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« Grow up, Gateshead | Main | Got student loans? Don't want to pay them back? Become a priest! »

It gets better
Category: Equality
Posted on: September 23, 2010 1:45 PM, by PZ Myers

Everyone should watch this video. Dan Savage has started a new project, prompted by the suicide of a bullied gay teenager, Billy Lucas, in Indiana. So they're trying to get the word out: It gets better. Don't despair. And they're collecting other people's stories, too.

This particular project is specifically about giving gay kids the strength to carry on, but it's not just gays who are made miserable by schools and religion and other agents of the enforcement of artificial norms. I suspect that the readership of Pharyngula, all you geeks and nerds and oddballs, is enriched for people who were outliers in their youthâ¦and still are, but most of us have reconciled ourselves to our status. It gets better for all of us.

Another good essay to read is The disease called "Perfection". We all face ridiculous expectations from our culture, and we all face these pressures to conform with the boring mundanes with their distressingly unrealistic and uninteresting ideals. I didn't have the stigma of being gay, but I was the homely, unathletic, four-eyed weirdo no girl would look at twiceâ¦and I can say that it got better for me, and it can also get better for everyone.

By the way, Dan Savage also talks about the unenlightened oppression of a Catholic upbringing. If that's your burden, rest assured that that can get better, tooâyou can become an ex-Catholic, and while the world may still be tinted in shades of sin and guilt for a long time to come, you'll get better.

Hang in there.

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Comments
#1Posted by: bcoppola | September 23, 2010 2:00 PM

The perfection/geeks/nerds/oddballs thing reminds me of an old psych joke:

Q: What's a 'well adjusted' person?
A: Someone you don't yet know very well.

#2Posted by: raven | September 23, 2010 2:07 PM

IIRC, the suicide rate for gay teenagers is higher than the general cohort group.

So the fundie xian bigots are not just making themselves feel better by spouting nonstop hate.
They are helping make kids desperate enough and miserable enough to kill themselves.

Thanks religious bigots. We all know that xianity is a benign religion and jesus loves us.

#3Posted by: Equisetum | September 23, 2010 2:23 PM

Thank you, Dan Savage, for doing this. This is a great idea.

#4Posted by: A. Nuran | September 23, 2010 2:25 PM

If there is some unlikely cosmic justice Dan and Terry have just won their "Get out of Hell Free" card.

If there isn't, then the they have all my admiration anyway for doing something undeniably compassionate and good.

We need more people like this.

#5Posted by: And-U-Say | September 23, 2010 2:25 PM

With all due respect for personality and intelligence as well as good looks, and having seen a picture of the Trophy Wife, I would say things have very much gotten better for you.

She's a keeper.

#6Posted by: Abdul Alhazred | September 23, 2010 2:28 PM

Just one thing folks. It's not just religious nuts who bully gay kids.

I grew up on the Lower East Side of Manhattan, aka the "East Village". There was certainly no predominating fundie culture there in the 1970s when I grew up. Old leftists and lots of hippies.

Ethnically diverse as it gets, too. Open racism not socially acceptable even back then.

But there was plenty of picking on "faggots" (whether actually gay or just "faggoty looking") in school.

It pervades the culture.

#7Posted by: mandalay713 | September 23, 2010 2:30 PM

I listen to Dan every week. I love his podcast. The day after this video was posted I learned a friends little sister, who is a lesbian and is constantly bullied at school, had taken a handful of pills and was in the hospital recovering from a suicide attempt after having a cup of urine thrown on her. I posted this to my friends Facebook wall and urged her to show this to her sister. Maybe it will give her hope that she has a wonderful future ahead of her. Her parents are removing her from that school and is putting her in a school that is more diverse. It's heartbreaking what young teens have to endure.

#8Posted by: Eamon Knight | September 23, 2010 2:31 PM

Yeah, I remember being a bullied geek in ~grade 7, and one of my teachers telling me: Hang in there; it gets better. She was right.

#9Posted by: Akira MacKenzie | September 23, 2010 2:33 PM

If there is anything I can't abide more than a bully, Its someone telling the bullied that "it gets better," especially when it comes from other abuse victims. They fucking ought to know better!

So, I suppose they're just suppose to suck it up, take their lumps, and spend the next few years in Hell awaiting the glorious day that the abuse ends?Sorry, it's not that simple. Not everyone is going to be able to put years and years of abuse behind them when they graduate from high school.

While I'm not homosexual, I was a clumsy, overweight, socially-awkward teen with emotional problems who wore his love of role-playing games and science fiction on his sleeve. Each day I was subjected to some form of physical and/or emotional abuse from my classmates. It got so bad that I nearly pulled a Columbine and was about to bring a pistol to school to deal with the problem until my sister, who saw me take the weapon from the cabinet, talked me out of it.

Eventually, I too longed for the day I would graduate and get the fuck out of that Hell hole. However, it didn't end there. To this day, 17-years later, I still have nightmares about school. I have problems relating to people because I'm still afraid that they're going to mistreat me (and don't get me started on my nonexistent sex life). Social situations sometimes lead to panic attacks. Because of my treatment in high school, my present quality of life has been significantly degraded.

Things didn't "get better" for me and I seriously doubt they ever will.

What Dan and Terry should be calling for is to make bullying (and ignoring bullying) an actual crime with felony consequences. That way the situation is dealt with in here and now rather than waiting for abuse that someone might not be able to put behind them to end.

#10Posted by: Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM | September 23, 2010 2:36 PM

Abdul, you have to keep this in mind: it is the cultural warriors who are against anti-bullying measure. The true believers think that the bullying of "the other" is their right.

#11Posted by: bcoppola | September 23, 2010 2:38 PM

Hit submit too soon @#1 to say: Saw this earlier on Blag Hag. Great project.

#6: FWIW and IMO, it's less pervasive now I think/hope -- but yeah, I remember it too.

Caveat: I'm even older than PZ & don't have enough contact with younger people to know current attitudes about gays. I just hear that it's better than in my youth.

#12Posted by: Snikkers | September 23, 2010 2:42 PM

This is an effing brilliant campaign.

#13Posted by: atram | September 23, 2010 2:42 PM

Yesterday, a girl at my high school ended her life. Last night, we lit candles for her. Support shouldn't come after the fact. I wish she could have seen this.

#14Posted by: Dhorvath | September 23, 2010 2:45 PM

Akira M,

What Dan and Terry should be calling for is to make bullying (and ignoring bullying) an actual crime with felony consequences. That way the situation is dealt with in here and now rather than waiting for abuse that someone might not be able to put behind them to end.

I am truly sorry to hear about your experience growing up, but I am a little concerned with your retributive attitude. Do you really think that will work? Taking all the bullies, rounding them up and putting them in some juvenile detention centre is going to concentrate their narrow view of acceptable behaviour. Instead, they need to be educated that different people make the world a better place. They need to know that we need sci-fi geeks as much as we need grid-iron heroes and I don't see how anyone can learn that without exposure.

#15Posted by: flowgisto | September 23, 2010 2:45 PM

Dan Savage is one of the best people I have ever had the pleasure to listen to. His podcast is a constant source of understanding and love. It truly gives me hope knowing that there are people like him out there.

Keep up the good fight

#16Posted by: Melissa | September 23, 2010 2:47 PM

Yes, definitely a social outlier here. I went to high school in the sticks and made exactly zero friends and spent most of my time saving my autistic little brother from his classmates and teachers, who never made the effort to understand. On the other side of college now, things have gotten a LITTLE better. I'm still a complete basketcase.

#17Posted by: Gyeong Hwa Pak, Das unzufriedene Pikachu | September 23, 2010 2:49 PM

Support shouldn't come after the fact. I wish she could have seen this.
This. But thanks to fundie death cultists groups, programs to help troubled kids are being shot down because of "teh liberal agenda".

#18Posted by: Girl Noir | September 23, 2010 2:54 PM

I grew up as an outsider, but had a strong group of outsider friends to support me, and a loving family at home. I rarely suffered such abuse. Still, everyone needs to hear (especially those in the throes of teenage passions) that life gets better. Bravo, Dan Savage - I've admired the man for a long time, and this is a huge bump to my esteem for him.

#19Posted by: Jules | September 23, 2010 2:58 PM

Akira, first of all, I'm really sorry that you had to and still do go through that kind of trauma. No one should have to deal with that.

In response to this:

What Dan and Terry should be calling for is to make bullying (and ignoring bullying) an actual crime with felony consequences. That way the situation is dealt with in here and now rather than waiting for abuse that someone might not be able to put behind them to end.
Dan Savage actually does campaign for that. Many people do. And it works. Even in places like Tulsa, Oklahoma, whose public school district just added sexual orientation to their nondiscrimination policy. I lived there for about a decade before moving a year ago. I was pleasantly surprised by this news (and, conversely, sad that it took so long).

The important thing about this project is that it is an approach to help victims here and now. It's not the only approach being used, but it's a valuable one to include. Knowing that the suffering will someday end does help you make it through.

I don't say that as someone who was bullied (I wasn't, really). I say that as someone currently dealing with a tragedy that sometimes makes it hard to get out of bed in the morning. But I do. Because I know that it will get better someday.

#20Posted by: gryphontiger | September 23, 2010 3:02 PM

Man, this video makes me both laugh and tear up. It amazes me the hate that gay kids have to go through in their daily lives (I left high school early because of it), and I cannot fathom how people â especially those who identify as Christians or even just as simple ânice peopleâ â can display such vile behavior to another human being. Dan Savage has performed a tremendous act of good by starting this project. You may even see me up there at YouTube if I can get over my camera shyness.

Sometimes, saying âit gets betterâ is all we can give these kids to cling to.

^..^

My own blog post on this.

#21Posted by: Jules | September 23, 2010 3:03 PM

Actually, I need to amend my comment. He doesn't advocate exactly that. He advocates dealing with bullies.

#22Posted by: Girl Noir | September 23, 2010 3:03 PM

Akira - no one should ever have to go through what you did. You're absolutely right that things should be changed in the here and now to minimize bullying. Dan and his husband aren't trying to tell anyone to "suck it up" - just trying to remind them that there are, and will be, good things worth living for.

It sounds like your childhood really did a number on you - have you tried therapy? As someone in therapy myself, I've learned that it's possible (albeit with a lot of hard work) to change our assumptions about ourselves and our social interactions.

#23Posted by: Ordeneus | September 23, 2010 3:06 PM

Wow, that was quite touching I thought. I'm sure like many kids who had to face tribulations if I could have seen the future me telling me "dude, it's gonna be OK" it would've saved me much angst and close calls with NOT making it.

#24Posted by: Brian | September 23, 2010 3:07 PM

I am introverted and intellectually inclined, and that trifling difference was enough to net me difficulties in high school on a regular basis. Can't imagine what it was like for the kids who actually were gay. But yeah, I got through it by having faith (literally -- the evidence was thin and sometimes contradictory) that "it gets better". And boy, did it. The contrast between high school and college was ... indescribable.

It gets better. It gets so much better.

#25Posted by: Kraid | September 23, 2010 3:08 PM

I was put down in highschool for being nerdy. Soon I'll be publishing a research article and officially naming a gene. The real world values intelligence, so yeah, it definitely got better for me.

Akira MacKenzie #9:
Sorry to hear about your ongoing torment. I think the purpose of the "it gets better" message isn't to say that life automatically gets better (although just getting physically away from the crowded, hormonal simians does help), or that highschool bullying is something to be suffered in silence. The point is that in the post-highschool world, you are more free and empowered, more able to embrace your actual self, and the stupid cliquey ostracism bullshit pretty much ceases to exist. Or something to that effect.

#26Posted by: Shala | September 23, 2010 3:10 PM

Not to go completely off topic, but this is one of the reasons I'd support homeschooling any children I had over public schools.

Children in junior high schools are monsters, and should be treated as such. High school kids, from my experiences, don't seem to be as bad.

I am truly sorry to hear about your experience growing up, but I am a little concerned with your retributive attitude.

It worked pretty well at my high school. Monsters from the 9th grade came to our high school and bullying had increased until our principal announced that our school was built next to a police station for a reason. Suddenly, very little bullying happened for the rest of the year.

#27Posted by: mokele | September 23, 2010 3:11 PM

Dhorvath - It's a fundamental issue of consequences, regardless of motives. If kid A beats up kid B for any/no reason outside of school, the cops get involved, kid A at least goes before a judge, etc. But if the exact same thing happens in school, there's no consequences beyond trivialities like detention/suspension. That policy makes school into a safe-haven for all of the worst behavior. I've seen it in action - kids with grudges or intent on mayhem would wait until they could pull it on school grounds, because the consequences were so minimal. If you want to teach kids something, there needs to be consequences. Kids will slack off in the class of the teacher who never gives less than a C, and they'll get away with as much violence as possible in a school that refuses to treat crime like crime.

IMHO, assault is assault, no matter where it happens. Harassment is harassment, no matter where it happens.

#28Posted by: Shala | September 23, 2010 3:15 PM

You don't even need to go to a school to see how obvious of a problem bullying is in the education system. You don't need to go anywhere near one.

You just have to get on a bus.

IMHO, assault is assault, no matter where it happens. Harassment is harassment, no matter where it happens.

Incidentally this is one of the reasons It Gets Better for people - colleges have such standards and so the students actually have to act like human beings. Same with most ethical workplaces.

#29Posted by: lhikanliveson | September 23, 2010 3:16 PM

homely, unathletic, four-eyed weirdo no girl would look at twice

^ This is me. I'm 20 and in a community college (working towards a transfer to a 4-year) and this is STILL me. When does it get better?

#30Posted by: Dianne | September 23, 2010 3:16 PM

Reminds me of something an asylum seeker told me...He was from a culture that made the rural southern part of the US look friendly to gays and had fled to the US to avoid being killed for his sexual orientation. Needless to say, he was afraid of his desires, afraid of anyone finding out, and bitterly ashamed.

After years of trauma and denial, he eventually found his way to New York and to a group of people who helped him accept who he is.

Still, one day on the subway a man looked at him and said, "Fucking faggot." He somehow found it in himself to look the man in the eye and say, "Yes, I'm a faggot. And there's nothing you can do about it."

Hang in there kids. One day you'll be in a place where you can be who you are and there won't be a thing anyone can do to stop you either.

Oh, and the patient in question got asylum recently. Sometimes the US pulls the good guy hat out and puts it on.

#31Posted by: Hairhead | September 23, 2010 3:17 PM

Hey Akira, Melissa, et al.

I, too, had a horribly traumatic childhood and school years. I am 53 now and I've got some two-edged perspective for you:

1) The effects are PERMANENT. You are who you are because of what you went through. So am I, and I have dealt with continuing depression and anxiety throughout my life.

BUT!!!!!

2) The outcome IS NOT (permanent). You can fix yourself, you can fix your situation, you can improve your present and your future. This requires self-examination, planning for a successful future, eliminating or curtailing self-destructive habits, asking for help, getting help, accepting the help, and working through the problems (which is about as much fun as pushing your face into a plateful of broken glass).

It is NOT easy, but it is way better than the alternative (continued bitterness, depression, and alienation).

No, never tell yourself to forget, never chide yourself for not forgetting, never gloss over what happened. At the same time as you admit that the past is immutable, accept that a fair portion of the future IS within your control. And that while things will never be perfect, they can be better, a lot better.

Feel free to unburden yourself here, Akira, we are warm, welcoming, and helpful, even if only to vent.

As for the other problem of victims "sucking it up" for years just to get through -- this is complicated. Some places and people are just shitty-to-the-bone and should be avoided; sometimes you need to escape. What gay/alienated/bullied kids need is a safe place of some kind, a national call-in line, a set of safe houses, or better yet, a written, legal guarantee of physical and emotional safety in the schools which contains enforcement standards and punishments.

If you really want to help kids, work actively in your area to the goal in my last statement.

#32Posted by: CCLCarm | September 23, 2010 3:27 PM

There is a new comedy/sci-fi/horror TV show on CTV's-Space network called Todd and the Book of Pure Evil. The theme is High School is HELL... The book of pure evil- sound vaguely familiar to the Buy-bull? Anyway these kids essentially sell their soul to be popular or have something they want. Last night was the preview and it starts next week. I think it will be SO therapeutic to kids who are going through the trials and tribulations of HS to have this alebeit strange show- complete with geeks and gay kids to be able to see that it could actually be worse! Premier is next week-9/29 on CTV- Space- Wednesdays at 9PM. A friend of mine, Chris Leavins, plays the guidance counselor. Chris is a gay man who has been in Canadian TV, films-starred in The Hanging Garden- dealing with a gay youth trying to committing suicide- but lives and comes home as an adult. He is internationally famous for his YouTube video series Cute with Chris.

I have just forwarded this video to our gay son and his boyfriend. I told him I am glad that he stayed strong until IT GOT BETTER! He is touring with Fiddler on the Roof currently!

Thanks for this PZ from a mom who cares deeply about this topic!

#33Posted by: raven | September 23, 2010 3:28 PM

Not to go completely off topic, but this is one of the reasons I'd support homeschooling any children I had over public schools.
My old school district once set up an alternative "free" school. It was for gay and counter culture kids who were getting bullied. It worked so well, all the smart kids from the HS moved over to it.

Don't think they still have it. What they do have is an online internet option for kids who fall behind or have other difficulties. It is quite popular.

These days, there are a lot of options besides just showing up and being miserable in an aging building. If public school is a nightmare for the kids, why not just get them the hell out of there?

#34Posted by: Dianne | September 23, 2010 3:30 PM

I was the homely, unathletic, four-eyed weirdo no girl would look at twiceâ¦and I can say that it got better for me, and it can also get better for everyone.

Whereas now you're a hot professor with a trophy wife and women sending you pictures of themselves nude but for some tentacles to attract your attention. Yeah, probably better. I can't help wondering whether it's true that no girl would look at you or that you simply didn't look back a the homely, unathletic four eyed girls who were looking at you though.

#35Posted by: Dhorvath | September 23, 2010 3:34 PM

mokele,
I am not saying that we should just leave the issue alone. I know that bullying is a serious issue and that it has long reaching consequences. I heartily endorse intervention at any sign of bullying because of this. I was arguing against Akira saying that we should make "bullying (and ignoring bullying) an actual crime with felony consequences."

I think that criminalizing a common adolescent behaviour is the wrong way to solve the problem. The most powerful motivator that teens have is each other, at that age desire for social standing is tremendous whereas fear of authority is virtually meaningless. Criminalization won't work because long term consequences have not become a part of most teens decision making process.

With that in mind, I think a larger emphasis in school on socialization and empathy would be valuable. Bullies need counseling, not incarceration.

#36Posted by: Shala | September 23, 2010 3:40 PM

Bullies need counseling

Bullies don't care. We're dealing with anti-social (and I mean anti-social in the sense of actually being anti-social; i.e. almost psychotic) teens who just need to be kicked out of schools. Criminalize it? Perhaps not. But the counselling can come after they're separated from the people they harm for, at least, the rest of the school year.

#37Posted by: theshortearedowl | September 23, 2010 3:44 PM

@Akira MacKenzie

Dude, that sucks.

But the "It gets better" thing is a poorly worded way of saying "High school isn't the be-all and end-all of existence, even though it may feel like that at the time."

Even now, although you focus on the negative in your post to prove a point, I suspect you have found the things about yourself that you can love and be proud of. That is the way forward.

#38Posted by: Miranda Celeste Hale | September 23, 2010 3:45 PM

I'm so pleased that Dan Savage is doing this. It's such an important project. He really is wonderful.

And thank you for linking to my post, PZ. (The ex-Catholic one at the bottom). I've been amazed by how many people have written me over the past few days to share their stories. It's quite depressing to realize that so many of us had to deal with such nastiness in our childhoods, but it's also good to know that we're not alone.

I hope that more people will share their stories, whether they be about their religious upbringings or their experiences with homophobia, etc. I think that reading/hearing/watching those kind of stories/videos, etc. really can help those kids and teenagers who are still stuck in miserable situations to know that it indeed will get better.

#39Posted by: And-U-Say | September 23, 2010 3:46 PM

There are no bad children, only bad parents. Make the parents suffer for the bullying acts of their children, and then things will change.

#40Posted by: Doug | September 23, 2010 3:52 PM

I like what these guys are doing, but as a few others here have mentioned, real life problems are sometimes a little beyond this kind of advice, well-intentioned though it may be. My high school experience was an absolute living hell, characterized by a lot of fighting (I was a geek, but a tough, angry geek). It ended abruptly one day when I applied a blunt instrument to one of my tormenters (who was not a fellow student, by the way). Fortuantely, he survived, but for me this meant juvenile diversion, then a stint in the army. My military experience included service in what is generally considered the elite unit of the US Army, and was essentially a PhD in violence. Since no government is going to spend the kind of money it takes to train a person there way I was trained, then not actually get their value out of it, I got to practice my skills quite a bit, resulting in some mental images that I will never, ever, get out of my head. I am much older now, and have found some peace in a career that I truly love, but I still can't help but think that had I had a different kind of adolescence, I would have some things that I think are permently out of reach for me. It does get better, but some wounds never heal totally.

#41Posted by: Mrs Tilton | September 23, 2010 3:53 PM

1. homely, unathletic, four-eyed weirdo no girl would look at twice

2. ???????

3. Trophy wife!!!

So, how does that work?

#42Posted by: Jules | September 23, 2010 3:54 PM

There are no bad children, only bad parents. Make the parents suffer for the bullying acts of their children, and then things will change.
A nice idea, and often true, but not always. Sometimes a person is a rotten apple, even if they had decent parents. It's a bit too complex to say that only the parents or only the children need to be held responsible.

But I do think it would be a good step to have parents investigated and implicated appropriately. How to pull that off justly is not really something I can speak to.

#43Posted by: Kraid | September 23, 2010 3:55 PM

lhikanliveson #29:

homely, unathletic, four-eyed weirdo no girl would look at twice
^ This is me. I'm 20 and in a community college (working towards a transfer to a 4-year) and this is STILL me. When does it get better?
For me, 23. YMMV.

Something to keep in mind: the "getting better" isn't necessarily all external, nor is it necessarily passive. It's not like one wakes up someday and suddenly the real world is full of rainbows and sunshine. Post-highschool, you have more freedom and power to make your life better. For me, it took some physical work and a lot of psychological work before I could really say things were better.

#44Posted by: Jules | September 23, 2010 4:00 PM

For me, 23. YMMV.
It's been a rolling process for me, with improvements here and there. But I'd say around 26 or so I got a lot better. As I mentioned before, I wasn't bullied in school, but I did come from a crazy environment that I had to come to terms with. About 26 is when I started to feel more stable and secure, both in myself and in the idea that the universe doesn't always just throw lemons in your face.
#45Posted by: Ben Goren | September 23, 2010 4:02 PM

What a terrible condemnation it is of our society that it is so necessary that a project like this should exist.

Cheers,

b&

#46Posted by: Akira MacKenzie | September 23, 2010 4:11 PM

@ Dhorvath

Do you really think that will work?

The only reason why bullies do what they do is because there is no substantive punishment for it. When I was being bullied, my parents went to the prinicpal who told that that "we're educators, not security guards." And even if they are caught, what sort of penalty would they face? A couple of days in after-school detention. A note on their permanent record? Do you think they care?

Bullies are animals, and animals understand only two things: pleasure and pain. It's time to start inflicting pain to the point where it overrides the "pleasure" of abusing someone. Knowing that they picking on that nerdy or gay kid will mean they get to spend the next few years in prison along with life-ruining social and economic stigmas that come with behind branded a "felon" for life is a step in the right direction.

@ Girl Noir:

I've dealt with therapists before. All they'd do is tell me that I need to get out more and start "liking myself." Brillant! I already know that! Could you be more vague, please?

Besides, therapy is currently out of the question right now. I lost my job last month and with it went my health insurance. (BTW, thanks Republicans and right-wing Democrats, you fuckers!) Even with insurance, the cost of seeing someone was too steep for me to handle.

It's almost as if insurance carriers didn't think that mental illness was an actual health issue.

#47Posted by: Shala | September 23, 2010 4:12 PM

1. homely, unathletic, four-eyed weirdo no girl would look at twice

2. ???????

3. Trophy wife!!!

So, how does that work?

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Mesmetron

We'd better check to see if there's a collar.

#48Posted by: Vicki | September 23, 2010 4:12 PM

"It gets better" doesn't mean "one day you will wake up and it will be sunshine and kittens, and you'll be a millionaire with attractive people throwing themselves at you." It means that high school is not forever, and that there are better things available in the wider world.

It means you won't always be forced to spend much of your day surrounded by teenaged bullies.

It means that high school is not the best years of your life. That myth contributes to misery and suicide: being that miserable, bullied, and trapped, and told "this is as good as your life will ever be" is practically a recipe for suicide.

It means that you won't always be living with the parents whose response to "I want you to meet my girlfriend" is to send you to therapy. And yes, I was lucky: the therapist didn't force me to talk about anything I didn't want to, and my parents never threatened to kick me out.

It means you won't always be the only one, or the only one you know. It means you will be able to get away from the church that preaches hate. You It means you don't have to spend your life living a lie for the sake of your grandparents, or your parents' idea of their social status.

#49Posted by: Bethistopheles | September 23, 2010 4:12 PM

The worst part is that there are plenty of kids who not only have to be bullied for 8 hours, five days a week by their peers, but also have to get told how much of a worthless faggot they are by their own parents (usually "fathers"... if you can even use that term). It's hard to have hope for the future when all you've ever known is shame and humiliation. When the only feedback you ever get is negative.
But it does get better.

And to AKIRA @#9, or anyone else with a similar sentiment, it's very much understandable that you still deal with the shit that happened to you every day. You have every right to be angry and bitter about it. But the fact that it's still having such a powerful negative effect on you to this day doesn't mean you have to live like that forever. If you aren't already, please do yourself a favor and see a counselor or a therapist. You don't need or deserve to feel the way you do. Just talking to someone about what happened can be cathartic. When you deal with what happened and talk about it with a qualified professional, it really does help. And because you're dealing with it in a healthy way while you're awake, one's brain tends to ease up on the nightmares after you've been in therapy for a bit. It's like when you have a stomach bug and all you want to do is puke, but you can't. You feel miserable! But once you can vomit all that vileness out, you start to feel a lot better. (It may be a gross analogy, but it's a good one, damnit! :])

Speaking as someone with a form of PTSD from 20 years of trauma, please believe that it can get better. It may be a struggle for a bit, but it really, really DOES get better. Sure, sometimes life really friggin' blows. But those sucky times can suck a LOT less than they do right now! And the times that don't suck will increase in quantity.

Don't let the anger rule you. It'll take a heavy toll.

#50Posted by: Bethistopheles | September 23, 2010 4:18 PM

Akira -

Since you posted while I was typing away, I didn't see your entry at #46. I don't know what state/county you live in, but where I am, I went to something called The Center for Families and Children when I was broke and unemployed. If you're broke enough, it's free. If not, it's very, very cheap.

Hope you can find some resolution.

#51Posted by: Kraid | September 23, 2010 4:18 PM

It's been a rolling process for me, with improvements here and there. But I'd say around 26 or so I got a lot better.
I'd say about the same, actually. 23ish was when the process began, but 25-26ish is when when I could really appreciate significant improvements across the board.
#52Posted by: Gaebolga | September 23, 2010 4:19 PM

In #36, Shala said:
But the counselling can come after they're separated from the people they harm for, at least, the rest of the school year.

[Emphasis mine]

And that bolded section is, quite simply, why it gets better. Yes, you'll still run into violently-supported ignorance out in the real world - probably even directed at you on occasion - but most likely you won't be required by law to keep putting yourself into such situations 5 days a week.

Akira, I empathize with your situation and pain, and I shared many aspects of it myself. The thing I realized once I'd gotten enough critical distance (about 7 years of it) was that the only way those motherfuckers from high school could still hurt me is if I decided to do it for them.

They can't touch me anymore, they can't talk to me, and they can't affect my life at all unless I keep on bringing those memories up.

I can freely admit that many of the things they said about me in high school had a basis in truth, but accepting the undeniable fact that I'm fat doesn't require that I also accept being called a "worthless fat-ass pig."

#53Posted by: Gaebolga | September 23, 2010 4:26 PM

Funky; it seems like everyone who gives a date for "when it gets better" seems to fall in the mid-twenties.

Which is about the time brain development is done.

#54Posted by: Dianne | September 23, 2010 4:26 PM

Bullies are animals

Yes, they are. But they're H sapiens, just the same as you. They're assholes, but they're not a different species.

#55Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawmqD_mcUIrSfOTlK3iGVsnEDc… | September 23, 2010 4:27 PM

I'm not sure I should be saying this, but I'll relate my own experience and then let others sort it out.

I fought back.

I was bullied in junior high school, and like many of you, I was the unathletic, four-eyed, intellectual kid who liked to read.

One day, one of my usual tormentors jumped me just outside gym class. Instead of giving in, I fought back. Actually, I beat the crap out of him.

Of course, I got a fat lip out of it, a trip to the vice principal's office and some detention. But I was completely shocked when the VP looked at the other kid and read him the riot act, while letting me off comparatively scot free.

After that, no more bullying. Not from anyone.

As soon as you mark yourself as non-passive, the bullies back off. At least in my experience.

Not that the rest of my junior high/high school experience was a bed of roses. But I got through it, got my scholarship, went to college and never looked back. I think I'm the only bona-fide millionaire from that graduating class (it was a decidedly working class community). I've traveled the world, had some amazing experiences, found joy in family and true friends.

The bullies stayed behind, in dead-end jobs. Their best years were high school.

This is my ultimate advice: Never let high school be the best years of your life.

#56Posted by: Jules | September 23, 2010 4:28 PM

Funky; it seems like everyone who gives a date for "when it gets better" seems to fall in the mid-twenties.
Which is about the time brain development is done.

It's actually something I've noticed, too. I've shared it with younger friends of mine as well (just hang on until your mid-20s, and I promise you'll start to feel better). There just seems to be a general calming effect, and I genuinely think mine had something to do with being able to reason a bit better (though I wouldn't say it was only that).

#57Posted by: Shala | September 23, 2010 4:30 PM

Yes, you'll still run into violently-supported ignorance out in the real world - probably even directed at you on occasion - but most likely you won't be required by law to keep putting yourself into such situations 5 days a week.

Not to mention if someone is violent to me now that I'm 21 (and turning 22 on the 29th this month! My, I feel the midlife crisis coming already!), I can seek legal repercussions that don't amount to a slap on the wrist. In school, your best option is to fight back and hit hard. It won't stop some people (no, not even getting the shit kicked out of you by a person you torment stops some monsters) but it's better than nothing happening to them.

My situation was a lot better than those out there. A lot of people in my high school just got their act together and grew up.

#58Posted by: Dhorvath | September 23, 2010 4:31 PM

Akira,
I am appalled at how your childhood must have been and I sincerely wish that you did not have to go through that. I dearly want for no one to have to feel that way, that time of life has enough drama packed into it for an unbullied child.

Bullies are animals, and animals understand only two things: pleasure and pain. It's time to start inflicting pain to the point where it overrides the "pleasure" of abusing someone. Knowing that they picking on that nerdy or gay kid will mean they get to spend the next few years in prison along with life-ruining social and economic stigmas that come with behind branded a "felon" for life is a step in the right direction.
This is vitriolic hyperbole, bullies are children. I am not saying that they have more rights than the bullied and by no stretch of the imagination do I think that a blind eye should be turned. What I am saying is that your solution won't work. Your argument for causing the bully more pain will only make them more likely to behave poorly towards those they see as weaker than themselves.
#59Posted by: Graeme | September 23, 2010 4:31 PM

@ #45

Is it a terrible condemnation that this sort of thing needs to exist, or is it a bright point that it does? Poh-tay-to, Poh-tah-to.

As an optimist, I'm going to go with the latter. Based on my experience, I'd say it gets better. For me, it was 2nd year of uni, but I'd say that I'm probably in my happiest state at the moment. As I'm 26, I'll hope there's more in front :)

#60Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | September 23, 2010 4:32 PM

I was bullied in high school for being intelligent and non-athletic. Being introverted and socially awkward didn't help either.

It did get better after I left high school. I spent six years in the Navy, where I showed I was competent at my job and that was all that mattered. It did help I was in an intellectually elite portion of the service* where nerds were quite common. Nobody worried about athleticism or social ability in college and especially not in grad school.

I admit that high school was a miserable part of my life, one I never want to repeat. I've never been to any of my high school reunions (the 45th will be next year) and I've no intention of going to any in the future.

But my life improved dramatically after high school.

*There are such sections of the military. I was a nuclear machinist's mate. To get into nuke school I needed to score in the top 20% of an IQ test and the one-year long school had a 30% drop-out/flunk-out rate.

#61Posted by: Boudicca | September 23, 2010 4:35 PM

As I gotten older I've noticed that anyone who considers highschool to be the best years of their lives is generally pitied.

It's not always possible, but I try to make EVERY year the "best year of my life".

#62Posted by: Lyra | September 23, 2010 4:40 PM

Akira MacKenzie:

I was sexually abused as a child. Because of this, I went through elementary/middle/high school with a set of social skills that practically put a flashing sign on top of my head that said, "Bully me!" And yes, the problems that resulted from being sexually abused and bullied didn't just disappear when I entered college.

But you know what? It did get better. Is my life perfect? Of course not. But it is nowhere near as terrible as it was in high school. And however you feel about what Dan and Terry are doing, actions like theirs saved my life. When I was in school, suffering, my mother always assured me that things would get better when I got out of high school. I held on to that thought with a desperation I can't describe. It's one of the reasons I didn't commit suicide, no matter how much I wanted to.

Yes, everyone should oppose bullying (and Dan does). But I cannot stress how important I believe it is to let kids know that just because their life is terrible is high school doesn't mean it will be terrible forever. If I had believed the people who said, "These are the best years of your life," then I wouldn't be here to type this message to you. So, oppose bullying, but that isn't all you can do. There are many things that we can do to help our youth. This is one of them.

#63Posted by: tdanielpearce | September 23, 2010 4:41 PM

THANK YOU for the link to my post The disease called "Perfection". I would encourage everybody to not just read the post, but to read some of the comments that have been left as well. Some will absolutely break your heart. Some you'll relate with. Some will make your jaw drop. The comments have changed my life.

Dan Pearce, Single Dad Laughing

Have a great day because every day should be beautiful.

#64Posted by: Ichthyic | September 23, 2010 4:50 PM

from "A dirty little girl, her head hanging in shame":

Although I left Catholicism fifteen years ago, on occasion I still catch myself wondering what I need to do in order to rid myself of the guilt, shame, and feeling of dirtiness that, in one form or another, is almost always my companion. I sometimes find myself feeling frustrated: why, I wonder, canât someone just tell me what penance to do? I obviously no longer think in terms of sin or feel the need to go to the confessional, but the desire for absolution remains, like an itch that cannot be scratched.
Who can deny that this is a form of child abuse?

I know who can deny that it's child abuse.

Nick Matzke.

#65Posted by: Melissa | September 23, 2010 4:52 PM

Sadly, in my experience, the quiet kid acting up for the first time gets in a LOT more trouble than the bullies who are always breaking the rules. It happened to my autistic little brother, who was made to sit in the hall all day where the whole school could see him after he barely kicked at a bunch of scum-of-the-earth kids who were explicitly trying to drive him over the edge.

I've never forgiven the teacher involved for that.

#66Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawmqD_mcUIrSfOTlK3iGVsnEDc… | September 23, 2010 4:58 PM

@ Ichthyic....

Karl Gibberson, too.

#67Posted by: ButchKitties | September 23, 2010 4:59 PM

As soon as you mark yourself as non-passive, the bullies back off. At least in my experience.
This was my experience as well, but I'm still hesitant to recommend physically fighting back. It might get the bullies to back off, but it also might get the bullies to come back with reinforcements.

#68Posted by: imokyrok | September 23, 2010 5:16 PM

@55. I adopted the same strategy in school. I went to seven different schools due to my family moving and as a small slight girl and a newcomer I was always the target for the local bully. I learned that no matter how much they hurt me I marmalised them too and they thought twice about coming at me again!

Having said that this is over thirty years ago and now schools where I live have anti bullying policies and lessons and certainly in the schools my three children have attended that kind of behaviour is just not tolerated - so there is no excuse for it to go unaddressed in this day and age. Here in Ireland we were very upset to read this year about an Irish girl who emigrated to the US and committed suicide due to bullying in school. Teenagers can be horrible but it is possible to change a school culture to make the bullies the unacceptable ones, rather than the victims.

#69Posted by: Jules | September 23, 2010 5:26 PM

We really need to foster an environment in which kids will stick up for each other. While plenty of kids are vicious little beasts, many are not, but they are too afraid to stand up for the ones being picked on. I went to a small school where I was actually quite popular, and if anyone tried to bully someone, they got a quick verbal kick in the pants from me, and others would jump in on my side. It actually made a difference. There was virtually no bullying in my high school. We as students just didn't allow it. Sadly, I can be fairly certain that it was us and not the size of the school that kept the bullying down. The reason I can say that is that I know a little girl whose mom just pulled her out of there due to terrible bullying*.

At that age, peer opinion matters immensely. If you create an environment in which bullying is ridiculed by the students themselves, you'd probably cut down on bullying quite a bit.

*I really wanted to punch those little 12-year-old brats in the face, I was so fucking mad about it. [/HULK SMASH]

#70Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/K2PNji0at.txAjzTShOlxwLuFcVVFwbnng--#bd813 | September 23, 2010 5:27 PM

I am gay, but that wasn't really the problem in school. For one thing, 'gayness' wasn't in the forefront on public consiousness at the time. I had a mild speech problem and wasn't well socialized. The verbal harrasment I suffered has caused me to be depressed and a bit antisocial for the rest on my life. Oddly, things were better in highschool than earlier.

#71Posted by: Tim | September 23, 2010 6:19 PM

Amanda's story about becoming an ex-catholic touched me. I had it easy; neither of my parents were practicing Catholics, though they sent me to a Catholic school. It was easy for me to throw off the yoke.

One thing occurred to me after reading her article. I am perplexed and disappointed that such an obvious thought has not occurred to me until now:

What should we think of a religion that encourages -- nay, requires -- a young girl to talk to an adult male stranger in the confessional about her sexuality? Admittedly, I don't have the slightest idea what sexual "sins" a 14-year-old girl might be capable of (I certainly didn't when I was 14!), but it seems to me that such a religious practice ought to come under the intense scrutiny of law enforcement. Why should we as a society allow such a thing? Are the priests on the other side of the screen (Do they still use screens?) beyond reproach? History and current events tell us the opposite.

I have a 13-year-old granddaughter. Fortunately, she will never go to confession. I cringe at the thought of the conversation that might take place between her and a 40-something priest who has been deprived of female companionship all his life. How do Catholic parents handle this?

#72Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawmqD_mcUIrSfOTlK3iGVsnEDc… | September 23, 2010 6:24 PM

@67...that's why I was hesitant to recommend it myself. In my experience, that doesn't happen, but that's not an iron-clad guarantee. YMMV, and all that.

My experience worked for me. It helped that I got instant support from the administrator who had to deal with us. It helped that I was lucky enough to have won the fight decisively (he wasn't expecting the absolutely violence of my response -- frankly, neither did I). It helped that I had started hanging around the weight room and even though I was a skinny non-athlete, I could bench press as much as the bully (or more). It helped that I had at least some non-parental, non-teacher support mechanisms. It helped that he attacked me out in the open, unprovoked, in front of witnesses who were not in his crew.

My feeling at the time crystallized into "as long as this asshole is going to try to hurt me, I may as well hurt him back." And then absolutely did not hold back. No mercy. None. Sure, it's going to hurt. It's going to hurt regardless.

It's my experience that bullied kids shy away from physical contact. They're generally kind, gentle, peace-loving. And that's what the bullies sense. That this is a consequence-free target. You have to change that dynamic.

Even a whiff of potential "danger" turns a bullied kid into someone not to be fucked with.

#73Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawmd0JQT5RGH9tw98hgR4Au80-… | September 23, 2010 6:27 PM

@ Shala #36:
@ Dianne #54:
A child, especially a teenager, who is taken to task for bullying should recieve a comprehensive psychiatric exam. A small, but statistically significant percentage of bullies are psychopaths - people with no conscience
and no feelings. There is no known treatment for this condition; it appears to be an actual physiological brain difference.

I am not sure what should be done with such people.

-- fireweaver

#74Posted by: jschmeau | September 23, 2010 6:48 PM

Akira (and others),
I think you have not found the right therapist. Finding a therapist can be long and trying process, but when you find the right one, you will know. My junior-high years were hell as well... I suffer from PTSD (partly from high-school abuse and mostly from other traumas). It took me awhile to find a therapist I was comfortable with who was able to help me with my issues. By the way, there are lots of therapists that do pro bono work or use sliding scale fees based on your income. You just have to do a little research and ask. There is no shame in asking for help. :-)

Here's to hoping it actually does "get better" for everyone.

#75Posted by: Abdul Alhazred | September 23, 2010 6:48 PM

@#30 ... asylum seeker ...

Beautiful story, happy ending.

#76Posted by: skeptifem | September 23, 2010 6:58 PM

Meh, I contemplate giving up plenty. Some things get better, others worse. Is "worth it" really a matter of math, of good outweighing the bad? Is better for me worth anything when it gets worse for countless other people all the time?

#77Posted by: skeptifem | September 23, 2010 7:15 PM

er, im at work and safe, so everyone knows. just really, really depressed.

#78Posted by: jschmeau | September 23, 2010 7:15 PM

Is better for me worth anything when it gets worse for countless other people all the time?
I understand the sentiment, but yes "better for me" is a good start.
#79Posted by: skeptifem | September 23, 2010 7:20 PM

also, wtf I have been bullied at various jobs. There seems to be at least one everywhere you go, and being sorta queer looking sets off a fair amount of them.

#80Posted by: OurDeadSelves, Mother of Death | September 23, 2010 7:22 PM

I just finished reading the "Perfection" post and now I'm sitting on my porch, in front of my laptop, crying.

Never in my life have I strived for perfection-- I was one of those lucky kids who knew that her parents loved her no matter what. They allowed me to have my failures* and my struggles and they never pretended to be perfect, either. They taught me that flaws and hardship are okay. They taught me to be me.

I've made my life into what I wanted it to be, focusing on what makes me (and the people around me) happy and never concerning myself with what other people thought.

Until now. I'm struggling with the fact that my husband's mother doesn't think that I'm good enough for her son, largely because I refuse to do the "perfection" thing. I'm not good enough because I'm not feminine enough, because I'm a college drop-out, because I don't have a white collar job, because I'm an atheist. No, I don't own a house, yes I supported my husband when he decided not to go to grad school, no I don't have children. Since I refuse to wear the mask of perfection, somehow that makes me irresponsible.

*Gasp!* What will the rest of the family think?

I feel like I shouldn't have to deal with this shit for the first time when I'm nearly 30 years old. If I could, I'd cut all ties with her, so I could peacefully continue to lead my imperfect life without her unwarranted judgments.

*Hello, 10th grade chem class!

(Sorry about turning this into a standard "My mother-in-law is an awful person" post, but I need to vent. Feel free to ignore.)

#81Posted by: skeptifem | September 23, 2010 7:25 PM

Not to mention if someone is violent to me now that I'm 21 (and turning 22 on the 29th this month! My, I feel the midlife crisis coming already!), I can seek legal repercussions that don't amount to a slap on the wrist.
unless its sexual violence, in which case you probably shouldn't bother trying. 5ish% conviction rate on the immensley small number of cases that actually go to trial, out of the 25% or so percent that actually get reported. Its bleak.

#82Posted by: markabbott50 | September 23, 2010 7:30 PM

You know what a geek ten years after graduation?

The boss.

I wish I would have been a geek.

#83Posted by: OurDeadSelves, Mother of Death | September 23, 2010 7:35 PM

skeptifem:

unless its sexual violence, in which case you probably shouldn't bother trying.

Really? That's your answer? I understand the underlying cynicism, but telling victims to not even try to get justice for the crimes committed against them is ludicrous.

That's right folks, don't even bother trying to hold someone accountable who has harmed you! What a fucked up mindset.

I speak from experience. I was much worse off from going to the police. It was terribly humiliating and I didn't get any support or help, and was made to recount events over and over again for multiple strangers, even though I had written down my account for them already. The numbers I gave you aren't fake- what kind of sadist would tell women that they should put up with everything entailed in that? Its up to them ultimately (duh), but the way that society works now makes it impossible for a trial to revolve around anything except a victim's character. It is a second assault on the dignity of a woman, she has to prove she didn't enjoy it. There are circumstances where it will almost never make a difference, like if you were drinking or if you husband did it or if you were a prostitute. It wastes the time and emotions of people to put up with this broken thing all the time.

What I don't like is people saying that there are consequences for violence, when one type of really sexist violence has almost no consequences for perps. The lie of "just tell the truth and it will be okay" hurts a LOT. I am being realistic, busting the myth that the law gives a crap about any of this.

My mindset isn't the thing that is wrong, its the misogynist society I live in and the rules I have to deal with.