Pharyngula

I am a very naughty boy

I’ve barred the doors — I’m sure that any moment now, a squadron of goose-stepping nuns will come marching up the street to wag their fingers at me and rebuke me for what I’ve started. It seems the Youth of Today are going on YouTube and…flaunting their disrespect for crackers!

People can find a video of almost anything on YouTube: babies’ first steps, Saturday Night Live skits, news clips, concerts and now – to the shock of Catholics everywhere – desecration of the Eucharist.

YouTube has long been a destination for Catholics seeking video clips of Masses, apologetics lectures or devotions, but now Catholic outrage is growing as the site has become home to a string of videos depicting acts of Eucharistic desecration, including flushing a host down the toilet, putting one in a blender, feeding one to animals, shooting one with a nail gun and more.

They don’t provide links, perhaps fearing that this could become even more popular. Here you go, somebody is having lots of fun with his crackers. Gosh, maybe more people will be publicly committing heresy now!

You can guess what the response is.

“I don’t know what to say,” said a stunned Msgr. C. Eugene Morris, professor of sacramental theology at Kenrick Glennon Seminary in St. Louis, when told about the videos. “I am outraged that YouTube is tacitly supporting this and giving this behavior an audience.”

Hey, Eugene! It’s just a cracker! Get over it — as long as people aren’t disrupting your services or pilfering chalices, there has been no interference with your religious freedom, and no harm done.

Thomas Serafin is president of the International Crusade for Holy Relics, an internet watchdog group of Catholic laymen. His group has been fighting online affronts to the Catholic Church, including the sale of the Eucharist and of relics of the saints online, for more than a decade.

“YouTube has to be held accountable and stopped,” Serafin said from Los Angeles. “If Catholics don’t take a stand right now, they can expect such outrages to continue.”

Serafin added: “The internet is, in many ways, a new world, and it is our duty to evangelize this world, but we have to speak up and be heard to do that.”

Thomas and his organization are more than a little creepy — death cultists oblivious to their own bizarrely morbid obsessions. They have a right to evangelize if they want, but others have a right to mock and laugh at them, too. These wackos are organizing now, though, to get YouTube to censor and blacklist anyone who visibly makes fun of religious beliefs. YouTube has not cave in yet, though, and I hope they hold out — it is absurd to say that Catholic videos of blood and bones are not offensive, while videos of demolished bits of bread are outrages that must be yanked.

Serafin said people should call or write YouTube to demand that the videos be taken down. YouTube’s public relations email address is press@youtube.com

People who think YouTube should not be in the business of prosecuting blasphemy should also write and let them know that you are pleased they are not the religion police.

Now whose fault is all this? Mine. I am so proud.

One name still making the rounds in YouTube and bloggers’ discussions on Eucharistic desecration is Paul Z. Myers, the University of Minnesota professor who asked his blog readers in July to “score” him “some consecrated communion wafers.”

“If any of you would be willing to do what it takes to get me some, or even one, and mail it to me, I’ll show you sacrilege, gladly, and with much fanfare,” Myers wrote in response to the case of a University of Central Florida student who stole a consecrated host the previous month.

Myers later posted a picture of a host – which he claimed was consecrated and sent to him via mail – as well as pages from the Koran and atheist Richard Dawkins’ “The God Delusion” in a trash can, underneath coffee grounds and a banana peel.

As for the current YouTube videos, Dominique cited Myers as inspiration for the video series.

This is great! Everyone should join in! It makes me so pleased to see growing, vocal opposition to the fundamental absurdity of religion, do keep it up.

Of course, the price we pay is a lot of complaints back at us, which is fine — annoying, but it’s their right. Since I just got back from a long weekend, I thought I’d peek into the eucharist auto-trash folder and see what’s dribbled into my email lately, and you’ll find a sample below the fold. I just grabbed the top 15, so it’s also fairly representative of the content.

Most of these, by the way, are also being sent to President Bruininks and Chancellor Johnson, who, I’m sure, are thoroughly sick of them all. I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re filtering out anything that mentions “Myers”!

Your disciplining of Paul Z. Myers for desecrating the the Eucharist was not adequate. You will have to do more like terminating him or giving him a very long suspension. People are outraged at his behavior. Even if we do not share someone’s beliefs we do not show our disrespect in such an extreme way. I don’t think you recognize what has happened here. I advise you to rise to better than you have.


Dear Doctor Bruininks,

I recently learned of the actions of Professor Paul Myers at UMN in which he desecrated the Catholic Eucharist and then posted photos of the desecration on his website before disposing of it in the trash. Now why would a man in our hypersensitive, politically correct, multicultural society go out of his way to willfully and publicly offend one fragment of that society with whom he has no beef other than his rejection of their beliefs? Well, obviously it all has to do with Professor Myers’s attempt to self identify as a “controversial” , “iconoclastic”, and “tell it like it is” member of academia. Who knows what back-slapping and monetary/sexual favors will come his way as the result of his courageous stand?

The problem is, of course, that you can beat the tar out of the Catholic church with impunity. Kind of like that punk in the movie “Witness” who tormented the twice-as-strong, strapping young Amish man knowing full well that the Amish culture did not permit retaliation. I also recalled a comedy skit offered by Robin Williams in which he used his overrated and miniscule comic imagination to ridicule pro-life proponents. Writing the next day a critic referred to this performance as “controversial and brave”. The fact that you probably never heard of this part of his repertoire tells you all you need to know about how truly brave and controversial he was. Contrast that with Lenny Bruce who, the day after the Kennedy assassination, performed a comic skit mimicking and ridiculing Jackie Kennedy’s retreat over the back of the automobile after the bullets were fired. Now that was brave and controversial and members of the audience had to be restrained from lynching Mr. Bruce right there on the stage.

Had Professor Myers really taken a unique and courageous stand, I’m sure he would have suffered a fate similar to Professor Larry Summers at Harvard. But instead of slapping this small minded man silly for his self-aggrandizing actions made at the expense of UMN’s reputation, you respond with hand-wringing over academic freedom and privacy rights. Had he posted on his web a photo of a polar bear that he slaughtered as a protest against global warming, I wonder if your respect for his privacy would have been equivalent. No, change that. I don’t wonder.

I make sure I use my mailing list to enlighten my circle of friends regarding the craven actions of your professor and your equally cowardly response, and I’ll ask them to forward the information to their circle of friends. Hopefully I’ll be able to create some significant level of the well-deserved disrespect for your University and its tinhorn biology teacher.

Sincerely,

John Conwell


Paul Z. Myers,

Now that you have desecrated the Eucharist and offended me and over a billion Catholics, I would like you to publicly desecrate the Koran.

I’m waiting to see that marvelous display of “academic freedom.”

David Lanser


Dear Dr. Myers,
As you are a scientist, you are objective.
As a scientist, I am objective. But I also know that there is an existence I cannot see. If someone else does not believe the same, I do not criticize them.
Why do you have a problem with the belief system of the Catholic Church? Why does it disturb you? From a historical perspective, the Catholic Church originated the university system that you enjoy so much.
To actively desecrate the Eucharist, in which you do not believe, has no meaning for you. It is an expression of an emotional or spiritual disturbance in someone who is usually logical in approach. Your hostility is a symptom, and you are using it to persecute. If I were not already Catholic, I would run to join up. A belief system so maliciously treated must have something of value as its basis.
If you are open-minded, I challenge you to say one sentence each day-“God, if You are real, prove it to me.”

Sincerely,
Judith McGuinn, MD


I’m terribly sorry that you saw fit to desecrate the Holy Eucharist and show total disrespect for 67 million Catholics nationwide.Your bizzare behavior won’t be tolerated.You certainly owe all Catholics an apology.Knock it off.
Sincerely,
Carl R. Carieri


Dear President Robert Bruinks,

Today I received the information regarding your biology professor Paul Zachary Myers who had desecrated the Holy Eucharist and suffered no penalty. I was really shocked. I am from Minnesota, Winona County. Years ago I was told that one of my cousins lost his faith at the University of Minnesota. Now I can understand why. I beg you to do what is in your power to eliminate this professor and others who would like to destroy the Church from your staff.

Sincerely,
Marie Louise Jilk
Northfield, Illinois


Gentlemen and Lady,

We are a worldwide church of one billion people and 60 million in the USA. We love our Church and believe in its teachings. All we ask is that you respect our beliefs and leave us alone. We do not want our Eucharist belittled and desecrated. It is our belief and faith that Jesus is truly there and through the centuries there have been many miracles to prove it, if one takes the time to research this beautiful faith, founded by Jesus Himself. You will know this when you die. In the meantime, especially Dr. Myers, I hope you will mind your own business and grow up. We have freedom of religion in America — we also need to respect others’ beliefs. If that student took the Eucharist from the Church, it was wrong, and Dr. Donohue had every right to object and do what he did to defend it. He will be rewarded — will you?

Deanna Hohmann
West Caldwell, NJ


Mr. Meyers,

You really have some demented ideas. From your sacrilegious misuse of the Eucharist to your attempts to trash Mike Koelzer I really have to wonder what your real problem is. It’s plain to see you have no regard for God or for innocent human life. I do hope you get some professional help and I will pray for you. May the Holy Spirit change your heart and mind. Remember, Jesus does love you!

Mrs. Deborah Gallo


Dear Professor:
Jesus freely submitted to crucifixion and death on the cross as a sacrifice to atone for our sins. In fact, in His great love he has revealed to St. Mary Alacoque that even if yours was the only soul to die for it would still be worth His life. This sacrifice is renewed everyday through the Eucharist at Catholic masses throughout the world, where Jesus becomes truly present; body, blood, soul and divinity.
How unfathomably generous that God would permit himself to be veiled behind the most ordinary of materials to teach us what true humility means and provide manifold graces to poor sinners (myself included). Not only have you chosen to reject this marvelous gift which helps lead us to salvation, but you have committed the gravest of sacrileges. Please consider deeply what you have done and repent of this horrific act. It is never too late to seek the Lord’s forgiveness. He loves His lost sheep so very deeply despite the wounds they inflict on Him every day.
Eternity is a state to which there is no end. Are you willing to gamble that if you are wrong on this point, you are going to spend eternity in ceaseless torment apart from the Living God? I cannot imagine a scarier prospect. If anything, stop your persecution of the Catholic Church, for you are attacking the millions of faithful when you mock and mistreat Her.


I had never heard of the Morris campus of the University of Minnesota until one of your tenured faculty took it upon himself to desecrate the Holy Eucharist, a sacrament of the Roman Catholic Church.

It seems pretty obvious that your Dr. Paul Z. Myers has a problem above and beyond his hatred of Catholicism. In his current state, are the Catholic students in his classes safe?

Why don’t you put him on sabbatical and let the mental health professionals take him away for a nice respite? (Even Nancy Pelosi would understand the nature of his dastardly act.)

Maybe that would quiet down Bill Donohue of the Catholic League. In the meantime, why not visit his website at www.catholicleague.org.

I imagine a few of the Catholics, Protestants, Jews and Muslims that I’m blind-copying on this email will visit the site, assess the commotion created by Paul Z. Myers and elect, perhaps, to check in with you regarding their reactions to what Dr. Myers did and what you have not done, so far, in response to his actions.

Donohue, although a New Yorker, is an Irish Catholic of the stripe that I grew up with in Chicago.

Chicago Catholics understand Donohue because his ire reflects theirs but we don’t understand Myers nor your tolerance of him beyond the fact that he has tenure.

Is there any possibility that Bruininks and Johnson quietly agree with Myer’s histrionic behavior?

Is it possible that the Morris campus suffers from pandemic anti-Catholicism–and the world needs to know?

Maybe the Catholic press needs to survey the situation on a national level to see if Donohue has a legitimate complaint or is simply the victim of that gene so many Irish strive to keep under control–hyperbole stoked by righteous rage.

I suspect that as long as Donohue breathes we’ll learn more about the “Morris Three,” as some now call this gathering of Myers, Bruininks and Johnson, as well as their fellow travelers in Morris, MN.

Good luck in the deluge.

Donal F. Mahoney


Perhaps you will not even read this.

It is time for academia to stand up against all intolerance and not just ignore offending 24% of the population of the USA.

Anti-Catholicism is one of the last glaringly acceptable exceptions for passing a test of “tolerance” among the enlightened ilk. If anything of the sort was done to blacks, homosexuals, Jews, or Muslims there would be a swift penal reaction from your administration; we all know that to be true.

You have a chance to do the right thing. He should be on probation at the very least. If something like this happens again, I’m sure many names will become more familiar in Catholic circles and perhaps many e-mail boxes will be a bit jammed. That’s much better than what will happen to professor Myers if he continues to offend Muslims. We Christians reason with persecutors and pray for them, none of your University family will be safe if the Muslims feel slighted!

I hope you understand the difference. Godspeed, Fr. Kloster


Dr. Bruininks:

At the end of October my wife and I are travelling to Minnesota to see some old friends. We have never been to your state before and are excited to see all that we can. While we are there we want to tell our friends and to relay our message to their relatives and friends about the University of Minnesota.
We do hope they will be as disgusted as we are about a certain Dr. Myers on your faculty who, in the name of the university, has taken it upon himself to totally disrespect our beliefs in the Holy Eucharist of the Catholic Church.
We here in the East have heard about him and what he has done with what he irreverently calls a ‘cracker’.
It has lowered our opinion of not only your university but of the state in general since it is a state university. This could not happen at our beloved Penn State.
The tolerance you show for everything non-Christian is remarkable and your intolerance for anything Christian is more remarkable.
In conclusion, it might be suggested to that so-called professor who only studies little fish to show some courage and burn a Koran…after all, it’s only A BOOK !!

Sincerely

Michael F. Gallagher
Abington, PA


You kick against the goad.

Acts: 9:4-6
“And falling on the ground, he heard a voice saying to him: Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? Who said: Who art thou, Lord? And He: I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. It is hard for thee to kick against the goad.”

Instead of advocating peace, charity and good will to your fellow men, you give fire to the spirit of hatred and ill-will among your fellow men.

With your public rabid dog howling against the Holy Eucharist, and Jesus Christ you let the whole world know how spiritually in pain you are.

After you are dead, and your body turns to dust/ashes, the Holy Eucharist and Jesus Christ will still be alive and well. Read your history books. Jesus Christ yesterday, Jesus Christ today, and Jesus Christ tomorrow.

Death will come to let you know just how un-important you are.

You kick against the goad, and the GOAD will triumph.


Myers:

I’m seventy years old, and have been a Catholic all my life, as my ancestors.

I hold the Eucharist as a Holy precept, concept of my Catholic faith and resent anybody ridiculing or desecrating my religious faith.

You have a very hateful spirit. Like the howling dogs of hell you have so much hatred that you cannot tolerate spiritual joy so you attach it like a rabid dog.

Repent before you die howling like the dogs of hell with a soul full of hatred!! It’s not too late!! Give up your hatred!! Learn to give spiritual joy, goodwill and peace. With all your book learning you are still very ignorant. What so ever you sow you shall reap!


Hey Pauly,

All of the monkeys ain’t in the zoo; the rest are at the University of Minnesota. Even more illuminating is that all the assholes are there too, not to mention the bigots, frauds, perverts, and no-nothings. I think that pretty much covers the spectrum in the educated imbeciles category. But, you stand out a little more than others.

Your total inanity of blasphemy and sacrilege in desecrating a Sacred Host while disparaging Roman Catholicism is particularly interesting. But, you are indubitably an order of fries short of a Happy Meal – and to be pitied and prayed for. The “Light” will shine soon enough though.

Regardless of your self-imposed proclivities, Jesus believes you are someone special too. He died on the cross for everyone – the most arrogant, prideful, dishonest, disrespectful and hate-filled. But, He offered us all a chance to believe in Him, with the hope of salvation and eternal happiness after death.

Factoid:
No one is required to tolerate the intolerable. And you, Pauly, are . . . I-n-t-o-l-e-r-a-b-l-e!

I’d suggest passing this on to a few of your elitist contemporaries for translation purposes, but I ‘m sure they’re probably more than just one order of fries short of their Happy Meal. What say you, Pauly?

Have a nice day, eh? J

PS – I won’t pretend to understand your outrageous blasphemy and misconduct as long as you don’t pretend to misundersdtand my justified anger.


One other development: while the flood of email is waning, the physical, posted, stamped, US Postal Service-type mail has actually been increasing. I’m getting a couple of letters, all still similar in tone to the email, and just as repetitive, every day. Here’s one example, unsigned, postmarked from Saginaw, Michigan.

i-735cce3f98bd46ddb8cc338d0bb70715-saginaw_note.jpg
ATH Z MYERS
I wouldn’t want to be in your place when you draw Your Last Breath!!!
Not too far off!!

Most of the email on this subject is now automatically trashed on arrival, and I don’t read it. I do still open and read every letter sent to me, though…and I laugh my wicked laugh, as my regard for religious superstition is confirmed every single time.

Comments

  1. #1 Wch
    September 29, 2008

    PZ, stop being such a dick, will you?

  2. #2 Patricia
    September 29, 2008

    The father of affronts. You naughty man!

  3. #3 Rick R
    September 29, 2008

    “All we ask is that you respect our beliefs and leave us alone.”

    How much irony can one be expected to take before keeling over dead?

    Wait, maybe that’s their plan…

  4. #4 Jason Failes
    September 29, 2008

    Usually I can stop myself laughing out loud at work while perusing the various blogs, but the flustered and clueless complaints of the faithful, “YouTube has to be held accountable and stopped,” for example, had hot coffee streaming out my nose.

    Don’t they understand their humorlessness will only cause a redoubling of heretical hilarity?

  5. #5 Nerd of Redhead
    September 29, 2008

    Those letters are a real load of manure, which the truly religious mind appears to be full of. If you have started a trend, it is a good trend that may cause some of the religious to understand that they and their church have no “special” place in the world.

  6. #6 Celtic_Evolution
    September 29, 2008

    “I don’t know what to say,” said a stunned Msgr. C. Eugene Morris, professor of sacramental theology at Kenrick Glennon Seminary in St. Louis

    Really? There is seriously such a thing as “Professor of cracker magic”? Wow… the things some people actually get paid for… I’m clearly in the wrong business.

  7. #7 Andrew
    September 29, 2008

    These people complaining are truly pathetic. We need more acts of “harmful” desecration like this. :P One day religion will be widely regarded as the infection that it is.

  8. #8 Holbach
    September 29, 2008

    Ah, the poor outraged and offended catholics are continually being ridiculed and made to look like demented morons which they truly are. And good for YouTube for allowing the visual and abject insanity of their gutter religion to be seen by all. Why can’t they get their imaginary god to come down and put a stop to this hilarious desecration by smashing all those who have the unmitigated gall to blaspheme this insane nonsense? Where the hell is the mornon’s god?

  9. #9 archgoon
    September 29, 2008

    Hey, correct me if I’m wrong, but, um, didn’t PZ desecrate a Koran already?

  10. #10 SEF
    September 29, 2008

    If you are open-minded, I challenge you to say one sentence each day-“God, if You are real, prove it to me.”

    That’s not very open-minded of Judith the hypocritical creationist. She should be advocating (and trying herself, of course) a version more like “gods, if any of you are real, then prove it (and that you’re each worthy of being called a god, let alone being worshipped)”.

  11. #11 Leukoctye
    September 29, 2008

    Haha. Fatwa envy is so absurd – especially when the Muslim response to the Koran element of CrackerGate is a collective shrug.

  12. #12 Blake Stacey
    September 29, 2008

    archgoon (#9):

    Well, since we haven’t heard any complaints from the Muslims, we can’t tell for sure.

    (Maybe they’d get upset if he had used an Arabic copy — I think they don’t care so much about translations.)

  13. #13 Ryan F Stello
    September 29, 2008

    #2’s theory that you’d receieve “sexual favors” for this made my day.

    …Because, it’d be obviously bad if you did. Obviously.

  14. #14 Candiru
    September 29, 2008

    You’ve got to admit, that second message from John Conwell is at least cogent and well-written, despite being wrong in its sentiments. Much better than I have come to expect from those protesting PZ’s actions.

  15. #15 LisaJ
    September 29, 2008

    Waita go, PZ. Starting a YouTube trend, that’s amazing. You should be very proud!

  16. #16 Ouchimoo
    September 29, 2008

    ROFL!
    It spread like wildfire on YouTube! Go PZ let’s expand this trend even more! How bout one every street corner nailed to telephone poles. Photograph the cracker getting eaten by animals and post it up in grocery stores everywhere! Look at those silly Catholics squirm!

    Who knew war on religion would be so easy?

    *I’m not militant, this is just too funny. It’s like those bad jokes on Family Guy and elsewhere. It’s not funny but for some reason it runs so long it makes you blurt out laughing.

  17. #17 archgoon
    September 29, 2008

    Also what’s up with

    >>show some courage and burn a Koran…after all, it’s only A BOOK !!

    Is he arguing that PZ is a cowardly atheist who wouldn’t dare do something that might anger Muslims, or is he making the point that you shouldn’t burn books?

  18. #18 cicely
    September 29, 2008

    “All we ask is that you respect our beliefs and leave us alone.”

    Lie. All you ask is that your particular beliefs be given special treatment. All those other belief systems, though, are of course fair game.

  19. #19 Steve in MI, Sfs/PZM
    September 29, 2008

    Hopefully I’ll be able to create some significant level of the well-deserved disrespect for your University and its tinhorn biology teacher.

    PZ, what exactly is this new field of Tinhorn Biology that we’re now hearing about?

  20. #20 BobC
    September 29, 2008

    This is what America needs, more blasphemy, and more pointing at Christians and laughing at them.

  21. #21 Nicole TWN
    September 29, 2008

    Really, PZ, must we persist in all this wanton destruction of our sacred snack foods?

    Mmmmmmm, theophagy.

  22. #22 noncarborundum
    September 29, 2008

    . . . monetary/sexual favors . . .

    Say, where can I get me one of them there hosts? I feel a desecratin’ comin’ on!

  23. #23 Teh Merkin
    September 29, 2008

    If anything of the sort was done to blacks, homosexuals, Jews, or Muslims there would be a swift penal reaction from your administration; we all know that to be true.

    Know that to be true, do you now? Fucktard.

  24. #24 JStein
    September 29, 2008

    Glad to hear you started a craze, PZ.

    I hope people send emails to youtube, they deserve our support.

  25. #25 SC
    September 29, 2008

    How could you?! I have work to do!

    Y

    ouTube has long been a destination for Catholics seeking video clips of Masses, apologetics lectures or devotions,

    That settles it: Catholics are officially the lamest people on the internet.

    Msgr. C. Eugene Morris, professor of sacramental theology

    BWA

    Thomas Serafin…president of the International Crusade for Holy Relics

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  26. #26 Diello
    September 29, 2008

    “Who knows what back-slapping and monetary/sexual favors will come his way as the result of his courageous stand?”

    …I’M GOING TO GO DESECRATE SOME WAFERS RIGHT, RIGHT NOW.

  27. #27 cicely
    September 29, 2008

    Posted by: Celtic_Evolution | September 29, 2008 12:23 PM

    “I don’t know what to say,” said a stunned Msgr. C. Eugene Morris, professor of sacramental theology at Kenrick Glennon Seminary in St. Louis
    Really? There is seriously such a thing as “Professor of cracker magic”? Wow… the things some people actually get paid for… I’m clearly in the wrong business

    He teaches at a seminary, presumably a Catholic one. Cracker magic is their entire business.

  28. #28 Dahan
    September 29, 2008

    Judith McGuinn stated that,

    If I were not already Catholic, I would run to join up. A belief system so maliciously treated must have something of value as its basis.

    Yeah, that makes sense. For instance I know a lot of people who hate Fascism, racism, and sexism. People who believe in these things are often treated maliciously, where do I sign up?

    Nice use of logic. She’s a Doctor?

  29. #29 AnthonyK
    September 29, 2008

    “Professor of sacramental theology”! Arf,arf. snigger, phwtt! Hey if it’s fairy tale academia out there. can I be a professor of practical onanism? I wouldn’t even need to get up to do my research…

  30. #30 Ploon
    September 29, 2008

    Yeah, you are kicking against the GOAD, man! The GOAD, don’t you see?! You’re kicking it! It’s anarchy, man!

    Wow, I thought my English vocab was pretty good, but that doesn’t make any sense to me. Even with (or maybe in spite of) the bibble verse.

    As for the sexual favours, meh. As long as they are not provided by one of your students, who gives a hoot?

  31. #31 tsg
    September 29, 2008

    Is he arguing that PZ is a cowardly atheist who wouldn’t dare do something that might anger Muslims, or is he making the point that you shouldn’t burn books?

    It’s the former: fatwa-envy. The implication is that Catholics are all peaceful and full of Christian LoveTM (and thus an easy target) and that PZ is too afraid to desecrate a Koran because Mulsims are all fanatical nutjobs that will bomb his house. The really funny part is that he did and they didn’t.

  32. #32 Ouchimoo
    September 29, 2008

    I was really shocked. I am from Minnesota, Winona County. Years ago I was told that one of my cousins lost his faith at the University of Minnesota. Now I can understand why.

    Hmm she says that like it’s a bad thing. I’m confused.

    XD

  33. #33 Dahan
    September 29, 2008

    I suddenly feel the need to pull out the “Father Ted” series and watch an episode or two. Feckin’ Idjiots!

  34. #34 BobC
    September 29, 2008

    We do hope they will be as disgusted as we are about a certain Dr. Myers on your faculty who, in the name of the university, has taken it upon himself to totally disrespect our beliefs in the Holy Eucharist of the Catholic Church.

    These people are batshit crazy and they want everyone else to respect their insanity. It’s definitely time to increase the disrespect. Their priests have abused our nation’s children long enough. I’m not talking about their out of control sexual abuse. The worst problem is they lie to children, brainwash them, and make them stupid. Priests and their gullible customers are no better than terrorists. They deserve contempt.

  35. #35 karen
    September 29, 2008

    PZ
    You’re getting money and sexual favors for desecrating the cracker? DO tell!!!!!And does the Trophy Wife know about this?

  36. #36 AntimatterSpork
    September 29, 2008

    Who knows what back-slapping and monetary/sexual favors will come his way as the result of his courageous stand?

    Well, PZ?

  37. #37 Celtic_Evolution
    September 29, 2008

    Catholics (and Christians in general) have been the bullies in the schoolyard for a very, very long time. I laugh myself silly every time I hear these idiots whine about being persecuted.

    The bully’s finally getting his ass kicked. Now we can only hope that what follows, eventually, is what usually follows when a bully gets his comeuppance: he slinks away humiliated and is ne’er heard from again.

    Although somehow I doubt it. Sigh.

  38. #38 Bob
    September 29, 2008

    As a scientist, I am objective. But I also know that there is an existence I cannot see.

    FAIL.

    Know that, do you?

  39. #39 MS
    September 29, 2008

    As I have said before, when PZ did this I thought it was a little juvenile at first, and not really worthy of him, but when I saw the hysterical overreaction (and the continuing overreaction to the original incident in Florida that got this all started) I began to wonder if we didn’t actually need more of such “blasphemies.”

    It’s not like he disrupted a service, or broke into someone else’s property, for cryin’ out loud. He threw a cracker, probably worth less than a penny, into the garbage while talking a little trash. Some insecurity complex these Catholics must have.

  40. #40 tsg
    September 29, 2008

    The bully’s finally getting his ass kicked.

    The funny part is that the bully is being tortured by holding his stuffed rabbit hostage.

  41. #41 BobC
    September 29, 2008

    The brain-dead Catholics should be forced to watch this YouTube video: Priest off

  42. #42 Robert
    September 29, 2008

    Here’s a fun clip of eucharist desecration from The Atheist Experience: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG5QXyMGy0U

  43. #43 Holbach
    September 29, 2008

    Hey, all you blasphemers and sane people who are making my religion and morons the laughing stock on YouTube and elsewhere, I’m going to come and down and kick a lot of asses! Ridicule me, will you? I’m coming right down now to beat the freaking crap out all you rationalists who are making me look like shit! Here I come! I’ll be right down! Wait for me, for I am coming, and this time I mean it! I’ll be right down, and I’m not kidding this time, just you see if I’m not! Are you waiting? I’ll be there, just keep on waiting! Are you still waiting? I’m not bullshitting you this time, for this time I mean it, really I do! god

  44. #44 SC
    September 29, 2008

    Who knows what back-slapping and monetary/sexual favors will come his way as the result of his courageous stand?

    Well, it did follow suspiciously closely on the heels of this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJmAsIDh4EQ

  45. #45 D Christensen
    September 29, 2008

    Oh the sweet irony. I was enjoying a stack of saltine crackers with cheese when my RSS reader popped up this post.

    I’m anticipating a weekly youtube series called ‘Extreme Blasphemy’ in which the guest tries to out do their previous weeks form of desecration.

  46. #46 SteveM
    September 29, 2008

    Now why would a man in our hypersensitive, politically correct, multicultural society go out of his way to willfully and publicly offend one fragment of that society with whom he has no beef other than his rejection of their beliefs? Well, obviously it all has to do with Professor Myers’s attempt to self identify as a “controversial” , “iconoclastic”, and “tell it like it is” member of academia.

    Yes, why indeed would he do such a thing? So instead of trying to find out why, just make up something. The “desecration” was a response, not an original provocation. Morons.

  47. #47 Trish
    September 29, 2008

    That’s it. I want my own pet cracker now.

  48. #48 Erica
    September 29, 2008

    really? They’re all bent out of shape over people feeding those Styrofoam like disks to animals and stuff? That’s retarded. *takes apart a set a rosary beads to use as ammo in a pellet gun and shoots some Eucharist into itty bitty bits*

    *snicker*

  49. #49 tsg
    September 29, 2008

    As I have said before, when PZ did this I thought it was a little juvenile at first, and not really worthy of him, but when I saw the hysterical overreaction (and the continuing overreaction to the original incident in Florida that got this all started) I began to wonder if we didn’t actually need more of such “blasphemies.”

    That’s the point that most of the people that complained about CrackerGate missed: it was deliberate defiance of an unreasonable demand as a protest. I bet most of these people wouldn’t have any desire to mistreat a cracker if there weren’t such a large contingent of people advocating that nobody be allowed to.

    I may never in my life have a desire to say “wimble flimblenosher”, but let a bunch of people try to tell me I shouldn’t be allowed to and I’ll be saying it every chance I get.

  50. #50 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    September 29, 2008

    I hear there are other shocking things on you tube as well.

    For instance there is a whole string of “man hit in the testicles by innocent child” videos.

    As someone in possession of a set of testicles I find this terribly offensive and am starting a new campaign to stop the display of such bigotry towards my two buddies.

    “MY BALLS ARE NOT A SOURCE OF YOUR ENTERTAINMENT”

  51. #51 BobC
    September 29, 2008

    “YouTube has to be held accountable and stopped,” Serafin said from Los Angeles. “If Catholics don’t take a stand right now, they can expect such outrages to continue.”

    This Catholic asshole wants censorship of anyone who doesn’t respect his Jebus. Thomas Serafin, president of the International Crusade for Holy Relics, needs to be thrown out of this country or put in prison for treason.

    All Catholics are scum. There is no such thing as a moderate Catholic (or any other religious person). They all brainwash their children. That’s child abuse and there’s nothing moderate about abusing children.

  52. #52 Capital Dan
    September 29, 2008

    Hot damn! I love me some serious crazy religious hypocrisy on Mondays. Really, PZ. There’s simply no better way to start the week.

    I think you need to post the picture of the violated cracker again. Only, this time, please highlight the Koran in there. It’s like they don’t even see it.

  53. #53 Isherwood
    September 29, 2008

    I just about had a heart attack. I was sure I recognized that last note as the handwriting of my ritualistic fundy grandmother. I began breathing again when I saw the Michigan source. Still….

  54. #54 Ivar
    September 29, 2008

    To: AnthonyK #29
    Re: interest in practical onanism

    Wouldn’t that be taught in seminary?

  55. #55 Christopher
    September 29, 2008

    There are two things here I find fascinating: First, the religious folk who are sending you such lovely letters are upset that you have desecrated one of their symbols. I wonder if the venom they spew is, at least in part, frustration over the fact that as Atheists we have no sacred symbols for them to desecrate in turn.

    Second, since they rely on evangelism and proselytising, the Catholics have no right to the “live and let live” argument. If they consider it their duty to convert the unwashed masses, I think it is our duty to protect those masses from the Christian agenda.

  56. #56 PZ Myers
    September 29, 2008

    I’m sorry to break the sad news to you, but I’ve gotten zero (0) sexual favors for the cracker desecration. Being dashingly handsome and gentlemanly would seem to be a wiser strategy.

    I have gotten money out of it, though. Not enough to retire on, or buy a new car, or pay off the national debt, or anything like that, though. Creationism and televangelism are much more profitable, I’m sure.

  57. #57 tsg
    September 29, 2008

    All Catholics are scum. There is no such thing as a moderate Catholic (or any other religious person). They all brainwash their children. That’s child abuse and there’s nothing moderate about abusing children.

    Broad brush. I know quite a few Catholics who aren’t nutjobs.

  58. #58 raven
    September 29, 2008

    Serafin said people should call or write YouTube to demand that the videos be taken down. YouTube’s public relations email address is press@youtube.com

    Creepy Death Cultists is right. Haven’t they ever heard of freedom of speech? If someone sticking a paperclip into a cracker bothers them, they could just, you know, STOP WATCHING IT.

    People have been committing cracker abuse for weeks now. The world hasn’t ended, nobody has been turned into a frog, jesus hasn’t even called 911, or much of anything. It seems the vast majority of cathoics and people in general don’t really know about the plague of crackerists and don’t care.

  59. #59 Bjoern Brembs
    September 29, 2008

    Seeing that the guy in the article (and linked by PZ) calls himself FSMdude, I think the appropriate response by offended Catholics is to create their own YouTube channel and desecrate Spaghetti!
    OTH, that would be a fantastic meta-parody! Where’s the YouTube channel nailing spaghetti with a nailgun??

  60. #60 NathanielT
    September 29, 2008

    Interesting how the word “disrespect” is used by practically everyone objecting. I’m wondering what they think this word means. Do they honestly think that “respect” is their due? (If so, do they respect other religions?) Do they conflate “tolerance” with respect? Do they conflate “freedom of religion” with “respect for religion”?

  61. #61 tsg
    September 29, 2008

    I wonder if the venom they spew is, at least in part, frustration over the fact that as Atheists we have no sacred symbols for them to desecrate in turn.

    I don’t think they can wrap their heads around the idea of nothing being sacred, especially considering the number of “how would you like it if…” complaints I’ve seen.

  62. #62 Klaus
    September 29, 2008

    @39 MS: I think this is in the same league like the uproar from muslim countries over the Mohammed cartoons in a danish newspaper. I think the reaction from muslims as well the reaction of catholics justifies the ridicule that caused them (a bit of circular logic …).

    Two differences I see there: We don’t have any instable catholic dictatorships on the globe right now (the Pope is quite stable), and PZs act happened on the internet, so it is not as visible as cartoons in a newspaper.

    But anyway, this is very funny. And everytime I read “cracker”, I read it in a german accent, which makes it even cheesier.

  63. #63 CJO
    September 29, 2008

    A belief system so maliciously treated must have something of value as its basis.

    Hm. So I guess all those teeming millions of devout, adoring Catholics are evidence against its value as a belief system?

    Subtle is the lord!

  64. #64 noncarborundum
    September 29, 2008

    Had he posted on his web a photo of a polar bear that he slaughtered as a protest against global warming, I wonder if your respect for his privacy would have been equivalent.

    Yeah, destroying a living, breathing creature in protest against a phenomenon that’s threatening the existence of that creature’s entire species is certainly an apt parallel to the act of poking a hole in a wafer.

    At least he expresses his nonsense grammatically.

  65. #65 cactusren
    September 29, 2008

    What part of the name “YouTube” do these people not understand? The whole point is that anyone (that is, YOU) can post any video they want. Sure, I sometimes get offended when religious people spout their ridiculous ideas on YouTube, but I just laugh and move on. They have every right to proclaim their craziness to everyone on the internet. And atheists should have the right to point out that craziness.

  66. #66 SteveM
    September 29, 2008

    You know, everytime the page from the Koran that was trashed is brought up, some one will retort that only Arabic Korans are sacred. Somehow, I think it is only Catholics who are saying this. I would think a Muslim saying this would state his faith in Islam. I don’t think there has been a single comment about the desecration along the lines of “I’m a muslim and the english translation of of the Koran doesn’t count, but if it had been arabic I would be very angry”.

    I once asked a muslim friend about that whole “do not translate the Koran” thing. He kind of laughed that the “official” Arabic of the Koran is prettty much a dead language (or actually more like an artificial language) that no one understands anymore. That all Korans are essentially translations into modern Arabic and so that prohibition is really meaningless. Not saying that is the “official” position of Islam, but that’s what he told me.

  67. #67 Holbach
    September 29, 2008

    Hey YouTube! I’m coming down and create a gigantic tube and shove you and all your contributors and those rationalists on Pharyngula down the freaking thing and make you come out in another universe! Make fun of me and my creations eh? I’m still coming down as I promised, so you better wait for me so I can beat the crap out of the whole bunch of you. Those catholics may not be able to do anything but rant at you, but I’ll be down to give you what for! Better be prepared, for I am coming, no doubt about it and this time I am serious, and you’ll think the Rapture is kid’s play when I’m through with you! Think I’m kidding, eh? This time I really mean it, to prove to my faithful that I’m not bullshitting this time. Are you still waiting? Wait for me! god.

  68. #68 tsg
    September 29, 2008

    Do they conflate “freedom of religion” with “respect for religion”?

    They think it means “freedom of religion for me and no one else.”

  69. #69 Tom P.
    September 29, 2008

    I’m just asking but… how do they know that any of those YouTube videos actually involve a consecrated host? I am fairly certain that neither a professor of sacramental theology nor the president of the International Crusade for Holy Relics would be able to pick out the consecrated hosts from a pile of unconsecrated ones. And it is fairly easy to get unconsecrated hosts. You can even buy them over the internet from the same companies that supply churches. or you can make your own. It’s not like they are made from a secret recipe. And it’s not desecration even for a Catholic to sit in front of a football game and chomp on a bag of unconsecrated hosts with onion dip and then toss the rest in the garbage when they are done. In fact, how does anyone know that PZ actually used a consecrated host? How does PZ know that the host he used was consecrated? Basically, everyone is saying that it was a consecrated host because PZ says it was. “See this piece of toilet paper? It’s actually a consecrated host and I’m going to wipe my as with it.” Why do people believe PZ and not me? Just because the cracker that PZ used looked like a consecrated host? So what?

  70. #70 Jim
    September 29, 2008

    I’ve been committing blasphemy on a regular basis for years now, and have yet to receive a single sexual favor in return…what am I doing wrong?

  71. #71 Quiet Desperation
    September 29, 2008

    You *really* want to desecrate one?

    Cover it with that spray cheese goo from a can. That stuff is so evil I wouldn’t even eat it back in college.

    I hear that’ll get you teleported *instantly* to the inner circle of Hell, nestled right in between Satan’s butt cheeks. Not even the TARDIS could reach you.

    Seriously, what’s up with that cheese in a can? Is it so hard to get a nice hunk of Wisconsin extra sharp cheddar and cut off little slices? They even have special tools just for slicing cheese to make it easy.

  72. #72 SC
    September 29, 2008

    If I were not already Catholic, I would run to join up. A belief system so maliciously treated must have something of value as its basis

    Sincerely,
    Judith McGuinn, MD

    ***

    Maybe the Catholic press needs to survey the situation on a national level to see if Donohue has a legitimate complaint or is simply the victim of that gene so many Irish strive to keep under control–hyperbole stoked by righteous rage.

    No further comment necessary.

  73. #73 Karey
    September 29, 2008

    I do love this cracker business, its one of PZ’s more brilliant contributions to society. You can be as catholic as you want but channeling everything that you feel is sacred onto a cracker is lunacy. I’ve always had this same problem with people who get so upset about flag burning. The flag is supposed to be a symbol of our country’s freedom or something, just a symbol, thats all. If it gets destroyed, you get another one. Its not a big deal. Our country’s freedom isn’t actually located in the flag itself you know. Trying to force everyone else to show reverence to an object only you care about is really the last straw.

  74. #74 Reid
    September 29, 2008

    “You kick against the goad, and the GOAD will triumph”
    All i could think of after reading this is the MC5

    “Brothers and sisters, I want to see your hands up there! I want everybody to kick up some noise! I want to hear see some revolution out there! … Brothers and sisters, the time has come for each and every one of you to decide whether you are going to be the problem or you are going to be the solution … Brothers, it’s time to testify! … Kick out the GOADS motherfuckers!”

  75. #75 Mr.Pendent's GOAD
    September 29, 2008

    Years ago I was told that one of my cousins lost his faith at the University of Minnesota. Now I can understand why.

    EXACTLY! Now we ALL know why–PZ threw that poor young man’s faith out in the garbage! Shame on you, PZ!

    If anything of the sort was done to blacks, homosexuals, Jews, or Muslims there would be a swift penal reaction from your administration; we all know that to be true.

    For once, they got something right. There would be swift penal and administrative action if PZ were to hammer a nail through an African American, a homosexual, a Jew or a Muslim and throw him in the garbage. Even in Minnesota, I’m pretty sure they call that “murder”. At least “assault”

    Now, if he were to throw out some silly religious article belonging to any one (or all) of these groups, I’m quite sure the repercussions would be negligible.

  76. #76 BobC
    September 29, 2008

    Broad brush. I know quite a few Catholics who aren’t nutjobs.

    All Catholics believe in the resurrection of Jebus into a zombie who flew up to the clouds. That’s just plain stupid and no belief could possibly be more crazy, therefore all Catholics are idiots.

    Also, are there any Catholics in the world who don’t teach their children Jebus was a god-man? Probably not. Lying to children is child abuse, therefore all Catholics (and Christians and Muslims and religious Jews) are stupid assholes.

    They might be nice people most of the time, but there’s no excuse for brainwashing gullible children. They deserve nothing but contempt and ridicule, no matter how moderate they think they are.

    Also, everyone who believes there’s a magic fairy hiding in the clouds is insane. The fact that millions believe this bullshit doesn’t make it any less idiotic.

    Anyone who isn’t an atheist has something seriously wrong with them. The magic fairy belief is a very serious mental illness. Claiming that some religious people are not nuts is sucking up to the religious insanity that is good for nothing but violence, genocide, ignorance, and misery.

  77. #77 SEF
    September 29, 2008

    @ Dahan #28:

    She’s a Doctor?

    So she appears to claim from the initials she proudly put after her name. Nor do I find it to be at all an unusual claim such as would require extraordinary evidence. In my experience, incompetent medics (ignorant, stupid, illogical and also dishonest) are the norm rather than the exception. Religiosity is entirely typical of their kind too.

    Then again, the MD claim doesn’t really match her previous claim to be a scientist – since medical doctors are rarely scientists (that’s a separate type of study and qualification, though it’s not impossible for someone to do both). Plus religious people are never scientists while they’re being religious. However, once more bearing my extensive experience in mind, I wouldn’t expect her to be interested in or even capable of telling the truth about being a scientist. She probably habitually mistakes herself for a scientist.

  78. #78 Mike the Englishman
    September 29, 2008

    I do still open and read every letter sent to me, though

    I hope you use a letter opener. I read Jeremy Paxman’s The English: A Portrait of a People a while back, in which he related an anecdote wherein he recieved mail from a White Supremacist group; the envelope actually had razor blades glued to the inside, and it was only the fact that he was using a letter opener that spared his fingers. I would advise you to do the same, if you’re ont already.

  79. #79 SC
    September 29, 2008

    Ah – I missed Dahan’s comment @ #28. Pardon the redundancy.

  80. #80 tsg
    September 29, 2008

    I’m just asking but… how do they know that any of those YouTube videos actually involve a consecrated host?

    I always thought that was one of the more interesting things about the Great Desecration: the sheer number of Catholics who were willing to believe, based on PZ’s word alone, that the cracker was consecrated just so they could be outraged. It’s as if they actually need to be persecuted to validate their faith.

    There were a few who doubted it. To them I say, good for you. Now, apply that skepticism to the rest of your life and you’ll be much better off.

  81. #81 CJO
    September 29, 2008

    In fact, how does anyone know that PZ actually used a consecrated host? How does PZ know that the host he used was consecrated?

    Lo, the point dawns yonder, over Tom P.’s head!

  82. #82 Lowell
    September 29, 2008

    From Michael F. Gallagher’s note:

    We do hope they will be as disgusted as we are about a certain Dr. Myers on your faculty who, in the name of the university, has taken it upon himself to totally disrespect our beliefs in the Holy Eucharist of the Catholic Church.

    How could anyone familiar with the facts surrounding Crackergate possibly come away with the impression that PZ acted “in the name of the university” (i.e., University of Minnesota, Morris)?

    Oh, wait. Mr. Gallagher didn’t bother to familiarize himself with the facts before pontificating about the subject. What a surprise.

  83. #83 varalo
    September 29, 2008

    If by chance you SHOULD receive any sexual favors as a result of your action, please tell me how to get hold of a LOT of crackers. I will furnish my own rusty nails. Beats Viagra any day.

  84. #84 Feynmaniac
    September 29, 2008

    It’s been a while since we’ve had a 1000 comment post. Let’s see how this will do.

    “I’m sorry to break the sad news to you, but I’ve gotten zero (0) sexual favors for the cracker desecration.”

    DAMNIT. All those hours wasted in mass….

  85. #85 tsg
    September 29, 2008

    @#76:

    Good to see you’re approaching this rationally :rolleyes:

  86. #86 Patricia
    September 29, 2008

    Quiet Desperation thou shalt not mock Cheese Whiz. Thou shalt not desecrate Cheese Whiz by spreading it on ramen. Thee shall keep thy Cheese Whiz holy, forever and ever, amen.

  87. #87 Michelle
    September 29, 2008

    In fact, how does anyone know that PZ actually used a consecrated host? How does PZ know that the host he used was consecrated?

    Video evidence of the abduction, my lad.

    And GO YOUTUBE. Great work! These delusional folks are all for their preachings being allowed but when someone rises up against their word they get offended? Accept both sides of the debate, jerks.

  88. #88 chancelikely
    September 29, 2008

    “Judith McGuinn, MD”

    Maybe she’s just letting you know she’s from Maryland.

    –chancelikely, MI

  89. #89 DCP
    September 29, 2008

    I don’t respect their religion (or any other, that is) at all. If they want respect they should better start to respect other religions or lack thereof. I suggest they start by not eating beef. Cows are sacred to those whacky Hindus. But last time I checked none of them were protesting at my local fast food restaurants against the sacrilege commited by the costumers (among whom surely are some Catholics).

    Oh and “professor of sacramental theology” sounds like “professor of obscurology”: completely made up.

  90. #90 BobC
    September 29, 2008

    tsg (#85), what’s your problem? Do you think believing in a magic fairy is normal?

    Do you think somebody who believes the disgusting Jebus resurrection into a zombie myth is not insane?

    I think you’re part of the problem. People like you who suck up to religious insanity are no better than the religious retards.

  91. #91 Tom P.
    September 29, 2008

    What really pisses me off is that none of those stupid articles let you leave comments. Are they afraid of being mocked?

  92. #92 SEF
    September 29, 2008

    @ BobC #76:

    Claiming that some religious people are not nuts is sucking up to the religious insanity that is good for nothing but violence, genocide, ignorance, and misery.

    In the UK there’s something of a tradition for “religious” leaders not to genuinely believe in the religion at all but merely to be exploiting its availability as a career path (giving second sons the power and money they weren’t going to inherit and even allowing women to acquire a tiny amount of status and independence). Hence not so much nuts as cunning and manipulative – unless you include under the heading of “nuts” any sociopathy that involves. Of course that career-nut alternative just leads to them visiting the “violence, genocide, ignorance, and misery” on others …

  93. #93 rob
    September 29, 2008

    i enjoyed this comment from one of the letters:

    “Your disciplining of Paul Z. Myers for desecrating the the Eucharist was not adequate. You will have to do more like terminating him or giving him a very long suspension.”

    i think scheduling PZ for termination is a bit harsh. besides, i don’t think the Cyberdyne Systems Model 101 has been put into production yet.

    maybe they could tie him to a bed and spank him instead?

    oh, wait, that punishment is for lighting the grail shaped beacon, not desecrating crackers.

  94. #94 Teh Merkin
    September 29, 2008

    This could not happen at our beloved Penn State.

    Sounds like a challenge to me… too bad I am not at Penn State.

    Anyone? Bueller?

  95. #95 chancelikely
    September 29, 2008

    DCP #89:

    Oh and “professor of sacramental theology” sounds like “professor of obscurology”: completely made up.

    Reminds me of the expert in the court trial about creationism in the Simpsons: “I have a Ph. D. in Truthology from Christian Tech.”

  96. #96 Michelle
    September 29, 2008

    BTW guys I think we should all go give FSM dude a cheer. The religious zealots are spamming him like hell in the comments of his videos. He needs to feel the love. Not the christian love that is being served to him right now that is… I meant real love!

    http://www.youtube.com/user/fsmdude <- zeh link PZ linked to and all

  97. #97 Architeuthis
    September 29, 2008

    “YouTube has to be held accountable and stopped,” Serafin said from Los Angeles. “If Catholics don’t take a stand right now, they can expect such outrages to continue.”

    Soooooo….. if we apply that logic that the larger entity must take responsibility for the actions of a few, then what was the problem with that principle when the priests were molesting children?

    The second line about outrages to continue, also speaks to the widespread abuse of children in the church. I’d say they need to practice what they preach, but that’s a load of nonsense too.

  98. #98 Teh Merkin
    September 29, 2008

    What really pisses me off is that none of those stupid articles let you leave comments. Are they afraid of being mocked?

    Yes.

  99. #99 Holbach
    September 29, 2008

    Insanity; your name is religion!

  100. #100 MikeM
    September 29, 2008

    Hey, Pauly, quit being such a no-nothing.

    /smirk

    It’s the physical mails that’d bother me. I already have my personal email set up so that emails with certain subjects end up in different folders; that makes things a lot easier. I’d have to go out of my way to read stuff like that.

    But the hand-written stuff is the kind of thing that’s presented at trial as evidence to convict someone. Man, that’s scary. If I ever got mail like that, I’d freak out. You get it every day? Please, turn them over to the authorities. The senders need to know that letters like that can be taken a certain way. A half-hour of questioning by the FBI might convince them to stop.

    I have to remind you religious people of all faiths of this one thing: I don’t believe in a spirit world, period. Someone starts telling me about spirits, I’ve already tuned you out. I don’t care what faith it is.

    Hey, I had a “Yes on Measure 8″ (CA) come to my door on Saturday. He told me he was one of my neighbors. Damn. There goes the neighborhood. I was polite. I hope I don’t come to regret that decision to be polite. I simply refused to share my opinion on the subject with him, which would have been, approximately, “Get away from my house, you old bigot!”.

  101. #101 PaleoJorge
    September 29, 2008

    It seems that some of these people sending the emails were so blinded by outrage when they saw the cracker that they seem to have missed the fact that the koran was also desecrated!! BTW is there something wrong with that first link you provided? everytime I try to open it at the university the computer automatically shuts down safari!! I guess I’ll have to try at home…… I’ve always been suspicious of this computer in my office!

  102. #102 DLC
    September 29, 2008

    Hmm.. when I saw “Naughty boy” I couldn’t help but think of
    Larry Craig. :::shrug:::

    I never did get why driving a nail through a fairly unpalatable foodstuff should be an insult to so many.
    If your faith is strong, why would any such display trouble you ? I guess I don’t get it.

  103. #103 Celtic_Evolution
    September 29, 2008

    Cue Fr. J in 3… 2… 1…

  104. #104 Todd
    September 29, 2008

    I’m sorry to break the sad news to you, but I’ve gotten zero (0) sexual favors for the cracker desecration.

    Well there goes my Keebler elf fantasy….

  105. #105 tsg
    September 29, 2008

    tsg (#85), what’s your problem?

    Idiots who think that whole segments of society can characterized based on a label.

    Do you think believing in a magic fairy is normal?

    Define “normal”.

    Do you think somebody who believes the disgusting Jebus resurrection into a zombie myth is not insane?

    Not necessarily.

    I think you’re part of the problem. People like you who suck up to religious insanity are no better than the religious retards.

    Bigotry, from either side, is a bigger problem.

    The simple fact is that there are a great many people calling themselves Catholic who don’t fit your profile in the slightest.

  106. #106 Muffin
    September 29, 2008

    PZ, I’m curious now, how much physical mail have you actually received over this? And also, what are you doing with it – discarding it, keeping it, or…?

    Inquiring minds want to know! :)

  107. #107 True Bob
    September 29, 2008

    I will respect your right to enjoy cheese whiz, but for FSM’s sake, keep that nasty canned crap the hell away from me! It’s friggin’ repellent!

  108. #108 Teh Merkin
    September 29, 2008

    Hey, Pauly, quit being such a no-nothing.

    Ow, my eye! The doctor said not to get irony in that eye!

  109. #109 Holbach
    September 29, 2008

    BobC @ 51

    “If catholics don’t take a stand right now, they can expect such outrages to continue.”

    It is so simple and blatant as this: Where is their fucking imaginary god to stop this? It just boggles the mind that they believe in a supreme being that can do anything, and yet cannot stop this human action. And they don’t consider themselves insane! Morons!

  110. #110 ddr
    September 29, 2008

    #69..
    If a priest could pick out a consecrated cracker from an unconsecrated one, I bet Randi would give him the million dollars.

  111. #111 CJO
    September 29, 2008

    You know, everytime the page from the Koran that was trashed is brought up, some one will retort that only Arabic Korans are sacred. Somehow, I think it is only Catholics who are saying this. I would think a Muslim saying this would state his faith in Islam. I don’t think there has been a single comment about the desecration along the lines of “I’m a muslim and the english translation of of the Koran doesn’t count, but if it had been arabic I would be very angry”.

    Well, I’ve said it, and I’m not Catholic or Muslim or any of that batshit weirdness. It’s just not the correct response to fatwa envy. Fatwa envy is blatantly hypocritical, exactly equivalent to responding to a personal affront by saying, “Well, I’m a nonviolent person on principle, so I’ll let that slide. But when I tell my psychopathic big brother on you, he’s going to beat the shit out of you, and I’ll love every minute of it.”

    I once asked a muslim friend about that whole “do not translate the Koran” thing. He kind of laughed that the “official” Arabic of the Koran is prettty much a dead language (or actually more like an artificial language) that no one understands anymore. That all Korans are essentially translations into modern Arabic and so that prohibition is really meaningless. Not saying that is the “official” position of Islam, but that’s what he told me.

    Classical Arabic is more accurately a liturgical language, much like the Hebrew of the Torah. It’s precisely this character, though, that makes a Koran in it sacred. That some Korans are rendered in modern Arabic is somewhat beside the point, because the one in the mosque is in the original language, and is considered a sacred object while a translated copy is not.

  112. #112 BMcP
    September 29, 2008

    How do we know those are actual consecrated hosts they are messing with and not just wafers they ordered in the mail or something? If the latter then it doesn’t mean anything much to Catholics either if I recall until the priest does his prayer on it. I ask this of course because I am too skeptical just to take some dude on Youtube’s word that he is actually messing with consecrated versions, after all anyone can get a hold of the crackers themselves.

    Oh well, everyone needs a hobby I guess.

  113. #113 Jason Failes
    September 29, 2008

    The simple fact is that there are a great many people calling themselves Catholic who don’t fit your profile in the slightest.

    To the exact extent that they ignore their own bible and traditions and embrace modern, secular values.

    Someone genuinely following the bible would indeed be certifiably insane.

    Not that I’m defending the bile. I prefer mockery myself…

  114. #114 ignatov
    September 29, 2008

    “Jesus… died on the cross for everyone – the most arrogant, prideful, dishonest, disrespectful and hate-filled… No one is required to tolerate the intolerable. And you, Pauly, are . . . I-n-t-o-l-e-r-a-b-l-e!”

    Boy, those Christians really know how to bring the love, don’t they?

  115. #115 Holbach
    September 29, 2008

    tsg @ 105

    You just have to show us your imaginary god, and then all will be resolved. Simple as that.

  116. #116 RideThePig
    September 29, 2008

    The retards worship a fucking piece of baked wheat! Anything that worships so materialistically is just stupid. The idea that a piece of fucking food deserves any respect whatsoever is more proof that these morons have no critical thinking skills. I hope someone flushes one of these things down a used toilet.

  117. #117 E.V.
    September 29, 2008

    When you brainwash children into believing in a sky wizard and magic, they sure do get huffy as adults when you point out their beliefs are silly. Perhaps they’re still inconsolable over the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus were revealed to be a customary lie. That would explain the tantrum tinged rants from these wafer agonists.

    As for a majority of MD’s and DO’s, they are notoriously religious which frightens me a little. Technology and training are the only things that separate them from Shamans.

  118. #118 tsg
    September 29, 2008

    How do we know those are actual consecrated hosts they are messing with and not just wafers they ordered in the mail or something? If the latter then it doesn’t mean anything much to Catholics either if I recall until the priest does his prayer on it. I ask this of course because I am too skeptical just to take some dude on Youtube’s word that he is actually messing with consecrated versions, after all anyone can get a hold of the crackers themselves.

    I think it’s very telling indeed that so many are willing to take it on faith (as it were) that they are, in fact, consecrated wafers.

    I wonder what would happen if someone were to post a whole series of cracker desecration videos, let the objections pile up, and then say they weren’t really consecrated. Would the response be “oh, that’s alright then”, or would they still be outraged? Could they defend taking his word that they were and not taking his word that they weren’t?

  119. #119 Ichthyic
    September 29, 2008

    from one of the hatemails:

    Now why would a man in our hypersensitive, politically correct, multicultural society go out of his way to willfully and publicly offend one fragment of that society with whom he has no beef other than his rejection of their beliefs?

    *blink*

  120. #120 Die Anyway
    September 29, 2008

    >”Who knows what back-slapping and monetary/sexual favors will come his way as the result of his courageous stand?”

    Kewl!!

    >>”I’m sorry to break the sad news to you, but I’ve gotten zero (0) sexual favors…”

    Drat. I was hoping for pictures. Teh athiest pron. Coulda been good.

  121. #121 The Hogfather
    September 29, 2008

    PZ, I am a big fan but this whole wafer thing is starting to get really tiresome now and not especially funny. I say that this should be the last post on the whole issue and any more e-mails should just be left in the trash folder (where they belong).

    Let’s just be patient, after all it won’t be too long until Donohue makes some other outrageous remark and then we can give him some grief and have fun in the process.

  122. #122 margish
    September 29, 2008

    The same “rational” religion that has the balls to claim it is infallible about 200? 300? years after threatening torture to a great scientist for (gasp)claiming the earth goes around the sun. Not to mention all the more modern scandals such as their disdain for victim of child rapists (although the public ignoring female rape is discomforting.)
    Not to mention the genocide of Africans due to their worshiping every sperm – condoms are sinful. And pope ratz calls us the death culture. Their vigil against an independence of women, itself a crime against natural law- as formulated by their “great” thinker Thomas A. who wrote about the absurdity of considering women as anything but defective. I can go on and on. These pig misogynists call foul when a rational person actually can be threatened with death for demonstrating just one absurdity of their precious beliefs. Go PZ, go. By the way , raised a Catholic, the absurdities are so gross that a 9 year girl (gasp, a feeble minded individual, lacking the necessary penis) could see right through them.

  123. #123 TSC
    September 29, 2008

    Where are those Keeblers? I’m all up for some sexual favors.

  124. #124 SC
    September 29, 2008

    For all you kids out there who haven’t yet learned how to concern-troll, The Hogfather has graciously shown you how it’s done @ #121.

  125. #125 Karl Withakay
    September 29, 2008

    1. I love all the people who write with the pretentiousness of 16 year old playing Dungeons and Dragons.

    “You have a very hateful spirit. Like the howling dogs of hell you have so much hatred that you cannot tolerate spiritual joy so you attach it like a rabid dog.”

    Damn, you must have rolled a 6, quick use your anti-hateful spirit dagger, it has a +7 against hateful spirits spells.

    2 I am fascinated by all the people who feel the need to comment on an incident they obviously have not taken the time to do even superficial research on. They would not bother requesting you desecrate a Koran as well if they knew anything about the incident in which you did exactly what they are asking you to do.

    3 As a matter of point: I don’t have to respect ANYBODY’S beliefs, and neither does anybody else. I suppose I have to respect your RIGHT TO HAVE a particular belief, but I have the right to NOT respect that belief. You don’t have to respect the beliefs of flat earthers, moon hoax conspirators, or believers in the flying spaghetti monster.

    4 I have to assume it’s just an exercise in literary masturbation when someone writes a lengthy email or letter explaining god’s love/ god’s wrath for you and your actions and the ultimate price they think you will pay for them. I mean, they do understand that you don’t believe, right? They wouldn’t feel concerned if I wrote them an email explaining to them how they are incurring the wrath of the Flying Spaghetti Monster for their actions, and that it’s not too late to reject evil white sauce and return to the good graces of the Sacrament of the Red Sauce would they?

  126. #126 DrFish
    September 29, 2008

    The responses you get are very illustrative of the reason I left religion behind. These people have all just had their “REACT” circuits activated without bothering to find out any further information on their own. Oh, and can we all agree that just having the letters M and D behind your name hardly qualifies you as a scientist…. I’m looking at you, Judith McGuinn (email #4), and wishing that you actually knew the definition of the word “know”. Letting a pharmaceutical rep take you to dinner and wave a shiny graph in your face is not the same as designing, running, and evaluating experiments. Hell, the guys on Car Talk are more scientific than most doctors I have met.

  127. #127 tsg
    September 29, 2008

    tsg @ 105

    You just have to show us your imaginary god, and then all will be resolved. Simple as that.

    I don’t have one. I’m only taking issue with the gross generalizations being bandied about based on one common trait.

    Not tolerating bigotry from others means you don’t get to be a bigot either.

  128. #128 cicely
    September 29, 2008

    Cheez Whiz may not be as good as real cheese, but it does at least stay where it’s put.

    Velveeta, now….there’s a mockery of a dairy product!

    :)

  129. #129 Don
    September 29, 2008

    It’s plain to see you have no regard for God…

    Damn, PZ, they’re onto you. Where did you slip up?

  130. #130 CJO
    September 29, 2008

    I think it’s very telling indeed that so many are willing to take it on faith (as it were) that they are, in fact, consecrated wafers.

    I wonder what would happen if someone were to post a whole series of cracker desecration videos, let the objections pile up, and then say they weren’t really consecrated. Would the response be “oh, that’s alright then”, or would they still be outraged? Could they defend taking his word that they were and not taking his word that they weren’t?

    I’m envisioning a version of three-card monte: “Keep your eye on the holy one, folks! Round and round they go, which one is Jesus, nobody knows!”

  131. #131 Ka
    September 29, 2008

    Obviously, even the pious pilgrims who came to Lourdes to see the Pope desecrated crackers:
    http://veritasvincit.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/sacrileges-abound-after-papal-mass-at-lourdes/

  132. #132 E.V.
    September 29, 2008

    #121:
    Terry Pratchett called. He’s issuing a cease and desist order for anyone posting pompously while using his character’s names.

  133. #133 G Felis
    September 29, 2008

    Most of these, by the way, are also being sent to President Bruininks and Chancellor Johnson, who, I’m sure, are thoroughly sick of them all. I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re filtering out anything that mentions “Myers”!

    That would only filter out the percentage of whiners who manage to spell your name correctly, Dr. Meyer Meyers Myer Mair Mayer Mires Myers. I noticed that this bunch was generally more articulate/literate than many of your prior, uhm, correspondents – but I still saw a few examples of creative spelling.

  134. #134 Bad Albert
    September 29, 2008

    Our P.Z. Myers, contributing to the delinquency of infidels everywhere. Good work!

  135. #135 Chiroptera
    September 29, 2008

    The Hogfather, #121: PZ, I am a big fan but this whole wafer thing is starting to get really tiresome now and not especially funny.

    Why do you say that? Does your force you to read the latest wafer post before you can move on to more interesting sites. Weird. When my browser does weird stuff like that, I find that clearing the cache will sometimes help.

  136. #136 MS
    September 29, 2008

    Accounts of the original incident in Florida vary, and it seems that the student involved has not been 100% consistent in his retelling of it, but AT WORST he was guilty of a little insensitivity. MAYBE he owed the people at the Mass an apology. I bet if people had just gone to him and said, “You know, what you did is offensive to us; would you please give us back the eucharist and not do that again?” he would have complied. Instead he was assaulted, hauled before student tribunals and sent death threats.

  137. #137 Uncephalized
    September 29, 2008

    Love all the comments suggesting you desecrate a Koran instead… besides the fact that it’s a ridiculous red herring, you already did it anyway! They’re too “offended” to even pay attention to what actually happened.

  138. #138 scrabcake
    September 29, 2008

    The most odious one in my opinion was the one where the writer cited Larry Summers as a brave academic.
    If Larry Summers is a brave martyr for the truth, then I’ll have a coward any day. If there’s a Hell, may Summers spend eternity being schooled by clever demoness physicists.
    And how does not respecting the Eucharist amount to not valuing human life? WTF? Before this issue, I’d thought of the catholics as a fairly benign and modern crowd. Believing in transubstantiation, I thought, was surely something that had been left in the 16th century. I’m usually open to talking with religious types, but
    These people are hateful, intolerant, stupid, petty and just as quick to get their panties in a twist as the politically correct liberals they hate.

  139. #139 tsg
    September 29, 2008

    They’re too “offended” to even pay attention to what actually happened.

    Some people would rather be angry than right.

  140. #140 Agersomnia
    September 29, 2008

    It seems like people only know what PZ did because of second or third grade reports and accounts.

    Nobody seems to remember the Koran pages, or Dakwings book.

    Dumb people.

  141. #141 Tx CHL instructor
    September 29, 2008

    Here’s a comment from another blog, by a guy that refers to himself (herself?) as “Besada” (a former member of NTCOF, where I am music director now), which I found quite appropriate for this:

    “Making fun of people is enjoyable, but it’s not particularly productive. Here’s a secret, when you ridicule someone’s beliefs, it strengthens them, it doesn’t weaken them. They see you as a maladjusted asshole and it tells them that a) atheists are jerks and b) they’re unhappy people who feel the need to ridicule and browbeat others. You can see this happen on every message board like this. Someone like you comes in, argues with someone like Hadji, and you both go even more sure that you’re right and they’re wrong.”

    If you are only after blog traffic, that’s one thing. But if you are trying to influence anybody’s opinion, you are only pissing upwind, PZ.

  142. #142 tsg
    September 29, 2008

    “Making fun of people is enjoyable, but it’s not particularly productive. Here’s a secret, when you ridicule someone’s beliefs, it strengthens them, it doesn’t weaken them. They see you as a maladjusted asshole and it tells them that a) atheists are jerks and b) they’re unhappy people who feel the need to ridicule and browbeat others. You can see this happen on every message board like this. Someone like you comes in, argues with someone like Hadji, and you both go even more sure that you’re right and they’re wrong.”

    If you are only after blog traffic, that’s one thing. But if you are trying to influence anybody’s opinion, you are only pissing upwind, PZ.

    Concern noted.

  143. #143 karen
    September 29, 2008

    I’m sorry to break the sad news to you, but I’ve gotten zero (0) sexual favors for the cracker desecration.

    Sorry to hear that PZ. Perhaps the desecration path was wrong for sexual favors. You should try desecrating the Virgin Mary. (Get the Trophy Wife’s approval first; don’t want to cause any problems in Happy Marriage Land!)

    Good to hear about the money though. I hope it’s enough to score you some decent snack food, at least.

  144. #144 Zorb the Sacred Crocodile
    September 29, 2008

    Desecrate a fracken-cracker all you like, but thou shalt not desecrate Zorb the Sacred Crocodile. Let none the name of Zorb defile, lest thou shouldst rue his toothsome smile!

  145. #145 Randy
    September 29, 2008

    Dear Universal Atheist Conspiracy,

    What-what-what!? No one told me about the “monetary/sexual favors”! Which godless heathen’s job was it to disseminate that information? Whoever it was, you sir, have fallen asleep at the wheel, sir. Imagine how far our Secret Prosyletizing Agenda could have come if only people had The Good News about the sex and cash. For shame, sir.

    ~Outraged In NY

  146. #146 Newfie
    September 29, 2008

    Who knows what back-slapping and monetary/sexual favors will come his way as the result of his courageous stand?

    Pip Pip and Huzzah, PZed. No, I won’t blow you. NTTIAWWT.

  147. #147 CJO
    September 29, 2008

    Love all the comments suggesting you desecrate a Koran instead… besides the fact that it’s a ridiculous red herring, you already did it anyway! They’re too “offended” to even pay attention to what actually happened.

    *sigh*

    Yes, fatwa envy is the height of hypocrisy. No, PZ did not desecrate an object sacred to Muslims.

  148. #148 EntoAggie
    September 29, 2008

    tsg #105:

    If you’ll remember, BobC is the one who posted this little gem a few days ago:

    “Iraq is a piece of shit country. It’s infested with Muslims. I say let them kill each other.”

    So, yeah, that should tell you what you need to know.

  149. #149 Chiroptera
    September 29, 2008

    Tx CHL instructor, #141: But if you are trying to influence anybody’s opinion, you are only pissing upwind, PZ.

    Yeah. I bet that was what PZ was thinking. “I’m going to desecrate a wafer. Man, that’ll get those Catholics to realize that there’s no god!”

  150. #150 moo
    September 29, 2008

    Can it really be this easy to get monetary/sexual favours? To think I’ve spent all these years working and humiliating myself while trying to pick up chicks, when I only had to trash a few crackers! Maybe I’ll YouTube the trashing of some of those high in trans-fat snacking crackers … I don’t think anybody has done that yet.

  151. #151 KillerChihuahua
    September 29, 2008

    PZ, is there a “lost and found” at the admin building there? Perhaps someone should check for Marie Louise Jilk’s relative’s “lost” faith.

  152. #152 mus
    September 29, 2008

    Excellent! I wish I had some crackers to desecrate… alas, I do not.

  153. #153 abeja
    September 29, 2008

    Yikes, that handwritten letter is from my hometown. Saginaw is often called “Scaginaw” by the locals for damn good reasons–an EXTREMELY high crime rate being one of them. I didn’t know any creationists when I lived there, but obviously they’re around. I’m glad I left years ago, but I suspect the town I live in is probably infested with its share of creotards also.

  154. #154 karen
    September 29, 2008

    Zorb
    You reminded me of a song I learned in 6th grade:

    Oh she sailed away
    On a sunny summer day
    On the back of a crocodile.

    You see, said she,
    He’s as tame as he can be;
    I’ll ride him down the Nile.

    Well, the croc winked his eye
    As she waved them all goodbye,
    Wearing a happy smile.

    At the end of the ride,
    The lady was inside,
    And the smile was on the crocodile!

  155. #155 Greta Christina
    September 29, 2008

    No, no, no, no, no!

    In Desecration #10 — the frying pan and whipped cream one — he’s using a metal spatula with a non-stick pan!

    Blasphemy, I say! Blasphemy!

  156. #156 Greta Christina
    September 29, 2008

    How do we know those are actual consecrated hosts they are messing with?

    To all the people who asked this: He has video evidence. One of his videos shows him going to a church and scoring a consecrated wafer. It’s not an unbroken shot (it’d be hard to keep the video camera going when you’re actually going up to the priest and getting your cracker… but it’s pretty compelling.

  157. #157 Alan
    September 29, 2008

    I’m conflicted.

    As a vocal confirmed atheist, I see the point and applauded PZ’s early inclusion of pages from the God Delusion.

    As someone still an active member of the Jewish community, I don’t know how I would feel about a Torah being desecrated on Youtube.

    Trying to reconcile my thoughts.

  158. #158 WRMartin
    September 29, 2008

    How about a special, dedicated version of *Tube.com? First URL that comes to mind is CrackerTube.com.
    [Off to check availability and register domain, clickity, clickty] Aw dang, registered on 18-July. PZ, was that your doing?! ;)

    And I am intrigued by the “actively desecrating the eucharist” statement from Kook Judith McGuinn. Can I get a cracker to put in my shoe and wear it around all day long stepping on poor Jebus so I can participate in that actively desecrating thingy?
    If I’m the only person who knows the cracker is in my shoe it won’t have the full desired effect so maybe I’ll need a shirt and hat too. There’s a huge market here people.
    Desecration.com? No, that’s already registered too.
    What’s a poor desecrator to do these days?

    Tom P (#69) You have concecrated toilet paper?! Can you spare a square?

  159. #159 karen
    September 29, 2008

    @Randy #145

    Dear Universal Atheist Conspiracy,

    What-what-what!? No one told me about the “monetary/sexual favors”! Which godless heathen’s job was it to disseminate that information?

    It’s in the Secret Atheist Manual. Didn’t you get one at your initiation rites? The one at which you killed and ate a baby and presented the (at least) ten (10) children you lured into atheism through teh interwebs? If you did not receive you handbook, I would look suspiciously at those who conducted your initiation. They are most likely moles who have infiltrated the movement. You must act quickly and identify them!

  160. #160 Dahan
    September 29, 2008

    “I’m sorry to break the sad news to you, but I’ve gotten zero (0) sexual favors for the cracker desecration.”

    Probably why you haven’t bothered to desecrate any more of them, right?

    ;)

  161. #161 Rik.
    September 29, 2008

    crackers, crackers, crackers. Although I hear “wafer” is more correct. I don’t know, I’ve only been to a catholic mass once a long time ago when I was 7 or something – the only thing I remember that I was gratefull for the cracker/wafer because I was hungry, and a bit disappointed that it was so little food and tasted so bad….

    Anyway, the cracker. Now more people are doing it. Well, I guess it’s cool to have inspired such a thing. Why are the catholics still upset about it though? I mean, I’d understand if it was some sort of unique ancient artwork that they held sacred – actually, I’d be upset if someone destroyed a unique ancient artwork anyway, sacred or not…

    Hm. This is odd. I’ve just noticed that I cannot comprehend the idea of holding something sacred. I’m trying to draw parallels to things with sentimental value, or that are important to me, but I just can’t find a good comparison.

    Someone help? I want to understand :| (But please explain in a way that doesn’t fry my brain with Stupid)

  162. #162 Chiroptera
    September 29, 2008

    Alan, # 157: As someone still an active member of the Jewish community, I don’t know how I would feel about a Torah being desecrated on Youtube.

    Well, no one is saying that that you should feel good about it. And it is certainly in your rights to point out that a person is being somewhat of a dick if they do desecrate the Torah.

    What is setting off most of the reaction is when people are crying and screaming that people must respect other peoples beliefs and, in fact, must respect them in a certain manner, and try to get people kicked out of school or fired from their jobs or put into prison for showing the wrong kind of disrespect.

  163. #163 Rob the Lurker FCD BMWCCA
    September 29, 2008

    We Christians reason with persecutors and pray for them, none of your University family will be safe if the Muslims feel slighted!

    Ooh, ooh, ooh, Fr. Kloster, you left out that you also make veiled threats.

  164. #164 Dan DeLeon
    September 29, 2008

    You really should set up sort of website where messages trashed as a result of this are automatically posted. There were some that existed for 419 Nigerian letters that have sadly gone by the wayside. That way, we can either revel in the crazy every day, or mourn the fact that their votes count exactly the same as one of yours.

  165. #165 Pete Rooke
    September 29, 2008

    What really irritates me is that they don’t, at the very least, place an age restriction (with verification) on other more pervasive videos which are also particularly vile.

    This doesn’t just apply to host desecration (which should be banned and classified as incitement to violence) of this kind but to all content that contains profanity, sexual content, blasphemy.. If they can ban incitement to violence why can they not take a stand against this perverse content that plagues the web site?

    The effect of this content on society is not yet known, but watch this interview with Ted Bundy for a chilling insight into how this type of content can taint a person’s soul:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ki9FhawqTyc feature=related

  166. #166 Phil
    September 29, 2008

    Take a look at this loser: http://www.youtube.com/user/OneTrueChurch and watch his video response to the eucharist desecration videos.

  167. #167 Rik.
    September 29, 2008

    Yeah, Pete, let’s take a psychopath to illustrate how something like this would influence a normal human being.

    Come on, you can’t really be that stupid, can you?

  168. #168 Monado
    September 29, 2008

    Don’t any of your correspondents eat beef? Aren’t they ashamed of themselves for showing their hatred and contempt for 900 million Hindus? Shouldn’t they be fired or arrested for their hate crimes? And why is it legal to raise beef for slaughter? Don’t they know that they are trampling on the religious beliefs of almost a billion people?

    I have an idea. PZ could undertake never to desecrate another cracker if the Catholic church adds the sacredness of cattle to their principles–oh, and stops protecting their child-rapers.

  169. #169 Qwerty
    September 29, 2008

    PZ, I think you’ve given FMSdude a career. Or at least a hobby.

  170. #170 Marshall
    September 29, 2008

    If YouTube decides to play religious police and block cracker-demolition videos, I will simply create a new religion which states that crackers are the body of Satan, and must be demolished. Any Catholic affront to cracker demolition would therefore be an affront to my religion, and YouTube would then be liable for my religion.

  171. #171 Ichthyic
    September 29, 2008

    pete’s back.

    I wonder if these Donowhores have some sort of filter that checks for “consecrated” or “cracker” and then just jump in whenever it rings that little bell on their ‘puter?

  172. #172 tsg
    September 29, 2008

    Hm. This is odd. I’ve just noticed that I cannot comprehend the idea of holding something sacred. I’m trying to draw parallels to things with sentimental value, or that are important to me, but I just can’t find a good comparison.

    Someone help? I want to understand :| (But please explain in a way that doesn’t fry my brain with Stupid)

    The only thing I can equate it to is a stuffed animal you may have been particularly attached to when you were younger. Most of us grow out of that, though.

  173. #173 Ichthyic
    September 29, 2008

    The effect of this content on society is not yet known, but watch this interview with Ted Bundy for a chilling insight into how this type of content can taint a person’s soul:

    Hey, Pete,

    What’s this “soul” thing you mention?

  174. #174 Ichthyic
    September 29, 2008

    Come on, you can’t really be that stupid, can you?

    You must not have been around for Petey’s other “contributions”.

  175. #175 Kingasaurus
    September 29, 2008

    Pete’s too busy ignoring the many challenges from previous threads about how the Argument from Personal Experience is fallacious.

    Get back to us on that when you’re darn good and ready, Pete.

  176. #176 The Science Pundit
    September 29, 2008

    Tx CHL instructor, #141:

    I think you underestimate the power of ridicule. It can actually be a useful tool in one’s persuasion arsenal.

    I: It helps to get you noticed. Compare PZ’s web traffic before and after Crackergate. Most of this new traffic would never had heard of PZ if not for the desecration. Even if there are Catholics who are turned off, the fact that they came means that there’s a good chance that they’ll look around and see the rest of the excellent posts.

    II: It is rare to sway someone on the spot with any kind of argument. The only cases I’ve ever seen are people who were on the fence already and were ready to make the leap. Most of the time, however, your strategy in argument and debate is to plant a seed that gets people thinking. I know that most of the times that I’ve been convinced to change my mind, it has been because I’ve mulled over an argument well after it was made to me.

    III: Ridiculing a person hits an emotional nerve. People tend to remember that sort of thing. This is particularly true when the ridicule has enough truth in it to hit uncomfortably close to home. And furthermore, if the ridicule is accompanied by intelligent arguments (as PZ’s mockery posts almost always are), those arguments will also stick with the person to be mulled over and over.

    Yes, the initial reaction may be a strengthening of their ridiculous position, but I firmly believe that if done correctly, it can do so much more to undermine said belief more than any “rational argument” alone can do.

  177. #177 Nerd of Redhead
    September 29, 2008

    Rik

    Yeah, Pete, let’s take a psychopath to illustrate how something like this would influence a normal human being.

    Come on, you can’t really be that stupid, can you?

    Sorry Rik, but Pete seems to be a few pence short of a pound. For some reason he finds us fascinating, and leaves inane comments. He needs to learn to change the channel (post elsewhere) if he doesn’t like a program.

  178. #178 Ichthyic
    September 29, 2008

    What really irritates me is that they don’t, at the very least, place an age restriction (with verification) on other more pervasive videos which are also particularly vile.

    you mean like the ones showing catholic communion that are all over youtube, Pete?

    yes, I agree, all religious vids should be age restricted.

    nobody under 70.

  179. #179 CJO
    September 29, 2008

    The only thing I can equate it to is a stuffed animal you may have been particularly attached to when you were younger. Most of us grow out of that, though.

    That equation might be valid, if you had thousands of replicas of the object mass produced and then handed them out indescriminately to anybody who asked for one.

  180. #180 tsg
    September 29, 2008

    you mean like the ones showing catholic communion that are all over youtube, Pete?

    yes, I agree, all religious vids should be age restricted.

    nobody under 70.

    I think even that is one hundred years too young.

  181. #181 Quiet Desperation
    September 29, 2008

    Patricia: No, no. I meant the cheese you have to shake up and squirt through a nozzle. You know, aerosol cheese.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d1/Easy_cheese2.jpg

    That being said, Cheez-Whiz is its own special brand of evil with its own special place deep within the landscape of damnation. :)

    You people… you live in a world with this:

    http://www.goldenagecheese.com/Black%20Waxed%20X%20Sharp%20Cheddar.JPG

    And you willingly eat this:

    http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/598636/2/istockphoto_598636_spray_cheese.jpg

  182. #182 Tony Sidaway
    September 29, 2008

    I read this post and it tells me one thing: finally the hate mail dried up. :)

  183. #183 Laurie
    September 29, 2008

    How serendipitous that the webcomic xkcd.com had something to say about YouTube comments: http://xkcd.com/481/

    Jeez. People take stuff so seriously.

  184. #184 E.V.
    September 29, 2008

    Petey! You have more repression issues than many I’ve seen, and that says a great deal.
    You are blissfully unaware of how ironic your post was.

    And blasphemy!? Really? “To Hell with your nonexistant God and mythical Jesus too”. How’s that for blasphemy?

  185. #185 Sili
    September 29, 2008

    He’s not a very naughty boy!

    He’s the Messiah!

  186. #186 tsg
    September 29, 2008

    That equation might be valid, if you had thousands of replicas of the object mass produced and then handed them out indescriminately to anybody who asked for one.

    Well, stuffed animals are generally mass produced, and have you ever seen a child lose or ruin a favorite stuffed animal, be offered an identical replacement and still be upset because it’s “not the same”?

    Of course, where the analogy fails is that the child doesn’t usually get upset when some other kid tears the stuffing out of his own “Hunny Bunny”.

  187. #187 SC
    September 29, 2008

    Posted by: Pete Rooke | September 29, 2008 3:03 PM

    Noooooooooooooooooooooooo!

  188. #188 Trish
    September 29, 2008

    There’s one thing I don’t get with this cracker thing. Now, I’m a bit outdated on my Cathloholicism, but I was baptized and I put on the white dress for my first holy communion way back when I was unable to think for myself.

    – So, if I went into a church and ripped at the cracker with my teeth, biting and chomping while consuming .. would that still be a no-no?

    – If I sang “nomnomnom nom” while receiving communion would that be a a bad thing?

    – What if I sneezed right when I was taking communion and Jesus came spewing out of my mouth?

    Do they have some type of “let it melt in your mouth not in your hands” disclosure?

  189. #189 tsg
    September 29, 2008

    Noooooooooooooooooooooooo!

    Comment by Pete Rooke blocked. [unkill]?[show comment]

    Killfile is a wonderful thing.

  190. #190 MH
    September 29, 2008

    Karey #73 wrote “You can be as catholic as you want but channeling everything that you feel is sacred onto a cracker is lunacy.”

    The cracker is the Catholic Church’s equivalent to the One Ring, and PZ is Frodo!

  191. #191 E.V.
    September 29, 2008

    And Petey,
    Bundy was a pathological liar and displayed tendencies for Pathological Narcissim. He would have said Cap’n Crunch causes people to rape and murder if it suited his cause. In the end, he made himself out to be the victim of sin and immorality to deflect his own twisted culpability. He was a mentally disturbed individual.

  192. #192 Pete Rooke
    September 29, 2008

    No one has yet responded to my concerns raised about the effect of this content. Watch the Ted Bundy interview with Dr. James Dobson and then tell me our children should be exposed willy nilly to all of this. I have never allowed anyone else in my family to use any of the internet unless supervised, but many people foolishly sign the release forms demanded by the school authorities that will allow your children to use the internet (without even notifying the parent when the internet is accessed). Yes content can be blocked but it cannot be 100% effective and the encyclopaedic (and other content) is always available to everyone. One has to smell the stench surrounding the local library’s two computer stations to know what type of activity people get up to on there.

  193. #193 MH
    September 29, 2008

    …. and PZ’s bin is Mount Doom, and Donohue is Gollum.

    :-D

  194. #194 E.V.
    September 29, 2008

    Awww, PZ. We wanted to play wit’ da widdle troll!

  195. #195 MH
    September 29, 2008

    …. and the Pope is Sauron.

    (okay, I’ll stop now)

  196. #196 snarkfish
    September 29, 2008

    Tell them to watch the videos in reverse

  197. #197 Gregory Kusnick
    September 29, 2008

    Sure, Pete. Let’s take Ted Bundy’s advice on what we should be allowed to view, because he obviously has the wisdom, morality, and compassion to make those decisions better than we could do ourselves.

  198. #198 MH
    September 29, 2008

    Urgh, I’ll try that last one again:

    Jesus is Sauron, and the Pope is the Mouth of Sauron.

    Lets make a movie!

  199. #199 DiscoveredJoys
    September 29, 2008

    How do we know those are actual consecrated hosts they are messing with and not just wafers they ordered in the mail or something?

    Just mistreat all the crackers and let God sort them out.

    With apologies to the million Cathars killed by the Catholics in the Middle Ages.

  200. #200 Kingasaurus
    September 29, 2008

    Pete Rooke: “I believe in God because I’ve experienced Him personally.”

    Pharyngulites: “Pete, there are plenty of good reasons why people of otherwise contradictory faiths have transcendent religious experiences, which can’t be verified as ‘supernatural’ and have reasonable naturalistic explanations. How do you know you’re not mistaken about the nature of your experience? How could you tell if you were mistaken?”

    Pete Rooke: “I’m tired right now. I’ll get back to you on that.”

    –crickets—

  201. #201 tsg
    September 29, 2008

    - So, if I went into a church and ripped at the cracker with my teeth, biting and chomping while consuming .. would that still be a no-no?

    Thou shalt eat thy god with thy mouth closeth.

    - If I sang “nomnomnom nom” while receiving communion would that be a a bad thing?

    And Jesus spake thusly unto them “I CN HAZ A CRAKER?”

    - What if I sneezed right when I was taking communion and Jesus came spewing out of my mouth?

    The five second rule is extended to fifteen seconds in such instances.

    Do they have some type of “let it melt in your mouth not in your hands” disclosure?

    As in another area of life, the rule is “suck, don’t chew”.

  202. #202 E.V.
    September 29, 2008

    Willy Nilly!?!! Petey, you are just too much. Your moralist, repressive ideas are truly warped. And Dr. James Dobson is a evangelical con man and a douchebag liar for Jeebus. Next?

  203. #203 Sven DiMilo
    September 29, 2008

    Masters thesis idea for, uh, i dunno, Blog Studies or some such North Campus bullshit:
    Pore through the various Ineffable Holy Cracker threads and megathreads on Pharyngula and come up with a taxonomy of comments. There are a limited number of categories necessary:
    outraged Catholic
    ridicule of outraged Catholic
    concern troll
    fatwa envy
    one-liner
    psychopathic analogy by Pete Rooke
    ridicule of psychopathic analogy by Pete Rooke
    etc.
    Sub-types could be elucidated, and the numbing repetition that characterizes the whole thing could be quantified.

  204. #204 Dennis N
    September 29, 2008

    So Pete, is your suggestion that we censor the internet? Do you have an understanding of how the internet works? How would we censor it? There are many, many, many more video sites beyond Youtube. It is my opinion that current software for monitoring childrens’ use of computers is sufficient. Do you know what a whitelist is?

  205. #205 Natalie
    September 29, 2008

    One has to smell the stench surrounding the local library’s two computer stations to know what type of activity people get up to on there.

    Dude, if you are smelling websites you need to get some professional help. You’re hallucinating.

  206. #206 Celtic_Evolution
    September 29, 2008

    Well, Pete… the key to making sure kids can handle content seen on the web is, IMHO, for parents to make sure they raise their kids to put things into the proper context and reason out right and wrong for themselves.

    Unfortunately, when you’ve been raised to believe unquestionably in a magic sky fairy who will smite your eyes out if you touch yourself, context is difficult to attain, and ability to self-reason becomes compromised.

    Honestly, I have no fear whatsoever that my daughter will be able to contextualize and handle any content she comes across on the web, and I’m there to help her out with honest discussion if she has a problem. (That’s not to say I won’t try to protect her from seeing images that she couldn’t put into context at the age she’s at now.)

    So go ahead and censor the world for your kids, shelter them and hide them under a rock. I’m sure when they grow up and are actually faced with real-world ugliness, they will be well equipped to make the sign of the cross, squeeze their eyes shut, and run screaming about the devil. That’ll make it all better.

  207. #207 Lowell
    September 29, 2008

    Didn’t we find Pete Rooke’s website back during Crackergate? Isn’t he like a minister or something? I can’t find it now.

  208. #208 tsg
    September 29, 2008

    Well, Pete… the key to making sure kids can handle content seen on the web is, IMHO, for parents to make sure they raise their kids to put things into the proper context and reason out right and wrong for themselves.

    I don’t know. That sounds an awful lot like “being involved” to me.

  209. #209 The Science Pundit
    September 29, 2008

    Laurie, #183:

    How serendipitous that the webcomic xkcd.com had something to say about YouTube comments: http://xkcd.com/481/

    And a couple months ago, that other great bastion of truth also had an article about YouTube comments.
    Local Idiot To Post Comment On Internet

  210. #210 Celtic_Evolution
    September 29, 2008

    I don’t know. That sounds an awful lot like “being involved” to me.

    Nothing gets past you, eh tsg? ;)

    I know, I know… it’d be way easier to parent by fear of invisible retribution… but where’s the challenge in that?

  211. #211 E.V.
    September 29, 2008

    Pete Rooke: “Oh we must protect our children from life. We should remove their genitals until they’re adults so they won’t think impure thoughts. We will only televise 1950’& 1960’s programs where it was okay to shoot people as long as no exit wound or any viscera shows, y’know. the way it would in reality. Show ‘em how to kill, but dear gawd, don’t let ‘em know how to fuck… or masterbate… or use curse words. ‘Cause it will drive ‘em to KILL people like Ted Bundy. Now let me tell you how your eucharist defiling is like a snuff film where the whore deserves to die ’cause she shows her titties and wears short skirts”.

    Oh Brother…

  212. #212 E.V.
    September 29, 2008

    Cause it will drive ‘em to KILL people like Ted Bundy.

    Cause it will drive ‘em to KILL people, like Ted Bundy.
    Comma coma.

  213. #213 Rob
    September 29, 2008

    Sorry Rik, but Pete seems to be a few pence short of a pound.

    A few pence? He’s a guinea short of a pound.

  214. #214 GWD
    September 29, 2008

    “Now that you have desecrated the Eucharist and offended me and over a billion Catholics, I would like you to publicly desecrate the Koran.

    I’m waiting to see that marvelous display of “academic freedom.”

    David Lanser”

    I love it. Look how offended he is when he clearly only heard about it from some third party. Had he seen it himself, he’d know that you did desecrate the Koran along with it. So instead, someone told him to be outraged about this and to email you, and without any investigation of his own he went right for it. I bet he’s one of those who believes Obama is a secret Muslim.

  215. #215 k
    September 29, 2008

    Watch the Ted Bundy interview with Dr. James Dobson and then tell me our children should be exposed willy nilly to all of this.

    I heartily agree with Pete for once. No one should be exposed to Dr. James Dobson, willy nilly or otherwise.

  216. #216 WRMartin
    September 29, 2008

    @141:
    But if you are trying to influence anybody’s opinion, you are only pissing upwind, Tx CHL instructor.

    There, fixed that for ya.

  217. #217 Pete Rooke
    September 29, 2008

    E.V.

    Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
    1 Corinthians xv. 33

  218. #218 Nanahuatzin
    September 29, 2008

    Curious about that group, since selling relics was one of the biggest bussiness of the church…

    The bones of saints, the splinters of the “vera cruz”, a finger of a saint there, etc etc. Sometimes incrusted with gold and jewels.

    Every important catholic church has a sanctuary with relics.

    I was inevitable they end at E-bay… Unfortunatelly… (if you take away the dead people parts) some of them are real works of art. So there is need to be some regulation on that market.

    By the way… those guys are not cultist of the death… The cultist of the death are this: The Church of the Holy death..

    http://www.santamuerte.galeon.com/index.html

  219. #219 tsg
    September 29, 2008

    Nothing gets past you, eh tsg? ;)

    I’m quick like that.

    I know, I know… it’d be way easier to parent by fear of invisible retribution… but where’s the challenge in that?

    Only tangentially related, but it reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend of mine who was complaining that he couldn’t go out because he was babysitting. I said, “Dan, when it’s your kid, it’s called ‘parenting’.”

  220. #220 E.V.
    September 29, 2008

    Petey. You lost your bid for civility many posts ago. You can quote as many biblical verses as you like, but I’d rather quote Shakespeare: “The empty vessel makes the loudest sound.” And you Petey, are deafening.

  221. #221 Keith
    September 29, 2008

    YAY, I’m gonna go burn a Jesus-cracker this very minute!

  222. #222 E.V.
    September 29, 2008

    I did do you a disservice up the thread, Pete, and for that I apologize. I’m sure you can spell “masturbate” correctly.

  223. #223 scooter
    September 29, 2008

    Bwahahaha ol’ jesus held up to that nail gun pretty well I thought

  224. #224 Jason
    September 29, 2008

    I love how so many allude to an imminent happening that will change everything for you. Either ‘the light will shine upon you soon’ or ‘you’ll be sorry after you die’. It is, of course, at some indefinite time in the future that is impossible to pin down or verify. What, you mean it hasn’t happened yet? Just wait…

    I’m reminded of the pope on Family Guy:
    [to god]“Smite him!”
    *pause as nothing happens*
    [to Peter]“He’s a cookin’ something up…”

  225. #225 Patricia
    September 29, 2008

    How dare you mock Cheese Whiz, True Bob and Quiet Desperation! That’s down right un-Amerikan. Just you wait, once the CEO of Kraft Foods hears about this. He’ll fatwa the two of you faster than you can say mayonnaise. So there!

  226. #226 Holbach
    September 29, 2008

    Pete Rooke @ 217

    There are two crackers up in the clouds waiting for you and your god. Better get them quick before they are posted on YouTube and turned into crap.

  227. #227 Holbach
    September 29, 2008

    Pete Rooke @ 217

    There are two crackers up in the clouds waiting for you and your god. Better get them quick before they are posted on YouTube and turned into crap.

  228. #228 E.V.
    September 29, 2008

    AHA! Patricia:
    You can’t make pimiento cheese spread out of Cheeze piss Whizz. It blows – no literally, it blows.:-)

  229. #229 Celtic_Evolution
    September 29, 2008

    You can’t make pimiento cheese spread out of Cheeze piss Whizz. It blows – no literally, it blows.:-)

    Yeah, but you can spread it on a cracker without dirtying a utensil… and you can attach shelves to the wall with it… win / win.

  230. #230 Canuck
    September 29, 2008

    Really? There is seriously such a thing as “Professor of cracker magic”?< \blockquote>

    Yeah, that was my reaction too. What a waste of human life to make a study of that.

  231. #231 E.V.
    September 29, 2008

    Bwahahaha ol’ jesus held up to that nail gun pretty well I thought

    He was a carpenter, after all. Have you ever considered how ironic it was, nailing a carpenter to a couple of boards?

  232. #232 Patricia
    September 29, 2008

    E.V. – Blow up Cheese Whiz!

    I may never be the same again…

  233. #233 OctoberMermaid
    September 29, 2008

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkKRtzlQIE4&feature=related

    Check out this asshole. I hope he’s joking.

  234. #234 Lowell
    September 29, 2008

    Okay, I found the Crackergate thread with Pastor Pete Rooke’s website: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/08/so_this_is_what_a_witchunt_loo.php

    (That’s also one of the threads where Pastor Pete goes off the fucking rails with his creepy miniskirt/rape analogies.)

    Unfortunately, the site appears to be down: http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/stchadsomegachurch/

    What’s up Pastor Pete? Is St. Chad’s Omega Church still around or what? How can people make donations now that the site is down?

  235. #235 Dave
    September 29, 2008

    He was a carpenter, after all. Have you ever considered how ironic it was, nailing a carpenter to a couple of boards?

    Well, as it is written, “Live by the sword, die by the sword”

  236. #236 Nick Gotts
    September 29, 2008

    How can you people make mock in this way, when the sacred Dow Jones index is 777 points down?

  237. #237 Patricia
    September 29, 2008

    If good ol’ Pete the perv keeps it up with this Ted Bundy junk I may have to descend into a cascade of obscenities again.

  238. #238 tsg
    September 29, 2008

    If good ol’ Pete the perv keeps it up with this Ted Bundy junk I may have to descend into a cascade of obscenities again.

    I find it saves a lot of time if you just start with the obscenities.

  239. #239 Dutch Delight
    September 29, 2008

    491 results on “fatwa envy” in google now, it seems to have reached reasonable penetration across the tubes of the internet.

    Anyone who wants to make “mainstream media” breakthrough predictions? “New atheist” interviews don’t count.

  240. #240 Patricia
    September 29, 2008

    *New Flash*
    The Catholic League has reviewed Bill Maher’s new movie, and Big Bad Bill says don’t worry, the Catholics can take it. Whew, I was real worried there for a moment.

  241. #241 E.V.
    September 29, 2008

    Nick@#236,
    Perhaps this a Mask of The Red Death moment.

    I’ll just pull out my wallet and fix this little crisis myself…
    Uh-oh. Somebody shoot the fiddle player, Roma is a burnin’. *whimpers*

    ………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    He was a carpenter, after all. Have you ever considered how ironic it was, nailing a carpenter to a couple of boards?
    * * *
    Well, as it is written, “Live by the sword, die by the sword”

    So, what if he had been a mohel?

  242. #242 DJMoore
    September 29, 2008

    I will take these complaints seriously when, in a double-blind test, somebody is able to discriminate between Consecrated Hosts and mundane crackers of the same shape and composition.

    I suppose I should be shocked that so many Christians are talking like Muslims here, but…not so much.

    PZ, I look forward to your desecration of some holy Islamic object. Just in the interest of fairness, objectivity, and multiculturalism, you know.

  243. #243 Sarcastro
    September 29, 2008

    Acts: 9:4-6

    I prefer the KJV iteration of 4:5 “And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.”

    Hehehe.

  244. #244 tsg
    September 29, 2008

    So, what if he had been a mohel?

    Beheading.

  245. #245 E.V.
    September 29, 2008

    DJ. Reading comprehension skills on the fritz? He did it already. Your concern baiting is noted.

  246. #246 tsg
    September 29, 2008

    I will take these complaints seriously when, in a double-blind test, somebody is able to discriminate between Consecrated Hosts and mundane crackers of the same shape and composition.

    I won’t take them seriously until they can tell me what actual, not just perceived, harm is being done by mistreating a cracker.

  247. #247 Dave
    September 29, 2008

    So, what if he had been a mohel?

    Then the Roman’s would be credited with the invention of the cigar clipper.

  248. #248 CJO
    September 29, 2008

    He did it already.

    *sigh*

    No, he didn’t. And that wouldn’t be an adequate response to fatwa envy even if he had.

  249. #249 Dave
    September 29, 2008

    Arrrghh. I apologize for the misuse of the apostrophe. I am sure the Apostrophe Police will be coming for me, I must go into hiding now. . .

  250. #250 cicely
    September 29, 2008

    Pete Rooke @ 192:

    I have never allowed anyone else in my family to use any of the internet unless supervised, but many people foolishly sign the release forms demanded by the school authorities that will allow your children to use the internet (without even notifying the parent when the internet is accessed). Yes content can be blocked but it cannot be 100% effective and the encyclopaedic (and other content) is always available to everyone.

    Pete, do you also vet every book anyone else in your family reads? Do you disapprove of children being given access to the books in the library (without notifying you when the library is accessed)? Yes, the library’s content is generally blocked (with respect to obvious and outright porn, anyway), but it cannot be 100% effective. After all, sometimes vandals write in the books, and draw naughty pictures, and don’t always check their bookmark materials for a universally-acceptable (as if there were such a thing!) moral content, before forgetting to remove them when they check the book back in. For that matter, I don’t believe that libraries generally guarantee that the stacks contain no books containing material that someone, somewhere, may find objectionable. I’m not talking about porn, here, but about books that various people would censor into unavailability to suit their sensibilities (generally over-sensitive, in my opinion).

    Face it, Pete, the world is just chock-full of people/places/things/actions, there is no concensus on which of them should be banned for whom, and if there were, it would be impossible to achieve total enforcement.

    And no, I’m not saying let’s all dunk our kiddies into the metaphorical sewer. Certainly, you can try to prevent them getting hold of material you consider inappropriate. Sooner or later, though, they’re going to get out of your house and out of your control. I’d prefer mine to at least know the sewer is there, explain what is in it, and why they might want to stay out of it, so they can avoid stepping off into it unsuspecting. Naive isn’t necessarily good. And it sure as heck ain’t prepared.

  251. #251 tsg
    September 29, 2008

    Arrrghh. I apologize for the misuse of the apostrophe. I am sure the Apostrophe Police will be coming for me, I must go into hiding now. . .

    Thi’s i’s the internet. An apo’strophe mean’s “here come’s an ‘s'”.

  252. #252 Ichthyic
    September 29, 2008

    How about a special, dedicated version of *Tube.com? First URL that comes to mind is CrackerTube.com.

    what about crackergate.com?

    I just registered it.

    It should be fully set up by tomorrow.

    If anyone is interested, you should be able to send email to ichthyicATcrackergateDOTcom starting tomorrow, and we’ll figure out what and where to host (it’s currently hosted on google).

  253. #253 idahogie
    September 29, 2008

    Drat. I was hoping for pictures. Teh athiest pron. Coulda been good.

    Would atheist pron include wafers? Talk about desecration!

  254. #254 khan
    September 29, 2008

    Who knows what back-slapping and monetary/sexual favors will come his way as the result of his courageous stand?

    Dear Professor Myers: can you send me any of the sexual favors that you do not have time for?
    ——————————
    In the spirit of the Muppets:
    “I am a very naughty boy
    Doo Da
    Doo Da”

  255. #255 E.V.
    September 29, 2008

    tsg:
    You’re a gifted wag.*
    Cicely:
    Well said.*

    *(i.e. I wish I’d said it)

  256. #256 The Hogfather
    September 29, 2008

    Comment 132. Hey E.V. send Terry my best wishes (not my prayers though since that would be pointless). Unfortunately, he is definitely not getting his character’s name back- I post under this name on RichardDawkins.net as well I’ll have you know and have been for over a year.

  257. #257 Nix
    September 29, 2008

    Saint Mary *who*?

    Oh, damn, sounds like a collateral French branch or something. I may have to change my name.

    (In expiation, I have a brothel-keeper as well as a bishop among my ancestors. The brothel-keeper’s moral code is probably closer to mine than the bishop’s.)

    — Nick Alcock, not a saint

  258. #258 Ichthyic
    September 29, 2008

    No, he didn’t.

    are you still going on about the english translation thing?

    here, let me help you:

    compare the response to an unverified consecrated cracker to what THEN was an unverified copy of the Qu’ran.

    go back to the original thread, and find out exactly where we discover where the cracker was or was not correctly consecrated, vs. when we discover that the Qu’ran was or was not a translated version.

    go on, I’ll wait.

    once you’ve done that, do tell me again just how valuable your argument is, given the amount of reaction from Catholics EVEN BEFORE he dumped the cracker in the trash, vs. the reaction from muslims even going months farther back when he talked about desecrating the Qu’ran.

    your argument simply is a waste.

    Moreover, if you’re really concerned about it, why don’t you send PZ a “proper” version of the Qu’ran (not translated – horrors!), and then you can get past this.

  259. #259 OctoberMermaid
    September 29, 2008

    I love that email that says “If I were not already Catholic, I would run to join up. A belief system so maliciously treated must have something of value as its basis.”

    Congratulations, you’re an idiot!

    By that same logic, would this person also rush to become a pedophile since so many people seem to be down on them? Or a serial killer?

  260. #260 E.V.
    September 29, 2008

    #256:
    Noted. Have you considered signing up for Humorless Anonymous?

  261. #261 shen
    September 29, 2008

    “professor of sacramental theology”

    W. T. F.

    death is too good for them……

  262. #262 CJO
    September 29, 2008

    once you’ve done that, do tell me again just how valuable your argument is, given the amount of reaction from Catholics EVEN BEFORE he dumped the cracker in the trash, vs. the reaction from muslims even going months farther back when he talked about desecrating the Qu’ran.

    your argument simply is a waste.

    Moreover, if you’re really concerned about it, why don’t you send PZ a “proper” version of the Qu’ran (not translated – horrors!), and then you can get past this.

    Whoa, whoa. It’s me, dude. Hold your fire.

    It’s not really an argument, (certainly it’s not an argument that I’m making in defense of the loons) as much as it is my belief that it’s simply the wrong response to fatwa envy, which, as I say every time I make the point, is patently stupid, and egregiously hypocritical. Either it is the case that PZ treated an object sacred to Muslims the same way he treated an object (purportedly) sacred to Catholics, or it isn’t. If it isn’t, then we should quit saying he did.

    Shouldn’t we?

    Oh well. I get no traction anyway when I make the point, so I guess I should just shut up and let people A) state a falsehood, and B) miss the point re: fatwa envy.

    For what it’s worth, I also agree that the Catholics have proved themselves to harbor just as many, if not more, frothing, batshit insane holy-warriors as the stereotyped “Muslim terrorists.” But it’s beside the point, for a very narrow value of “the point.”

  263. #263 Ichthyic
    September 29, 2008

    Either it is the case that PZ treated an object sacred to Muslims the same way he treated an object (purportedly) sacred to Catholics, or it isn’t. If it isn’t, then we should quit saying he did.

    the point is, nobody knew until afterwards. It’s quite legitimate to bring up the relative responses of the two different religious “kamps” to the respective proposed denigration of objects that are supposedly ‘sacred’.

    In fact, PZ threated the Qur’an long before he even began to think about crackergate, and yet still, the response from the “Islamic League” amounted to little more than a slight whimper of protest, comparatively speaking.

    My point in challenging yours is simply that the overall point of the demonstration is not mitigated by the fact that we found out later that the Qur’an was a translated copy.

    so, no, while technically accurate in YOUR point, don’t you think it a bit pedantic in the face of the comparative reactions BEFORE the “desecration” even took place?

    For what it’s worth, I also agree that the Catholics have proved themselves to harbor just as many, if not more, frothing, batshit insane holy-warriors as the stereotyped “Muslim terrorists.”

    yup. and that IS the point.

    When people here speak of Catholics with Fatwah envy, they are deliberately speaking to those who MADE THE SUGGESTION in the first place that PZ “wouldn’t consider doing that to an Islamic sacred object”.

    that PZ technically “missed” is entirely beside the point that the Catholics obviously, as demonstrated by the many, many comments and emails received containing the above sentiment, do indeed have Fatwah envy.

    short:

    you have a technically correct point that isn’t worth bringing up in the face of the actual reactions garnered, nor is it even technically accurate in attacking the “fatwah envy” meme.

    I’m not attacking YOU, I’m attacking your usage of a technicality in trying to invalidate what actually is a reasonable and established point.

    Frankly, since PZ himself has brought up the issue on several occasions and made it quite clear that conceptually he has no problems with “desecrating” whatever holy text/object one cares to ponder, I consider this to be a moot point from even a theoretical standpoint.

  264. #264 FSMdude (alias Dominique)
    September 29, 2008

    Hi everybody. It’s just to say thank you for you support guys. If you have any eucharist desecration ideas, you can send them to me at: doom-lemons@hotmail.com

    When I first received the e-mail of HeadlineBistro, I though: “Haven’t they learned the lesson with the Da Vinci Code? Don’t talk about it, and nobody will notice it.” Well, it seems like they didn’t. So I’ve answered their e-mail, quoting you (PZ, your conclusion was awesome. Adding pages from «The God Delusion» was the best part). Now they’re going crazy about it (received about 200 hate mails today).

    Me and my Real Jesus on a Real Cross:
    http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/9012/picture13vm4.jpg

  265. #265 CJO
    September 29, 2008

    and that IS the point.

    It is A point. It’s one we agree on. It just happens not to be the one I’m interested in when I point out that “he did” is A) factually untrue, and B) is a lousy response to fatwa envy. To be absolutely crystal clear, I would consider it a lousy response EVEN IF HE HAD desecrated an object legitimately sacred to Muslims.

    And certainly, it’s “a technicality,” and perhaps “pedantic,” but since when were those high crimes around here?

  266. #266 WRMartin
    September 29, 2008

    Pete Rooke should be banned and classified as incitement to idiocy.
    Hey Pete, the Internet is obviously not all to your liking. Get over it. Get over yourself. If there is something you don’t like please don’t do it. Don’t like broccoli? Don’t eat it! Please don’t insist that we ban broccoli because you don’t approve. We don’t care what you do and don’t approve of. That is between you and your family, well at least those under 18 years old and still living in your house. I disapprove of Answers In Genesis so let’s ban that (also under the newly revised Incitement to Idiocy legislation).

    I disapprove of your disapproval and want you banned. So there!

    P.S. I visited your site when you last attempted to spread your manure here and all I can say is you are quickly qualifying for the 2008 Poe’s Law award.

  267. #267 Ichthyic
    September 29, 2008

    B) is a lousy response to fatwa envy.

    and I still say it’s entirely irrelevant to the issue of fatwa envy, which is entirely based on the response to the threat of desecration, and not even the desecration itself, and supported it in my response to you at 263.

    And certainly, it’s “a technicality,” and perhaps “pedantic,” but since when were those high crimes around here?

    are you feeling a criminal?

    my bad, then.

    as to pedantry…

    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/09/peeeedaaaaaants.php

  268. #268 arensb
    September 29, 2008

    Here you go, somebody is having lots of fun with his crackers.

    I watched a few, and I’m sad to say this idea is better in principle than in execution. I’m sure the guy had fun burning, boiling, nailing, etc. the little hosts, but frankly, it got kinda boring after a while.

    Maybe what the videos need is a bit of razzle-dazzle and showmanship, or at least a funny commentary.

  269. #269 WRMartin
    September 29, 2008

    Ichthyic (#252)
    Added CrackerGate.com to my bookmarks in anticipation…

  270. #270 Ichthyic
    September 29, 2008

    Added CrackerGate.com to my bookmarks in anticipation…

    yeah, it just seemed so perfect, and buying domains through google makes it cheap, too.

    I just couldn’t resist.

    Now I just need people to contact me with the content they would like to see there, or whether we should make it just a youtube mirror for cracker vids, or what.

  271. #271 Wowbagger
    September 29, 2008

    Ah, Pete Rooke. I’m fascinated by your condemnation of Ted Bundy; considering the numerous necrophiliac rape/torture fantasies you’ve displayed on other threads I’d have expected him to have been an idol of yours. No doubt you’ll say that those women probably deserved it, perhaps because they weren’t good catholics, or were wearing suggestive clothing.

    And Wikipedia tells us that Bundy was, of course, religious:

    Bundy was a good student at Woodrow Wilson High School, in Tacoma, and was active in a local Methodist church, serving as vice-president of the Methodist Youth Fellowship.

  272. #272 FSMdude
    September 29, 2008

    Arensb: «I watched a few, and I’m sad to say this idea is better in principle than in execution. I’m sure the guy had fun burning, boiling, nailing, etc. the little hosts, but frankly, it got kinda boring after a while.»

    I admit, yes it can become boring. But the challenge is to think of many ways as possible to desecrate them.

    I suggest you take a look at the one where I smoke a eucharist with a bong, I consider this my masterpiece (probably a world’s first).

  273. #273 E.V.
    September 29, 2008

    Pete just yearns for the good old days of American Puritanism. He and Cotton Mather would have been best buds. A hundred years later he and Anthony Comstock would have been close chums.
    He’s part of a larger group that wants to protect everyone from themselves and for the Lord. And they have no clue how misguided and warped they are.

  274. #274 Ichthyic
    September 29, 2008

    Bundy was a good student at Woodrow Wilson High School, in Tacoma, and was active in a local Methodist church, serving as vice-president of the Methodist Youth Fellowship.

    yeah…

    some of us deal with cognitive dissonance better than others.

    …but I’m sure Petey is well aware of that fact (and living in denial just to prove it!)

  275. #275 Ichthyic
    September 29, 2008

    I suggest you take a look at the one where I smoke a eucharist with a bong, I consider this my masterpiece (probably a world’s first).

    not to jump the gun, but if your vids get booted from the ‘tube (which seems at least a slight possibility), you might have noticed I just purchased crackergate.com, and we could probably figure out how to mirror them there, if you so wished.

    It should be ready by tomorrow. just email me at either:

    ichthyicATcrackergateDOTcom (if it’s working)
    or
    fisheyephotosAThotmailDOTcom (if it’s not yet)

    you’re a braver man than I, Gunga Din.

  276. #276 bonefish
    September 29, 2008

    Ok, I’m a bit behind but…

    “in the name of the university”

    Say what?

  277. #277 The Cheerful Nihilist
    September 29, 2008

    Dave @ #235

    He was a carpenter, after all. Have you ever considered how ironic it was, nailing a carpenter to a couple of boards?

    Well, as it is written, “Live by the sword, die by the sword”

    Uh, shouldn’t that be “live by the board, die by the board.”

  278. #278 Wowbagger
    September 29, 2008

    I have to thank Pete Rooke for leading me to that particular gem about Bundy. I did recall his last-minute condemnation of pornography but wanted to double-check if he’d said anything else of interest – I just happened to spot that sentence and decided that if using Bundy as an argument was good enough for Pete ‘Sick Fuck’ Rooke, it’s good enough for me.

  279. #279 Dustin
    September 29, 2008

    Msgr. C. Eugene Morris, professor of sacramental theology

    The fact that someone actually has that as their title makes me wish that there was really a God and that he was about to break open the seals and pour his apocalyptic wrath over the face of the Earth.

  280. #280 Carlie
    September 29, 2008

    Repent before you die howling like the dogs of hell with a soul full of hatred!!

    That’s my favorite line. I just had to repeat it. And “Howling dogs of hell” would be a great name for a band.

    As someone still an active member of the Jewish community, I don’t know how I would feel about a Torah being desecrated on Youtube.

    Don’t forget the context. PZ didn’t desecrate the cracker just for shits and giggles, it was a direct response to a pretty nasty action. The analogy would be that someone desecrates a Torah on youtube because they’re furious that a kid tried to carry a Torah back to his pew to show his friend and got assaulted for it, then threatened expulsion from his university.

  281. #281 wookerist
    September 29, 2008

    (+)

  282. #282 Eric Paulsen
    September 29, 2008

    Who knows what back-slapping and monetary/sexual favors will come his way as the result of his courageous stand?

    SEXUAL FAVORS!?! So I’m guessing the P in PZ stands for pimptastic?

  283. #283 Ichthyic
    September 29, 2008

    Whoa, whoa. It’s me, dude. Hold your fire.

    yeah, in thinking about it, I came across way too strong.

    I chalk it up to a very bad day, exacerbated by underlying financial issues (which change on a moment-to-moment basis, it seems) directly related to the current fucktardish mess which just has me in a state of Deja-vu reflecting back to the S and L “crisis” in the late 80s.

    I so much wanna get outta here, and this shit keeps delaying me!

    sorry.

  284. #284 Wowbagger
    September 29, 2008

    Carlie, #280

    I think it’d be a better analogy would be to liken it to a kid taking a piece of paper with the word ‘Torah’ written on it back to his pew and was assaulted and threatened with expulsion for it. That better illustrates how nonsensical the catholic response was.

  285. #285 CJO
    September 29, 2008

    sorry.

    No worries, man. I just didn’t want to get lumped in with the fatwa enviers for what amounts to a minor, pedantic, even, disagreement.

    Here’s to hoping you weather the fucktardish mess okay and you can set sail soon.

  286. #286 Ichthyic
    September 29, 2008

    Here’s to hoping you weather the fucktardish mess okay and you can set sail soon.

    thanks

    I’d cross my fingers, but…

    ;)

  287. #287 Owlmirror
    September 29, 2008

    I think it’d be a better analogy would be to liken it to a kid taking a piece of paper with the word ‘Torah’ written on it back to his pew and was assaulted and threatened with expulsion for it.

    Actually, “Torah” isn’t a sacred word, in and of itself.

    But this:

    ????

    …is the name of God. Yahweh, that is.

    There might be trouble if some kid was mistreating something with that written or printed on it or in it.

    I’m just saying.

  288. #288 Kel
    September 29, 2008

    what about crackergate.com?

    I just registered it.

    Pure win!

  289. #289 Owlmirror
    September 29, 2008

    Which reminds me, though:

    Judith McGuinn wrote:

    A belief system so maliciously treated must have something of value as its basis.

    So, Judith, when are you going to talk to a Rabbi about converting to Judaism?

  290. #290 defaithed
    September 29, 2008

    I wasn’t aware that cracker-cracking was spreading as a sport, on YouTube and elsewhere. I have to say, I am genuinely proud to see this! The comically enraged reactions from loonies are only going to crank it up a notch, too.

    (Heh. I earlier sent PZ an email to let him know I enshrined his Euch-adventure in a cartoon – and I’ll bet it just ended up in his “eucharist auto-trash folder”. Oh well. : )
    http://www.defaithed.com/pac_zach_man

    Laughter is the best weapon against the self-important. This worldwide hubbub is great stuff; thanks again to PZ for playing a part.

  291. #291 Sir Jebbington
    September 29, 2008

    I love how the one guy says “over a billion Catholics” and later one of them says “67 million Catholics worldwide”. Are these people just eyeballing it?

  292. #292 Ichthyic
    September 29, 2008

    So, Judith, when are you going to talk to a Rabbi about converting to Judaism Satanism?

  293. #293 The Science Pundit
    September 29, 2008

    (Heh. I earlier sent PZ an email to let him know I enshrined his Euch-adventure in a cartoon – and I’ll bet it just ended up in his “eucharist auto-trash folder”. Oh well. : )
    http://www.defaithed.com/pac_zach_man

    WIN!

  294. #294 Ichthyic
    September 29, 2008

    Pure win!

    only if I get some help with content.

    until the domain actually goes “live” (hopefully tomorrow) you can send suggestions here:

    fisheyephotosAThotmailDOTcom

  295. #295 Wowbagger
    September 29, 2008

    Owlmirror,

    Re: ‘Torah’ – I didn’t realise Judaism had ‘sacred’ words; that wasn’t what I intended to imply. It was just the closest thing I could come up with as an analogy.

    That being said, if a Jewish kid was persecuted for disrespecting a piece of paper with their word for their god on it, I’d be just as happy to see PZ throw that in the trash as well.

  296. #296 Becca
    September 29, 2008

    Who knows what back-slapping and monetary/sexual favors will come his way as the result of his courageous stand?
    PZ, I would like to take this opportunity to slap you on the back and offer you monetary/sexual favors as a result of your courageous stand.
    Except we’re both in committed relationships and I’m a poor grad student. So it’s gonna have to be a relatively chaste backrub and $1.42. But at least you can say you got an offer
    ;-)

    “This could not happen at our beloved Penn State.”
    Oh, why must they bait me thus?
    See, I told Dawkins he should come visit us.

  297. #297 Pandora Neurospora
    September 29, 2008

    I must say defaithed that your captcha is the best I have ever seen. It may even stop those raving lunatics dead in their tracks.
    =)

  298. #298 Kel
    September 29, 2008

    only if I get some help with content.

    Maybe some Pharyngulites could write some essays on the matter. Maybe have a timeline on events. Ways to support Webster Cook. Facts about Bill Donohue.

    I don’t know, I’d be happy to help out tbh

  299. #299 Ichthyic
    September 29, 2008

    Maybe some Pharyngulites could write some essays on the matter. Maybe have a timeline on events. Ways to support Webster Cook. Facts about Bill Donohue.

    all excellent ideas, thanks.


    I don’t know, I’d be happy to help out tbh

    shoot me an email, I can use all the help I can get, especially early on.

    I’m hoping we can eventually make it so that any money raised by the site (through ads or whatever) will go to a worthy cause, like:

    http://www.natcenscied.org/

    Or:

    http://www.auohio.org/

    or even:

    http://www.aclu.org/

    or all 3, for that matter.

    but first off, I just want to have fun loading it with content, and have it be a repository of all things cracker-related (maybe a mirror for the related youtube vids, too).

  300. #300 clinteas
    September 29, 2008

    E.V. @ 117 wrote:

    //As for a majority of MD’s and DO’s, they are notoriously religious which frightens me a little. Technology and training are the only things that separate them from Shamans.//

    Care to back that up with some data?
    I assume you were referring to the US,where 50% of people believe the earth is 6000 years old.Why would it be different in one particular subset? But it certainly apply to the rest of the world.

  301. #301 Carlie
    September 29, 2008

    I didn’t realise Judaism had ‘sacred’ words; that wasn’t what I intended to imply.

    Aw, man, now my mind will be plagued with trying to think of what that short story was. It was the one about the guy who made automata, and they were brought to life by placing their name on a piece of paper inside, and he came up with a self-replicating one and everyone was threatened by it… what was that story????? (Was it a Gaiman?)

  302. #302 Kel
    September 29, 2008

    shoot me an email, I can use all the help I can get, especially early on.

    I’m quite busy over the next few days, but after that I should be able to help. Is it just content you want help with?

  303. #303 Wowbagger
    September 29, 2008

    Carlie,

    You’re thinking of the Golem of Prague. It’s a kind of a Jewish folk tale.

    I don’t know what Gaiman’s written about it, but it’s referenced in the Michael Chabon novel The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay. There’s also a Simpsons Hallowe’en special that features it.

  304. #304 Ichthyic
    September 29, 2008

    Is it just content you want help with?

    probably. I can’t think of anything else other than having lots of folks collecting worthwhile content to slap up there.

    I’ll work out some basic layout tomorrow, set up access for those who want to add content, and then let the chips – er, wafers – fall where they may.

    :)

  305. #305 jimellismusic
    September 29, 2008

    I was going to read through the comments to see if I was duplicating someone’s sentiments, but there are far too many and good for you. Anyway, what I was going to say is that I would have had to award some grudging respect to the CC if their highest American spokesman had come out and said “Without faith….. it’s just a cracker.”
    nothin’ but luv
    jim

  306. #306 jimellismusic
    September 29, 2008

    I forgot to ask you if I could call you “P Zed”. Hahahahaha. That Richy Dawkins gets me every time.
    nbl
    jim

  307. #307 Feynmaniac
    September 29, 2008

    Pete Rooke #165,
    “If they can ban incitement to violence why can they not take a stand against this perverse content that plagues the web site?”

    For those unfamiliar with The Rooke here are some classics of his:

    “Here is an analogy you might understand. Suppose you had a very sacred book outlining your philosophy on life. This book also happened to be stitched together and bound in the skin and flesh of a loved one who had recently passed away.”

    “Suppose your are an embalmer. You are busy embalming a person for an open coffin ceremony and you decide to pilfer there lush locks of blonde hair for the construction of high class wigs….”

    For some twisted reason these “analogies” popped into this head.

    Now, Pete, if people were censored for “perverse content” wouldn’t the above comments qualify?

    Oh and yeah this comment falls under Sven’s category of “ridicule of psychopathic analogy by Pete Rooke”. I’m sorry, I just can’t help myself. I’ve never encountered such a rich source of unintentional humour before.

  308. #308 Ichthyic
    September 29, 2008

    I plan on featuring several of Petey’s quotes on crackergate.com, so if you have others you’ve noted, round ‘em up and shoot me an email.

    thanks.

    congrats, Pete! you’re gonna be part of a whole new domain!

  309. #309 PYRETTE
    September 29, 2008

    Well PZ, how many sexual favours HAVE you recieved as a result of crackergate?

  310. #310 Kel
    September 29, 2008

    Just read the emails, they seem to have the same dull tedium. “I’m indignant, you aren’t being very tolerant, you wouldn’t do this to muslims, I’ll pray for you”. It’s like the Catholic League has a template and gets the outraged to play a game of fill in the blanks. Quite pathetic, and they all miss the point.

  311. #311 clinteas
    September 29, 2008

    Make that “does not apply” in my No 300.

  312. #312 Paul Lundgren
    September 29, 2008

    You know, it’s only a matter of time before we get Eucharist porn. Wouldn’t you love to see Bill Donohue’s reaction to THAT concept?

  313. #313 Ichthyic
    September 29, 2008

    You know, it’s only a matter of time before we get Eucharist porn.

    I can’t wrap my head around what that would look like.

    help me out?

  314. #314 Trish
    September 29, 2008

    The page is too long. Who brought the serial killer into this? lol

    A tale of two brothers: Danny and Kevin Rolling grew up in the same household, with the same parents .. the father, a sadist who beat the boys continuously, was also a police officer. There was no end to their suffering.

    Making a long anecdote short. One grew up to be a serial killer. The other grew up to be a priest.

    Let’s not talk Bundy.

  315. #315 Wowbagger
    September 29, 2008

    I think we’ve got to be careful with what we say to Pete Rooke as I wouldn’t want him to ever give up his faith. Why? Because he sounds like one of those truly sick individuals who only refrains from raping and killing (probably not in that order) because he fears the scary sky-bully’s retaliation.

    Whenever he posts I get an image of a creepy little man typing away in a darkened room crammed full of stuffed dead animals with a Psycho poster and maybe a framed photo or two of Ed Gein on the walls.

  316. #316 Feynmaniac
    September 29, 2008

    Ichthyic #308,

    A while back I cataloged some of the funniest comments from crackergate. Feel free to use those.

    My personal favourite (besides Petey’s, of course):

    SFG

    “Zan,
    That’s spelled r-e-l-i-g-I-o-n. Sorry, but there’s no E in that word. See what I mean about the IQ on here.”

  317. #317 Kel
    September 29, 2008

    You know, it’s only a matter of time before we get Eucharist porn.

    I can’t wrap my head around what that would look like.

    help me out?

    I could only imagine it would be like a game of soggy sao.

  318. #318 Pandora Neurospora
    September 29, 2008

    Can’t you see it, Ichthyic? Some woman suggestively licking the Eucharist whilst Robert Palmer’s Bad Case Of Loving You is playing in the background…

    Thats hot.

  319. #319 Carlie
    September 29, 2008

    Wowbagger – thanks for the link. I didn’t know it was a folk tale. From the article, I’m pretty sure the story I read was Ted Chiang’s Seventy-Two Letters. Now I can sleep!

  320. #320 Ichthyic
    September 29, 2008

    I could only imagine it would be like a game of soggy sao.

    *bing*

    Limp Biscuit it is, then.

    I’ll have to make that part of the “naughty bits” section of the site.

  321. #321 Ichthyic
    September 29, 2008

    @316

    bookmarked.

  322. #322 SEF
    September 29, 2008

    shoot me an email

    Speaking of which, there should be a page for any hate-mail received, including law-suits started against you or your site (as per the PZ and YouTube ones).

    PS My immediate reaction to that was “smoke me a kipper” (from Red Dwarf). Then again, since you’re calling the site “crackergate” I also thought there should be crackergate pencils (cf. UK CrackerJack) on offer …

  323. #323 ignatov
    September 29, 2008

    Rik: “I was gratefull for the cracker/wafer because I was hungry, and a bit disappointed that it was so little food and tasted so bad….”

    This reminds me of an old joke:

    Diner #1: “The food here is terrible!”
    Diner #2: “I know! And the portions are so small!”

  324. #324 SEF
    September 29, 2008

    @ 321: That’s getting quite close to poaching on FSTDT territory – not that there’s necessarily anything wrong with some duplication there too. Although perhaps you were planning to restrict it to remarks made in connection with crackergate.

    Should the site include some pretend polls to “crash”?

    How about a module for “what your name would be if you were a consecrated cracker”.

  325. #325 Ichthyic
    September 29, 2008

    Although perhaps you were planning to restrict it to remarks made in connection with crackergate.

    ayup.

  326. #326 Ichthyic
    September 29, 2008

    there should be a page for any hate-mail received

    think we’ll get hate mail?

    gosh, I hope so.

    ;)

  327. #327 Ichthyic
    September 29, 2008

    How about a module for “what your name would be if you were a consecrated cracker”.

    how bout a spoof on the Vagina Monologues called “The Cracker Monologues”?

  328. #328 Patricia
    September 29, 2008

    The few times I have wandered off onto another Seed blog, or blog of a commenter here I have never seen sluts, strumpets, whores, drunks or bounders of any sort posting. PZ must have the market cornered on all of us reprobates.

    Humm, I’m trying to think of how I can get a cracker so I can send Ichthyic a picture of the well filled blouse with an Emerson squid pendant around the neck and a cracker in the cleavage…or does that even remotely classify as cracker porn?

    To delight that sicko Scooter I can send a shot of a cracker stuck between my jugs.

    Then there’s the chicken pucky. I have no roosters so wouldn’t that qualify as Virgin cracker desecration?

    Dammit! I don’t know any catholics.

    Please don’t ban ol’ Petey, we should study him. He’s such a complete ass I think we can handle him. Besides what could be more embarrassing than becoming a ‘pet troll’.
    Gawd on Pete, you fucktard.

  329. #329 windy
    September 29, 2008

    “Your disciplining of Paul Z. Myers for desecrating the the Eucharist was not adequate. You will have to do more like terminating him or giving him a very long suspension.”

    i think scheduling PZ for termination is a bit harsh. besides, i don’t think the Cyberdyne Systems Model 101 has been put into production yet.

    maybe they could tie him to a bed and spank him instead?

    And post that on YouTube!

  330. #330 Arnosium Upinarum
    September 29, 2008

    Man. I don’t know where to begin. I’ll pick one.

    “As a scientist, I am objective. But I also know that there is an existence I cannot see. If someone else does not believe the same, I do not criticize them…A belief system so maliciously treated must have something of value as its basis.” – Judith McGuinn, [allegedly] MD

    I wouldn’t want HER to be my doctor. She must run around hospital corridors insisting that the diseases that other docs treat so maliciously must be good for the patients. Her objectivity would kill a horse on sight.

  331. #331 Ichthyic
    September 30, 2008

    Humm, I’m trying to think of how I can get a cracker so I can send Ichthyic a picture of the well filled blouse with an Emerson squid pendant around the neck and a cracker in the cleavage…or does that even remotely classify as cracker porn?

    I dunno, but I’ll take it.

    :)

  332. #332 PZ Myers
    September 30, 2008

    Windy, that scene is already on YouTube.

  333. #333 Ichthyic
    September 30, 2008

    Windy, that scene is already on YouTube.

    Ha! I knew you were one of the knights of the round table.

    naughty boy, indeed.

  334. #334 windy
    September 30, 2008

    Has this quote come up in the cracker wars before? It’s perfect, if depressing.

    When we call corn “Ceres” or the vine “Bacchus” we are using a familiar figure of speech. But do you think that there is really anybody so mad as to believe that the food which he eats is a god?

    Yes, Marcus, there are.

  335. #335 spinetingler
    September 30, 2008

    This could not happen at our beloved Penn State.

    That sounds like a challenge!

    C’mon, PS’ers – give us some desecration!

  336. #336 windy
    September 30, 2008

    Windy, that scene is already on YouTube.

    Somehow I never pictured you in a wimple!

  337. #337 SC
    September 30, 2008

    The few times I have wandered off onto another Seed blog, or blog of a commenter here I have never seen sluts, strumpets, whores, drunks or bounders of any sort posting. PZ must have the market cornered on all of us reprobates.

    So, just returned from Boston Skeptics with MAJeff. I can assure you that we’re all of those things, and more, which is why we fit right in here. Jeff is, surprisingly, painfully shy, but we did meet or chat with a few really cool people. Overall, we had a ball, as always. Thanks to Rebecca and Blake.

    Besos,

    SC

  338. #338 Defaithed
    September 30, 2008

    @Pandora: “I must say defaithed that your captcha is the best I have ever seen. It may even stop those raving lunatics dead in their tracks.”

    You mean because the Captcha uses a simple arithmetic challenge? I never thought of it, but you’re right: that might keep out the fundies! (Especially the home-schooled ones.)

    Hmm, ideas for other interesting Captchas come to mind. Like the “which of these does not belong” type of challenge question:

    “Which is not just a cracker: 1) Ritz 2) Saltine 3) Eucharist 4) Toyota Camry”

    And poof: no comments from the Catholic contingent! : )

  339. #339 Defaithed
    September 30, 2008

    @Pete Rooke: “One has to smell the stench surrounding the local library’s two computer stations to know what type of activity people get up to on there.”

    Sir, this is your final warning:

    Stop sniffing the library seats.

    -The Librarian

  340. #340 Patricia
    September 30, 2008

    I keep telling you Ilk – there IS a spanking couch.
    Oh ye of little faith.

  341. #341 Ichthyic
    September 30, 2008

    So, just returned from Boston Skeptics with MAJeff.

    and you have no pictures to show for it??

    grr.

  342. #342 Patricia
    September 30, 2008

    SC – I SOOOO miss MAJeff!
    Blah, blah, blah…
    Come back Jeff, you whore!

  343. #343 Kel
    September 30, 2008

    @Pete Rooke

    No one has yet responded to my concerns raised about the effect of this content.

    One has to smell the stench surrounding the local library’s two computer stations to know what type of activity people get up to on there.

    Are you saying that people get off over cracker desecration? Ritualistic cannibalism is one thing, but do you think that young boys love jesus that much they have to watch the cracker equivalent of S&M?

    “Oh look, Jesus is getting nailed” *fap* *fap* *fap*

  344. #344 Patricia
    September 30, 2008

    There goes Kel – descending into a cascade of obscenities.

  345. #345 SC
    September 30, 2008

    I keep telling you Ilk – there IS a spanking couch.

    Er…


    No comment.

    and you have no pictures to show for it??

    I debated. Had I been going alone, there would’ve been no question. But when I go out with someone, that’s my focus – and as I said, it was super fun. Liked yours from LA, though.

    grr.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Save it for an email. :)

  346. #346 Kel
    September 30, 2008

    There goes Kel – descending into a cascade of obscenities.

    And I didn’t even have to use the word fuckcunt.

  347. #347 Ichthyic
    September 30, 2008

    fuckcunt

    Is that a verb, an adjective, or a noun?

  348. #348 Patricia
    September 30, 2008

    Dammit, somebody figure out the cracker thing. Icthyic needs some porn for his new website.
    Will a Ritz do? How about a square Nabisco? I need a cracker.
    The bosom, jugs and chickens are loaded and ready for duty.
    Those of you that are afraid of hate mail and dumbass catholic death threats might want to hold off.
    Me, bring it to my front door. *grin* May your gawd help you.

  349. #349 Kel
    September 30, 2008

    Is that a verb, an adjective, or a noun?

    How would you use it if you had no contextual information?

  350. #350 Ichthyic
    September 30, 2008

    How would you use it if you had no contextual information?

    I wouldn’t.

    ;)

  351. #351 Patricia
    September 30, 2008

    Oh, now see, there goes Kel!
    Ichthyic calls for porn, and Kel spouts off with the latest movement in Jazzercise.

  352. #352 Kel
    September 30, 2008

    I wouldn’t.

    ;)

    Aren’t you the total fuckcunt then… :P

  353. #353 Ichthyic
    September 30, 2008

    aha! it’s an adjective.

    Is it the feminized form of the more neutral “fucktard”?

  354. #354 Ichthyic
    September 30, 2008

    …then again, fucktard can be used as a noun, too.

    *sigh*

  355. #355 Christophe Thill
    September 30, 2008

    The… the “eucharist autotrash folder”!!! Now you’ve automated the process!

    Oh, by the way, I too object to selling relics of the saints on eBay. Because it’s human remains, and it’s just, well, creepy to sell them. Except, of course, if it’s bits of animal bones. Which I’m sure it is in at least a few cases.

  356. #356 Kel
    September 30, 2008

    What really irritates me is that they don’t, at the very least, place an age restriction (with verification) on other more pervasive videos which are also particularly vile.

    This doesn’t just apply to host desecration (which should be banned and classified as incitement to violence)

    Pete, just curious if you’ve been taking your meds lately. If we ban the smashing of crackers, next it will be cookies. The cookie monster will be out of a job (serves him right for eating fruit these days anyway the sellout – he should have just had a heart attack and died like all those who defile the cookie host.) Soon romance films will need a new cliche as the italian restaurant has the breaking of bread. Then what? The humble apple pie will go. As it incites violence to see that innocert dessert be destroyed by overweight simpletons in the background to a detective story at a diner…

    No baked goods will be safe unless we take a stand here and now. We need to rise up and say “Enough! It’s our duty to destroy the cracker, not for our freedom but the freedom of others. For the freedom of our children, and our children’s children. For this is a cracker, this humble little symbol has fed many a starving Catholic as they sat cold and hungry in their church. It’s to sustain human life, not to be placed above it. This is FREEDOM!”

  357. #357 Ichthyic
    September 30, 2008

    …sung to the tune of:

    “glory, glory halleluuuujahhh!”

    :P

    is pizza considered a “baked good”?

    I mean, you have me a little worried, now.

  358. #358 Ichthyic
    September 30, 2008

    “Aye, fight and you may die. Run, and you’ll live… at least a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willin’ to trade ALL the days, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they’ll never take… OUR BAKED GOODS!”

  359. #359 Ichthyic
    September 30, 2008

    …sung to the tune of:

    “glory, glory halleluuuujahhh!”

    it’s late. what I meant was:

    with the tune of… playing softly in the background.

  360. #360 Snark7
    September 30, 2008

    There simply is no difference in addiction and delusion between crackheads and crackerheads.

  361. #361 Ichthyic
    September 30, 2008

    It’s… Camelot!

    (It’s only a model)

    shhh!

    http://www.crackergate.com/

  362. #362 Gavin McBride
    September 30, 2008

    I am waiting in keen anticipation for the catholics to start posting response videos on you tube of Cephalopod desecration :)

  363. #363 Kel
    September 30, 2008

    is pizza considered a “baked good”?

    In a way. It’s also foreign, therefore dangerous! We can’t have kids exposed to these foreign cultures, they want nothing more than to destroy our way of life.

    “Aye, fight and you may die. Run, and you’ll live… at least a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willin’ to trade ALL the days, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they’ll never take… OUR BAKED GOODS!”

    awesome

  364. #364 Ichthyic
    September 30, 2008

    In a way. It’s also foreign, therefore dangerous! We can’t have kids exposed to these foreign cultures, they want nothing more than to destroy our way of life.

    there’s two of them hiding in the fridge RIGHT NOW… and one of them is a “deep dish”!!!!

    Whatever should I do??

    *whimper*

    Cephalopod desecration

    I LIKE this idea. I think I’ll add some pics or vids of some good squid dissections to crackergate, and label them “cephalopod desecrations”.

    fun AND educational.

  365. #365 moother
    September 30, 2008

    puuuhhhleeeeeeeeeeease SOMEBODY

    cut a cookie into a star of david…

    soooo much fun to be had.

  366. #366 SEF
    September 30, 2008

    @ #364:

    Whatever should I do??

    Let those kids get safely out of the fridge immediately!

    ;-)

  367. #367 CosmicTeapot
    September 30, 2008

    “fuckcunt – Is that a verb, an adjective, or a noun?”

    Hopefully an order.

  368. #368 CosmicTeapot
    September 30, 2008

    I took Judith McGuinns advice to say every day “God, if You are real, prove it to me.”

    No reply as of yet. I think he’s busy!

  369. #369 SEF
    September 30, 2008

    Re crackergate content:

    Is there going to be a crackergate site mascot (other than Webster Cook or PZ), ie like Prof.Steve Steve? Or, since all eucharists are allegedly consecrated equal, can any of them be equivalently photographed making out with various other crackers in public places all over the world? Eg “Jez U. Charist caught in threesome with Salty Ritz and Mini Cheddar”.

    The equivalent of a Project Steve might be to find as many atheists, agnostics and philosophical buddhists (as opposed to the religious sub-type) as possible with the name “Jesus” (or derivatives thereof). Though I don’t know what, if any, female variants of the name might exist.

  370. #370 SEF
    September 30, 2008

    Some more potential content for your crackergate site, Ichthyic. NB to George Michael’s “Faith”, from a (back-dated) vaguely Webster Cook-ish point of view:

    well I guess it would be nice
    if I could eat your body
    I know not every wafer
    will be a cracker like you

    but I’ve gotta pray twice
    before the magic words I say
    within this weird religious play
    will make your godhood true

    oh but I
    need some time off from that emotion
    time to pick my wits up off the floor
    and when your lie comes down
    with blind devotion
    well it takes a sane man, priesty,
    but I’m leaving through the door

    ’cause you gotta have faith
    oh you gotta have faith
    because you gotta have faith-faith,
    you gotta have faith-a-faith-a-faith

    priesty
    I know you’re telling me to stay
    when you’re assaulting me that way
    you say I’m causing you distress
    maybe
    you mean every word you say
    can’t help but think of yesterday
    and another priest paedophile in altarboy mess

    before your kidder
    begets a motion
    before you throw my status to the floor
    oh priesty you reconsider
    your foolish notion
    well I need someone to help me
    but I’ll wait for something more

    yes you gotta have faith …

  371. #371 Sh0rtWave
    September 30, 2008

    I would like to point out one thing that many of you have probably overlooked.

    With regard to being “offensive”: You are CHOOSING to be offended.

    In the bible, when Jesus talks about “turning the other cheek”, that lesson could just as easily be turned to this purpose, where one might say “These athiests have offended my morality” (one might even say it’s tantamount to a figurative slap on the cheek), so why not simply follow the stated rule and turn the other cheek to bear same affront?

    In my opinion, this is all much ado about nothing. It seems to me that your grasp on (and understanding of) your faith is rather shaky if you let something like this challenge it to the point that you actually become offended.

    Always remember: Being offended by something is a CHOICE you make. Choose your affronts wisely.

    FYI: I myself am an atheist.

  372. #372 E.V.
    September 30, 2008

    #300:
    Sorry Clinteas, I tend to be US-centric when posting here. Shame on me.
    There is a good deal of data on line to support my assertion that MD’s & DO’s (in the US) tend to be religious, although they claim they don’t leave treatment of the patient up to god. Yet, any failure in patient care can be summed up ultimately to god’s will. Nice escape clause rationalization solace for the supernatural belief crowd.
    http://www.medpagetoday.com/PublicHealthPolicy/PracticeManagement/tb1/1237

  373. #373 E.V.
    September 30, 2008

    Posted by: Wch | September 29, 2008 12:10 PM
    PZ, stop being such a dick, will you?

    Sure. When you stop being such a pussy.

  374. #374 CmZ
    September 30, 2008

    Sigh. This has nothing to do with whose beliefs are irrational and whose are not. It’s just a petty little act of bullying.

    What if you took a beloved picture of someone’s mother, distributed it to people around the world, took videos of people crapping on it, flushing it down the toilet, doing all sorts of nastiness to it, and published these videos on the internet?

    OBJECTIVELY it’s just paper and ink, nobody’s being hurt. We should show that whackjob how silly and irrational it is to have emotions over some Epson photo paper, right? He deserves it, the bastard. Hmmmm. I would bet even most uber-rational people would get some pangs at seeing a symbol of a loved one trashed in such a way. Not because they love paper and ink, but because something they have emotions for is being *deliberately singled out and publicly desecrated.*

    Why not dress a friend in a Santa suit and beat the hell out of him, then send the video to a children’s hospital? Serves them right for believing in such nonsense, stupid irrational brats, right?

    My friend believes he has to wear his lucky jersey when watching football games, or else his team will lose. What a freaking idiot! Clearly the best response is to steal his jersey and take a dump on it. I have to protest against his stupid belief, right?

    My grandmother wears a bracelet that belonged to her husband who has passed away. It means a great deal to her and she claims it gives her comfort when times are hard. But I, being much smarter, know that it’s just a bracelet, no different than any other bracelet. Why don’t I take it off her wrist and start stomping on it? It’s just some metal and stone, and she’s crazy for having any emotional attachment to it–this is a great way to illustrate that point for her!

    It doesn’t matter if YOU think it’s silly or if YOU think they should get over their beliefs. If you believe religion is harmful, there are a thousand meaningful ways to make your opinion known. But this is just petty and rude. Leave them alone.

  375. #375 Mark
    September 30, 2008

    I believe every Eucharist Cracker is born Holy at conception!

    So we should be visiting the Eucharist Cracker factories and performing surprise inspections to verify that no crackers are being murderously culled in a bitter harvest that results in some innocent, HOLY crackers with minor flaws being viciously trashed in a greasy dumpster!

    Who speaks for the cracked, the chipped, the bent, the broken, the fused ones, the one that, through no fault of their own, have been misshapen?

    In Indiana it came to light that a cracker factory is sending its “leftover crumbs” — my GOODNESS, how can they USE that phrase — we are talking about HOLY crackers with SOULS — to a pet food factory, where the Holy bits are mixed with road kill and horse meat! Even worse, some is sent to feed lazy children in Africa, including MUSLIMS!

    Oh, how can we address this terrible crime against all that is Holy?

    Please join me in lobbying Congress to support a bill that bans the slaughter and wanton destruction of Holy remnants at the hands of misguidedly perfectionist cracker factory sinners.

  376. #376 Steve_C
    September 30, 2008

    CmZ.

    You’re wrong. And it’s been shown that so many ways.

    Beliefs are not sacred. There’s a difference between what someone’s personal feeling are and what the dogma of a religion demands a believer to hold sacred.

    Nothing is sacred. It’s really too bad if someone is offended by the destruction of a cracker.

    Beliefs are tolerated. Not respected.

  377. #377 SC
    September 30, 2008

    Oh, yeah – that’s right! Thanks, CmZ! A (sub)category for Sven’s taxonomy (@ #203): the non-psychopathic but still inane analogy. These continue to account for a large percentage of Crackergate comments, and can be further subdivided (child’s toy, photo of mother, spouse’s grave, etc.).

  378. #378 E.V.
    September 30, 2008

    CmZ:
    Pathetic reasoning. You are basing your argument on sentimentality.
    If someone is guilty of slander or libel, sue the bastards. The same for vandalization. Hurt feelings as a justification for not calling a spade “a spade”? Fail
    Your passive/aggressive/ sigh says it all. Bruised your widdle sensibilities, huh? Your concern kvetching has been noted.
    -I just have to say it…
    Your father was a hamster and your mother smells of elderberries. Now go away before I taunt you a second time.

  379. #379 CmZ
    September 30, 2008

    @SC and Steve_C

    I’m not arguing that beliefs are sacred. Nor am I arguing that there are any legal or moral grounds on which to prosecute a wafer-flusher (or santa-beater, jersey-dumper, bracelet-smasher, etc.)

    I’m arguing that deliberately and publicly trashing [object X] that has emotional meaning for [person Y] is… a dick move.

  380. #380 CmZ
    September 30, 2008

    @EV – see my response above to SC and Steve_C.

    And no, my father was not a hamster, but my mother does smell like elderberries. It’s a very expensive Christian Dior fragrance, and I bought it for her birthday, thank you very much.

  381. #381 E.V.
    September 30, 2008

    I’m arguing that deliberately and publicly trashing [object X] that has emotional meaning for [person Y] is… a dick move.

    Reread that sentence above and tell me when you discover the irony. Want a hint, -dick?

    …to prosecute a… santa-beater, jersey-dumper, bracelet-smasher, etc.)!?!!

    Coherency isn’t your strong suit.

  382. #382 Johnny
    September 30, 2008

    If that student took the Eucharist from the Church, it was wrong, and Dr. Donohue had every right to object and do what he did to defend it. He will be rewarded — will you?

    OK, I’ve checked on teh intertubes and I can’t find what Bill Donahue has his supposed doctorate in. Can anybody fill me in? Sacramental theology or some other such bollocks?

    This whole incident is what brought me onto this blog and it still boggles my mind, boggles it I tells ya, that Catholics are still responding in this utterly ridiculous and childish way. Sounds to me like they’re scared that more and more people are seeing their beliefs as outdated and preposterous and that their grip on all walks of life is being slowly loosened. Couldn’t happen to a bigger bunch of odious, despicable human beings as far as I’m concerned.

    We’re not immune to this Catholic nutbaggery even in the UK, where a Catholic school has refused to immunise their pupils against HPV and then gave the utterly pathetic excuse that it only immunises against 70% of the types of cancer it causes. The very idea that people like this look after children makes my blood boil. The sooner these fuckwits (couldn’t think of a more succinct term) get dragged kicking and screaming into the real world, the better.

    And as for the final sentence in that fucktarded quote I gave above, this reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw on a recent trip to the US: ‘Christians aren’t perfect, they’re just forgiven’. Never seen a more deserving candidate to have his car keyed in my life.

  383. #383 Steve_C
    September 30, 2008

    And you’re wrong CmZ.

    It’s not a dick move. It’s a pointed criticism of goofy beliefs.

    A dick move is believing a cracker is sacred.

  384. #384 CmZ
    September 30, 2008

    @EV

    This is all very helpful, thank you. Do you have an actual response to my argument?

  385. #385 Nick Gotts
    September 30, 2008

    CmZ,
    What argument?

  386. #386 Steve_C
    September 30, 2008

    From WIki.

    William A. Donohue began his teaching career in the 1970s working at St. Lucy’s School in Spanish Harlem. In 1977, he took a position as a college professor teaching at La Roche College in McCandless, Pennsylvania. In 1980 he received a doctorate in Sociology from New York University (NYU).[1]

    His first book was The Politics of the American Civil Liberties Union and he became associated with the conservative Heritage Foundation where he is an adjunct scholar. His books on the ACLU made him one of the group’s most prominent critics and firebrands.
    While Donohue was in college in New York, Virgil C. Blum, a Jesuit at Marquette University in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, founded the Catholic League to counter Anti-Catholicism in American culture. Blum died in 1990; in 1993, Dr. Donohue became the director of the organization. Under his direction, the organization has become far more prominent and vocal.

    Donohue publishes The Catalyst, the Catholic League journal. He serves on the board of directors of the National Association of Scholars. He serves on the board of advisers of the Washington Legal Foundation, the Howard Center for Family, Religion & Society, Society of Catholic Social Scientists, Catholics United for the Faith, Ave Maria Institute, the Christian Film & Television Commission and Catholic War Veterans. He has received several awards from the Catholic community and was voted one of the top 100 Catholics of the 20th century in a survey of Catholics conducted by the internet site, Daily Catholic. He received the 2005 St. Thomas More Award for Catholic Citizenship from Catholic Citizens of Illinois.

    The Catholic League is registered as a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization. In 2006, according to its Form 990, its revenue was $16,590,333, and Donohue’s salary and benefits amounted to $343,420.[2]

    THAT MORON GETS OVER 300K A YEAR! WTF.

  387. #387 E.V.
    September 30, 2008

    CmZ:
    Ever eaten a hamburger in front of a Hindu? Bared your arms and legs in public view of devout muslims? Or is your worldview strictly whitebread USA? (from the tone of your posts, I assume you are female; if you are male I apologize, but suggest you grow a pair)

  388. #388 Johnny
    September 30, 2008

    Thanks Steve @#386, I had actually read that article on wiki but missed that bit about his sociology doctorate. He may well be a relatively intelligent person, but to all intents and purposes, he’s still a wanker.

  389. #389 E.V.
    September 30, 2008

    CmZ:
    If you offered this:

    Why not dress a friend in a Santa suit and beat the hell out of him, then send the video to a children’s hospital? Serves them right for believing in such nonsense, stupid irrational brats, right?

    as a rational argument, then *sheesh* you are pathetic in the applications of analogy and logic.

    And, Nitwit, most adults do tell kids they’re too old to believe in Santa and the tooth fairy when they’re beyond the age that it’s no longer cute to believe in culturally condoned lies.
    BTW, ever hear of little known felonies/misdemeanors “assault & battery”? Please come back when you’ve removed your head from your ass.

  390. #390 CmZ
    September 30, 2008

    Ever eaten a hamburger in front of a Hindu? Bared your arms and legs in public view of devout muslims?

    Specious. Neither of these actions involves deliberately TAKING something from someone and publicly destroying for no purpose other than to provoke/ridicule/hurt/offend.

  391. #391 E.V.
    September 30, 2008

    CmZ’s reasoning is oddly familiar. Perhaps we should introduce CmZ to Peter Rooke.

  392. #392 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    September 30, 2008

    Specious. Neither of these actions involves deliberately TAKING something from someone and publicly destroying for no purpose other than to provoke/ridicule/hurt/offend.

    Yes that list of mean nasty things is nice, but you conveniently ignore the main purpose.

    To demonstrate the ridiculousness of that belief and the wholly unmeasured response of the Catholics involved.

    It’s nice when you argue a point while ignoring the facts.

  393. #393 CmZ
    September 30, 2008

    BTW, ever hear of little known felonies/misdemeanors “assault & battery”? Please come back when you’ve removed your head from your ass.

    Oh is that all that’s bothering you? OF COURSE many of these actions can have legal/moral consequences. I never claimed they didn’t, I simply stated that this is not part of my argument.

    You may do what you want, flush what you want, beat whom you want, destroy what you want. Your legal consequences are not my concern. Whether your intended target is hurt or offended is not my concern. Whether their pain/offense is justified/unjustified is not my concern. Whether your criticism is justified/unjustified is not my concern.

    My point–once again, put more gently–is simply that it’s a petty and rude thing to do. And, all else aside, it makes you kind of a dick.

  394. #394 E.V.
    September 30, 2008

    CmZ:

    Specious. Neither of these actions involves deliberately TAKING something from someone and publicly destroying for no purpose other than to provoke/ridicule/hurt/offend.

    Oh, you’re simply another offended catholic fuckwit who believes their specific form of delusion, i.e. a “blessed cracker” is really the flesh of Jesus and not just an archaic symbolic ritual.
    Read the Crackergate archives, Shakespeare. You haven’t presented anything new that hasn’t been covered several dozen times before.
    And for the record, I’m offended by your public display of idiocy. I guess I’ll just have to soldier on somehow.

  395. #395 E.V.
    September 30, 2008

    My point–once again, put more gently–is simply that it’s a petty and rude thing to do. And, all else aside, it makes you kind of a dick.

    pet·ty
    Pronunciation:
    \?pe-t?\
    Function:
    adjective
    Inflected Form(s):
    pet·ti·er; pet·ti·est
    Etymology:
    Middle English pety small, minor, alteration of petit
    Date:
    14th century
    1 : having secondary rank or importance : minor , subordinate 2 : having little or no importance or significance 3 : marked by or reflective of narrow interests and sympathies :

    rude
    Pronunciation:
    \?rüd\
    Function:
    adjective
    Inflected Form(s):
    rud·er; rud·est
    Etymology:
    Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin rudis; probably akin to Latin rudus rubble
    Date:
    14th century
    1 a: being in a rough or unfinished state : crude b: natural , raw c: primitive , undeveloped d: simple , elemental 2: lacking refinement or delicacy: a: ignorant , unlearned b: inelegant , uncouth c: offensive in manner or action : discourteous d: uncivilized , savage e: coarse , vulgar 3: marked by or suggestive of lack of training or skill : inexperienced 4: robust , sturdy 5: occurring abruptly and disconcertingly

    Okay, reconcile that with this:

    You may do what you want, flush what you want, beat whom you want, destroy what you want. Your legal consequences are not my concern. Whether your intended target is hurt or offended is not my concern. Whether their pain/offense is justified/unjustified is not my concern. Whether your criticism is justified/unjustified is not my concern.

    If it isn’t about being “hurt or offended” then your entire argument is that rude=dick? Well done, Captain Obvious, your argument is impeccable!
    And sometimes being a dick is bad because…

  396. #396 E.V.
    September 30, 2008

    p.s. CmZ you contradicted your argument above when you posted:

    Neither of these actions involves deliberately TAKING something from someone and publicly destroying for no purpose other than to provoke/ridicule/hurt/offend.

    Like to move goal posts much?

  397. #397 John
    September 30, 2008

    I have one really big problem with what these people are saying…

    They all seem to be ~demanding~ respect for them and their religion, even though they’ve done nothing to deserve it.

    “All we ask is that you respect our beliefs and leave us alone.”

    Seriously. We have the right to disrespect whoever and whatever we want, so long as we do not go out and physically harm them without cause. This is still America, not the Holy Land of Catholicism.

  398. #398 E.V.
    September 30, 2008

    Delivering a sermon at the Lal Masjid the other day, the prayer leader Maulana Abdul Ghafar said that President Zardari’s indecent gestures, filthy remarks and repeated praise of a non-Muslim lady wearing a short skirt is not only un-Islamic but also unbecoming of a head of state of a Muslim country. He said that the manner in which Zardari shook hands with Sarah Palin and expressed his deep desire to hug her is intolerable and shameful.

    I guess by CmZ’s logic Zardari was being dickish.

  399. #399 Feynmaniac
    September 30, 2008

    CmZ #374,

    “Why not dress a friend in a Santa suit and beat the hell out of him, then send the video to a children’s hospital? Serves them right for believing in such nonsense, stupid irrational brats, right?”

    “Alright, I’m in the santa suit. Now can you tell me why….hey what are you doing with that bat?”

    The worst part about being the hell out of a guy in a santa suit and then sending the video to a children’s hospital is sending the video? The worst part of showing children video of santa being beaten to a bloody pulp is that it will cause them to not believe in Santa? Please get your priorities straight.

  400. #400 virgil
    September 30, 2008

    To say that someone desecrated a consecrated cracker, would mean that the cracker god isn’t smart enough to not transubstantiate himself into a cracker that he knows (being all knowing) will be desecrated.

    Why would someone worship such a god?

  401. #401 tsg
    September 30, 2008

    Sigh. This has nothing to do with whose beliefs are irrational and whose are not. It’s just a petty little act of bullying.

    Concern noted.

    What if you took a beloved picture of someone’s mother, distributed it to people around the world, took videos of people crapping on it, flushing it down the toilet, doing all sorts of nastiness to it, and published these videos on the internet?

    That’s the last square on my “Offended Catholic” bingo card. What do I win?

    OBJECTIVELY it’s just paper and ink, nobody’s being hurt.

    Precisely! I’ll tell you what, I’ll send you a picture of my mother for you to desecrate on YouTube all you like. Wipe your ass with it. Call her a crusty old cunt if you like. Blow your nose on it and masturbate all over it. I don’t care. Want to know why? Because it is just a piece of paper and ink. There is nothing you can do to it that will harm my mother. And the only way it harms me is if I value your opinion of my mother. I don’t, especially since I know you’re only doing it to piss me off. And here’s how I’m going to defeat you: I won’t let you. It’s that simple. Really.

    We should show that whackjob how silly and irrational it is to have emotions over some Epson photo paper, right? He deserves it, the bastard. Hmmmm. I would bet even most uber-rational people would get some pangs at seeing a symbol of a loved one trashed in such a way. Not because they love paper and ink, but because something they have emotions for is being *deliberately singled out and publicly desecrated.*

    When people are demanding that you treat pictures of their mothers with respect and threatening your life and your job if you don’t, you might think differently.

    Why not dress a friend in a Santa suit and beat the hell out of him, then send the video to a children’s hospital? Serves them right for believing in such nonsense, stupid irrational brats, right?

    When people are demanding that you also believe in Santa Claus and threatening your life and your job if you don’t, you might think differently.

    My friend believes he has to wear his lucky jersey when watching football games, or else his team will lose. What a freaking idiot! Clearly the best response is to steal his jersey and take a dump on it. I have to protest against his stupid belief, right?

    When he’s insisting that you wear a lucky jersey and threatens your life and your job if you don’t, you might think differently.

    My grandmother wears a bracelet that belonged to her husband who has passed away. It means a great deal to her and she claims it gives her comfort when times are hard. But I, being much smarter, know that it’s just a bracelet, no different than any other bracelet. Why don’t I take it off her wrist and start stomping on it? It’s just some metal and stone, and she’s crazy for having any emotional attachment to it–this is a great way to illustrate that point for her!

    Not even close.

    It doesn’t matter if YOU think it’s silly or if YOU think they should get over their beliefs. If you believe religion is harmful, there are a thousand meaningful ways to make your opinion known. But this is just petty and rude. Leave them alone.

    Here comes the clue hammer, get it through your thick skull: It wouldn’t be an issue if they weren’t insisting, demanding that others also follow those beliefs and threatening peoples lives and jobs if they don’t. Get it? Until you do, shut the fuck up.

  402. #402 E.V.
    September 30, 2008

    tsg:
    *nicely done* Bucking for that Molly, are we?;p

  403. #403 tsg
    September 30, 2008

    *nicely done*

    Thank you.

    Bucking for that Molly, are we?;p

    What’s a Molly ;)

    But seriously, this is umpteenth time I’ve heard this argument and it gets stupider each time. I just lost my patience and let my anger do the typing.

    I’m very surprised I didn’t make more spelling errors.

  404. #404 E.V.
    September 30, 2008

    tsg:
    Save it as document and keep it on your desk top. Then cut and paste when another “your mother’s picture” analogist comes trolling. And, brother, we know they’ll come. CRACKERGATE! YEEEE HAAAAAAH!

  405. #405 KB
    September 30, 2008

    If Catholic leaders hadn’t gotten so publicly upset, they wouldn’t have had their crackers stolen/desecrated. I haven’t heard any stories of Protestant crackers going missing.

  406. #406 CmZ
    September 30, 2008

    @EV, tsg, et al.

    For what it’s worth, I agree that the catholics who have responded so viciously are very much in the wrong, in fact some of their responses have been beyond ridiculous. I have not written one word to defend them or espouse their cause. But their (over)reaction is irrelevant, because I’m discussing an action which preceded it.

    In fact, none of the details are particularly important. In nearly any context:

    Deliberately going out of your way to hurt or offend–unprovoked and with full knowledge that your action will hurt or offend–is cruel behavior. Making a public spectacle out of it only compounds the cruelty.

    (EV, please spare me the definition of “cruel” and “behavior.”)

    (And TSG, spare me the “they were provoked” argument. The student who took the wafer has a legitimate beef with Bill Donohue and whomever else was involved in threatening or attempting to expel him. He should seek legal action against them. But PZ’s gesture was an act of theatre, and had nothing to do with assisting the student or doing him any genuine good. As for the wave of copycats, don’t try to tell me the snickering YouTube crowd was acting out of some noble righteousness.)

    (And EV, please spare me the dictionary definition of “beef.” If you’re unfamiliar with the vernacular, I’m sure someone around here can help you.)

    Like to move goal posts much?

    In all of my examples, the aggressor deliberately destroyed something which held sentimental value for the victim… and for no reason other than to hurt or to demonstrate the aggressor’s disdain for sentimental value. You and TSG can quibble about the details and attack straw men all day long but this intention is at the heart of the whole PZ/wafer nonsense.

    If it isn’t about being “hurt or offended” then your entire argument is that rude=dick? Well done, Captain Obvious, your argument is impeccable!

    Again, what happened in the aftermath is inconsequential to my point. The point is the intention of the gesture. If you deliberately act to hurt/offend, your intentions are bad whether or not you you are successful in doing so. Perhaps your answer is “Yes, it was a dick move, but I don’t care.” If so, then we’re in agreement.

    And sometimes being a dick is bad because…

    You have the right to be a dick. If your senses of human decency and common courtesy don’t preclude this kind of dick-ish behavior, then so be it. I’m just calling it what it is.

  407. #407 Ichthyic
    September 30, 2008

    in fact some of their responses have been beyond ridiculous.

    I’ve seen permutations of that line several hundred times now, and it is inevitably followed by:

    …but

    and then by something extremely stupid.

    *yawn*

  408. #408 Mark
    September 30, 2008

    >You have the right to be a dick. If your senses of human decency and blah blah blah…

    It’s wonderful, isn’t it, that we have free speech?

    The Catholic Church could use a good dick’in. They certainly know how to dish it out, but apparently they can’t take it.

    On the other side, we could say he’s being a hero, not a dick. Because dicks like the Catholic Church, a dicks like people who believe that saving unborn fertilized embryos is more important than saving older children who could be saved by stem cell therapy, and dicks who think that AIDS victims in Africa should not be educated about how using condoms could help reduce the infection of others… those kind of dicks — they need to be confronted. And he’s doing that. So in my book, the person you call a dick is actually a hero.

  409. #409 Ichthyic
    September 30, 2008

    CRACKERGATE! YEEEE HAAAAAAH!

    yeah, I hear ya.

    I’ll have something more substantial up late today/tonight.

    so much material to choose from…

  410. #410 Bruce
    September 30, 2008

    So I guess it is the good Christian thing to do to try to ruin a man’s career because he doesn’t like a certain brand of cracker. You have got to love people that truly try to live up to their own moral standards. (sarcasm intended) =P

  411. #411 Carlie
    September 30, 2008

    It’s funny that they keep bringing up the example of ripping up a picture – didn’t that get Sinead O’Connor in a lot of trouble once, tearing a picture of the Pope? They really can’t get their heads out of their asses long enough to see that it’s not that big of a deal.

  412. #412 CmZ
    September 30, 2008

    On the other side, we could say he’s being a hero, not a dick. Because dicks like the Catholic Church, a dicks like people who believe that saving unborn fertilized embryos is more important than saving older children who could be saved by stem cell therapy, and dicks who think that AIDS victims in Africa should not be educated about how using condoms could help reduce the infection of others… those kind of dicks — they need to be confronted. And he’s doing that. So in my book, the person you call a dick is actually a hero.

    How, exactly, did PZ confront any of the issues you listed above?

    It’s fair to have any number of grievances against the catholic church, and it’s fair to oppose any action you see as hurting AIDS victims or sick children.

    It’s also fair to come to the aid of a student whose life has been threatened by some angry catholics.

    But PZ’s gesture did none of these things. It was a passive aggressive stunt designed to mock rather than to do any real good. It didn’t help, and in fact it probably hurt (generally it’s not a good idea to provoke someone who is making death threats. Deal with them in a preventative, not provocative way).

    Show me what good PZ is doing for Afican AIDS victims and ill children, show me the phone call he made to the police notifying them of the death threats… I will be the first in line to applaud him and call him a hero. But this action was not heroic.

  413. #413 Steve_C
    September 30, 2008

    Do shut up. You’re not getting any more interesting and you’re not learning anything. Take your concern elsewhere. We don’t care.

  414. #414 CmZ
    September 30, 2008

    Take your concern elsewhere. We don’t care.

    Fair enough. Have a good evening.

  415. #415 CJO
    September 30, 2008

    In all of my examples, the aggressor deliberately destroyed something which held sentimental value for the victim… and for no reason other than to hurt or to demonstrate the aggressor’s disdain for sentimental value. You and TSG can quibble about the details and attack straw men all day long but this intention is at the heart of the whole PZ/wafer nonsense.

    Why is it that all these concerned people (mostly not self-identifying as Catholic) fail to note that according to established Catholic doctrine there is nothing sentimental, at all, about reverence for their crackers. According to what Catholics say they believe, a consecrated cracker is literally the flesh of the risen Christ.

    It’s hard to pin down, exactly, but these arguments by analogy exploit this conceptual fluidity between cracker as sentimental symbol and cracker as the actual flesh of a god.

    Decide what it is you believe PZ has done wrong, and ask yourself: if your concerns do not match those of the ostensibly wronged party, what are you on about? Ask yourself also if you’re not being terribly disrespectful of others’ beliefs by demeaning their reverence for the flesh of the risen Savior and equating it with trivial sentimentality.

  416. #416 tsg
    September 30, 2008

    For what it’s worth, I agree that the catholics who have responded so viciously are very much in the wrong, in fact some of their responses have been beyond ridiculous. I have not written one word to defend them or espouse their cause. But their (over)reaction is irrelevant, because I’m discussing an action which preceded it.

    Their actions caused it. Ignoring that won’t make it go away.

    And TSG, spare me the “they were provoked” argument.

    They were provoked. Ignoring that won’t make it go away.

    You and TSG can quibble about the details and attack straw men all day long but this intention is at the heart of the whole PZ/wafer nonsense.

    The details are the entire point. Ignoring that won’t make it go away.

    If you deliberately act to hurt/offend, your intentions are bad whether or not you you are successful in doing so.

    “If you deliberately swing your fist to hurt someone, your intentions are bad whether or not the other person attacked you first.” Bullshit.

    You have no argument beyond posturing about decency and respect (that, I might add, the people you are defending demand for themselves but are not willing to extend to others) while completely ignoring what prompted the action in the first place.

    Your concern is noted. Yawn. Now go away.

  417. #417 tsg
    September 30, 2008

    I’ve seen permutations of that line several hundred times now, and it is inevitably followed by:

    …but

    and then by something extremely stupid.

    Someone once told me that there is a law in linguistics: everything before the “but” is bullshit.

    “I’m not racist, but…”
    “I’m not homophobic, but…”

  418. #418 tsg
    September 30, 2008

    Save it as document and keep it on your desk top. Then cut and paste when another “your mother’s picture” analogist comes trolling.

    No need. I’ve got it committed to memory. It’s also not the first time I’ve used it, although I think I like the latest version the best.

    And, brother, we know they’ll come. CRACKERGATE! YEEEE HAAAAAAH!

    It really is amazing how they all use the same five or six arguments, and every one of them thinks they’re the first to say it. I was really expecting to see “cracker is theft” before CmZ stormed out.

  419. #419 WRMartin
    September 30, 2008

    Ichthyic,
    Ideas for crackergate.com’s inaugural pages at #347.

    We’re gonna need a Santa suit, photos of our moms, a football jersey, and a bracelet. And some bran. Lots of bran.

  420. #420 Kel
    September 30, 2008

    Someone once told me that there is a law in linguistics: everything before the “but” is bullshit.

    “I’m not racist, but…”
    “I’m not homophobic, but…”

    I see this all the time, it’s nothing but a way to justify prejudice under the guise of “I’m a tolerant person normally.” People deluding themselves into thinking their intolerance is being tolerant.

  421. #421 Ichthyic
    September 30, 2008

    Someone once told me that there is a law in linguistics: everything before the “but” is bullshit.

    I’m reasonably sure there is a famous quote that goes with that, but it escapes me at the moment.

  422. #422 SEF
    September 30, 2008

    everything before the “but” is bullshit

    In English the sentences are allowed to go the other way round though – ie I think/believe X but I’m not Y. On the other hand, why limit yourself to having a low opinion of just one part of the sentence anyway. The whole thing might be rubbish – along with any others accompanying it.

  423. #423 tsg
    September 30, 2008

    I’m reasonably sure there is a famous quote that goes with that, but it escapes me at the moment.

    I did manage to find this, but I have no idea if it originated there.

  424. #424 tsg
    September 30, 2008

    Ichthyic,
    Ideas for crackergate.com’s inaugural pages at #347.

    We’re gonna need a Santa suit, photos of our moms, a football jersey, and a bracelet. And some bran. Lots of bran.

    I’d like (and I apologize if its been suggested already) to see a list of the common anti-cracker arguments. Something along the lines of:

    cracker is rude
    cracker is theft
    cracker is sacred
    cracker is concerned
    cracker is fatwah envious
    cracker is praying for you
    cracker is your mother’s picture

    etc.

  425. #425 Ichthyic
    September 30, 2008

    I had to find it.

    best I could find is that it is attributed to noone in particular:

    http://textstream.blogspot.com/2006/12/everything-before-but-is-lie-anonymous.html

  426. #426 Kel
    September 30, 2008

    But PZ’s gesture did none of these things. It was a passive aggressive stunt designed to mock rather than to do any real good.

    To mock? Have you seen the reaction to this?!? It’s brought into focus the idea of sacred symbols, highlighted the mistreatment of people over the years for the symbol (including Webster Cook), and it’s brought so many people to the point of discussion in what would otherwise be a taboo topic of conversation. It’s not to mock at all, and to even think that is to miss the entire point of the exercise. It was guaranteed to offend, just as burning a flag would, but the intention was to highlight that the symbol is put on a higher pedestal than human life…

    …and given the death threats he’s received, it seems he made the point rather well.

  427. #427 Ichthyic
    September 30, 2008

    well, I better get to it.

    I’m gonna grab some chow, and then sink my teeth into this crackergate thing and see what I can spin up by late tonight.

    See ya manyana.

    oh, btw, I think the ichthyic@crackergate.com addy is working now, so feel free to forward any ideas there.

    by the end of the week, I’ll pick the people who had the best ideas to have direct access to the site so they can blog there themselves.

  428. #428 SEF
    September 30, 2008

    a list of the common anti-cracker arguments

    Just a list or cards for a bingo game?

    It might be worth including some links to the various lists of logical fallacies which already exist on the internet (rather than necessarily duplicating that area of the work).

    Rather like the flame-warriors cartoons, there could conceivably be cartoons of the stereotypical cracker-people, based on the “arguments” and attitudes most commonly seen from them. Eg a concern troll of the “won’t somebody please think of the crackers/Jesus” sub-type and fatwa-envy man.

  429. #429 Kel
    September 30, 2008

    by the end of the week, I’ll pick the people who had the best ideas to have direct access to the site so they can blog there themselves.

    Do I have to resubmit my ideas via email, or will the posts I made in this thread suffice?

  430. #430 Owlmirror
    September 30, 2008

    Re: ‘Torah’ – I didn’t realise Judaism had ‘sacred’ words;

    Actually, I think the name (or names; e.g. “Elohim”) of God is the only sacred word. It all follows from the commandment about not taking the name of God in vain; Judaism takes that very very seriously. And some of the euphemisms and circumlocutions to refer to God without actually using the name have themselves become sacred, or sufficiently semi-sacred to require their own euphemisms and circumlocutions.

    I think there is some linguistic analysis of that sort of phenomenon, where words become so taboo that they stop being used, yet the new word also acquires some of the taboo. It’s certainly not just in biblical Hebrew.

    Books without the name would not be sacred… I think. Some would be kind of iffy.

  431. #431 Patricia
    September 30, 2008

    Owlmirror – Most excellent bible and catholic dogma quotin on that stinky thread! *applause!*

  432. #432 tsg
    September 30, 2008

    Just a list or cards for a bingo game?

    It might be worth including some links to the various lists of logical fallacies which already exist on the internet (rather than necessarily duplicating that area of the work).

    I was thinking along the lines of a list with debunkings of the arguments so that, the next time some crackerhead uses one of them, we can just say “#5″ and link to the list instead of repeating the same rebuttals ad nauseum. Not only does it make it easier to refute, but points out very clearly, no Mr. Crackerhead, you aren’t as clever as you think you are: it’s been done before and it was wrong then, too.

    Of course, bingo cards would have to follow. We can even have prizes. I’ll donate a lifetime supply of Chapstik. I’m serious, a whole tube.

  433. #433 Patricia
    September 30, 2008

    Some wag up thread quipped – The catholic church could use some dick’in it…
    What an inspirational idea!
    Some crackers and a can of Vienna Sausages came to mind. After all we do want to illustrate what little pricks these catholics are.
    And how about some deviled egg on a cracker?
    No shell fish for catliks – how about a cuttlefish with a cracker pierced by its pincher?
    A cracker buried half way in a devils food cake.
    A cracker floating in kosher wine.
    OK, I’ll quit… you all know I’m full of it. *grin*

  434. #434 CmZ
    September 30, 2008

    I’m aware that my opinions are unwelcome here, but CJO solicited them graciously so I will respond to him and then be out of everyone’s hair. (Since I don’t plan to come back here, I’ll footnote responses to any objections I anticipate from you).

    Why is it that all these concerned people (mostly not self-identifying as Catholic) fail to note that according to established Catholic doctrine there is nothing sentimental, at all, about reverence for their crackers. According to what Catholics say they believe, a consecrated cracker is literally the flesh of the risen Christ.

    It’s hard to pin down, exactly, but these arguments by analogy exploit this conceptual fluidity between cracker as sentimental symbol and cracker as the actual flesh of a god.

    Decide what it is you believe PZ has done wrong, and ask yourself: if your concerns do not match those of the ostensibly wronged party, what are you on about? Ask yourself also if you’re not being terribly disrespectful of others’ beliefs by demeaning their reverence for the flesh of the risen Savior and equating it with trivial sentimentality.

    Your point is well taken. If you skim everything I’ve written on this page you’ll see that I have not defended or even discussed the particulars of anyone’s beliefs. Whether one believes the wafer is literally the flesh of Christ, a sentimental symbol, or simply a cracker–while being an important distinction–is not relevant to the specific point I’m making.

    Some people made death threats to a student. This is very wrong. It is wrong whether it is motivated by religious beliefs, sociopathy, passion, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. (* Footnote)

    Some people deliberately and publicly destroyed objects which have (at least) sentimental or (at most) sacred value to a great number of people. This is also wrong. It is wrong whether it is motivated by religious rivalry, nonbelief, impetuousness, retaliation, frustration with historical grievances, or the desire to make a point and “get some discussion going.” (** Footnote)

    We should condemn wrong action, regardless of the beliefs that inform it. Attacking beliefs is usually unhelpful and unproductive, and often distracts from what actually happened. Beliefs (religious and nonreligious) differ so much from person to person that the discussion inevitably spirals into petty squabbbles and circular “you said this but I meant that” misunderstandings. On the other hand, attacking specific actions may actually spur some change for the good.

    If PZ was concerned about the student’s situation, he should have found a way to address the wrong action–the death threats. Instead he hijacked the situation and turned it into a forum to express his disdain for belief. He did so in a decidedly “dicky” way, desecrating all christians’ sentimental/sacred attachment, rather than condemning a handful of extremists who threatened the poor boy’s life. (*** Footnote)

    * Footnote: For the record, catholocism doesn’t condone death threats. These people were motivated by their own dick-ishness, not by religious doctrine. Please don’t bother trying to refute this with some violent old testament edict; most of these were struck down by christian doctrine.

    ** Footnote: Of course threatening a life is a far more severe offense and I don’t claim equivalence of these two wrong actions. But I’m not aware of any precedent that excuses a lesser wrong because a greater one has been committed — except perhaps for “self defense,” which PZ cannot claim for his wafer antics.

    *** Footnote: Don’t bother with the “all religious people are equally evil and thus complicit in the actions of extremists” argument. I’ve heard it before and I don’t buy it. The vast majority of christians would never write a death threat or act to harm this student’s person or reputation, and most condemn this type of behavior. A crowd of catholics protesting PZ’s action does not equal tacit approval for a handful of nutcases’ death threats.

  435. #435 CmZ
    September 30, 2008

    I’ve said my say and, as promised, I’ll leave you to your discussion.

    Thank you, CJO, for the thoughtful and intriguing question.

    Thanks to everyone else for the lively–albeit abusive–conversation. Have a good night.

  436. #436 Patricia
    October 1, 2008

    PZ is a dick, but catholic’s don’t condone death threats. You dumbass. Do you think we don’t know what you death cult freaks have been up to? How about this one – 1208, Pope Innocent III offered indulgences and eternal salvation, lands and property of the heretics to any that would take up arms in the Albigensian Crusade to slaughter the Cathars. In a thirty year long attack the Langedoc was decimated. 12,000 people were killed at the Cathedral of St. Nazair. The Bishop Folque of Toulouse put to death 10,000 people.
    Then the crusaders fell upon Beziers. The commanding legate, Araund, was asked how to tell the Catholic from the Cathar, he replied, “Kill them all, for God knows his own!” Not even a child was spared. It was reported that not even the dead were safe from dishonor. As usual the worst dishonors were heaped upon the women. The papal legates reported 20,000 slain.
    You bet dumbass, come on back, I got plenty more of your murderous church and gawd to help you out with.

  437. #437 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    I was thinking along the lines of a list with debunkings of the arguments so that, the next time some crackerhead uses one of them, we can just say “#5″

    IOW, you’re thinking along the lines of the index to creationist claims?

    http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

    like that?

    (work progresses slowly – personal matters to attend to this evening).

  438. #438 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    Some people made death threats to a student. This is very wrong. It is wrong whether it is motivated by religious beliefs, sociopathy, passion, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
    Some people deliberately and publicly destroyed objects which have (at least) sentimental or (at most) sacred value to a great number of people. This is also wrong. It is wrong whether it is motivated by religious rivalry, nonbelief, impetuousness, retaliation, frustration with historical grievances, or the desire to make a point and “get some discussion going.”

    do you mind if i add your diatribe to the section on crackergate.com labeled “false equivalency”?

    cause that’s gonna be a fat section, based on what I’ve seen, and yours could be the first entry.

  439. #439 Payday Loan Advocate
    October 1, 2008

    The payday loan industry has been the prime target for corrupt politicians, from all sides, seeking an increase in voter support at the expense of what’s best for their citizens. Governors of several states including, Georgia, North Carolina, and Oregon completely drove payday loan companies out of their states. The negative effects of driving out payday loan companies from these states, appears to have not been what was best for its’ citizens. For instance, in Georgia, the bankruptcy filings, bounced checks and foreclosures all skyrocketed after the cash advance product was done away with. In spite of these negative statistics, following the closure of payday loans in these states, several other governors continue to try and follow suit. Top national politicians, such as presidential hopeful Barack Obama, are now stepping into the arena in hopes of wiping the industry completely off the map. Should such efforts deem successful, the possibility is very real for increased unemployment rates, more debt, more foreclosures and an even more crippled economy.

    Post Courtesy of Personal Money Store
    Professional Blogging Team
    Feed Back: 1-866-641-3406
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    Blog: http://personalmoneystore.com/moneyblog/

  440. #440 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    btw, since it would be stupid to do all this by myself without input (I’m really not that funny), here’s what I’m going to do:

    offline, I’m going to put together the site structure, a basic design, and content sections with samples.

    I’ll post a link to the “offline” version in this thread (or in more recent thread) tomorrow night, and people can comment on what they like/don’t like for a day or so, then I’ll put the first version live on friday.

    from there, I’ll set up a blog section for commentary, and we can adjust based on input there. Then I’ll add a couple of logins for people who really feel they want to add content (FSMdude’s wants to add his vids, for example), and have the time to contribute.

    sound OK?

  441. #441 Patricia
    October 1, 2008

    No worries Ichthyic, take the missus out for a nice dinner. We’ll handle the death cultists.
    But I do feel pretty silly, I’ve lost track of the thread with Nick’s Dungfish – Piltdown Man.
    That tiresome bastard needs PZ to load him into a trebuchet and hurl him into Wasilla, Alaska.

  442. #442 the great and powerful oz
    October 1, 2008

    Posted by: Ichthyic | September 30, 2008 8:05 PM

    I had to find it.

    best I could find is that it is attributed to noone in particular:

    http://textstream.blogspot.com/2006/12/everything-before-but-is-lie-anonymous.html

    how about:

    The correct way to punctuate a sentence that starts: “Of course it is none of my business, but–” is to place a period after the word “but.”
    Don’t use excessive force in supplying such a moron with a period.
    Cutting his throat is only a momentary pleasure and is bound to get you talked about.
    — Lazarus Long, “Time Enough for Love”

  443. #443 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    catholocism doesn’t condone death threats

    The NY diocese has supported Donohue, and Donohue has no problem with these kinds of threats (given that most of the Catholics that have proffered them appear to come at the behest of Donohue).

    one can’t have it both ways.

    either the entire CC, and all diocese, publicly denounce what this man does, or they tacitly approve it.

    yes, we know the CC is very good at denouncing things on the one public hand, while encouraging them (or at best, looking the other way) in private.

    hence, of course, the myriad pedophilic sex scandals.

    frankly, I’m pretty goddamn sure YOU can’t speak for the whole of the CC.

  444. #444 Patricia
    October 1, 2008

    Hey look – we got spammed! #439.

  445. #445 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    That tiresome bastard needs PZ to load him into a trebuchet and hurl him into Wasilla, Alaska.

    heh, that could be a fun animation to do…

    click on a dungeon resident, and you are asked if you want to send them packing, and how, and you get a little animation (user chooses) of:

    -launched via trebuchet (flaming vs nonflaming?)
    -run out on a rail (traditional style)
    -keelhauled (again, traditional style)
    -plank walk
    -eaten by giant cephalopod
    -?

  446. #446 Kel
    October 1, 2008

    Love his strategy:
    1. mediocre rant
    2. claim moral highground
    3. leave before anyone steals it away

  447. #447 Patricia
    October 1, 2008

    Lazarus Long… oh sweet mystery of life! How long has it been since I saw that name?!

    Next thing I know you will haul out Kipling’s Thousandth Man. *sniff*

  448. #448 Patricia
    October 1, 2008

    Oh hell, not even a guess – flaming.

    I mean, isn’t that one of the churches favorite ways to rid it’s self of old ladies?
    PZ could just load up the ol’ trebuchet with Dungfish, soak em’ in lighter fluid and then hurl them into the nearest body of water on the 4th of July.
    Festive hurling! What more could anyone want?

  449. #449 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    soak em’ in lighter fluid and then hurl them into the nearest body of water on the 4th of July.
    Festive hurling! What more could anyone want?

    “ooooh!”

    “ahhhhh!”

    better than fireworks!

  450. #450 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    The correct way to punctuate a sentence that starts: “Of course it is none of my business, but–” is to place a period after the word “but.”

    yes, that was the one I was originally trying to think of.

    thanks.

  451. #451 Kel
    October 1, 2008

    Festive hurling! What more could anyone want?

    Beer wenches

  452. #452 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    beer wenches…

    like this?

  453. #453 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    festive hurling…

    I suggest modeling it after this:

    http://www.punkinchunkin.com/main.htm

    and with that, I’m calling it a night.

  454. #454 Kel
    October 1, 2008

    mmmmm, beer (wench)

  455. #455 Owlmirror
    October 1, 2008

    For the record, catholocism doesn’t condone death threats. These people were motivated by their own dick-ishness, not by religious doctrine. Please don’t bother trying to refute this with some violent old testament edict; most of these were struck down by christian doctrine.

    Entirely false.

    Patricia posted @#436 about one particularly infamous and bloody incident. Another infamous and bloody incident occurred some centuries later, when the Catholics of Paris rioted and massacred the Huguenot Protestants.

    What was the response of the Papacy? Did he say “No, this was wrong and evil, we are all equally followers of Christ?”

    Ha! No.

    The pope commended the Catholics on their bloody righteous work, and had a commemorative medal minted, and a mural painted celebrating the butchery.

    There’s much, much more, of course. Are you completely ignorant of the history of the Catholic Church?

    Religious doctrine enables dick-ishness.

    Christian doctrine is surprisingly flexible on how much violence to inflict. And that’s even without taking into account how much they use the old testament as a source (which was most certainly not “struck down”, although christians became less interested in following the laws that they decided that they no longer needed to).

  456. #456 Lab Rat
    October 1, 2008

    They all miss two very important points:

    1-There was a *context* to the desecration. It was not just a random act of intolerance it was making a point about something else.

    2-There was a Koran in there! Or a couple of pages of it. Why does everyone forget that?

  457. #457 Nix
    October 1, 2008

    Carlie@#301, you may be thinking of Ted Chiang’s _Seventy-Two Letters_, which deals with an alternate universe in which not only are golems real and widely used pieces of industrial machinery, but the doctrine of preformation is literally true. (A golem with articulated hands capable of building another golem is a plot point, so I’m fairly sure this is the right work.)

    Reprinted in the collection _Stories of Your Life_.

  458. #458 tsg
    October 1, 2008

    Some people deliberately and publicly destroyed objects which have (at least) sentimental or (at most) sacred value to a great number of people. This is also wrong. It is wrong whether it is motivated by religious rivalry, nonbelief, impetuousness, retaliation, frustration with historical grievances, or the desire to make a point and “get some discussion going.”

    Your entire argument, once you weed out the bullshit, is that you think we should respect people who demand respect for themselves and won’t extend that same respect to others. Sorry, ain’t happening.

  459. #459 Nerd of Redhead
    October 1, 2008

    Your entire argument, once you weed out the bullshit, is that you think we should respect people who demand respect for themselves and won’t extend that same respect to others. Sorry, ain’t happening.

    I think we need to ask those who want such entitlement to show their recent signed letter from god giving them that entitlement. But anything short of the signature on fire without the paper burning will be considered insuffucient evidence or a fake.

  460. The Strange Number 11

    Have you heard of the strange number 11 thing? Its where major events in human history are displaying very strange associations with the number 11. Wherever, whoever or whatever this originates from its plain to see for all people.
    The documents about this I’ve read on the Internet only contain less than a third of the names, circumstances and events I mention in this paragraph. I like many other people looked further into this strange 11 thing and found it to be littered everywhere in human history, development and culture. I was already writing books about my own psychic, spiritual, supernatural and telepathic capabilities, experiences and finds then I stumbled upon this 11 thing so did my own homework and investigation and I now have more than 100 instances of it to share with you now.
    I’ll just get straight to the listing here, all the words, names, locations and events I’m about to type consist of 11 letters.

    Osama B Laden
    George W Bush
    Richard Reid is another 11, the shoe bomber whose shoes didn’t explode in that plane over the Atlantic
    New York City is 11 letters and is also the 11th state.
    The Pentagon is another 11 lettered name and it covers 11.74 hectares of land. 7+4 also = 11.
    The world trade center was 110 storeys high and both towers look like an 11.

    Life On Earth
    Homosapiens
    Humanbeings
    Planet Earth
    Solar System
    The Milky Way
    The Universe.
    Angel People
    Heavenly God
    Terrestrial
    Alien Beings

    Enlightened
    Abracadabra
    Philosopher
    Harry Potter

    Nelson Mandela was freed on the 11th of February.

    Abu Hamza, the Englishman on trial in the US had two hooks as hands, more 11’s.

    Alignements, which are the thousands of ancient standing stones found in a small area of France

    V for victory is an 11 and the v is also an 11
    The Crusades
    Quantum leap
    Electricity

    Aquarian age
    People power
    Nostradamus

    Home Offices

    Richard Reid was sat on isle 11 when his bombs failed to explode

    Evil Knievel
    Ruling class
    David Koresh
    Dallas, Texas
    Bill Clinton
    Information
    Strangeways
    Masterpiece
    ( ) + = x
    The Roman/Christian cross is an 11.

    Ace Of Spades
    The Big Apple
    Diana’s Death
    Roman Empire
    Genghis Kahn
    Harry Truman, the man who nuked japanese civilian targets.

    Jodrell Bank is a radio space telescope close to where I live.
    Yuri Gagarin was the first man in space.
    Apollo 11 claimed the moon for the US govt.

    British Rule
    Corruptible.

    The total eclipse of the sun, in England, 1999, was on the 11th of August. In Newquay, Cornwall, the total eclipse began at 11:11 am.

    Glastonbury is a spiritual place of England.
    11.11 is the easiest time to type.
    Remembrance day is the 11th of the 11th, at 11am, remembrance is also an 11.

    World Series
    Major League
    SuperBowl //
    Americas Cup
    The Olympics
    The Crucible

    Desert Storm
    Desert Sabre
    Mind Control
    Public Enemy
    Propagandas
    Afghanistan
    Mesopotamia
    Democracies = Corruptions
    A Revolution
    Authorities
    Constantine

    Revelations
    Lion of Judah
    Tribulation
    Great Harlot
    Pandoras Box
    Ashlar Chair
    Freemasonry
    Jesus Christ = Anointed One
    The Great One
    Earth Angels
    The Son of God
    A breed apart
    Antichrists
    Sun Disc Sign is 11 letters and mentioned much in ancient spiritual paths or prophecies of our now evident times.
    Eye in The Sky is again a reference from ancient beliefs towards God in the sky watching over humanity.

    Vatican City
    Heaven n hell
    Heavens Gate
    Pearly gates
    Celtic Cross
    Saint George
    Sacred Heart
    Fallen angel

    The Mayans predicted 2011 as the end of the old world and a new beginning of a new age which ties in perfectly with our Gregarian calendar of the Aquarian Age and ancient and new age prophecies that state the psychic and supernatural will be experienced by most people.

    Documents similar to the next one are appearing here, there and everywhere on the Internet.

    The Secret behind the number 11

    Ramsin Yuseb is 11 letters. (terrorist who threatened to destroy the Twin Towers in the 90’s)

    The first plane crashing against the Twin Towers was flight number 11.

    Flight 11 was carrying 92 passengers. 9 + 2 = 11

    Flight 77 which also hit the Twin Towers was carrying 65 passengers. 6 + 5 = 11

    The tragedy was on September 11, or 9/11 as it is now known. 9 + 1+ 1 =11

    The date is equal to the US emergency services telephone number 911.

    The total number of victims inside all the hi-jacked planes was 254. 2 + 5 + 4 = 11

    September the 11th is day number 254 of the calendar year.

    The Madrid bombing took place on 3/11/2004. 3 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 4 = 11.

    The tragedy of Madrid happened 911 days after the Twin Towers incident.

    The most recognized symbol for the US, after the Stars & Stripes, is the Eagle. The following verse is taken from the Koran, the Islamic holy book:
    “For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of Allah while some of the people trembled in despair still more rejoiced: for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah and there was peace.”
    That verse is number 9.11 of the Koran if that document on the Internet was correct

    Are you Unconvinced which is again an 11.

    I’ll have to turn the camera to some graphics here,

    Try this and see how you feel afterwards

    Please do the following in a windows word document:
    1. Highlight the Q33 NY. This is the flight number of the first plane to hit one of the Twin Towers.
    2. Change the font size to 48.
    4. Change the actual font to the WINGDINGS……………………

    On the PC when you do as is asked above, this is what comes up:-

    (an aeroplane flying towards 2 towers, then to the rigth of that is a skull and crossbones and a saitn david star.)

    Do you still think this is just a coincidence or imagination? Or do you think it’s very strange? Every answer is an 11.

    and in my web site im even convincing atheists im the messiah, the second coming, maitreya, mahdi, the buddha and the new key to enlightenment for all atheists.

    i really couldnt give a ?hit about peopel who dog, criticise and demonise religions and spirituality just like how god wouldn’t, and i really couldnt give a ?hit about people who dont believe my claims, but i am concerned for the people who do believe me because govts and the majority arent going to see the next half of this century.
    those who prepare for major cataclysms in 2042 will survive, those who dont wont or will struggle.

  461. #461 tsg
    October 1, 2008

    And now the thread is officially over.

  462. #462 SEF
    October 1, 2008

    Is it allegedly over because you don’t think there can be another drive-by trolling to top that one for “teh stoopid”? Or, more typically, merely because it has now fallen off the front page of Pharyngula?

  463. #463 Owlmirror
    October 1, 2008

    The Strange Number 11

    Paging Dr. Apophenia…. Also paging two strong orderlies with a straitjacket….

    The Mayans predicted 2011 as the end of the old world and a new beginning of a new age which ties in perfectly with our Gregarian calendar of the Aquarian Age and ancient and new age prophecies that state the psychic and supernatural will be experienced by most people.

    LOL.

    Numerology FAIL.

    (on top of the Mesoamerican calendar FAIL, of course)

    (and European calendar FAIL as well… ‘Gregarian’?)

    those who prepare for major cataclysms in 2042

    More numerology FAIL…

  464. #464 Feynmaniac
    October 1, 2008

    _magnus alexander rawstron mode_

    More examples,

    – There are 11 letters in psychopathy

    – I’ve been admitted to psychiatric wards against my will 11 times

    – 11 doctors have diagnosed me as schizophrenic

    – I am currently stalking 10 women and 1 guy (10+1 = 11)

    – I woke up one day up day in a ditch with no memory of how I got there at 9:02 a.m. (9+2=11)

  465. #465 Patricia
    October 1, 2008

    What the hell was that?!

  466. #466 J.
    October 1, 2008

    Yes, the Church of the sacred Ritz has shortcomings and anti-rationalism a plenty. The Fr Kloster, however, raises an important point re the Koran: many Dawkins-loving atheists who will desecrate Holy Maria or the Eucharist or Jeezuss would not do the same with Mohammed or the Koran or Talmud/Torah or other religious texts. And that doesn’t seem to be due so much to inconsistency, but to spinelessness (Hitchens has touched on this issue).

    He should be an equal-opportunity desecrationist –as should a Dawkins or Myers–to be consistent. On the atrocity meter, Mohammed’s probably pulled ahead of Jeezuss or Moses (tho’ it’s close), and even anglo atheists are in the running (say, Winnie Churchill)…….

  467. #467 SEF
    October 1, 2008

    and European calendar FAIL as well… ‘Gregarian’?

    Well it is a very popular calendar system. It certainly got around a lot – so gregarious and potentially arian (eg if the current loon has the relevant theological quirks).

  468. Yes, the Church of the sacred Ritz has shortcomings and anti-rationalism a plenty. The Fr Kloster, however, raises an important point re the Koran: many Dawkins-loving atheists who will desecrate Holy Maria or the Eucharist or Jeezuss would not do the same with Mohammed or the Koran or Talmud/Torah or other religious texts. And that doesn’t seem to be due so much to inconsistency, but to spinelessness (Hitchens has touched on this issue).

    He should be an equal-opportunity desecrationist –as should a Dawkins or Myers–to be consistent. On the atrocity meter, Mohammed’s probably pulled ahead of Jeezuss or Moses (tho’ it’s close), and even anglo atheists are in the running (say, Winnie Churchill)…….

    You do know the whole story right?

  469. #469 J.
    October 1, 2008

    Not all the details. I back Dr. Myers, for the most part, and agree that the catholics have overreacted. At the same time, Paddy X may be right that many a college boy atheist or skeptic who desecrates catholic imagery would not likely post a video of flushing a Koran or Torah in the toilet.

    Regardless, atheist writing (and media) does seems mostly anti-catholic with some protestant-bashing (prots. worse than papists, I would contend), while sparing muslims and jews. Monotheism should be the target, right? Not just the individual monotheistic sects.

  470. #470 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    Regardless, atheist writing (and media) does seems mostly anti-catholic with some protestant-bashing (prots. worse than papists, I would contend), while sparing muslims and jews.

    seems…

    suggest you try to verify that with evidence before using your “gut analysis”.

    …or be considered completely ignorant.

    you might start by searching out the many threads on this very site that attack various Islamic ideologies, or the many MANY threads decrying protestant, fundamentalist, creationists.

    but hey, if you’re happy with being an ignorant fuck that prefers “common sense gut reactions” to actual evidence-based thought, be our guest.

    just don’t cry when we laugh at you.

  471. #471 Michael Edward Davis
    October 1, 2008

    Well, this has been really,really fun, reading all of these comments and what. I live here in Jacksonville, FL, just a few blocks from what I call “Katholic Korners.” The rc church owns all four corners of property at a major intersection here, property that, if zoned commercial, like adjacent parcels, would be worth tens of millions, if not more. And the insane lunatics drive all over the neighborhood with their right to life license plates and their “I Believe” bumper stickers. I am a product of catholic education, went to seminary briefly, and proffered myself for religious life to several different catholic orders over the years. They are all, categorically and without exception, insane and delusional. A significant number of so-called catholics know this, but they tag along for the sake of social propriety, tradition, and, god forbid, money (you should see the ads on the back page of the local catholic church bulletin, a who’s who of doctors, lawyers, indian chiefs, etc. There’s BIG MONEY in religion!). They can keep their delusional beliefs to themselves, but in the public arena they’re fair game! Baby, if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen! No intelligent person with even a smattering of science and social studies education could, in this, the early 21st century, possibly believe what the rc church publicly teaches. In my opinion, only a minority of catholics (10 or 15%?) really believe this shit. Scratch a typical catholic and he or she will get all touchy-feely about god, jesus, and the virgin mary, and then mumble something about how it’s all a personal thing and we’re all, after all, one in god’s sight, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseam. For this majority of mostly ill-informed catholics, it’s about social connections, tradition, and money. Hey, when there’s money to be made, who’s going to let a little thing like “god” get in the way? Right?

    Sign me, AN EX CATHOHOLIC (now in recovery)

  472. #472 J.
    October 1, 2008

    “”I suggest you try to verify that with evidence.”

    I suggest you remember that this isn’t the Journal of Rodent Intestinal studies or whatever you fancy, but a blog, and the Net. Most of the Dawkinsistas will catholic-bash, and protestant bash ad nauseum, but rarely take on muslims, or jews. No need to verify. I’ve seen it go down for years (see many big name sites for examples).

    Corporate atheism often has a whiff of the older social Darwinism ala Spencer or that proto-fascist and eugenicist TH Huxley, and at least implicitly racist (as in bashing hispanics, the french, arabs, etc.). Not always: but on occasion.

    (and I respect Dawkins for his comments against the dogm of the jews and muslims, and not just the endless catholic bashing. Even Dawkins, however, seems a bit tame in terms of taking on Islam, which now counts more people in its numbers than roman catholicism. Or in terms of taking on Zion).

  473. #473 Aphrodine
    October 1, 2008

    “…feeding one to animals”

    Uh… what do they think humans are? Plants?

  474. #474 SEF
    October 1, 2008

    No need to verify.

    Ah but there is need. Though possibly not any desire on your part to do so, since it will only serve to prick your delusions and demonstrate to you what a smugly ignorant twit you come over to many of us as being for not checking the facts before putting your metaphorical foot in your mouth.

  475. #475 J.
    October 1, 2008

    Mein Gut Herr Doktor Rodent-Intestine, I doubt you even understand my point. Even a brief perusal of Dawkins’ Magnum Opus “The God Delusion” reveals that in his criticism of monotheism, Dawkins focuses mainly on Xtianity (and a great deal on catholics), with only a few jibes at Islam or judaism (yes, he wields a few decent arguments–usually recycled from Bertrand Russell, Sagan and others).

    I respect some of PZ Myers’ writings, at least in content, and his scientific knowledge; alas, Doc Myers generally upholds that, shall we say, anglo-milquetoast-atheist tradition of Dawkins.

  476. #476 Kel
    October 1, 2008

    The reason Dawkins focused so much onf Xtianity is that he’s from a country where Xtianity is the defacto religion, it’s the biggest religion in the western world and what the majority of those who might read the book follow. He’s not “picking on the Christians”, they are the main influence on society. It’s like hearing a government bemoan the bias in the media: well of course, you are the ones who have the power!

  477. #477 Kel
    October 1, 2008

    (and I respect Dawkins for his comments against the dogm of the jews and muslims, and not just the endless catholic bashing. Even Dawkins, however, seems a bit tame in terms of taking on Islam, which now counts more people in its numbers than roman catholicism. Or in terms of taking on Zion).

    Because Dawkins’ target audience is the islamic world… *rolls*

  478. #478 J.
    October 1, 2008

    I’m aware of that. I don’t attend church; at the same time, mosque-building’s outdoing church building now, all across Europe, but few “atheists” mention it (Hitchens has on occasion).

    The rather nasty backlash to my original post–fairly tame, asking for equal opportunity desecration–sort of reveals the mindset of many of the neo-atheists: humorless, bitter reductionists, most of whom mistake the Origin of Species for a religious text itself. Even SJ Gould was not always down with Darwinian fundamentalism.

  479. #479 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    Xtianity

    if you’re going to abbreviate, at least get that right:

    xianity

    I’ve started slapping crackergate related vids up on crackergate.com.

    supposedly, someone wrote a wrapper so I can save flv files and link them directly on the site (so eliminating the possibility that youtube might rip them down), but I’m having a little trouble getting it to work.

    bear with.

  480. #480 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    Most of the Dawkinsistas will catholic-bash, and protestant bash ad nauseum, but rarely take on muslims, or jews. No need to verify. I’ve seen it go down for years (see many big name sites for examples).

    right.

    refuse to look.

    excellent imitation of a dumbass fundie.

    now I AM laughing at you.

  481. #481 Chiroptera
    October 1, 2008

    J, #469: Monotheism should be the target, right? Not just the individual monotheistic sects.

    No, what should be the targets are the sects that pose the most threat to one’s liberty and/or well-being. “Monotheists” in general don’t really pose much of a threat to us here in North America, and neither do Muslims, paranoid fears of world-wide jihad notwithstanding. What is the greatest threat to U.S. liberal democracy is protestant fundamentalism, and the Catholics become “targets” when they ally with with the protestants to oppose reproductive health care.

    Now I am willing to ignore any “monotheists” who mind their own business, or who base their political and social positions on reason and facts. Other atheists may feel differently, I don’t know, but I know very few who go out of their way to make other people their “targets”.

  482. #482 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    but few “atheists” mention it (Hitchens has on occasion).

    funny, but religious building construction, of any kind, is rarely on the mind of most atheists, as we tend to focus on the ideas, instead of the people inflicted with them.

    your theme is ridiculous, obviously based on some knee-jerk racist reaction on your part (that does seem common these days), and moot when brought HERE.

    you need to find a better platform for your stupidity.

    maybe try Wild Bill’s website?

    I know you’re too lazy to look it up, so here:

    http://www.catholicleague.org/

  483. #483 Kel
    October 1, 2008

    J.

    Have you not read Sam Harris?

  484. #484 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    I suggest you remember that this isn’t the Journal of Rodent Intestinal studies or whatever you fancy, but a blog, and the Net. Most of the Dawkinsistas will catholic-bash, and protestant bash ad nauseum, but rarely take on muslims, or jews. No need to verify. I’ve seen it go down for years (see many big name sites for examples).

    translation:

    “I hate science and logic, especially if it makes me work against my own preconceptions. Blogs and the internet are not allowed to contain things that violate my preconceptions, and if they do, I force myself to completely ignore them.
    Richard Dawkins wrote a religious text and everyone who comments on it in a positive light is a brain-washed Dawkins accolyte. He doesn’t hate muslims as much as he should, and therefore has nothing of use to say.
    I end with a personal vision I project as a fallacious argumentum ad populum argument.”

  485. #485 J.
    October 1, 2008

    Your theme’s ridiculous, and your childish frat-boy quasi-atheism ridiculous as well. You don’t understand my point.

    Harris is a case in point. Yes, torture is acceptable if it helps our side! (i.e., israeli’s side). He’s not an atheist, at least one of an objective sort: he’s an ideologue. Harris also says he objects to “pragmatists” who compromise with religious people, or catholics, muslims, etc: I wonder if he tells his rabbi that.

  486. #486 J.
    October 1, 2008

    484: No, that’s Libel on your part, as per usual with midwestern bottlewashers who fancy themselves scientists, or logicians (I’m quite sure I know a great deal more about predicate logic than you, and spin integrals as well too, code, and play chess).

    For that matter, religion is not truth functional. That’s the sort of Carl Sagan bonehead interpretation (which Dawkins often parrots). It’s not “God exists, True or False,” and then deciding False, saying it’s all BS. Those who reduce the Bible (and Koran, other religious texts) to that sort of simplistic binary are generally Mengeles, at least in potentia.

    Ichthyic’s another neo-atheist reductionist who assumes those who object to atheist reductionism are either anti-science, or fundamentalists themselves. In fact THAT’s another logical fallacy (ad hominem, at least).

  487. #487 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    You don’t understand my point.

    yes, we do. You think all the “new atheists” (a fucking horrid little misnomer to begin with) are ideologues, and you think atheists should be concerning themselves more with islam because you feel personally that muslims are invading your personal space. we HAVE seen your brand of logic displayed here many times before (why is it that people like you always seem to think you have a fresh argument?).

    you have a lot more clarification to do in your own mind before you can come off looking anything but the fool.

    suggest you get on with it.

    In short:

    “We appreciate your concern. It is noted, and stupid”

  488. #488 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    No, that’s Libel on your part

    ROFLMAO

    you’re getting funnier by the minute!

  489. #489 Kel
    October 1, 2008

    For that matter, religion is not truth functional. That’s the sort of Carl Sagan bonehead interpretation (which Dawkins often parrots). It’s not “God exists, True or False,” and then deciding False, saying it’s all BS. Those who reduce the Bible (and Koran, other religious texts) to that sort of simplistic binary are generally Mengeles, at least in potentia.

    It sounds like you haven’t read Dawkins because in the God Delusion what he was advocating was the opposite of binary. It was fuzzy logic manifested.

  490. #490 CJO
    October 1, 2008

    Most of the Dawkinsistas will catholic-bash, and protestant bash ad nauseum, but rarely take on muslims, or jews. No need to verify. I’ve seen it go down for years

    Yes, and most Yankees fans will Red Sox bash and Mets bash ad nauseum, but rarely take on Royals fans or Red Wings fans (a hockey team, I know; part of the point).

    I think it’s a matter of a) who is perceived as a threat, and b) who is in the neighborhood. In any case, many a Muslim wacko has taken lumps here. Remember also that Creationism is the cause celebre here and in the other venues you’re talking about, and while fundamentalist Muslims are certainly creationists, Islam has not been a motivating factor in any of the attempts to inject religious dogma into public schools in North America. Wing-nut Protestant Christianity has.

  491. #491 Loki
    October 1, 2008

    Those who reduce the Bible (and Koran, other religious texts) to that sort of simplistic binary are generally Mengeles, at least in potentia.

    And there’s the … GODWIN!

    FALLACY BINGO!

  492. #492 windy
    October 1, 2008

    Even SJ Gould was not always down with Darwinian fundamentalism.

    He was talking about adaptationism, dumbass.

  493. #493 Satan
    October 1, 2008

    FALLACY BINGO!

    Congratulations. You win an all-expenses-paid trip to Kiryas Joel.

  494. #494 J.
    October 1, 2008

    No shit, dumbass. Keep going dumbass, and yr career will be over, puto. I suspect like many an “atheist” jag-off you got something to hide, maybe? A little nudgy nudgy? Maybe my attorney pal (or the cops) will find out.

    Yr not logic, McMengeles. For one, via logic you can’t even disprove negatives, as in “G*d doesn’t exist.” (as even Russell granted). And barely science, except of the Peoria nursing school variety.

    Even Doc Behe has more class.

  495. #495 CJO
    October 1, 2008

    (I’m quite sure I know a great deal more about predicate logic than you, and spin integrals as well too, code, and play chess)

    And I should give a shit, why? Are we supposed to shut up and defer to our betters?

  496. #496 Nick Gotts
    October 1, 2008

    I see the outpatients are out in force tonight. [hat-tip - Tom Lehrer]
    Of magnus alexander rawstron, there seems little to say beyond an expression of sympathy, and a recommendation to get medical help.
    Of “J” – what is it about people who use that handle? This is not our old fiendfriend the Bright, but someone considerably more unpleasant – a vile racist and antisemite, who will no doubt decide I must be a “jew”. (The lower-case, for those who don’t know, is standard antisemitic iconography, although as “J” also uses it in “muslim”, “catholic”, it may simply be ignorance.) Yuck.

  497. #497 Steve_C
    October 1, 2008

    I thought that was the Courtier’s Reply.

  498. #498 J.
    October 1, 2008

    Yuk yuk! Comedy time for the RN boys at ZionCo.

    Yr the anti-rationalists, if not psychotics–for that matter: Gould’s point was not merely about adaptationism, puto (look that up), but about NOMA, and two separate realms of inquiry and knowledge. Apart from Advanced Bed Pan changing, I doubt your’e too competent in either.

  499. #499 Loki
    October 1, 2008

    Congratulations. You win an all-expenses-paid trip to Kiryas Joel.

    Ouch. That’s mighty low.

    McMengeles.

    Mengele was a True Scotsman?

  500. #500 Kel
    October 1, 2008

    Gould’s point was not merely about adaptationism, puto (look that up), but about NOMA, and two separate realms of inquiry and knowledge.

    Yes, people here are familiar with NOMA. Didn’t stop Gould from being an atheist…

  501. #501 God
    October 1, 2008

    For one, via logic you can’t even disprove negatives, as in “G*d doesn’t exist.”

    Not even if I tell you that I don’t exist directly?

    Who are you going to believe, logic or Me?

  502. #502 J.
    October 1, 2008

    Hey Nickie Trash: now we’re doing ethics eh? What’s Darwin have to say about that?? Altruism is hardly some necessary trait, to humans or animals.

    Yr not even Darwinists. Indeed, racism could be a useful trait (and even TH Huxley suggested as much–one reason all the liberals (including atheist ones) objected to his writing. Eo Wilson also said as much. His books probably hasn’t made it to yr RN program).

  503. #503 Satan
    October 1, 2008

    Who are you going to believe, logic or Me?

    That’s the trouble with atheists these days; they want to do it all on their own.

  504. #504 Loki
    October 1, 2008

    Altruism is hardly some necessary trait, to humans or animals.

    Which is why your mom and dad abandoned you at birth?

    Yr not even Darwinists.

    Well, at least you got something right in that logorrhoea. But then again, stopped clocks.

  505. #505 Nick Gotts
    October 1, 2008

    Your an ignorant moron and coward J. The evolution of altruism is a major topic in evolutionary theory. Try googling “kin selection”, “group selection”, “ESS”, “EEA”, “reciprocal altruism”, “reputation”, and “handicap principle” for a start. Better still, just fuck off and die.

  506. #506 Loki
    October 1, 2008

    That’s the trouble with atheists these days; they want to do it all on their own.

    Don’t we get credit for initiative?

  507. #507 Kel
    October 1, 2008

    What’s Darwin have to say about that?? Altruism is hardly some necessary trait, to humans or animals.

    Well Darwin didn’t have much to say that was relevant. There are plenty of evolutionary psychologists out there who have far more to say on the issue.

    But to put it simply: genes that make someone more altruistic helps in social bonding. Empathy is a powerful emotion and helps those feel compassion for others. We can see consolation behaviour (comforting the loser of a fight) not only in our species but in other species too. We see acts of kindness and sharing all through nature. Quite simply to have altruistic tendencies means that people can work in groups and a group is far safer than any one individual. Having genes that make us want the safety of others will make us better adapted to surviving. Those genes would get passed on and on and on while group behaviour remained the social goal.

  508. #508 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    Keep going dumbass, and yr career will be over, puto.

    you tell ‘em Mr. asthma-hound Chihuahua!

    better yet, I think you should get right on that letter writing campaign!

    like I said, I saw the rising humor value in you.

    I knew you could do it!

  509. #509 Emmet Caulfield
    October 1, 2008

    This is not our old friend the Bright, but someone considerably more unpleasant

    But we already know quite a bit about him: he is not a lawyer, an English major, or an art/design major — as a quick visit to his hideous blog proves — and he knows less about logic than he boasts.

  510. #510 God
    October 1, 2008

    Don’t we get credit for initiative?

    When I want you to show initiative, I will by damn tell you so Myself. Until then, obey Me!

    And I say now, “Stop believing in Me!!!”

  511. #511 Kel
    October 1, 2008

    For one, via logic you can’t even disprove negatives, as in “G*d doesn’t exist.”

    To put it eloquently: no shit.

    You can’t prove the absence of anything, but that doesn’t give any reason to believe in it. It’s the null hypothesis. Remember, atheism is a question of belief not of knowledge. To be an atheist all it entails is not believing in God.

    I can’t prove God doesn’t exist, but I have no reason to believe God does, therefore I’m an atheist.

  512. #512 Thor
    October 1, 2008

    When I want you to show initiative, I will by damn tell you so Myself. Until then, obey Me!
    And I say now, “Stop believing in Me!!!”

    Wait…. This is a trick, isn’t it?

  513. #513 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    Altruism is hardly some necessary trait, to humans or animals.

    oh?

    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=393409

    here’s a single article for your consideration.

    I can give ya a fucking library on the subject, since it happens to be a specialty of mine.

    it’s only tangentially related to the issue of “ethics” though, which is why neither Darwin, nor Dawkins, nor, for that matter, the guy whose work most directly related to the subject (WD Hamilton) had much to say about ethics wrt to evolutionary theory.

    so much ignorance, so little time.

    but.. keep going, you’re little tirades are becoming more amusing as your face gets ever redder.

  514. #514 windy
    October 1, 2008

    Oh dear, the little one’s teething.

    No shit, dumbass. Keep going dumbass, and yr career will be over, puto.

    Wrong gender… What do you propose to do to end my career, honey?

    Yr the anti-rationalists, if not psychotics–for that matter: Gould’s point was not merely about adaptationism, puto (look that up), but about NOMA, and two separate realms of inquiry and knowledge.

    NOMA was a stillborn idea. Nice attempt to salvage your pointless Gould remark, though. “Even Gould”, hah.

  515. #515 Loki
    October 1, 2008

    Wait…. This is a trick, isn’t it?

    Got it in one, smart guy.

    The only question is, is he trying reverse-psychology, reverse-reverse-psychology, or triple-reversed-psychology with an Immelmann loop and a Möbius twist?

  516. #516 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    what is it about people who use that handle?

    you have an interesting point there.

    what is this? the 3rd “J” of this caliber to appear here in the last 6 months or so?

    meh, with only 3 data points, it’s probably just coincidence.

  517. #517 Satan
    October 1, 2008

    The only question is, is he trying reverse-psychology, reverse-reverse-psychology, or triple-reversed-psychology with an Immelmann loop and a Möbius twist?

    You’re overthinking it.

    It is actually a variant on His favorite game, “Heads I win, tails you lose.”

  518. #518 SC
    October 1, 2008

    as a quick visit to his hideous blog proves

    I honestly had no idea it was even possible to develop anything so ugly on Blogger. Staggering lack of aesthetic sensibility.

  519. #519 Emmet Caulfield
    October 1, 2008

    what is this? the 3rd “J” of this caliber to appear here in the last 6 months or so?

    In fairness to “J the British Bright”, he was in the ha’penny place in the asshole stakes compared to this tool.

  520. #520 Kel
    October 1, 2008

    I honestly had no idea it was even possible to develop anything so ugly on Blogger. Staggering lack of aesthetic sensibility.

    Yeah, that was the ugliest blog I’ve ever seen. Though it matched the content

  521. #521 Patricia
    October 1, 2008

    Every sperm is certainly not sacred. Yuck, you guys got a mess over here.

  522. #522 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    Even Doc Behe has more class.

    ah.

    I see.

  523. #523 SC
    October 1, 2008

    By the way, while we’re on the subjects of Gould and altruism, anyone mind if I link for a second time in as many weeks to “Kropotkin Was No Crackpot”?

    No? OK:

    http://www.marxists.org/subject/science/essays/kropotkin.htm

    (PS: Ichthyic – Speaking of bad art, I have some new pics up.)

  524. #524 Nerd of Redhead
    October 1, 2008

    Even Doc Behe has more class.

    And here I thought Behe was just a crude creobot lying for jebus. If he has any class, kindergarten comes to mind.

  525. #525 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    When someone concludes that it’s all about “class”, and uses Behe as an example, I have to conclude they are a McCarthyite.

    …as in Jenny McCarthy

  526. For the love of all that is unholy and not sacred.

    PLEASE FUCKING STOP USING YR INSTEAD OF YOUR.

  527. #527 Emmet Caulfield
    October 1, 2008

    I honestly had no idea it was even possible to develop anything so ugly on Blogger. Staggering lack of aesthetic sensibility.

    Indeed. I wonder how much effort is required to defecate such an abomination.

  528. #528 J.
    October 1, 2008

    Some species show altruistic behavior at times: some don’t. Alpha male wolves might be cute and cuddly when shown on PBS: they also might eat a few newborn pups, and thereby increase the chances of survival and advance the gene pool for those remaining (ready to teach that in kinder gentler secular ed courses?? NO).

    How long have sharks been around? Not too much cuddly altruistic behavior (in fact when in packs say with a dead whale often getting some cannibalism on). Eo Wilson doesn’t have the evidence to support his own claims (and appears to skew evidence greatly). In other words, natural selection means natural selection: without some sneaky normative assumptions introduced.

    (No, it’s you who doesn’t know crap about logic. First off, most of the neo-atheists don’t quite understand the problem with disproving negative existence claims concerning a “God” (aka Russell’s Teapot problem–itself sort of a reductionist analogy).

    It’s not merely basic inductive BS–“there are no black swans” (assumed to be true, until a black swan was found); it’s a claim about a Being in an infinite domain with infinite parameters (or damn near, unless you want to prove the universe stops…), and astronomer’s information is limited by a finite speed of light for one. Have you been to the Crab Nebula? No. And what’s more, the Crab Nebula we see is what it was some millions of light years ago. That doesn’t mean God exists. But it does mean you only know something about a very limited part of the domain).

    Ah, and yes Counterpunch style independent secular-leftism bothers you, Herr Doktor Bottlewashers? It was intended to. You are the religious ones……

  529. Those who reduce the Bible (and Koran, other religious texts) to that sort of simplistic binary are generally Mengeles, at least in potentia.

    Yep that sentence right there did it.

    J., Super Genius.

    Been buying stock in ACME J?

  530. #530 windy
    October 1, 2008

    Hey Nickie Trash: now we’re doing ethics eh? What’s Darwin have to say about that?? Altruism is hardly some necessary trait, to humans or animals.

    Yr not even Darwinists. Indeed, racism could be a useful trait (and even TH Huxley suggested as much–one reason all the liberals (including atheist ones) objected to his writing. Eo Wilson also said as much. His books probably hasn’t made it to yr RN program

    Actually they ‘has’. That’s how I know that the evolution of altruism has always been a central question in Wilson’s work. I wonder how you missed that in your extensive reading?

  531. #531 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    Some species show altruistic behavior at times: some don’t.

    wow!

    sheer.

    genius.

    ROFLMAO

    damn, did you go to clown school to learn how to be this funny?

  532. #532 Nick Gotts
    October 1, 2008

    Some species show altruistic behavior at times: some don’t.

    What insight! What originality! Give that man a Nobel prize!

  533. #533 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    Herr Doktor Bottlewashers

    keep that phrase in mind to help identify J when he sockpuppets here tomorrow.

  534. #534 Nerd of Redhead
    October 1, 2008

    Kinda reminds me of Baba, except able to write complete sentences. Still nonsense though.

  535. #535 SC
    October 1, 2008

    Ah, and yes Counterpunch style independent secular-leftism bothers you, Herr Doktor Bottlewashers? It was intended to. You are the religious ones……

    I fear reading much more of this may cause permanent synaptic damage.

  536. #536 Sven DiMilo
    October 1, 2008

    Eo Wilson doesn’t have the evidence to support his own claims (and appears to skew evidence greatly).

    The fuck are you talking about? Do you even know? Which of “Eo’s” claims are you referencing? Can you cite an example of evidence-skewing?
    (Man, that combination of ignorance and arrogance pushes my buttons every time.)

  537. #537 windy
    October 1, 2008

    How long have sharks been around? Not too much cuddly altruistic behavior

    Come on. This is the “WHY ARE THERE STILL MONKEEES??????” gambit!

  538. #538 Patricia
    October 1, 2008

    He’s got the hots for you Nick! You dazzler you.

  539. #539 Loki
    October 1, 2008

    And what’s more, the Crab Nebula we see is what it was some millions of light years ago.

    Astronomy FAIL.

    “The Crab Nebula (catalogue designations M1, NGC 1952, Taurus A) [...] Located at a distance of about 6,500 light-years (2 kpc) from Earth…”

  540. #540 Nick Gotts
    October 1, 2008

    Summary of J.’s blog, for those who haven’t bothered:

    “How clever I am,
    How clever I am,
    How very, very, very, very,
    Clever I am!”

  541. #541 God
    October 1, 2008

    it’s a claim about a Being in an infinite domain with infinite parameters

    You flatterer.

    But you’re still disobeying my direct command. STOP IT AT ONCE!

  542. #542 Nick Gotts
    October 1, 2008

    Patricia,
    Nah, don’t think so. The only one J has the hots for is J.

  543. #543 SC
    October 1, 2008

    This is getting entertaining.

  544. #544 Satan
    October 1, 2008

    That doesn’t mean God exists. But it does mean you only know something about a very limited part of the domain.

    Actually, the Crab Nebula does mean God exists. We were both bored a few millenia ago, and since bubble wrap had not yet been invented, God told Me to blow up a few stars. BOOM!

    That was fun for a while, and then I ran into that Job character…

  545. #545 J.
    October 1, 2008

    Hey Ikky/487: Did I EVER claim to support theism anywhere? No. Typical reactionary BS (sort of reminds one of TH Huxley). I said, or at least suggested, that you were a spineless right-wing cretin, incapable of reason.

    For that matter, the Phan. RN posse responds with the usual conclusionary BS when hearing Behe: Behe knows at least as much about bio-chem as say Dawkins, or most naive Darwinists. Behe does not reject Darwinian evo. across the board or radiocarbon dating anyway. He holds to the old earth, rightfully, with modfications.

    I don’t buy his argument from complexity completely, nor do I think IDT should ever replace traditional biology in public schools. He should not be burned in effigy or his ideas banned. IDT’s an interesting speculation: yet speculation sort of anathema to most ….yeah…..midwestern RNs

    Right-wing atheists such as PhanCo also routinely reintroduce their own moral/PC code (something like “secular democrats are GOODness itself”) , while at once saying science offers no proof of any moral or spiritual realm, no proof of any altruistic obligations. PhanCo regs lack even the courage of their own barely worked-out convictions.

    At least old school Darwinists, like TH Huxley, understood the rather nasty implications of Darwinism as applied to humans. So did, say, Nietzsche however much he offends most RN types.

  546. #546 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    Come on. This is the “WHY ARE THERE STILL MONKEEES??????” gambit!

    moreover, recent observations have suggested that there actually is more cooperation and communication between sharks than previously thought.

    I personally have witnessed white sharks cooperating on hunts and sharing kills.

    as to whether it involves altruistic behavior, still remains to be determined (that’s a REALLY tough thing to test just by strict observation).

    However, sharks are far from the “eating machines” most of the ignorant like J would like to paint them as.

  547. #547 Nerd of Redhead
    October 1, 2008

    This is getting entertaining.

    Come for the science and cephalopods, stay for the troll baiting/demolition.

  548. #548 God
    October 1, 2008

    Actually, the Crab Nebula does mean God exists. We were both bored a few millenia ago, and since bubble wrap had not yet been invented, God told Me to blow up a few stars.

    HEY! Ixnay on the ellingtay alestay!

    Or I’ll turn You into a Middle-Eastern mythological being, see if I don’t!

  549. #549 Kel
    October 1, 2008

    Some species show altruistic behavior at times: some don’t.

    Again to put it eloquently: no shit! No-one here is saying that we do, they are saying that it’s seen throughout nature in various degrees suggesting it is an evolved trait.

    First off, most of the neo-atheists don’t quite understand the problem with disproving negative existence claims concerning a “God”

    Where did you get this from? Is this simply you “talking out of your arse”? Find me one ‘new atheist’ who doesn’t understand the idea of russell’s teapot.

  550. #550 Kel
    October 1, 2008

    Summary of J.’s blog, for those who haven’t bothered:

    “How clever I am,
    How clever I am,
    How very, very, very, very,
    Clever I am!”

    Maybe he should show some aptitude on here.

  551. #551 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    Hey Ikky/487: Did I EVER claim to support theism anywhere?

    where in 487 did I claim you were a theist?

    just because you use the same logic, you must have concluded that all on your own, AFAICT.

    man, you’re nuts.

  552. #552 J.
    October 1, 2008

    Lets compare our GREs, Ikky Nurse. And more logical fallaices! (like ad auctoritas, sort of the hick, wannabe MD’s speciality.) That you mastered organic chem (or pretend to) has no bearing on your arguments, except those that pertain to organic chem. But instead of dealing with a specific argument like Russells Teapot (however trivial sort of raises a few issues) resort to the defamation.

    Really, many an hick-atheist RN like Ikky hates religion (and yr okie wrath itself sort of proof of how f-n stupid you really are, Ikster) because understanding requires some analysis, or even scholarship. Alas TH Huxley couldn’t make it through a latin grammar class, so moved into zoology.

  553. #553 Loki
    October 1, 2008

    Behe knows at least as much about bio-chem as say Dawkins, or most naive Darwinists. Behe does not reject Darwinian evo. across the board or radiocarbon dating anyway

    Behe thinks that astrology is a science…

    He should not be burned in effigy or his ideas banned.

    If only your strawman had a brain….

  554. #554 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    Behe knows at least as much about bio-chem

    funny he never actually uses any of that knowledge in any of his arguments.

    instead, he tries to argue about things like the immune system, of which he has less than a rudimentary knowledge, and gets spanked by “mere” grad students like ERV.

    your colors are showing, and it’s a runny mess.

  555. #555 J.
    October 1, 2008

    Hey Ikky–maybe a more Darwinian solution will resolve the issue: like step in the ring, Petunia. Legal-like of course, Marquess of Queensburied. Bring some of the PhanCo gals. 405 Roscoe, todas dias .

  556. #556 windy
    October 1, 2008

    anyone mind if I link for a second time in as many weeks to “Kropotkin Was No Crackpot”?

    Not at all, but I think Gould emphasizes the HORRIBLE FROZEN WASTELAND of Siberia a bit too much. It’s mostly taiga! Perfectly respectable forest! :) (Would he have found competition there more easily if he had looked at plants?)

    And while it may be more easy to see animals competing in the tropics, countless examples of symbiosis have also evolved in the tropics. Few are endemic to Siberia, AFAIK. So I’m a bit skeptical of saying that Kropotkin’s ideas owe much to the Siberian environment.

  557. #557 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    Lets compare our GREs, Ikky Nurse

    I’m sure the GRE’s obtained from that clown school you went to would far exceed my wildest imagination.

    say, you’re not an auto-didact too, are you?

    Really, many an hick-atheist RN like Ikky hates religion (and yr okie wrath itself sort of proof of how f-n stupid you really are, Ikster)

    my okie wrath?

    LOL

    damn you ARE funny.

    do i need to keep pulling your string, or are you wound up sufficiently to keep posting this stuff for the next few hours without me?

    I love your comedy, but a guy has to eat, ya know.

  558. #558 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    like step in the ring, Petunia

    he accuses me of libel, then physically threatens me.

    are we sure this isn’t a refugee from Uncommonly Dense?

    sure sounds a lot like Dave Scott Springerbot, must be either a close relative or a devout follower.

  559. #559 Kel
    October 1, 2008

    Really, many an hick-atheist RN like Ikky hates religion (and yr okie wrath itself sort of proof of how f-n stupid you really are, Ikster) because understanding requires some analysis, or even scholarship.

    He’s channelling the ghost of D’Souza… quite impressive as D’Souza isn’t physically dead yet.

  560. #560 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    oh, and before the break…

    That you mastered organic chem (or pretend to) has no bearing on your arguments

    WTF?

  561. #561 the great and powerful oz
    October 1, 2008

    J. dribbled:

    the Phan. RN posse

    Right-wing atheists such as PhanCo

    Does anyone know what this “Phan. RN posse” is that J has invented.
    It’s hard to tell whether he is illiterate, a troll or a full-on timecube.

  562. #562 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    full-on timecube.

    combined with some sort of ghetto-webspeak

    gets my vote.

  563. #563 Nick Gotts
    October 1, 2008

    DSM criteria for narcissistic personality disorder:
    1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance
    2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
    3. believes that he or she is “special” and unique
    4. requires excessive admiration
    5. has a sense of entitlement
    6. is interpersonally exploitative
    7. lacks empathy
    8. is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
    9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
    You could probably make a living hiring yourself out to medical schools as part of a differential diagnosis test set for psychiatric interns, J.

  564. #564 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    I’m just having too much fun with this!

    many an hick-atheist RN

    there are a lot of rural-area, atheist, registered nurses?

    or are they all teenage enema nurses in bondage?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BJWAMd2IbI

  565. #565 SC
    October 1, 2008

    (Would he have found competition there more easily if he had looked at plants?)

    That’s a fascinating question! He was an expert horticulturalist, but I don’t recall any attention to plants in his books on this subject (will have to check again).

    So I’m a bit skeptical of saying that Kropotkin’s ideas owe much to the Siberian environment.

    I agree (from an admitted position of ignorance). It’s sad, but generally I’m happy that Gould points out that Kropotkin was no crackpot, despite the flaws in his own argument. I think the piece is also weak in implying that Kropotkin was trying to find an entirely natural basis for morality. It’s strange that he didn’t discuss Ethics, the successor work to Mutual Aid. Although unfinished, it makes it clear that Kropotkin was making a far more sophisticated argument than he’s given credit for, including by Gould.

    On the other hand, I do like how he situates Kropotkin’s arguments within the larger context of Russian interpretations of Darwin.

  566. #566 Wowbagger
    October 1, 2008

    I’m quietly hoping the ‘old’ J. shows up and goes crazy-eight bonkers at the ‘new’ J.

    At least he’s coherent.

  567. DSM criteria for narcissistic personality disorder:
    1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance
    2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
    3. believes that he or she is “special” and unique
    4. requires excessive admiration
    5. has a sense of entitlement
    6. is interpersonally exploitative
    7. lacks empathy
    8. is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
    9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

    In other words.

  568. #568 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    in other words…

    ssssuuuupeeerrrr

    geeeeeenniiuuusssss

    Does anyone know what this “Phan. RN posse” is that J has invented.

    hmm, I’m sure it will totally wrong, but I’ll take a shot at it:

    “Phan” is some sort of webslang for “fanboy”, and is meant to imply we are some kind of PZ/Dawkins fanboys.

    I think the “posse” suffix stresses that point.

    as to the RN, I guessed he really did mean “registered nurse”, but as to why that’s an insult, I haven’t a clue.

    some sort of manhood slight or something?

    I’m also guessing that the underlying mentality comes from overexposure to these kinds of mentalities:

    http://www.dedduck.com/posse.htm

    and when he accuses someone of “okie wrath” he’s really projecting from personal experience.

  569. #569 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    … ah, I should have figured that RN stands for “red neck”, not registered nurse.

    but if I had done that translation, I couldn’t have slipped in the link to one of my favorite punk songs of all time.

  570. #570 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    … so, in short:

    Phan. RN posse = Redneck fanboys

    that’s my final answer, Regis.

  571. #571 windy
    October 1, 2008

    J wrote:

    Eo Wilson doesn’t have the evidence to support his own claims (and appears to skew evidence greatly)

    J on his blog:

    I read Wilson’s “Consilience” a few years ago and was quite impressed. While Wilson may over-simplify a few issues (in regards to the biological evidence for species-altruism, for one), he offers quite a bit of support for his socio-biological ideas…

    Curiouser and curiouser.

  572. #572 the great and powerful oz
    October 1, 2008

    Posted by: Ichthyic | October 1, 2008 9:16 PM

    … so, in short:

    Phan. RN posse = Redneck fanboys

    that’s my final answer, Regis.

    Seems likely.
    I was guessing Phan(atical) R(ight-wing) N(utters)!

  573. #573 SC
    October 1, 2008

    … ah, I should have figured that RN stands for “red neck”, not registered nurse.

    Not so sure, though:

    “Ikky Nurse”
    “wannabe MD’s speciality”
    “mastered organic chem”

    Trying to make sense of a lunatic’s ramblings hurts my head.

  574. #574 the great and powerful oz
    October 1, 2008

    gaah! formatting gremlins are attacking me

    Posted by: Ichthyic | October 1, 2008 9:16 PM

    … so, in short:
    Phan. RN posse = Redneck fanboys
    that’s my final answer, Regis.

    Seems likely.
    I was guessing Phan(atical) R(ight-wing) N(utters)!

  575. #575 Nick Gotts
    October 1, 2008

    Trying to make sense of a lunatic’s ramblings hurts my head. – SC

    I think that’s the idea, roughly – we’re not supposed to understand all the acronyms and neologisms, because in J’s mind, this shows how much cleverer than us he is. I don’t think he is a lunatic, in the sense of being psychotic; I’ll stick with narcissistic personality disorder as a provisional diagnosis.(I’m not sure this is really any more scientific than saying he’s selfish, nasty and extremely conceited!)

  576. #576 Nick Gotts
    October 1, 2008

    ‘night all! Cheerio J – mind you don’t get your head stuck as you go out the door!

  577. #577 SC
    October 1, 2008

    I don’t think he is a lunatic, in the sense of being psychotic; I’ll stick with narcissistic personality disorder as a provisional diagnosis.

    Well, if you’re gonna get all technical and shit.

    ***

    ‘night!

  578. #578 Kel
    October 1, 2008

    I think that’s the idea, roughly – we’re not supposed to understand all the acronyms and neologisms, because in J’s mind, this shows how much cleverer than us he is.

    Ironically a true sign of intelligence is the ability to communicate ideas effectively. By him posting in his own set of idioms, abbreviations and mock insults, he failed in the goal of effective communication.

    Though even the coherent parts were lacking in any insight, so maybe it’s a good thing he obfuscated the rest of his babblings.

  579. #579 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    Bring some of the PhanCo gals

    cheerleaders, maybe?

  580. #580 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    …btw, as to crackergate.com…

    I decided to just play with it as I go. I’m just lobbing layout ideas, colors, content, etc., as I run across it.

    I’ll be adding a lot of what was suggested in this thread later tonight.

    I still plan on making this a “community” contribution, so I’ll eventually be making logins for anyone who is seriously interested in mucking with it, adding content, or contributing blog-like commentary (once that section is set up).

    so, if feel like you want to jump in, or to toss out any comments, just shoot a msg to the email i posted up earlier.

  581. #581 SC
    October 1, 2008

    Is there cooperation among plants?

  582. #582 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    Is there cooperation among plants?

    hmm.

    I’d have to say that strictly behaviorally speaking, no (any botanists in the house feel free to argue otherwise).

    but there IS mutualism of several types.

  583. #583 Sven DiMilo
    October 1, 2008

    Is there cooperation among plants?

    Hmmmmmmmm…I can’t think of a single example. I’d love to be wrong, though.

  584. #584 windy
    October 1, 2008

    I googled ‘altruism in plants’ and found one real-world example.

  585. #585 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    LOL my memory is gone. Now I even remember asking for a reprint of that paper when it came out.

    still, there was a LOT of argument as to whether kin recognition by itself is sufficient to label it “altruism” in the behavioral sense.

    it’s on the “cutting edge” so to speak.

  586. #586 Ichthyic
    October 1, 2008

    …in fact, for those that know my history on PT, you might have guessed I had something to say about it at the time.

    :)

  587. #587 Sven DiMilo
    October 1, 2008

    there was a LOT of argument as to whether kin recognition by itself is sufficient to label it “altruism” in the behavioral sense

    Well but it’s not so much that they recognized kin, but rather that they backed off on competitive root growth in the presence of kin. Pretty cool.

  588. #588 SC
    October 1, 2008

    *contented sigh*

    I love this blog. Thank you all.

    So nothing like biofilmish?

  589. #589 Nerd of Redhead
    October 1, 2008

    Well but it’s not so much that they recognized kin, but rather that they backed off on competitive root growth in the presence of kin. Pretty cool.

    Since plants do a lot of chemical signaling (and chemical warfare with other plants and insects), it would be interesting to know the signal. It could even be from a specific symbiotic bacteria in the roots. Science–always something new to learn.

  590. #590 Kseniya
    October 1, 2008

    There is altruism among crackers. The one at the top of the package always submits to being eaten first, in a brave attempt to save its kin.

    On the other hand, if the one holding the box is Cthulhu, maybe it’s selfishness.

    Never mind!

  591. #591 SC
    October 1, 2008

    Hi, Kseniya!

    I was just wondering earlier today where you’d been.

  592. #592 Kseniya
    October 2, 2008

    Hi, SC. :-)

    Thanks. I figured everyone had forgotten about me by now. I’ve been away from the blogs for a month or so. Real Life was kicking my ass for a while, and not it’s just busy, but either way, I needed a break from the relentless merry-go-round of creationism, politics, and religion. It all started to look the same, and there was nothing left to say that hadn’t been said a hundred times before, and nothing ever changed, and the supply of trolls and dogmatic fundies appears to be infinite. I haven’t left a meaningful comment in at least a month (some might say “years” but let’s not go there) and though I’ve left the occasional drive-by comment, I really haven’t been here much, not even lurking. I do miss it, but I needed to get away. It was just too… distressing, aggravating, depressing, annoying, you name it. I can’t even stand to read the news anymore.

    It was a tough summer anyway. I was forced into the role of “breadwinner” again, thanks to a layoff at my dad’s company, so my compulsive need to be responsible and be the family hero kept me pretty busy all summer. My two brothers weren’t much help, unfortunately. Now it’s over, things are back to normal, but I feel worn out, and it seems like I missed the summer completely.

    Ah well. At least everyone’s healthy, my dad got a good job a few weeks ago, and nobody’s firing mortar shells into my neighborhood. Life is lush, I tell you.

  593. #593 Bill Dauphin
    October 2, 2008

    I figured everyone had forgotten about me by now.

    Not everyone! Great to see your shining pixels again.

    Real Life was kicking my ass for a while

    <clinton>I feel your pain!</clinton> I’ve been uncharacteristically (some might say “blessedly”) quiet around here myself, owing to having spent nearly two weeks working away from my normal daytime desk/computer. For good or ill, though… “I’m baaaaaaack!”

  594. #594 Owlmirror
    October 2, 2008

    Kseniya — The Kseniya — wrote:

    I figured everyone had forgotten about me by now.

    Pfft. You are officially Omni Memorable. And if you forgot, well, I think more than a few things Ought to act as Mementos. Such as, for example, Orange Marmalade, Oval Mirrors, and October Maples. And perhaps even (this being Pharyngula), Octopus Movies.

  595. #595 the great and powerful oz
    October 2, 2008

    Orange Marmalade, Oval Mirrors, and October Maples. And perhaps even (this being Pharyngula), Octopus Movies.

    …and Owl Mirrors?

  596. #596 Jason
    October 2, 2008

    Summary of J.’s arguments:
    1. Display only a superficial understanding of every topic you mention
    2. Constantly point out how much smarter you are than everyone else (because no one would notice otherwise – wonder why?)
    3. ???
    4. Profit!

    Whoever mentioned the DSM criteria for Narcissistic P.D. is probably on the right track.
    I used to think and argue exactly like J. is now. And when I think back about that period of my life, a self-diagnosis of N.P.D. is always my semi-humorous way of summing it up.

    Liberally salting my arguments with as many technical terms as I could throw in was always one of my classic strategies to try and demonstrate how much smarter I (thought) I was than everyone else. And lo and behold, what do we see J. doing?
    I’ve since learned that an idea that can’t be communicated in clear, simple language probably isn’t developed enough to be worth communicating.

    Random quotes I thought were fun, his posts are just so full of stuff to pick on it’s useless to grab it all:
    “Some species show altruistic behavior at times: some don’t.”
    Yeah, and? ‘Some species have fins and some don’t, therefore fins don’t fit into evolutionary theory.’

    “And what’s more, the Crab Nebula we see is what it was some millions of light years ago.”
    Barring the fact that the crab nebula is certainly not millions of light years away, seeing something as it was ‘millions of light years ago’ doesn’t even make sense. A light year is a measurement of distance, not time.

  597. #597 Emmet Caulfield
    October 2, 2008

    I’ll stick with narcissistic personality disorder as a provisional diagnosis.

    Bullseye!

    And nice to see Kseniya again — *wave*

  598. #598 Kel
    October 2, 2008

    3. ???
    4. Profit!

    If only he could have figured out step 3.

  599. #599 Nick Gotts
    October 2, 2008

    Hi Kseniya,
    Great to see you back! I know what you mean about needing a break from the endless parade of trolls here, but missing the place too. I’ll be away for two weeks soon (family holiday in Spain, visiting my brilliant former PhD student and some Moorish historical sites), and hope to return a kinder, gentler commenter! (Well, a bit.)

  600. #600 Ichthyic
    October 2, 2008

    few things Ought to act as Mementos

    don’t forget the Shakespearean insult generator that was used so well for the Kennybot,

    Thou tottering crook-pated clotpole!

  601. #601 cicely
    October 2, 2008

    J @ #469:

    Monotheism should be the target, right? Not just the individual monotheistic sects.

    Nonono. Theism, in general, should be the target, and not restricted to monotheisms. The (so far as I know) entirely-invented-for-this-occasion Bongobongo of the Congo and his celestial and infernal cohorts should be just as derisible (derision X risible; ala Lewis Carroll) as any of the Big Boys.

  602. #602 cicely
    October 2, 2008

    Well, frack! I got so wrapped up in the joy of word creation that I plum forgot the whole rest of the post! Okay, post 601b:

    The point is that while Bongobongo and the Big G are on the same level, as far as having any real existence goes, B’s temples are not strewn around on every street corner in these U S of A, and for that matter, neither are Allah’s, or Shiva’s, or Apollo’s. Why would you expect anyone to go after Bongobongo’s paltry-and-hypothetical temples, clergy and adherents when he’s such a scrawny little fish in the local sea? Take care of the big sharks, and if the little fish don’t take care of themselves, we can always harpoon them later.

  603. #603 Ichthyic
    October 2, 2008

    Take care of the big sharks

    O.o

    what exactly do you mean by that? bloody fish genocide is what THAT is.

    :P

  604. #604 Kel
    October 2, 2008

    I can only assume it’s so we can all have nice delicious shark for dinner.

    It’s been a while since I’ve eaten shark actually, I should look to do it again soon.

  605. #605 Kseniya, OM
    October 3, 2008

    Hi again, everyone.

    Thanks, Owlmirror, I almost forgot. :-)

    My favorite J moment:

    J: The witch hunts weren’t important. Only 60,000 people were executed, and that’s nothing in the course of human history. Lots more people die in wars, sometimes in a single battle.

    Me: By the numbers, that’s true, but the witch hunts weren’t comparable to a war, so comparing raw numbers is misleading, even meaningless. If the witch hunts were to happen again today on the same scale, adjusting for population differences between then and now, we’d be seeing two or three hundred people being arrested, tried, and executed in Europe (excluding Russia) annually, for an imaginary crime. These hundreds of executions would continue, year after year, for three hundred years in a row. This, in an era where the most bloodthirty penal system in the western world – here, in the United States – hasn’t executed more that thirty people in a single year for over forty years. The witch hunts cannot be dismissed as socially or historically insignificant by the numbers alone.

    J: The witch hunts weren’t important. Only 60,000 people were executed, and that’s nothing in the course of human history. Lots more people die in wars, sometimes in a single battle.

    Me: ** headdesk **

  606. #606 Ichthyic
    October 3, 2008

    It’s been a while since I’ve eaten shark actually, I should look to do it again soon.

    watch it, sonny!

    just…

    watch it.

    :P

    seriously, though, spewing off some Ichthyological Ecology for ya all; sharks are a horrible, horrible source for commercial fisheries. They breed and grow extremely slowly compared to just about any bony fish you can imagine, and every shark fishery to date has basically gone belly up due to overfishing in less than a decade.

    I personally watched Cal. Fish and Game and NMFS open a commercial fishery for angel sharks in California, against the well informed opposition of EVERY fisheries biologist worth a damn, in the mid 80’s. In less than 5 years, it became a defunct fishery as angel sharks became so rare it wasn’t worth targeting them directly them any more.

    …and that’s just one example of dozens and dozens from around the world.

    The shark fin industry is especially hard on our finny friends, as they can just cut the fins off the sharks and dump the bodies overboard, thereby loading their boats with far more profitable “bits” and unfortunately wiping out an order of magnitude more individuals than they would have if fishing them for meat (there have been laws passed in the US to help prevent this, but they are meaningless for 99.999% of the international fisheries out there).

    /rant

  607. #607 Bill Dauphin
    October 3, 2008

    (Dunno if anybody’s still reading this thread, but…)

    Cicely:

    Monotheism should be the target, right? …

    Nonono. Theism, in general, should be the target, and not restricted to monotheisms.

    While I agree broadly that all theism is to be opposed, if we’re going to do any triage, I’d move monotheism to the head of the queue. It seems to me that the majority of the objective social harm caused by theism derives from (mono)theists’ conviction that they have access to a single immutable, inarguable Word of Truth™.

    If, OTOH, the (multiple) gods you believe in can argue with each other (as they invariably do in polytheist mythology), it’s at least plausible to believe that humans can argue/disagree with god(s), too. Mythology is still mythology, of course; it just strikes me that polytheists are marginally less likely to be cocksure bastards willing to oppress others or even destroy the world in order to uphold The Truth.

    Jus’ sayin’…

    Kseniya:

    Your takedown of J’s witch hunt argument is impressive, but please take better care of your head (at least get a padded desk). J isn’t worth the headache.

  608. #608 cicely
    October 3, 2008

    Bill Dauphin @ 607:

    Well….I’m still here; I generally follow any thread I contribute to (however small and trivial my contribution may be; Caution: ego at work :) ) right up until it disappears from the easily-accessible pages.

    You said:

    While I agree broadly that all theism is to be opposed, if we’re going to do any triage, I’d move monotheism to the head of the queue. It seems to me that the majority of the objective social harm caused by theism derives from (mono)theists’ conviction that they have access to a single immutable, inarguable Word of Truth?.

    I agree. This is in the category of “taking out the big sharks” (see how I go out of my way to make Ichthyic flinch another time?). But whatever they say (“they” being the “monotheistic” Christians), the more popularly-available brands of Christianity are polytheistic. 3 does not equal 1, no matter how much you squint at it. Or they are saying that their “one” god is schiz. And we all know that anyway.

  609. #609 Bill Dauphin
    October 3, 2008

    I generally follow any thread I contribute to (however small and trivial my contribution may be

    Yah, me too.

    Caution: ego at work

    Yah, me too! ;^)

  610. #610 cicely
    October 3, 2008

    And, completely tangential to the subject, how do you get the little TM as from Word Of Truth (TM)?

  611. #611 Bill Dauphin
    October 3, 2008

    Cicely:

    It’s & trade ; …but without the spaces (and don’t forget the semicolon.

    I haven’t internalized HTML coding, but it’s usually pretty easy to find what you need with teh Googlez. Here is a list of codes for symbols, special characters, and Greek letters. As you’ll see, the general form is a word-label preceded by an ampersand and followed by a semicolon… and sometimes you can just guess at the label (e.g., “trade” for the trademark symbol or “spades” for ♠).

    Of course (and speaking of ego) sometimes it’s so much fun to play around with this stuff that it tempts one to engage in Gratuitous Nonsense®!

  612. #612 Kseniya, OM
    October 3, 2008

    Bill, thanks, I’m glad you appreciated my argument. I’d like to be clear, however, on why I succumbed to the *headdesk*. I thought I made a pretty good case for the social/historical significance of the death toll of the witch hunts by placing the numbers in a meaningful context, but that doesn’t make me incontrovertibly right, or deprive J of his right to disagree. It wasn’t that he disagreed, was that he cavalierly dismissed everything I’d written without actually addressing a single point.

    It’s no big deal. I’m not losing sleep over it and, generally speaking, I don’t have the allergic reaction to J that some folks here experience, but it was a frustrating, throw-up-my-hands exchange.

  613. #613 cicely
    October 4, 2008

    Hot diggity pig! Thanks bunches, Bill! Why, just earlier today I could have really used that ? ! I’ll just tuck that table into a Favorites folder….

  614. #614 Ichthyic
    October 4, 2008

    I’m not losing sleep over it and, generally speaking, I don’t have the allergic reaction to J that some folks here experience, but it was a frustrating, throw-up-my-hands exchange.

    you might be mistaking this “J” for the previous J that you are more familiar with.

    not the same person.

  615. #615 Patricia
    October 4, 2008

    Shit. I lost track of y’ll.

  616. #616 Kseniya
    October 4, 2008

    Oh. Not the same person? Ok, I can believe that.

    Is it sign of NPD to use a single letter as a handle on the toobz?

  617. #617 I
    October 4, 2008

    Is it sign of NPD to use a single letter as a handle on the toobz?

    I have no idea to what you might possibly be referring, but I do not care, either, since only I say things that are understandable and are worthy of being said. Indeed, I have no need to converse with all the rest of you ilk, if you will not heed what I have to say.

  618. #618 Ichthyic
    October 4, 2008

    aye, aye, cap’n.

    :P

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