Ali Hussain Sibat seems to be a bit of a kook. He was on a silly television show in the Middle East in which he'd make paranormal predictions, and he also was making a religious pilgrimage to Saudi Arabia. The latter was considered just fine; the former has got him in big trouble. The Saudi government convicted him of sorcery and is planning to decapitate him.
Now that is barbarism. Here in America we let fortune-telling frauds get rich, instead.
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The "traditional" religions take magic and sorcery so seriously. Do they actually believe it exists?
I mean come on, if witches and warlocks are real, why don't they save themselves with magic? It's one thing to treat magic like a nonsense fake religion but another thing altogether to act like it's a real threat.
Of course they believe in bullshit.
Here's Mohammad wrestling and defeating a Jinn, but letting him go "out of kindness":
Abu Huraira reported that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) saying: A highly wicked one amongst the Jinn escaped yesternight to interrupt my prayer, but Allah gave me power over him, so I seized him and intended to tie him to one of the pillars of the mosque in order that you, all together or all, might look at him, but I remembered the supplication of my brother Sulaiman:" My Lord, forgive me, give me such a kingdom as will not be possible for anyone after me"
And here is protection against magic spell:
Allah's Apostle said, "He who eats seven 'Ajwa dates every morning, will not be affected by poison or magic on the day he eats them."
Apparently, the prophet himself was not a fan of dates:
A man called Labid bin al-A'sam from the tribe of Bani Zaraiq worked magic on Allah's Apostle till Allah's Apostle started imagining that he had done a thing that he had not really done....
And the list can go on forever.
Source: the search engine for Hadith, http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/musl…
What's the big deal? He wasn't using his head any way ...
Ok, I take that back. He shouldn't be murdered - he should be fined to repay the victims as much as possible, and imprisoned.
You can't say that PZ, you're going to shatter those who think you want to decapitate all theists for being believers...
Oh who am I kidding, even if you were kissing their asses they would still think that.
To #3:
I don't think he should be imprisoned - everyone has a right to their own superstitions (David Cross). Yes, he was probably profiting by fooling people with false claims, but that's what all main religions do, so...
A TV host with 5 kids.They're going to cut his head off for John Edwards style stuff.
Not that it needed any proof that the Saudi establishment and "legal system" is a farce that only serves a few rich bigoted hetero guys to suppress a whole society.
Don't expect any help from the Saudi's best mates the USA, Ali.
I bet he didn't see that coming.
Which, as well as being an old (and somewhat tasteless in the circumstances) joke, is also a possible legal defense in this case - he couldn't have been really practicing sorcery since if he was he would have forseen his arrest and avoided Saudi.
1. When Woos Collide
2. Did anyone say, "A religion of pieces" yet?
3. I am constantly amazed that Saudi is "our ally" when they are one of the worst offenders against human rights in the world. Then I remember how much oil they allegedly have.
Ugh.
As disgusting as his woo-ery is... Fucking seriously? BEHEADING?
But I guess that's just what religion does. I know I'll certainly never be going to Saudi Arabia.
The beautiful thing about living in your own little world is being able to write off any inconvenience with your own made up crap. Off the top of my head I'd counter that with: god trumps the devil's magic with His magic once they catch the warlock! Boom! Prove that wrong! :O
Holy shit, that's harsh, to say the very least. And here we have Quackass continually trolling the The Thread claiming to be persecuted.
From the country that brought us Osama Bin Laden? Don't anybody act shocked.
Enjoy.
Off topic, but great news: Simon Singh wins his appeal: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8598472.stm
Just as well it wasn't Cherie Booth/Blair presiding!
George Hrab had an entertaining rant about this in his "Religious Moron of the Week" segment of the most recent Geologic Podcast (#159).
http://www.geologicpodcast.com/
We should chip in and buy Glenn Beck a ticket to Saudi Arabia. We'll tell him Saudi Arabia is in England and they love him there.
Honestly curious : How can the Saudis execute him for something he did in Lebanon?
Before you all get too smug, innocent people are still executed in the United States.
It may not be as dramatic, but the end result is the same.
OK, at least the condemned gets to leave Texas...
S | April 1, 2010 4:54 AM:
So they too should be imprisoned. Your point?
The Saudi government plan to lop this guy's head, and your Liberal POTUSA Obama prostrates himself before the KSA's Abdullah:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WlqW6UCeaY
I guess Sir Ian McKellan now has two very good reasons to avoid Saudi Arabia.
Have these people started smoking their crude oil? I can't explain it any other way.
Was listening to a report on the radio the other day listing the countries with the most executions, look at the top 5 : China, Iran, Saudi-Arabia, Pakistan, USA.
Source
Axis of evil, alright.
PZ, PZ, PZ ... ::shakes head::
Please pay attention: You're not supposed to say bad things about Islam; it upsets the fundies.
What? That's ridiculous. Don't be absurd.
An axis has _three_ countries.
Because Islamists don't see a international boundaries as valid. That's something that everyone here should have learned in 1989 with the Rushdie case.
It's something that, unfortunately, mostly right-wing people tend to enjoy pointing out. It is actually a global war because they see it as global and don't adhere to the niceties of diplomacy.
I mean, neither do we in certain cases, of course. But when we go after people abroad, it tends to be because they have attacked us already or are planning to attack us.
In this case, you have somebody who didn't attack anyone, is merely guilty of idiocy or, at worst, being a panderer to idiocy, and is going to be executed for this regardless of what international borders expressly allow or disallow. He hasn't actually killed anyone (that we know of), and...let's face it...he isn't exactly a clear and present danger to any particular country or government.
His only crime is that he doesn't follow religious law which, to Muslim extremists (and, let's be clear, Christian extremists as well - Hutaree, anyone?), is worthy of decapitation.
I'd like to re-iterate that as much as I agree with the "new atheist movement", I also think they tend to stick a bit too much to the politically correct side and are quicker to point out the failings of Christianity (that's fine - I do all the time as well) than the failings of Islam. I know where that particular sentiment comes from, and I do understand it. I just happen to think that it's very wrong to fall victim to it at the moment.
That isn't to say that atheists don't criticize Islam in general. Obviously, we've all seen people do it. I just feel that it tends to automatically get a "...but..." appendage almost every time it does. As in: "That's really bloody horrible and I absolutely find that revolting. But you,know, our Christian extremists are..." - which I think we all agree with in principle. But I don't see the same said when criticisms of Christianity come out. I've never seen a: "Well, those Hutaree assholes are really bad and deserve to be locked up for life, but you can also look at the Islamists..." - also something I absolutely agree with, but you won't find that addendum anywhere in Atheist forums.
That does bother me a little bit. It's not that I don't want to hear all the critics talking about how Christianity can also harbor legions of extremist cults (Phelps, et al...), I just don't want it appended each time to critical remarks about Islam as well.
Case and point: people pointing out execution rates in the USA vs. Saudi Arabia in this thread. Very valid points and I think we all agree that this is an outrage in of itself. But the two things don't have much to do with one another and appear quite easily to serve more as an indictment of US policy rather than the topic at hand: the critical indictment of Saudi policies.
Again: I completely agree that executions in the US are a travesty and like most liberals, I am completely against them in general principle (although I will give a pass for mass murderers in many cases, and genocidal maniacs, but that is an entirely different discussion in my mind). And I honestly wish our country would stop doing this sort of horrible thing.
But pointing it out does give credence to the right-wing talking point that "liberals really just hate America" sort of stupidity that they always try to point out. I'd rather stop giving them the ammo. Let's criticize all the stupidity, by all means. But let's stay on the topics at hand. If we constantly pull in Christian extremists and US policy to balance out the loathing and disgust at other religions and policies of different countries, we really do risk having that "just hates Christianity and America" finger pointed at us over and over again.
It's not worth it.
BTW, sorry for the long and hyper-critical post. I know it isn't on topic but I felt it had to come out somehow. And I've been on this purge for a while on this particular topic. =)
I just hope I didn't piss off too many people. And again, I agree with all of your points, I just think they ought to be made more carefully at times. =)
(And if anyone thinks that I don't, you can read my twitter feed /summerseale, to see that I absolutely do agree with "The New Atheists") =)
Fuck you, Al B Quirky.
Shiny, happy people holding hands.
Always keep in mind, Saudi Arabia is the good guy in the war against "islamo-fascism".
Yes, there are times that I gag on my own sarcasm.
This from the civilization that developed algebra. They were handed all that oil money. Where are their research universities? Space program? Supercolliders? What a waste they are.
your non sequitur fu is strong
How long until Cimordain stops by this thread?
@Rev. BigDumbChimp
See, that's what I'm talking about. That sorta bullshit is everywhere and it means the right-wing morons are the ones listened to about Islam instead of the rational Atheist movement. =(
If only we could get rid of the absurd religions in our own country we might eventually get around to doing something about lunatics like this. Until then it's a little hard to get worked up about this sort of kook-on-kook violence. But maybe I'm just the bad guy.
Quirky showed himself to be a fuckwit idjit prior to showing himself to be a bigot. His credibility is in the negative numbers with his loser after loser posts. Only a totally delusional fool would bother at this point.
And that's the problem right there.
I wonder if they use a guy with a sword to do the head-removal, or some sort of machine -- like the Thundering Might of Allah (Peace Be Upon Him) Lop-Master 5000 or something like that.
.............................
Summer Seale: “I'd like to re-iterate that as much as I agree with the "new atheist movement", I also think they tend to stick a bit too much to the politically correct side and are quicker to point out the failings of Christianity [...] than the failings of Islam.”
Well, in a not-very-poetic moment, I did once say “Islam sucks donkey butt.” So you have to give some of us atheists credit for trying.
But – going with the head-removal metaphor – the truth is that Islam is a zombie off in the distance. Christianity is the zombie shambling around at our own front door.
Exactly.
"braaaaaaaaaaains"
Jeez. I just Googled the phrase "Islam sucks donkey butt" and there was ONE hit. I may have originated the phrase.
At least now I know what to put on my tombstone.
Which also leads one to wonder what a "conviction" entails in saudi arabia. Presumably it involves a duck and a very large balance...
http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_pictures/grail/large/HolyGrail028.jpg
How do the Saudis get away with trying a man for a 'non-offence' that occurred in Lebanon?
Seemples! Political boundaries are man made and therefore subservient to Islam which was inspired by Allah, creator of the multi-verse which he made for the benefit of Muslims. And, because Islam is not just a religion but a politico-cultural ideology it applies all across Allah's domain.
Hank Fox:
They either behead the culprit using a knife that make a bowie knife look like a vegetable peeler (They stand behind and cut the head off which is quite slow), or they make him kneel and lean forward with his hands tied behind his back, and when ready the executioner will jab him at the base of his spine so that he arches his upper body backwards and then delivers the fatal swing!!
It is a great dishonour for the executioner to fail to behead the victim the first time, because as you all know Islam is the Religion of Peace and Allah is a merciful God and does not wish people to suffer unnecessarily.
If you wish to learn more of The Religion of Peace including the above story they have a gander at:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks
One wonders why if this guy is a sorcerer, he can't just poof the sword into a giant feather, or carrot or, turtle or dildo just before the fatal strike.
How will Islam deal with that possibility?
I mean they are claiming he has magical powers.
I don't see it. I've been following the atheist community for some time and I see plenty of people willing to criticize islam without bringing christianity into the equation.
If you don't believe me, do a you tube search for Pat Condell, or look through the archives of Pharyngula. You'll find plenty of energy dedicated to islam in both places.
Having said that, a good reason for the ...but addendum when discussing islam, is that the christians are always trying to dismiss thier own problems by observing how jawdroppingly stupid and brutal the drama of islam is.
I am absolutely convinced that in these cases they do not really believe he is a sorcerer, but rather are using him as a symbol of their tyrannical power.
They will brutally murder a person in public to make sure people toe the line.
Control with fear, that's all it is. They murder 'apostates' for the same reason.
These kind of sick life-or-death games that theocracies play are exactly the kind of things that Christopher Hitchens uses to illustrate the wickedness of religion in his wager with believers, and this one in particular only strengthens Sam Harris's argument (from TED talks) that we should end cultural relativism once and for all. This conviction and action against Sibat by the Saudi state is a moral evil and so is the dogma that allowed it to be considered just.
I think we should bring back tarring and feathering.
Tell people it's a "homeopathic remedy" or something.
What a perfectly horrible example of pointless murder and savagery by a religion.
Hmmm. Explain to me again why Yahweh, the xian god put much of the world's oil in a flat sandy dry area owned by the followers of Allah?
The bible god always seem spectacularly clumsy and inept.
FWIW, xianity used to do the same thing based on the bible commandments about witches and sorcerors. The mean old secular authorities took away their ropes, stacks of firewood, and torches. They are still ticked about it.
The fundie xian Dominionists want to turn the US into a xian Saudi Arabia or Iran again. I'll pass.
Thanks,Mack
Colin (#17) asked: "Honestly curious : How can the Saudis execute him for something he did in Lebanon?"
Because Saudi Arabia has more oil than Lebanon?
Because possession is nine-tenths of the law, and the dummy went to Saudi Arabia?
Does everybody know how many Roman Catholic churches there are in Saudi Arabia? Or Methodist churches? Or synagogues? NONE - not one.
In 2008 the Saudis sponsored a discussion at the United Nations on religious tolerance.
David Mitchell has the right idea on how to handle this sort of thing. I wish they'd follow his civilized example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDNgmdGMpuY
https://me.yahoo.com/a/1rq1WoYr1MctLtWHU3bDfh8zT8ilpA--#21a24 | April 1, 2010 11:46 AM:
Woo should be criminalized wherever it causes people to be injured, to loose money, to not get needed medical treatment, and so forth - material harms. As long as it is criminalized on that basis, conflicts with free speech do not occur. In fact, many of the needed laws are already in place, but poorly enforced, or the penalties are not strong enough - see for example the seemingly endless series of frauds Kevin Trudeau has committed.
There are also other things which must be done, in addition to laws criminalizing woo; laws making something a punishable crime are never sufficient in and of themselves. For example, skeptical thinking must become widely taught, at the youngest possible age. That alone would greatly reduce the severity of the problems caused by woo which can't be criminalized due to conflicts with free speech.
@Rev. BigDumbChimp
...Or he could hold up a copy of the koran and spontaneously change it into a copy of Satanic Verses with a little doodle of muhammad on the cover. He could make a daring escape, as the arteries and heads of the of saudi arabian thought police began exploding from the sheer force of their impotent rage...
It will stay like this until Islam has its own enlightenment. When the persecuted sheeple rise up and reject the woo murderers.
America and Xianity had their own woo murderers in Salem.
Hopefully when Islam matures the barbarism will cease. Unfortunately I don't believe we will see this in our lifetime.
It's always better to worship a meteorite (or tektite).
Honestly, is there anything more stupid than their reverance for that rock in Mecca?
And I doubt that Muhammed or God is going to say "April Fools, we got you idiots good." But if there were a god, that's what would happen.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
IMO, believing that a cracker is the flesh of your god is a tad bit stupider.
Beheaded for a crappy TV show. Is anybody thinking Jerry Springer or Larry King? Sometimes a good idea is a good idea even if you don't agree with the source.
llewelly | April 1, 2010 12:43 PM
Any institutionalized form of truth-finding / woo removal is subject to corruption by the forces of ignorance, stupidity, cupidity, and avari ce. And it will be corrupted. And then woo will reign supreme.
What do you think this idiocy in Saudi Arabia is, if not corrupted truth-finding? Persons do need to be held accountable for what they say in the sense of non-deniability, but ... legal sanction, however good the original intentions, has historically been a path to disaster. I see no reason why it would not lead to similar disasters in the future.
Thanks,
Mack
I suppose Sylvia Browne won't be visiting Saudi Arabia anytime soon!
The Abrahamists-vs-wizards puzzle is well-phrased by Paisley Tinkle in the second panel of this Wigu cartoon.
"They believe wizards are… Satanic? That wizards have Satanic powers? Even though there's no such thing as wizards? … It makes even less sense when you try to explain it."
It seems peculiar in the highest hardcore religionists don't just laugh off the psychics, magicians, and Wiccans as merely flaunting false beliefs… until you consider that, by definition, theists do believe in magic. Not just miracle-magic from the good guys, either. Consider the following passage from the Book of Exodus:
So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as Jehovah commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs.
Whenever I start to think atheists may be going to far in calling the Bible a collection of "fairy tales", I only have to open my copy, and I'll find a wonderful gem like that one.
Technically they're the same god (the God of Abraham).
"Allah" is just the Arabic word for (captial-G) God, and is used by Arabic Christians as well as Muslims. (Just as "Yahweh" was the Jewish name for God, while Christians have traditionally called him "Jehova" due to a mistranslation, or just "God" or "LORD", etc).
According to Islam, Adam, Noah, Moses, Jesus* etc were all good Muslims and prophets, but Christians and Jews distorted their teachings, so Muhammed was sent to restate the true teachings (i.e. yet another claim of "We're the only True Religion).
* Who was (according Islam) the product of a virgin birth, but he wasn't the son of God. He wasn't crucified either (he was due to be, but God beamed him up to heaven just in time, and someone else got crucified instead in the confusion).
whoops:
peculiar in the highest that hardcore
@snoof #24 an axis is an intersection of two lines so more than 3 countries can be involved
I fully intend to defend this individual in any way I can. We're making jokes, but this is a matter of basic human rights. My heart does go out to him and his family. Fuck. The guy's got kids, too, and he's going to be executed because of the stupidity of a religious government. Of course, no world government will issue a fucking ultimatum to Saudi Arabia. Of course.
First off I want to go on record for being against beheading people for their thoughts, or speaking about their thoughts, or being charlatans, but ...
If he does get beheaded, since he could predict the future, he knew that by predicting the future he would cause his own beheading. He saw it in his mind's eye in advance, and did it anyway.
Kind of like Jesus, in a way.
I love free society, where we are free to practice and make mad cash off every kind of woo, but also free to question, critique, and mock every shade in the woo-spectrum.
No 1 'why don't they save themselves with magic?' the real ones do. Just the fakes and falsely accused get busted.
gaypaganunitarianagnostic
And defraud people and possibly harm or kill them with said woo.
Yeah, escaping regulation of dangerous things sold as medicine. That's just peachy.
Yay free woo!
@49
Fraud is already criminal, and so is negligence, and so is reckless endangerment. I'm not an expert on the law by any means, but it seems to me that (as you noted) most or all of the ill effects of woo that tangibly hurt people are already criminal acts. I think the real problem is that a lot of fraud isn't recognized as such and taken seriously by law enforcement.
I don't think you can or should criminalize woo in and of itself. We are in serious trouble when the government feels compelled to tell people what they are or aren't allowed to believe.
@#26
Yeah, there's another left-leaning, jihad-enabling, sharia-compliant Muslim-hugger. If W had half a ball at all, he would have invaded KSA, in the process procuring a reliable source of oil until we develop equivalent alternatives.
* Who was (according Islam) the product of a virgin birth, but he wasn't the son of God. He wasn't crucified either (he was due to be, but God beamed him up to heaven just in time, and someone else got crucified instead in the confusion)."
His name was Brian and he wasn't the messiah he was just a very naughty boy.
Also, Jesus fuck, God is a dick in Islam. I love how they intentionally changed it to make god callous and guilty of manslaughter.
Before you have too much sympathy, his brother was interviewed by reporters and said "he's a good man, he doesn't deserve execution. He's not an infidel, if he was then he should be executed, but he's not".
Islam. Religion of peace and love.
I read the CNN story -- it looks for all the world to me as if the trial court has confirmed that he is, in fact, a sorcerer.
That's a hell of an admission for an Islamic court to make, don't you think? They're saying this guy is more powerful than local imams?
And the court isn't itself on trial for blasphemy against Islam?
The Saudi government should intervene on the side of reason. But absent that, we should all make it clear that the execution of this guy is an admission that followers of Islam have weak supernatural connections, if any at all.
The more they execute, the stronger the Force of Reason grows. Hydra-like. (Maybe there was a purpose to that Hydra fable after all . . .)
Ed Darrell
I assume everyone is aware the gentleman was not murdered. Lebanese not to be beheaded Friday for witchcraft: