Bill_Maher_a_l

Note added 2/10/2015: I’ve posted a followup in response to the skeptics who defend Bill Maher.

A couple of weeks ago, I noted the return of the antivaccine wingnut side of Bill Maher, after a (relative) absence of several years, dating back, most likely, to the thorough spanking he endured for spouting off his antivaccine pseudoscience during the H1N1 pandemic. This well-deserved mockery included Bob Costas taunting him on his own show with a sarcastic, “Oh, come on, Superman!” in response to his apparent belief that diet and lifestyle alone would protect him from the flu, as well as Chris Matthews doing the same thing, likening Bill Maher to a celebrity Scientologist denying psychiatry to his face. Then Michael Shermer took him on, gently remonstrating with him, which led Maher to go full mental jacket trying to defend himself. He was even slapped down by Senator Bill Frist for saying he doesn’t believe in vaccines or “Western medicine.” Of course, given that I’ve been covering Maher’s antivaccine proclivities for a decade now, I was under no illusion that he had suddenly gone a conversion to science. Rather, I just thought (correctly, as it turns out) that he was laying low, licking his wounds. So when he went anti-flu vaccine a couple of weeks ago, I wondered if that was a harbinger of things to come.

Then, earlier this week, I saw an editorial by Andrew Kirell, Will Bill Maher Address His Long History of Vaccine Skepticism This Week? Kirell concluded his op-ed asking:

And that brings us to this week. His Real Time panel includes no doctors, but features two conservative pundits and a journalist — any of whom will likely take the opportunity to prod Maher in light of this week’s news.

So will Maher address his history on the matter and say something controversial? It seems unavoidable.

If the episode two weeks ago was just the hors d’oeuvre, this week’s episode of Real Time With Bill Maher was the main course of full-on antivaccine wingnuttery. Seriously, this might well be the worst Maher’s ever been with respect to science, yoking in appeals to ignorance, specious comparisons with anthropogenic global warming, various anti-pharma rants, and, of course, GMO hysteria. Here’s the offending segment (although Maher did mention earlier in the show that he’s not “antivaccine” just “anti-flu vaccine”):


For advocates of science, this is painful to watch, as Maher and his guests rubbish vaccines, “Western” medicine, GMOs, big pharma, Monsanto, and all the usual suspects that cranks and quacks attack. Before I address the specific misinformation and pseudoscience promoted in this episode, let me first note that clearly Maher must have learned something from previous embarrassments. For example, his exploratory rant against this year’s flu vaccine (whose efficacy is, unfortunately, less than usual and disappointing) was easily countered by Atul Gawande, a real physician and researcher, just as Bill Frist, a real physician, countered him before. Heck, even Bob Costas and Chris Matthews were able to counter Maher’s misinformation. This time around, Maher clearly made sure there was no one who was likely to contradict his quackery-laden views or take him to task for spreading antivaccine pseudoscience on his show.

First up, there was Marianne Williamson, who apparently ran for Congress last year. But there’s more than that. I had never heard of her before, but apparently she’s some sort of author and “spiritual teacher.” Her blog is New-Agey and woo-ey, as is she, as her Facebook profile shows:

Marianne Williamson is an internationally acclaimed spiritual teacher. Her first book, A Return to Love: Reflections on the Principles of A COURSE IN MIRACLES, is considered a must-read of The New Spirituality. A paragraph from that book, beginning “Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure” – often misattributed to Nelson Mandela’s Inaugural address – is considered an anthem for a contemporary generation of seekers.

If you don’t believe me, then read this interview with her about the “Law of Divine Compensation.”

More tellingly, apparently before her appearance on Maher’s show she had been posting links to articles about the Gates Foundation. Or something. Whatever the reason, on February 1 felt the need to post this, where she states that she took down several posts, apparently about vaccines, because her fans were trashing her. At least, that’s all I could figure out from the comments:

Many of the comments after are a veritable hive of antivaccine sentiment, complete with links to articles by antivaccine loons like Gary Null, Sherry Tenpenny, and Mike Adams. If Williamson attracts such an antivaccine crowd, one has to wonder, particularly in light of her performance on Maher’s show. Certainly, even if she is not antivaccine, she is too clueless or doesn’t care enough to make a defense of vaccination.

Another of Maher’s guests is Amy Holmes of The Blaze, which Glenn Beck’s TV channel. Obviously, that’s a bad sign right there, given Glenn Beck’s propensity for conspiracy mongering. I couldn’t find any evidence that she’s ever voiced antivaccine views before (or, for that matter, anything much at all about vaccines). So we have another reporter, this time working for Glenn Beck. This is not a good indication that she has any scientific background.

Finally, there is conservative columnist John McCormack of the Weekly Standard. Contrary to a couple of conservatives who voiced some antivaccine-sympathetic nonsense last week, McCormack is the only one on Maher’s panel who showed a modicum of sense, although he was not willing to challenge Maher that strongly, and one of his challenges was a politically motivated misfire expressing anthropogenic global climate change denialism, as you will see. It’s basically fighting pseudoscience with pseudoscience, and that doesn’t really make a particularly good case.

You know things are not going to go well, scientifically speaking, when, right off the bat, Maher introduces the segment by referring to the meeasles outbreak as the “topic that’s getting everybody crazy in America” and then saying:

When I start these conversations, I always have to say: I’m not an antivaxer. I never have been. I’m an anti-flu shot guy I think that’s bullshit, and the fact that it was only 23% effective this week bears that out. But if Ebola was airborne, I’d get the vaccine tomorrow.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Good thing for Maher that Atul Gawande wasn’t there to school him about the flu vaccine as he did last time as Maher deserved to be schooled. Of course, Gawande is too nice to school Maher as he needs to be schooled and Maher would never allow anyone with both the knowledge and the necessary willingness to call Maher out properly to carry out the task on his show. It is, after all, his show. In any case, I’ve documented more times than I’d care to count that Maher is indeed antivaccine to the core—and pro-quackery to the core. Maher labors under the delusion that he is more rational than everybody else, and his smugness and condescension drip from his very essence, oozing from the television (or computer screen, depending on what you’re watching him on).

It gets even worse when Maher immediately starts complaining about the “attitude of the media,” which he characterized as “just a lot of shut the fuck up.” He even compared it to the first weeks of the Iraq war. This lead Williamson to chime in that the implication was that “if you had any skepticism whatsoever, you were antiscience.” Of course, Bill Maher is anti-science with respect to vaccines, even though he views himself as totally pro-science. So he lapped this up, particularly when she followed it up with the self-serving Maher-approved observation that there is a “difference between having skepticism about science and having skepticism about the pharmaceutical industry.” Truly her stupid did burn brightly. It burns brighter still. Even as she touts that she vaccinated her children, she goes on about how the government has “earned our distrust” and how the “government has suppressed information” and medicine has done the same, she bristles at being called antiscience for being suspicious of the pharmaceutical industry. Her conclusion? She says that the answer is “not to call us kooks” but for the government and pharmaceutical industry to “get their acts together.”

Of course, this is a tactic taken straight from the playbook of the antivaccine movement, to conflate (disingenuously) reasonable suspicion of the pharmaceutical industry’s previous misdeeds with suspicions of vaccines. They are not the same thing, nor is one as reasonable as the other. Whatever misdeeds the pharmaceutical industry might be guilty of, they do not cast doubt on the safety and efficacy of vaccines. There is plenty of independent evidence to support the conclusions that vaccines do not cause autism, they do not cause neurodevelopmental disorders, and they do not cause sudden infant death syndrome, allergic conditions, or any of the other problems frequently ascribed to them by antivaccinationists. No matter how much the government or the pharmaceutical industry “gets its act together” it’s never, ever enough for kooks like Marianne Williamson. (I couldn’t resist.) Also, the claim that you “can’t question” is a favorite cry of the crank.

Help, help, I’m being repressed!

Unfortunately, Amy Holmes can’t resist adding to the stupid of the whole affair. She characterizes the news coverage as “gotcha politics,” in which Governor Chris Christie and Senator Rand Paul are made to look like kooks or “anti-science” (Holmes even does air scare quotes to emphasize the point), a comparison that literally made me do the rare double facepalm upon hearing it and practically shouting at the television. No wonder this woman works for Glenn Beck! She then points out that 48 states allow parents to have religious and/or personal belief exemptions. Yes, that’s true, but so what? It’s bad policy, and 48 states have bad policy. In any case, she tries to burnish her science bona fides by saying that she “doesn’t worship at the church of Jenny McCarthy” as she describes the case of a woman with a child with leukemia, but her overall attitude is that it’s “gotcha politics” to have called out Gov. Christie and Sen. Paul for their antivaccine nonsense.

It isn’t, and it isn’t “gotcha politics” to call Sen. Rand Paul antivaccine. He is.

At this point, John McCormack dives in as the seeming voice of reason, which is good. Unfortunately, he couldn’t resist making the claim that this is not a Republican problem but more of a “liberal problem.” It’s not. Antivaccinationism is very at home among libertarians and conservatives, and there’s no evidence that this is a “liberal problem,” the stereotype notwithstanding. As I’ve said so many times before, antivaccinationism is the quackery and pseudoscience that transcends political boundaries. By trying to paint antivaccine beliefs as more a “liberal” problem, McCormack shows his true agenda. (Hint: It’s not to defend science.)

If you want more evidence of this, then check out the next exchange. First, Maher makes this ludicrous analogy:

The analogy that I see all the time is that if you ask any questions, you are the same thing as a global warming denier. I think this is a very bad analogy, because I don’t think all science is alike. I think climate science is rather straightforward because you’re dealing with the earth. It’s a rock. I’m not saying I know how to deal with it, but climate scientists, from the very beginning, have pretty much said the same thing, and their predictions have pretty much come true. It’s atmospherics, and it’s geology, and chemistry. That’s not true of the medical industry. I mean, they’ve had to retract a million things because the human body is infinitely more mysterious. People get cancer, and doctors just don’t know why. They just don’t know why, and they don’t know how to fix it. And they put mercury in my teeth. My father had ulcers and they treated it wrong when I was a kid. Thalidomide. I mean I could go on about how many times they have been wrong. To compare those two science is, I think, just wrong.

And magnets, how do they work?

Seriously. This is nothing more than the “science was wrong before” gambit. Let’s just put it this way. Physics has gone through many iterations and has had to “admit” that many of its prior theories were wrong. Does Maher doubt, for instance, the theory of relativity, which supplanted Newtonian physics? His analogy is just so utterly, breathakingly stupid that I did the double double facepalm upon hearing it. In fact, doubting the safety and efficacy of vaccines is very much like climate science denialism. Both are areas of science that are well accepted by the scientific community and backed by enormous quantities of evidence.

Here’s where McCormack goes off the rails. He mentions that there is an M.I.T. professor, Richard Lindzen, who’s a climate skeptic, but there are no such professors that are vaccine skeptics. Of course, being a professor doesn’t mean you’re not a denialist, and in fact Lindzen is a denialist. He’s also the beneficiary of oil industry money, which is amusing because it led Maher to say the one thing he said in this entire segment that is mostly correct, namely that most climate “skeptics” have ties to industry. McCormack is also just plain wrong that there are no professors who are “vaccine skeptics.” For instance, there’s Christopher Shaw, who is a Professor of Ophthalmology and Visual Sciences at the University of British Columbia whose research specializes in neurodegenerative diseases. He’s also an antivaccine crank who thinks aluminum adjuvants in vaccines cause Alzheimer’s disease and autism. He’s appeared in the antivaccine propaganda movie The Greater Good and has been interjected himself into a sad case of an 18-year-old female who died suddenly, trying to blame it on Gardasil. Oh, yes, Mr. McCormack. There are definitely antivaccine professors out there. They are very much like AGW denialist professors in their modus operandi.

Maher’s next argument is just plain dumb. He decides he’s going to liken vaccines to antibiotics and ask, “Can you just do too much of a good thing?” and “Is it limitless? Is there no amount that is too much?” At another point, he seems to imply that scientists were surprised that antibiotic resistance has become so widespread, when in fact it was scientist warning about overuse of antibiotics who foresaw this problem. This leads Williamson to repeat the tired old antivaccine trope of “too many, too soon” in the form of JAQing off. Maher feeds off of that by acknowledging that vaccines don’t cause autism and that he “accepts that,” but then pivots to the classic antivaccine trope that there are no long term studies of vaccinated versus unvaccinated children and “wonders” if people who’ve had a lot of vaccine have “robust immune systems.” He links this to more diagnoses of allergies, autoimmune diseases, and the like, in a classic bit of JAQing off in which he says he isn’t claiming that vaccines are responsible for this. He’s just asking questions, you know—and confusing correlation with causation.

As my good bud Mark Hoofnagle notes, he even does some serious mental gymnastics in which he goes on about how he thinks that if you don’t use your immune system, you’ll lose it. The problem, of course, is that vaccines activate the immune system by stimulating it with the same antigens that one finds in the pathogens that cause disease. They wouldn’t work if that weren’t what they do. So Maher can’t even keep a coherent train of thought. On the one hand, supposedly we have all these autoimmune diseases, presumably because vaccines stimulate the immune system too much, but then people who have been vaccinated don’t have as “robust an immune system.” Which is it Bill? And do you have the slightest clue how stupid about medicine you sound?

Obviously not.

At this point I can’t resist a little dig at Amy Holmes’ ignorance about smallpox. She notes that she has had a smallpox vaccine because she’s was born out of the country and notes (“thank goodness”) that we are “eradicating smallpox.” News flash for Ms. Holmes: We are not eradicating smallpox. We eradicated it decades ago, thanks to vaccines. There have been no natural cases since 1977, and the last known case was due to a laboratory accident in 1978. It’s been 37 years since there’s been a recorded case of smallpox, because of vaccines. It gets even worse. Maher makes an incoherent analogy to testosterone supplementation, in which such supplementation “makes your balls shrink.” He then analogizes that to vaccines and the immune system, implying that if you use vaccines your immune system thinks it doesn’t have to work so hard. Again, does this clown even know how vaccines work?

Maher also complains that he’s never had a “Western doctor” ask him about his diet. Really? If his anecdote is to be believed, then let me point out my anecdote. Every doctor I’ve ever had asked me about my diet. I also note that, until the last several years, I was actually pretty thin. Twenty years ago, I was actually skinny. However, as I got into my 40s and hit 50, biology betrayed me (as it is wont to do as one gets older) and, although I’m not fat, I’m no longer thin. Around that time, when I went from being thin to being average to being slightly overweight, lo and behold! My doctor started asking me about diet and lifestyle.

This leads to a curious rant about GMOs and an attack on Monsanto, or, as I like to call it, argumentum ad Monsanto. At this point, McCormack argues that GMOs have been a great force for reducing world hunger, which is undoubtedly true. Maher dismisses such arguments with a jaunty, “But I’m not a starving child in Africa. If I were a starving child, then, yes, I’d eat a GMO.” McCormack then asks what studies show that GMOs are harmful, which leads Williamson and Maher to become condescendingly dismissive, with “WTF? Are you kidding me?” looks on their faces. Of course, as I’ve described before, the only studies that have claimed to show dangers from GMOs are studies done by anti-GMO advocates and studies with very poor design. These are the sorts of studies that evidently impress Maher and Williamson, utter crap.

Maher believes himself to be the real pro-science advocate. He is about as wrong as wrong can be. He is anti-vaccine, anti-“Western medicine,” and in general antiscience, except for a limited number of areas of science that fit in with his ideological biases. As such, he’s an object lesson in how one can be intelligent and anti-science at the same time. He’s also an object lesson in how being an atheist and being pro-science are related only by coincidence. I had thought that Maher might have been sufficiently chastened by the spanking he received in 2009 and 2010 about his antivaccine stylings. Apparently five years have been enough time for his antivaccine freak flag to fly again.

He is no skeptic. He is no pro-science advocate. He’s an occasionally funny political comedian with delusions of grandeur with respect to his own rationality.

Comments

  1. #1 Chris
    February 20, 2015

    Ken: “ebm.sagepub.com/content/143/4/1053.short”

    A 1973 article on a test adjuvant used on only 2000 people. Now prove it is used in any American vaccine in the last five years.

  2. #2 Chris
    February 20, 2015

    Iliya, where is your evidence that your magic supplements prevent measles infections?

  3. #3 JGC
    Did you read the article, ken?
    February 20, 2015

    Ken, your link is to a study where two small groups of volunteer subjects received either flu vaccine in aquesous suspension or flu vaccine in peanut oil adjuvant 65-4. A total of 182 volunteers received the vaccine in adjuvant 65-4.

    So if your argument is that small scale studies in adult volunteer subjects were performed to assess the performance of adjuvant 65-4, then yes: you’ve found evidence it its support.

    If your claim instead is that peanut oil adjuvants were ever used in approved vaccines administered to anyone as part of the a routinely recommended vaccination schedule, keep looking.

  4. #4 Narad
    February 20, 2015

    Ten-Year Follow-Up Study for Safety of Adjuvant 65 Influenza Vaccine in Man

    Oh, FFS, it’s another peanut-oil-in-vaccines bonehead. Use the search box, go join Vinu Arumugham in the relevant thread, or FOADIAF, your choice.

    HTH. HAND. *plonk*

  5. #5 Militant Agnostic
    Look it up for yourself because I can't be arsed to find the evdidence for my claims..
    February 20, 2015

    JP @367

    If you’re going to say it’s by “boosting the immune system,” please be prepared to provide, in your own words, an analysis of the relationship between the immune system and, say, Alzheimer’s.

    I would be more interested in hearing how “boosting the immune system” would be beneficial for someone with Lupus.

  6. #6 JGC
    February 20, 2015

    GC when I hear loon or quack that is code for these doctors are getting to close to exposing the truth we must tar and feather them typical propaganda.

    No, Iliya: describing Humphries as a loon isn’t code for anything but simply an accurate characterization. She unequivocally demonstrates she’s a loon by her enthusiastic embrace of homeopathy.

  7. #7 JGC
    February 20, 2015

    Nobody wants to comment on the elephant in the room they target low hanging fruit exposing the weakness of their position.

    As far as I can tell the elephant in the room–the critical fact that demands acknowledgment–is that you haven’t provided any evidence that, at levels of exposure achievable as a consequence of routine childhood vaccination, any of the ingredients in vaccine formulations cause harm in any way.

  8. #8 JP
    February 20, 2015

    If you’re going to say it’s by “boosting the immune system,” please be prepared to provide, in your own words, an analysis of the relationship between the immune system and, say, Alzheimer’s.

    I would be more interested in hearing how “boosting the immune system” would be beneficial for someone with Lupus.

    Good point. That would be fun.

  9. #9 Narad
    February 20, 2015

    Now, it is up to you to provide proof that peanut oil is used in American vaccines

    C’mon, this stupidity is so robotic that I can tell you the next step: It doesn’t have to be labeled, because peanut oil is GRAS.

  10. #10 Gray Falcon
    February 20, 2015

    iliya, Has Suzanne provided any evidence that babies have underdeveloped kidneys besides “Because I said so, that’s why.”?

  11. #11 Narad
    February 20, 2015

    ^ Or some combination of words involving “proprietary” or “trade secret.” Ken’s not even worth wasting time on.

  12. #12 herr doktor bimler
    February 20, 2015

    Nobody wants to comment on the elephant in the room they target low hanging fruit

    No wonder the elephants keep getting into the room if there’s low-hanging fruit there. It’s attracting them. Get rid of the fruit and the elephants will go somewhere else.

  13. #13 Narad
    February 20, 2015

    Has Suzanne provided any evidence that babies have underdeveloped kidneys besides “Because I said so, that’s why.”?

    See here, here, and related citations. Amazingly, it’s possible to take this into account.

  14. #14 Chris
    February 20, 2015

    Narad in pedantic mood: “C’mon, this stupidity is so robotic that I can tell you the next step”

    What? Why would I want to miss the links to old small scale studies? It’s pure comedy gold.

    Almost as much as Iliya shilling for his MLM supplement scam claiming they prevent diseases like measles.

  15. #15 Gray Falcon
    February 20, 2015

    Thanks, Narad. Now I wish I actually knew something about kidneys, so I can figure out whether that means she’s right about babies not being able to process trace amounts of aluminum. Seeing as breast milk contains more, though, I’m guessing they can.

  16. #16 herr doktor bimler
    February 20, 2015

    Ken’s link at 390 makes it clear that he is simply parroting the skree-du-jour at SaneVax, so why argue with him when you could argue directly with the organ-grinder?

  17. #17 herr doktor bimler
    February 20, 2015

    parroting the skree-du-jour at SaneVax SaneVax.

  18. #18 herr doktor bimler
    February 20, 2015

    Buggrit.
    parroting the skree-du-jour at SaneVax SmartVax.

  19. #19 Narad
    February 20, 2015

    Now I wish I actually knew something about kidneys, so I can figure out whether that means she’s right about babies not being able to process trace amounts of aluminum.

    The link in #401 might help with that.

  20. #20 herr doktor bimler
    February 21, 2015

    Use the search box, go join Vinu Arumugham in the relevant thread

    That thread had over 1300 comments, last time I looked in. APV had moved on from the position that “If polysorbate-80 isn’t made from peanut starch then why won’t the manufacturers say that it isn’t?” to “The manufacturers of polysorbate-80 say that it isn’t made from peanut starch but they’re probably lying.”

    I did like his explanation that vaccines cause peanut allergies in countries where peanut products feature in the diet, and sesame allergies in countries where sesame products feature in the diet, and this is because vaccine manufacturers use country-specific batches of polysorbate, created from local footstuffs, perhaps in a gesture to locavory.

    Anyway, APV deserves some credit for coming up with his own theory in which it’s the homeopathic contamination of vaccine excipients with peanut proteins which cause allergies, rather than the more easily refuted peanut-oil-adjuvant piffle preferred by the majority of flakes.

  21. #21 Helianthus
    February 21, 2015

    I did like his explanation that vaccines cause peanut allergies […]

    I’m still reeling from its assertion that shrimp allergy was (maybe) caused because the minute quantities of agar in vaccines are made from algae harvested from the sea, and as everybody know there are also shrimps in the sea.

  22. #22 Narad
    February 21, 2015

    Anyway, APV deserves some credit for coming up with his own theory

    I would be first in line to see whether Vinu would take Ken apart. I did offer two other suggested options, though.

  23. #23 Helianthus
    February 21, 2015

    Dr Suzzane Humphries said baby kidneys take time to develop

    That’s why babies don’t pee until they are 2-year old.

  24. #24 Krebiozen
    February 21, 2015

    iliya wrote:

    Why asthma ADHD, Autism, Allergies Auto immune diseases, learning disabilities are exploding and why we have growing chronic diseases in children.

    I know the altmed litany is that everything is getting worse and worse, but is this really true? Asthma incidence and prevalence are falling in some countries:

    In a national study of 333,294 patients with a recorded diagnosis of asthma, drawn from the health database of 422 British practices, the incidence of asthma decreased in all patients from the period of 2001 to 2005, from 6.9 to 5.2 per 1,000 people.

    Presumably that reflects our superior nutrition in the UK (that’s sarcasm, by the way).

    Causes appear to be multifactorial (from the same paper):

    It is likely that changes in incidence and prevalence are due to multiple factors, each contributing a relatively small effect.

    What about ADHD? This German study found “no significant changes regarding the frequency of ADHD diagnosis” between 2003-2006 and 2009-2012.

  25. #25 Krebiozen
    February 21, 2015

    Sorry, incidence, not prevalence, is decreasing in the UK. Prevalence is still increasing because asthma tends to persist for a long time.

  26. #26 Krebiozen
    February 21, 2015

    Continuing…
    Autism and learning disabilities? Apparent increases are very likely due to diagnostic substitution i.e. people who were diagnosed with mental retardation a few decades ago are now diagnosed with autism and/or learning difficulties.

    Allergies and autoimmune diseases? They do appear to be increasing in the developed world, but there are a number of probable reasons for this, none of which include vaccines, malnutrition or supplement deficiency.

  27. #27 Krebiozen
    February 21, 2015

    Finally…
    What about “growing chronic diseases in children”? The increase in the number of children living with chronic illnesses is very likely because of improvements in medical care, i.e. those children would have died a few decades ago. There is evidence to support this, for example, in the UK the number of children who died with a chronic health condition fell between 2001 and 2014.

    So it seems to me the altmed litany is mistaken. The apparent increase in these conditions is largely due to either changes in diagnosis, to improvements in health care or to other changes, such as older women having babies and increases in single child families. I see nothing to suggest we are all being poisoned by toxins or suffering from supplement deficiencies.

  28. #28 TBruce
    February 21, 2015

    ,blockquote>The increase in the number of children living with chronic illnesses is very likely because of improvements in medical care, i.e. those children would have died a few decades ago

    I mentioned in a recent comment (can’t be bothered to look it up) that I had twin uncles who died in status asthmaticus in childhood. Nowadays, they would be alive with controlled asthma. I didn’t mention that I had asthma when I was a kid. It was exercise-induced asthma, which wasn’t really recognized 50 years ago. It was diagnosed later in retrospect. At the time, it was assumed that I was out of shape. Nowadays, I would be one of those kids who carries a puffer around.
    I also am sure that the “increase” in ASD and ADHD incidence is due to increased awareness and diagnostic substitution. If “toxins” are going to be blamed for increased autism, then they should be credited for the decreasing incidence of “retardation”.
    And 100 years ago, ADHD wasn’t recognized as a diagnosis. The kid would be put in a corner with a dunce cap on. Eventually, he would quit school, and work in a factory or on a farm. Modern life, unfortunately, is much less compatible with ADHD, therefore it becomes a problem and medication is deemed necessary.
    Also, I’m still waiting for an answer to my ongoing question: what are these “autoimmune diseases” that have “exploded” in incidence in children? Any of you trolls want to tackle this one? Citations and numbers would be nice. Thanks.

  29. #29 JGC
    Just noticed this response from Iliya
    February 21, 2015

    JCG my number 1 problem with vaccinating is you nor the medical establishment can explain with any certainty Why asthma ADHD, Autism, Allergies Auto immune diseases, learning disabilities are exploding and why we have growing chronic diseases in children.

    First, we do understand why many of these are increasing in Incidence (the increased incidence of autism spectrum disorders, for example, is largely a function of broadened diagnostic criteria and increased surveillance).

    But let’s assume we didn’t understand why they are increasing, just for the sake of argument: by what rational argument should we attribute the increase to vaccination rather than some other cause for which there also exists no evidence of a causal association and for which there also exist large epidemiological studies providing evidence against the existence of a causal association?

    Surely your scale argument doesn’t simply reduce to “Beats hell out of me…let’s just blame vaccines”?

    They are not sure what is causing all of it but they are 100% sure its nothing in the vaccines?

    As close to 100% as can be scientifically established, yes, because for better thna decade w’ve looked extensively for evidence of such a causal association between vaccines and ASD’s, ADHD, allergies, etc. an haven’t found even a hint of oney.

    Do you have any evidence at all to the contrary?

    Because the pharmaceutical industry is not interested in funding studies to find out you naive smart ass!

    The pharmaceutical industry, however, isn’t the only one funding and conducting such studies: multiple independent researchers, government and private public health agencies have also looked for evidence of a causal association and found nothing. Certainly you’re not suggesting tht literally every researcher, drug development corporation, public and private public health agency in every nation on the planet are all part of some vast conspiracy to conceal real risks associated with routine vaccination, are you?

    For that matter, what’s to prevent organizations like NVIC and AoA from funding and conducting studies and submitting their results to first tier scientific journals for publication?

    SMH Its because there is not a better adjuvent available so we are stuck with it.

    Not because there are no better adjuvants available, but instead because there’s no evidence suggesting a need to replace or remove the curretnly used adjuvants.

    Re: “I do my homework”, if that’s true however did you miss the part where the researchers state they exposed the mice that were the subjects of their study to aluminum at concentrations either 5.2 times or 6.8 times that which a human would ever see during a vaccination?

    There are zero long term safety studies on Aluminum or Mercury. NONE! NOT 1 Can you please cite 1? I would love to read it. Sadly they don’t exist and citing authority or the CDC as your answer will not cut it.

    Trivially false statement: I was able to pull up “Toxicokinetics of mercury after long-term repeated exposure to thimerosal-containing vaccine”(PMID: 21252391) in approximately 20 seconds of searching onPubmed. If you’ve haven’t seen such studies, it’s simply because you never bothered to look.

    I want to know where nearly 5000 mcg of INJECTED not INGESTED aluminum end up in a babies body after 5 years 10 years and 20 years.

    In the sewers, but it won’t take years. Following innocculation thimerosal metabolizes to release ethyl mercury which is rapidly cleared from the body, primarily by fecal excretion. It has a half life of elimination of just under 4 days. In newborns blood levels of circulating ethyl mercury return to pre-vaccination levels 30 days after innocculation (See Pichichero et al, PMID: 18245396)

    .Are we following up to find out? NOPE

    See above: we already have. See Pichichero, see Burbacher (PMID: 16079072)

    Do the kidneys get rid of it? or does it get stuck in the organs disrupting cells?

    No and no. Again: the principle route of ethyl mercury elimination following vaccination is through fecal excretion.

    Yes in fact it does end up mutating genes and other cell structures causing a whole host of diseases.

    And your evidence that it does in fact end up mutating genes and cell structures and that it causes a whole host of diseases would be…what, exactly? Be specific.

    I mean, do do actually have some…don’t you?

  30. #30 Brian Deer
    February 21, 2015

    Isn’t it odd that Merck funded a certain Andrew Wakefield to conduct a study to see if vaccines caused Crohn’s disease? GSK, and any number of other drug companies also funded him.

  31. #31 Narad
    February 21, 2015

    I do my homework!

    In that case, you should have no problem demonstrating that, y’know, “ASIA” actually exists. Or that you know what “begging the question” means.

  32. #32 iliya
    February 23, 2015

    JGC First, we do understand why many of these are increasing in Incidence (the increased incidence of autism spectrum disorders, for example, is largely a function of broadened diagnostic criteria and increased surveillance). And you actually believe that? Autism went from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 68 and its better diagnosis? Ok sure buddy only fools or people with an agenda say that.

    Surely your scale argument doesn’t simply reduce to “Beats hell out of me…let’s just blame vaccines”?

    Its NEVER EVER EVER the vaccines according to the medical establishment. How could they possibly implicate themselves? they can’t but outsiders can like Dr Suzzane Humphries a kidney doctor who states that baby and other defecting MD’s who have connected the dots and discovered holy shit its been the vaccines the whole fucking time!! No wonder the establishment has has to hype up the measles epidemic and fear monger people into getting vaxxed. They must keep up the sharade.

    NOW

    In the aluminum study I cited it shows that
    Intramuscular injection of alum-containing vaccine was associated with the appearance of aluminum deposits in distant organs, such as spleen and brain where they were still detected one year after injection. Both fluorescent materials injected into muscle translocated to draining lymph nodes (DLNs) and thereafter were detected associated with phagocytes in blood and spleen. Particles linearly accumulated in the brain up to the six-month endpoint; they were first found in perivascular CD11b+ cells and then in microglia and other neural cells.

    Despite it’s environmental abundance, Al is not an essential element for living organisms, and no enzymatic reaction requires Al. Al is reported to influence more than 200 biologically important reactions and to cause various adverse effects on the mammalian central nervous system (CNS) (Table 1). These include crucial reactions for brain development such as the axonal transport, neurotransmitter synthesis, synaptic transmission, phosphorylation or dephosphorylation of proteins, protein degradation, gene expression, and inflammatory responses.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3056430/

    What the fuck are you talking about? JGC? Clearly the aluminum is circulating then depositing in organs. And that is what is causing the mutagenic activity. and this is why its not being detected in the blood stream shorty after testing. I know you can’t handle the truth because you have been programmed subconsciously by the medical establishment your entire life. ITs time for some deprograming JGC and a fresh reboot of the truth. . And this is exactly why we have so many health problems that the establishment can’t fucking seem to figure out. There is no way any of these ingredients are causing any health problems? Are you really going to sit here and buy into that? Go right ahead to your Demise

    sucrose, phosphate, glutamate, gelatin, monosodium L-glutamate, sodium phosphate dibasic, potassium phosphate monobasic, potassium chloride, sodium phosphate monobasic, potassium chloride, EDTA, residual components of MRC-5 cells including DNA and protein, neomycin, fetal bovine serum, human diploid cell cultures (WI-38), embryonic guinea pig cell cultures, human embryonic lung culturessucrose, sodium citrate, sodium phosphate monobasic monohydrate, sodium hydroxide, polysorbate 80, cell culture media, fetal bovine serum, vero cells [DNA from porcine circoviruses (PCV) 1 and 2 has been detected in RotaTeq. PCV-1 and PCV-2 are not known to cause disease in humans.]formaldehyde, glutaraldehyde, aluminum hydroxide, Vero (monkey kidney) cells, calf serum, lactalbumin hydrolysate, polysorbate 80, neomycin sulfate, polymyxin B, Fenton medium (containing bovine extract), modified Latham medium (derived from bovine casein), modified Stainer-Scholte liquid medium YEAH man these ingredient Boost your immune system! BAHAHA

    All I need is reasonable doubt regarding vaccines safety and I will not be vaccinating my son EVER and this study is proof that it does. The medical establishment has fucked up over the years on lots of things. like cholesterol levels guidelines putting millions of people on Statin drugs unnecessarily.

    Go ahead keep believing Aluminum is safe to inject in babies to the tune of nearly 5000mcg by 18 months and that the metal is totally safe?
    Enjoy that LIE

    See we believe what we want to believe dont we? We have to reinforce our beliefs or else it get very uncomfortable. There are studies on both sides of the debate but your side has the pharmacutcal industry with a trillion reasons to bend the truth! We have not motive but the truth! I dont make any money coming here nor does NVIC get paid to promote non vaccinating. follow the money for t he love of god
    Its been interesting debating you folks but common sense RULES here. not 100 years of medical propaganda that you all believe. I will not be returning to this circle Jerk of delusion to see who can blow his load the farthest.

    Authority is not truth Truth is authority!!!!!!

  33. #33 TBruce
    February 23, 2015

    @iliya:

    Will I get my RDA of vitamins if I swallow your word salad?

    Speaking of vitamins:
    http://www.salon.com/2015/02/21/vitamins_are_making_america_less_healthy/

  34. #34 Narad
    February 23, 2015

    nor does NVIC get paid to promote non vaccinating. follow the money for t he love of g[-]d

    OK.

  35. #35 a-non
    February 23, 2015

    @iliya

    Yeah, cause those ads on Age of Autism don’t pay for anyone’s salary, like former reporters.

    Or Barbara Loe Fisher/Arthur doesn’t take a salary from the NVIC and use its credibility to garner speaking fees.

    Or Generation Rescue doesn’t pull over $1 million per year and spends roughly a quarter of that on specious things like travel(?).

    Or the not-anti-vax-but-really-anti-vax docs like Jay Gordon and (not Silent) Bob Sears who have unabashedly turned their practices into catering to those who don’t want to vaccinate and want a doctor to tell them it’s ok not to.

    Or the other quacks, like the Joe Mercolas of the world, who tell you to avoid vaccines while touting all sorts of other things to keep you healthy which they so conveniently have on their websites.

    Or Andrew Wakefield, who was in cahoots with trial lawyers and wanted to come up with his own vaccine – things for which there is copious documentation.

    I could then go on to talk about the Body Haleys and Mark and David Geiers of the world, but hopefully you get the point.

    For all of these people, there is a vested, PERSONAL stake in keeping the “vaccines are harmful and/or cause autism” lie going. So let’s not pretend there’s no financial incentive for these people to make stuff up either. And at the end of the day, I’ll go with the people whose research is better and whose results are verifiable and make sense – and it certainly isn’t someone who’s telling me that vaccines don’t work and/or cause autism in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

  36. #36 JP
    February 23, 2015

    They must keep up the sharade.

    Is this, like, some type of red wine spritzer?

  37. #37 squirrelelite
    February 23, 2015

    Iliya is obviously a true believer in the aluminum causes Alzheimer’s hypothesis.

    But for a more balanced look at the overall picture, I found this review article.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4131942/

    I liked this paragraph in the conclusion:

    Nevertheless, it is most likely that the most important factor in maintaining the Aluminum Hypothesis is that the average life span is longer. Because longevity has increased and the incidence of AD increases dramatically with age, the frightening specter of the inexorably deteriorating AD patient (and the emotional and financial costs associated with their care), once fairly uncommon, is now all too familiar to much of the normal population. Although tremendous advances have been made in understanding the pathological mechanisms of this disorder, the etiology is still unclear and the available treatments, although somewhat palliative, are not impressively efficacious. As a result, fear of developing AD is widespread.

    There may be a modest effect due to lifetime ingestion of aluminum in drinking water http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2215380/
    but, compared to that, the minute amount of aluminum injected in vaccines is almost small enough to be effective by Prince Charles’ standards.

    A much more plausible relation is simply that people are more likely to live to be old enough to develop Alzheimer’s if they are vaccinated and don’t die of all those VPD’s first.

  38. #38 Helianthus
    February 23, 2015

    @JP

    They must keep up the sharade.

    Is this, like, some type of red wine spritzer?

    I would have thought it was a Persian princess.

  39. #39 herr doktor bimler
    February 23, 2015

    ITs time for some deprograming JGC and a fresh reboot of the truth.

    10 quatloos that Iliya is a Red-Piller.

  40. #40 JGC
    February 23, 2015

    And you actually believe that?

    It isn’t a question of believing or not believing it, Illiya: that’s what the available evidence indicates. See, for example, PMID:16585296; PMID: 17975721;

    Autism went from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 68 and its better diagnosis?

    But it isn’t autism that’s gone from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 68, Illiya, that number reflects an increase in new diagnoses of autism, not a measured increase in the actual number of people with autism in the population. It reflects a broadening of diagnostic criteria, such that individuals who previously would not have received a diagnoses are now diagnosed as on the spectrum (can you say Asperger’s, boys and girls?); diagnostic substitution, such that people who previously would have been given a diagnosis other than autism (mental retardation or developmental language disorders, for example) are not instead being diagnosed as autistic; and increased surveillance. In fact, the recent study that arrived at the 1 in 68 incidence rate explicitly identifies an improved ability on the part of clinicians to identify ASD’s as a significant contributor to the observed increase
    See PMID:16585296; PMID: 17975721; PMID:18384386 for some of that evidence
    .

    Ok sure buddy only fools or people with an agenda say that.

    So now your entire argument reduces to nothing other than “That evidence doesn’t count. Because I say so. And you’re just stupid”? Really?

    Its NEVER EVER EVER the vaccines according to the medical establishment.

    This statement is false: in the first several years following Wakefield’s publication of his fraudulent lancet paper the ‘medical establishment’ took the possibility of a causal association as a serious possibility, expending tens of millions of dollars and conducting very large epidemiologic studies looking for additional evidence of a causal link. It’s only when these studies found instead no evidence of a link (and the fraudulent nature of Wakefield’s publication was uncovered) that the conclusion it was not the vaccines became the consensus.

    they can’t but outsiders can like Dr Suzzane Humphries a kidney doctor who states that baby

    Let’s assume that Humphries does say what you think she says: what evidence does she offer to demonstrate what’s she’s saying is actually true? Be specific. After all, we’d be foolish to simply take someone who wholeheartedly believes in the efficacy of magic water (i.e., homeopathy) at their word, agreed?

    and other defecting MD’s who have connected the dots and discovered holy shit its been the vaccines the whole fucking time!!

    What do you mean by ‘discovered’, if anything other than “got around to reading ingredients listed in the package insert”? It’s not like it was ever a secret that vaccine formulations contained aluminum adjuvants, thimerosal as a preservative, etc.

    What the fuck are you talking about? JGC? Clearly the aluminum is circulating then depositing in organs. And that is what is causing the mutagenic activity. and this is why its not being detected in the blood stream shorty after testing.

    I’m talking about the fact that the paper you cited provides no evidence that aluminum from vaccines circulates and is deposited in organs nor that aluminum from vaccines is mutagenic. I’ll note also that you haven’t provided evidence that at levels of exposure achievable by routine vaccination aluminum inhibits any of those crucial processes necessary for brain development you list. (I’m starting to think your real problem is that you don’t understand what evidence in support of your claims would look like if it did exist.)

    There is no way any of these ingredients are causing any health problems?,blockquote>
    You haven’t identified any evidence demonstrating that at the levels of exposure achievable by routine vaccination they are causing health problems, let alone sufficient evidence to counter the large body of evidence that they do not.

    Are you really going to sit here and buy into that?

    Until sufficient evidence to counter the large body of evidence that they do not is presented, yes. So—got any?

    YEAH man these ingredient Boost your immune system!

    Define “boost’ as you’re using it here, please—and note again the evidence that exists indicates that they where they do affect the immune system they do so in a well understood and beneficial manner (for example, use of aluminum adjuvants result in increased immunogenicity, resulting in the production of protective antibody titers with largely reduced total antigen exposures).

    All I need is reasonable doubt regarding vaccines safety and I will not be vaccinating my son EVER and this study is proof that it does.

    I’m afraid I’m going to have to ask you to define “reasonable” here as well, as clearly you’re not using it in the same way the rest of the English speaking world does.

    Go ahead keep believing Aluminum is safe to inject in babies to the tune of nearly 5000mcg by 18 months and that the metal is totally safe?

    Again, not a question of belief but a conclusion drawn from a large body of evidence finding no evidence of risk associated with aluminum exposure as a consequence of routine vaccination. See, for example, PMID:22001122
    Now, your evidence that aluminum adjuvants at levels of exposure achievable by routine vaccination is not totally safe would be…what, exactly?
    Oh, that’s right. You don’t have any.

    There are studies on both sides of the debate but your side has the pharmacutcal industry with a trillion reasons to bend the truth!

    Why then have you so far been unable to identify any studies which support your side of the debate?

    Its been interesting debating you folks but common sense RULES here.

    This isn’t a debate, however: it’s a discussion of the safety and efficacy of routine and seasonal vaccination, and it’s evidence rather than common sense that matters in this forum.
    So, once again—got any in support of your various claims?

  41. #41 JGC
    February 23, 2015

    forgive the blockquote failure

  42. #42 JP
    February 23, 2015

    ITs time for some deprograming JGC and a fresh reboot of the truth.

    10 quatloos that Iliya is a Red-Piller.

    Another 10 that he’s a Serbian apologist.

  43. #43 Gray Falcon
    February 23, 2015

    Let me remind you, Iliya, that you bragged about making money off of supplements.

  44. #44 AdamG
    February 23, 2015

    Clearly the aluminum is circulating then depositing in organs. And that is what is causing the mutagenic activity. and this is why its not being detected in the blood stream shorty after testing

    What is mutating? How were the mutations measured? What is the biological mechanism that deposits aluminum into ‘organs’, making it undetectable in the bloodstream?

  45. #45 AdamG
    February 23, 2015

    I don’t need detailed information like that to make a decision maybe you do but I don’t. I use simple logic

    Iliya is happy to remain ignorant, as long as he gets to be right. Even when it affects his son’s health!

  46. #46 Gray Falcon
    February 23, 2015

    Also, aluminum is still the most common metal in the Earth’s crust. Basic “logic” suggests that if it was half as awful as Iliya claimed, we’d all be dead.

  47. #47 JGC
    February 23, 2015

    They must keep up the sharade.

    I admit when i read this line I imagined it in the voice of the late Peter Cook, reprising the clergyman from The Princess Bride

    Mawwiage, that bwessed awwangement, that dweam within a dweam…

  48. #48 iliya
    February 23, 2015

    JGC is quite the writer and somewhat witty but lacks common sense and I have a hunch he is one of the payed writers on this blog to try and squash me. He’s pretty good but the TRUTH cannot be silenced and the fact that I can easily find 100’s of studies linking vaccines to health problems is more than enough evidence for me to PAUSE and think objectively. And when his best answer is diagnosis? you know you got him on the ropes taking body blows. And when you ask Doctors what causes all these diseases like cancer or Autism or MS or Lupus and they are clueless and don’t have any good answers its time to stop trusting them especially when Chiropractors and naturopaths have excellent answers to all these questions.

    For Example Disease is caused by 2 major factors Toxicity and deficiency 95% of all diseases are linked to these 2 factors. That explains a lot of things but your medical Doctor has no good theory or answer. they tell you bad genes or bad germs or bad luck or the environment, hereditary or congenital. So you are hopelessly in the dark as a patient and a slave to their ignorance and DRUGS.

    When the Truth is simple………….TOXICITY AND DEFICIENCY (nutrient)

    What do vaccines have in them? Toxins like aluminum polysorbate 80, formaldehyde. MSG, Cows Blood Etc. Use your fucking noodle people.

    Why are 10’s of 1000’s or parents 100% sure their child was damaged by a vaccine? They know their child intimately yet they are disrespected and brushed aside?

    You trust pharmaceutical Companies and their funded research? They censor the studies and spoon feed them to Medical Doctors and Pediatricians. Just ask the Marcia Angell Please tell me how sanctified and holy that resereach is JGC. there is FRAUD everyewhere especially when there is a Global empire in the the 100’s of billions to keep people on the never ending drug program.

    At the end of the day the vaccine story doesn’t add up at all. And people are waking up to this.

    its crystal clear! And then there is this? sweet mother of God.

    200 Evidence-Based Reasons NOT To Vaccinate – FREE Research PDF Download!

    The media, your pediatrician, politicians and health authorities like the CDC and FDA claim that vaccines are safe and effective. So why do hundreds of peer-reviewed studies indicate the opposite is true? Read, download, and share this document widely to provide the necessary evidence-based counterbalance to the pro-vaccination propaganda that has globally infected popular consciousness and discussion like an intractable disease.

    It is abundantly clear that if the present-day vaccine climate, namely, that everyone must comply with the CDC’s one-size-fits-all vaccination schedule or be labeled a health risk to society at large, is to succumb to open and balanced discussion, it is the peer-reviewed biomedical evidence itself that is going to pave the way towards making rational debate on the subject happen.

    http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/200-evidence-based-reasons-not-vaccinate-free-research-pdf-download

  49. #49 Militant Agnostic
    February 23, 2015

    Gray Falcon

    Let me remind you, Iliya, that you bragged about making money by deceiving people into thinking they could make money off of supplements.

    FTFY

  50. #50 doug
    February 23, 2015

    So which supplements will cure the following:
    Tuberculosis
    Rabies
    Malaria
    African sleeping sickness
    Typhoid fever
    Amebic dysentery
    Gas gangrene
    BSE
    Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease
    Erysipelas
    Necrotizing fascitis
    Sarcoptic mange
    Foot and mouth disease
    Glanders
    Cholera
    Plague
    and don’t say methenal

  51. #51 AdamG
    February 23, 2015

    it is the peer-reviewed biomedical evidence itself that is going to pave the way towards making rational debate on the subject happen.

    Iliya, why have you refused to have a rational debate about the peer-reviewed biomedical evidence itself? You repeatedly cited a press release as evidence that vaccines cause ‘disease.’ I asked you very basic questions about the peer-reviewed article referenced in the press release, which you’ve ignored.

    So again, I’ll ask you to define in your own words what the ‘epi-genome’ is.

  52. #52 doug
    February 23, 2015

    Adam, I think part of the problem is that there isn’t a lot of quality peer-reviewed material at The Youniversity of Tube (not to be confused with Universität Tübingen).

  53. #53 doug
    February 23, 2015

    ^
    ^
    ^
    oops; misspelled methanal
    Of course iliya should have instantly known what I meant, even with the error. Maybe I should have just sneezed.

  54. #54 sadasd
    February 24, 2015

    “Do the research, people!”

    Thanks, but I’ll pass on the hot-off-the-press data published in the North Dakota Society of Integrative Biomechanic Pay To Publish Whateverdafuk’s latest edition, thanks. Also, USE MORE CAPS next time; talk about a dogwhistle.Aroooooo!

  55. #55 Narad
    February 24, 2015

    JGC is quite the writer and somewhat witty but lacks common sense

    I take it that would be the sort of “common sense” that leads to this sort of catastrophe as viewed through a temporal lens:

    I will not be returning to this circle Jerk of delusion to see who can blow his load the farthest.

  56. #56 gaist
    February 24, 2015

    the fact that I can easily find 100’s of studies linking vaccines to health problems is more than enough evidence

    First off, did you read the studies or was just the number of search engine hits sufficient? Second, why not share links to the studies, rather than anti-vaccine web sites and news reports? Surely you have by now figured out that people who frequent this blog want to read the source material for themselves, and are not really convinced by somebody saying “I have this much evidence and that should suffice for you too.”

    And when you ask Doctors what causes all these diseases like cancer or Autism or MS or Lupus and they are clueless and don’t have any good answers its time to stop trusting them especially when Chiropractors and naturopaths have excellent answers to all these questions.

    Well, if that is the case, you really should help distribute all the quality evidence naturopaths and chiropractors have supporting their excellent answers. I mean, surely they have verified their age-old wisdom with experiments and tests, otherwise we could just claim “Odin” as an answer to everything. It’s even simpler than your toxins and deficiencies, by half.

    And as naturopaths and chiropractors have the answers, do you make any categorical difference between the two? Does chiropractic subluxation help equally well with toxins and deficiencies? Is chiropractic sublixation better for some diseases than acupuncture, homeopathy or herbal medicines (other than vitamins), or vice versa?

    Do you feel about acupuncture, homeopathy, reiki, reflexology and the likes are equally effective, or do some of these modalities work better than others? If yes, which ones do you feel are effective and which aren’t. If no, why offer each and everyone of them if they are equally good for toxins and deficiencies, sorry, TOXINS and DEFICIENCIES?

    What are your feelings about the hypothesis that cancer is a mushroom, or that all diseases are caused by excess acidity? Both claims have been promoted by naturopaths.

    200 Evidence-Based Reasons NOT To Vaccinate – FREE Research PDF Download!

    Do you think the pdf contains 200 studies recommending against vaccinations, or are you just linking to it without reading?

    The very first study in the list concludes (emphasis mine): ” most deaths in the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System are attributed to sudden infant death syndrome, and that sudden infant death syndrome has not been associated with vaccination.

    Clicking on a few links from the list, there’s this one which checked states in it’s conclusion (emphasis mine): ” A timely two-dose MMR vaccination schedule is recommended, with the first dose at 8 months and the second dose at 18-24 months. An MR vaccination speed-up campaign may be necessary for elder adolescents and young adults, particularly young females.”

    There was one by the Geier team, and a couple behind a paywall.

    So far, I for one remain unimpressed.

  57. #57 iliya
    February 24, 2015

    Listen the fact that there is ANY controversy at all over injecting chemicals in babies is a humongous red flag! That alone is reason for pause. The fact that the authorities use the Law to force people is also telling. If they are so fucking great we would all be lining up for the shots. And the fact that there is a growing minority of physicians choosing not to vaccinate and the fact that Chrios have not been vaccinating for decades tells me there are 2 scientific evidence based sides to this story. Not just 1 that we keep being fear mongered into. And the fact that Pharmaceutical companies cannot be sued for damages vaccine act of 1986 is also DAMNING. This is just way to easy to debunk and the only reason I have any confidence is my knowledge of the power of optimal nutrition. I know for a fact it works and our company has the proprietary research to prove it. @Adam the epi-genome is directly impacted by its environment. Starvation or nutritional deficiency directly impacts the epi-genome through methylation and shuts off genes. Same with environmental toxins like aluminum salts injected into infants or pesticides like glyphosphate in GMO foods. Dr Humphries presents all this and you tell me if she sounds like a loon. she is extremely credible in my opinion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZe99K12740

    This is scary stuff and why I am so opposed to vaccines. I think we are on the cusp of discovering that Vaccines are contributing factors to ALL diseases! not the only factor but a factor.

    No thanks I will follow the organic wholistic route and take my chances with measles naturally.

  58. #58 AdamG
    February 24, 2015

    the epi-genome is directly impacted by its environment.

    You still are completely unable to tell us, in your own words, what the epi-genome is.

  59. #59 JGC
    February 24, 2015

    JGC is quite the writer and somewhat witty but lacks common sense and I have a hunch he is one of the payed writers on this blog to try and squash me.

    I receive no compensation of any kind, other than the personal satisfaction of providing accurate information to counter the many false claims made by anti-vax prosyletizers, for anything I’ve written and posted to these comments, Iliya.

    But let’s, for the sake of argument, assume that this were in fact the case. The obvious question which follows would be “Do you have a point?”

    None of the arguments I’ve offered would somehow cease to be valid, none of the evidence I’ve noted and the citations I’ve provided in support of my arguments would somehow cease to exist, and certainly no actual evidence demonstrating a casual association between vaccines and ASD’s would spontaneously arise out of thin air if I were in fact being paid to post to this forum.

    He’s pretty good but the TRUTH cannot be silenced and the fact that I can easily find 100’s of studies linking vaccines to health problems is more than enough evidence for me to PAUSE and think objectively.

    Why haven’t you, then? Certainly none of the articles you’ve cited in our exchanges to date demonstrate a causal association between routine vaccination and the health problems you claim vaccines cause.

    But let’s make it as easy as possible for you to support your claims with evidence: simply provide a citation to whatever publication you personally consider to be the single most credible and compelling peer-reviewed journal article providing evidence of a causal association between routine vaccination and the development of autism spectrum disorders, etc. and we’ll discuss it.

    And when his best answer is diagnosis? you know you got him on the ropes taking body blows.

    I’m afraid I know nothing of the sort (and you’ll note I provided ciataions supporting the contribution of broadened diagnostic criteria, diagnostic substitution and increased surveillance to the observed increased incidence of ASD diagnoses, while you’ve to date provided no evidence that vaccination is causally linked to ASD’s.)

    And when you ask Doctors what causes all these diseases like cancer or Autism or MS or Lupus and they are clueless and don’t have any good answers its time to stop trusting them especially when Chiropractors and naturopaths have excellent answers to all these questions.

    I’ll play along: what answers do chiropractors and naturopaths have to the question of what causes autism spectrum disorders, and—this is the important part—exactly what evidence do they offer demonstrating the answers they believe they have are correct? Be specific.

    For Example Disease is caused by 2 major factors Toxicity and deficiency 95% of all diseases are linked to these 2 factors.

    Citations needed: what evidence demonstrates that 95% of all diseases are linked to toxicity and deficiency? Be specific,

    That explains a lot of things but your medical Doctor has no good theory or answer.

    No, it doesn’t: you claim it explains a lot of things but in the absence of evidence that 95% of all diseases actually are caused by toxicity and deficiency it explains nothing.

    they tell you bad genes or bad germs or bad luck or the environment, hereditary or congenital.

    Some diseases are demonstrably genetic in origin (cystic fibrosis, for example), a result of infection by those ‘bad germs’ you mention (bacterial meningitis, for example), a result of environmental exposures (mesothelioma, for example), are hereditary (Huntington’s chorea, for example) and/or are congenital (fetal alcohol syndrome, for example).

    So you are hopelessly in the dark as a patient and a slave to their ignorance and DRUGS.

    It’s not their ignorance that’s your problem, Iliya.

    When the Truth is simple………….TOXICITY AND DEFICIENCY (nutrient)

    Again, citations needed: what evidence demonstrates what you believe to be a simple truth actually is true? Be specific.

    What do vaccines have in them? Toxins like aluminum polysorbate 80, formaldehyde. MSG, Cows Blood Etc.

    And your evidence that at levels of exposure achievable by routine vaccination these ‘toxins’ are harmful would be…what, exactly?

    Oh, that’s right. You don’t have any.

    Why are 10’s of 1000’s or parents 100% sure their child was damaged by a vaccine?

    Primarily because they have embraced a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy, coupled with a liberal easeoning of “What else could it be?”. Other factors (confirmation bias, etc.) also play a part.

    And it sure doesn’t help that anti-vaccination organizations like Age of Autism and the inappropriately named NVIC keep feeding them false information regarding vaccine safety.

    They know their child intimately yet they are disrespected and brushed aside?

    In the absence of actual evidence that they are correct, and in the face of a very large body of evidence indicating they are mistaken in their belief, it isn’t disrespectful at all to refuse to accept their claims at face value.

    You trust pharmaceutical Companies and their funded research?

    There’s no need to: the studies addressing vaccine have been published and are available for inspection, and not all such studies have been funded by pharmaceutical companies. Vaccine safety has been studied by multiple independent researchers, institutions, public and private health agencies in multiple nations for decades, Iliya.

    You’re not really proposing there exists (and has existed for decades) a world-wide conspiracy to conceal the ‘truth’ about vaccines and autism, are you?

    They censor the studies and spoon feed them to Medical Doctors and Pediatricians.

    Citations needed: what evidence demonstrates that studies have been censored to a sufficient degree to make our understanding of vaccine safety unreliable?

    Just ask the Marcia Angell

    What evidence does Marcia Angell offer demonstrating that the risks associated with routine vaccination exceed the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to infection by the diseases they protect against? Be specific.

    Please tell me how sanctified and holy that resereach is JGC.

    Strawman, iliya: I’ve never described research as either sanctified or holy.

    There is FRAUD everyewhere especially when there is a Global empire in the the 100’s of billions to keep people on the never ending drug program.

    Citations truly, madly, desperately needed: provide evidence that there is a global conspiracy (i.e., “FRAUD everyewhere” [sic]) to keep people on a never ending drug program. As always, be specific

  60. #60 Gray Falcon
    February 24, 2015

    Iliya, don’t try to scare us into submission. We aren’t going to trust you because you say so. Try to educate us.

  61. #61 TBruce
    February 24, 2015

    There is FRAUD everyewhere especially…

    …in multilevel marketing schemes of overpriced and useless supplements.

  62. #62 Gray Falcon
    February 24, 2015

    To clarify: Iliya, all you’ve done is basically claim that there are “toxins” that affect the “epi-genome”, but you didn’t give us any evidence except a press release that had nothing to do with vaccines. How do we know you’re not just lying to sell us vitamin supplements? That is a serious question, you’re quick to accuse others of fraud and conspiracy, you should be ready to defend yourself against the same.

    Matthew 7: Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

    King James Version (KJV)

  63. #63 Sarah A
    February 24, 2015

    Listen the fact that there is ANY controversy at all over injecting chemicals in babies is a humongous red flag!

    By the same logic, the fact that there is ANY controversy over whether or not the Holocaust actually happened – regardless of how unsubstantiated and ideology-driven that controversy is – should be taken as prima facie evidence that the Holocaust is a hoax.

    Illya@449: You trust pharmaceutical Companies and their funded research?

    Illya@458: I know for a fact it works and our company has the proprietary research to prove it

    My irony meter didn’t so much explode as lost its will to live.

  64. #64 Sarah A
    February 24, 2015

    ^That last line should say “loose” rather than “lost.”

  65. #65 gaist
    February 24, 2015

    Listen the fact that there is ANY controversy at all over injecting chemicals in babies is a humongous red flag! That alone is reason for pause.

    Do you also pause because there is (arguably) controversy about the Earth being flat, or inside out, or black cats causing bad luck, the effects of curses and evil eyes on crops and personal health? Or controversy over immigration?

    Obviously there are degrees of controversy although I feel we wouldn’t agree on the exact degree.

    But let’s put it another way. Let’s turn the table.

    You’ve clearly admitted yourself – with “here are 2 scientific evidence based sides to this story” that there is considerable, evidence-based opposition to your idea that vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases (and, it seems, that they “are contributing factors to ALL diseases!” . There is, in fact, obvious opposition to that idea. Why doesn’t that controversy give you pause?

    I’m not just twisting words, I’m honestly curious and intrigued.

    The fact that the authorities use the Law to force people is also telling.

    The vaccines aren’t forced, as such, they (or allowed exceptions) are mandated for access to public schools, the army and (at least in most countries) jobs within public health care. If you choose to opt out of these, you nor your children are forcibly vaccinated.

    And to scout the extent of your conviction and argument, do you think there should be a law about wearing seat belts? Driving tests before cruising the open roads? Laws against not feeding your child because you’d rather spend the money yourself? Having to have a prescription from a licensed doctor to buy certain drugs? Private or public schools setting their own requirements for potential students without government or outside control?

    If they are so fucking great we would all be lining up for the shots.

    With the exception of flu shots, most are. I think the average vaccination rate in the US ranges per vaccine from 70% to 95%, the average being in the low 90s. I might be wrong, but not by much.

    Pharmaceutical companies cannot be sued for damages vaccine act of 1986 is also DAMNING.

    The “vaccine court” has lower standard of evidence than regular courts, and you don’t have to pay the legal fees yourself.

    the only reason I have any confidence is my knowledge of the power of optimal nutrition.

    …uh….

    the only reason I have any confidence is my knowledge of the power of optimal nutrition.

    Seriously?
    That’s like saying that you know airplanes are bad and evil and contribute partly to ALL human ailments because you have confidence in your knowledge of the power of bicycles.
    Nutrition has very little to do with the science of vaccination, and just because nutrition works it doesn’t mean vaccines wouldn’t.

    Dr Humphries […] is extremely credible in my opinion.

    Suzanne Humphries promotes homeopathy. How do you feel the underlying principles of homeopathy match the underlying principles of your company’s proprietary brand of nutrition? (I’m assuming your not selling bottles of vitamin c with “a pinch of the stuff diluted into volume of water equal to the Atlantic ocean”, which is only a 12C dilution (they often go up to 30C, but can be exceedingly higher). And if you accept homeopathic principles, do you think your company is wasting it’s potential, offering un-potentisized nutrients?

    I think we are on the cusp of discovering that Vaccines are contributing factors to ALL diseases! not the only factor but a factor.

    And your evidence for this is…….(drumroll)…..

    No thanks I will follow the organic wholistic route and take my chances with measles naturally.

    What about other diseases? If your son steps on a rusty nail, or gets bitten by a stray dog, would you have him injected with the tetanus vaccine or not?

    This is just way to easy to debunk

    I couldn’t have said it better myself. Although I think we still won’t agree.

    If you have evidence, share it, please, for the sake of everybody else’s children.

  66. #66 Sarah A
    February 24, 2015

    ^And that last line should say “lose” instead of “loose.” Sigh.

  67. #67 JGC
    February 24, 2015

    Listen the fact that there is ANY controversy at all over injecting chemicals in babies is a humongous red flag! That alone is reason for pause.

    Why should there be controversy or pause, when there is evidence that vaccines significantly reduce the incidence of serious infectious diseases like mumps, measles, pertussis, etc. and no evidence that at exposure levels achievable by routine vaccination the chemicals in their formulation which you’re concerned about (aluminum salts, formaldehyde, etc.) are toxic or otherwise harmful?

    The fact that the authorities use the Law to force people is also telling.

    The authorities are not doing this though, are they? You‘re free to choose not to vaccinate yourself or have your children vaccinated if that is your wish. It’s true that, in order to protect others from increased risk of infection, consequences may extend from your exercising the free choice not to vaccinate (you may be ineligible for employment in healthcare professions, your children may not be eligible for enrollment in public schools, etc.) but that’s hardly the same thing, is it?

    If they are so fucking great we would all be lining up for the shots.

    Clearly that isn’t the case—despite the demonstrated safety and efficacy of routine vaccination, enough people are choosing not to ‘line up for the shots’ that we still see outbreaks like the current measles outbreak occurring.

    And the fact that there is a growing minority of physicians choosing not to vaccinate and the fact that Chrios have not been vaccinating for decades tells me there are 2 scientific evidence based sides to this story.

    Only scientific evidence demonstrating the risks associated with routine vaccination were equal to or greater than the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to infection would indicate there were two scientific evidence based sides to thestory.

    Got any?

    Your evidence that the number of physicians choosing not to vaccinate is growing significantly would be…what, exactly? Be specific.

    And the fact that Pharmaceutical companies cannot be sued for damages vaccine act of 1986 is also DAMNING.

    Pharam companies can still be sued for damages with respect to manufacturing defects in their products, and the creation of the NVICP isn’t evidence that vaccines are neither safe nor effective.

    This is just way to easy to debunk and the only reason I have any confidence is my knowledge of the power of optimal nutrition.

    Your evidence demonstrating that ‘optimal nutrition’ is as or more effective at reducing the incidence of infectious diseases as is routinechildhood vaccination would be…what, exactly? Be specific.

    I know for a fact it works and our company has the proprietary research to prove it.

    You realize that evidence you are unable or unwilling to produce—even when you try to handwave around that inability by labeling the evidence as proprietary—is indistinguishable from no evidence at all?

    Would you accept that a new drug or vaccine was safe and effective on no basis other than a statement by the developing pharma company caliming “We know for a fact it works and our company has the proprietary research to prove it”?

    Same with environmental toxins like aluminum salts injected into infants or pesticides like glyphosphate in GMO foods.

    Please provide evidence that aluminum salts, at exposure levels achievable by routine childhood vaccination, causes detectable and significant epigenetic change in the gene expressions of the individuals inoculated.

    Dr Humphries presents all this and you tell me if she sounds like a loon. she is extremely credible in my opinion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZe99K12740

    Iliya, your link is to a video on you tube—surely you realize that such videos do not constitute evidence? Please provide instead citations to the peer-reviewed first or second tier journal articles where Dr. Humphries has presented the evidence in support of her claims.

    This is scary stuff and why I am so opposed to vaccines.

    Nonsense—Two Girls One Cup is scary stuff, but Humphry’s video is neither meanigful nor scary.

    I think we are on the cusp of discovering that Vaccines are contributing factors to ALL diseases! not the only factor but a factor.

    Citations needed: why do you think this, given that so far you’ve been able to idnetify no evidence that vaccines are contributing factors to any diseases?

    No thanks I will follow the organic wholistic route and take my chances with measles naturally.

    Which is your right, but while doing what steps will you take to be responsible and avoid placing others at increased risk of infection? Walk me through the precautions you’ll take.

  68. #68 herr doktor bimler
    February 24, 2015

    I will not be returning to this circle Jerk of delusion to see who can blow his load the farthest.

    Evidently Iliya’s curiosity about circle-jerk load-blowing outweighs any concerns he might have about sticking to an announcement! It’s kind of flattering.

  69. #69 herr doktor bimler
    February 24, 2015

    “Circle Jerk of Delusion” released their first album “Dance of the Seven Veils of Maya” in 2008, IIRC.

  70. #70 Iliya
    February 24, 2015

    I finally figured it out. The medical establishment is a religion and vaccination is baptism. Doctors are priests. The indoctrination starts early getting you to actually think…….your baby needs a hep b vaccine? Holy fuck! There is no way I can compete with that. Your so brainwashed you can’t even watch the Humphries video because it would conflict with your religious medical beliefs. I’m out of here for good. I have presented a common sense view point backed up by science. Yet you still do not accept it. That folks is dogma and religion. It’s been a good lesson for me now I know why you can’t question vaccines. It’s a deep rooted mythological belief based on fear that has been drilled into everyone subconsciously. Just questioning it and asking about safety I’m some sort of nut or science denier? there are zero long term studies on 4925 fucking Mcg of aluminum injected into babies by 18 months old and I am out of line for asking? Wow wow wow the mind control is complete!

    The more you depend on forces outside of yourself, the more you are dominated by them.” –Harold Sherman

    When science cannot be questioned, it is not science anymore: it is religion. Finally epiphany! Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free

  71. #71 Bill Price
    February 25, 2015

    The indoctrination starts early getting you to actually think

    That would be ideal. Why don’t you try it?

    I’m out of here for good.

    Can we count on that?

  72. #72 JGC
    February 25, 2015

    Iliya, can you identify by number the post in which you presented this common sense view point backed up by scientific evidence? Because try as I may quite frankly I can’t seem to find anything resembling one in any of your posts.

    I’m sure I’m just overlooking it…

  73. #73 Narad
    February 25, 2015

    It’s a deep rooted mythological belief based on fear that has been drilled into everyone subconsciously.

    It seems a bit late to be “trying” to resort to Joseph Campbell.

  74. #74 Narad
    February 25, 2015

    [“]The more you depend on forces outside of yourself, the more you are dominated by them.” –Harold Sherman

    Man, “Collective Evolution” is not doing you any favors.

  75. #75 Chris
    February 25, 2015

    Iliya: “When science cannot be questioned, it is not science anymore: it is religion. Finally epiphany! Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free”

    Okay, then give me the truth about which of the supplements you sell that will prevent measles. Provide actual evidence that particular magic Advocare formula prevents a serious viral infection.

  76. #76 herr doktor bimler
    February 25, 2015

    fear that has been drilled into everyone subconsciously.

    The ScienceBlogs comment system really needs to implement the ‘fnord’ tag.

  77. #77 herr doktor bimler
    February 25, 2015

    glyphosphate in GMO foods
    Made-up words like “glyphosphate” are not ideal for convincing people that you know what you’re talking about.

  78. #78 AdamG
    February 25, 2015

    I am out of line for asking? Wow wow wow the mind control is complete!

    So Iliya, what would you tell a potential AdvoCare customer who asks to see any studies of your product’s efficacy or safety, short or long term?

  79. #79 novalox
    February 25, 2015

    @iliya

    Thanks for your posts. I’ve used them to convince 2 people not to use advocare, since they see that you are a typical representative for the company, they don’t want to be associated with that type of crazy.

  80. #80 gaist
    February 25, 2015

    I have presented a common sense view point backed up by science. Yet you still do not accept it.

    Where? People have been asking for study citations and evidence since your first arrival here. Presenting those would be backing your claims up with science. So far you’ve only offered us youtube videos and news articles. You wouldn’t chance your mind based on similar “evidence”, and yet you expect us to, and indeed, attempt to ridicule us for not immediately accepting the anti-vaxxer wisdom.

    That folks is dogma and religion.

    I agree. What you are doing is dogmatic, and no doubt within some definition of religion, religious as well. You are absolutely confident you are right, you dismiss any evidence to the contrary as bought or wrong or inaccurate, and think your word should be sufficient to turn anybody in to the flock.

    Just questioning it and asking about safety I’m some sort of nut or science denier?

    There’s asking questions, and then there’s asking questions.

    I think curiosity is amendable, and should be encouraged, but what you are doing here isn’t’ curiosity. You’re not really interested in learning new stuff and challenging your current knowledge. You’re trying to score points and monger fear.

    Your “we are on the cusp of discovering that Vaccines are contributing factors to ALL diseases!” without backing it up with any sources why you think that is not “questioning vaccine safety”, it is making unsubstantiated claims, which is pretty much all that you’ve accomplished* here.

    When science cannot be questioned, it is not science anymore: it is religion.

    Pray tell, what would change your mind about vaccines? Or the POWER of NUTRITION?

    I can tell you what would change my mind, and probably most others here as well. Quality evidence, Not insinuations, not accusations of global conspiracies, not curse words and random CAPITALIZATIONS. Quality evidence.

    Who is the dogmatic one here?

    * I think I’m being generous with my choice of words here.

  81. #81 Gray Falcon
    February 25, 2015

    Iliya, is it true that your Vitamin E supplements contain large quantities of tocopherols and tocotrienols, substances, that in sufficiently large quantities, as little as a single gram a day, act as a severe anticoagulant and cause life-threatening bleeding problems?

  82. #82 Sarah A
    February 25, 2015

    I finally figured it out read this in an article on whale.to and decided to appropriate it without attribution. The medical establishment is a religion and vaccination is baptism. Doctors are priests.

  83. #83 Sarah A
    February 25, 2015

    ^FTFY

  84. #84 JGC
    February 25, 2015

    Oh, and Iliya–about the contribution of boradened diagnostic criteria, improved surveillance, etc., to the observed increase in ASD diagnoses? A recent study (January 2015) for you to consider: Explaining the increase in the prevalence of autism spectrum disorders: the proportion attributable to changes in reporting practices (PMID: 2536503) which finds that changes to reporting practices in Denmark accounts for as much as 60% of the observed increase in the prevalence of ASD’s in that nation.

  85. […] Bill Maher, in almost every episode of his cable show, espousing views which are anti-GMOs, anti-vac… […]

  86. #86 David
    Camas, WA
    March 16, 2015

    The bottom line for the Vaccination Nazis is to protect people that need the herd immunity? Yet the vaccinated are the ones spreading the disease for 2 weeks while they “shed”.
    People who cannot be exposed to diseases need to stay away from crowds. That is a fact in their lives we are not going to be able to change for them.
    If this was just the tail wagging the dog it would be relatively harmless. This is forcing people to inject known poisons into their children because “science” thinks that is the smart thing to do in 2015. At least Bill Maher was able to point out a few of the ill conceived “science sure things” of the past. When he is right he is right – which isn’t often btw.

  87. #87 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    March 17, 2015

    David, vaccine shedding is a lie.
    You are a fool.

  88. #88 LinnieMae
    Minneapolis
    March 20, 2015

    Interesting read here about the Waldorf Schools. Now it all makes sense: A good friend of mine, a homeopathist, took her son out of the public school and sent him to one of those. I wondered why she drove him across town to school instead of finding one closer to home. She’s never met woo she doesn’t like and was always vocal about her anti-vaxx views.

    Trouble is, that Waldorf School is less than 1/2 mile from my place.

  89. #89 Lawrence
    March 20, 2015

    I don’t understand how any rational person, looking at the philosophy espoused by Waldorf Schools, could think they would be any place to educate a child…..

  90. #90 LinnieMae
    Minneapolis
    March 20, 2015

    My experience w/r/t the politics of anti-vaxxers is that they tend toward liberal, at least where I live. I know I notice that more because I hang out in liberal circles, though. I used to be anti-vaxx (and anti-GMO, anti-BigPharma, etc) without knowing the science. Then last year I started wondering why you don’t see farmers and scientists protesting GMOs, and commenced to read. That was my gateway issue to sciencing. Now I can’t stop reading and learning.

    I’m seriously amazed by what I’m finding out–though it has put me at odds with most of my friends. I used to think we liberals were the party of rationality, and now I’m seeing a whole different picture. Anti-corporate, anti-science paranoia is really no different than the anti-government, anti-science paranoia of the right. In one respect, it’s worse: In online conversations where fellow liberals disagree with the science, the argument always includes the claim that I must be a paid shill for Big-[fill in the blank]. Because, you know, all those big powerful forces are all out to get us. They can’t acknowledge that I would have an honest difference of opinion; I must be one of **THEM**.

    Now that I’m woo-free, I’m seeing it everywhere.

  91. #91 Chris
    March 20, 2015

    LinnieMae, someone posted this cartoon on SBM that you might enjoy:
    http://inthesetimes.com/images/made/images/cartoons/uploads/bo150211_850_623_s.png

  92. #92 LinnieMae
    March 20, 2015

    Chris, I love it! Glad my kids were vaccinated, long before I went temporarily insane with a bad case of the woo.

  93. #93 T Khoza
    Pretoria
    March 30, 2015

    Nothing is wrong with anti-GMO, as long as your basis for your stance is scientific. Show me a solid, scientific position–heck, even a tentative-but-still-plausible position–that is against genetically modified organisms, and we can have a reasonable discussion.

    The problem with most (sincere) anti-GMOers is that their opposition isn’t to the techniques or science of GMO. They oppose GMO for political, ethical, and socioeconomic reasons (read: Monsanto), dressed up as unassailable scientific logic. Those concerns are valid, but call them what they are. Do not spin it as a scientific controversy where in fact none exists.

    Alternatively, their opposition consists of ranting on about a process they don’t even pretend to try to understand, which is nothing more than setting afire a straw man of their own creation.

    U13078713

  94. #94 A Coz
    Cape Town
    April 2, 2015

    This whole article originated from the idea of whether vaccinations should or should not be used. The other issues, such as GMOs, stemming from the article and interview are merely a result of the analogies used to emphasize the perspective of vaccinations doing more harm than help. And so the core issue is whether or not vaccinations should or should not be used.

    Yes, it is true and it is seen over and over again through the years that vaccinations have definitely been a success in terms of protecting ourselves from various diseases. But there are cases were vaccines do more damage than god. Perhaps it is not the theory of the vaccination that is doing more harm than good, but the method in which the vaccine is given. In the past, each vaccine was administered separately. Nowadays, vaccines are given in one shot. Perhaps the administration of all these vaccines in one go is the issue, not the vaccine itself.

    However, times change and so does medication, diseases, and even our bodies. It is important to realise that the same method used in the past will nt necessarily work in the future. In order to improve medication in general, and more specifically, vaccines, we need to be open to suggestions that go against our beliefs. We need not agree with these suggestions, but it is important we understand the logic and reasoning behind the suggestions in order to keep improving things such as vaccines.

    Humanity has only got this far because of individuals questioning and constantly pushing for change. We will never know if there is a better option for the vaccine, or even work out what is going wrong with the current vaccines, if we do not question and research it.

  95. #95 Chris
    April 2, 2015

    A Coz: “But there are cases were vaccines do more damage than god”

    Please provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers showing any pediatric vaccine causes more harm than the disease.

    “Perhaps it is not the theory of the vaccination that is doing more harm than good, but the method in which the vaccine is given. In the past, each vaccine was administered separately.”

    How long ago was that “past”? Diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis were combined in one vaccine in the 1940s, the Salk polio vaccine always had three strains and the MMR was introduced in 1971.

    “Nowadays, vaccines are given in one shot. Perhaps the administration of all these vaccines in one go is the issue, not the vaccine itself.”

    Really? Do tell us about that one vaccine that consists of hepatitis (both A and B), diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, HIB, polio, influenza, measles, mumps, rubella, varicella, HPV, and a couple of others.

  96. #96 TBruce
    April 2, 2015

    “Nowadays, vaccines are given in one shot. Perhaps the administration of all these vaccines in one go is the issue, not the vaccine itself.”

    What issue?

  97. #97 Militant Agnostic
    April 2, 2015

    But there are cases were vaccines do more damage than god.

    Have you read the Old Testament? When have vaccines killed all of humanity except for a handful of people?

  98. #98 JGC
    April 2, 2015

    But there are cases were vaccines do more damage than god.

    Which cases are these, Coz? be specific.

    Perhaps it is not the theory of the vaccination that is doing more harm than good, but the method in which the vaccine is given.

    Perhaps it is not the theory of the vaccination that is doing more harm than good, but the method in which the vaccine is given.

    Again: which vaccines are doing ‘more harm than good’? be specific, dientifying both what harm the vaccine is doing and what evidence demonstrates that harm is actually caused by the vaccine.

    In the past, each vaccine was administered separately. Nowadays, vaccines are given in one shot. Perhaps the administration of all these vaccines in one go is the issue, not the vaccine itself.

    What evidence suggests the risks associated with the use of combined vaccines (e.g., DTaP, MMR) exceeds the risks associated with the use of multiple individual vaccines? Be specific.

    In order to improve medication in general, and more specifically, vaccines, we need to be open to suggestions that go against our beliefs.

    Only if there is an actual body of credible evidence supporting the validity of those ‘suggestions which go against our beliefs’.

    So–got any?

  99. #99 Andrew
    April 3, 2015

    I love Bill Maher and almost all of his views. I just wish he was fully anti-vaccine for all vaccines! I also wish he understood economics better and watched Bill Still’s documentaries and attacked the terrible banking and money system we unfortunately have in place.

  100. #100 NPhysPhd
    Boston
    April 19, 2015

    @JGC

    Oh the flu shot? One of the most heavily propagandize shots in the medical profession? Get me a real vaccine with a double blind saline placebo. MMR. DTaP/IPV/Hib. Etc.

    Good luck.

    P.S. How about the Flulaval?
    “There have been no controlled trials adequately demonstrating a decrease in influenza disease after vaccination with Flulaval.”

  101. #101 Dangerous Bacon
    April 19, 2015

    NPhysPhd implies that there have been no double-blind placebo-controlled trials of flu vaccine. That is incorrect.

    The following article describes numerous flu vaccine studies, including double-blind placebo-controlled ones. For example:

    ““We carried out a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial of inactivated and live attenuated influenza vaccines in healthy adults during the 2004-2005 influenza season and estimated both absolute and relative efficacies.”

    “RESULTS: A total of 1247 persons were vaccinated between October and December 2004. Influenza activity in Michigan began in January 2005 with the circulation of an antigenically drifted type A (H3N2) virus, the A/California/07/2004-like strain, and of type B viruses from two lineages. The absolute efficacy of the inactivated vaccine against both types of virus was 77% (95% confidence interval [CI], 37 to 92) as measured by isolating the virus in cell culture, 75% (95% CI, 42 to 90) as measured by either isolating the virus in cell culture or identifying it through real-time polymerase chain reaction, and 67% (95% CI, 16 to 87) as measured by either isolating the virus or observing a rise in the serum antibody titer. The absolute efficacies of the live attenuated vaccine were 57% (95% CI, -3 to 82), 48% (95% CI, -7 to 74), and 30% (95% CI, -57 to 67), respectively. The difference in efficacy between the two vaccines appeared to be related mainly to reduced protection of the live attenuated vaccine against type B viruses.”

    “CONCLUSIONS: In the 2004-2005 season, in which most circulating viruses were dissimilar to those included in the vaccine, the inactivated vaccine was efficacious in preventing laboratory-confirmed symptomatic illnesses from influenza in healthy adults. The live attenuated vaccine also prevented influenza illnesses but was less efficacious. (PubMed).”

    https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/flu-vaccine-efficacy/

    Certainly influenza vaccines have not been as effective as other routine vaccines, and improved flu vaccines are needed. What we have now is still better than doing nothing.

  102. #102 Narad
    April 19, 2015

    P.S. How about the Flulaval?
    “There have been no controlled trials adequately demonstrating a decrease in influenza disease after vaccination with Flulaval.”

    I suppose this moldy oldie fits right in with having taken over two and a half months to come up with that comment.

  103. #103 Safety mom
    Chicago, IL
    April 25, 2015

    Watch “Trace Amounts.” An adult’s story of his journey through mercury poisoning. Mercury is not out of vaccines. Safe vaccines are what people want. Skepticism makes better science. Science you don’t agree with isn’t quackery.

  104. #104 brian
    April 25, 2015

    Safety mom, how is it that the filmmaker’s claim that he was poisoned by a tuna sandwich-worth of mercury doesn’t raise any red flags for you?

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