS WEEK? I will try to go and take pictures. No promises, as I'll have to borrow a working camera.
Moving goalposts, moving museums.
It just fits, somehow, in a demented creationist sort of way.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
A creation museum at Big Valley! On two occasions, I found myself in Big Valley after driving aimlessly down country roads (and not-so-roads). I'd be horribly embarrassed by the existence of the museum in my province, but there's other things that are far worse to be embarrassed about.
I suspect his grasp of science is on par with his grasp of language:
from the video: "... it SPURNED not one, but two national polls...", "...in which Angus Reid asked the POLLSTERS...".
from his web site: Wahoo! First shipping container is purchased, and a down-payment on the second one has already been made (identical to this one). ... It's a 40' high cube.
That's one tall shipping container!
He is from Chalk River, Ontario. Maybe he has a night job cleaning out the core of the nuclear reactor there.
Psi, & other Greek letters.
Wow this guy is an idiot. Canada's population is not primarily rural. Furthermore I doubt if his statistics are correct or that these creation museums have any effect whatsoever. I'd never even heard of their existence nor has anyone I asked.
I gotta quit getting sidetracked between starting to compose a comment & actually posting it. Once again I've repeated things others have already mentioned. I'll find myself spurned if I keep it up. Apologies!
Uh, no, after the non-avian dinosaurs were buried. Indeed, the layer apparently prevented dinosaurs from ever getting up to the Tertiary boundary (ok, with the possibility of a few getting a couple hundred thousand years past it).
This was a flood unlike all others, a flood in which the kinds of sorting found in non-flood sediments did occur--as well as sorting never seen from any other event whatsoever.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
Flooddidit.
Coraxyn,
And we did it again yesterday. The thing is, i recorded the game (it was on in the evening over here in the UK) so as i could watch it today. Can you believe it, the goddam BBC reported the result. They hardly even know what hockey is over here, & they had to spoil it for me. Almost.
I have been to the Big Valley creation science museum. Foolishly, I actually tried to start up a conversation about their stalagmite exhibit and explain why it doesn't make sense. Once he realized I was one of those "evil-utionists", he quickly turned up his nose (literally), and ignored me.
Reminds me of the image of the ear plugs and eye cover with the caption "creationist science kit. Blocks 90% of all known science".
PZ:
I'm sure you didn't mean Gypsy negatively, and that most North Americans wouldn't take it that way.
Still, it's very different from talking about "traveling shows." Clearly many people immediately connected it up with "Gypsies," if only to wonder.
When I saw the headline, I wondered if you mean that actual Roma were going around with their own bizarre version of Creationism. That'd be appalling, but novel and interesting. I was a little disappointed that it was just about a traveling creationist gimmick.
I think far fewer people would connect it up with Travelers if you talked about a "traveling show." (Even in Europe.) Almost everybody would assume you were just talking about a traveling show, not Travelers. (Especially in North America, even among Eddie Izzard fans like me, who are probably overrepresented here.)
Creationists are always doing something stupid. A real "creationist science kit" would also include a tinfoil hat.
WCorvi in #38:
Apart from whether such a policy would be desirable, it is not possible under US law. Mere data are not subject to copyright, even if they were expensive to compile.
See the Feist case.
Feist, a publisher of telephone directories, had copied about 4000 directory listings from the directory published by Rural Telephone Service Company, a local telephone company in rural Kansas. Rural sued for infringement of copyright, and lost.
In order to be protectable by copyright, material must contain some minimal amount of expressive content or originality. The choice of what information to include and exclude may count as expressive content, but not the raw information itself.
The rules may be different in other jurisdictions.
Tedious but necessary disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, and the foregoing does not constitute legal advice.
Yup. Did the same to me too, though I got him to warm up slightly when I started noting the big names in creationism in his collection of books.
Y'know, for people that think us evilutionists eat babies in drug-induced stupors while dressed in drag, they sure seem pretty nonchalant when interacting with us.
I mean, I wouldn't turn my back on me.
First, a nitpick. Gastonia is just west of Charlotte, not south. I used to work there. It's a nasty, dirty redneck town. No offense intended toward the folks forced to live there - it's the town that's unpleasant, not the people.
More importantly, didn't any of the other nerds here notice that this dolt referred to 40 percent as a "majority"?
Plurality is, I suppose, what he meant. But if he thinks people had pet dinosaurs during the Bronze Age, why would I expect him to get his math right?
Well you see, all that water heavily diluted and vigorously shook everything so the planet had a huge homeopathic orgasm, causing magic to erupt everywhere.
CA-NA-DA!
CA-NA-DA!!
CA-NA-DA!!!
CA-NA-DA!!!!!!!!
Or, in this case, CA-NUH-DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHH!!!
We all took our fair share of pucks to the head growing up. Some of us just remembered to wear our helmets....
Gastonia, NC. obscure? Home of the deadliest labor riot in American history. I'll try to go for pictures as well
Is this a sudden attack of honesty or sheer, blind, uncomprehending idiocy? Methinks it's the latter.
The US has had the "Gospel Fossils Portable Dinosaur Museum" and "portable StarLab" (planetarium) for some time now. We can do everything just as well as Canadians (except hockey).
I figured there would be a spate of "shoot the messenger" when I mentioned Europeans' attitude towards Gypsies/Roma. Every time I go there it's the same, but I didn't run a scientific poll to see how prevalent it actually is. All I can say is that I never talked to anyone who liked them.
As to the gypsy problem, I'm surprised no one has suggested it simply be called a cheap carny side show.
I first thought that the title might be referring to Creationists of Gypsy ancestry, as it capitalized "Gypsy". A lower-case "gypsy" would have avoided any confusion, as would a different word. Not that I was confused for long, or even really care--the one person that I have met who claimed to be of Gypsy ancestry was using it as an excuse for bad behavior.
But yes, the unravelling sweater image is unfortunately apt. If any part of a the Bible is wrong, the whole blessed mess falls apart. If any part of science is wrong, we figure out why, learn something and emerge even stronger.
Oddly enough, the believers don't notice that the Bible is already wrong, simply through internal inconsistencies. My favorite example is the lost child of Adonikam. Nehemiah 7:18 says there were 667 children of Adonikam, while Ezra 2:13 says there were 666. And it doesn't even blink at the number of the beast.
Speaking of revealing, the bit about self-serving is particulary odd. Sean Meek is not at all meek when he refers to himself as "Executive Director".
Juby taught science at my high-school...... (catholic highschool)
This reminds me of this cartoon:
PS: You want to be careful about dissin' the Gypsies. Remember what happened to Billy Halleck...
Oops. I mean this cartoon:
http://i681.photobucket.com/albums/vv178/Blondin07/IDiots.jpg
Hmmmmm. No Gypsies. No Travelers. Is it okay if we say "Creationist Chautauqua?" Indignant rant from upstate NY in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 . . .
Blondin:
Gypsy pie is bad, but I think Angelus might have had it worse (though at least he got a chance at redemption...)
wow, I was just about to post something about the chautauquas.
It's okay to mock, but are atheists doing the same thing - reaching out to people where they live? The chautauquas were instrumental to helping build progressivism in the late 19th early 20th century, and also brought lots of art and culture. I would love to see them again, because as fab as the internet is, there is no substitute for meeting people face to face.
As a kid growing up in Ohio I used the words "gyp" and "gypped" to refer to being swindled or conned. As dog is my witness, never once did I connect those words with "Gypsies". Not until far into adulthood, that is, and then only when it was pointed out. Nor did I ever learn that "Gypsy" was itself pejorative.
Heck, even in the Who's "Goin' Mobile" it was used as a word for "person who travels around with no fixed home": "... I'm a hippie Gypsy".
Personally, I think it's sad when a reasonably useful word gets prohibited for political correctness, but I do understand the need to not be needlessly offensive. So, my apologies to all the Roma folks I unwittingly dissed over the years.
Oh, and Cuttlefish: how about "... a Rom, ah, it stinks"? Though, far be it from me to attempt any corrections to the master wordsmith.
Hey PZ, Norn Iron has had one of these for quite a few years now:
http://creationoutreachministries.com/
http://www.creationoutreachministries.com/stephengilkinson.htm
In 2000, I feel lead by God to start a Creation Trailer to spread the creation message. This is a mobile creation resource and exhibition unit that is taken to various public events during the summer months to engage the public on the creation subject.
Indeed. The awkward thing, for me, is that the one and only time I've had an encounter with some Roma in Central Europe it broadly fit the stereotype. Which is a bit embarrassing when you know it's a detestable stereotype and don't share the admittedly far-too-common dislike for the Roma.
p.s. In the above link, I don't know/recall why I used the term Gypsy rather than Roma. ;-(
@82
Depends on what you mean by honesty or idiocy.
The strain of American Fundamentalist Christianity that most of the creationists we see belong to has, at its very core, a tenet that says "if science says one thing and the Bible says another, the Bible is right and science is wrong." This is in direct opposition to moderate and liberal Christianity which both have decided that throwing out empiricism in the face of the Bible is in the long run sub-optimal if not incredibly harmful and so have the softer tenet of "if science says one thing and the Bible says another, your interpretation of the Bible is probably wrong and needs to be revised." Which is why liberal Christians are more likely to trot out the "it's a metaphor" defense than conservative Christians are.
So Meek is actually being true to his faith tradition - his interpretation of the Bible says one thing and the science says another, so obviously science is wrong because his interpretation of the Bible is the correct one. (When you state it that way the ego of the person holding the belief is pretty obvious, so the believer who holds to this kind of theology will always just use the shorter "The Bible says..." rather than "I understand the Bible to say...". It's easier to delude themselves that their self-projection onto the text of the Bible is actually the Word of God if they don't even admit that the Bible can have multiple interpretations.)
I hope that they never come to California.
#30 CitizenJoe
Oddly enough, I was in Gastonia about 30 years ago and I still recall having the best ice dream sundae (with a walnut caramel sauce) of my life from a small creamery in the town. Alas, I no longer recall the name or know if it still exists.
#56 Coraxyn
As a CDN living in the USofA, I have discovered that most Americans see the War of 1812 as an attempt to "liberate" Canada - at our request - and not as an invasion. The more things change the more they stay the same.
I have a couple of old Chautauqua books. There is quite a mix of sensible teaching and religious zealotry.
As a Canadian, I know I am not responsible for the evils other Canadians have spread throughout the world. I am done apologising for Bryan Adams.
I am really, truly sorry about the Portable Creation Museum though.
I'm also sorry about the Big Valley Creation "Science" Museum.
Canada has a lot of good to offer. Don't be afraid.
Australia has one of these as well, and has had one for a number of years. A Christian friend told me in 2007 that her church had brought one in several times over the years she had been attending.
Oh, GAG!!! I just watched the Juby video (where he is fishes for financial support for his traveling testimony to CreoIDiocy). He claims he is an "artist & robotic engineer" who has designed exhibits for 10 CreoIdiot museums in North America.
Flashback to the Jennifer McCreight** video: When Dinosaurs Walk With God: A godless biologist's trip to the Creation Museum. There is a guy in the Q&A session who claims to be a an engineer who worked for JPL(?) and who claims responsibility for the exhibits at the Hamatrocity. He says absolutely nothing about the bad science but a lot about finding Jesus (with some comments that sound a lot like the unraveling sweater analogy). These guys wrapping themselves in the respectability of hard science while working to destroy its very core, make me want to puke. They are science whores - (with a thousand apologies to real, hardworking whores who at least do an honest job and give value for their money.....)
**Jennifer McCreight is the President of the Society of Non-Theists and senior majoring in Genetics and Evolution at Purdue University. Her talk was about her visit to the Hamatrocity with the PZ gang (and PZ linked to this site because she also posted the talk by Greta Christina on "Atheism & Sexuality"; and there is also a talk by PZ on "A Few Things I've Learned From Creationists" that is fun.
This guy travels around. Gypsies travel around. I'm pretty confident that was the only meaning PZ intended.
I've fairly confident I've never heard that before.
This is brilliant, believers are so easy to fleece.
We need to put one of these together and hit all the southern states, we'll make a fortune and donate the proceeds to Haiti.
We can MAKE a difference, I tell ya.
BTW, Gypsy?? way to stick your foot in it, PZ.
I'm fairly confident that I've never heard of an American with an opinion about the War of 1812.
I wonder what percentage has any knowledge that Canada was attacked during that war. Well under half, I'd guess.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
Well... a guy can dream, can't he?
(2 Kings 2:23-25 -- for those of you scoring at home.)
Bwahahahaha!
Actually, it's nearly reached room temperature by now. And the good news is that the people of my generation are pretty much disabused about the whole god thing, and those who are believers are kind of ashamed of admitting it.
When I was a kid we used to snicker at the religion teacher (and do pretty nasty tricks on her, poor woman), and it was considered most uncool to like the "relish" classes - you didn't want to be labeled as a dorky, friendless jesus freak. Even at thirteen we could recognize useless and boring bullshit.
We have lots of old churches on sale. Anybody here needs a church ?
Well, unless you're referring to some 'metaphorical' reading of the Bible that does not, at the very least, make the claim that God exists, then of course any atheist believes the Bible is false.
Therefore a logical conditional phrase "If X, then the Bible is false" will always be true, for any X. If the Bible cannot be read literally, then the Bible is false. If the sky is blue, then the Bible is false. If my dog plays the accordion, then the Bible is false. You get the idea.
As a sometime engineer, I maybe should keep quiet, but I really don't have a lot of respect for engineers outside of engineering, so here goes . . .
Engineers, by and large, are very much hands-on, not abstract theorists. Where they differ from automobile mechanics, say, is that they understand the concepts behind the mechanisms, and can develop variations on mechanical devices. But that understanding is mathematical, in a way, it is not intuitive or creative. It is, frankly, simplistic.
An engineer is also provincial, in that an engineer is proud of what he knows, and somewhat contemptuous of those who don't know what he knows. (Factories are full of people with similar attitudes--they took five years to learn to run a machine, they can run only that machine, and they demean beginners for their lack of skill.)
Even though an engineer works in a strictly mechanistic world, and seems to work from a non-theistic basis, he doesn't truly understand the world, and superstition and fashion influence his work a great deal more than he knows, and his people skills suck.
So when an engineer sets out to understand the universe, he is immediately out of his depth, but has sufficient arrogance to go on, anyhow. He is also pre-wired to accept the simplest explanation, and lacks the critical skills to evaluate the entire theory, and quite willing to condemn people.
Engineers are, therefore, damned vulnerable to Creationism. The idea of God as a super-engineer feeds their ego, the simplistic explanation that God did it is satisfying, and the gaping holes in Creationism are not even seen. And they get to do some hating.
As I write this, memories and examples come flooding back. I could name names, but I am just going to remember the raving jerk who was not only a poor engineer, but a deacon of a Baptist church as well. (Yeah, Doug, you.)
I don't like the content of the traveling museum, however, I do enjoy the concept! A lot of Canada is rural (in area as pointed out in #31) and would benefit from a (for lack of a better word since apparently I can't use "traveling" [#43]) moving science museums. This would be a beautiful way to combat misinformation in areas that don't have museums. Some rural areas do have hometown museums, however they usually deal with the local history such as trains and mining like the ones I have here.
Adding to what I babbled above about engineers . . .
Some speculate that the very concept of a creator came when early man, considering the origin of the world, looked at the tools that he was making and assumed that there was a maker of the world. Man the toolmaker, Man the mythmaker of God the worldmaker.
So yeah, blame the engineers.
No no no. God is currently giving Ken Ham directions on how to build an ark ...
I first read it wrong. I still have the golden compass in my head (just watched) and i read gyptians. The dutch translation is sublime zigeuzen, both a reference to the water and the travellers like Pullman ment.
Well, because i had stories in my head and i happen to like stories (like an african story which tells us how the zebra got its stripes! ;-) i was thinking you would tell us some roma or sinti creation story, not about this idijet in his van.
I am very very dissapointed...
*sigh*
Well, anyone else who knows a good creationstory for around this internetcampfire?
"You'd think they would receive more sympathy after losing their homeworld to the geth."
Can someone create a version of the Krogan genophage for the Duggars?
I would suggest calling those of the mobile snake oil (snake-blamer?) shows "peripatetics". I think it has the advantage that they'd probably think you were insulting them.
@93 Dang! I never knew about gyp coming from gypsy either, till just now. Never connected it. I'm gonna have to tear a little piece off my "Genious Certificate" and eat it.
On the local Minnesota front (or affront to scientific thinking) we have this:
ESSAY TOPIC: Write a letter to Charles Darwin explaining why you believe biblical creationism is more plausible and reasonable than Darwin’s theory of evolution.
This is from tennis player turned evangelist radio host David Wheaton and his World View Ministries. I heard it on the radio the other day.
Don't tell your children to enter though, the deadeline is over, but I can't wait to read through the IDiocy. I'll bet anything the word "complexity" will be used in one or more of the winners.
The guy in that video thinks "pollsters" are the people who respond in polls...unless he actually conducted a meta-poll where he polled only pollsters? Or perhaps he's just stupid.
nice
Ian Juby, The Northern Magus, is promising animatronic dinosaurs. He also wants your donation of 570 model boxcars, and 15 locomotives. I'd love to see a robot brontosaurus made out of toy train bits.
Or maybe little Boxcar Gertie the Dinosaurs are going to ride the rails through his plaster diorama of the Grand Canyon. Look out! Flash flood!
He's pretty big on the insulated, heated, a/c features of the containers he wants (I'm sure a/c wouldn't hurt in the donor Winnebago either). Hey...could the Ark have been a container ship?
I am SOOO embarrassed to be an Albertan right now. Actually, embarrassment isn't a new emotion for me regarding my birthplace. When the creation "museum" opened up I thought I would die of embarrassment.
I would recommend it to visiting friends though. My favourite part was the carnivorous sheep presented in conjunction with Noah's ark. Just be sure to visit the railway/antique car museum next door.
33:"Which is kind of demeaning and insulting in itself, since the Roma are living, breathing people, but not nearly as bad as using the term as an insult."
Actually, I would like to point out that many Roma live in the US as well.
I apologize in advance if I'm somehow being inconsistent or otherwise train-wrecky when I say that.
Regarding the flood. Where did all the water come from, and where did it go?
Because, if I'm not mistaken, if the flood was world-wide, the only way of getting rid of all the water (which seems to have appeared from outer-space), is to either reshape the land, thus creating higher land masses, or freeze it. Is either of these events mentioned in the Cheap-n-eazy Home Knit Instruction Book?
As a Canadian, I am truly ashamed to see this. I am so glad I moved to Minnesota where this kind of idiocy cannot happ ... Oh, shit.
What was your first clue?
Nobody has yet noted the "National Papers" that apparently kicked up a great fuss.
"The Red Deer Advocate" and "The Edmonton Journal" should not ever be mistaken, in any way, for papers with national circulation. The National Post and the Globe and Mail are the only two papers with truly national reach in Canada, and the Post is mostly a rag. Both of the papers in the video are from Alberta itself, Red Deer being a medium-sized town and Edmonton being a small city (albeit the provincial capital for reasons that surpass understanding).
There's a reason why he's going to rural Canada, and that's because the schools there tend not to be very good. The climate of religion is quite remarkably different north of the 49th - we don't really talk about it much. Public displays of religiosity are seen as mostly crass in the big cities. I haven't lived in a town smaller than 25,000 people so I can't say how ubiquitous that is nation-wide. Alberta tends to be the more credulous of the provinces anyway (similar in many ways to Texas, for all its virtues and faults).
Well, if you exclude history teachers, historians, and people with an interest in the history of that time and place, I suspect you're right… Very few would have an opinion on that war. I don't, mostly because I don't fall into any of those categories and have basically forgotten much of what I was taught about that time and place and war.
Good question! I'd tend to agree with you, it seems unlikely to be too many, given the seeming massive stupidity that's seems to have successfully attacked and conquered the USA… But what is being taught over the last four decades or so? Certainly when I was in school ((High School?) in California) the war et al. was discussed in sufficient detail I'd be astonished that anyone who was in those classes would have forgotten Canada was attacked. Many other details (using myself as an example), yes, but that, and other incidents (burning of DC, the after-the-war-was-over battle at New Orleans, and so on) seems, to me, hard to forget once learnt.
Sisyphus [#123]: There's no need for deep embarrassment over a little museum in little Big Valley. We've still got Ted Byfield, Ezra Levant, the Calgary Sun, the Wild Rose Party, climate change denialists by the score, und so weiter ... much "better" things to be embarrassed about.
Are you old enough to remember the provincial politician (candidate? - I don't remember for sure) who suggested that actors could do the job of teachers, since they were so good at acting as teachers in TV programs? Remember Jim Keegstra?
Actually, I kinda miss Teddy B.'s "Alberta Report". I used to save up a good stock of vitriol and lay in wait for someone to phone to try to sell me a subscription. I'd feel really bad if I talked to just about anyone else as badly! With them, it was cathartic.
Awww... c'mon! Why does it have to be Gastonia. As if my hometown doesn't already have a bad enough reputation :p
@#98: You're probably thinking of Tony's Ice Cream. They're a bit of a local tradition, and during the summer they'll have a line out the door all day long.
Good to see someone else from Gastonia pop up here. And I'll second that motion for Tony's Ice Cream.
I'd recommend Wired Coffee Express: 1933 Hoffman Road Gastonia, NC 28056 | 704-866-9960. They have coffee and awesome gelato! Seeing as it's snowing right now in Gastonia, you'll probably want to go with the coffee.
Incidentally, the Gastonia Freethinkers group meets at Wired often. Yes, that's right. We have our own freethinkers group! We're meeting up with the members of the Charlotte Atheists and Agnostics for this mobile museum. I have a feeling there will be more debunkers of Creationism attending the tour than those who actually support it.
I was swearing about engineers above. I want to add that they are all deeply conservative in outlook, so again, creationism prone.
Well, as my wife is at least one fourth gypsy and so my kids and grand-daughters have also gypsy blood, I certainly do not despise gypsies as a whole or as individuals. But the title of this thread is closer to the truth than PZ probably thought as gypsies are often preyed upon by evangelical and pentecostal sects of USAmerican origin. And so an unusual portion of them are thus creationists. So there are gypsy creationists and more than it's healthy.
Although I doubt that European gypsies would think that's a good idea to do an itinerant creationist show. Even creationist ones are not so dumb...
#104 blf & #106 Glen Davidson I suppose it was because I was talking to more educated USians who actually knew about the War of 1812 - but who had their own spin on it. Actually, IIRC, Irish revolutionaries (the Fenians ?) were pushing for war against British rule at that time, so maybe the US took up their invitation to come liberate Canada.
#111 Menyambal Much the same reason that doctors seem to be over-represented in the CreoID movement. The majority in their profession work at applying a knowledge base, not doing the theoretical research that acquires it. They are highly skilled and apply their skills successfully for good outcomes. It feeds their egos; but also distorts their understanding that scientific research focuses on the "unanswered questions", not known outcomes.
All it takes is one well placed moose on the highway...