Respectful Insolence

vitamin-c-pills_2471431b

Before I got sidetracked with a certain topic that’s consumed the blog, another topic that had popped up (albeit nowhere near as frequently) was the latest Ebola virus disease outbreak in Africa, the largest in history thus far. Indeed, as horrific as this outbreak is and as terrible a disease as Ebola is, with close to a 60% mortality even with the best treatment, it did produce one amusing bit of clownishness, and that’s that it revealed that there really is something too quacky even for Mike Adams of NaturalNews.com to tolerate.

I’m referring to an incident four weeks ago where a truly deluded Norwegian homeopath named Kjetill Oftedal posted on NaturalNews.com a recipe for a homeopathic remedy for Ebola that actually took the precepts of homeopathy seriously. What do I mean by that? Whereas previously discussed homeopathic remedies for Ebola used various snake venom that caused bleeding (you know, using something that causes one Ebola symptom in the healthy) as its starting material, Oftedal went one step farther and actually recommended getting blood or other bodily fluid from an Ebola victim as the starting material and then homeopathically diluting it away to nothing. He then recommended using it to prevent and treat Ebola virus disease. So quacky was this that Mike Adams, in an unprecedented bit of seeming responsibility, took it down. Still, it’s not too quacky for Oftedal, who promptly republished the post on his own blog. So it ever was with the unsinkable rubber duck of quackery that is homeopathy.

Although news about Ebola had faded to a dull roar in the background, the quackery for Ebola continues unabated, including colloidal silver, herbal remedies, and lots more. One feels for those poor leaders of west African nations who, in addition to having an outbreak of a highly lethal infectious disease within their borders to contend with, no doubt also have to contend with well-meaning quacks sending them letters about the glories of some nonsense or other that is touted as being able to save their people.

Take high dose vitamin C (please).

I don’t know how I missed this particularly irresponsible bit of quackery promotion, given that it’s in a blog in the Windsor Star, which is just across the river, but I did. About a week ago, there appeared a blog post entitled Dr. Gifford-Jones: Are West Africans needlessly dying from the Ebola virus? I don’t know if it also appeared in the Star print edition, but sincerely hope that it did not, although I do know that it apparently first appeared on Dr. W. Gifford-Jones’ website a couple of weeks before, a site that, not unexpectedly, contains a quack Miranda warning in Gifford-Jones’ bio page. One wonders what docs across the Detroit River are thinking, but I know a few and bet that they think this post is every bit as irresponsible as I think it is. For shame, Windsor Star!

I mean, get a load of what Dr. W. Gifford-Jones has to say:

But the great tragedy is that by failing to read history, researchers and doctors have, in the past, condemned millions to die from viral disease. Now it is happening again in West Africa. So what will happen if a case of Ebola disease occurs in this country?

Currently, Canada and other nations are scrambling to send untested drugs and vaccines to West Africa. Yet, in all the headlines and media stories surrounding this epidemic, not one word is spoken of the proven intravenous use of vitamin C as a cure.

One wonders why “not one word” is spoken of the “proven” intravenous use of vitamin C as a cure for Ebola. Could it be because it’s neither “proven” nor a “cure”? Nahhh. Couldn’t possibly be, could it? It couldn’t be because doctors generally don’t speak of quack cures in anything other than dismissive tones; that is, when they bother to mention them at all. It must be because physicians are ignorant or in the pocket of big pharma or both, right? Send those untested drugs over to Africa because the biotech company wants to make money. Oh, wait. There was a great deal of consternation among the CDC and the biotech company that makes the drug about using ZMapp, an experimental drug that was tried last month on two Americans who contracted Ebola, was reluctant to use it because it’s hard to make and because it had not even passed phase I trials yet.

But Dr. Gifford-Jones is just getting warmed up:

Medical history shows that ignorance, or arrogance, a better word, has been a common human trait of the medical community. One of the most flagrant examples is how Dr. Frederick R. Klenner was treated by his colleagues after saving polio patients from paralysis.

Klenner was a virtually unknown family doctor, in a small North Carolina town. He had no training in virology, no research grants and no experimental laboratory. But he had an open mind to new ideas.

In 1942 his wife suffered from bleeding gums and the local dentist suggested removing all of her teeth. Klenner justifiably considered this a Draconian solution. He recalled research that vitamin C had cured this problem in chimpanzees. Klenner gave his wife several injections of vitamin C. Her bleeding stopped.

Lovely. So apparently a dentist misdiagnosed scurvy. Or something. But this was only the start. Like all quacks with delusions of grandeur, for Klenner curing something as prosaic as bleeding gums wasn’t enough (although I must admit that removing all the teeth seems a rather radical treatment for bleeding gums). Too boring. Too…unimportant. Klenner moved on to viral pneumonia, allegedly curing a patient who was “near death” from the disease. But even that wasn’t enough. Oh, no. Klenner then went on to cure…polio! Of course! here’s the account:

During the polio epidemic of 1948, Dr. Klenner was placed in charge of 60 polio patients. He decided to prescribe large injections of vitamin C. None of his patients developed paralysis.

In 1949, Klenner related his findings at the Annual Meeting of the American Medical Association, and asked doctors to comment. One authority on polio ignored his monumental finding, instead promoting the need for tracheotomy in polio patients. Other polio specialists commented, but none referred to the use of vitamin C. It is almost unbelievable that this happened.

Has anyone ever noticed how quack claims are so difficult to track down. Many of them tend to involve events that happened many decades ago that have, over the many retellings, evolved into legends. Think Max Gerson and his “50 cases.” Think Cantron/Entelev/Procell. The list goes on.

A search for Klenner and his polio “cure” yields hits that nearly all come from pro-quackery sites, such as Whale.to and Orthomolecular.org. There’s also a chapter in a free book in which he describes his beliefs and evidence that vitamin C can cure polio. It is basically identical to this publication, represented as his actual presentation to the AMA in 1949. One aspect of his treatment that amazed me was that this was some truly high dose vitamin C. I mean, seriously. Klenner administered 2,000 mg (that’s 2 g, people) of ascorbate every six hours (8 g/day) supplemented with 1,000 to 2,000 mg by mouth every two hours (that’s 12 to 24 g). So basically, Klenner treated polio with 20 to 32 g per day of ascorbate. for the prototypical 70 kg man used in medical school as a teaching reference for drug doses, that’s nearly half a gram per kg body weight. In the Wikipedia entry on Klenner, which is remarkably skepticism-free, he is described as having administered up to 300,000 mg (300 g!) of ascorbate per day. For those who aren’t scientists in the US and therefore might be metric system-challenged, that’s 0.66 lb of ascorbate.

A search of Pubmed on F. R. Klenner reveals five publications, ranging from 1948 to 1952, all of them in the same journal, which doesn’t appear to be a particularly prominent journal, and unfortunately no abstracts available for any of them. (Whatever his other publications, I’m guessing, they must not be indexed in PubMed.) A review of the titles of the articles match the titles of chapters in a book, Injectable Vitamin C: Effective Treatment for Viral and Other Diseases. It includes titles such as: The Vitamin and Massage Treatment for Acute Poliomyelitis and Massive Doses of Vitamin C and the Virus Diseases, among others, all with the same theme, namely that massive doses of vitamin C will cure pretty much any viral disease that ails you. The other theme running through this is that there are no clinical trials. All there are are case reports and case series, all uncontrolled.

The biggest of these is the 60 patients with polio whom Klenner allegedly cured with his massive doses of vitamin C. Given how long ago this is and how little detail was given, coupled with the lack of any control group, we have no way of knowing whether his combined intravenous/oral vitamin C regimen did anything whatsoever. In any case, it’s not hard to figure out the reason why we don’t use megadose vitamin C for polio or other viral diseases now. In the case of polio, publications about vitamin C and polio petered out over the next couple of decades, at least as far as a search of PubMed indicates. In any case, in a review article about the use of megadose vitamin C in “complementary and alternative medicine” (CAM), it is noted:

Soon after its discovery and synthesis in 1932, parenteral vitamin C was shown to significantly decrease polio virus infections in primates [31], [32]. Although these findings were not repeatable [33], [34], one practitioner treated thousands of patients with parenteral vitamin C, primarily for infections, and popularized its use [2], [3], [5]. Such reports probably were a basis for continued use of parenteral vitamin C by other CAM practitioners [6], [7], [35].

The abstract of one of these early positive papers is particularly amusing to read:

The experimental evidence presented in this paper shows that multiple paralytic doses of poliomyelitis virus, when mixed with very small amounts of crystalline vitamin C (ascorbic acid), are rendered non-infectious as determined by intracerebral injection of such mixtures into rhesus monkeys.

In other words, crystalline ascorbic acid rendered viruses noninfectious? Who knew? Actually, what was done in this paper was to mix 0.1 ml of the supernatant of a 10 per cent poliomyelitis cord suspension (basically, they ground up spinal cords of monkeys with polio, centrifuged the, and used the supernatant containing the virus) with varying amounts of ascorbate neutralized to pH 6.6 to 6.8. This mixture was then injected intracerebrally. This mixture, with varying amounts of ascorbate, was then injected intracerebrally into rhesus monkey brains and the results checked. My guess here is that the virus was inactivated because the concentration of vitamin C in the actual mixture injected was very high (up to 100 mg/ml), and the virus/vitamin C mixtures were incubated overnight at 37° C. In other words, this study really didn’t tell us much.

It should also be noted that, contrary to Klenner’s claims, high dose vitamin C can indeed cause complications, such as oxalate nephropathy. In any case, Klenner became one of the “originators” of the quackery known as orthomolecular medicine, which has been discussed here many times and was popularized in the 1970s by Linus Pauling with his use of high dose vitamin C to treat the common cold and cancer. The central dogma of orthomolecular medicine seems to be that if some nutrient is good, megadoses of that nutrient are much better and can cure anything. Orthomolecular medicine has also been “integrated” into the quackery known as functional medicine.

That’s why it’s so depressing to see Dr. Gifford-Jones conclude:

What is appalling is that researchers and doctors should know that vitamin C has cured viral diseases like Yellow Fever, Crimean Congo Hemorrhagic Fever Dengue Fever and other viral diseases. But no expert has mentioned the possibility of using large doses of vitamin C to cure Ebola infection.

Klenner and Dr. Robert F Cathcart, an expert in viral diseases, have stressed that it’s the proper dosage that cures all viral diseases. This means giving massive doses of both oral and intravenous vitamin C. Cathcart estimates it would take 240,000 milligrams every 24 hours to beat the Ebola virus.

No. Cathcart was not an expert in infectious disease. He was an orthopedic surgeon who turned to the dark side of orthomolecular medicine and who now has his own page of praise on Whale.to. Vitamin C does not “cure all viral diseases” if only you give a dose high enough. And the Windsor Star should be ashamed for publishing this tripe, even on its blog.

Comments

  1. #1 Tim
    September 5, 2014

    @ORAC
    Re: Colloidal silver

    should probably read nano silver.

    The FDA recognizes ‘colloidal silver’ as a supplement. The beef EPA has been given over nano silver is the particle size and if it will self replicate and consume the planet.

  2. #2 Orac
    September 5, 2014

    A distinction without a real difference, as far as I’m concerned. It’s all silver in a suspension, the only difference being size, and it’s all quackery. Silver’s antimicrobial properties are only evident on topical application because the concentrations needed are too high to be demonstrated when taken internally. Not that that stops the Nanosilver quacks from saying:

    Because of the small size of the particles, the total surface area of the silver exposed in solution is maximized, resulting in the highest possible effect per unit of silver. As a result, the 20 PPM concentration of silver in Nano-Silver provides more effectiveness inside the body than silver solutions in the colloidal class, of many times greater concentration.

    Another characteristic of Nano-Silver which amplifies its effectiveness inside the body above that of common colloidal silver products is the high percentage of silver in particulate (metallic) form. This relationship is key because ionic silver becomes silver chloride in the stomach or bloodstream. Silver chloride is only slightly soluble and far less effective than metallic or ionic silver. Were it not for this chemical reaction, ions would be preferable to metallic particles as they are in vitro. Only metallic particles survive the hydrochloric acid of the stomach to remain effective inside the bloodstream and body tissue. Most colloidal silver solutions are no more than 5-10% particles with the remainder in the form of ions.

    Combining high particulate concentration with ultra small particle size results in a silver solution which is without peer

    (From: http://www.nano-silver.com)

    Let’s just put it this way. “Nano-silver” is the latest quack rebranding of colloidal silver. Same old wine in a new skin, as they say.

    But, hey, if you want to be pedantic, go right ahead. Just realize what Orac thinks of pedants. (Just ask around.)

  3. #3 Tim
    September 5, 2014

    Then, if it’s already FDA approved as a supplement why was it blocked (quackery, or not) and an <untested ZMapp used on a couple of Americans. Is it just that the US is so liberal in allowing the use of an untested treatment on/in humans??

    Aug 18, 2014
    Ebola: FG withdraws approval of Nano Silva for treatment

    Chukwu made this known when he received the U.S Ambassador to Nigeria…The experimental drug, Nano Silver did not meet the requirements of the National Health Research Ethics Code.

    http://dailypost.ng/2014/08/18/ebola-fg-withdraws-approval-nano-silva-treatment/

    Where is the harm in allowing the dying to sprinkle a little quack upon their last meals??

  4. #4 Orac
    September 5, 2014

    This post is not primarily about silver, nano or colloidal. It is about high dose vitamin C. Got it? I get very irritated when pedants try to hijack a thread right out of the box.

  5. #5 Tim
    September 5, 2014

    Got it. Sorry.
    ———————————-

  6. #6 Eric Lund
    September 5, 2014

    vitamin C has cured viral diseases like Yellow Fever, Crimean Congo Hemorrhagic Fever Dengue Fever and other viral diseases

    [citation needed]

    Dr. Gifford-Jones, or Clifford-Jones, or whatever (s)he is calling him(her)self, needs to get a clue. Before doctors will recommend a treatment of this sort for Ebola, they will want some assurance that it actually works. Expansive claims that vitamin C will actually do something about generic viral infections do not constitute assurance, no matter how widespread those claims are. Show us some refereed papers that supposedly support these claims, and we might take the claims seriously enough to check whether the papers actually do support the claims.

    The folks running the Windsor Star are laymen, so they may not know better. Are medical licensing authorities in Ontario, or Canada generally, any better about disciplining quacks than their US counterparts? Because those are the people who should be policing their ranks.

  7. #7 Calli Arcale
    http://fractalwonder.wordpress.com
    September 5, 2014

    Tim — because the FDA doesn’t really have much power to regulate supplements, that’s why. You can thank legislators in the 90s, though there is a grand old tradition of quackery in the US that goes way back.

    Vitamin C megadosing is another good example of this. It’s quackery. It’s nonsense. But the FDA can’t really do anything about it. It’s not like Vitamin C is *bad* for you; the worst side effect is generally a lightening of the wallet, since the body is very good at dumping surplus vitamin C, and certainly there are valid indications for using it. Scurvy is a terrible disease that is very easily treated with vitamin C, so it certainly must remain on the market. Though rare, scurvy does occur from time to time in our modern society, generally in people with a lousy diet. I mean *really* lousy, like nothing but ramen noodles or rice. Vitamin C is ridiculously easy to get via the diet, which is of course precisely why it took so long for the problem to be identified. The fact that vitamin studies were being done primarily on pigeons, which don’t suffer scurvy, didn’t help.

    I’m sure when they found when the specific chemical was isolated and shown to not only prevent but even reverse scurvy, it must have seemed almost magical. I can excuse doctors in those early days for getting over-enthusiastic about its properties. But it’s been a long time since then. More than enough time for the other possibilities to play out and reveal themselves to be just pipe dreams. It amazes me that it still grabs even some professionals today.

  8. #8 Mark Thorson
    September 5, 2014

    Ebola attacks the vascular endothelium, which causes the blood vessels to leak, which in turn causes the problems characteristic of this disease. Vitamin C has been shown to reverse endothelial dysfunction in several in vivo studies. Even though endothelial dysfunction and having your endothelium attacked by Ebola are two different things, it seems reasonable to try vitamin C against Ebola. Certainly, the risk is very low (unless you’re using the insanely high doses Klenner did). 5-methyltetrahydrofolate (the form of folate in vegetables) also has been demonstrated to reverse endothelial dysfunction in vivo, so that also seems like something worth trying which has very low risk. They’re just vitamins, and there is at least some basis for suggesting they might be useful. About half of the people who get Ebola survive, and these vitamins may have something to do with that.

  9. #9 usethebrainsgodgiveyou
    Near Atlanta
    September 5, 2014

    “Currently, Canada and other nations are scrambling to send untested drugs and vaccines to West Africa” Smart move if it should leave it’s confines. Serious science, but also a human laboratory

  10. #10 Jenora Feuer
    September 5, 2014

    The fact that vitamin studies were being done primarily on pigeons, which don’t suffer scurvy, didn’t help.

    Aren’t guinea pigs something like the only non-primate animal to suffer from scurvy due to inability to create their own vitamin C? Most animals manage to create their own vitamin C just fine.

    *checks Wikipedia*

    Okay, guinea pigs and capybaras (and possibly all other Cavis); bats; only one of the two major suborders of primates; and apparently some freshwater ray-finned fishes. Interestingly, they’ve found the non-functioning gene that would otherwise normally produce vitamin C in humans.

    Of course, part of the problem with scurvy and made it so difficult to track down is that humans are very good at recycling vitamin C in the body, with the result that you don’t start seeing symptoms until weeks after intake of vitamin C stops. Which is another reason why megadoses are not necessarily useful: the only reason you would need more is because the body is dumping all the excess at that point.

  11. #11 jotter
    Berkely, CA
    September 5, 2014

    Although much you’ve said rings true, and I’m no advocate of untested treatments, there is a danger of mistakenly discarding a useful therapeutic measure through “guilt by association” rather than review of the facts.

    It has recently been established that high dose parenteral ascorbate does enhance chemosensitivity of ovarian cancer and reduce toxicity of chemotherapy (Ma et al Sci Transl Med 5 February 2014: 6: 222, 222ra18; stm.sciencemag.org).

    The mechanism is thought to be due to increasing tissue concentrations of ascorbate to the millimolar range, with consequent production of hydrogen peroxide, the ultimate agent that kills tumor cells.

    These authors point out that the improper comingling of results from oral and parenteral administration of ascorbate seem largely responsible for the rejection of the “vitamin C hypothesis”.

    Could local H2O2 from parentaral ascorbate also prove antiviral? Given the size of the threat from ebola, the general safety of parenteral ascorbate, and the large number of infected patients, it would seem imprudent not to test it and make the results available to all. Even a smalll effect might prove beneficial, even life saving, in supportive care of infected patients.

    Thanks for your ongoing efforts in seperating truth from truthiness.

  12. #12 Andreas Johansson
    September 5, 2014

    An aquaintance who takes C vitamin supplements recently remarked on the oddity that they contain 1250% of RDI per pill – shouldn’t it be more like 100%? I remarked that he doubtlessly gets 100+% of RDI before any supplements, but I rather doubt he’ll quit.

    I note incidentally that the FDA recommended maximum daily intake is 2000 mg, or 3333% percent of RDI.

  13. #13 Orac
    September 5, 2014

    @jotter:

    Not quite. That study does not show what you think it shows.

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/02/10/vitamin-c-for-cancer-trying-to-rise-from-the-grave-once-again/

    Seriously, any study you can throw at me, there’s at least an 80% chance I’ve looked at it in detail before. Maybe a 90% chance.

  14. #14 Rich Woods
    September 5, 2014

    But no expert has mentioned the possibility of using large doses of vitamin C to cure Ebola infection.

    I think there’s an important clue in the third word.

  15. #15 Mark Thorson
    September 5, 2014

    You can’t absorb more than about half a gram of vitamin C into the bloodstream via the oral route. See:

    http://www.pnas.org/content/93/8/3704.full.pdf

    The rest gets metabolized to oxalate, which raises the risk of developing a kidney stone. If you want a higher level of vitamin C in the bloodstream, you have to get it intravenously.

  16. #16 Narad
    September 5, 2014

    Please pardon me for a moment.

    Then, if it’s already FDA approved as a supplement

    It’s not.

  17. #17 LW
    September 5, 2014

    “The beef EPA has been given over nano silver is the particle size and if it will self replicate and consume the planet.”

    The element silver can self-replicate?

  18. #18 KayMarie
    September 5, 2014

    ” Though rare, scurvy does occur from time to time in our modern society, generally in people with a lousy diet. I mean *really* lousy, like nothing but ramen noodles or rice.”

    Oh it doesn’t have to be quite that lousy, but does need to scrupulously avoid all fruits and veggies. If you are willing to limit your diet to a very small portion of the McDonald’s menu you can cause scurvy in about 6 months even if some people consider ketchup a vegetable.

    We had a kid do that his freshman year of college. Took the student services a fair while to figure out what was wrong with him as even the most ardent of ramen noodle only eaters you expect at an institution of higher learning usually slip up and drink a glass of OJ often enough to prevent scurvy.

  19. #19 Tim
    September 5, 2014

    @Narad

    Colloidal silver can cause serious side effects. The most common is argyria, a bluish-gray discoloration of the skin, which is usually not treatable or reversible.

    I always knew Intel (blue man group) was sick–
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=azOE3S_pYGg

  20. #20 Kiiri
    September 5, 2014

    That’s a lot of ramen KayMarie. I really wish these people would stop with the nonsense. Please. You are only causing suffering to people who live in suffering. To have the arrogance to say you know a cure for Ebola (which isn’t) and berate people for not using it is totally shamless.

  21. #21 EBMOD
    September 5, 2014

    Someone needs to create and fund a corollary to the Randi prize, where we call quacks on their bluff.

    It would be great to call Dr Gifford-Jones up and offer a roundtrip airline ticket to Sierra Leone with a couple of 5 gallon buckets of vitamin C and let her have at it. An all expense paid trip where they would have a free platform to wow the world with their proprietary knowledge.

    Willing to bet many excuses would be given and Dr Gifford-Jones would remain firmly planted on the North American continent.

  22. #22 Gemman Aster
    September 5, 2014

    Lets just assume this dude’s fairy god-mother granted his wish and he was somehow allowed total control of an ebola victim’s medication and treatment. Seriously; what would he do when, despite practically force feeding the the Vitamin C his erstwhile patient still died. In that moment of corrupted silence, when all the arrogance of ignorance and misplaced self-belief fell away – what would he do?

    Would he accept he was wrong? Somehow I doubt it.

    Somehow I doubt even if some billionaire totally funded his mission to bring the ascorbate gospel to the suffering in Africa he would even go. Not until a suspiciously NON-Vitamin C vaccination become available.

  23. #23 Tim
    September 5, 2014

    The rest gets metabolized to oxalate, which raises the risk of developing a kidney stone

    I *think*, Mark Thorson, that this effect may be mitigated somewhat by ingesting roughly a tblspoon of sodium bicarbonate a day…

    Though, in the interest of full disclosure, I also thought Jannis Joplin was female.

  24. #24 Tim
    September 5, 2014

    @Gemman Aster #21

    This topic was addressed in a Dr. House episode, S04 ep06: “Whatever it takes” where a guy faked polio with thallium and treated with vita C after removing the thallium — for research funding, or some such shit…

  25. #25 Lawrence
    September 5, 2014

    Has anyone suspected that “Tim” is out former Cannabis Troll?

  26. #26 Tim
    September 5, 2014

    Lawrence,

    Quite. You got it. Dead on. Bingo. go fuck yourself.

  27. #27 Lawrence
    September 5, 2014

    @Tim – I seem to have that effect on a lot of nasty trolls…..glad I’ve managed to get under your skin with such a simple post.

  28. #28 Narad
    September 5, 2014

    This topic was addressed in a Dr. House episode, S04 ep06: “Whatever it takes” where a guy faked polio with thallium and treated with vita C after removing the thallium — for research funding, or some such shit…

    You know, I hand you something on a silver platter and you still manage to completely screw it up.

  29. #29 Tim
    September 5, 2014

    It’s all good, Lawrence. *grins*

  30. #30 Chris Hickie
    September 5, 2014

    Meanwhile, I’m left feeling the WHO is throwing scientific caution to the wind when it says to now use the blood of Ebola survivors to treat those with Ebola. http://tucson.com/news/science/health-med-fit/who-use-ebola-survivors-blood-to-treat-patients/article_2a93ae48-40a9-5d78-9015-ceb3a769600b.html

  31. #31 Rich Woods
    September 5, 2014

    @LW #17:

    The element silver can self-replicate?

    In some circumstances, yes.

  32. #32 KayMarie
    September 5, 2014

    So you don’t believe that survivors have antibodies to Ebola?

    Using the antibodies of survivors isn’t a new never done before idea.

  33. #33 Bobo
    September 6, 2014

    “Mark Thorson

    September 5, 2014
    You can’t absorb more than about half a gram of vitamin C into the bloodstream via the oral route. See:

    http://www.pnas.org/content/93/8/3704.full.pdf

    The rest gets metabolized to oxalate, which raises the risk of developing a kidney stone. If you want a higher level of vitamin C in the bloodstream, you have to get it intravenously.”

    Read these 4 items: http://www.mv.helsinki.fi/home/hemila/safety/

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8126804

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9429689

    https://www.academia.edu/1274864/Pharmacokinetics_of_vitamin_C_insights_into_the_oral_and_intravenous_administration_of_ascorbate

  34. #34 Bobo
    September 6, 2014

    Regarding the other typical safety objections, not directly related to this (a safety objection would be interference with chemotherapy – purportedly it is unsafe for cancer patients in that regard, but that claim is refutable), see the following three items in succession:

    http://m.cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/69/22/8830.1.long
    then see particularly this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21402145
    And see this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22021693

    The cure claims may be overblown based on current evidence, but the concerns about safety are based on fantasy. The review quoted in this blog stated that in general, “high dose intravenous vitamin C appears to be remarkably safe.”: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0011414#pone-0011414-g002

    I have no desire to get into a debate on this, and will not be returning to this discussion. I see no reason why anybody would object to anything I presented, or see it as anything other than positive news.

  35. #35 usethebrainsgodgiveyou
    September 6, 2014

    Riddle me this, Orac man…nothing to do with ebola, but PBS special on vaccines supposedly says only one in one million kids are harmed by vaccines. That’s a bullshit sundae with cat crap cream on top! Beings as 3,000+ has successfully sued the gov’t through NVICP, that means we have 3 billion kids in America.

    Aw, swweeeet Jesus, the stupid we are expected to swallow burns,burns.

  36. #36 Chris Hickie
    September 6, 2014

    @ Kaymarie #32–Agreed, it’s not a new idea, and it’s been done before. However, as noted in the article cited

    “Blood transfusions are done in many African countries so this should really not be a problem,” said Oyewale Tomori, a professor of virology at Redeemer’s University in Nigeria, who participated in the meeting. He noted that survivor’s blood was first used to treat Ebola patients in a 1995 outbreak in rural conditions.

    “Conceptually, this makes sense,” said Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, from Washington. “Can it be pulled off? We don’t know.”

    He said the blood from survivors would have to be screened for HIV, malaria and other diseases before being used as a treatment.

    That’s something we can take for granted here, but not so easy to be sure of in many parts of Africa.

  37. #37 usethebrainsgodgiveyou
    September 6, 2014

    The number HAS to come from the qualified or “compensible” awards paid through VAERS. If one takes the number of babies born per year (~4,000,000) and multiplies them by the number of years the program has been in effect–26, and then I just multiplied the present number of vaccines per child over 18 years, which I heard was sum total 55…and you divide it by the 3535 kids who have been compensated by VAERS or NVICP or whatever it is, you get 1 in 1,618,104. Because I used the present total # of vaccines (55) this has to be high. I can’t find the sums by year. At first I think the lifetime was like 25 o so. I had never even heard, as most people, of the Vaccine Injury program until my son was 7 years old, 4 years too late to sue! That’s just a mess, if you ask me. No wonder it’s the “ejukated” people who call B.S. They are the only ones who’ve even heard of the NVICP. I think they need to change their emphasis….instead of cynically depending on ignorance and putting out false memes….”One in a million…” why in the hell don’t they just say you are taking a much greater chance by not vaccinating. That just tics me off. (Sorry, cynical…)

    It’s like the BS I heard here (or somewhere) that Offit didn’t say 10 000 vaccines (“…then each infant would have the theoretical capacity to
    respond to about 10 000 vaccines at any one time” https://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/overwhelm.pdf

    I’m dumber than shinola, and I can figure it out. But there is a knee jerk reaction, and it has always been so, even 40 years ago, that only crazy people blamed vaccines. I don’t think that is true. And I think the CDC is being deceptive, for good reason…but still, being deceptive. We can’t handle the truth that some children are hurt for the greater good. So instead, some belittle and distance from people whose children are hurt, using their superior ability to baffle them. But they don’t go away like they should, because they don’t think they are crazy. As the person here who pretty much implied they were probably victims of shadow syndromes of autism…yeah..good science….

    Why do I post here? Because I know you are good people, and have a greater good in mind. But you need something beside your minion’s bobble headed reasoning and superfluous conflagrations (…if those words mean what I think they mean, otherwise, ignore that comment.)

    My ignorance is my secret power. It makes me aware I don’t know everything, and that I am seldom the smartest person in the room….but my Dad, a bartender, had an expression. You can’t bullshit a bullshitter. Maybe that applies.

  38. #38 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    September 6, 2014

    but PBS special on vaccines supposedly says only one in one million kids are harmed by vaccines. … Beings as 3,000+ has successfully sued the gov’t through NVICP, that means we have 3 billion kids in America.

    If both statements are true (and I cannot attest to that or deny it) then that says that they are measuring different things even though they appear related. Speculating, the NVICP may compensate for reactions that fall below the threshold used by (the supposed) PBS documentary statement about injury.

  39. #39 Krebiozen
    September 6, 2014

    usethebrainsgodgiveyou,
    I suggest you take your comments about vaccines this to ann on-topic thread, instead of one about vitamin C and ebola. I have a reply, but I don’t want to swamp this thread with it (it’s long).

  40. #40 Dangerous Bacon
    September 6, 2014

    “Why do I post here? Because I know you are good people, and have a greater good in mind.”

    Actually I (and others who post here) have both individual and greater good in mind, which is why we support immunization as an important part of quality evidence-based health care.

  41. #41 herr doktor bimler
    September 6, 2014

    Crimean Congo Hemorrhagic Fever
    I cannot find the Crimean Congo on Google Map.

    Klenner was a virtually unknown family doctor, in a small North Carolina town. He had no training in virology, no research grants and no experimental laboratory. [...]
    During the polio epidemic of 1948, Dr. Klenner was placed in charge of 60 polio patients.

    “Basic plausibility” was not an issue for Cathcart when he was making this story up.

  42. #42 The Grouchybeast
    September 6, 2014

    @herr doktor bimler

    It should be hyphenated: Crimean-Congo Hemorrhagic Fever. Despite the weird name, it is a real thing.

  43. #43 Tim
    September 6, 2014

    @Narad #28

    Gaww. Sorry. Was it because of the spoiler I dropped??

    He gave her thallium to mimic the symptoms, faked her labs, then stopped the thallium so it looked like the Vitamin C therapy worked. Frat Guy tries to defend himself to the team, but they all look away.

    http://politedissent.com/archives/1800

    Ohh. There is a main episode about Polio, isn’t there? I keep getting my ass handed to me here… But it is a nice ass, if I do say so myself. :)

  44. #44 herr doktor bimler
    September 6, 2014

    Thanks, Grouchybeast. I have learned something new today.

  45. #45 Tim
    September 6, 2014

    I unknowingly yet stupidly conflated. I feel so like that wouldn’t have happened if I had my cannabis.

  46. #46 The Grouchybeast
    September 6, 2014

    @herr doktor bimler

    Let’s hope it never becomes critical information for you :-) Although if you do ever get bitten by an infected tick, just have some lemonade and sour candies and I’m sure that hemorrhaging will clear right up.

  47. #47 Chris
    September 6, 2014

    usethebrainsgodgiveyou: “The number HAS to come from the qualified or “compensible” awards paid through VAERS.”

    While you are looking for a more appropriate thread to post this on, just click on this table. Then go to the bottom, and take the total number of vaccines given since 2006 and divide it by the total number of claims since 2006. Also, read the definitions below the table.

  48. #48 usethebrainsgodgiveyou
    September 6, 2014

    Okay, Chris…you win that one.

    Of those that went through legal channels, one in 1,500,000 were purported to be harmed. I have no proof, but I’d bet most people, with the exception of skeptics and anti-vaccinationists have never even heard of VAERS.

  49. #49 Lawrence
    September 6, 2014

    VAERS & the NVICP are mentioned, specifically, on every single vaccine information sheet that doctors are required to give to parents and go over them (if they have any questions) before any vaccines are given.

    To claim ignorance is foolish.

  50. #50 usethebrainsgodgiveyou
    September 6, 2014

    Who reads those things? We trust our doctors to do what’s right. Most of us just accept shit happens and move on, and aren’t out to sue anyone. Do you know doctors who are regarded as kind by their patients are unlikely to sue, even if they have been wronged. To call people fools is not kind.

  51. #51 usethebrainsgodgiveyou
    September 6, 2014

    I meant to say, doctors whose patients see them as kind are unlikely to be sued. Not everyone has a litigious mind.

  52. #52 Lawrence
    September 6, 2014

    VAERS & the NVICP are there specifically to handle issues of vaccine reaction…it has nothing to do about being sued (since the Doctors cannot be for a serious vaccine reaction).

  53. #53 Krebiozen
    September 6, 2014

    usethebrains…

    Okay, Chris…you win that one.

    What, no apology for the accusations of “bullshit sundae with cat crap cream on top”, “burning stupidity” and “bobbleheaded reasoning”? It looks like your ignorance isn’t such a great secret power after all. I think you need another secret power, perhaps the power to understand and assess evidence before making foolish accusations and spreading misinformation that threatens public health.

    Of those that went through legal channels, one in 1,500,000 were purported to be harmed.

    Since the Vaccine Court table injuries can undoubtedly have causes other than vaccination, it is certain that some of the injuries compensated by the Vaccine Court were not caused by vaccination. A Table Injury within the timescale is presumed to be caused by vaccination, as I understand it (unless there is some other obvious cause). That means that these numbers are not a good way of estimating the frequency of vaccine injuries. The CDC says:

    More serious adverse events occur rarely (on the order of one per thousands to one per millions of doses), and some are so rare that risk cannot be accurately assessed.

    Bear in mind that anaphylactic shock is included in those figures, and there is no way of preventing some people from having allergic reactions to vaccine components.

    I don’t understand your accusations that skeptics and the CDC deny vaccine injuries and ridicule those that suffer them. Yet in the same breath you talk about the Vaccine Court which has compensated thousands of people, and which I and other skeptics wholeheartedly support.

    The Vaccine Court compensates for vaccine injuries that there is good (or even moderate) evidence for. Autism (ADHD, MS, allergies, asthma etc etc) is not included because the evidence tells us it isn’t caused by vaccines. Those who persist in spreading,lies about vaccines after their errors have been pointed out deserve ridicule and scorn, in my opinion. They are threatening public health – do you want to see hundreds of children hospitalized with measles, with encephalitis, pneumonia and SSPE as we have had in Europe? That is what will happen if MMR uptake falls. There will be deaths, as there have been in Europe, yet there hasn’t been a single confirmed death caused by vaccines for several decades, to my knowledge.
    Also IMO, parents of disabled children deserve support from society, whatever the cause of that disability.

  54. #54 usethebrainsgodgiveyou
    September 6, 2014

    Because I say some kids are harmed….thousands are going to die. Wow….I am more powerful than I thought.

    One in a million is still bullshit. It’s a cynical meme that has no basis in reality.

  55. #55 Lawrence
    September 7, 2014

    @UseBrains – you really aren’t “using the brains god gave you” are you?

    As Chris pointed over, over 2 Billion (probably closer to 3 Billion now) doses of vaccines have been given in the United States – less than 4000 individuals have been compensated for vaccine injury & the way the system is set up, it is likely that a number of these people did not actually have a reaction to a vaccine – but still qualified under the established table injuries.

    Vaccines are one of the most heavily regulated, tested and tracked medical treatments on the planet – so unless you buy into the Global Conspiracy Theory, your suppositions are not logical or rational.

  56. #56 Gemman Aster
    September 7, 2014

    I dare say it is more a case of one ‘injury’ per one million administrations of vaccine, not per child who has had vaccines. As opposed to three hundred thousand DEATHS per million cases of smallpox major… I’ll buy that for a dollar (pound) ANY day of the week!

    But seriously – posting this after Orac has very harshly slapped down one dude for going off topic just a few posts above… You’re not using your deity’s granted brains either you know!

  57. #57 Krebiozen
    September 7, 2014

    usethebrainsgodgaveyou,

    Because I say some kids are harmed….thousands are going to die. Wow….I am more powerful than I thought.

    Not just you, but if you carry on spreading lies about vaccines, some people will believe you, and if enough people stop vaccinating the diseases they could have protected against will come back. As I have related here before my son spent weeks in the hospital fighting for breath as a direct result of people believing antivaccine lies.

    Don’t you care about the children that will suffer and die if your lies are believed?

    BTW, where did I say thousands will die? Hopefully people in the US will come to their sense as soon as the first hospitalizations and serious sequelae start appearing, as they did in Europe.

    One in a million is still bullshit. It’s a cynical meme that has no basis in reality.

    Yet you have no evidence at all to support this claim. You just don’t want to believe it because you have already made up your mind. You can’t assume the cases compensated by the Vaccine Court are real cases of vaccine damage and work your way back from that. That’s as ridiculous as claiming the fact thimerosal was removed from most vaccines is evidence thimerosal is dangerous.

    You might find this paper interesting/ It presents compelling evidence that vaccine encephalopathy, a Vaccine Court table injury, is a myth, and that genetic mutation in a sodium channel or mitochondrial disorders are the cause of the seizures and regression seen in some children. Vaccination is recommended in such children, by the way.

    Here are the actual risks attributed to each vaccine on the childhood schedule by the CDC based on solid evidence. Please explain which of these risks estimates are wrong, and provide evidence to support your claim.

    DTaP vaccine side-effects
    Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses) Several other severe problems have been reported after DTaP vaccine. These include:
    Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
    Permanent brain damage.
    These are so rare it is hard to tell if they are caused by the vaccine.

    Hepatitis A vaccine side-effects
    serious allergic reaction, within a few minutes to a few hours after the shot (very rare).

    Hepatitis B vaccine side-effects
    Severe problems are extremely rare. Severe allergic reactions are believed to occur about once in 1.1 million doses.

    Hib vaccine side-effects
    No severe side-effects other than problems that could happen after any vaccine:such as fainting, local pain, and severe allergic reactions estimated at less than 1 in a million doses.

    HPV–Cervarix vaccine side-effects
    The HPV Cervarix® vaccine has been in use around the world for several years and has been very safe. There is no good evidence to suggest any serious side-effects apart from those possible with any vaccine.

    HPV–Gardasil vaccine side-effects
    The HPV-Gardasil® vaccine has been used in the U.S. and around the world for about six years and has been very safe. There is no good evidence to suggest any serious side-effects apart from those possible with any vaccine.

    Influenza (inactivated) vaccine side-effects
    There is no good evidence to suggest any serious side-effects apart from those possible with any vaccine.
    One brand of inactivated flu vaccine, called Afluria, should not be given to children 8 years of age or younger, except in special circumstances. A related vaccine was associated with fevers and fever-related seizures in young children in Australia. Your doctor can give you more information.

    Influenza (live) vaccine side-effects
    There is no good evidence to suggest any serious side-effects apart from those possible with any vaccine.

    MMR vaccine side-effects
    Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses)
    Several other severe problems have been reported after a child gets MMR vaccine, including:
    Deafness
    Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
    Permanent brain damage
    These are so rare that it is hard to tell whether they are caused by the vaccine.

    MMRV vaccine side-effects
    Seizure caused by fever (about 1 child in 1,250 who get MMRV), usually 5-12 days after the first dose. They happen less often when MMR and varicella vaccines are given at the same visit as separate shots (about 1 child in 2,500 who get these two vaccines), and rarely after a 2nd dose of MMRV.
    Temporary low platelet count, which can cause a bleeding disorder (about 1 child out of 40,000).
    Several severe problems have been reported following MMR vaccine, and might also happen after MMRV. These include severe allergic reactions (fewer than 4 per million), and problems such as:
    Deafness.
    Long-term seizures, coma, lowered consciousness.
    Permanent brain damage.
    Because these problems occur so rarely, we can’t be sure whether they are caused by the vaccine or not.

    Meningococcal vaccine side-effects
    Serious allergic reactions, within a few minutes to a few hours of the shot, are very rare.

    PCV13 Pneumococcal Conjugate Vaccine side-effects
    Life-threatening allergic reactions from any vaccine are very rare.

    PPSV23 Pneumococcal Polysaccharide vaccine side-effects
    Less than 1 percent develop a fever, muscle aches, or more severe local reactions. A vaccine, like any medicine, could cause a serious reaction. But the risk of a vaccine causing serious harm, or death, is extremely small.

    IPV Polio vaccine side-effects
    The vaccine used today has never been known to cause any serious problems, and most people don’t have any problems at all with it.

    Rotavirus vaccine side-effects
    There is also a small risk of intussusception from rotavirus vaccination, usually within a week after the 1st or 2nd vaccine dose. This additional risk is estimated to range from about 1 in 20,000 US infants to 1 in 100,000 US infants who get rotavirus vaccine. Your doctor can give you more information.

    The outlook for intussusception is excellent when treated quickly.

    Shingles (Herpes Zoster) vaccine side-effects
    No serious problems have been identified with shingles vaccine.

    Tdap vaccine (Combined Tetanus, Diphtheria & Pertussis)
    Swelling, severe pain, bleeding and redness in the arm where the shot was given (rare).
    A severe allergic reaction could occur after any vaccine (estimated to occur less than once in a million doses).

    Varicella (Chickenpox) vaccine side-effects
    Seizure (jerking or staring) caused by fever (very rare).
    Pneumonia (very rare)
    Other serious problems, including severe brain reactions and low blood count, have been reported after chickenpox vaccination. These happen so rarely experts cannot tell whether they are caused by the vaccine or not. If they are, it is extremely rare.

  58. #58 Krebiozen
    September 7, 2014

    Comment in moderation giving actual risks of several vaccines according to the CDC. Severe reactions with permanent sequelae are rarer than 1 in a million, or, “so rare it is hard to tell if they are caused by the vaccine”. I would say “impossible” rather than “hard”, as the sample size required to demonstrate causality is too large to be practical in most cases.

  59. #59 Krebiozen
    September 7, 2014

    To be accurate, I should probably say “the sample size required to demonstrate an association is too large to be practical in most cases”.

  60. #60 usethebrainsgodgiveyou
    September 7, 2014

    Kreb, stop with the lack of evidence. Evidence in a court of law, yes….deductive evidence…that is the evidence the 1 in a million person uses. “We only have proof of 4000 people harmed”. In a court of law, that is sufficient, but in the real world, where most of us common people live…nothing is so cynically cut and dried. I’m sorry for you son’s harm. But it may be attributed to many things, not just AV parents. The AMA spanked the members in California who contributed to the Pertussis outbreak for their insistence on making a buck and refusal to lose money on vaccinations. It’s in writing, so litigenously, it’s true.

    I gave you evidence and you called bullshit on it. I pretty much determined, by using my own tiny little brain, that the numbers were taken from successful litigation on VAERS. If you believe those are the only numbers who were harmed….I don’t know what to say.

  61. #61 Chris
    September 7, 2014

    usethebrainsgodgaveyou,

    Can you please provide us the PubMed indexed studies showing the DTaP causes more harm than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis. Again I ask this because my oldest had a seizure due to an actual disease before its vaccine was available.

    Also, can you explain what the NVICP statistics have to do with Ebola and vitamin C?

  62. #62 Krebiozen
    September 7, 2014

    use thebrains….

    Kreb, stop with the lack of evidence.

    Stop complaining you haven’t provided any evidence for the beliefs you have pulled out of thin air?

    Evidence in a court of law, yes….deductive evidence…that is the evidence the 1 in a million person uses. “We only have proof of 4000 people harmed”.

    I don’t understand what you mean by this either. Those risk estimates are each derived from good quality evidence. For example, when 67 million doses of HPV vaccines are administered in the US alone,and the VSD finds the frequency of serious illnesses is the same in people who did or did not receive the vaccine, how can anyone conclude that it is dangerous? But they still do.

    In a court of law, that is sufficient, but in the real world, where most of us common people live…nothing is so cynically cut and dried.

    So how do you decide the truth? By gut feeling?

    I’m sorry for you son’s harm. But it may be attributed to many things, not just AV parents.

    What else could it be attributed to? My son was born with spina bifida and hydrocephalus, so his doctors advised against vaccinating him (probably wrongly, in retrospect). There were hardly any cases of whooping cough in the UK until a study was published linking the pertussis vaccine to neurological complications:

    With sustained adverse publicity, the acceptance rate for pertussis immunisation in England fell from 79% in 1973 to 31% in 1978 and the first of three national epidemics of pertussis occurred from 1977 to 1979. An estimated 5,000 hospital admissions, 200 cases of pneumonia, 83 cases of convulsions and 38 deaths occurred and the illness was often protracted and debilitating, lasting up to 10–12 weeks. In comparison with previous epidemics, the attack rate in children aged under 5 years (in whom coverage was low) was considerably higher. The attack rate was especially high in areas where vaccination uptake was lowest.

    Perhaps my son might have contracted pertussis anyway, but it is very likely it was because of the epidemics that were in turn undoubtedly due to the fall in vaccination uptake (though some nuts argue otherwise, of course).

    The AMA spanked the members in California who contributed to the Pertussis outbreak for their insistence on making a buck and refusal to lose money on vaccinations. It’s in writing, so litigenously, it’s true.

    I have no idea what you are referring to here.

    I gave you evidence and you called bullshit on it.

    What evidence? The successful Vaccine Court cases? Say someone claimed that Fruit Loops caused short stature, and the manufacturers admitted liability, and offered compensation to any child below average height who had eaten Fruit Loops. Would that mean that every child of below average height had been damaged by Fruit Loops? Obviously not.

    I pretty much determined, by using my own tiny little brain, that the numbers were taken from successful litigation on VAERS.

    You really think the CDC used your bassackwards method of risk assessment? Oh dear.

    If you believe those are the only numbers who were harmed….I don’t know what to say.

    That’s because you have no rational basis for your arguments. You are railing against the 1 in a million figure purely because of your own prejudices.

  63. #63 Krebiozen
    September 7, 2014

    Dammit, I forgot to bowdlerize usethebrains’ quoted comments again.

  64. #64 Krebiozen
    September 7, 2014

    Something weird is going on, apologies if this appears twice.

    use thebrains….

    Kreb, stop with the lack of evidence.

    Stop complaining you haven’t provided any evidence for the beliefs you have pulled out of thin air? Why?

    Evidence in a court of law, yes….deductive evidence…that is the evidence the 1 in a million person uses. “We only have proof of 4000 people harmed”.

    I don’t understand what you mean by this either. Those risk estimates are each derived from good quality evidence. For example, when 67 million doses of HPV vaccines are administered in the US alone,and the VSD finds the frequency of serious illnesses is the same in people who did or did not receive the vaccine, how can anyone conclude that it is dangerous? But they still do.

    In a court of law, that is sufficient, but in the real world, where most of us common people live…nothing is so cynically cut and dried.

    So how do you decide the truth? By gut feeling?

    I’m sorry for you son’s harm. But it may be attributed to many things, not just AV parents.

    What else could it be attributed to? My son was born with spina bifida and hydrocephalus, so his doctors advised against vaccinating him (probably wrongly, in retrospect). There were hardly any cases of whooping cough in the UK until a study was published linking the pertussis vaccine to neurological complications:

    With sustained adverse publicity, the acceptance rate for pertussis immunisation in England fell from 79% in 1973 to 31% in 1978 and the first of three national epidemics of pertussis occurred from 1977 to 1979. An estimated 5,000 hospital admissions, 200 cases of pneumonia, 83 cases of convulsions and 38 deaths occurred and the illness was often protracted and debilitating, lasting up to 10–12 weeks. In comparison with previous epidemics, the attack rate in children aged under 5 years (in whom coverage was low) was considerably higher. The attack rate was especially high in areas where vaccination uptake was lowest.

    Perhaps my son might have contracted pertussis anyway, but it is very likely it was because of the epidemics that were in turn undoubtedly due to the fall in vaccination uptake (though some nuts argue otherwise, of course).

    The AMA spanked the members in California who contributed to the Pertussis outbreak for their insistence on making a buck and refusal to lose money on vaccinations. It’s in writing, so litigenously, it’s true.

    I have no idea what you are referring to here.

    I gave you evidence and you called bullsh!t on it.

    What evidence? The successful Vaccine Court cases? Say someone claimed that Fruit Loops caused short stature, and the manufacturers admitted liability, and offered compensation to any child below average height who had eaten Fruit Loops. Would that mean that every child of below average height had been damaged by Fruit Loops? Obviously not.

    I pretty much determined, by using my own tiny little brain, that the numbers were taken from successful litigation on VAERS.

    You really think the CDC used your bassackwards method of risk assessment? Oh dear.

    If you believe those are the only numbers who were harmed….I don’t know what to say.

    That’s because you have no rational basis for your arguments. You are railing against the 1 in a million figure purely because of your own prejudices.

  65. #65 Chris
    September 7, 2014

    Krebiozen: “What evidence? The successful Vaccine Court cases?”

    There is some interesting information in the NVICP statistics tables. If you look at the “Claims Filed and Compensated or Dismissed by Vaccine 1 March 5, 2014″ table, you will see that there have been a total of 1,269 claims compensated just for DTP, out of a total of 3,540 since 1988.

    One that same table it shows a total 170 for DTaP and 69 for DTaP, plus a few smatterings of other variations.

    Now if you go down to the table showing the totals from 2006 on, you will see out of 68,113,573 DTaP doses, there were just 95 compensated claims. (by the way, it is still about one out of 716985 doses, not quite one in a million, but that is why they have three separate compensation columns and definitions under the table)

    There seems to have been a drop in pertussis vaccine claims overall since then. Perhaps it is the change from DTwP to DTaP, or recent research on other genetic reasons for the seizures, etc.

  66. #66 Krebiozen
    September 7, 2014

    Chris,
    Thanks, there’s some interesting information there. Do you think claims of vaccine injury due to DTaP are going out of fashion? As I recall, recent evidence doesn’t seem to show a huge difference in safety between the wP and the aP.
    Do you know if the Vaccine Court changes its criteria based on current science? Do table injuries get reviewed? I see vaccine encephalopathy remains, but the scientific consensus seems to be heading towards thinking it doesn’t exist.
    I bet Narad knows. I could probably Google it, but I haven’t the energy right now.

  67. #67 Chris
    September 7, 2014

    My understanding is that the table injury list has been modified due to recent scientific findings, like Dravet syndrome. As mentioned at SBM on the Bruesewitz v. Wyeth, inc. Supreme Court case:

    In April 1992, when Hannah Bruesewitz received the vaccine that allegedly injured her, her diagnosis “residual seizure disorder” had just been removed from the NVICP vaccine injury table.

  68. #68 usethebrainsgodgiveyou
    September 7, 2014

    http://www.amednews.com/article/20100726/profession/307269956/1/ payment issues.and pertussis

    Now what is wrong with that?

  69. #69 usethebrainsgodgiveyou
    September 7, 2014

    Boosting California’s immunization rates is one goal of proposed state legislation that would require health insurers to pay physicians for the full cost of purchasing, storing and administering immunizations. Proponents say it would enable doctors, particularly those in small practices, to afford the expenses associated with vaccinating patients.

    A similar measure was introduced in 2009 but died in committee due to financial reasons, said Tom Riley, director of government relations for the California Academy of Family Physicians, which co-sponsored the bill. It was crafted before the latest outbreak.

    Some health insurers have spoken out against the legislation. Susan Pisano, a spokeswoman for America’s Health Insurance Plans, said studies indicate that the private sector already provides a fair return for doctor’s vaccine costs.

    But Sumana Reddy, MD, a family physician in a four-doctor practice in Salinas, Calif., disagreed. “We’re trying to do what’s right regardless. … But in addition to not being reimbursed for the time we spend educating parents [and patients] about vaccines, we’re putting money out for the cost of vaccines that isn’t fully reimbursed. … It’s a hopeless proposition.”

  70. #70 usethebrainsgodgiveyou
    September 7, 2014

    Do you really think the only children who have severe reactions have been reimbursed by the VAERS. Do you really believe that?

    Let’s see a show of hands.

  71. #71 Shay
    September 7, 2014

    VAERS doesn’t reimburse anybody. It’s a passive reporting system.

  72. #72 Chris
    September 7, 2014

    VAERS and the NVICP are two separate things, which is explained on every Vaccine Information Sheet. In order to get reaction claims compensated you must actually apply to the NVICP.

    And the payments are to clinics to provide the vaccines, they are being shortchanged by the insurance companies. It has nothing to do with vaccine safety or the NVICP. It does point out that there needs to be more coverage of the Vaccines for Children Program.

    And again: what does this have to do with Ebola and vitamin C?

  73. #73 Gemman Aster
    September 7, 2014

    Come on usethebrains! Think clearly about what you are saying. Forget the vaccine court digression for a moment. You are saying that the supposed pitfalls of vaccination as illustrated there outweigh ALL the potential – and undeniable reality – for good… And that is categorically untrue. Even going from your table; a number in the low single thousands against how many MILLIONS, no, how many BILLIONS of people who will absolutely NOT catch smallpox?

    We are all here only words on the internet and I know nothing about you. However I myself HAVE lived in a world where smallpox existed AND polio and had to endure the constant threat they posed to each and every one of us. Maybe you have as well and can follow me through your own memories. If so then just think. When I was a youngster I could have been playing down the docks with my pals – like I did what felt like every day I was a child – and caught smallpox brought in from some far-off country. Easily. I could have suffered the genuine nightmare of confluent pox of septicemia. It terrified me then even as a dim, relayed and unspeakable fear from the adults around me and the memory, clarified and informed through education terrifies me now even more. Surely it must you as well – even if we disagree on matters I can tell from your posts you are an intelligent and thinking person.

    Yet here we stand. We are already 14 years into the 21st century… Just that fact astonishes me and neither you nor I can possibly catch smallpox. It simply does not exist anymore in the wild. Why? Because of vaccines. We are all safe – all seven billion of us simply and PURELY because of vaccination. All that truly inconceivable, unbearable pain; a lifetime of disfigurement and a better than 1 in 3 chance of not coming out the other side to bear those disfigurements at all.

    Smallpox is a perfect case study because in that one case we have won the war, but other diseases are close to similar eradication. Yet, despite all his sound and pompous fury Wakefield was wrong. He has done nothing good for this world. Nothing. Jenner on the other hand has saved us all from at least one unbearable nightmare and will inevitably go on to do so again and again in the future. THAT is true goodness, true hope, true positivity for the future of mankind.

    Yes, we can quibble on the minutiae of interpreting the vanishingly small number of corner cases, but that misplaced skepticism and suspicion simply cannot weight against, cancel away the fact vaccines have helped us all. Each and every one of us. It is quite possible we are both here, able to type our opinions on to an obscure medicine board in the dusty corners of the internet purely and directly because of vaccines. THAT is the reality and everything else, all the banal arguments and pedantic picking over sometimes willfully misunderstood statistics is nothing in comparison.

  74. #74 Chris
    September 8, 2014

    usethebrainsgodgiveyou: “payment issues.and pertussis

    Now what is wrong with that?”

    Now that I am not rushed trying to deal with chicken on the barbecue, I go back and notice the date on that article: “Posted July 26, 2010″

    Much could have changed since then. Rose, please use a different username.

  75. #75 Chemmomo
    Still off topic
    September 8, 2014

    Chris,

    Much could have changed since then

    you mean like this?
    http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immunize/Documents/PertussisSummaryReport20100630.pdf

    To date (6/30/2010), there have been 1,337 cases of pertussis reported in 2010 for a state rate of 3.4 cases/100,000. This is a 5-fold increase from the number of reported cases during the same time period in 2009 when 258 cases were reported

    Two months later we had hit 2492 cases and 7 deaths, and by the count for the full year 2010 was 9477 and 10 deaths.
    http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immunize/Documents/PertussisReport2011-03-09.pdf

    This year we’re up to 7,980 cases, but only one death

    By the way, my kid got the TDap recently without any repeat of previous issues (and with the pedi’s office on high alert).

  76. #76 Chemmomo
    Avoiding moderation
    September 8, 2014

    Anyone interested in the CA summary reports on pertussis for the past 5 or so years can find them here:

    http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immunize/Pages/PertussisSummaryReports.aspx

  77. #77 lilady
    September 8, 2014

    @ usethebrains: Please stay on topic and post your comments about vaccines on one of the open vaccine threads.

    I left a comment for you, here:

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/09/01/the-cdc-whistleblower-william-w-thompson-one-last-word/#comment-352131

  78. #78 DLC
    A place where citrus fruit falls from the sky.
    September 8, 2014

    Q: what do you get when you spend $100.00 on vitamin supplements ?
    A: Really expensive urine.

  79. #79 Krebiozen
    September 8, 2014

    utbggy,
    I have replied to your questions on the thread lilady linked to.

  80. #80 Calli Arcale
    http://fractalwonder.wordpress.com
    September 8, 2014

    KayMarie:

    Oh it doesn’t have to be quite that lousy, but does need to scrupulously avoid all fruits and veggies. If you are willing to limit your diet to a very small portion of the McDonald’s menu you can cause scurvy in about 6 months even if some people consider ketchup a vegetable.

    Considering that you can actually get vitamin C from their most popular offerings it’d be tough. A medium serving of french fries at McDonald’s gets you 14% of your daily vitamin C. (Potatoes are *awesome*.) I perused their nutritional facts (McDonald’s is one of the few restaurants that offers a full nutritional analysis of all of their menu items), and you’d pretty much have to be eating very small meals favoring items from the dollar menu, and skipping fries consistently, to get scurvy off of it. I did find a few items with no vitamin C:

    BBQ Ranch Burger
    Filet-o-Fish
    all of the crispy snack wraps
    Mac Snack Wrap
    all but one of the McMuffins (Steak & Egg was the exception, with 2% RDA)
    both of the Sausage Biscuit options
    both of the Sausage McGriddle options
    Cinnamon Melts
    Hotcakes
    Sausage & Hotcakes
    Strawberry Go-gurt
    most of the desserts (exceptions: apple pie, strawberry sundae, Fruit & Yogurt Parfait)
    most of the sauces
    all of the beverages that aren’t smoothies, milk, juice, PowerAde or Hi-C

    So breakfast appears to be the worst offender in terms of not getting enough vitamin C. Surprisingly, the best source of Vitamin C there is not the smoothies or the orange juice. The best source is the Hi-C Orange Lavaburst. A medium serving gets you 290% of your RDA, so if you can tolerate the insane sweetness, just having that as your beverage will easily prevent any scurvy. ;-)

  81. #81 usethebrainsgodgiveyou
    September 8, 2014

    Did anyone raise their hand? Have the sum total of all children in the U.S who have been harmed by vaccines been compensated?

  82. #82 gaist
    September 8, 2014

    usethebraingodgiveyou,

    I’ve replied to you here:
    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/09/01/the-cdc-whistleblower-william-w-thompson-one-last-word/

    A more topical discussion where others have tried to direct you as well.

  83. #83 KayMarie
    September 8, 2014

    Yep, that is why they were so surprised. But this kid was avoiding all the veggies his Mom made him eat (including the potato).

    My guess was the only bit of vitamin C was the ketchup on the quarterpounders.

  84. #84 Uselesstwit
    September 8, 2014

    German Aster @73

    That was a truly beautiful response.

  85. #85 Calli Arcale
    http://fractalwonder.wordpress.com
    September 8, 2014

    He wasn’t even eating the fries? Wow. I’ve always thought those things were damn-near an addictive substance. I know I can’t get enough of them. :-D

    But with a picky eater in my family, I can see how it might happen, especially with a college kid on his own for the first time trying to stretch his dollar.

  86. #86 Krebiozen
    September 8, 2014

    I had a friend who managed to get scurvy (lab confirmed); if I recall he mostly ate baked beans on toast, neither of which contain any vitamin C. This may seem odd to some Americans, but it’s a popular British snack.

  87. #87 Krebiozen
    September 8, 2014

    usethebrains… I have also replied on the other thread. Please take the discussion about vaccines there.

  88. #88 TBruce
    September 8, 2014

    Some background on Dr. Gifford-Jones:
    http://ethicalnag.org/2014/02/14/w-gifford-jones-vitamin-c-lysine/
    He’s a retired ObGyn i.e. no special knowledge or training in Tropical Medicine or Infectious Disease.
    He markets his own brand and formulas of supplements, including (surprise, surprise) high-dose Vitamin C.
    He’s 90 years old!

  89. #89 MarkN
    September 8, 2014

    Somewhat related, and maybe even more relevant. The BBC broke a story on a potential ebola vaccine (No, not vitamin C, sorry) having success on 4 Macaques, surviving windows of 5 weeks compared to control of 6 days, with two surviving to 10 months (booster). Human safety trials to begin in multiple locations, hoping the vaccine can be ready for general use by (I believe) November this year. Link to the study:

    http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nm.3702.html

  90. #90 Krubozumo Nyankoye
    September 9, 2014

    Thread successiffully hijacked by idiot who has trouble with tenses. GAVE.

    The truly daunting and immense problem of this Ebola epidemic in West Africa is the extent of the poverty and ignorance of the victim population. I spent a lot of time probably on the order of ten years over a span of thirty years working in all three of the most affected countries. In the major cities, Conakry, Freetown and Monrovia conditions are desperate. Medical care is virtually non-existent even for common disease like malaria or dystentary. Superstition is rampant. Those who do not adherre to animist beliefs are either muslim or christian and devoted in a child like way to the fiction that their god will save them from their poverty, hunger, disease and the ubiquitous threat of war and violence promted by greed. Witnessing the effects of this disease upon its victims is terrifying to any of us. How do you think these impoverished and isolated people must feel? Terror does not describe it.

    Moreover they are all just barely obtaining a degree of stability after nearly two decades of the most brutal and savage kind of civil war ever visite upon the world.

    The simple fact is that because they are so utterly destitute and ignorant, it is easy for use to ignore them. And so we do. But what we cannot ignore is that their population is an enormous incubator for the evolution of this deadly virus.

    What, evolution? It’s a lie, it doesn’t happen. We all know this because it is the absolute word of god that (he,she,it) created everything just as it is. We can safely ignore the enormous threat because we know the absolute truth, the good god is just punishing those heathen africans because they have the mark of Ham, they are obviously blech. Just look, the good god saved the life of the white christian doctor who was brought back to the US and given the best supportive care and experimental treatment available at a cost of what, hundreds of thousands of dollars perhaps? And still, it was the god’s miracle that saved him. Too bad for all thouse tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of blechs who have to suffer and ultimately bleed out like bags of blood soup because they don’t work for Samaritans Purse. God’s will be done. 800 million africans is way too many anyway.

    I know I am being inflamatory writing this way. Frankly I don’t care. I don’t think Orac will censor me because he values what is true and it is true that our (meaning mostly american and european) attitudes towards the crisis in Africa are not just racist and bigoted but callous and bordering on the sadistic.

    Most of you know nothing about Africans except some fictional hollywood depcition designed to make money. With a white S. African as the “hero” no less. I refer of course to the film I think was named Blood Diamond.

    Well, we can safely say there is plenty of blood and very little diamond.

    It is easy to accept tidy lies.

    How do you all think you will feel if at some future time there are an estimated 20,000 cases of Ebola in NYC?

    II may well be be banned for being to blunt but my perception of the sitiutation is this: Let the niggers die just fence them off so they can’t infect us.

    I don’t by any means attribute that attitude to Orac. But the very idea of hijacking this thread to talk about vaccine consipiracy theories speaks volumes. Let me hear a vaccine denialist argue that a 0.01% injury rate is a good reason to avoid preventing 60% fatalities from infection.

    I shut up in despair. There are no words….

  91. #91 LW
    September 9, 2014

    But the very idea of hijacking this thread to talk about vaccine consipiracy theories speaks volumes.

    Please be aware that antivaxxers have one-track minds. They see “CDC” and, like Pavlov’s dogs, they instantly start slobbering about vaccines. And then the good people on this site respond because, well, Something Is Wrong On The Internet. But you’ll notice that the good people did try to redirect the antivaxxer to a more appropriate thread.

  92. #92 Krebiozen
    September 9, 2014

    Krubozumo Nyankoye,

    I know I am being inflamatory writing this way. Frankly I don’t care. I don’t think Orac will censor me because he values what is true and it is true that our (meaning mostly american and european) attitudes towards the crisis in Africa are not just racist and bigoted but callous and bordering on the sadistic.

    I entirely agree with you. Worse, a lot of the problems in Africa are the legacy of colonialism, or post-colonial meddling; financing dictators, pouring money into useless development programs or causing environmental devastation to extract oil or minerals. The attention the media pays to horrors abroad seem to me to be inversely proportional to the darkness of their skin. What I have read about the ebola crisis seems more geared to fears of what might happen in the developed world rather than what is actually happening right now in Africa.

    The truth as I see it is that we cannot sustain the current situation, with a small number of people in the developed world living a lifestyle far better than the majority in the developing world. The planet has grown too small. Sooner or later things have to change radically, hopefully without too much more bloodshed.

  93. #93 Krubozumo Nyankoye
    September 10, 2014

    LW- I am aware and yes I did notice the reaction here to that hijacking attempt.. Never the less it did put a blip in the thread of converstation which is a sad commentary in itself. We should not become distracted from the issues at hand if we can at all avoid it.

    Krebiozen

    Yes there is a deep history behind the indifference and ignorance. I cannot comprehend it personally but then I have a far too intimate knowledge of what these ‘africans’ are. I lived with them in the bush, I worked along side them. They bestowed upon me the name I use here and never disclosed whether it had a meaning or was just an affection. In all the time I spent there, not one person was ever dishonest in dealing with me. When the horror of war engulfed us we universally resisted becoming brutal in response to brutality. Nothing I have experienced is so sad as the fact that all of my friends were put in such danger. Life is cruel.

    Thanks Orac for not censoring me. I know I am bitter . I notice today that others have picked up on the idea that letting this epidemic ‘burn itself out’ is a bad idea.

    When I was a child, I thought of childish things, now that I am a man I am amazed at the childishness of my peers.

    Me thinks it is a weasle.

    Nothing more need be said.

    I wish that all retire to sweet dreams knowing that it will not be so.

    Ciao,

  94. #94 lilady
    September 10, 2014

    @ Krubozumo Nyankoye: Perhaps I shouldn’t be discussing what was on Orac’s mind when he posted this article, but I suspect that he wanted to draw his readership into a discussion about mega-vitamin quackery…for every disease and disorder known to mankind.

    Orac, and other science bloggers which Orac has linked to, have discussed the blatant race baiting (the infamous Tuskegee study), that Wakefield and Hooker engaged in, on their videotape.

    I cannot speak for Orac or any of the Respectful Insolence commenters, but I worked as a public health nurse clinician-epidemiologist and most of my patients in the public health clinics were non-white, indigent and in need of a medical home for preventive health care, for treatment of chronic conditions…and for treatment of STDs including HIV infections, for tuberculosis and for diseases contracted in their home countries. I have also worked with staff from the CDC and found them to be extremely competent and extremely dedicated to public health for all the inhabitants of the United States (citizens and undocumented aliens).

    I am also (an amateur) student of history and your observations and the comments made by other posters about colonialism and xenophobia are correct.

  95. #95 Brook
    a bit OT
    September 10, 2014

    @KN thank you for your thoughtful and insightful comments. I often think about what I would do in such a chaotic situation and thank my stars I live in a part of the world where we can quibble about soccer vs lacrosse for our kids.

    Do you have any suggestions or thoughts on how best to help? Not just with the ebola (although that is critical) but with the underlying problems.

  96. #96 Broken Link
    September 18, 2014

    This particularly egregious example of misinformation popped up in a quackery group this morning. I’d never heard of Ingri Cassel, and thought this was worth sharing.

    Also interesting is that the Hooker-Thompson-Wakefield affair is bundled with the idea that Ebola is a fake pandemic.

    TALK SHOW tonight, Sept 17!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    724-444-7444 pin120481
    http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkCast.jsp?masterId=120481&cmd=tc
    9 PM EST; 8 PM CST; 7 PM MST; 6 PM PST.

    We are talking about the creation of a fake
    pandemic with the attempt to force vaccinate the populace.
    We need to move beyond the space of “protecting
    me and my own family”. Please join us for
    tomorrow’s Talkshow call so we can strategize on
    how to effectively wake people up in our own community and state.
    Their pandemic plan has been in the works for a
    LONG time (over 10 years ago they put the missing
    pieces in place which includes all 50 states having MSEHPA laws.)

    We suggest that you and everyone on this list
    follow Jon Rappoport’s excellent reporting on
    both EbolaScare2014 and the CDC Whistleblower at
    http://www.nomorefakenews.com/

    Received this on an email from a contact. I
    cannot verify this information, but it certainly
    is interesting and worthy of consideration about the ‘alleged’ Ebola virus.

    “There have been a number of articles recently
    about the Ebola outbreak but none of them have
    looked into one obvious cause. What was happening
    in West Africa before Ebola erupted? As well as
    conflict and social dislocation, there were three
    vaccine programs – Live oral Polio, a Meningitis
    vaccine specificallly for Africans (MenAfrVac),
    and a fairly new cholera vaccine with booster (2
    dose plan). The live oral polio may be given as
    often as monthly. Ebola is a viral hemorrhagic
    fever with widely-variable effects – death in
    some, no symptoms in othhers. A weakened or
    over-challenged immune system opens the way for
    the worst of the disease. Is it coincidence that
    the vaccine programs, whatever their hoped-for
    benefit, might have exceeded the limits for many?

    “It is certainly true that the vaccine programs
    take resources away from primary health care.
    Doctors and nurses are offered much higher wages
    by programs like these, the GAVI Alliance and
    others. This has compounded the response to Ebola
    as well as reducing access to local health care when it was most needed.

    “As for the new vaccines (“Two Ebola vaccines
    on the way†7.9.2014), gene technology used in
    the production of one of them means people are
    injected with chimpanzee cells along with one of
    the Ebola viruses. The chimpanzee cells are used
    as vectors to deliver the virus. The effects,
    short-term and long-term of these vector vaccines
    is still not known. The last people who should be
    selected for the new experimental vaccines are
    the desperately-needed health-care workers. They
    should not be given anything that is not 100%
    safe. Nor should anyone else! And the
    “coincidence†of Ebola erupting after three
    concerted vaccine programs needs proper independent investigation. “
    In the Spirit of Truth,

    Ingri Cassel, director
    Vaccination Liberation
    P.O. Box 457
    Spirit Lake, Idaho 83869
    (208) 255-2307

    VacLib.org
    VaccineTruth.com
    NVICAdvocacy.org

  97. #97 JGC
    September 18, 2014

    Isn’t Ingri way overdue for her own entry in the Encyclopedia of American Loons?

  98. #98 No Harmacy
    Australia
    September 18, 2014

    @ Orac – before this post got hijacked by the vaccine trolls on both sides, I believe you were slamming the idea of high dose IVC for Ebola. As a poster mentioned very early on, IVC reverses endothelial dysfunction. There are numerous animal studies to prove this.

    Look at the work by Tyml and Wilson, in sepsis it is thought that a high free radical load uncouples nitric oxide production by inhibiting the enzyme nitric oxide synthetase, the end result of which is organ failure among other things. High dose IVC has been shown by the above researchers and Dr Fowler from a reputable university in Richmond VA. (Look him up, he is a real person and a highly respected doctor).

    The exciting thing is that Dr Fowler published in January 2014, the first trial of high dose IVC in human sepsis. Unfortunately it was only a phase 1 study over 4 days but both doses of IVC (50mg/kg/ day and 200mg/kg/day) improved measures of organ failure and ultimately mortality ( although the study was not adequately powered to detect this and as treatment with IVC was halted after 4 days, there was still mortality in the active groups).
    This group now has NIH funding to conduct a multi centre follow up phase 2 trial to further this research.

    Without understanding at a microscopic level the pathogenesis of Ebola virus it is highly plausible that IVC may prevent endothelial damage and hopefully someone will have the courage to test this.

    There are other studies in ICU patients which have showed reduced mortality and pulmonary complications and the Japanese have administered as high as 66mg/kg/hour without reported toxicity.

    Just look a little further into it Orac before you open your mouth and you will see that the science behind this has been proven in the published medical literature even if the phase 2/3 studies are still yet to come.

  99. #99 Alan
    Fairfield, Iowa
    September 24, 2014

    You are nothing but a shill for the fraudulent cabal that is trying to create a genocidal virus, you shi*head.

    Go back into your stinking hole and don’t pollute the public discussion of this topicl

  100. #100 Alan
    Fairfield, Iowa
    September 24, 2014

    You are nothing but a shill for the the murderous cabal that has created what they hope is a genocidal virus. They would never create a genocidal disease that was not easy to cure. They are evil but NOT stupid.

    Please go back into the stinking hole you hide in and stop polluting the public discussion of this topic.

  101. #101 Ikenstein
    UK
    September 24, 2014

    In the unlikely event I get infected with Ebola I’ll be trying the high dose vitamin C plan. By high dose I mean 500g per day, diluted and split over 24 doses. There is a sound hypothesis behind the proposed treatment.

    Am I convinced it would work? Of course not. However when faced with an incurable virus with an 80% probability of death it seems to be the only proposed treatment that has any merit. I’m willing to spend 50 bucks on a couple kilos of cheap vitamin C powder on this basis.

    Got a better idea? I’m all ears.

  102. #102 Ikenstein
    UK
    September 24, 2014

    Didn’t take you long to delete my comment. Well done on being douche bags.

  103. #103 Orac
    September 24, 2014

    Uh, no. It’s known as you posting a comment that got hung up in moderation while I was asleep. Oh, and pot, kettle, black.

  104. #104 Virus And Cancer Killer
    September 24, 2014

    Everybody just relax and rest assured – I got the cure and prevention of Ebola and any other viruses – All of them [Ebola, West Nile, HIV-AIDS, Colds, Flues (no more Flu seasons, etc.), Malaria, Dengue, etc.] can be made absolutely none-existent for everyone – Once everybody starts doing for a minute a day the exercise Personal Virus and Cancer Killer, nobody will give a damn what sort of viruses stalk out there, for everybody will be absolutely untouchable for them and will stay absolutely healthy all the time, all life long – The Virus/Cancer Killer is the deadly Ebola virus (of any strains and mutants) devastating destroyer by which the virus is killed the moment it touches us – Its protein decoy cannot protect it from being destroyed instantly, regardless of the way of its transmission – My Personal Virus and Cancer Killer can eliminate the deadly Ebola disease pandemic crisis for just a few days – Once I am paid the corresponding funds for that.

  105. #105 Chris
    September 24, 2014

    Ikenstein: “Got a better idea? I’m all ears.”

    Stay out of Africa. You are very unlikely to encounter ebola unless you are in the African areas that it has spread to, or are a part of the medical personnel helping an aid worker who has been transported to Emory University.

    Virus and Cancer Killer: Go away you greedy little crazy troll.

  106. #106 JGC
    September 24, 2014

    “Everybody just relax and rest assured – I got the cure and prevention of Ebola and any other viruses ”

    Citations needed. Desparately.

  107. #107 JGC
    Sepsis isn't Ebola, no harmacy
    September 24, 2014

    Dr. Fowler’s clinical trial publication is found on Pubmed at PMID:24484547. I don’t see anything in the publicationt that suggests high dose vitamin C would be an effective treatment for hemorraghic viruses such as Ebola.

    Dr. Fowler hismelf concludes only that

    This phase I trial shows that aggressive repletion of plasma ascorbic acid levels in patients with severe sepsis is safe. This early work in septic patients suggests that pharmacologic ascorbic acid repletion reduces the extent of multiple organ failure and attenuates circulating injury biomarker levels.

  108. #108 Jin
    NYC
    September 25, 2014

    Fruit bats are suspected to be the source of Ebola.

    There are only a handful of mammalian species that cannot produce their own Vitamin C, humans and fruit bats among them.

    Vitamin C is directly involved in the function of red blood cells.

    Fruit bats do not die from Ebola, but humans do.

    If fruit bats have a higher amount of vitamin C than humans (by body weight), then high doses of vitamin C should be attempted as a therapeutic or maybe even a cure.

    All three patients in America have survived, the last one saying he never even felt like he was dieing. Both patients in Spain have died. It could have been something as simple as vitamin C dosage.

    There is more than enough reason to investigate this possibility.

    Klenner does sound like a kook but faulty reasoning can sometimes lead to the correct conclusion. It may not be true, but disputing it before it’s been explicitly disproven is just as unscientific as claiming it’s a cure without proof.

  109. #109 LW
    September 25, 2014

    “If fruit bats have a higher amount of vitamin C than humans (by body weight), then high doses of vitamin C should be attempted as a therapeutic or maybe even a cure.”

    IF

  110. #110 Mike
    October 1, 2014

    You lost all credibility at the first use of the word “Quack”, and subsequently at the repeated abuse of its derivatives.

    Your vitriol does not make you a scientist.

  111. #111 Orac
    October 1, 2014

    You’re actually right. My vitriol doesn’t make me a scientist. My PhD and published record in the peer-reviewed scientific literature make me a scientist.

  112. #112 Shay
    October 1, 2014

    LW, I need to stop trying to read the computer screen with my specs off. For a moment I thought you were quoting a recommendation on fruit bats as a therapeutic or even a cure for Ebola.

  113. #113 LW
    October 1, 2014

    @Shay, high doses of fruit bats? At least it would be a new and different form of quackery.

  114. #114 brook
    October 2, 2014

    @shay – I prefer my fruit bats to be dosed homeopathically.

  115. #115 Lee Aikin
    Washington, DC
    October 2, 2014

    So many issues to comment on. Vitamin C, Megavitamins, vaccines, silver treatment.
    I am currently in my late 70s and in fine health. When I was 15, my 45 year old mother had her varicose veins removed after 7 years of open ankle ulcers. At 30 when I had my first child, I had to lie down at 8 pm to avoid leg pain and veins were starting to spread. Discovered Adelle Davis, tried C, E and other things. In 3 weeks could stand up until midnight, no pain, veins shrank, legs are still fine. Have used supplement ever since.
    Regarding C, it is estimated animals produce 2 to 4 grams per day relative to human weight. I am allergic and take 3 to 6 grams/day (30 years). With a cold or flu have taken as much as 20 or 25 grams in a day. An overdose produces burning urine or acid farts at which point one cuts back.
    Twenty five years ago I was in the wilderness camping. Came upon an emergency where people were trying to help a woman stung several times in her neck and forgot her allergy kit. Her body was swollen, eyes swollen shut, and was choking and panicked. I gave her 10 grams of C and in 15 minutes the swelling was reduced, she could see and had stopped choking. I stayed with her 8 hours giving 5 g of C every hour. She walked out the next day. I had remembered reading that Dr. Klenner used 50 grams of C to treat rattlesnake bite.
    When a child sick with flu, my woman doctor would dip Q tips in Argerole and put them up my nose for 10 minutes. I never got strep throat when she did this, did get it other times.
    Regarding vaccinations, I recommend never getting them when feeling sick, and never giving a child more than 3 at one time, also make sure they are well rested and fed.
    High vitamin C doses are so unharmful, that it certainly would make sense to use it either orally or intravenously, for a serious viral illness like Ebola, Marburg, Hanta. As I said before, burning urine or acid farts indicate saturation. Your body normally excretes Vitamin C every 5 or 6 hours, so I take mine 3 or 4 times a day.

  116. #116 Narad
    October 2, 2014

    You lost all credibility at the first use of the word “Quack”

    Hey, you lost all credibility of the first use of “you lost all credibility at the first use of,” so there’s that.

  117. #117 herr doktor bimler
    October 2, 2014

    Is no-one concerned about the risk of dementia and parkinsonism from fruit-bat consumption?!